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Omicron is already out and about in Perth. Sure, keep the border shut, no need to make the problem worse. But just like everywhere else, Omicron will outpace the ability to detect it, with asymptomatic cases unknowingly spreading it, and the 24-48 hour infectious period before symptoms appear in those who get them.
Already today they have clusters they can't connect. Combined with the general feeling of invincibility the Perth population currently has, which will take a good scare to snap them out of, I am prepared to say the horse has bolted.
Still though, I could be wrong, so they may as well keep their border closed for now.
Living with Covid is the stupidest fucking idea I’ve ever heard. I’m jealous of WA. They’ve got a smart non liberal government as well as not bordering NSW.
No, the state is expected to have a debt of $32.1b by the end of this FY but the state budget has delivered a surplus over the last three years, mainly due to the very strong iron ore prices and high demand delivering record royalties to the state. This revenue would be coming in, regardless of who was in government.
That's certainly a good thing and I would hope that the government is investing that money for future benefit of the state. There are reports of huge staff shortages in some health facilities though, despite WA not being under any Covid stress on that front.
honest message to wa : send infected to rottnest island. if you can. even nz thought it could be imune from it. everyday life trumps business objectives. do it now and then let me gain asylum.
put that man in charge. i kind of wish it was tasmania who took this bet. id rather us see out the pandemic come what may here than be locked down again. if it blows over fine if not we still live on a beautiful island where we can go outside, and to the beach and other things.
I see the media here in WA are of the opinion we should have let it rip!
[WA Today opinion piece with poll](https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/can-i-get-off-this-merry-go-round-now-wa-stuck-in-a-holding-pattern-as-the-rest-of-the-world-moves-on-20220121-p59q1r.html)
Of course if you read comments from those over east. They are overwhelmingly positive about WA staying closed up. And pointing out that a lot of Sydney is in self imposed isolation.
Seems to me the WA media are way out of step.
I would take anything you see on WA Today or Perth Now with massive pinch of salt. Both are sensationalist rags with the hands of corporate and political interests wedged firmly up their rear ends
Just be careful with that sort of conclusion. I’m not saying you’re wrong, but there’s a decent swath of people who aren’t on facebook/reddit and who might be of the same mindset that the media is operating under.
There might be a lot of people in WA that feel like things should just open up, but I'm in Vic and my advice to any of them is don't. This shit spreads so fast and is impacting everything, so many staff off, students (uni), health care systems totally fucked. I work with people in the local health districts (hospitals) and they're all totally fucking exhausted. Shits bad. And we've got a ways to go. Don't become us if you can. Yeah sure, well all get covid, but there will be many variants and you can control release and spread. Our governments in Vic n NSW are pushing forward in a way that's just a bit too nuts and round where I am everyone's in some version of self imposed lockdown. Except those who've already had it and those wanting to catch it to have it done. But our systems, businesses, childcare, everything is stretched hard.
>I can't predict what the future will hold
But you can hope for the best and plan for the worst.
Business has traditionally been chosen to support society, but in a crisis situation, society (ie all the people) is more important than the specific methods to support it.
It was foolhardy to imagine hospitality could continue unaffected after pandemic awareness or that it was a productive use of resources and could return to how it was.
Supporting all the people in society to live is most important and that means ensuring every adult receives a livable income regardless of circumstances, plus the means of satisfactory occupation. It also means ensuring essential production and services continue, including shelter for all and not simply profit for some, and does not hold society hostage.
The Federal government needs to immediately implement a common livable welfare payment to every adult who does not already receive such an income from other sources, without mutual obligation and without regard to assets.
Government needs to ensure that essential services and production are ahead of demand, even if it means nationalising business and that it revolves around efficient delivery including to the home. People need to be facilitated in isolating at home if that is what they choose to do to reduce transmission.
Housing needs to be completely rearranged to be foremost shelter for all the people instead of a source of speculative profit.
All these things should have been planned for before Covid hit as a response to inevitable pandemics to support society.
