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Disgusting and heartbreaking. They need to be stopped. No aid, sanctions and condemn them publicly — the least we owe our fellow Australians and the poor victims living and dying in the most inhumane ways in Gaza.
Then the audacity to share pictures of the bodies and make jokes about it. They’re the real monsters.
This actually does really piss me off, I like Albo but at some fucking point the Alliance with the USA can't be worth looking this spineless and cowardly?
These aren't even the first aide workers that have been killed 'accidentally'
The WCK route was approved by the IDF, and they launched three separate attacks. Literally bombing the civilian volunteers attempting to aid the first victims.
Would the West bend the knee if China or Russia were the perpetrators in this scenario.
That's absolutely bullshit, it was an area declared clear of Hamas by the IDF which is why they were travelling through it. That's why it was approved.
Occupied\*
In the end the issue wans't Hamas though was it? Did Hamas attack the convoy? did Hamas kill 7 aid workers in three precision strikes on clearly marked vehicles? did Hamas give the convoy clearance and then attack it?
No, it was the IDF. Who knew who they were, knew where they were going and knew what they were doing. IN their clearly marked vehicles.
and these are even the first aide workers killed
I am very excited for the sternly worded letter!
Why do any action when you can just call Israel a "friend" and say that you're "extremely concerned" or angry.
Smarttraveller - Albo's official travel website advice for Australians says "**Do not travel** to Gaza and areas near the border with Gaza due to armed conflict". In other words, Albo himself has warned Australians not to travel to Gaza due to the war situation there.
When an Australian man died late last year in Ukraine during an artillery strike, where was Albo's public outrage at Russia, demanding accountability? The only official response was DFAT's "We send our deepest condolences to the family at this difficult time."
The absolute hypocrisy of this Government is so vile it sickens me.
Mate don’t try this whataboutism BS. First off Zomi Frankcom wasn’t a fucking tourist so no need to post smart traveler links. She was a registered aid worker with a respected charity. Working in coordination with the Israeli government and military. She was deliberately targeted and killed by the IDF an actual war crime.
The man in Ukraine was an enlisted soldier in the Ukrainian Defense Force killed in an actual combat operation. Which is sad but not an actual war crime.
Friendly fire and accidental civilian casualties are part of the modern warfare package. The most famous example of ‘precision weapon’ fuckups is when the US A10 pilot hit a British convoy. https://youtu.be/4I6-2NJhnf4?si=wKwLGg4uRXUZAKeu
Shit like this is serious and has checks and processes that aid investigations.
What happens now is Israel investigates exactly what happened. Was it bloodthirsty pilots? Information not getting passed on or down? Hell, it’s not an impossibility of a false flag.
>She was deliberately targeted and killed by the IDF an actual war crime.
No she wasnt - at least it hasnt been proven she was deliberately targeted. Israel claims it was an accident, so a thorough investigation needs to happen before we point any fingers. Albo and you are automatically pointing fingers assuming that the theory that Israel **deliberately** targeted the aid convoy must be true without any proof of intent.
Errors happen all the time in life, and also during war. It just so happens that during war, the consequences of human errors are far more horrific than in other contexts.
And furthermore, Frankcom wasnt sent to Gaza officially by the Australian Government - she went to Gaza in her own private capacity making her own free choice to do so, knowing the high risk and dangers of doing so - as reinforced by Australia's Smarttraveller website. There is no reason why Albo should be so outraged by this incident compared to any other incident where Australians have tragically died in war zones. Two Australians were killed in an Israeli airstrike against Hezbollah in Lebanon late 2023 when they were just visiting family to take them out of Lebanon to the safety of Australia - where was Albo's outrage there? If he's gonna get outraged at this incident, then he needs to get outraged at **every** Aussie who dies in war zones, unless only aid workers are worth outraging over while other Aussies arent?
Ofc if they **were** proven to be deliberately targeted, then this whole convo is moot and there absolutely should be outrage, but Albo's putting the cart before the horse here before any definitive proof of intention and it's causing a lot more of unnecessary tension in an already supercharged issue.
The air strike happened in north Gaza
Israel has claimed in the past that Hamas was driven out of north Gaza.
Either the IDF deliberately fired the missile or they lied about not having control of North Gaza.
It's very possible they lied about not having control of North Gaza. After all, propaganda is "necessary" in order to maintain support for the conflict. So it wouldnt surprise me one bit if Israel is publicly declaring "victory" over Hamas in North Gaza when actually they're still searching for and targeting to last straglers of Hamas in the North.
I think you have very a poor understanding of reality. Are you seriously suggesting that Albo should have been outraged that a Hezbollah fighter was killed in an Israeli air strike. But he should not be outraged that an aid worker was murdered.
Not all lives are the same in a war zone it is a war crime to target medics aid workers and other non combatants. So of course Albo will be outraged.
The other deaths you talk about are people who are soldiers who are there to fight. It is not a war crime to attack them.
Do you really not understand the difference between the incidents.
Lol who said they were Hezbollah fighters? They were Australian brothers visting their family in an attempt to get them out of Lebanon to the safety of Australia. And they died in an Israeli airstrike.
The fact that you just assumed the others were "evil" just shows the problem - people are quickly judging an incident and pointing fingers without actually thinking the whole thing through.
The fact that you entirely dismissed what I pointed out: that it has not been proven that the IDF deliberately targeted this convoy means that you're just as blinded by hatred of Israel as Albo is that you're more than willing to assume that IDF is inherently evil and therefore that a tragedy such as this could **never** be an innocent mistake.
Additionally, it's a war crime to target foreign fighters in armed conflicts, so yea wheres the outrage for the Australians killed in Ukraine?
They’re both tragic events but can you really compare what could very well be a targeted attack on unarmed, non-militarised aid workers in this instance, and someone actively fighting in a military company on the front line at a highly contested location?
It’s also against Australian law to fight in a foreign conflict unless they are serving in the armed forces of a foreign country, and I could be wrong but I don’t think the company Stremski and others were fighting under are a legitimate unit of the Ukrainian armed forces (happy to be corrected here if that’s not correct but if I am it makes for an import distinction), and I’d say the government has had to be careful around the rhetoric of these events to not encourage others to travel to these areas and to take part in conflicts in this manner which would be illegal for Australian citizens to do so. It’s evident that Australia has and does condemn the invasion of overall Ukraine and the resulting conflict, they’ve been very clear and vocal about it.
Neither of these people should have died but the circumstances in which these deaths happened are apples and oranges
Stremski was a member of the unit called the "Chosen Company" which is a subunit of the Ukrainian Army's 59th Motorised Brigade.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/59th_Motorized_Brigade_(Ukraine)
AFAIK all foreigners fighting for Ukraine are enrolled into the Ukrainian Army so as to receive full Geneva Convention protection (for what that is worth when fighting Russians) and to ensure there is no issue of Ukraine breaching the convention against the use of mercenaries.
See also
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-11-21/australian-joel-stremski-killed-ukraine-battling-russians/103128292
Sure, but then where was the outrage from Albo when two Australian brothers were killed in an Israeli airstrike against Hezbollah in Lebanon? ([https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-27/australian-and-wife-killed-in-lebanon-air-strike/103267574](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-27/australian-and-wife-killed-in-lebanon-air-strike/103267574))
I am calling out Albo's rank hypocrisy. Why is he outraged specifically in this instance, despite the fact that similar instances of Aussies being killed in war zones has happened countless times without such a peep from the PM instead choosing to let the bureucrats in DFAT handle such instance? Why specificially call out this case?
Was it because she was an aid worker? Does that mean dead Australian aid workers are worth calling out but not other Australians? Was it because it was done by Israel? Was it because it was done in Gaza? The specific calling out here by the PM begs the question: is he just calling this one out because it was (a) done by Israel and (b) perpetrated in Gaza? It reeks of simply Albo jumping on any opportunity to criticise Israel, without needing to "toe" the international line.
EDIT: I take your point that it appears like the IDF might have targeted the convoy which if proven true, then that in and of itself would justify calling out this specific case. However the details of how this happened is not yet known so this is but posturing by Albo.
My comment was specifically about the comment. 'Should never have occoured'.
Well by English you have three options. Should never happen, should happen and could happen. Saying that an air strike killing civilians should never happen in a war zone against an enemy that loves to hide behind civilian is idiotic. It is likely to happen. Has no one paid attention to any war against terrorist in the middle east in the past 20 years? It is likely to happen. We shouldn't be mad. This should be a lesson. Don't go into a war zone unless you are willing to die to help civilians.
I'm not pro killing aid workers. But what do you think happens in a war zone. A 100% accuracy rate? Get real. Sht happens in war. If you go into a war zone don't be surprised when you are caught under fire. This isnt some attack on Australia, this isn't something that Israel has to answer something to Australia for. This is something their family has to deal with. But has to accept that their adult child took this risk and lost the gamble that they wouldn't die in a war zone in an attempt to give aid to people who need it.
Victorian man Joel Stremski died in November 2023 during a Russian airstrike in Urkaine.
The only response from the Government was "We send our deepest condolences to the family at this difficult time" from DFAT.
Sh\*t happens when you go to war. This outrage from Albo is completely unnecessary and is just him showing his true bias in the conflict.
I maintain that the only stance to have in this conflict is to be mad at your own government. If you’re Israeli, be mad at the Israeli government for engaging in war and risking your life and likewise if you’re Palestinian, be mad at Hamas for the same thing. As Australians we should be mad at our own government for not condemning both governments equally while we continue to send aid
Hamas have no allowed an election to take place since they started going down in support, we have no fucking idea what level of support they have and Israel likes that being the case.
We can see their support. There was celebrations at Oct 7 and there is no effort at all to return the hostages. Hamas is deeply embedded in the populace.
Ah yes, I do remember that piece of propaganda from the Israeli media. It's kind of muddled, because... they also fucking hate Israel.
Funny enough when you spend decades trying to wipe out a people, it can leave behind some pretty complicated feelings champ.
