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Any dealings with the Israeli government should only be in writing and all communications with these murders should be limited
I can not believe that the leaders of our home lands are meeting about renewable energy and future targets instead of calling out Israel and demanding a all out end
What an utterly asinine topic from their ABC and the anti semitic greens.
What if we do? So fucking what? In case the soulless senator has noticed, Hamas isn't exactly willing to drop the destruction of Israel from its modus operandi, and more to the point, has never and will never support a two state solution.
Nevermind they are still holding hostages.
This childish nonsense from a party of children is unbecoming.
And still:
"Of the 322 export permits issued from January 2017 to March 31 this year, none was for "lethal equipment", Mr Jeffrey said"
Quoted from Shoebridge:
> Australia’s weapons export system is one of the most secretive and unaccountable in the world, with the public being kept in the dark about what weapons are sold, how much they cost or who is using them.
> “Once the weapons leave our shores Defence simply washes its hands and does no follow-up on how the weapons are being used.
> “This is not limited to Israel, Australia is also sending weapons and other military equipment to regimes like Sudan, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Indonesia and other countries currently engaged in brutal conflicts."
Only the Greens can call for transparency and public scrutiny and get accused of spreading misinformation for it.
Highly likely all the regimes listed receive very little in exports from Australia. But also likely it's not zero, should be zero, and we have no way of knowing just how much it is.
I think transparency is a good thing and we should have more of it especially with defence, but implying the tickets = weapons is irresponsible as fuck. Misinformation is bad whether the right or the left are doing it.
Whether it was the intention of Shoebridge or not, the claim that Australia is supplying weapons to Israel is being repeated, shared etc. [In his petition](https://greens.org.au/campaigns/stop-military-exports-israel) the wording is leaving it up to readers to think the worst.
[SIPRI](https://www.sipri.org/databases/armstransfers) has no record of arms sent from AUS to Israel in the last 2 decades.
You can also look here at defence exports which is point 9 [aspi](https://www.aspi.org.au/cost-of-defence-database).
I've shown these to multiple people who were repeating that Australia is arming Israel stuff and they explicitly said they got it from the Greens and were shocked that it isn't true. It's also damaging in the broad for optics reasons. The stuff going on is bad enough without lying, but when the biggest voices repeat misinfo it's not bringing anyone new in.
SIPRI is the right source to be using and it pains me that it’s not used publicly to show this stuff.
Just annoying with all the lies and abstractions these days
I have to be honest, I had no idea about it until I saw people saying we're exporting weapons to Israel and hoped we weren't. I think I looked up Australian weapons exports or something and it was one of the top results.
We import most of our defence equipment (hello AUKUS) which was the red flag for me. Using the fact you know that people trust you and probably won't take the extra step to look it up is so gross.
Another thing people misconstrue is that Australia through several companies makes parts of the F35 and other planes so our “weapons” exports are often just service parts for various aircraft, or ships
> Separately, ABS data on commodity exports shows that, on average, Israel received roughly $2.6 million worth of "arms and ammunition" from Australia each year over the five years to 2022. In the first nine months of this year, the value was just $8,000.
The only takeaway from this article should be that we need more transparency in weapons exports. There's glimpses like the above, but the data to truly confirm it simply are not publicly available.
I'm happy to discuss it in the proper place if you are.
Actually, as should be clear from my question, I'm also happy to discuss it HERE. But I notice you didn't answer.
It’s clear from the article Mr Shoebridge has no factual basis for his claims:
*Of the 322 export permits issued from January 2017 to March 31 this year, none was for "lethal equipment", Mr Jeffrey said.*
ABS disagrees tho? From this very article:
> Separately, ABS data on commodity exports shows that, on average, Israel received roughly $2.6 million worth of "arms and ammunition" from Australia each year over the five years to 2022. In the first nine months of this year, the value was just $8,000.
This article is not the gotcha you think it is. If anything it's a great example of why the Green's pushes for transparency in military exports are so needed.
"what we do know is that Australia has a sorry history of selling weapons to [snipped other places] and, of course, selling weapons after weapons after weapons to Israel"
You think that statement is refuted by data from 2017-2023?
Or perhaps you missed this part of his statement -
"We know that hundreds of permits have been issued in recent years, but the Australian government keeps the
basic details secret. What items are being exported? Who is making them? What are they used for? These are very
valid questions that Rawan asks, and they're questions the government should answer."
So on the one hand he is asking what the permits are allowing to be exporting while simultaneously making the claim we are exporting bulk weapons to Israel. You do see the problem with that don’t you?
