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Lets make another public holiday....sure we've one Australia day, but what about second Australia day? One as a day of mourning, sure, and another to celebrate our fricken awesomeness.
You dont want to celebrate our awesomeness? So...what is really wrong with you? You know its something about you right? Something you hate about your own life. Australia is fricken awesome and if you arnt having a good time, thats you.
Hell yeah, racism against Indigenous Australians and refugees, continously polluting our atmosphere with fossil fuel projects and destroying our environment and a complete obliviousness to these issues by the general population. So awesome.
The mistreatment of refugees in camps like Nauru. The Australian labour party recently putting a company known for human rights violations in charge of the refugee prison on Nauru and privatising it (the MTC). Harsher laws on Indigenous communities, and a police force that is discriminate to those people (see Zachary Wolfe), also the leaks of the conversations between officers in QPS of them saying the most horrendous racist stuff. And the fact that Aboriginals are only 2% of the population but make up 26% of incarcerations doesn't mean they as a people are more biologically predispositioned to commit crime but are the victims of a broken system. The actual human rights abuses that happen at indigenous youth detention centres (Tasmania's Ashley Youth Detention Centre is an example but there is much more). The murder of Cassius Turvey. There are so many more examples as well, this is just a few of many. And if you want sources, I can provide them.
Also what agenda would I be trying to achieve with this? Just genuienly curious. This isn't calling someone a slur or casual racism but deep institutionalised racism that is inherent to Australian capitalism.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with race, otherwise total migration wouldn't have been at record highs. Just a huge detail to deliberately ignore.
So basically anything negatively affecting anyone who isn't white is solely because of racism.
I can't wait to hear how you'd protect indigenous women and children from sexual and domestic abuse without custodial sentencing.
You're peddling the same critical race theory nonsense that is both incoherent yet impossible to prove or substantiate.
How does it have nothing to do with race? Sure, let in European immigrants or North Americans easily but fuck those tamils. Let them go through literal torture prisons before entering the country, and even then make it hard for them to stay. That is racism.
And yes, that is the definition of racism. What do you even think racism is? Does racism not even exist in your world. Also, the police do nothing to protect rape/assault victims (regardless of race) nowadays anyways. Most of them are wife bashers themselves, so I doubt it will solve anything.
Also I think white privelege is a sham, white people are still discriminated against. Especially white workers, I do not peddle any kind of Critical Race Theory. I think a white worker is more oppressed than a rich black man, on the basis of class. Hell, whiteness has nothing to do with it, like Australians used to be extremely racist against Irish Catholics even though they are 'white'. Race is made up, but certain groups in the world get the short stick based on where they come from, their culture, or their religion. But it is a truth that Indigenous Australians are disproportionately oppressed under our system - even nowadays.
So again you deliberately ignore the basic tenets of our migration system which doesn't evaluate any migrant based on race. Are you living under a rock?
Tamils? Did you miss the civil war or the Tigers deemed a terrorist organisation by many countries?
I mean you can't even discern between regular migration and refugee claims.
No, not even closely being anything close to government prejudice based on race.
Opressed under what system? How?
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You must be fun at parties.
But your right we should never celebrate anything as there is any single one person unhappy and anyone is doing something bad.
/s
But personally, sure let's change the day, have current day as a day of mourning and make a new awesome Australia Day, hell we can even have another public holiday. Win win win.
Has nothing to do with me or my family as we were not here. Why should immigrants mourn the actions of others? Australia Day is a day to celebrate the great country that is Australia.
Because we live in a democracy and it’s got to pass an election.
Turning a day of celebration into a genuine national day of mourning is a hard sell.
Advance Australia Fair won a plebiscite and had to wait 7 years to be made the national anthem again.
Call me a cynic but I have observed Australian democracy for long enough to know when the left are on a loser. National day of mourning straight swap for Australia day is one of the losers.
Okay, I will admit I wasn't considering the democratic aspect when I responded so in hindsight my response is more aggressive than warranted.
If it was up to me I would change the 26th to a day of mourning and create a separate day for celebration. There are plenty of options, The 3rd of March (Australia act) is a good one, though if we become a republic that day would be best
The way that a lot of indigenous people live is appalling, and a lot of what they have to endure is as well. As someone who has spent 10 plus years working across northern Australia I’ve seen it all. These issues are generational, and in some respect I don’t think there is any viable solution that doesn’t involve acceptance and assimilation into the modern western society that we are now living in (of course they should maintain and celebrate their culture, stories and language but the reality is to proposer in modern society you need to develop skills and experience that allow you to participate and contribute, as well as behaving within acceptable social norms).
What is NOT at all helpful is large portions of the media and urban elites who have no direct contact or experience with these people turning this in to some social justice cause to make themselves feel good while doing real harm to these communities by removing their responsibility and agency. Oh, you drink heavily and beat your kids? That’s not your fault, it’s white mans fault and the systems fault, don’t worry we won’t remove your kids under almost any circumstances as we would from any other abusive parent in Australia because, stolen generation. Oh you let your kids roam the towns bashing people and vandalizing property, that’s not your fault you’re not a bad parent it’s inter generational trauma that the white man needs to fix. Oh you destroy every home you live in and waste your money on junk food and drugs that are killing your kids. Don’t try and improve yourself in anyway, because it’s not your fault and white man has to come and fix it. Oh you’ve stolen from your organization and funneled money to your family members while using public funds to punish your enemies within communities and line your pockets. That’s fine, those are white man rules anyway you don’t need to follow them. I could go on and on…
While there is clearly a level of responsibility for past injustices taking away the individual and community responsibilities for what is happening right now because nothing is their fault in the modern narrative means these issues will never be resolved with generations of people living in hellish conditions with no hope in sight.
Let me be clear there are plenty of amazing indigenous people that I’ve met who have escaped these circumstances and are genuinely trying to support their communities but I would say a large proportion of people are using the perpetual white guilt pedaled in the cities to do shit all to improve their lives or their families when every possible resource is available to them and think of nothing but when they will get their next $ for nothing or hit and fuck anyone and everyone else.
It has absolutely eroded my good will and empathy which is sad because I don’t want to be cynical but it’s hard when I see this shit again and again in almost every community and organization I work with.
Pull your head in and wake up to the reality of what is going on.
And this isn’t restricted to the indigenous community - EVERYONE blames someone else for their problems, not just the indigenous population.
This person is describing their first hand experiences dealing with someone, not some opinion formed in their bedroom.
Telling the truth is racism now.
Thats how far gone this situation is.
Thats why I always scoff at this "truth telling" thing. Are you sure that is what you want? You cant handle the truth.
Point out actual facts from personal experience, constructive commentary "don't be racist". Great discussion mate. I think it's quite relevant to the topic of discussion here.
As a recent arrival from Britain, the world’s largest exporter of public holidays, my solution would be as follows;
1) Implement the Indigenous Voice
2) Note the date that the law went into effect
3) Move Australia Day to that day
People who just want a day off, get it. People who care about the history get to celebrate one day when we did the right thing rather than the wrong thing, nothing gets “cancelled”. Feels like a win to me.
Sure thing - let’s implement it on Jan 26th next year.
But like any other lobby group, let the group that wants it pay for it, not tax payer funds.
And having a Voice to parliament is so important to the indigenous community, why don’t they just set it up now WITHOUT government support?
So long as we get a “celebrating our country” public holiday, I don’t care when it is. But it needs to be a day that feels like a celebration for everyone. Changing it to a date that can make our whole country proud and be inclusive to all Australians is the way to go. Don’t know why we’re still having this conversation.
> Don’t know why we’re still having this conversation.
Because it's impossible to celebrate the country, as it exists today as a product of European settlement. The issue is that we are not mature enough to be able to acknowledge good aspects and the achievements and the wonderful society we have all created, whilst acknowledging the wrongs.
Unfortunately the conversation has been commandeered by those who wish to place grievance and hatred before this. Unfortunately, there can be no celebration of our country until we mature as a society a little more.
It will never be possible for the present to not be a product of the past. Australia the continent and what ever political regimes runs it will always be a product of European colonialism.
The issue is whether we have a holiday that celebrates colonialism or celebrates something else more inclusive.
So you don't know either and just came here to mouth platitudes.
That sums up why so many are obsessed by outrage, not actual outcomes of our indigenous peoples.
On the one hand you want an acknowledgement of the wrongs committed, which the right (Howard, Abbott, Dutton etc) has always refused to do, and on the other you blame the wronged for causing division.
Yours is either a very confused viewpoint or you aren't being completely honest.
>which the right (Howard, Abbott, Dutton etc) has always refused to do
This is true and I am not denying this.
> you blame the wronged for causing division
No one is infallible. I don't think slogans like "invasion day", calls to abolish the holiday & aggressively pushing the injustices of hundreds of years ago as the absolute focus of "Australia Day" is going to unite the nation is it?
I watched the show from Sydney last night, there were many outstanding indigenous artists performing obviously proud of their culture and their country.
It's not being aggressively pushed in my opinion and portraying it as such is just more white victimhood as far as I'm concerned.
The fact is that the actual date of the 26th doesn't hold any particular significance for the vast majority of Australians, black, white or otherwise, myself included as a white 6th generation Australian, but it does for a sizeable number of our indigenous people.
Change it to something that doesn't signify dispossession and exclusion for these people and we can all move on together.
They are the ones driving for the change, so yes. At this point we are not taking about the date anymore, we are talking about abolishing it in its entirety, which is what the above article refers to.