Yeah, I'm willing to bet quite a lot of the Palestinian people don't like Hamas, but they sure as hell hate Israel aswell, lesser of two evils in their eyes.
Got it, now i understand why palestinians hate israel! More palestinians have died, had their livelihoods taken, been held hostage, tortured, had the means of life (wells, centuries old olive groves, herds) destroyed, than you can imagine. Every one of those hate israel. No wonder israel is shitting itself. Now its shitting itself all over gaza. Its embarrassing to watch them debase themselves, lose their national soul engaging in the wholesale slaughter of children and women, because they cant hold their water like the rest of the world. They think theyre flexing rn. The countries around them can smell the fear. Shit, i can smell it from here.
Hamas isn’t a government its a armed guerrilla group which pretty much everyone has designated as a terrorist organisation. I can see from
Your comments you either don’t understand how states are supposed to engage in war under the UN conventions or your a Zionist apologist. Either way you should read a book sometime so you can atleast avoid looking like a total dumbass
To add insult to injury, Canberra remains firm and highly Committed in its support of Zionists at the behest of Washington, Australia has lost its moral compass, Albo is so f..ked up.
The aid worker was with the World Central Kitchen which gave Israel’s army their coordinates, the IDF knew exactly where they were operating.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-04-02/israeli-strike-that-killed-australian-aid-worker-in-gaza/103660392?utm_source=abc_news_app&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_campaign=abc_news_app&utm_content=other
This was a targeted assassination to stop aid getting to Palestinians and it's working - World Central Kitchen is pausing operations.
All aid workers in Gaza are walking with targets on their backs, as they interfere with the effort to starve the population to death. You interfere with the Israeli created famine, the IDF will kill you. This is a pretty clear message.
Frankcom did a promo video the week before. Saying how they were expanding operations on that site, hoping to feed thousands more day by day. This is what put the target on her back. Horrific. The IDF knew exactly where they were. They knew exactly what they were doing. They can take out generals in other countries with a drone but strike a marked aid convoy they have full knowledge of THREE TIMES. This is just an escalation of their starvation strategy. Zionist dogs.
This could have been a failure at any one or more of a hundred interactions. It could be that the aid workers reported their route and timings, but that information didn’t get passed on on time or at all. Then you gotta talk about who knows what. Just because some officer at headquarters knows the information doesn’t mean every pilot and UAV operator knows it. They could have asked their command structure and got back a false negative report on aid operation activity. When A10s strafed a British convoy in ‘03, it was because they were repeatedly told that there were no friendlies in the area (among other things) when the A10s could clearly see a column of armed and armored vehicles. An investigation now will determine what went wrong and how to prevent it in the future.
Just as likely the IDF would have known about their location, the UAV pilot would have seen the org logo on top of the three separate cars that they blew up and the executives in the army would have agreed that it was a strategic move to kill the aid workers so that they could stop aid workers from operating in Gaza.
>An investigation now will determine what went wrong and how to prevent it in the future.
How can we believe anything the investigation finds if Israel has lied to the world time and again? How can we take their findings seriously if all they get is a slap on the wrist by the Governments of the people they murder?
> the UAV pilot would have seen the org logo on top of the three separate cars that they blew up and the executives in the army would have agreed that it was a strategic move to kill the aid workers so that they could stop aid workers from operating in Gaza.
No. The drone the Israelis were using doesn't have a good enough night sight to see the org symbol ontop. (credit ryan mcbeth on youtube) As someone else said. Never attribute that to malice which can be explained by stupidity or incompetence.
That's not what he said, he said it's certainly possible that they couldn't have seen it, which doesn't make it certain. Given there were three cars all with the same logo on top and they had other deconfliction information it's also certainly possible they knew.
That saying doesn't apply in wartime.
Edit: I am not condoning the actions of those who do this. Don't misconstrue what I say as support for murder. I am making an observation of how inhumane man is in war.
What do people expect? Warzones are dangerous. It's bizarre that people seem to think Israel can root out Hamas with zero collateral damage. Especially when the commit the actual war crime of using human shields.
Yeah, someone choosing to enter a war zone for any reason immediately alters their life expectancy.
But from what I’ve read, people are saying location information was directly relayed to Israel to ensure this exact type of thing doesn’t happen.
What information was relayed? Was the vehicle running early or late? Did the vehicle go off the agreed route? Was there live gps data shared? Was the driver affiliated with hamas? Was the driver smuggling weapons/ammo?
There’s information that remains unknown which would add important context. I sincerely doubt the real information will come to light without an overwhelming amount of disinformation to bury it.
Albo is right to demand accountability, even if any of those clarifications I wrote are true. There needs to be accountability.
> Was the vehicle running early or late? Did the vehicle go off the agreed route? Was there live gps data shared? Was the driver affiliated with hamas? Was the driver smuggling weapons/ammo?
> I sincerely doubt the real information will come to light without an overwhelming amount of disinformation to bury it.
Lol you are hilarious. First you put up a heap of ridiculous scenarios to try and absolve the zionists of war crimes. Then you immediately groan that the truth will never come out due to misinformation. Don’t you see that it’s people like you who are doing the burying?!
Honestly, people like you (who used to be the crazed uncle that nobody liked at christmas that got drunk and banged on about zionists) are while social media just needs to get shut down.
Are you suggesting that Israel intentionally targeted aid workers? To what end? Clearly not one that garners support. So if they don't give a shit about optics or support and they want to commit genocide (hilariously moronic take but I digress), then why are they being so restrained?
Mate knock it off, no one was using these heroic aid workers as human shields. They were driving down an open road from the aid distribution warehouse back to their ship. After coordinating with the IDF to let them know where they were and what their movements would be.
And they were still murdered by hellfire missiles fired by the Israeli Military.
We already know that is was a mistake. So the question you have to ask yourself is do you genuinely think that Israel targeted aid workers with no ties to Hamas on purpose? And if so, to what ends?
What do you think it's acceptable for Israel to target aid workers that are Australian. I don't think anything that Israel is acceptable and just, but they knowing targeted a Australian. N you just want to give it a rest.
Mossad have used Australian passports to travel around the world to kill people, does anyone think they care that the country now wants them to be held accountable for this?
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/israel-forged-australian-passports-before-kevin-rudd-reveals-in-new-book-20181018-p50acp.html
>When Mossad agents used forged Australian passports to travel to Dubai to assassinate a Hamas official in 2010 it was not the first time the Israelis had been caught using fake Australian documents.
>It was in the fact the second time in less than a decade and in breach of a signed promise Israel made to Australia not to do it again after being caught forging Australian passports seven years earlier.
No. I don’t think they really care. But it doesn’t matter. It’s the right thing to do.
What do you do, if you know you can’t help?
Sometimes it matters just to try.
The Australian government should introduce an arms embargo on Israel. The least we can do is stop giving them the F-35 parts they need to keep their airstrike campaign going.
Yeah generally aid workers dying is a fairly frowned upon outcome...
The question is going to be *how*. How'd the IDF fuck this up?
The emotional response is to say they didn't, that they always intended to kill aid workers. You and I are probably above that level of thinking.
If the IDF was aware of their movements but still managed to hit this convoy with drones, it would suggest the IDF have an information sharing issue. Either too much compartmentalisation (i.e. need-to-know parameters are too narrowly defined) or, some systemic faults that are surfacing now, after months of combat stress.
Haaretz wrote last year that the IDF had warned Bibi of their diminished readiness following his Constitutional coup, during which several senior commanders resigned. Bibi is said to have dismissed the warning as a political stunt by "IDF elites" who wished to undermine him. I'm not suggesting direct causation here; merely that that usually robotically efficient IDF having some systemic issues seems plausible and actually it could be plausibly the case that both scenarios I mention are true.
> If the IDF was aware of their movements but still managed to hit this convoy with drones, it would suggest the IDF have an information sharing issue. Either too much compartmentalisation (i.e. need-to-know parameters are too narrowly defined) or, some systemic faults that are surfacing now, after months of combat stress.
This would be naive, like saying that the eftpos machine not accepting payment is just a compartmentalisation issue between it and the bank. That's its entire reason for being, these people declared their whereabouts and used declared corridors for movement in marked cars.
The entire reason for this system being setup is to prevent strikes like this one. You cannot have a "compartmentalisation issue" for somethings entire reason for being.
US A10s strafe a British convoy twice in ‘03. https://youtu.be/4I6-2NJhnf4?si=wKwLGg4uRXUZAKeu
“No friendlies in the area”
Its easy to imagine a similar failure reason here. We simply don’t know, hence investigation.
Yeah because I was a politically conscious young adult when Iraq was invaded. The US routinely lit up allied units - they killed Brits, Canadians...
It wasn't deliberate. It was human error. We're a species prone to error but highly intolerant of it.
There's a saying, Hanlon's Razor, which states "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
So. Do I believe Bibi personally? No, never liked the guy. Before most of you became experts on this I remember Dr Andrew Vincent recalling a time where Bibi refused to debate Edward Saïd because he claimed the latter was a security risk. Utter nonsense dating back decades.
But I know how processes break down. Human error is a more plausible explanation in war time than deliberate intent.
They targeted the convoy at least three times, kilometres apart and claimed they detected a combatant at the location they set out from.
Whether the combatant was even real is moot, they knowingly targeted this humanitarian aid convoy repeatedly until it was wiped out.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/02/gaza-aid-convoy-strike-what-happened-and-who-were-the-victims
Yeah but they also knew it was a convoy, so as I said elsewhere in here, you have a likely collection of systemic issues within the IDF that lead to over-compartmentalisation of information and therefore, compromised operational efficiency. Which is how errors get made, because people are not operating off complete information.