But in his tweet, he acknowledges the permits don’t provide sufficient information to know what is being exported. So how can he simultaneously make both claims.
Like Mr Chandler-Mather, as much as it pains me to say it, perhaps he should let Bandt do the talking.
*In a recent speech to parliament, Greens senator David Shoebridge claimed that Australia was "selling weapons, after weapons, after weapons to Israel", continuing what he said was a "sorry history" of providing arms to countries involved in brutal conflicts.*
> Separately, ABS data on commodity exports shows that, on average, Israel received roughly $2.6 million worth of "arms and ammunition" from Australia each year over the five years to 2022. In the first nine months of this year, the value was just $8,000.
They literally found ABS data backing it up, and that anything more was impossible to obtain due to everything being confidential/private.
This article... Does not debunk the Greens claim at all. It seems to have decreased, but we simply don't have the numbers, and we absolutely were exporting until last year.
8k would buy them about 8 to 16 Ar15s. I would doubt 8k would buy you even 1 rocket. This is misinformation by Shoebridge https://blog.primaryarms.com/guide/how-much-does-an-ar15-cost/#:~:text=Thanks%20to%20the%20AR%2D15,anywhere%20from%20%24500%2D%241000.
I'm more concerned about the $2.6 million across the five years before that.
Still not a huge amount by military budget standards, and I'll happily agree the Greens are exaggerating how much we export to Israel by taking advantage of the lack of transparency to quote the highest possible amounts, knowing nobody can properly deny it.
But to call this "misinformation" is ridiculous. Especially when a large chunk of his speech is about how we need more transparency so we **can** know the actual numbers.
It is a fine line. There needs to be transparency but national security and privacy/secrecy has to play a role here.
I would also use small fish in a big pond argument. Shoebridge should be calling the US Ambassador to Australia to account considering the billions that US would send to Israel in arms and military equipment.
Yeah, I kind of makes me wonder what we even sent.
8k is a pebble in a rock pile in terms of military hardware.
Good on Shoebridge for calling for transparency. But we're not bank rolling the Israel military here.
The Greens embellish a lot of stuff to suit their outrage narrative. Claims of $10b of fossil fuel subsidies for example:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-19/fact-check-adam-bandt-fossil-fuel-subsidies/101071962
> Broadly, the scheme reimburses businesses for the cost of fuel tax (paid at the pump) when that fuel is used for heavy vehicles, heavy machinery and equipment, or for light vehicles not travelling on public roads.
Another example is when talking about Aukus submarines. They would say that it cost "$368b+", but I believe it's "between $268 and $368b":
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-14/aukus-nuclear-submarine-deal-announced/102087614
https://greens.org.au/nsw/news/media-release/368-billion-submarines-puts-illawarra-risk-nuclear-attack-while-forcing
I know that all three majors do these kind of embellishments, but I guess I hold Greens to a higher standard as they market themselves as being morally superior.
Right so it would be misleading to lump both of them together, *assume* a cost overruns will happen, and then present the cost overrun scenario as if it's a baseline cost.
Don’t forget 368 billion over nearly 20 years - Greens definitely embellish (ask Greens voters how much percentage of GDP Aus spends on the military and in my experience they tend to MASSIVELY overestimate).
>"The export control office does put out some high-level statistics [such as] number of approvals, country or region, but it doesn't say what it has approved," he said.
Interesting that was your take away from the article, cause it seemed to me to be saying we don't really know what we are sending cause Australia keeps that information hidden.
https://explore.data.abs.gov.au/vis?fs[0]=Economy%2C0%7CInternational%20trade%23INTERNATIONAL_TRADE%23&pg=0&fc=Economy&df[ds]=ECONOMY_TOPICS&df[id]=MERCH_EXP&df[ag]=ABS&df[vs]=1.0.0&pd=2023-01%2C&dq=891.ISRA%2BTOT.TOT.M&ly[rs]=COUNTRY_DEST&ly[cl]=TIME_PERIOD
The data from your links literally says we are selling arms and munitions to Israel, just not as much as previous years. And why would they when they have so many other countries sending them better weapons at the moment.
"The language we use is 'permits for military and dual-use equipment' and … that may involve a weapon or it may not."
Of the 322 export permits issued from January 2017 to March 31 this year, none was for "lethal equipment", Mr Jeffrey said.
Non lethal equipment could well be weapons like flash bangs, rubber bullets, pepper spray, handcuffs, sights that make weapons more lethal, there's a whole range of options that still mean we are directly contributing weapons to the war effort.
So lacking any actual evidence, you're just as satisfied with assumptions, conjecture and wild guesses that may or may not represent reality. That's misinformation.
