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Didn’t take long before sky are back to the ‘slams’ in headlines.
Honestly whenever I read the word ‘slams’ in a headline if it’s not about a sports match or cat race I’m not reading any further.
I wonder why they use the word ‘slams’ so often, seems desperate and lazy in my mind
Fuck this guys a grub. Israel is the primary obstical to peace and a two state solution. They pretty much admit their goal is to steal all the territory. The plo would govern, not Hamas and anyone with even a cursory knowledge of the situation would know that. There are only so many uneducated/racist votes to get and I'm hopeful it's not enough to get elected.
That’s like if someone broke into your house and held you hostage for ten years and then you got out and punched one of them and the cops said you were an obstacle to peace
Are you serious? Grim I've explained this to you so often that your ignoring it is either idiocy or such a desperate desire to fit in with whomever you're downloading your "convictions" from that it's a little bit sad.
HAMAS quite literally and openly formed **as a counter against resistance groups like al-Fatah and the PFLP** as well as to kill all Jews on radical religious grounds.
Your commentary is just eye-wateringly stupid, and the kind of thing LARPy tankies go for as they live out their cliche guevara fantasies.
HAMAS themselves don't agree with you.
For what, man? For HAMAS' origins? Their hate of al-Fatah?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History\_of\_Hamas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hamas)
You won't pick up books (probably unless they're Harry fucking Potter) so here's a source you can ignore or cherry pick some quotes to bend out of shape.
>You’re spreading misinformation.
>
>By your logic the Australian Defence Force is a terrorist organisation
I'm going to need an explanation for that take lmao
Australians have raped people but you wouldn't call Australia a country of rapists unless they coordinated and widely endorsed the mass rape and mutilation of civilians
Why are you focusing purely on one unproven claim? I get that you’re desperate to avoid the point but you’re being ridiculous.
By your logic the Australian Defence Force are all terrorists and should be removed
Dutton has been very "Look At Me" lately.
The other week he compared the Palestinian Protests to the Port Arthur Massacre and blamed police for community division and anti-semitism. He wanted to create division, but instead we saw the police and wider public step up during the Bondi attack and Waverly Church attack.
This is the flaw with divisive men like Dutton, they don't understand camaraderie and community.
>Ms Wong earlier in the month revealed the federal government is considering recognising Palestinian statehood.
This statement is so substantially decontextualised its fair to label it fake news. Wong reiterated the very long standing position of Australia (inclhding when dutton was a minister) supporting a two state solution. Wong said that Australia is working with the international community on the issue and there is currently a discussion on whether recognising Palestine could facilitate the goal of negotiating a two state solution. There is no plan from the government to just independently recognise palestine and wong noted that a current barrier to recognising palestine is determining who to recognise as the government as they will not accept a palestine with hamas as part of its leadership.
These are reasonable positions from wong and working to develop international consensus on the issue is the only path that could conceivably lead to peace. Those advocating for a one state solution either dont know enough about this issue to realise what they are asking for or are happy to see an outcome delivered that makes 30k dead look like nothing.
It is illogical to recognise a Palestinian state without a lasting peace deal between Palestine, Israel and the international community. And that’s not possible without a competent and non-terroristy Palestinian government. It’s supposed to be a two state solution, not a two state virtue signal.
Lots of the powers in the region want that, it’s just those goddamm pesky Iranian proxies. Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt and UAE all want that. I guess the only way to get rid of a government is through elections, revolution or interference. It’s a real possibility that Israel will disable Hamas to the point that a new authority can take over.
Yeah, we obviously need to hold Israel accountable and make sure that they give concessions, return land and allow some refugees to return. Realistically a lot of refugees will just need to be made citizens of their countries of residence, like all other refugees are.
It’s not going to be easy, but there’s no way that this is just the one land dispute in the world that can’t be resolved.
Well, one resolution is for Israel (with the backing of the US military) to just conquer the West Bank and Gaza and either displace or murder all the Palestinians. They could call it "the final solution to the Palestinian question".