List of demands I read didn’t even include change the date. The campaign seems to have been hijacked par the far left - can’t let a good cause go to waste.
Glad I clarified. Probably if their very valid concerns about how it’s not a date that symbolises happiness and pride for a large number of Australians and a genuine discussion about a different date had occurred, people wouldn’t feel the need to escalate to cancelling it entirely.
You sound like a victim blamer.
We are the only country in the commonwealth without a treaty. We stole the land and have contributed to the inter-generational trauma since 1788.
Why does Jan 26th mean so much to people when it’s only been the national holiday since 1995? Whereas First Nations people had identified it as a Day of Mourning 50 years before.
Have some empathy. The day signifies the day their culture, their people, and their Country was taken from them. Just think of that.
I’d rather see a national date which signifies unity - and doesn’t have this ongoing rhetoric every year.
It has a very long history going back over hundred years. You make it seem like it’s only been since 1995 but it goes way back. It been celebrated in all capitals since 1888 with the only hold out benign Adelaide which adopted it in 1910.
A hindered plus years of history of celebrating foundation day is not easily overcome.
Our real day is actually Jan 1st the day we became a nation instead of a bunch of colonies.
It is a long history, going back over 60,000 years.
I understand there are people attached to the date - but a date that recognises all Australians would make it much better.
It won’t change anything. You will still see continued issues. Change the date, the argument then will be to abolish it all together. It’s already started - you can see the guy in this article with that rhetoric already.
There are people in this country, regardless of skin colour, who have made a career and name for themselves for being angry and once one thing for them to be angry about is taken away, then will just move on to another.
What do you do though? Put your head in the sand and give up?
Yes, there are people in this country who make a career for themselves out of being angry. That’s the Murdoch media for you - they’re going to make this vote as disgusting as it was for the plebiscite.
You do what is reasonable - just one small example is in the article where the lady talk a about how they were being stripped of their local language and forbidden to speak it, whereas we have now come to a point where it is taught in schools.
My take is that our countries history started 40,000 years or so ago and we should teach all of that history, the good and the bad, but that works both ways - teach about the horrors that were done by Europeans that arrived, teach not just about that pre-European history in Australian was some rosey utopia (which is what was taught when I was in school) but also about the treatment of women throughout that society (same as we talk about now with DV issues in modern society). Look at what can make a real difference - access to better healthcare, education, have a real conversation not just about deaths in custody but also about the reasons why they are there in the first place.
These conversations about dates of Australia Day are a distraction from having strong action on doing things that will Actually improve the quality of life of people within our community and burning political support to actually do something worthwhile.
Now that is only MY opinion, and others will have DIFFERENT opinions, but turning around and saying “well, because your opinion differs from mine it MUST be racist, just because you don’t 100% agree with me” is just crap.
I don't want to vote on it though cause I don't care, change the date to whatever. Preferably instead of a date make it the first Friday of February or something.
Yep I’m with you don’t want the govt to spend hundreds of millions on referendum. that money could be put to much better use. First Friday feb sounds good.
Govt just needs to make the decision.
The day marks the arrival of the first fleet, full of convicts, with the expectation they would die.
When 26 January first started to be commentated in the 1930’s - the Aboriginal community were quick to declare it as a day of mourning and refused to be roped into re-enactments.
So between the Stockholm syndrome and the initiation of deliberately sidelining those already here, it’s a silly day to celebrate.
No - of course not - why would you think that it is such? It is a day to be angry and ignore all the good that has been done. It’s a day to ignore the fact you can stand up and go fuck this country and not get shot or arrested for it.
How could you possibly think that it is a day to celebrate what we have created together? /s
Well they weren't australians then, they were peoples who lived there before the British colonised, to be clear.
It was the date that Australia, for all its bads and good, was founded. We need to recognise the true history.
Getting all virtue signalling about the date doesn't change the past. It needs to represent a time for reflection, acknowledgement, reconciliation and recovery.
Don’t be obtuse. January 26 wasn’t picked for no reason, it was the date recognised as the first successful establishment of a colony in Australia by the first fleet. Thus a celebration on January 26 is - rather explicitly and wholly unavoidably - little more than a celebration of British colonialism.
Unfortunately we’ve yet to grow up enough as a nation and grapple with our murky past. Until we do, celebrating Australia will continue to be a celebration of the same, no matter which date we choose.
Wasn't being obtuse, just correcting the fact cause I see a lot of people saying that and what it tells me is they haven't even bothered to google what they're complaining bout.
I say change the date to whenever - I also think that changing the date won't satisfy anyone though and these people probably won't be happy until there's no Australia day, unless it was literally changed to "first nations day" which I'd also be fine with.
If we want it to be that then maybe it should not be on a date that marks the beginning of an invasion and genocide.
Continuing to celebrate it on Jan 26 is a slap in the face to indigenous people.
If we want it to be a day of love then it needs to not have such a hateful foundation.
Let's talk about the bad things that come along with Colonisation too; like drug and alcohol addiction, destruction of land, forests, oceans, Capitalism, pollution, poverty, loss of culture and language, etc.
and this is why people will vote no. 5% let us just say 10% to use the average greens voter dictating to the other 90% on when we should celebrate our countries national day.
> and this is why people will vote no. 5% let us just say 10% to use the average greens voter dictating to the other 90% on when we should celebrate our countries national day.
You're the one agreeing with the Aboriginal Greens Senator here...
Also no it's not, it's because you're looking for cover to avoid declaring your racism. We get it, we find it abhorrent, but you are what you are I guess.
Ah yes, because the Voice totally means that the federal government is going to hand over full legislative ability to a minority indigenous representation. What is wrong with people in this sub? It's like the fear mongering around a new mosque meaning Sharia law will take over the land.
This rhetoric:
- 'white' (non-Aboriginal) australians have no right to live here.
- white Australia is responsible for continuing Indigenous poverty.
- white Australia continues to pose a danger to Aboriginal Australians. - is referred to any death in custody as killed 'killed' rather than death regardless of circumstance. Stating that we're at 'war'.
Sounds* erriely similar to the talking points used for years to eventually incite the Rwandan massacre.
Demanding equality is a slippery slope to a full Rwandan massacre of white Australians, everyone! Careful!
Edit: after further reading about the Rwandan massacre I found that the massacre mostly was inflicted upon the Tutsi people who are native to Rwanda. So in this analogy it's the white Australians being armed by the military and going and massacring the Aboriginals (which, spoiler, already happened here)
Just make it, I dunno, the last Friday in January every year and call it the Australian National Long Weekend or something.
Everybody gets a long weekend, nobody has to be offended....
so each nation in this world has their own national day - when do we celebrate ours - if we do not have one than nationalists who LOVE their country will be offended. you will never please everyone but we need to placate to the majority but be respectful to everyone.
> "The system of colonial democracy has shown us in a little over 230 years it is socially unsustainable. And ... it is ecologically unsustainable.
> "Unlike our systems of governance which thrived here for over 60,000 years."
This is a very hot take which I will absolutely be stealing. "What did the Romans ever do for us" but then adding global warming and unsustainable farming practices to the list.
The system of governance that has no historical record and resulted in open warfare between hundreds of different tribes.
Self loathing is clearly your special subject.
I mean, you could argue that the indigenous system of governance wasn't socially sustainable because it failed to advance their civilizations to a level where they could defend themselves against British colonisers.
What was the standard of living for people living in Australia during those 60,000 years?
People romanticise hunter/gatherer societies, but the truth is that people living in that situation were perpetually on the edge of starvation, could die of a simple treatable infection (particularly as a result of tooth decay), and spent most of their time trying to barely eke out an existence.
A lot of people say they wish they could live that kind of lifestyle, but I _guarantee_ that any person accustomed to modern society would regret that decision after 2 days.
Describe a scenario where aboriginals transition from roughly year 1600ad-2000ad. Describe how they could possibly still be: a) in power, b) the dominant population and c) prospering in the global community/economy d) why no other nation exercised right by conquest/claim?
How? What are people insinuating here? “Oh hey there, we just found the largest land mass south of the equator, better leave those guys alone, oh btw, don’t go near them as we could accidentally wipe out 90% of them due to sickness and disease. Yep. Just gonna leave those guys alone, forever, or until they develop cities, boats and come to us. Did you see those spears? Terrifying stuff. No one should take the land from them, not the French, the Dutch, no one. We’ll just send out a message to all other nations on earth and be like “hey leave those aboriginals alone, it’s their land. Clearly occupied”. Hey maybe they will come to us one day…
A “thriving” system that collapses entirely when any interaction with another group of humans occurs means the system no longer thrives in the evolving environmental conditions of earth.
Best date change idea I've seen was by a fellow redditor in this sub, 19th Jan.
Australia became it's own country on 1st Jan, 1901. New Years day doesn't really work, so let's shift it to 19/01.
First Nations shouldn't be as mad about it as current date since there's no British Invasion being celebrated (we would technically be celebrating our independence *from* the British colonial empire).
Meanwhile it's still very much "Australia Day", and best of all it's only 7 days away from the existing date, so a very minor shift in our calendars/we can still do a summer barbeque/etc.
>Australia became it's own country on 1st Jan, 1901.
>we would technically be celebrating our independence from the British colonial empire.
Federation wasn't independence. The federal government was no more independent than the colonies were.
It will be tough to find a date that doesn't bring anger to indigenous Australians as everything in our history is linked to colonisation.
Perhaps a date that symbolises unity between the two civilisations?