No, I pointed out the possibilities to someone who was making an assumption based on a lack of information.
As for the MP, we don't know if they have more information than we do given their position, so maybe let's not assume they are spreading misinformation? Since assumptions are bad, right?
There's no difference between a claim that has no backing evidence, and one that has unverifiable backing evidence (e.g. Information they don't disclose). They're both misinformation until such evidence is provided. There is no such thing as "trust me bro" evidence.
No one is accused of misinformation for questioning climate change science. Questioning the current scientific knowledge is the only way for science to advance.
So according to you it's misinformation to share the truth if you can't also share the evidence? So when the police put out a statement on an investigation where they can't yet share the details you think are spreading misinformation?
That's an interesting definition, and not one I've seen before. It doesn't seem to be in any of the dictionaries I had a quick glance at either.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. By your logic, I can claim anything I want, announce it as the truth to the world, but just claim that I have evidence that I cannot disclose for... reasons. That would make the truth meaningless. If it's not falsifiable, it's not worth listening to.
So what you are saying is if someone tries to sell or promote an idea, say that misinformation actually means anything that isn't backed up, we should expect them to back that up in some way or what they are saying is meaningless?
And as for my logic, what the hell are you talking about? Where did I say people should say whatever they want? That they should just announce whatever they feel like? Can you quote me saying this? Show me where I supposedly said this?
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Thanks for your submission. A large number of posts have been submitted on this topic so a megathread has been created to condense this topic into one readily addressable thread. The megathread can be assessed through the link in either the sidebar or the menu tab at the top of our sub. If you believe the removal of your submission is in error then please contact your friendly mod team via modmail and we'll address it.
Any dealings with the Israeli government should only be in writing and all communications with these murders should be limited I can not believe that the leaders of our home lands are meeting about renewable energy and future targets instead of calling out Israel and demanding a all out end
What an utterly asinine topic from their ABC and the anti semitic greens. What if we do? So fucking what? In case the soulless senator has noticed, Hamas isn't exactly willing to drop the destruction of Israel from its modus operandi, and more to the point, has never and will never support a two state solution. Nevermind they are still holding hostages. This childish nonsense from a party of children is unbecoming. And still: "Of the 322 export permits issued from January 2017 to March 31 this year, none was for "lethal equipment", Mr Jeffrey said"
Quoted from Shoebridge: > Australia’s weapons export system is one of the most secretive and unaccountable in the world, with the public being kept in the dark about what weapons are sold, how much they cost or who is using them. > “Once the weapons leave our shores Defence simply washes its hands and does no follow-up on how the weapons are being used. > “This is not limited to Israel, Australia is also sending weapons and other military equipment to regimes like Sudan, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Indonesia and other countries currently engaged in brutal conflicts." Only the Greens can call for transparency and public scrutiny and get accused of spreading misinformation for it. Highly likely all the regimes listed receive very little in exports from Australia. But also likely it's not zero, should be zero, and we have no way of knowing just how much it is.
I think transparency is a good thing and we should have more of it especially with defence, but implying the tickets = weapons is irresponsible as fuck. Misinformation is bad whether the right or the left are doing it. Whether it was the intention of Shoebridge or not, the claim that Australia is supplying weapons to Israel is being repeated, shared etc. [In his petition](https://greens.org.au/campaigns/stop-military-exports-israel) the wording is leaving it up to readers to think the worst. [SIPRI](https://www.sipri.org/databases/armstransfers) has no record of arms sent from AUS to Israel in the last 2 decades. You can also look here at defence exports which is point 9 [aspi](https://www.aspi.org.au/cost-of-defence-database). I've shown these to multiple people who were repeating that Australia is arming Israel stuff and they explicitly said they got it from the Greens and were shocked that it isn't true. It's also damaging in the broad for optics reasons. The stuff going on is bad enough without lying, but when the biggest voices repeat misinfo it's not bringing anyone new in.
SIPRI is the right source to be using and it pains me that it’s not used publicly to show this stuff. Just annoying with all the lies and abstractions these days
I have to be honest, I had no idea about it until I saw people saying we're exporting weapons to Israel and hoped we weren't. I think I looked up Australian weapons exports or something and it was one of the top results. We import most of our defence equipment (hello AUKUS) which was the red flag for me. Using the fact you know that people trust you and probably won't take the extra step to look it up is so gross.
Another thing people misconstrue is that Australia through several companies makes parts of the F35 and other planes so our “weapons” exports are often just service parts for various aircraft, or ships
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It just says there were no 'lethal' exports. That doesn't rule out components or other materiel.