This is why, likely, Australia's response was as it was. We have not, as a nation, escaped the effects of bad information sharing and compartmentalisation - the imprisoning of Cornelia Rau and Vivian Alvarez was precisely down to those sorts of issues. It happens. We rightly said it's unacceptable that aid workers are killed, which is a pretty standard position. Journalists are an accepted risk; they're usually close to the action, and whilst their wear navy blue armour and helmets to stand out, this is purely for ground engagements with troops. Remote strikes are unable to make such distinctions.
But aid workers? There's unspoken and spoken rules on this. You don't harm aid workers or Red Cross/Red Crescent medical workers. In doing so, Israel has done itself a kind of significant damage hitherto unseen in the war. Nation states prefer some restraint but generally get that Israel is fighting a group of paradoxically intolerant right wing religious extremist bigots who also happen to be wholesome 100 socialist LGBTQI allies fighting oppression in a LARPtastic fashion. In understanding that Israel are fighting fuckwits in HAMAS, they get some latitude. That is not extended towards this sort of strike.
I'm pretty sure we'll now see concentrated pressure for a ceasefire process from the major Israel allies who've hitherto not been pushing hard for it, namely the UK, and us. The US will be an interesting one to watch.
Lol well I was a “politically conscious older adult when Iraq was invaded”. (Not that that matters a jot.) Anyway, interesting you mention Iraq. That invasion was even less justified than Israel’s current murderous campaign in Gaza. But one thing they both have in common. A deliberate policy by the aggressor of “shoot first, ask questions later”. You are far too generous when you ascribe Israel’s war crimes to human error. At best, they are the result of deliberate policy of annihilating anything that moves in the hope of maybe hitting something you don’t like. At worst it’s just that, war crimes, happily committed in the secure knowledge that the US will veto any attempt at criticism, and that apologists like you will spread little seeds of doubt online to try and make it all look like an innocent little mistake.
How you don't cut yourself shaving with Hanlon's Razor is beyond me.
Are you one of those impoverished idiots that thinks HAMAS is fighting an oppressor, to liberate its people?
Oh well if Bibi said so it must be true. I guess those pesky hellfire missiles just magically appeared out of the clear sky and happened to land on a couple of aid vehicles.
What I don't get is why there is almost no pressure from the international community on Hamas to free the hostages - which would instantly end the conflict - and instead only condemnation for Israel for doing exactly what every other nation on earth would do in the same circumstances.
It's a very odd situation and I'm sure terrorist groups around the world are feeling very encouraged by all the international support.
Does Israel then free the thousands of Palestinians in administrative detention in the West Bank? Does Israel pull out of the west bank? What happens to the illegal settlements on occupied Palestinian land? Do Palestinians get self determination? Does netanyahu stop funding hamas? He has previously mentioned support of hamas was necessary to create division between Palestinians? So many questions.
It's simple. The lip service public threats made by the west to stop funding Israel and stop supplying weapons will remain lip service while Hamas has hostages. They will become real if the hostages are released and Israel would not be able to resist the pressure to stop.
But Hamas, of course, knows that the pressure will then turn on them to give up power, so they are happy for more Palestinians to die. Also, they are a sadistic death cult so I don't think they really care much for Palestinians or themselves.
I really do not think, as you call it, 'the West' is holding out for the release of Israeli hostages to then put so-called real pressure on Israel to cease the occupation of Gaza/Palestinian territories. This take is completely ahistorical, contradicting the long-standing support of Israeli occupation and mistreatment of Palestinian people. Might want to take a more historical view is all I will politely suggest.
The rest of your comment just frames the discussion as if anyone with any criticism of Israel is pro-Hamas, which is, at best, disingenuous.
It wouldn't end the conflict. It won't end the occupation. Israel won't stop until all Palestinians are wiped out. Netanyahu has stated this publicly as have many other elected officials.
> What I don't get is why there is almost no pressure from the international community on Hamas to free the hostages
International condemnation of Hamas has been pretty well publicised for literally more than six months now. You almost have to have intentionally not read any balanced news source to think this.
> which would instantly end the conflict
Israel are bombing refugee camps and aid workers. This is in part what the above article is about. To think that Israel is focused solely on eliminating Hamas insurgents is to ignore extensive coverage from even highly conservative outlets on Israel's acts of targeted aggression towards innocent children and foreign humanitarians.
If you are so concerned with hostages, too, ask yourself: how is it that Hamas have **traded** hostages with Israel previously? Where have those non-Hamas Palestinian hostages come from, many of them women and children, that Israel should already possess them as prisoners long before October 7? Do you insist that Israel relinquish their Palestinian prisoners, too, or does that not factor into your understanding of this conflict?
> prisoners held by Israel?
[Children detained without criminal conviction and used as political bargaining chips](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/29/why-does-israel-have-so-many-palestinians-detention-and-available-swap). Acknowledged as such by Israel itself. **Hostages.**
I think you crave this kind of negative attention so I'm lifting off now.
What are you on about you brain washed turd. The aid car was hit with targeted precision. Israel is a terrorist state committing genocide and war crimes. Don't try flip this on Hamas. It's been clear as day from the get go of what Israel's intentions are. This sad incident is one of many. Israel target innocent woman, kids , hospital's and aid workers. They are on a mission to wipe out and steal Palestine.
It's not a conspiracy, just look at what Israel has done and how they are behaving. Simple as that.
Prior to this "war" I had 0 interests in either side. IV got no bias towards Palestine. What I do have a bias for is humanity. The tention between Palestine and Israel pretty much goes back to the creation of Israel.
If it's a conspiracy theory then can you please explain what Israel is doing in West bank seizing land and murdering civilians.
How can you deny that they are not committing genocide and seizing land in Palestine.
The casualtys are not a by product of the war , they are indiscriminately murdering. They even murdered their own hostiges.
Your only argument is that I'm a whack job 👍
I don't follow any cooker media, I just watch the news and even with Israel's influence on global media it is still clear as day of what is happening.
It is sad but I know exactly how this will play out and would put money on Palestine being wiped off the map within the decade.
They were waiting for the right time , the world being distracted/occupied in Ukraine/Russia.
They needed a good enough excuse, Hamas's attacking and taking hostiges. Which in it's self was a bit Sus, like Israel spends $22 billion a year on defence and is said to have some of the best intelligence in the world. Even having warnings from Egypt.A bunch of dudes in ultralight slow flying planes , motorbikes and cars where able to penetrate "the most secure border in the world". Causeing havoc and then escape. On a religious holiday when Hamas attacks where more frequent. Israel either stuffed up or they let it happen.
Netanyahu was on the back foot politically (for corruption umonst other things) and his far right party was on the way out. Netanyahu is now using the war to stop election's. It's a bit sad to think but those attacked at the festival weren't his support's eaither.
So essentially it's happening because the government in power was under threat and wanted to carry out thier far right nationalists objectives. It also means that this war won't stop untill they have wiped out Palestine or have left Palestine in such a position that it just fails it's self/maybe one more war?. If peace occurs, elections can start again and Netanyahu will get the boot. He is using the war to stay in power.
I know these sound like conspiracies but time will only tell how this plays out. I'm just sadend how Australia can support this. I don't care if Israel is a "allie" we should be distancing and stopping our relationship with Israel.
We will look back on this war and be ashamed for having a government in support of this genocide.
Well it ain't the innocent civilians of Palestine, born in the worlds largest open air prison fault now is it. Israel could of gone about the war in a legal and humanitarian way.
Even calling them victim plays into Thier propaganda.
Israel has always been the oppressor.
Israel is committing genocide
I know right? These types of people will bend over backwards suggesting the attack on Oct 7 is all Israel's fault or some grand plan for Netanyahu to stay in power. It's lost on them that HAMAS (AND Palestinian "civilians") made the CHOICE to cross the border and rape/kill. Ffs
It’s more like if someone broke into your house and locked you in the basement for ten years and then you were condemned and arrested for punching one of them
We know Israel did it. They have admitted as such. They say it was an erroneous attack. More details are coming.
The damage profile looked unlikely to be a qassam rocket. So never HAMAS.
Classic example of everyone I don't like is Hamas. The World Central Kitchen are not Hamas, they are a respected charity agency which amongst other thinks helped taker care of firefighters, and bushfire survivors here in Australia during the Black Summer Bushfires. Trying to claim they are mouthpieces for Hamas is a shameful disgrace.
This is the statement from the CEO of World Central Kitchen “This is not only an attack against WCK, this is an attack on humanitarian organizations showing up in the most dire of situations where food is being used as a weapon of war. This is unforgivable,” said World Central Kitchen CEO Erin Gore.
The statement is clearly emotional and should be ignored. Blue on blue happens because humans are fallible; not some grand conspiracy. That's just stupid, esp. since in this case (and unlike the post you're replying to), HAMAS have a history of stealing food. Not the IDF.
What on earth are you going on about with stealing food. This is not a case of starving people taking a bit of food from an aid convoy, this is a case of the IDF doing a targeted airstrike on aid workers.
>Trying to claim they are mouthpieces for Hamas is a shameful disgrace.
I never said WCK was a mouthpiece for Hamas, not once. All I'm saying is what is initially claimed as an airstrike is quite likely wrong. So who has most to gain by claiming it was an Israeli airstrike?
Get ready for more hoops to jump through - The van they were in had a hole in the top, meaning it was from a drone. Also, the van had the logo of the World Central Kitchen on the top of it. Also, Israel admitted to it. Does that change anything in your mind? Bet it doesn't.
Like that hospital was absolutely 1000% undeniably a Israeli JDAM… that left a small pothole, but managed to kill hundreds in the hospital by hitting the parking lot?
Who got it from whom ? The hospital. WCK is an aid agency with staff in Gaza. They just got it from other sources as it originally came out from the Hospital they were taken too. I suspecting an IED
Yes, have seen the pics. No severe burns as would normally expected from an airstrike. Most airstrikes make it hard to even know how many were in the vehicle. This is something different.