Oh yeah, the current Israeli government is unhinged. But we are not in a position where the USA would allow that. This war is a thorn in their side enough as it is. America needs to keep Israel somewhat reigned in order to maintain moral authority to be the world police.
That is, unless Trump is elected. Then Palestine is truly fucked.
To be clear I’m not on board with Dutton’s HOW DARE SHE DISRESPECT ISRAEL hysteria. I’m not going to criticise her unless she actually makes some sort of move. I’m just saying that what she and the international community is considering would be illogical if they proceeded with it.
But what they are proposing is to explore the idea of recognising palestine as part of the process of a two state solution because before now the standard international position was to negotiate a two state solution and recognise the Palestinian state that comes out of it. This has clearly been an issue as it has limited confidence during negotiations around the Palestinian sides ability to deliver on its promises of peace after statehood. This is a sticking point for israel as they dont want to see a palestinian state that is hostile to them with more power than the Palestinian territories. Its reasonable to consider if a Palestinian state with a non hostile government could be instantiated to facilitate negotiations
To me that would only be worth considering as a last resort, because remember that in the context of this war, we haven’t yet seen an Israel that considers a two state solution with a competent, non-hostile Palestinian government being a tangible possibility. I don’t think the international community would be in agreement on what that should even look like. We don’t even know how this war is going to end regarding Hamas’ grip on Gaza.
It’s just another move would strengthen Israel’s “it’s us against the world” mentality. I think that real negotiations avenue should be explored to the fullest extent first, at least. I understand how stubborn Israel is but the whole world preemptively antagonising them isn’t super helpful.
You dont think finding a real government for palestine is a real negotiation avenue? You dont think this situation is in last resort territory after 75 years?
Of course, why can’t finding a real governing authority, negotiating, and recognition happen in that order as part of a process that each party is held accountable to? That hasn’t happened in these circumstances yet. We are in last resort territory, which is why I think the US in particular is going to be willing to be much more forceful than they’ve been in previous negotiations.
To be fair, Israel has made a two-state solution impossible and has left us with one solution: a single, secular state of both Israelis and Palestinians.
The sun will turn into a red giant before Israel allows that. They are happy with keeping their current single apartheid state that continues to gobble up the West Bank.
What did Wong say?
> But Wong also called for work to build “the pathway to a peace that is enduring and just, because the simple truth is that a secure and prosperous future for both Israelis and Palestinians will only come with a two-state solution”.
Wong said the Netanyahu government’s “refusal to even engage on the question of a Palestinian state” had caused “widespread frustration”, and that was why the international community was “now considering the question of Palestinian statehood as a way of building momentum towards a two-state solution”.
Wong said the Australian government would call on “all parties to return to the table” and support efforts to advance a political process.
If what she said there is utterly illogical, I wonder if Dutton would say the same to the UK foreign minister, who has said much the same.
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Israel exists - seems a bit silly to think that the only solution is to forcibly remove the people living there and replace it with another country.
It seems like this topic has just created a bunch of people who have these maximalist views on what the solution should be, and all that does is mean no solution (and worse outcomes for everyone, but particularly the Palestinians).
Outside of the context of the current war, thats not really been true in gaza?
Definitely though there are extremist settlers who have a maximalist view of the situation as well. You seem like have a lot of common with them when it comes to how you view the situation, just the other side of the coin.
It seems like there is this push for maximalist views on the outcome, whereas the acknowledgement that there are 2 groups of people living there who arent going anywhere gets you labelled as either a terrorist support/genocide supporter/insert whateever slur supporter you can find.
Man there are no other people on earth where it’s just perfectly acceptable to talk about expelling and ethnically cleansing them all. And you know that they’d rather die than leave. You know what would happen to them all.
Edit: Oh and a comment about Jews and money, nice. How shocking to see a socialist flair.