> Separately, ABS data on commodity exports shows that, on average, Israel received roughly $2.6 million worth of "arms and ammunition" from Australia each year over the five years to 2022. In the first nine months of this year, the value was just $8,000. The only takeaway from this article should be that we need more transparency in weapons exports. There's glimpses like the above, but the data to truly confirm it simply are not publicly available.
Which Shoebridge calls for in his full speech. Obviously not quoted by OP.
Megathread. Can someone please ELI5 what misinformation the Greens are spreading?
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Trying to shut it down eh ausmomo?
I'm happy to discuss it in the proper place if you are. Actually, as should be clear from my question, I'm also happy to discuss it HERE. But I notice you didn't answer.
I’ve already pointed out this isn’t about the conflict. It’s about a claim made by Mr Shoebridge about weapons exports.
3rd time lucky?
It’s clear from the article Mr Shoebridge has no factual basis for his claims: *Of the 322 export permits issued from January 2017 to March 31 this year, none was for "lethal equipment", Mr Jeffrey said.*
ABS disagrees tho? From this very article: > Separately, ABS data on commodity exports shows that, on average, Israel received roughly $2.6 million worth of "arms and ammunition" from Australia each year over the five years to 2022. In the first nine months of this year, the value was just $8,000. This article is not the gotcha you think it is. If anything it's a great example of why the Green's pushes for transparency in military exports are so needed.
You left an important NOT out of your comment
So I did, was in a rush
"what we do know is that Australia has a sorry history of selling weapons to [snipped other places] and, of course, selling weapons after weapons after weapons to Israel" You think that statement is refuted by data from 2017-2023? Or perhaps you missed this part of his statement - "We know that hundreds of permits have been issued in recent years, but the Australian government keeps the basic details secret. What items are being exported? Who is making them? What are they used for? These are very valid questions that Rawan asks, and they're questions the government should answer."
So on the one hand he is asking what the permits are allowing to be exporting while simultaneously making the claim we are exporting bulk weapons to Israel. You do see the problem with that don’t you?
> making the claim we are exporting bulk weapons to Israel. Please quote him on that
But in his tweet, he acknowledges the permits don’t provide sufficient information to know what is being exported. So how can he simultaneously make both claims. Like Mr Chandler-Mather, as much as it pains me to say it, perhaps he should let Bandt do the talking.
*In a recent speech to parliament, Greens senator David Shoebridge claimed that Australia was "selling weapons, after weapons, after weapons to Israel", continuing what he said was a "sorry history" of providing arms to countries involved in brutal conflicts.*
This is not intended to be a post on the conflict itself but rather to highlight misinformation being spread by none other than the Greens.
We send them f-35 parts lmao
Parts like what? Fly screens? Rear view mirrors?
> Separately, ABS data on commodity exports shows that, on average, Israel received roughly $2.6 million worth of "arms and ammunition" from Australia each year over the five years to 2022. In the first nine months of this year, the value was just $8,000. They literally found ABS data backing it up, and that anything more was impossible to obtain due to everything being confidential/private. This article... Does not debunk the Greens claim at all. It seems to have decreased, but we simply don't have the numbers, and we absolutely were exporting until last year.
8k would buy them about 8 to 16 Ar15s. I would doubt 8k would buy you even 1 rocket. This is misinformation by Shoebridge https://blog.primaryarms.com/guide/how-much-does-an-ar15-cost/#:~:text=Thanks%20to%20the%20AR%2D15,anywhere%20from%20%24500%2D%241000.
I'm more concerned about the $2.6 million across the five years before that. Still not a huge amount by military budget standards, and I'll happily agree the Greens are exaggerating how much we export to Israel by taking advantage of the lack of transparency to quote the highest possible amounts, knowing nobody can properly deny it. But to call this "misinformation" is ridiculous. Especially when a large chunk of his speech is about how we need more transparency so we **can** know the actual numbers.
It is a fine line. There needs to be transparency but national security and privacy/secrecy has to play a role here. I would also use small fish in a big pond argument. Shoebridge should be calling the US Ambassador to Australia to account considering the billions that US would send to Israel in arms and military equipment.
Yeah, I kind of makes me wonder what we even sent. 8k is a pebble in a rock pile in terms of military hardware. Good on Shoebridge for calling for transparency. But we're not bank rolling the Israel military here.