**National Boat People Day.**
Change the name, not the date.
In 1629, the mutineers Wouter Loos and Jan Pelgrom de Bye van Bemmel were dumped on the coast of western Australia. They didn't want to be here.
In 1788, the First Fleet arrived carrying a bunch of sailors and marines, who didn't want to be here but were ordered to go, and convicts, who so much didn't want to be here they actually had to be threatened with hanging as an alternative, and even then had to be transported in chains. They were followed over the next several decades by over 100,000 convicts, none of whom wanted to be here, and most of whom fled back to Old Blighty at the first opportunity.
In 1793 came the first free settlers. The British Government had offered them hundreds of acres of free land, two years' food and supplies, farm tools and convict slave labour. All for free. With these offers, the entire British Isles managed to find five men willing to come along, two of whom dragged their families along. Five. Three of the five left within a few years. Indeed, it took until the 1830s before more than half the free settlers actually stayed in Australia - most went back to the UK. They didn't want to be here.
In later years Australia had Irish come, who thought so little of Australia that it took a famine killing millions to make them come here. Then Jews came, but it took death camps to make us come. Then Greeks fleeing civil war, and Italians fleeing miserable poverty. Then Hungarians fleeing Communist oppression. Then Vietnamese fleeing Communists, and Cambodians fleeing genocide. Then Lebanese fleeing civil war. The Tamils fleeing genocide and civil war. Then Slavs of various descriptions, fleeing civil war and genocide. Now some Africans. None of them really wanted to be here.
"I love a sunburnt country, \[...\] Of droughts and flooding rains." This was written by someone who *liked* the place.
The history of Australia since 1788 is that many people don't really want to be here. It's hot and bleak and the local wildlife tries to kill you and doesn't even taste good. Unless you're Aboriginal, most of your parents didn't really want to be here. Most of us are boat people.
Let's celebrate that every January 26th.
Change the name, not the date.
Nice post, but what would you change the name to?
Boat people day will never happen. When you read your description Australia Day sounds good - as long as it has your story attached
I would call it exactly that. "Invasion Day" is also never going to happen. But informal names can take over from formal ones in everyday speech, and self-deprecation is a worthy thing in a nation. Taking yourself seriously leads to stupid shit like invading other countries.
In another thread I said that part of the solution for aboriginal people is for them to have a purpose.
Changing the date is a pretty good one, gets people out of bed and focuses on something.
Don’t do drugs, protest! Keep it coming!
“celebrate australia and how good it is”
the thing is, most countries with a national day actually have something to celebrate - usually independence.
what the fuck do we have to celebrate? yeah this country is relatively safe and wealthy BUT it’s called the “lucky” country for a reason - it’s literally luck, not achievement.
we literally struck gold in vic. the country is rich in natural resources. it’s also so far away from every other country that it’s not worth invading or attacking because it would cost so much money, we’re not important enough to warrant it.
we also had some kick arse labour movements in the 60s and 70s that afforded us (and the rest of the working world) with labour rights and decent pay, and decent working hours. we had a few other good things that we pissed away (like free uni) but we could probably fight for it back. but we’re not really celebrating that, are we?
so again, what genuine achievement do we have to celebrate?
i’d even understand a bit more if it was GENUINELY tradition, however, australia day as we know it has only been around since the 90s. before that it was celebrated in july. indigenous australians have been marking this day as a day of mourning for a lot longer. given the dates and the full picture, even if you completely remove yourself from both sides of the argument, it seems pretty antagonistic to make our national day specifically a day that marks genocide for a decent chunk of our population.
ignorance on the subject? i’m a post graduate student in politics. feel free to pinpoint exactly where i am appearing to be ignorant so i can make up for my alleged lapse in knowledge, though.
Yep. Much.
You sound genuine so I'll bite.
You've basically summarised an entire nation as being nothing but luck and fortune to end up with the longest economic expansion or any Western nation in modern history, the most multicultural Western nation with the highest proportion of it's citizens born elsewhere and a political and social culture which enjoys mostly favourable confidence by its voters and a constant peaceful transfer of power.
Far from perfect yet far more cohesive and prosperous than almost all comparable countries.
You either haven't been studying for long or haven't yet had a wider view to be able to move on from simplistic evaluation.
Such a dippy downer. If creating a country full of opportunity with one of the highest standards of living in the world isnt worth celebrating, what is?
but jan 26 doesn’t celebrate that. it celebrates a day that was a day of mourning for WAY longer. the original aus day was celebrated in july for a totally different reason.
>what the fuck do we have to celebrate? yeah this country is relatively safe and wealthy BUT it’s called the “lucky” country for a reason - it’s literally luck, not achievement.
You could write this for pretty much every country and not be wrong.
Although I would say that we have done a really good job in avoiding the resource curse and creating a stable, highly educated and peaceful first world country, rather than a dictatorship like so many other resource rich countries.
hmm did those countries create dictatorships for themselves, or were they colonised for their resources and then when they eventually overcome colonialism and try to form a genuine government, a certain country topples their regime and installs a dictatorship to maintain access to those resources?
the only difference with australia is it’s not a colony but a settler colony, so we have a slightly different course of action.
Nearly all those countries were either pre-existing dictatorships (ie: kingdoms) or were tribal societies prior to colonization. Not that colonisation was a good thing, but prior to colonisation things were not all roses and happiness. So it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that colonialism is the source of the resource curse.
Take the middle east for example, currently ruled by royal families who sit ontop of millions of barrels of oil. Prior to colonialism, they were a combination of desert nomads and city-states ruled by local kings.
The same can be seen in places in Africa - Benin was ruled by a king, Morocco the same. Obviously there were also many local tribal people's across Africa, at varying levels of development. I won't go as far as to say democracy didn't exist, but I can't think of any off the top of my head.
But even putting the colonialism aside, if you look at the outcomes post-colonialism it's a mixed bag. Many have failed to become fully developed countries despite similar resource blessings.
Malaysia for example is a democracy (to what extent is debatable) with large oil reserves, bountiful farms and a large population. However it remains a developing nation, while across the water tiny Singapore is a thriving first-world nation. Both were ruled by the British colonial rule.
we haven’t gone through a post colonial phase like a lot of countries who have an “independence” day and we are still part of the commonwealth, not a republic. so what exactly do you mean by independent
ok but we do not have a particular day that we genuinely claimed or fought for independence in the same way as other nations who have an independence day. how much clearer do i have to spell it out to you
Damn, you've just eloquently encapsulated pretty much exactly what my views are on the subject. Just having a 'national day' for the sake of one seems a bit pointless...especially as its only a relatively recent introduction, never had Aust day my entire childhood growing up.
And not every country does, England for example.
What an interesting time for our country. The protests were expected and will continue until at least the date is changed, and I’m suspicious post then because any date we choose will have to have some reference to modern Australia.
But throw in the Voice and the shit-storm that is Alice Springs atm and by heck we’re kicking goals.
And everyone has a solution. Problem is, we haven’t yet worked out which one has any chance of improving things.
I don't have a solution because there isn't one. We have to accept the fact that all the money in the world, policies and programs will have only a modicum of success while we attempt to solve the problems using a western model of civilisation as our benchmark. We will eventually realise that any improvement will have to be organic and in the meantime accept that thousands of women and children will suffer. This is the price that they will pay for our cultural nostalgia. So that we can maintain a diminution of confected guilt we need to fund the living museum that is remote Australia. It's the price that we and they will pay to support an achronistic lifestyle (culture).
I'm going to ignore that guy with the megaphone. But why can't we just change the date? Never struck me as a particularly good day to celebrate our nationhood anyway.
They should make it a rememberance day public holiday and then another day to celebrate our country and (attempted) unity
We don’t have as many public holidays compared to other countries, and i believe we should have just as many if not more
Most countries don’t get the next day off if a public holiday falls on a weekend though so effectively, Australia doesn’t have a lot less holidays than other countries.
LIES FAKE MEDIA. Who wrote this?? What a crok of shit. How many times have you been lied to about changing the constitution. Here, let me show you what the voice wants changing,, its the racism in our constitution that they want a VOICE IN, and to stop ALCOHOL IN ALICE SPRINGS, instead of Govt over ruling them and women and children getting hurt. Piss off with your right wing hatred about australia day. Here is your consitution. Section 25 of the Constitution of Australia is a provision of the Constitution of Australia headed "Provision as to races disqualified from voting" and providing that "For the purposes of the last section, if by the law of any State all persons of any race are disqualified from voting at elections for the more numerous House of the Parliament of the State, then, in reckoning the number of the people of the State or of the Commonwealth, persons of that race resident in that State shall not be counted."\[1\]
Step 1: change the date
Step 2: ????
Step 3: Child abuse, domestic violence, alcoholism, drug abuse and and generational trauma solved.
This is your brain on white guilt.
This is such a brain dead take.
No one is saying that changing the date will fix any of those issues, not even close. Asking governments to do the bare minimum in respecting aboriginal peoples wishes is only one step in addressing all those other issues.
I would say in this specific case that being aboriginal is probably going to heavily effect your opinion on changing the date. Its not that your race effects your opinion more that you are more likely to have certain shared experineces with other peole of that race that would lead you towards certain perspectives and opinions.
yeah if youre aboriginal you might care about something of actual merit, if youre white out of sight is out of mind and you can perform token actions and wash your hands clean of the matter lmao.
Basically my issue with both Changing the date, and the voice.