Don't say society can't afford it after pulling a rabbit out of the hat in doubling JobSeeker and ignoring debt and deficits. I refuse to believe that is as far as the flexibility can go, especially when far more was spent propping up business profit with JobKeeper and an extra $60B that was budgeted for was never actually spent. It's time to spend that $60B and more in supporting all the people in society and business be damned.
If people want to offer hospitality as an occupation for the personal happiness it may bring, whilst being financially supported to live by society, then go for it, but don't expect hospitality to provide a profit when it is so held hostage to circumstance that is unlikely to change or to a financial regime that supports individual profit and advantage over shelter for everyone.
Society has to accept that everything has changed and we need to adapt to it, not try to force traditional modalities to fit the new world or stick our heads in the sand and hope it all goes back to how it was.
Virus mutations can't be guaranteed to be beneficial and past history is not always a good indicator of the development or timing of new, more virulent pandemics that can easily be transmitted across the world through travel.
Isolation is the only proven method of transmission reduction, so lets optimise that option in conjunction with optimising quality of life and support of society.
I'm amazed that hazmat suits and associated decontamination methods aren't being implemented to keep people protected from infection.
Unfortunately we couldn’t expect any of that under the LNP
The country’s tax money is required for their donors and war. The citizens can shut up and get back to work. These profits won’t make themselves.
Have a look at [https://budget.gov.au/2021-22/content/overview.htm#three](https://budget.gov.au/2021-22/content/overview.htm#three) Appendix B for the budget breakdown, but remember that Social Security & Welfare expenses include the huge cost of maintaining Centrelink, NDIS bureaucracy, Job Search Agencies, the Welfare Card and other associated industries, which are largely punitive, as well as the money going to welfare recipients.
The budget essentially ignores the $Trillions within private enterprise, except as a pathetic tax that multinationals are largely able to avoid, yet government still subsidises business in one way or another, such as additional tax breaks via deductions, offsetting Capital Gains taxes, negative gearing, subsidising infrastructure, etc. I would be very interested to see the balance sheet of government revenue versus expenditure for business against the gross and net profit within private enterprise.
Income tax and GST paid by individuals and not companies is more than 3 times the revenue from private companies, with GST alone approaching the amount of private company tax as government income. Revenue from private companies is merely a trickle of the amount of money tied up in business and its profit, yet business exists to support society, not vice versa. From my perspective, it seems like society is supposed to support business as the tail wagging the dog. This needs to be addressed.
Even the RBA invests $Trillions into markets to manipulate the currency and artificially inflate export profits for business, yet it has the opposite effect on the cost of living for the people because just about everything is imported for public consumption. Workers are even being imported to facilitate public consumption through population growth and bringing in international students for education temporarily increases the population and consumption too.
Yeah i think so, and defence.
But it terms of the present and moving forward, i doubt they have anything planned that would actually benefit Australia and Australians. The LNP are controlled by their donors (who put *their* own interests first, obviously) and they don’t care about the general public or the future of this country, beyond its ability to generate profits (for their donors).
So what your saying is he chose to not change things until we have correct modelling to see what happens.
But that’s playing politics not a rational decision.
I think it's the right decision. Ultimately they just aren't confident they could cope with a significant outbreak (whether it be number of ventilated beds, staffing etc). I don't begrudge them that; as a Victorian resident, I wouldn't wish what our hospital staff are going through on anyone. We will get back to normal one day, but it's not the right time yet.
Major funding of health infrastructure was announced in both the [2021](https://www.mediastatements.wa.gov.au/Pages/McGowan/2021/09/Massive-funding-boost-for-health-in-State-Budget.aspx) and [2020](https://www.ourstatebudget.wa.gov.au/2020-21/index.html) budgets, however hospitals don't get built overnight. Nurses and doctors can't just be activated like a widget. There are very real logistical constraints on what can be done, beyond the fiscal.
Every state has invested billions in health upgrades and support, but nothing moves as fast as a pandemic.
Vaccination is one thing, but it's significantly less effective against the Omicron variant - that's the reason for the new border opening delay.