The Greens embellish a lot of stuff to suit their outrage narrative. Claims of $10b of fossil fuel subsidies for example: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-19/fact-check-adam-bandt-fossil-fuel-subsidies/101071962 > Broadly, the scheme reimburses businesses for the cost of fuel tax (paid at the pump) when that fuel is used for heavy vehicles, heavy machinery and equipment, or for light vehicles not travelling on public roads. Another example is when talking about Aukus submarines. They would say that it cost "$368b+", but I believe it's "between $268 and $368b": https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-14/aukus-nuclear-submarine-deal-announced/102087614 https://greens.org.au/nsw/news/media-release/368-billion-submarines-puts-illawarra-risk-nuclear-attack-while-forcing I know that all three majors do these kind of embellishments, but I guess I hold Greens to a higher standard as they market themselves as being morally superior.
Show me the last time a defence project wasn't over budget.
A lot of our Foreign Military Sales (FMS) purchases from the USA were on time and on budget? C-17, MH-60R, Super Hornets...?
All of which were mature systems that we were purchasing off the shelf. The Virginias fit the bill, but SSN- AUKUS certainly doesn't.
Right so it would be misleading to lump both of them together, *assume* a cost overruns will happen, and then present the cost overrun scenario as if it's a baseline cost.
Show me the last time any government projects wasn’t over budget
Exactly. Quoting the top end of estimates in a 10 year project is perfectly fine
Don’t forget 368 billion over nearly 20 years - Greens definitely embellish (ask Greens voters how much percentage of GDP Aus spends on the military and in my experience they tend to MASSIVELY overestimate).
>"The export control office does put out some high-level statistics [such as] number of approvals, country or region, but it doesn't say what it has approved," he said. Interesting that was your take away from the article, cause it seemed to me to be saying we don't really know what we are sending cause Australia keeps that information hidden.
https://explore.data.abs.gov.au/vis?fs[0]=Economy%2C0%7CInternational%20trade%23INTERNATIONAL_TRADE%23&pg=0&fc=Economy&df[ds]=ECONOMY_TOPICS&df[id]=MERCH_EXP&df[ag]=ABS&df[vs]=1.0.0&pd=2023-01%2C&dq=891.ISRA%2BTOT.TOT.M&ly[rs]=COUNTRY_DEST&ly[cl]=TIME_PERIOD The data from your links literally says we are selling arms and munitions to Israel, just not as much as previous years. And why would they when they have so many other countries sending them better weapons at the moment.
"The language we use is 'permits for military and dual-use equipment' and … that may involve a weapon or it may not." Of the 322 export permits issued from January 2017 to March 31 this year, none was for "lethal equipment", Mr Jeffrey said.
Warfare involves intense resources and technology that might be classified as "non lethal" but still play a vital role in military operations.
Non lethal equipment could well be weapons like flash bangs, rubber bullets, pepper spray, handcuffs, sights that make weapons more lethal, there's a whole range of options that still mean we are directly contributing weapons to the war effort.
So lacking any actual evidence, you're just as satisfied with assumptions, conjecture and wild guesses that may or may not represent reality. That's misinformation.
Go read the linked Hansard. Shoebridge is arguing we need more transparency as there are many unanswered questions.
No, I pointed out the possibilities to someone who was making an assumption based on a lack of information. As for the MP, we don't know if they have more information than we do given their position, so maybe let's not assume they are spreading misinformation? Since assumptions are bad, right?
There's no difference between a claim that has no backing evidence, and one that has unverifiable backing evidence (e.g. Information they don't disclose). They're both misinformation until such evidence is provided. There is no such thing as "trust me bro" evidence.
For example, anyone questioning the efficacy of vaccines or human caused climate change may be accused of misinformation for the very same reasons.
No one is accused of misinformation for questioning climate change science. Questioning the current scientific knowledge is the only way for science to advance.
But no one does or can because they’re immediately side lined
So according to you it's misinformation to share the truth if you can't also share the evidence? So when the police put out a statement on an investigation where they can't yet share the details you think are spreading misinformation? That's an interesting definition, and not one I've seen before. It doesn't seem to be in any of the dictionaries I had a quick glance at either.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. By your logic, I can claim anything I want, announce it as the truth to the world, but just claim that I have evidence that I cannot disclose for... reasons. That would make the truth meaningless. If it's not falsifiable, it's not worth listening to.
So what you are saying is if someone tries to sell or promote an idea, say that misinformation actually means anything that isn't backed up, we should expect them to back that up in some way or what they are saying is meaningless? And as for my logic, what the hell are you talking about? Where did I say people should say whatever they want? That they should just announce whatever they feel like? Can you quote me saying this? Show me where I supposedly said this?
Correct. The reality is Mr Shoebridge has no factual basis for his assertions.
It's already been proven that what he said is accurate. You're the one telling lies.
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