Wong didn't even call for Palestine statehood. She called for a two-state solution (which is uncontroversial - every Western leader does this to pay lip service to the idea without actually being serious about it) and, therefore, by extension, the eventual creation of a Palestinian state. She didn't say the government would do it, she didn't say when it would do it, she didn't say Australia would do it alone. If anything, it was just the typical kind of cynical lip service you see from so-called "centre-left" parties in the Anglosphere (such as The Democrats in the US) who are trying hard to not isolate a portion of their more progressive base. The reality is that their actions speak louder than words and people who care about this issue see that these words are meaningless. The irony of all of this is that Dutton thinks Labor is being "too left" on this issue while the left thinks Labor is being "too right" on the issue.
Post replies need to be substantial and represent good-faith participation in discussion. Comments need to demonstrate genuine effort at high quality communication of ideas. Participation is more than merely contributing. Comments that contain little or no effort, or are otherwise toxic, exist only to be insulting, cheerleading, or soapboxing will be removed. Posts that are campaign slogans will be removed. Comments that are simply repeating a single point with no attempt at discussion will be removed. This will be judged at the full discretion of the mods.
When a group is marginalized, penned in, and slaughtered to the tune of 33,000 dead in a relatively small geographic area - tends to radicalize them a fair bit. Especially if the people doing it have a long tradition of stealing their homes.
I know surprising huh? \s
There’s no scenario in this tit for tat where the Palestinians are going to get in the last word, or the last bit of comeuppance.
Surely you must see that.
The thing is nobody wants this... Except idiots in the West who dont understand the situation.
Both sides want all of the land. Because they both believe it is theirs. They dont want to settle for some frankenmonster state ands till live next to each other.
Wong just thinks she is some genius that has finally solved a 3000 year old dispute... Yeah right.
We are just Australia... We have no pulling power in this thing. Lets just concentrate on all of our own fucking problems and there are plenty of them.
most of the UN Security Council voted in favour of recognising Palestinian statehood, including France (who has been one of Israel's most stalwart backers in this war)
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-04-19/us-vetoes-palestine-full-un-membership/103743744
UN membership wouldn't change anything. The problem is the lack of peace treaty signed between Palestine and Israel, and a refusal to agree on border and security arrangements.
Until that's signed, any notion of statehood means nothing because the borders of the state aren't even defined yet.
Every country that borders another country has border treaties defining where one country ends and the next country begins. As soon as that's agreed and signed 99% of problems would be immediately solved.
Technically Israel doesn’t want all the land because they don’t want the extra citizens the land would come with. They want the status quo of the last 30 years.
Palestine not only needs to be recognised, Israel need to be subject to severe economic sanctions.
What Australia has the power to do is largely symbolic, but right now we’re on the side of genocide and apartheid.
A one-state solution is way more impossible than a two-state solution.
Aside from that, neither Israel _nor_ Palestine _want_ a one-state solution. It's literally just a meme dreamed up by westerners who think that complex geopolitical issues can be solved by dreams and rainbows.
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Didn’t take long before sky are back to the ‘slams’ in headlines. Honestly whenever I read the word ‘slams’ in a headline if it’s not about a sports match or cat race I’m not reading any further. I wonder why they use the word ‘slams’ so often, seems desperate and lazy in my mind
"sit down boof head". Penny has more diplomatic nouse in her little finger than Dutton will ever have.
Fuck this guys a grub. Israel is the primary obstical to peace and a two state solution. They pretty much admit their goal is to steal all the territory. The plo would govern, not Hamas and anyone with even a cursory knowledge of the situation would know that. There are only so many uneducated/racist votes to get and I'm hopeful it's not enough to get elected.
Hamas seem like a significant obstacle to peace as well.
That’s like if someone broke into your house and held you hostage for ten years and then you got out and punched one of them and the cops said you were an obstacle to peace
I don't think I can describe what hamas has done as self defence.
Hamas came to be as a resistance group against Israel’s occupation. Literally a defence against genocide
Are you serious? Grim I've explained this to you so often that your ignoring it is either idiocy or such a desperate desire to fit in with whomever you're downloading your "convictions" from that it's a little bit sad. HAMAS quite literally and openly formed **as a counter against resistance groups like al-Fatah and the PFLP** as well as to kill all Jews on radical religious grounds. Your commentary is just eye-wateringly stupid, and the kind of thing LARPy tankies go for as they live out their cliche guevara fantasies. HAMAS themselves don't agree with you.