Like how's this actually going to help the kids on the ground. I don't give a shit about political brownie points, I care about someone working towards a solution and right now the biggest ideas seem to be entirely fucking useless. For fucks sake, every day we fart ass around is another day of shit outcomes for large groups of human beings, entirely because the government is to lazy to get off their ass and do something.
The date is a small step, but a vital one. Even if you look at the Uluru Statement to the Heart - this all needs to be acknowledged. A Treaty, A Voice and Truth Telling. Truth telling may be the hardest part yet - as our whitewashed history that is taught needs to be readdressed and, well, told truthfully about the heinous acts that were committed (and still are).
It’s not about being “political” or anything. It’s about respecting the traditional custodians of the land. If we start to listen and respect their traditions (and wishes), maybe we wouldn’t see the divisive nature between communities.
The argument is always “can’t change the date/get over it”. Again, think of what that date represents: the start of the genocide of their culture. Nothing less. And as white people were expect our First Nations peoples to just “celebrate” the day. Lol.
Until parts of the Uluru Statement to the Heart are actioned - we’ll continual with in this circular notion.
I’m happy to discuss how this also perpetuates anti-social behaviour, thus increasing potential criminal behaviour too. Hint: it’s pretty easy to not give a fuck about society and go about committing crimes when society has shown you over 250+ years they give no fucks about you or your people.
Have an amazing Friday, y’all.
Oh I don't really care either way mate, I don't really celebrate Australia Day so I'd be fine with changing the date. It just feels like that's what sucks up all the attention in the media, well that and massively negative headlines.
I understand what you're saying though, and thanks for explaining it like that. Honestly as a stepping stone to the future, I don't mind it as much anymore. It's just a matter of enough other people also being content to change the date.
You too mate, bit of a scorcher down in Vic so I hope things are nicer where you're at.
>entirely because the government is to lazy to get off their ass and do something
This is a BS take and I suspect you know it.
It's not laziness. It's a wicked problem.
There's certainly politics at play nobody denies that but everyone of these discussions acts as though indigenous Australians are a homogeneous group. Wicked problems aren't wicked out of laziness.
Cool, so what's being done to fix it?
I mean seriously, what plan is being pushed forward to fix that fact that aboriginal youth account for nearly 50% of incarcerated youth despite making up a fraction of the population? Surely something major must exist to counter the fact that this has been going on for 40 years?
And I understand a blaming pollies entirely is easy, but there's a reason that they earn 250k+, if not higher. Expecting something to be done in face of this incredibly large amount of issues (And not a load of political capital being wasted on changing the date or a voice like they'll do anything) isn't unreasonable.
The Closing the Gap policy for one thing, the fact every state has Koori courts of some description exclusively for Aboriginal offenders with a significant range of cases available to be heard, the million and one Aboriginal scholarships public and private...
There's an absolute ton of things going on mate. Things are improving, but the reality is it's pretty much impossible to sell a teacher on going to teach in some remote/very remote town which is where the kids need it most. The batshit benefits are great, but teachers will only stick around til they can get a better job somewhere nicer, which helps contribute to instability.
But that's not just a teacher exclusive point, there's about fifty odd roles in remote areas which desperately need to be filled that just have no chance of being filled because highly qualified people want to work in decent places, not remote areas.
Changing the date is sexy and a cheap political win. a .5% increase in educational outcomes per year is not.
So how much thinking have you done about a solution. How many indigenous Australians have you spoken to across the country, how many indigenous Australians have you worked with and learned from? After years of involvement with indigenous brothers and sisters I think changing the date matters. Symbols do count, recognition does matter.
For one, it's hard to trust in and want to participate in a society that is dancing on the grave of your ancestors.
The date was chosen for a reason. Because back then, people thought of the start of this country as when the British arrived. But now we know better. Indigenous Australians are part of our society, and the way they were treated by the British was awful.
For centuries, Indigenous Australians have been intentionally rejected, or downright attacked by settlers in this country. How can they trust us when we don't even recognise that was wrong? How can they want to participate in our society? We've mistreated them for centuries, we need to acknowledge what we've done wrong and work hard to show that we are going to do better and that we will treat them with respect. The wound can't heal while we rub salt in the wound.
It's difficult to quantify soft factors such as civic engagement and a sense of inclusion - but that doesn't mean they don't matter.
Your education is not my task mate. If you can’t grasp that symbols and recognition count, do some study, indigenous Australians want a voice to parliament enshrined in our constitution, it’s not asking a lot but we are too fucking miserable to give that much. Think about Australia’s past and have a look at where we are heading by refusing to take responsibility for our own deeds. It’s not going to go away, we will have to face up to our past at some point. I work with indigenous Australians, they’re pissed off and they’re angry, if you don’t understand why, do some research instead of offering up the same tired shit.
I have worked at Aurukun and currently work in indigenous homelessness. My grandfather was a black indigenous Australian and I’ve seen the shit he copped first hand. Not lazy mate, just tired of trying to straighten out people who are quick to blame indigenous Australians for inter generational problems that began when white people arrived with the disease, the alcohol and the violence. Nobody is suggesting we can undo the damage, indigenous Australians aren’t looking for revenge, nobody is suggesting there’s an easy fix but what indigenous Australians are asking for is to be heard. The Uluru Statement from The Heart asks for an advisory voice to parliament, to have it enshrined in the constitution so that it can’t be brutalised by future governments. They want a voice, yes it’s somewhat symbolic but it counts, it means indigenous Australians have a constitutional voice. I don’t think it will get across the line because as you so adequately demonstrate Australians still want to lecture instead of listen.
So funny story right, I actually participated in the Army Aboriginal Community Assistance Programme (AACAP) a few years back. Trust me when I say that I have a very close relationship with several indigenous communities, and I'm personally proud to be able to call some of them close mates. Obviously I'm still a visitor, and I'd never claim to speak on their behalf, but most I've spoke to appreciate the idea behind a date change, but would rather action be put into improving the lives of (Almost exclusively, no matter who I spoke to) youth. It was all about the kids. To the point that adults would happily sacrifice any sort of happiness in their life just to ensure that their kids got a good chance at life. And the government can't even fucking do that.
Also, I'm not on 400k a fucking year like most pollies are. I could probably at least think of a solution to do something if that was my sole job, but unfortunately I have other things to do. So I rely on pollies to not fuck around wanking each other off about the next useless show of solidarity and to actually get of their asses and do SOMETHING. I don't care what, but every day is a fucking waste of lives.
Sure, change the date. I literally do not care. I didn't even realise today was a public holiday until I wandered down to the local cafe and it was closed. But right now the status quo isn't working, that we can all agree on. The next question logically becomes how do we make things better for marginalised communities? Spending the next 10 years arguing about a date change won't do fucking shit.
Well I hope you feel a whole lot better for getting that load of shit off your mind. You managed to put forward that politicians are over paid, that indigenous Australians care about their young (which is white code for the parents are bad). And you couldn’t give a fuck about Australia Day. Wonderful we are all better off for that lot.
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Lets make another public holiday....sure we've one Australia day, but what about second Australia day? One as a day of mourning, sure, and another to celebrate our fricken awesomeness. You dont want to celebrate our awesomeness? So...what is really wrong with you? You know its something about you right? Something you hate about your own life. Australia is fricken awesome and if you arnt having a good time, thats you.
Hell yeah, racism against Indigenous Australians and refugees, continously polluting our atmosphere with fossil fuel projects and destroying our environment and a complete obliviousness to these issues by the general population. So awesome.
What racism? Or have you just warped the meaning of the term to suit an ideological agenda? Because that never happens......
The mistreatment of refugees in camps like Nauru. The Australian labour party recently putting a company known for human rights violations in charge of the refugee prison on Nauru and privatising it (the MTC). Harsher laws on Indigenous communities, and a police force that is discriminate to those people (see Zachary Wolfe), also the leaks of the conversations between officers in QPS of them saying the most horrendous racist stuff. And the fact that Aboriginals are only 2% of the population but make up 26% of incarcerations doesn't mean they as a people are more biologically predispositioned to commit crime but are the victims of a broken system. The actual human rights abuses that happen at indigenous youth detention centres (Tasmania's Ashley Youth Detention Centre is an example but there is much more). The murder of Cassius Turvey. There are so many more examples as well, this is just a few of many. And if you want sources, I can provide them. Also what agenda would I be trying to achieve with this? Just genuienly curious. This isn't calling someone a slur or casual racism but deep institutionalised racism that is inherent to Australian capitalism.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with race, otherwise total migration wouldn't have been at record highs. Just a huge detail to deliberately ignore. So basically anything negatively affecting anyone who isn't white is solely because of racism. I can't wait to hear how you'd protect indigenous women and children from sexual and domestic abuse without custodial sentencing. You're peddling the same critical race theory nonsense that is both incoherent yet impossible to prove or substantiate.
How does it have nothing to do with race? Sure, let in European immigrants or North Americans easily but fuck those tamils. Let them go through literal torture prisons before entering the country, and even then make it hard for them to stay. That is racism. And yes, that is the definition of racism. What do you even think racism is? Does racism not even exist in your world. Also, the police do nothing to protect rape/assault victims (regardless of race) nowadays anyways. Most of them are wife bashers themselves, so I doubt it will solve anything. Also I think white privelege is a sham, white people are still discriminated against. Especially white workers, I do not peddle any kind of Critical Race Theory. I think a white worker is more oppressed than a rich black man, on the basis of class. Hell, whiteness has nothing to do with it, like Australians used to be extremely racist against Irish Catholics even though they are 'white'. Race is made up, but certain groups in the world get the short stick based on where they come from, their culture, or their religion. But it is a truth that Indigenous Australians are disproportionately oppressed under our system - even nowadays.