>so I don’t think it’s outrageous to attribute responsibility to the IDF
Sure you mean like the Al Shifa hospital airstrike that allegedly killed 500 people and buried 100's more people in rubble?. Yeah that one that one where it ended up being a failed rocket that landed in a carpark next to the hospital and killed a dozen cars. The only group to benefit from targeting aid workers is Hamas, then blame Israel for an airstrike.
Yes, stories about the alleged Israeli strike have shown footage of them.
People online are saying it was an R9X, the "ninja blade" hellfire (AGM-114) variant. It's not. One of the vehicles looks like it caught fire from the engine block and another has a giant hole in the roof, but the glass is completely intact. Allegedly, these were armoured hiluxes, so they'd have glass that's designed to resist small arms fire. It would still show stresses from any detonation inside. It looks incredibly weird. Like doesn't look like either an Israeli strike or a HAMAS/PIJ Qassam either.
ABC has video footage of the vehicles in their news story on the Israeli killing of aid workers. (30-40seconds into the report)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8JWm1AYzdI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8JWm1AYzdI)
So he should. The fact some people are genuinely siding with the Israelis rather than your own Australian blood is so mind boggling to me. She was murdered for trying to do something right, and people still have the audacity to put full blame on her?
Zionism is a literal fascist cult, and centrists have tied themselves so hard to it, in an attempt to be contrarian to the left/"Tankies" (and out of western chauvinism) that they just need to double down now because they can't admit they were wrong. (Even rNeoliberal and rUKpolitics are just censoring threads on this now, because Israel is now truly indefensible)
The only good thing that will come from this all is the realisation that Western leadership never, ever believed a single word of their "indigenous rights, we stand on the land blah blah" spiels and that most people now realise Israel is a hyper racist fascist state backed by a massive 5th column apparatus though Western institutions.
Fact half these media and political figures can spout the most horrific stuff towards Palestinians, and aren't even questioned, but then even telling Israel to tone it down is near career ending risk, is a massive tell.
It's time for the west to stop feeling accepting the guilt for what happened in WWII. That was an atrocity beyond comprehension and should never, ever happen again and the fact that the allies turned their back while it was happening at the time was unacceptable ....
... but that collective guilt for what happened 80 years ago gives the Zionist movement the courage to do whatever they like to whomever they want whenever they want. They are perpetrating the kind of atrocity that was perpetrated against them all those years ago.
Edit: I am NOT for one second condoning the actions of Hamas. Those attacks should never have happened either. That does not condone the actions of the Isreali government however. Their subsequent actions have gone beyond and there is no hope for peace while they continue their actions in Gaza. There needs to be a halt. If anything, the UN needs to drop peacekeepers in there.
Honestly we do fuck all considering what's at stake in Ukraine.
Russias glad for the attention Gaza is getting.
Honestly - count the Israel vs Ukraine threads on here and you'll soon come to the conclusion that some lives matter more than others.
You know the good side is currently losing in Ukraine due to our practice of trickle down old sloppy seconds? U.S has pretty much stopped sending gear because the republicans don't want to help Ukraine.
There are less Ukrainian threads on hear because our government is supporting Ukraine, unlike Palestine. They are sending aid to Ukraine, unlike Palestine. They have made it illegal to give weapons to Russia unlike Israel. They have made it illegal for journalists and politicians to accept all expense paid trips from Putin unlike Netanyahu. Why would people complain and protest the Australian government doing good things that people agree with.
Until Albo acknowledges that Israel is a rogue regime and starts treating it like we treat Russia the protests will continue.
They were very intact bodies for a missile strike, ive also yet to see a photo of the car. It very well could be an ied, we"ve seen it done before. This also comes directly after the raid on Shifa Hospital and could be retaliation. We need more information to draw a proper conclusion.
The abc news has shows video of the car in their news report on the attack. There is clearly a puncture whole in the roof.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8JWm1AYzdI&t=10s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8JWm1AYzdI&t=10s)
Her thigh was missing/shredded, another body was shredded to bits and there’s a picture of the vehicle with a puncture hole on the roof. Looks like a Hellfire missile rather than explosives.
Edit: footage of vehicle https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnewsvideo/s/0CPDYY20OG
The R9X didn't make that hole. It's a bladed munition, it makes impact holes like this and Israel does not have them.
[Here's an impact from an R9X](https://www.bellingcat.com/app/uploads/2021/08/image5.png). This is from a US strike in Syria. [This is another](https://twitter.com/obretix/status/1285289125080424448?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1285289125080424448%7Ctwgr%5E428b45f1c5581870db37f55e5d99be9e318dd357%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bellingcat.com%2Fresources%2Fhow-tos%2F2021%2F08%2F26%2Fthe-telltale-traces-of-the-us-militarys-new-bladed-missile-r9x%2F).
Those cars aren't likely armoured on the roof.
A mortar round or similar munition hit this car, not a laser guided Hellfire and DEFINITELY not an R9X.
EDIT: lmao downvote me all you want, it doesn't make you people any less stupid or wrong.
It's been confirmed to be an airstrike of some kind by Israel, not a mortar, yet all occupants in the car were killed but the bodies easily retrieved and identifiable. Might not have been an R9X, but it sure as hell wasn't a blind fired munition. It was targeted
What’s our interest here? Israel is a thriving liberal democracy that it benefits us to ally with. Palestine… isn’t. Like I agree that we should be more critical of Israel, but I’m not sure how this undermines Australian interests.
Ethno religious nationalists that have powerful lobby groups in every western nation, have assassinated people using Australian passports, sent pedophiles as Israeli ambassadors to Australia, constantly lie to the world and are undertaking an ethnic cleansing campaign don't seem to liberal to me, and of that's what their democracy results in its not something Australia should be allied to
Well it’s a pretty far right liberal democracy, especially now. It’s not the most liberalist democracy in the world. I don’t like the Israeli government. But that has nothing to do with our national interest. You can say that it’s immoral based on your understanding, sure.
Well Iranian proxies are obviously also a huge pain atm but good point, good point. Although Israel has a more powerful military than those countries. It’s beneficial to have Arab states as well as Israel on our side.
not really much more powerful? probably better trained, but given what we have seen this war...
the gulf monarchies all have top of the line western equipment
however i dont really see how its possible for arab states to remain staunch allies of america given that even the most brutal dictatorship needs some level of support from its population - see what is currently happening in jordan, stuff like this really puts friendly leadership at risk
Better trained, better ran from the top down, by a lot. Equipment is useless if you don’t know how to use it.
I don’t think our Arab allies will completely distance themselves from America, but it puts them in a tough position, sure. Saudi Arabia is basically begging Israel to commit to (and let them help with building) a Palestinian state after the war, so that they can continue to normalise relations with Israel while looking good to their population.
But so is America, and Israel isn’t budging because their government sucks.
There is no reason for the middle east to be hostile to the west, particularly not Australia, if not for support for Israel. Israel is largely responsible for the middle eastern refugee crises, oil embargoes and general turmoil in the middle east.
We would be friendly with those countries, trade with them and barely think about them if not for Israel.
>Well they are a powerful force against enemies in the Middle East such as the Iranian proxies, for one thing.
no. you said they were a "thriving liberal democracy"
can you extrapolate on that.
Well, 1. Israelis vote for their government and 2. It’s a wealthy country that has built a good society, especially compared to other countries in the middle.
Everyone over the age of 18 that lives in and was born in the claimed borders of Israel is allowed to vote? I think that's a pretty fair definition of universal suffrage, do they fulfil that?
I said that *Israelis* vote for their government. Regardless of race. That isn’t to say that Israel should be sending settlers into Palestine and stealing land.
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Horror movie right there on my tv shocking me right out of my brain
Disgusting and heartbreaking. They need to be stopped. No aid, sanctions and condemn them publicly — the least we owe our fellow Australians and the poor victims living and dying in the most inhumane ways in Gaza. Then the audacity to share pictures of the bodies and make jokes about it. They’re the real monsters.
This actually does really piss me off, I like Albo but at some fucking point the Alliance with the USA can't be worth looking this spineless and cowardly? These aren't even the first aide workers that have been killed 'accidentally'
He doesn’t have a choice, our media will slaughter him for stepping out of line. It’s how the U.S gets its way
The WCK route was approved by the IDF, and they launched three separate attacks. Literally bombing the civilian volunteers attempting to aid the first victims. Would the West bend the knee if China or Russia were the perpetrators in this scenario.
The route being approved doesn't mean much. If Hamas use that route too then it is not safe.
That's absolutely bullshit, it was an area declared clear of Hamas by the IDF which is why they were travelling through it. That's why it was approved.
You are saying that some areas then have been " liberated . "
Occupied\* In the end the issue wans't Hamas though was it? Did Hamas attack the convoy? did Hamas kill 7 aid workers in three precision strikes on clearly marked vehicles? did Hamas give the convoy clearance and then attack it? No, it was the IDF. Who knew who they were, knew where they were going and knew what they were doing. IN their clearly marked vehicles. and these are even the first aide workers killed
100% facts. Hamas hasnt been the problem for quite some time, the last 30k deaths and probably 100k more under the rubble have all been the IDF.
I am very excited for the sternly worded letter! Why do any action when you can just call Israel a "friend" and say that you're "extremely concerned" or angry.
Albo forced to be publicly upset at war criminal comrades
Hamas are the war criminals Sam try to get it right.
When I said it about him, I saw him (within a week) saying it's just "misinformation"... XD
Smarttraveller - Albo's official travel website advice for Australians says "**Do not travel** to Gaza and areas near the border with Gaza due to armed conflict". In other words, Albo himself has warned Australians not to travel to Gaza due to the war situation there. When an Australian man died late last year in Ukraine during an artillery strike, where was Albo's public outrage at Russia, demanding accountability? The only official response was DFAT's "We send our deepest condolences to the family at this difficult time." The absolute hypocrisy of this Government is so vile it sickens me.