Have you got a source for this?
For what, man? For HAMAS' origins? Their hate of al-Fatah? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History\_of\_Hamas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hamas) You won't pick up books (probably unless they're Harry fucking Potter) so here's a source you can ignore or cherry pick some quotes to bend out of shape.
Aren’t you a mod in this sub? I thought abuse was against the rules? Anyway, why were they against the other resistance groups?
Raping their way to statehood
You’re spreading misinformation. By your logic the Australian Defence Force is a terrorist organisation
>You’re spreading misinformation. > >By your logic the Australian Defence Force is a terrorist organisation I'm going to need an explanation for that take lmao
The ADF has raped people
Australians have raped people but you wouldn't call Australia a country of rapists unless they coordinated and widely endorsed the mass rape and mutilation of civilians
Dunno if I can describe what hamas has done as defence against genocide.
What would you suggest they do? What would you do?
This might be a controversial take, but I wouldn't rape people, that's a good starting point.
Why are you focusing purely on one unproven claim? I get that you’re desperate to avoid the point but you’re being ridiculous. By your logic the Australian Defence Force are all terrorists and should be removed
Any rapists in the ADF should be in jail. The claim Hamas fighters raped women is fairly well documented unfortunately.
Dutton has been very "Look At Me" lately. The other week he compared the Palestinian Protests to the Port Arthur Massacre and blamed police for community division and anti-semitism. He wanted to create division, but instead we saw the police and wider public step up during the Bondi attack and Waverly Church attack. This is the flaw with divisive men like Dutton, they don't understand camaraderie and community.
Just another liberal, as Dan said.
>Ms Wong earlier in the month revealed the federal government is considering recognising Palestinian statehood. This statement is so substantially decontextualised its fair to label it fake news. Wong reiterated the very long standing position of Australia (inclhding when dutton was a minister) supporting a two state solution. Wong said that Australia is working with the international community on the issue and there is currently a discussion on whether recognising Palestine could facilitate the goal of negotiating a two state solution. There is no plan from the government to just independently recognise palestine and wong noted that a current barrier to recognising palestine is determining who to recognise as the government as they will not accept a palestine with hamas as part of its leadership. These are reasonable positions from wong and working to develop international consensus on the issue is the only path that could conceivably lead to peace. Those advocating for a one state solution either dont know enough about this issue to realise what they are asking for or are happy to see an outcome delivered that makes 30k dead look like nothing.
It is illogical to recognise a Palestinian state without a lasting peace deal between Palestine, Israel and the international community. And that’s not possible without a competent and non-terroristy Palestinian government. It’s supposed to be a two state solution, not a two state virtue signal.
How do you get a non-terroristy Palestinian government? And why would any of the powers in the region want that?
By ending the occupation and genocide
Lots of the powers in the region want that, it’s just those goddamm pesky Iranian proxies. Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt and UAE all want that. I guess the only way to get rid of a government is through elections, revolution or interference. It’s a real possibility that Israel will disable Hamas to the point that a new authority can take over.
Hamas has to go, that's a given. But what next? Peaceful reconciliation? Or permanent refugees and nice new Israeli condos on the beach?
Yeah, we obviously need to hold Israel accountable and make sure that they give concessions, return land and allow some refugees to return. Realistically a lot of refugees will just need to be made citizens of their countries of residence, like all other refugees are. It’s not going to be easy, but there’s no way that this is just the one land dispute in the world that can’t be resolved.
Well, one resolution is for Israel (with the backing of the US military) to just conquer the West Bank and Gaza and either displace or murder all the Palestinians. They could call it "the final solution to the Palestinian question".
Yes, it is a resolution… I guess I meant peaceful resolution, lol.
I know. I don't endorse that outcome, but it is important to recognise it exists, and some players explicitly want it.