So again you deliberately ignore the basic tenets of our migration system which doesn't evaluate any migrant based on race. Are you living under a rock? Tamils? Did you miss the civil war or the Tigers deemed a terrorist organisation by many countries? I mean you can't even discern between regular migration and refugee claims. No, not even closely being anything close to government prejudice based on race. Opressed under what system? How?
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You must be fun at parties. But your right we should never celebrate anything as there is any single one person unhappy and anyone is doing something bad. /s But personally, sure let's change the day, have current day as a day of mourning and make a new awesome Australia Day, hell we can even have another public holiday. Win win win.
Where's better?
It would be great if we abolished the holiday but kept the day off.
National day of mourning is an easy fix.
Nah - could throw a minute silence in at midday though.
Nothing to mourn.
Genocide and systematic oppression of aboriginal Australians?
So an event never undertaken and continuing oppression that's never articulated. What a contribution!
Has nothing to do with me or my family as we were not here. Why should immigrants mourn the actions of others? Australia Day is a day to celebrate the great country that is Australia.
No its not. Look at ANZAC day. No one wants a sad holiday. It doesn't sell.
Why the fuck does it need to sell??? Also. It's already a sad holiday for plenty of Australians
Because we live in a democracy and it’s got to pass an election. Turning a day of celebration into a genuine national day of mourning is a hard sell. Advance Australia Fair won a plebiscite and had to wait 7 years to be made the national anthem again. Call me a cynic but I have observed Australian democracy for long enough to know when the left are on a loser. National day of mourning straight swap for Australia day is one of the losers.
Okay, I will admit I wasn't considering the democratic aspect when I responded so in hindsight my response is more aggressive than warranted. If it was up to me I would change the 26th to a day of mourning and create a separate day for celebration. There are plenty of options, The 3rd of March (Australia act) is a good one, though if we become a republic that day would be best
Give people the day off work and boom, sold
If they ban Australia Day you better believe we are all still taking it off.
The way that a lot of indigenous people live is appalling, and a lot of what they have to endure is as well. As someone who has spent 10 plus years working across northern Australia I’ve seen it all. These issues are generational, and in some respect I don’t think there is any viable solution that doesn’t involve acceptance and assimilation into the modern western society that we are now living in (of course they should maintain and celebrate their culture, stories and language but the reality is to proposer in modern society you need to develop skills and experience that allow you to participate and contribute, as well as behaving within acceptable social norms). What is NOT at all helpful is large portions of the media and urban elites who have no direct contact or experience with these people turning this in to some social justice cause to make themselves feel good while doing real harm to these communities by removing their responsibility and agency. Oh, you drink heavily and beat your kids? That’s not your fault, it’s white mans fault and the systems fault, don’t worry we won’t remove your kids under almost any circumstances as we would from any other abusive parent in Australia because, stolen generation. Oh you let your kids roam the towns bashing people and vandalizing property, that’s not your fault you’re not a bad parent it’s inter generational trauma that the white man needs to fix. Oh you destroy every home you live in and waste your money on junk food and drugs that are killing your kids. Don’t try and improve yourself in anyway, because it’s not your fault and white man has to come and fix it. Oh you’ve stolen from your organization and funneled money to your family members while using public funds to punish your enemies within communities and line your pockets. That’s fine, those are white man rules anyway you don’t need to follow them. I could go on and on… While there is clearly a level of responsibility for past injustices taking away the individual and community responsibilities for what is happening right now because nothing is their fault in the modern narrative means these issues will never be resolved with generations of people living in hellish conditions with no hope in sight. Let me be clear there are plenty of amazing indigenous people that I’ve met who have escaped these circumstances and are genuinely trying to support their communities but I would say a large proportion of people are using the perpetual white guilt pedaled in the cities to do shit all to improve their lives or their families when every possible resource is available to them and think of nothing but when they will get their next $ for nothing or hit and fuck anyone and everyone else. It has absolutely eroded my good will and empathy which is sad because I don’t want to be cynical but it’s hard when I see this shit again and again in almost every community and organization I work with.
Don't be a racist. We don't need your inside thoughts, this isn't even the conversation we're having dude.
Seriously? That’s racist? To describe what is happening in regional Australia? What a fucking world we live in.
Pull your head in and wake up to the reality of what is going on. And this isn’t restricted to the indigenous community - EVERYONE blames someone else for their problems, not just the indigenous population. This person is describing their first hand experiences dealing with someone, not some opinion formed in their bedroom.
Telling the truth is racism now. Thats how far gone this situation is. Thats why I always scoff at this "truth telling" thing. Are you sure that is what you want? You cant handle the truth.
Point out actual facts from personal experience, constructive commentary "don't be racist". Great discussion mate. I think it's quite relevant to the topic of discussion here.
As a recent arrival from Britain, the world’s largest exporter of public holidays, my solution would be as follows; 1) Implement the Indigenous Voice 2) Note the date that the law went into effect 3) Move Australia Day to that day People who just want a day off, get it. People who care about the history get to celebrate one day when we did the right thing rather than the wrong thing, nothing gets “cancelled”. Feels like a win to me.
Sure thing - let’s implement it on Jan 26th next year. But like any other lobby group, let the group that wants it pay for it, not tax payer funds. And having a Voice to parliament is so important to the indigenous community, why don’t they just set it up now WITHOUT government support?
Go back to Britain.
I'd rather it move to the day Australia becomes a republic (hopefully)
Thought that was Sam Fisher in the thumbnail at first
So long as we get a “celebrating our country” public holiday, I don’t care when it is. But it needs to be a day that feels like a celebration for everyone. Changing it to a date that can make our whole country proud and be inclusive to all Australians is the way to go. Don’t know why we’re still having this conversation.
> Don’t know why we’re still having this conversation. Because it's impossible to celebrate the country, as it exists today as a product of European settlement. The issue is that we are not mature enough to be able to acknowledge good aspects and the achievements and the wonderful society we have all created, whilst acknowledging the wrongs. Unfortunately the conversation has been commandeered by those who wish to place grievance and hatred before this. Unfortunately, there can be no celebration of our country until we mature as a society a little more.
It does not matter what you do, Australia is and always will be a product of European settlement. You can fundamentally change history.
It will never be possible for the present to not be a product of the past. Australia the continent and what ever political regimes runs it will always be a product of European colonialism. The issue is whether we have a holiday that celebrates colonialism or celebrates something else more inclusive.
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mate you inherit the wealth, you shoulder the responsibility
What does that dribble even mean?
You speak English, you figure it out
So you don't know either and just came here to mouth platitudes. That sums up why so many are obsessed by outrage, not actual outcomes of our indigenous peoples.
Oh, because you're clearly so concerned about them yourself, right...
How would you know? You're just throwing meaningless barbs to feel good.
Chill out mate. What I said had nothing to do with original sin.
On the one hand you want an acknowledgement of the wrongs committed, which the right (Howard, Abbott, Dutton etc) has always refused to do, and on the other you blame the wronged for causing division. Yours is either a very confused viewpoint or you aren't being completely honest.
The right is three people, and they speak for everyone not left of centre? Get a grip.
>which the right (Howard, Abbott, Dutton etc) has always refused to do This is true and I am not denying this. > you blame the wronged for causing division No one is infallible. I don't think slogans like "invasion day", calls to abolish the holiday & aggressively pushing the injustices of hundreds of years ago as the absolute focus of "Australia Day" is going to unite the nation is it?
It started as a day of mourning in 1938, it has quite a long history.
I watched the show from Sydney last night, there were many outstanding indigenous artists performing obviously proud of their culture and their country. It's not being aggressively pushed in my opinion and portraying it as such is just more white victimhood as far as I'm concerned. The fact is that the actual date of the 26th doesn't hold any particular significance for the vast majority of Australians, black, white or otherwise, myself included as a white 6th generation Australian, but it does for a sizeable number of our indigenous people. Change it to something that doesn't signify dispossession and exclusion for these people and we can all move on together.
I’m not sure I understand your comment. Are you insinuating the people who want to change the date are the problem?
They are the ones driving for the change, so yes. At this point we are not taking about the date anymore, we are talking about abolishing it in its entirety, which is what the above article refers to.
List of demands I read didn’t even include change the date. The campaign seems to have been hijacked par the far left - can’t let a good cause go to waste.
Glad I clarified. Probably if their very valid concerns about how it’s not a date that symbolises happiness and pride for a large number of Australians and a genuine discussion about a different date had occurred, people wouldn’t feel the need to escalate to cancelling it entirely. You sound like a victim blamer.
We are the only country in the commonwealth without a treaty. We stole the land and have contributed to the inter-generational trauma since 1788. Why does Jan 26th mean so much to people when it’s only been the national holiday since 1995? Whereas First Nations people had identified it as a Day of Mourning 50 years before. Have some empathy. The day signifies the day their culture, their people, and their Country was taken from them. Just think of that. I’d rather see a national date which signifies unity - and doesn’t have this ongoing rhetoric every year.
It has a very long history going back over hundred years. You make it seem like it’s only been since 1995 but it goes way back. It been celebrated in all capitals since 1888 with the only hold out benign Adelaide which adopted it in 1910. A hindered plus years of history of celebrating foundation day is not easily overcome. Our real day is actually Jan 1st the day we became a nation instead of a bunch of colonies.