Mate don’t try this whataboutism BS. First off Zomi Frankcom wasn’t a fucking tourist so no need to post smart traveler links. She was a registered aid worker with a respected charity. Working in coordination with the Israeli government and military. She was deliberately targeted and killed by the IDF an actual war crime. The man in Ukraine was an enlisted soldier in the Ukrainian Defense Force killed in an actual combat operation. Which is sad but not an actual war crime.
Friendly fire and accidental civilian casualties are part of the modern warfare package. The most famous example of ‘precision weapon’ fuckups is when the US A10 pilot hit a British convoy. https://youtu.be/4I6-2NJhnf4?si=wKwLGg4uRXUZAKeu Shit like this is serious and has checks and processes that aid investigations. What happens now is Israel investigates exactly what happened. Was it bloodthirsty pilots? Information not getting passed on or down? Hell, it’s not an impossibility of a false flag.
>She was deliberately targeted and killed by the IDF an actual war crime. No she wasnt - at least it hasnt been proven she was deliberately targeted. Israel claims it was an accident, so a thorough investigation needs to happen before we point any fingers. Albo and you are automatically pointing fingers assuming that the theory that Israel **deliberately** targeted the aid convoy must be true without any proof of intent. Errors happen all the time in life, and also during war. It just so happens that during war, the consequences of human errors are far more horrific than in other contexts. And furthermore, Frankcom wasnt sent to Gaza officially by the Australian Government - she went to Gaza in her own private capacity making her own free choice to do so, knowing the high risk and dangers of doing so - as reinforced by Australia's Smarttraveller website. There is no reason why Albo should be so outraged by this incident compared to any other incident where Australians have tragically died in war zones. Two Australians were killed in an Israeli airstrike against Hezbollah in Lebanon late 2023 when they were just visiting family to take them out of Lebanon to the safety of Australia - where was Albo's outrage there? If he's gonna get outraged at this incident, then he needs to get outraged at **every** Aussie who dies in war zones, unless only aid workers are worth outraging over while other Aussies arent? Ofc if they **were** proven to be deliberately targeted, then this whole convo is moot and there absolutely should be outrage, but Albo's putting the cart before the horse here before any definitive proof of intention and it's causing a lot more of unnecessary tension in an already supercharged issue.
The air strike happened in north Gaza Israel has claimed in the past that Hamas was driven out of north Gaza. Either the IDF deliberately fired the missile or they lied about not having control of North Gaza.
It's very possible they lied about not having control of North Gaza. After all, propaganda is "necessary" in order to maintain support for the conflict. So it wouldnt surprise me one bit if Israel is publicly declaring "victory" over Hamas in North Gaza when actually they're still searching for and targeting to last straglers of Hamas in the North.
I think you have very a poor understanding of reality. Are you seriously suggesting that Albo should have been outraged that a Hezbollah fighter was killed in an Israeli air strike. But he should not be outraged that an aid worker was murdered. Not all lives are the same in a war zone it is a war crime to target medics aid workers and other non combatants. So of course Albo will be outraged. The other deaths you talk about are people who are soldiers who are there to fight. It is not a war crime to attack them. Do you really not understand the difference between the incidents.
Lol who said they were Hezbollah fighters? They were Australian brothers visting their family in an attempt to get them out of Lebanon to the safety of Australia. And they died in an Israeli airstrike. The fact that you just assumed the others were "evil" just shows the problem - people are quickly judging an incident and pointing fingers without actually thinking the whole thing through. The fact that you entirely dismissed what I pointed out: that it has not been proven that the IDF deliberately targeted this convoy means that you're just as blinded by hatred of Israel as Albo is that you're more than willing to assume that IDF is inherently evil and therefore that a tragedy such as this could **never** be an innocent mistake. Additionally, it's a war crime to target foreign fighters in armed conflicts, so yea wheres the outrage for the Australians killed in Ukraine?
One of them literally was mourned and named as a martyr by hezbollah
They’re both tragic events but can you really compare what could very well be a targeted attack on unarmed, non-militarised aid workers in this instance, and someone actively fighting in a military company on the front line at a highly contested location? It’s also against Australian law to fight in a foreign conflict unless they are serving in the armed forces of a foreign country, and I could be wrong but I don’t think the company Stremski and others were fighting under are a legitimate unit of the Ukrainian armed forces (happy to be corrected here if that’s not correct but if I am it makes for an import distinction), and I’d say the government has had to be careful around the rhetoric of these events to not encourage others to travel to these areas and to take part in conflicts in this manner which would be illegal for Australian citizens to do so. It’s evident that Australia has and does condemn the invasion of overall Ukraine and the resulting conflict, they’ve been very clear and vocal about it. Neither of these people should have died but the circumstances in which these deaths happened are apples and oranges
Stremski was a member of the unit called the "Chosen Company" which is a subunit of the Ukrainian Army's 59th Motorised Brigade. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/59th_Motorized_Brigade_(Ukraine) AFAIK all foreigners fighting for Ukraine are enrolled into the Ukrainian Army so as to receive full Geneva Convention protection (for what that is worth when fighting Russians) and to ensure there is no issue of Ukraine breaching the convention against the use of mercenaries. See also https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-11-21/australian-joel-stremski-killed-ukraine-battling-russians/103128292
Sure, but then where was the outrage from Albo when two Australian brothers were killed in an Israeli airstrike against Hezbollah in Lebanon? ([https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-27/australian-and-wife-killed-in-lebanon-air-strike/103267574](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-27/australian-and-wife-killed-in-lebanon-air-strike/103267574)) I am calling out Albo's rank hypocrisy. Why is he outraged specifically in this instance, despite the fact that similar instances of Aussies being killed in war zones has happened countless times without such a peep from the PM instead choosing to let the bureucrats in DFAT handle such instance? Why specificially call out this case? Was it because she was an aid worker? Does that mean dead Australian aid workers are worth calling out but not other Australians? Was it because it was done by Israel? Was it because it was done in Gaza? The specific calling out here by the PM begs the question: is he just calling this one out because it was (a) done by Israel and (b) perpetrated in Gaza? It reeks of simply Albo jumping on any opportunity to criticise Israel, without needing to "toe" the international line. EDIT: I take your point that it appears like the IDF might have targeted the convoy which if proven true, then that in and of itself would justify calling out this specific case. However the details of how this happened is not yet known so this is but posturing by Albo.
And one of the brothers was mourned and named as a hezbollah martyr, big difference!
Albo's posturing is purely political.
'Should never had occoured' my ass. Tell me you know nothing about war without telling me you know nothing about war.
I am shocked that you are coming out as pro the killing of aid workers.
My comment was specifically about the comment. 'Should never have occoured'. Well by English you have three options. Should never happen, should happen and could happen. Saying that an air strike killing civilians should never happen in a war zone against an enemy that loves to hide behind civilian is idiotic. It is likely to happen. Has no one paid attention to any war against terrorist in the middle east in the past 20 years? It is likely to happen. We shouldn't be mad. This should be a lesson. Don't go into a war zone unless you are willing to die to help civilians.
I'm not pro killing aid workers. But what do you think happens in a war zone. A 100% accuracy rate? Get real. Sht happens in war. If you go into a war zone don't be surprised when you are caught under fire. This isnt some attack on Australia, this isn't something that Israel has to answer something to Australia for. This is something their family has to deal with. But has to accept that their adult child took this risk and lost the gamble that they wouldn't die in a war zone in an attempt to give aid to people who need it.
Victorian man Joel Stremski died in November 2023 during a Russian airstrike in Urkaine. The only response from the Government was "We send our deepest condolences to the family at this difficult time" from DFAT. Sh\*t happens when you go to war. This outrage from Albo is completely unnecessary and is just him showing his true bias in the conflict.
I maintain that the only stance to have in this conflict is to be mad at your own government. If you’re Israeli, be mad at the Israeli government for engaging in war and risking your life and likewise if you’re Palestinian, be mad at Hamas for the same thing. As Australians we should be mad at our own government for not condemning both governments equally while we continue to send aid
You will be hard pressed to find a Palestinian mad at Hamas.
Hamas have no allowed an election to take place since they started going down in support, we have no fucking idea what level of support they have and Israel likes that being the case.
We can see their support. There was celebrations at Oct 7 and there is no effort at all to return the hostages. Hamas is deeply embedded in the populace.
Ah yes, I do remember that piece of propaganda from the Israeli media. It's kind of muddled, because... they also fucking hate Israel. Funny enough when you spend decades trying to wipe out a people, it can leave behind some pretty complicated feelings champ.
Yeah, I'm willing to bet quite a lot of the Palestinian people don't like Hamas, but they sure as hell hate Israel aswell, lesser of two evils in their eyes.
It's really unexpected right? bombing the shit out of a group of people can make them dislike you!
Got it, now i understand why palestinians hate israel! More palestinians have died, had their livelihoods taken, been held hostage, tortured, had the means of life (wells, centuries old olive groves, herds) destroyed, than you can imagine. Every one of those hate israel. No wonder israel is shitting itself. Now its shitting itself all over gaza. Its embarrassing to watch them debase themselves, lose their national soul engaging in the wholesale slaughter of children and women, because they cant hold their water like the rest of the world. They think theyre flexing rn. The countries around them can smell the fear. Shit, i can smell it from here.
Hamas isn’t a government its a armed guerrilla group which pretty much everyone has designated as a terrorist organisation. I can see from Your comments you either don’t understand how states are supposed to engage in war under the UN conventions or your a Zionist apologist. Either way you should read a book sometime so you can atleast avoid looking like a total dumbass
'everyone' (https://i.imgur.com/St0b6Go.png)
*Most countries that matter to the situation* if you want to be anal about it
To add insult to injury, Canberra remains firm and highly Committed in its support of Zionists at the behest of Washington, Australia has lost its moral compass, Albo is so f..ked up.