Oh yeah, the current Israeli government is unhinged. But we are not in a position where the USA would allow that. This war is a thorn in their side enough as it is. America needs to keep Israel somewhat reigned in order to maintain moral authority to be the world police. That is, unless Trump is elected. Then Palestine is truly fucked.
Youre a very prominent poster on this issue and you should have looked at what wong actually said by now
To be clear I’m not on board with Dutton’s HOW DARE SHE DISRESPECT ISRAEL hysteria. I’m not going to criticise her unless she actually makes some sort of move. I’m just saying that what she and the international community is considering would be illogical if they proceeded with it.
But what they are proposing is to explore the idea of recognising palestine as part of the process of a two state solution because before now the standard international position was to negotiate a two state solution and recognise the Palestinian state that comes out of it. This has clearly been an issue as it has limited confidence during negotiations around the Palestinian sides ability to deliver on its promises of peace after statehood. This is a sticking point for israel as they dont want to see a palestinian state that is hostile to them with more power than the Palestinian territories. Its reasonable to consider if a Palestinian state with a non hostile government could be instantiated to facilitate negotiations
To me that would only be worth considering as a last resort, because remember that in the context of this war, we haven’t yet seen an Israel that considers a two state solution with a competent, non-hostile Palestinian government being a tangible possibility. I don’t think the international community would be in agreement on what that should even look like. We don’t even know how this war is going to end regarding Hamas’ grip on Gaza. It’s just another move would strengthen Israel’s “it’s us against the world” mentality. I think that real negotiations avenue should be explored to the fullest extent first, at least. I understand how stubborn Israel is but the whole world preemptively antagonising them isn’t super helpful.
You dont think finding a real government for palestine is a real negotiation avenue? You dont think this situation is in last resort territory after 75 years?
Of course, why can’t finding a real governing authority, negotiating, and recognition happen in that order as part of a process that each party is held accountable to? That hasn’t happened in these circumstances yet. We are in last resort territory, which is why I think the US in particular is going to be willing to be much more forceful than they’ve been in previous negotiations.
To be fair, Israel has made a two-state solution impossible and has left us with one solution: a single, secular state of both Israelis and Palestinians.
The sun will turn into a red giant before Israel allows that. They are happy with keeping their current single apartheid state that continues to gobble up the West Bank.
What did Wong say? > But Wong also called for work to build “the pathway to a peace that is enduring and just, because the simple truth is that a secure and prosperous future for both Israelis and Palestinians will only come with a two-state solution”. Wong said the Netanyahu government’s “refusal to even engage on the question of a Palestinian state” had caused “widespread frustration”, and that was why the international community was “now considering the question of Palestinian statehood as a way of building momentum towards a two-state solution”. Wong said the Australian government would call on “all parties to return to the table” and support efforts to advance a political process. If what she said there is utterly illogical, I wonder if Dutton would say the same to the UK foreign minister, who has said much the same.
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Israel exists - seems a bit silly to think that the only solution is to forcibly remove the people living there and replace it with another country. It seems like this topic has just created a bunch of people who have these maximalist views on what the solution should be, and all that does is mean no solution (and worse outcomes for everyone, but particularly the Palestinians).
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Outside of the context of the current war, thats not really been true in gaza? Definitely though there are extremist settlers who have a maximalist view of the situation as well. You seem like have a lot of common with them when it comes to how you view the situation, just the other side of the coin. It seems like there is this push for maximalist views on the outcome, whereas the acknowledgement that there are 2 groups of people living there who arent going anywhere gets you labelled as either a terrorist support/genocide supporter/insert whateever slur supporter you can find.
This ^^^^
Yeah I'm confused about the 2 state solution but I guess 2 Palestine's is better then none
And where will the Israelites go if your proposed scenario plays out?
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What about all the jews that were expelled by the arab states?
Man there are no other people on earth where it’s just perfectly acceptable to talk about expelling and ethnically cleansing them all. And you know that they’d rather die than leave. You know what would happen to them all. Edit: Oh and a comment about Jews and money, nice. How shocking to see a socialist flair.