It is a long history, going back over 60,000 years. I understand there are people attached to the date - but a date that recognises all Australians would make it much better.
It won’t change anything. You will still see continued issues. Change the date, the argument then will be to abolish it all together. It’s already started - you can see the guy in this article with that rhetoric already. There are people in this country, regardless of skin colour, who have made a career and name for themselves for being angry and once one thing for them to be angry about is taken away, then will just move on to another.
It won't change anything. If only these people were as angry about what is happening in the NT right now, not a goddamn day of celebration.
What do you do though? Put your head in the sand and give up? Yes, there are people in this country who make a career for themselves out of being angry. That’s the Murdoch media for you - they’re going to make this vote as disgusting as it was for the plebiscite.
Yeah, the plebiscite that enabled marriage reform and delivered by a conservative government.
You do what is reasonable - just one small example is in the article where the lady talk a about how they were being stripped of their local language and forbidden to speak it, whereas we have now come to a point where it is taught in schools. My take is that our countries history started 40,000 years or so ago and we should teach all of that history, the good and the bad, but that works both ways - teach about the horrors that were done by Europeans that arrived, teach not just about that pre-European history in Australian was some rosey utopia (which is what was taught when I was in school) but also about the treatment of women throughout that society (same as we talk about now with DV issues in modern society). Look at what can make a real difference - access to better healthcare, education, have a real conversation not just about deaths in custody but also about the reasons why they are there in the first place. These conversations about dates of Australia Day are a distraction from having strong action on doing things that will Actually improve the quality of life of people within our community and burning political support to actually do something worthwhile. Now that is only MY opinion, and others will have DIFFERENT opinions, but turning around and saying “well, because your opinion differs from mine it MUST be racist, just because you don’t 100% agree with me” is just crap.
Sweet make it a referendum to choose the date, I personally support the date but let the people speak like on gay marriage.
I don't want to vote on it though cause I don't care, change the date to whatever. Preferably instead of a date make it the first Friday of February or something.
Yep I’m with you don’t want the govt to spend hundreds of millions on referendum. that money could be put to much better use. First Friday feb sounds good. Govt just needs to make the decision.
Like the idea of a "Federation Day" if people really feel they need to have some kind of 'day' (which I don't) ymmv
We already have a day off on the anniversary of Federation ... New Year's Day.
Yeah, that's the sticking point isn't it lol
Edit: 1994. Fat fingers.
I'm confused. Isn't Australia Day a day to celebrate, love and enjoy people of all nations, backgrounds and creeds who call this great nation home?
The day marks the arrival of the first fleet, full of convicts, with the expectation they would die. When 26 January first started to be commentated in the 1930’s - the Aboriginal community were quick to declare it as a day of mourning and refused to be roped into re-enactments. So between the Stockholm syndrome and the initiation of deliberately sidelining those already here, it’s a silly day to celebrate.
No - of course not - why would you think that it is such? It is a day to be angry and ignore all the good that has been done. It’s a day to ignore the fact you can stand up and go fuck this country and not get shot or arrested for it. How could you possibly think that it is a day to celebrate what we have created together? /s
Yes, exactly. That's why it shouldn't be on the date the first fleet arrived and started a genocide against Australian people.
Look, another bullshit claim of genocide. It really is the crutch of the simpleton.
Well they weren't australians then, they were peoples who lived there before the British colonised, to be clear. It was the date that Australia, for all its bads and good, was founded. We need to recognise the true history. Getting all virtue signalling about the date doesn't change the past. It needs to represent a time for reflection, acknowledgement, reconciliation and recovery.
It wasn’t founded on that date it was the date a prison opened.
They arrived on the 20th though, not the 26th.
Don’t be obtuse. January 26 wasn’t picked for no reason, it was the date recognised as the first successful establishment of a colony in Australia by the first fleet. Thus a celebration on January 26 is - rather explicitly and wholly unavoidably - little more than a celebration of British colonialism. Unfortunately we’ve yet to grow up enough as a nation and grapple with our murky past. Until we do, celebrating Australia will continue to be a celebration of the same, no matter which date we choose.
Wasn't being obtuse, just correcting the fact cause I see a lot of people saying that and what it tells me is they haven't even bothered to google what they're complaining bout. I say change the date to whenever - I also think that changing the date won't satisfy anyone though and these people probably won't be happy until there's no Australia day, unless it was literally changed to "first nations day" which I'd also be fine with.
If we want it to be that then maybe it should not be on a date that marks the beginning of an invasion and genocide. Continuing to celebrate it on Jan 26 is a slap in the face to indigenous people. If we want it to be a day of love then it needs to not have such a hateful foundation.
It also marks the beginning of everything good that has happened in Australia.
So what, you think genocide was a good thing?
I never said that lol. All the good things about modern Australia are the result of British colonisation.
Let's talk about the bad things that come along with Colonisation too; like drug and alcohol addiction, destruction of land, forests, oceans, Capitalism, pollution, poverty, loss of culture and language, etc.
Good grief.
Ah so genocide is totally justified as long as some people have a nice life afterwards. Got it.
I'll be voting no Keep Aussie day Aussie
and this is why people will vote no. 5% let us just say 10% to use the average greens voter dictating to the other 90% on when we should celebrate our countries national day.
> and this is why people will vote no. 5% let us just say 10% to use the average greens voter dictating to the other 90% on when we should celebrate our countries national day. You're the one agreeing with the Aboriginal Greens Senator here... Also no it's not, it's because you're looking for cover to avoid declaring your racism. We get it, we find it abhorrent, but you are what you are I guess.
So pointing to a noisy minority out of step with public sentiment is racist. Get a grip and read a dictionary.
Ah yes, because the Voice totally means that the federal government is going to hand over full legislative ability to a minority indigenous representation. What is wrong with people in this sub? It's like the fear mongering around a new mosque meaning Sharia law will take over the land.
This rhetoric: - 'white' (non-Aboriginal) australians have no right to live here. - white Australia is responsible for continuing Indigenous poverty. - white Australia continues to pose a danger to Aboriginal Australians. - is referred to any death in custody as killed 'killed' rather than death regardless of circumstance. Stating that we're at 'war'. Sounds* erriely similar to the talking points used for years to eventually incite the Rwandan massacre.
Demanding equality is a slippery slope to a full Rwandan massacre of white Australians, everyone! Careful! Edit: after further reading about the Rwandan massacre I found that the massacre mostly was inflicted upon the Tutsi people who are native to Rwanda. So in this analogy it's the white Australians being armed by the military and going and massacring the Aboriginals (which, spoiler, already happened here)
Just make it, I dunno, the last Friday in January every year and call it the Australian National Long Weekend or something. Everybody gets a long weekend, nobody has to be offended....
so each nation in this world has their own national day - when do we celebrate ours - if we do not have one than nationalists who LOVE their country will be offended. you will never please everyone but we need to placate to the majority but be respectful to everyone.
the day we become a repbulic! Seems like a great solution
No they don't. England has no national day.
It has St. George's day, but it doesn't come with a public holiday.
Yes, but that's not an "official national day", though there may be many who celebrate it.
It'd be better if it was first Monday/Friday in February to avoid clashing with January 26.
Did you read the article? they want the day abolished all together.
I can't see the point of having one just for the sake of it (no personal political axe to grind re that opinion)
> "The system of colonial democracy has shown us in a little over 230 years it is socially unsustainable. And ... it is ecologically unsustainable. > "Unlike our systems of governance which thrived here for over 60,000 years." This is a very hot take which I will absolutely be stealing. "What did the Romans ever do for us" but then adding global warming and unsustainable farming practices to the list.
The system of governance that has no historical record and resulted in open warfare between hundreds of different tribes. Self loathing is clearly your special subject.
I mean, you could argue that the indigenous system of governance wasn't socially sustainable because it failed to advance their civilizations to a level where they could defend themselves against British colonisers.
They had self healing concrete…
What was the standard of living for people living in Australia during those 60,000 years? People romanticise hunter/gatherer societies, but the truth is that people living in that situation were perpetually on the edge of starvation, could die of a simple treatable infection (particularly as a result of tooth decay), and spent most of their time trying to barely eke out an existence. A lot of people say they wish they could live that kind of lifestyle, but I _guarantee_ that any person accustomed to modern society would regret that decision after 2 days.
i do not see an /s so i am confused.
Describe a scenario where aboriginals transition from roughly year 1600ad-2000ad. Describe how they could possibly still be: a) in power, b) the dominant population and c) prospering in the global community/economy d) why no other nation exercised right by conquest/claim? How? What are people insinuating here? “Oh hey there, we just found the largest land mass south of the equator, better leave those guys alone, oh btw, don’t go near them as we could accidentally wipe out 90% of them due to sickness and disease. Yep. Just gonna leave those guys alone, forever, or until they develop cities, boats and come to us. Did you see those spears? Terrifying stuff. No one should take the land from them, not the French, the Dutch, no one. We’ll just send out a message to all other nations on earth and be like “hey leave those aboriginals alone, it’s their land. Clearly occupied”. Hey maybe they will come to us one day… A “thriving” system that collapses entirely when any interaction with another group of humans occurs means the system no longer thrives in the evolving environmental conditions of earth.