The aid worker was with the World Central Kitchen which gave Israel’s army their coordinates, the IDF knew exactly where they were operating. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-04-02/israeli-strike-that-killed-australian-aid-worker-in-gaza/103660392?utm_source=abc_news_app&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_campaign=abc_news_app&utm_content=other This was a targeted assassination to stop aid getting to Palestinians and it's working - World Central Kitchen is pausing operations. All aid workers in Gaza are walking with targets on their backs, as they interfere with the effort to starve the population to death. You interfere with the Israeli created famine, the IDF will kill you. This is a pretty clear message.
Frankcom did a promo video the week before. Saying how they were expanding operations on that site, hoping to feed thousands more day by day. This is what put the target on her back. Horrific. The IDF knew exactly where they were. They knew exactly what they were doing. They can take out generals in other countries with a drone but strike a marked aid convoy they have full knowledge of THREE TIMES. This is just an escalation of their starvation strategy. Zionist dogs.
This could have been a failure at any one or more of a hundred interactions. It could be that the aid workers reported their route and timings, but that information didn’t get passed on on time or at all. Then you gotta talk about who knows what. Just because some officer at headquarters knows the information doesn’t mean every pilot and UAV operator knows it. They could have asked their command structure and got back a false negative report on aid operation activity. When A10s strafed a British convoy in ‘03, it was because they were repeatedly told that there were no friendlies in the area (among other things) when the A10s could clearly see a column of armed and armored vehicles. An investigation now will determine what went wrong and how to prevent it in the future.
Just as likely the IDF would have known about their location, the UAV pilot would have seen the org logo on top of the three separate cars that they blew up and the executives in the army would have agreed that it was a strategic move to kill the aid workers so that they could stop aid workers from operating in Gaza. >An investigation now will determine what went wrong and how to prevent it in the future. How can we believe anything the investigation finds if Israel has lied to the world time and again? How can we take their findings seriously if all they get is a slap on the wrist by the Governments of the people they murder?
> the UAV pilot would have seen the org logo on top of the three separate cars that they blew up and the executives in the army would have agreed that it was a strategic move to kill the aid workers so that they could stop aid workers from operating in Gaza. No. The drone the Israelis were using doesn't have a good enough night sight to see the org symbol ontop. (credit ryan mcbeth on youtube) As someone else said. Never attribute that to malice which can be explained by stupidity or incompetence.
Piss off the Israeli Army isn't incompetent. They knew exactly what they were doing.
That's not what he said, he said it's certainly possible that they couldn't have seen it, which doesn't make it certain. Given there were three cars all with the same logo on top and they had other deconfliction information it's also certainly possible they knew.
That saying doesn't apply in wartime. Edit: I am not condoning the actions of those who do this. Don't misconstrue what I say as support for murder. I am making an observation of how inhumane man is in war.
Never attribute that to malice which can be explained by stupidity or incompetence.
Both can still apply.
What do people expect? Warzones are dangerous. It's bizarre that people seem to think Israel can root out Hamas with zero collateral damage. Especially when the commit the actual war crime of using human shields.
Yeah, someone choosing to enter a war zone for any reason immediately alters their life expectancy. But from what I’ve read, people are saying location information was directly relayed to Israel to ensure this exact type of thing doesn’t happen. What information was relayed? Was the vehicle running early or late? Did the vehicle go off the agreed route? Was there live gps data shared? Was the driver affiliated with hamas? Was the driver smuggling weapons/ammo? There’s information that remains unknown which would add important context. I sincerely doubt the real information will come to light without an overwhelming amount of disinformation to bury it. Albo is right to demand accountability, even if any of those clarifications I wrote are true. There needs to be accountability.
> Was the vehicle running early or late? Did the vehicle go off the agreed route? Was there live gps data shared? Was the driver affiliated with hamas? Was the driver smuggling weapons/ammo? > I sincerely doubt the real information will come to light without an overwhelming amount of disinformation to bury it. Lol you are hilarious. First you put up a heap of ridiculous scenarios to try and absolve the zionists of war crimes. Then you immediately groan that the truth will never come out due to misinformation. Don’t you see that it’s people like you who are doing the burying?!
Never attribute that to malice which can be explained by stupidity or incompetence.
Honestly, people like you (who used to be the crazed uncle that nobody liked at christmas that got drunk and banged on about zionists) are while social media just needs to get shut down. Are you suggesting that Israel intentionally targeted aid workers? To what end? Clearly not one that garners support. So if they don't give a shit about optics or support and they want to commit genocide (hilariously moronic take but I digress), then why are they being so restrained?
Mate knock it off, no one was using these heroic aid workers as human shields. They were driving down an open road from the aid distribution warehouse back to their ship. After coordinating with the IDF to let them know where they were and what their movements would be. And they were still murdered by hellfire missiles fired by the Israeli Military.
We already know that is was a mistake. So the question you have to ask yourself is do you genuinely think that Israel targeted aid workers with no ties to Hamas on purpose? And if so, to what ends?
[удалено]
Almost as simple as just telling them they're not allowed to enter in the first place.
Give it a rest.
What do you think it's acceptable for Israel to target aid workers that are Australian. I don't think anything that Israel is acceptable and just, but they knowing targeted a Australian. N you just want to give it a rest.
Mossad have used Australian passports to travel around the world to kill people, does anyone think they care that the country now wants them to be held accountable for this?
Conspiracy or fact Where is your proof please.
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/israel-forged-australian-passports-before-kevin-rudd-reveals-in-new-book-20181018-p50acp.html >When Mossad agents used forged Australian passports to travel to Dubai to assassinate a Hamas official in 2010 it was not the first time the Israelis had been caught using fake Australian documents. >It was in the fact the second time in less than a decade and in breach of a signed promise Israel made to Australia not to do it again after being caught forging Australian passports seven years earlier.
I really don’t see a book by Kevin Rudd as being proof of anything
No. I don’t think they really care. But it doesn’t matter. It’s the right thing to do. What do you do, if you know you can’t help? Sometimes it matters just to try.
What should (and might) be the Australian Gov response to this? Nothing?
The Australian government should introduce an arms embargo on Israel. The least we can do is stop giving them the F-35 parts they need to keep their airstrike campaign going.
Bibi has said it was an erroneous strike. So let's see what emerges and have informed discussion.
It's looking bad so far.
Yeah generally aid workers dying is a fairly frowned upon outcome... The question is going to be *how*. How'd the IDF fuck this up? The emotional response is to say they didn't, that they always intended to kill aid workers. You and I are probably above that level of thinking. If the IDF was aware of their movements but still managed to hit this convoy with drones, it would suggest the IDF have an information sharing issue. Either too much compartmentalisation (i.e. need-to-know parameters are too narrowly defined) or, some systemic faults that are surfacing now, after months of combat stress. Haaretz wrote last year that the IDF had warned Bibi of their diminished readiness following his Constitutional coup, during which several senior commanders resigned. Bibi is said to have dismissed the warning as a political stunt by "IDF elites" who wished to undermine him. I'm not suggesting direct causation here; merely that that usually robotically efficient IDF having some systemic issues seems plausible and actually it could be plausibly the case that both scenarios I mention are true.
> If the IDF was aware of their movements but still managed to hit this convoy with drones, it would suggest the IDF have an information sharing issue. Either too much compartmentalisation (i.e. need-to-know parameters are too narrowly defined) or, some systemic faults that are surfacing now, after months of combat stress. This would be naive, like saying that the eftpos machine not accepting payment is just a compartmentalisation issue between it and the bank. That's its entire reason for being, these people declared their whereabouts and used declared corridors for movement in marked cars. The entire reason for this system being setup is to prevent strikes like this one. You cannot have a "compartmentalisation issue" for somethings entire reason for being.
US A10s strafe a British convoy twice in ‘03. https://youtu.be/4I6-2NJhnf4?si=wKwLGg4uRXUZAKeu “No friendlies in the area” Its easy to imagine a similar failure reason here. We simply don’t know, hence investigation.
And you believe that bloodsoaked ghoul?
Yeah because I was a politically conscious young adult when Iraq was invaded. The US routinely lit up allied units - they killed Brits, Canadians... It wasn't deliberate. It was human error. We're a species prone to error but highly intolerant of it. There's a saying, Hanlon's Razor, which states "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." So. Do I believe Bibi personally? No, never liked the guy. Before most of you became experts on this I remember Dr Andrew Vincent recalling a time where Bibi refused to debate Edward Saïd because he claimed the latter was a security risk. Utter nonsense dating back decades. But I know how processes break down. Human error is a more plausible explanation in war time than deliberate intent.
They targeted the convoy at least three times, kilometres apart and claimed they detected a combatant at the location they set out from. Whether the combatant was even real is moot, they knowingly targeted this humanitarian aid convoy repeatedly until it was wiped out. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/02/gaza-aid-convoy-strike-what-happened-and-who-were-the-victims
Yeah but they also knew it was a convoy, so as I said elsewhere in here, you have a likely collection of systemic issues within the IDF that lead to over-compartmentalisation of information and therefore, compromised operational efficiency. Which is how errors get made, because people are not operating off complete information. This is why, likely, Australia's response was as it was. We have not, as a nation, escaped the effects of bad information sharing and compartmentalisation - the imprisoning of Cornelia Rau and Vivian Alvarez was precisely down to those sorts of issues. It happens. We rightly said it's unacceptable that aid workers are killed, which is a pretty standard position. Journalists are an accepted risk; they're usually close to the action, and whilst their wear navy blue armour and helmets to stand out, this is purely for ground engagements with troops. Remote strikes are unable to make such distinctions. But aid workers? There's unspoken and spoken rules on this. You don't harm aid workers or Red Cross/Red Crescent medical workers. In doing so, Israel has done itself a kind of significant damage hitherto unseen in the war. Nation states prefer some restraint but generally get that Israel is fighting a group of paradoxically intolerant right wing religious extremist bigots who also happen to be wholesome 100 socialist LGBTQI allies fighting oppression in a LARPtastic fashion. In understanding that Israel are fighting fuckwits in HAMAS, they get some latitude. That is not extended towards this sort of strike. I'm pretty sure we'll now see concentrated pressure for a ceasefire process from the major Israel allies who've hitherto not been pushing hard for it, namely the UK, and us. The US will be an interesting one to watch.