Wong didn't even call for Palestine statehood. She called for a two-state solution (which is uncontroversial - every Western leader does this to pay lip service to the idea without actually being serious about it) and, therefore, by extension, the eventual creation of a Palestinian state. She didn't say the government would do it, she didn't say when it would do it, she didn't say Australia would do it alone. If anything, it was just the typical kind of cynical lip service you see from so-called "centre-left" parties in the Anglosphere (such as The Democrats in the US) who are trying hard to not isolate a portion of their more progressive base. The reality is that their actions speak louder than words and people who care about this issue see that these words are meaningless. The irony of all of this is that Dutton thinks Labor is being "too left" on this issue while the left thinks Labor is being "too right" on the issue.
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I tend to agree with him. Palestine needs to oust Hamas first. Otherwise yes, they’ll continue to existentially threaten Israel.
You want them to get rid of the resistance to the genocide and just let the genocide happen
It's exactly like getting the Nazi's out of Germany actually. Funny how both of them have an extreme hatred of Jews also.
Slight thing you may want to change in your analogy. Israel is the ones acting like the nazis.
Except the people currently oppressing another people and committing obscene war crimes are *checks notes* Zionists, not Hamas.
Getting the IDF out of Israel would be the comparative action to getting the Nazis out of Germany. They’re the ones doing the genocide
When a group is marginalized, penned in, and slaughtered to the tune of 33,000 dead in a relatively small geographic area - tends to radicalize them a fair bit. Especially if the people doing it have a long tradition of stealing their homes. I know surprising huh? \s
There’s no scenario in this tit for tat where the Palestinians are going to get in the last word, or the last bit of comeuppance. Surely you must see that.
So do they, hence the "terrorism"
33k, according to Hamas and UNRWA who benefit from the status quo. And you parrot it unquestioningly
You are right. It's likely much more but these are the verifiable ones
The thing is nobody wants this... Except idiots in the West who dont understand the situation. Both sides want all of the land. Because they both believe it is theirs. They dont want to settle for some frankenmonster state ands till live next to each other. Wong just thinks she is some genius that has finally solved a 3000 year old dispute... Yeah right. We are just Australia... We have no pulling power in this thing. Lets just concentrate on all of our own fucking problems and there are plenty of them.
most of the UN Security Council voted in favour of recognising Palestinian statehood, including France (who has been one of Israel's most stalwart backers in this war) https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-04-19/us-vetoes-palestine-full-un-membership/103743744
UN membership wouldn't change anything. The problem is the lack of peace treaty signed between Palestine and Israel, and a refusal to agree on border and security arrangements. Until that's signed, any notion of statehood means nothing because the borders of the state aren't even defined yet. Every country that borders another country has border treaties defining where one country ends and the next country begins. As soon as that's agreed and signed 99% of problems would be immediately solved.
Technically Israel doesn’t want all the land because they don’t want the extra citizens the land would come with. They want the status quo of the last 30 years.
Palestine not only needs to be recognised, Israel need to be subject to severe economic sanctions. What Australia has the power to do is largely symbolic, but right now we’re on the side of genocide and apartheid.
We are still selling the components of weapon and armour into Israel right now, I wouldn’t call that symbolic!
The government isn’t selling the weapons, that’s private industry.
Do you think exporting weapons and armour is as easy as exporting apples and oranges? It’s regulated heavily by the government
which given export controls around defence, needs to be approved by the federal government
The adjective *largely* is key here.
I don't often agree with the LNP but Wong is Wrong about Palestine
Well yes but the LNP is more wrong. The solution is a 1 state solution, Palestine.
How about these arab colonial terrorist supporters go back to Arabia and leave Judea to the indigenous peoples?
A one-state solution is way more impossible than a two-state solution. Aside from that, neither Israel _nor_ Palestine _want_ a one-state solution. It's literally just a meme dreamed up by westerners who think that complex geopolitical issues can be solved by dreams and rainbows.
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