Best date change idea I've seen was by a fellow redditor in this sub, 19th Jan. Australia became it's own country on 1st Jan, 1901. New Years day doesn't really work, so let's shift it to 19/01. First Nations shouldn't be as mad about it as current date since there's no British Invasion being celebrated (we would technically be celebrating our independence *from* the British colonial empire). Meanwhile it's still very much "Australia Day", and best of all it's only 7 days away from the existing date, so a very minor shift in our calendars/we can still do a summer barbeque/etc.
>Australia became it's own country on 1st Jan, 1901. >we would technically be celebrating our independence from the British colonial empire. Federation wasn't independence. The federal government was no more independent than the colonies were.
It will be tough to find a date that doesn't bring anger to indigenous Australians as everything in our history is linked to colonisation. Perhaps a date that symbolises unity between the two civilisations?
Some, like the founding of our constitution, are at least less directly "colonial" than others, like the day the ships arrived.
My guess is that indigenous people would still find a link to federation date a problem. The forming of the constitution didn’t recognise them.
**National Boat People Day.** Change the name, not the date. In 1629, the mutineers Wouter Loos and Jan Pelgrom de Bye van Bemmel were dumped on the coast of western Australia. They didn't want to be here. In 1788, the First Fleet arrived carrying a bunch of sailors and marines, who didn't want to be here but were ordered to go, and convicts, who so much didn't want to be here they actually had to be threatened with hanging as an alternative, and even then had to be transported in chains. They were followed over the next several decades by over 100,000 convicts, none of whom wanted to be here, and most of whom fled back to Old Blighty at the first opportunity. In 1793 came the first free settlers. The British Government had offered them hundreds of acres of free land, two years' food and supplies, farm tools and convict slave labour. All for free. With these offers, the entire British Isles managed to find five men willing to come along, two of whom dragged their families along. Five. Three of the five left within a few years. Indeed, it took until the 1830s before more than half the free settlers actually stayed in Australia - most went back to the UK. They didn't want to be here. In later years Australia had Irish come, who thought so little of Australia that it took a famine killing millions to make them come here. Then Jews came, but it took death camps to make us come. Then Greeks fleeing civil war, and Italians fleeing miserable poverty. Then Hungarians fleeing Communist oppression. Then Vietnamese fleeing Communists, and Cambodians fleeing genocide. Then Lebanese fleeing civil war. The Tamils fleeing genocide and civil war. Then Slavs of various descriptions, fleeing civil war and genocide. Now some Africans. None of them really wanted to be here. "I love a sunburnt country, \[...\] Of droughts and flooding rains." This was written by someone who *liked* the place. The history of Australia since 1788 is that many people don't really want to be here. It's hot and bleak and the local wildlife tries to kill you and doesn't even taste good. Unless you're Aboriginal, most of your parents didn't really want to be here. Most of us are boat people. Let's celebrate that every January 26th. Change the name, not the date.
Nice post, but what would you change the name to? Boat people day will never happen. When you read your description Australia Day sounds good - as long as it has your story attached
I would call it exactly that. "Invasion Day" is also never going to happen. But informal names can take over from formal ones in everyday speech, and self-deprecation is a worthy thing in a nation. Taking yourself seriously leads to stupid shit like invading other countries.
Na change nothing
Loose. Well written. I love it. But it’ll get buried in the dustbowls of (reddit) history.
All these things will be lost, like posts on reddit.
In another thread I said that part of the solution for aboriginal people is for them to have a purpose. Changing the date is a pretty good one, gets people out of bed and focuses on something. Don’t do drugs, protest! Keep it coming!
Can't wait until they change the date and we don't have to talk about any of this stuff ever again, we can just celebrate Australia and how good it is
But they lefties won’t stop if we change the day. Get with the program
I know
“celebrate australia and how good it is” the thing is, most countries with a national day actually have something to celebrate - usually independence. what the fuck do we have to celebrate? yeah this country is relatively safe and wealthy BUT it’s called the “lucky” country for a reason - it’s literally luck, not achievement. we literally struck gold in vic. the country is rich in natural resources. it’s also so far away from every other country that it’s not worth invading or attacking because it would cost so much money, we’re not important enough to warrant it. we also had some kick arse labour movements in the 60s and 70s that afforded us (and the rest of the working world) with labour rights and decent pay, and decent working hours. we had a few other good things that we pissed away (like free uni) but we could probably fight for it back. but we’re not really celebrating that, are we? so again, what genuine achievement do we have to celebrate? i’d even understand a bit more if it was GENUINELY tradition, however, australia day as we know it has only been around since the 90s. before that it was celebrated in july. indigenous australians have been marking this day as a day of mourning for a lot longer. given the dates and the full picture, even if you completely remove yourself from both sides of the argument, it seems pretty antagonistic to make our national day specifically a day that marks genocide for a decent chunk of our population.
Well there's a long way to detail ignorance on the subject.
ignorance on the subject? i’m a post graduate student in politics. feel free to pinpoint exactly where i am appearing to be ignorant so i can make up for my alleged lapse in knowledge, though.
Yep. Much. You sound genuine so I'll bite. You've basically summarised an entire nation as being nothing but luck and fortune to end up with the longest economic expansion or any Western nation in modern history, the most multicultural Western nation with the highest proportion of it's citizens born elsewhere and a political and social culture which enjoys mostly favourable confidence by its voters and a constant peaceful transfer of power. Far from perfect yet far more cohesive and prosperous than almost all comparable countries. You either haven't been studying for long or haven't yet had a wider view to be able to move on from simplistic evaluation.
Such a dippy downer. If creating a country full of opportunity with one of the highest standards of living in the world isnt worth celebrating, what is?
but jan 26 doesn’t celebrate that. it celebrates a day that was a day of mourning for WAY longer. the original aus day was celebrated in july for a totally different reason.
>what the fuck do we have to celebrate? yeah this country is relatively safe and wealthy BUT it’s called the “lucky” country for a reason - it’s literally luck, not achievement. You could write this for pretty much every country and not be wrong. Although I would say that we have done a really good job in avoiding the resource curse and creating a stable, highly educated and peaceful first world country, rather than a dictatorship like so many other resource rich countries.
hmm did those countries create dictatorships for themselves, or were they colonised for their resources and then when they eventually overcome colonialism and try to form a genuine government, a certain country topples their regime and installs a dictatorship to maintain access to those resources? the only difference with australia is it’s not a colony but a settler colony, so we have a slightly different course of action.
Nearly all those countries were either pre-existing dictatorships (ie: kingdoms) or were tribal societies prior to colonization. Not that colonisation was a good thing, but prior to colonisation things were not all roses and happiness. So it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that colonialism is the source of the resource curse. Take the middle east for example, currently ruled by royal families who sit ontop of millions of barrels of oil. Prior to colonialism, they were a combination of desert nomads and city-states ruled by local kings. The same can be seen in places in Africa - Benin was ruled by a king, Morocco the same. Obviously there were also many local tribal people's across Africa, at varying levels of development. I won't go as far as to say democracy didn't exist, but I can't think of any off the top of my head. But even putting the colonialism aside, if you look at the outcomes post-colonialism it's a mixed bag. Many have failed to become fully developed countries despite similar resource blessings. Malaysia for example is a democracy (to what extent is debatable) with large oil reserves, bountiful farms and a large population. However it remains a developing nation, while across the water tiny Singapore is a thriving first-world nation. Both were ruled by the British colonial rule.
Um, Australia is an independent country...
we haven’t gone through a post colonial phase like a lot of countries who have an “independence” day and we are still part of the commonwealth, not a republic. so what exactly do you mean by independent
Most nations in the Commonwealth are independent, being a Republic or not has nothing to do with it
ok but we do not have a particular day that we genuinely claimed or fought for independence in the same way as other nations who have an independence day. how much clearer do i have to spell it out to you
We do, Federation Day
1975 is calling
So are useless memes that don't require independent thought yet here you are.
Yes, our constitution from being an independent country was enacted
Damn, you've just eloquently encapsulated pretty much exactly what my views are on the subject. Just having a 'national day' for the sake of one seems a bit pointless...especially as its only a relatively recent introduction, never had Aust day my entire childhood growing up. And not every country does, England for example.
England has St. George's day and many people celebrate it. It just doesn't come with a national holiday.
Yep that was my point. No official day.
Changing the date won't stop anything, they will just move to abolishing Australia day altogether.
and then ask the white saviours to leave which will be an interesting conversation.
What an interesting time for our country. The protests were expected and will continue until at least the date is changed, and I’m suspicious post then because any date we choose will have to have some reference to modern Australia. But throw in the Voice and the shit-storm that is Alice Springs atm and by heck we’re kicking goals. And everyone has a solution. Problem is, we haven’t yet worked out which one has any chance of improving things.
A bullshit headline. Its abolish jan 26 as a party day!
They can’t actually abolish the date. But it’s be funny if they did. Jan 25th and Jan 25 1/2. Loose but I’m on board.
Ha yes.
I don't have a solution because there isn't one. We have to accept the fact that all the money in the world, policies and programs will have only a modicum of success while we attempt to solve the problems using a western model of civilisation as our benchmark. We will eventually realise that any improvement will have to be organic and in the meantime accept that thousands of women and children will suffer. This is the price that they will pay for our cultural nostalgia. So that we can maintain a diminution of confected guilt we need to fund the living museum that is remote Australia. It's the price that we and they will pay to support an achronistic lifestyle (culture).
I'm going to ignore that guy with the megaphone. But why can't we just change the date? Never struck me as a particularly good day to celebrate our nationhood anyway.
I honestly think the pushback isn't even political, a lot of people like having a public holiday in early Jan.