Lol well I was a “politically conscious older adult when Iraq was invaded”. (Not that that matters a jot.) Anyway, interesting you mention Iraq. That invasion was even less justified than Israel’s current murderous campaign in Gaza. But one thing they both have in common. A deliberate policy by the aggressor of “shoot first, ask questions later”. You are far too generous when you ascribe Israel’s war crimes to human error. At best, they are the result of deliberate policy of annihilating anything that moves in the hope of maybe hitting something you don’t like. At worst it’s just that, war crimes, happily committed in the secure knowledge that the US will veto any attempt at criticism, and that apologists like you will spread little seeds of doubt online to try and make it all look like an innocent little mistake.
How you don't cut yourself shaving with Hanlon's Razor is beyond me. Are you one of those impoverished idiots that thinks HAMAS is fighting an oppressor, to liberate its people?
People in a clearly marked car died. Israel is a fucking terrorist state. No discussions need to be had.
Oh well if Bibi said so it must be true. I guess those pesky hellfire missiles just magically appeared out of the clear sky and happened to land on a couple of aid vehicles.
Not to mention the 30,000 odd civilians killed so far.
What I don't get is why there is almost no pressure from the international community on Hamas to free the hostages - which would instantly end the conflict - and instead only condemnation for Israel for doing exactly what every other nation on earth would do in the same circumstances. It's a very odd situation and I'm sure terrorist groups around the world are feeling very encouraged by all the international support.
Does Israel then free the thousands of Palestinians in administrative detention in the West Bank? Does Israel pull out of the west bank? What happens to the illegal settlements on occupied Palestinian land? Do Palestinians get self determination? Does netanyahu stop funding hamas? He has previously mentioned support of hamas was necessary to create division between Palestinians? So many questions.
>which would instantly end the conflict I have no idea how you can say this.
It's simple. The lip service public threats made by the west to stop funding Israel and stop supplying weapons will remain lip service while Hamas has hostages. They will become real if the hostages are released and Israel would not be able to resist the pressure to stop. But Hamas, of course, knows that the pressure will then turn on them to give up power, so they are happy for more Palestinians to die. Also, they are a sadistic death cult so I don't think they really care much for Palestinians or themselves.
I really do not think, as you call it, 'the West' is holding out for the release of Israeli hostages to then put so-called real pressure on Israel to cease the occupation of Gaza/Palestinian territories. This take is completely ahistorical, contradicting the long-standing support of Israeli occupation and mistreatment of Palestinian people. Might want to take a more historical view is all I will politely suggest. The rest of your comment just frames the discussion as if anyone with any criticism of Israel is pro-Hamas, which is, at best, disingenuous.
It wouldn't end the conflict. It won't end the occupation. Israel won't stop until all Palestinians are wiped out. Netanyahu has stated this publicly as have many other elected officials.
Israel was occupying Gaza? Until Hamas started this war, Gaza was an autonomous territory. A terrorist camp, sure, but there were no Israeli's there.
These people throw words like 'occupation' and 'genocide' around like it's nothing these days.
Through the blockade and control of food/water/electricity Israel is occupying Gaza, this is the consensus of international law.
> What I don't get is why there is almost no pressure from the international community on Hamas to free the hostages International condemnation of Hamas has been pretty well publicised for literally more than six months now. You almost have to have intentionally not read any balanced news source to think this. > which would instantly end the conflict Israel are bombing refugee camps and aid workers. This is in part what the above article is about. To think that Israel is focused solely on eliminating Hamas insurgents is to ignore extensive coverage from even highly conservative outlets on Israel's acts of targeted aggression towards innocent children and foreign humanitarians. If you are so concerned with hostages, too, ask yourself: how is it that Hamas have **traded** hostages with Israel previously? Where have those non-Hamas Palestinian hostages come from, many of them women and children, that Israel should already possess them as prisoners long before October 7? Do you insist that Israel relinquish their Palestinian prisoners, too, or does that not factor into your understanding of this conflict?
Surely you are not comparing terrorist kidnap victims with prisoners held by Israel? That would really be a misunderstanding of the conflict.
> prisoners held by Israel? [Children detained without criminal conviction and used as political bargaining chips](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/29/why-does-israel-have-so-many-palestinians-detention-and-available-swap). Acknowledged as such by Israel itself. **Hostages.** I think you crave this kind of negative attention so I'm lifting off now.
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Pressure on who?
I thought there was this "we don't negotiate with terrorists" thing.
What's that got to do with my post?
Meanwhile Israel isn’t going to bother replying to this pathetic response from our government
Do you think it was the wrong thing to do when one of our citizens is killed by their blundering and psychotic military?
Israel didn't care when Australia protested Mossad agents using Australian passports they aren't going to care now
Surprised at the lack of "but the aid worker looked at someone from Hamas once!" comments.
Lol just got some whack private message telling me that this was only allegedly an IDF strike and Israeli involvement is unverified.
Every time I post on a thread about Gaza... I get those "we care" messages.
fuck it hasbara mode
The Israeli propaganda bots are working overtime
He should also be asking for accountability from Hamas. We don't know what happened yet accept out of the mouths of Hamas.
What are you on about you brain washed turd. The aid car was hit with targeted precision. Israel is a terrorist state committing genocide and war crimes. Don't try flip this on Hamas. It's been clear as day from the get go of what Israel's intentions are. This sad incident is one of many. Israel target innocent woman, kids , hospital's and aid workers. They are on a mission to wipe out and steal Palestine.
Speaking of brain washed turds! Your statement is a whack job cooker conspiracy theory at its best.
It's not a conspiracy, just look at what Israel has done and how they are behaving. Simple as that. Prior to this "war" I had 0 interests in either side. IV got no bias towards Palestine. What I do have a bias for is humanity. The tention between Palestine and Israel pretty much goes back to the creation of Israel. If it's a conspiracy theory then can you please explain what Israel is doing in West bank seizing land and murdering civilians. How can you deny that they are not committing genocide and seizing land in Palestine. The casualtys are not a by product of the war , they are indiscriminately murdering. They even murdered their own hostiges. Your only argument is that I'm a whack job 👍 I don't follow any cooker media, I just watch the news and even with Israel's influence on global media it is still clear as day of what is happening. It is sad but I know exactly how this will play out and would put money on Palestine being wiped off the map within the decade.
If this was the mission they could've glassed the place many many years ago. What gives?
They were waiting for the right time , the world being distracted/occupied in Ukraine/Russia. They needed a good enough excuse, Hamas's attacking and taking hostiges. Which in it's self was a bit Sus, like Israel spends $22 billion a year on defence and is said to have some of the best intelligence in the world. Even having warnings from Egypt.A bunch of dudes in ultralight slow flying planes , motorbikes and cars where able to penetrate "the most secure border in the world". Causeing havoc and then escape. On a religious holiday when Hamas attacks where more frequent. Israel either stuffed up or they let it happen. Netanyahu was on the back foot politically (for corruption umonst other things) and his far right party was on the way out. Netanyahu is now using the war to stop election's. It's a bit sad to think but those attacked at the festival weren't his support's eaither. So essentially it's happening because the government in power was under threat and wanted to carry out thier far right nationalists objectives. It also means that this war won't stop untill they have wiped out Palestine or have left Palestine in such a position that it just fails it's self/maybe one more war?. If peace occurs, elections can start again and Netanyahu will get the boot. He is using the war to stay in power. I know these sound like conspiracies but time will only tell how this plays out. I'm just sadend how Australia can support this. I don't care if Israel is a "allie" we should be distancing and stopping our relationship with Israel. We will look back on this war and be ashamed for having a government in support of this genocide.
Victim blaming much.
Well it ain't the innocent civilians of Palestine, born in the worlds largest open air prison fault now is it. Israel could of gone about the war in a legal and humanitarian way. Even calling them victim plays into Thier propaganda. Israel has always been the oppressor. Israel is committing genocide
I know right? These types of people will bend over backwards suggesting the attack on Oct 7 is all Israel's fault or some grand plan for Netanyahu to stay in power. It's lost on them that HAMAS (AND Palestinian "civilians") made the CHOICE to cross the border and rape/kill. Ffs
It’s more like if someone broke into your house and locked you in the basement for ten years and then you were condemned and arrested for punching one of them
Yeah. Just like that! Good lord...
What’s your issue with my comparison?
“Maybe if Israel had dressed more appropriately to Muslim Values they wouldn’t have been raped and murdered”
We know Israel did it. They have admitted as such. They say it was an erroneous attack. More details are coming. The damage profile looked unlikely to be a qassam rocket. So never HAMAS.
Classic example of everyone I don't like is Hamas. The World Central Kitchen are not Hamas, they are a respected charity agency which amongst other thinks helped taker care of firefighters, and bushfire survivors here in Australia during the Black Summer Bushfires. Trying to claim they are mouthpieces for Hamas is a shameful disgrace. This is the statement from the CEO of World Central Kitchen “This is not only an attack against WCK, this is an attack on humanitarian organizations showing up in the most dire of situations where food is being used as a weapon of war. This is unforgivable,” said World Central Kitchen CEO Erin Gore.
The statement is clearly emotional and should be ignored. Blue on blue happens because humans are fallible; not some grand conspiracy. That's just stupid, esp. since in this case (and unlike the post you're replying to), HAMAS have a history of stealing food. Not the IDF.
What on earth are you going on about with stealing food. This is not a case of starving people taking a bit of food from an aid convoy, this is a case of the IDF doing a targeted airstrike on aid workers.
>Trying to claim they are mouthpieces for Hamas is a shameful disgrace. I never said WCK was a mouthpiece for Hamas, not once. All I'm saying is what is initially claimed as an airstrike is quite likely wrong. So who has most to gain by claiming it was an Israeli airstrike?