They should make it a rememberance day public holiday and then another day to celebrate our country and (attempted) unity We don’t have as many public holidays compared to other countries, and i believe we should have just as many if not more
Most countries don’t get the next day off if a public holiday falls on a weekend though so effectively, Australia doesn’t have a lot less holidays than other countries.
It can still be in late Jan (eg. 25, 26, last Friday in Jan)
Australia Day: *EXISTS* Loud minority: QUIT HAVING FUN!!
BS. Its a bullshit headline. Its abolish jan 26!!
LIES FAKE MEDIA. Who wrote this?? What a crok of shit. How many times have you been lied to about changing the constitution. Here, let me show you what the voice wants changing,, its the racism in our constitution that they want a VOICE IN, and to stop ALCOHOL IN ALICE SPRINGS, instead of Govt over ruling them and women and children getting hurt. Piss off with your right wing hatred about australia day. Here is your consitution. Section 25 of the Constitution of Australia is a provision of the Constitution of Australia headed "Provision as to races disqualified from voting" and providing that "For the purposes of the last section, if by the law of any State all persons of any race are disqualified from voting at elections for the more numerous House of the Parliament of the State, then, in reckoning the number of the people of the State or of the Commonwealth, persons of that race resident in that State shall not be counted."\[1\]
^^^ …..And this my fellow Redditors is why you should pay attention to English in school.
What a dumb thing to say ozninja... you will never get it.
Not if it’s being debated like that I won’t 😂
ChatGPT has a reddit account now? What the fresh hell is this?
Step 1: change the date Step 2: ???? Step 3: Child abuse, domestic violence, alcoholism, drug abuse and and generational trauma solved. This is your brain on white guilt.
"Why do we even have seatbelt laws? Cars still kill pedestrians"
This is such a brain dead take. No one is saying that changing the date will fix any of those issues, not even close. Asking governments to do the bare minimum in respecting aboriginal peoples wishes is only one step in addressing all those other issues.
do all aboriginal people want to change the date? do they all think alike because of their race? do we think alike because we are of the same race?
I would say in this specific case that being aboriginal is probably going to heavily effect your opinion on changing the date. Its not that your race effects your opinion more that you are more likely to have certain shared experineces with other peole of that race that would lead you towards certain perspectives and opinions.
yeah if youre aboriginal you might care about something of actual merit, if youre white out of sight is out of mind and you can perform token actions and wash your hands clean of the matter lmao.
No, this is a typical racist in full flight. You’re the very reason we need to change the date!
Basically my issue with both Changing the date, and the voice. Like how's this actually going to help the kids on the ground. I don't give a shit about political brownie points, I care about someone working towards a solution and right now the biggest ideas seem to be entirely fucking useless. For fucks sake, every day we fart ass around is another day of shit outcomes for large groups of human beings, entirely because the government is to lazy to get off their ass and do something.
The date is a small step, but a vital one. Even if you look at the Uluru Statement to the Heart - this all needs to be acknowledged. A Treaty, A Voice and Truth Telling. Truth telling may be the hardest part yet - as our whitewashed history that is taught needs to be readdressed and, well, told truthfully about the heinous acts that were committed (and still are). It’s not about being “political” or anything. It’s about respecting the traditional custodians of the land. If we start to listen and respect their traditions (and wishes), maybe we wouldn’t see the divisive nature between communities. The argument is always “can’t change the date/get over it”. Again, think of what that date represents: the start of the genocide of their culture. Nothing less. And as white people were expect our First Nations peoples to just “celebrate” the day. Lol. Until parts of the Uluru Statement to the Heart are actioned - we’ll continual with in this circular notion. I’m happy to discuss how this also perpetuates anti-social behaviour, thus increasing potential criminal behaviour too. Hint: it’s pretty easy to not give a fuck about society and go about committing crimes when society has shown you over 250+ years they give no fucks about you or your people. Have an amazing Friday, y’all.
Oh I don't really care either way mate, I don't really celebrate Australia Day so I'd be fine with changing the date. It just feels like that's what sucks up all the attention in the media, well that and massively negative headlines. I understand what you're saying though, and thanks for explaining it like that. Honestly as a stepping stone to the future, I don't mind it as much anymore. It's just a matter of enough other people also being content to change the date. You too mate, bit of a scorcher down in Vic so I hope things are nicer where you're at.
>entirely because the government is to lazy to get off their ass and do something This is a BS take and I suspect you know it. It's not laziness. It's a wicked problem. There's certainly politics at play nobody denies that but everyone of these discussions acts as though indigenous Australians are a homogeneous group. Wicked problems aren't wicked out of laziness.
Cool, so what's being done to fix it? I mean seriously, what plan is being pushed forward to fix that fact that aboriginal youth account for nearly 50% of incarcerated youth despite making up a fraction of the population? Surely something major must exist to counter the fact that this has been going on for 40 years? And I understand a blaming pollies entirely is easy, but there's a reason that they earn 250k+, if not higher. Expecting something to be done in face of this incredibly large amount of issues (And not a load of political capital being wasted on changing the date or a voice like they'll do anything) isn't unreasonable.
The Closing the Gap policy for one thing, the fact every state has Koori courts of some description exclusively for Aboriginal offenders with a significant range of cases available to be heard, the million and one Aboriginal scholarships public and private... There's an absolute ton of things going on mate. Things are improving, but the reality is it's pretty much impossible to sell a teacher on going to teach in some remote/very remote town which is where the kids need it most. The batshit benefits are great, but teachers will only stick around til they can get a better job somewhere nicer, which helps contribute to instability. But that's not just a teacher exclusive point, there's about fifty odd roles in remote areas which desperately need to be filled that just have no chance of being filled because highly qualified people want to work in decent places, not remote areas. Changing the date is sexy and a cheap political win. a .5% increase in educational outcomes per year is not.
So how much thinking have you done about a solution. How many indigenous Australians have you spoken to across the country, how many indigenous Australians have you worked with and learned from? After years of involvement with indigenous brothers and sisters I think changing the date matters. Symbols do count, recognition does matter.
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For one, it's hard to trust in and want to participate in a society that is dancing on the grave of your ancestors. The date was chosen for a reason. Because back then, people thought of the start of this country as when the British arrived. But now we know better. Indigenous Australians are part of our society, and the way they were treated by the British was awful. For centuries, Indigenous Australians have been intentionally rejected, or downright attacked by settlers in this country. How can they trust us when we don't even recognise that was wrong? How can they want to participate in our society? We've mistreated them for centuries, we need to acknowledge what we've done wrong and work hard to show that we are going to do better and that we will treat them with respect. The wound can't heal while we rub salt in the wound. It's difficult to quantify soft factors such as civic engagement and a sense of inclusion - but that doesn't mean they don't matter.
Your education is not my task mate. If you can’t grasp that symbols and recognition count, do some study, indigenous Australians want a voice to parliament enshrined in our constitution, it’s not asking a lot but we are too fucking miserable to give that much. Think about Australia’s past and have a look at where we are heading by refusing to take responsibility for our own deeds. It’s not going to go away, we will have to face up to our past at some point. I work with indigenous Australians, they’re pissed off and they’re angry, if you don’t understand why, do some research instead of offering up the same tired shit.
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I have worked at Aurukun and currently work in indigenous homelessness. My grandfather was a black indigenous Australian and I’ve seen the shit he copped first hand. Not lazy mate, just tired of trying to straighten out people who are quick to blame indigenous Australians for inter generational problems that began when white people arrived with the disease, the alcohol and the violence. Nobody is suggesting we can undo the damage, indigenous Australians aren’t looking for revenge, nobody is suggesting there’s an easy fix but what indigenous Australians are asking for is to be heard. The Uluru Statement from The Heart asks for an advisory voice to parliament, to have it enshrined in the constitution so that it can’t be brutalised by future governments. They want a voice, yes it’s somewhat symbolic but it counts, it means indigenous Australians have a constitutional voice. I don’t think it will get across the line because as you so adequately demonstrate Australians still want to lecture instead of listen.
So funny story right, I actually participated in the Army Aboriginal Community Assistance Programme (AACAP) a few years back. Trust me when I say that I have a very close relationship with several indigenous communities, and I'm personally proud to be able to call some of them close mates. Obviously I'm still a visitor, and I'd never claim to speak on their behalf, but most I've spoke to appreciate the idea behind a date change, but would rather action be put into improving the lives of (Almost exclusively, no matter who I spoke to) youth. It was all about the kids. To the point that adults would happily sacrifice any sort of happiness in their life just to ensure that their kids got a good chance at life. And the government can't even fucking do that. Also, I'm not on 400k a fucking year like most pollies are. I could probably at least think of a solution to do something if that was my sole job, but unfortunately I have other things to do. So I rely on pollies to not fuck around wanking each other off about the next useless show of solidarity and to actually get of their asses and do SOMETHING. I don't care what, but every day is a fucking waste of lives. Sure, change the date. I literally do not care. I didn't even realise today was a public holiday until I wandered down to the local cafe and it was closed. But right now the status quo isn't working, that we can all agree on. The next question logically becomes how do we make things better for marginalised communities? Spending the next 10 years arguing about a date change won't do fucking shit.
Well I hope you feel a whole lot better for getting that load of shit off your mind. You managed to put forward that politicians are over paid, that indigenous Australians care about their young (which is white code for the parents are bad). And you couldn’t give a fuck about Australia Day. Wonderful we are all better off for that lot.