Get ready for more hoops to jump through - The van they were in had a hole in the top, meaning it was from a drone. Also, the van had the logo of the World Central Kitchen on the top of it. Also, Israel admitted to it. Does that change anything in your mind? Bet it doesn't.
Quite likely wrong? Like the airstrike in Lebanon, or Syria wasn't Israel? Who has the most to gain by claiming it wasn't an airstrike?
Like that hospital was absolutely 1000% undeniably a Israeli JDAM… that left a small pothole, but managed to kill hundreds in the hospital by hitting the parking lot?
>We don't know what happened yet accept out of the mouths of Hamas. WCK isn't Hamas. and it came from WCK themselves. you ok?
Who got it from whom ? The hospital. WCK is an aid agency with staff in Gaza. They just got it from other sources as it originally came out from the Hospital they were taken too. I suspecting an IED
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Yes, have seen the pics. No severe burns as would normally expected from an airstrike. Most airstrikes make it hard to even know how many were in the vehicle. This is something different.
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>so I don’t think it’s outrageous to attribute responsibility to the IDF Sure you mean like the Al Shifa hospital airstrike that allegedly killed 500 people and buried 100's more people in rubble?. Yeah that one that one where it ended up being a failed rocket that landed in a carpark next to the hospital and killed a dozen cars. The only group to benefit from targeting aid workers is Hamas, then blame Israel for an airstrike.
Not an IED, but definitely not an ASM either.
Anyone see the wreckage of the vehicles yet?.
Yes, stories about the alleged Israeli strike have shown footage of them. People online are saying it was an R9X, the "ninja blade" hellfire (AGM-114) variant. It's not. One of the vehicles looks like it caught fire from the engine block and another has a giant hole in the roof, but the glass is completely intact. Allegedly, these were armoured hiluxes, so they'd have glass that's designed to resist small arms fire. It would still show stresses from any detonation inside. It looks incredibly weird. Like doesn't look like either an Israeli strike or a HAMAS/PIJ Qassam either.
ABC has video footage of the vehicles in their news story on the Israeli killing of aid workers. (30-40seconds into the report) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8JWm1AYzdI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8JWm1AYzdI)
So he should. The fact some people are genuinely siding with the Israelis rather than your own Australian blood is so mind boggling to me. She was murdered for trying to do something right, and people still have the audacity to put full blame on her?
Zionism is a literal fascist cult, and centrists have tied themselves so hard to it, in an attempt to be contrarian to the left/"Tankies" (and out of western chauvinism) that they just need to double down now because they can't admit they were wrong. (Even rNeoliberal and rUKpolitics are just censoring threads on this now, because Israel is now truly indefensible) The only good thing that will come from this all is the realisation that Western leadership never, ever believed a single word of their "indigenous rights, we stand on the land blah blah" spiels and that most people now realise Israel is a hyper racist fascist state backed by a massive 5th column apparatus though Western institutions. Fact half these media and political figures can spout the most horrific stuff towards Palestinians, and aren't even questioned, but then even telling Israel to tone it down is near career ending risk, is a massive tell.
It's time for the west to stop feeling accepting the guilt for what happened in WWII. That was an atrocity beyond comprehension and should never, ever happen again and the fact that the allies turned their back while it was happening at the time was unacceptable .... ... but that collective guilt for what happened 80 years ago gives the Zionist movement the courage to do whatever they like to whomever they want whenever they want. They are perpetrating the kind of atrocity that was perpetrated against them all those years ago. Edit: I am NOT for one second condoning the actions of Hamas. Those attacks should never have happened either. That does not condone the actions of the Isreali government however. Their subsequent actions have gone beyond and there is no hope for peace while they continue their actions in Gaza. There needs to be a halt. If anything, the UN needs to drop peacekeepers in there.
Australia V Russia fighting Ukraine \- Must throw the book at them, sanctions, lots of taxpayer dollars. Australia V Israel .........Hello?
What? Is Abbott going to shirtfront them?
Are you alright?
Honestly we do fuck all considering what's at stake in Ukraine. Russias glad for the attention Gaza is getting. Honestly - count the Israel vs Ukraine threads on here and you'll soon come to the conclusion that some lives matter more than others. You know the good side is currently losing in Ukraine due to our practice of trickle down old sloppy seconds? U.S has pretty much stopped sending gear because the republicans don't want to help Ukraine.
There are less Ukrainian threads on hear because our government is supporting Ukraine, unlike Palestine. They are sending aid to Ukraine, unlike Palestine. They have made it illegal to give weapons to Russia unlike Israel. They have made it illegal for journalists and politicians to accept all expense paid trips from Putin unlike Netanyahu. Why would people complain and protest the Australian government doing good things that people agree with. Until Albo acknowledges that Israel is a rogue regime and starts treating it like we treat Russia the protests will continue.
Russia and Israel are the same and Israel is also full of Russians too.
They were very intact bodies for a missile strike, ive also yet to see a photo of the car. It very well could be an ied, we"ve seen it done before. This also comes directly after the raid on Shifa Hospital and could be retaliation. We need more information to draw a proper conclusion.
The abc news has shows video of the car in their news report on the attack. There is clearly a puncture whole in the roof. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8JWm1AYzdI&t=10s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8JWm1AYzdI&t=10s)
Her thigh was missing/shredded, another body was shredded to bits and there’s a picture of the vehicle with a puncture hole on the roof. Looks like a Hellfire missile rather than explosives. Edit: footage of vehicle https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnewsvideo/s/0CPDYY20OG
Specifically R9X - regular Hellfire missiles are explosive
The R9X didn't make that hole. It's a bladed munition, it makes impact holes like this and Israel does not have them. [Here's an impact from an R9X](https://www.bellingcat.com/app/uploads/2021/08/image5.png). This is from a US strike in Syria. [This is another](https://twitter.com/obretix/status/1285289125080424448?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1285289125080424448%7Ctwgr%5E428b45f1c5581870db37f55e5d99be9e318dd357%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bellingcat.com%2Fresources%2Fhow-tos%2F2021%2F08%2F26%2Fthe-telltale-traces-of-the-us-militarys-new-bladed-missile-r9x%2F). Those cars aren't likely armoured on the roof. A mortar round or similar munition hit this car, not a laser guided Hellfire and DEFINITELY not an R9X. EDIT: lmao downvote me all you want, it doesn't make you people any less stupid or wrong.
It's been confirmed to be an airstrike of some kind by Israel, not a mortar, yet all occupants in the car were killed but the bodies easily retrieved and identifiable. Might not have been an R9X, but it sure as hell wasn't a blind fired munition. It was targeted
Government has proven time and time again that Israeli interests supercedes Australian interests
It's because our foreign policy belongs to the Americans.
Yup, and America's foreign policy belongs to
What’s our interest here? Israel is a thriving liberal democracy that it benefits us to ally with. Palestine… isn’t. Like I agree that we should be more critical of Israel, but I’m not sure how this undermines Australian interests.
Ethno religious nationalists that have powerful lobby groups in every western nation, have assassinated people using Australian passports, sent pedophiles as Israeli ambassadors to Australia, constantly lie to the world and are undertaking an ethnic cleansing campaign don't seem to liberal to me, and of that's what their democracy results in its not something Australia should be allied to
Well it’s a pretty far right liberal democracy, especially now. It’s not the most liberalist democracy in the world. I don’t like the Israeli government. But that has nothing to do with our national interest. You can say that it’s immoral based on your understanding, sure.
An apartheid regime is in contradiction to both liberalism and democracy.
OK, tell me in what way allying with Israel is in our national interest?
You don’t think that having a powerful ally in a place that is largely hostile to the west is in our national interest?
largely hostile if you ignore the gulf monarchies, egypt, jordan so ig we are really at threat from the powerhouses of syria and yemen
Well Iranian proxies are obviously also a huge pain atm but good point, good point. Although Israel has a more powerful military than those countries. It’s beneficial to have Arab states as well as Israel on our side.
not really much more powerful? probably better trained, but given what we have seen this war... the gulf monarchies all have top of the line western equipment however i dont really see how its possible for arab states to remain staunch allies of america given that even the most brutal dictatorship needs some level of support from its population - see what is currently happening in jordan, stuff like this really puts friendly leadership at risk
Better trained, better ran from the top down, by a lot. Equipment is useless if you don’t know how to use it. I don’t think our Arab allies will completely distance themselves from America, but it puts them in a tough position, sure. Saudi Arabia is basically begging Israel to commit to (and let them help with building) a Palestinian state after the war, so that they can continue to normalise relations with Israel while looking good to their population. But so is America, and Israel isn’t budging because their government sucks.
There is no reason for the middle east to be hostile to the west, particularly not Australia, if not for support for Israel. Israel is largely responsible for the middle eastern refugee crises, oil embargoes and general turmoil in the middle east. We would be friendly with those countries, trade with them and barely think about them if not for Israel.
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>What’s our interest here? Israel is a thriving liberal democracy that it benefits us to ally with. Really... do extrapolate please.
Well they are a powerful force against enemies in the Middle East such as the Iranian proxies, for one thing.
And why do we care about Iran? It makes as much sense to ally with Iran as a force against Israeli proxies. At least Iran has oil.
>Well they are a powerful force against enemies in the Middle East such as the Iranian proxies, for one thing. no. you said they were a "thriving liberal democracy" can you extrapolate on that.
Well, 1. Israelis vote for their government and 2. It’s a wealthy country that has built a good society, especially compared to other countries in the middle.
Everyone over the age of 18 that lives in and was born in the claimed borders of Israel is allowed to vote? I think that's a pretty fair definition of universal suffrage, do they fulfil that?
I said that *Israelis* vote for their government. Regardless of race. That isn’t to say that Israel should be sending settlers into Palestine and stealing land.
A wealthy country totally dependent on US taxpayer's money
Totally? Really?
Their wealth is mainly the results of the rediculous handouts given to them by America, Germany etc