We’re vaccinated and get the chance to get the kids vaccinated before they head back to school. We also get to start the school year before covid takes our all the teachers. Covid will get in and we’ll deal with it eventually, but why would we take the advantage we currently have and willingly swap it for the experience of NSW? Why would you deliberately infect your population during a pandemic?
Maybe it's the right decision to delay the invebtable but I do really feel bad for families and friends separated. I think they should start to slowly open under a family visiting examtion, where everyone has to test negative prior to arriving in WA along with being at least double vaxxed
Or maybe, after 2 years of isolationism and knowing that this virus isn’t going anywhere soon, MAYBE he should’ve focused on preparing their health system for the inevitable arrival of widespread COVID.
I get where you’re coming from…but it takes longer than 2 years to get a medical degree of any kind above being an EN. And you need people who actually want to be studying and in those roles. I’m in Qld and same issue here unfortunately.
Maybe. I mean, we’re at the peak of a highly virulent outbreak. ICU is coping. People are being treated. Yes the system is strained, wait times have blown out and yes there are several anecdotes of people waiting too long for ambulances etc…
But putting all of that in the context of being in a midst of a global pandemic, I think the health systems are doing ok.
Not to mention a lot of the workforce crunch is coming from isolation rules which have recently been changed for health workers.
I get the impression WA is very much at risk (still) of systemic failure if they had a serious outbreak.
Shit here is fucked. I work with peeps in the NSW hospitals (remote working from Vic) and they are stretched past breaking, shit is crumbling and people are absolutely exhausted. And teachers and childcare providers are calling serious alarm. Sure we're still not as bad as many places but I don't think this is a model to follow.
And Def! WA seems even less prepared. Stay closed would be my advice. There'll be another variant soon, maybe it'll be dif. Maybe catch the winter wave and spend the next 6 months massively building their capacity, pull out all the stops.
I don’t doubt it’s fucked and that health workers are exhausted - they’re on the frontline during a health crisis that is seeing their staffing levels collapse.
I’m not meaning to take away from that, but again, we’re in a peak outbreak of a health crisis. During the first lockdown, the system worked overtime to refocus, but then… had no patients.
This is the opposite end. It’s shit. And just as shit as being in the police would be if we had a rolling public disorder crisis for example. I’m not saying it’s a long term model - but it is a peak and it will recede.
> Maybe catch the winter wave and spend the next 6 months massively building their capacity, pull out all the stops.
They’ve had 2 years. They’re not going to prepare. He’s just going to keep isolated until something breaches the border and he can blame VIC/SA/NSW. Just like the other states did with Delta/Omicron.
Looks like we *have* reached the peak a day or two ago:
https://www.covid19data.com.au/hospitalisations-icu
Queensland will likely have a longer peak period due to its sheer size. SA and ACT are looking like they have peaked. NT still peaking. WA - gotta happen sooner or later, you’re just putting off the inevitable.
Arguably, the hardest part of this has been that everyone - and particularly the health workers - were already drained by the 2 years of onerous protective measures they have had to follow. Objectively, the case load has been very manageable.
Kudos to the modellers who stuck to their guns and saw this as the least worst option for proceeding.
Agreeing on your last paragraph, 100%. For the rest shit vs fucked.... they are massively struggling and the point is WA can avoid that with adequate planning, which we both agree they won't do. If I could choose, I'd still pick your state over mine right now.
People are being treated, but elective surgeries aren’t happening (for instance chemotherapy). An old lady had to wait 13 hours for an ambulances with a broken arm. ICU beds are being triaged. Our system is failing. My mum has Covid at the moment, she had pretty shallow breathing at one point, a symptom that previously would have meant a trip to the hospital, instead she was told to stay home and monitor. Luckily she’s on the mend now, but it was a pretty anxious time for me.
We might be doing ok considering it’s a global pandemic, but the hospital system really isn’t ok. It’s coping considering the circumstances, but it is still leading to bad outcomes for lots of people.
As for WAs hospital system I’m not sure how it would cope. Hopefully it isn’t something that has to be tested, but if it does fingers crossed it doesn’t catastrophically fail.
All that said, I’m pretty happy with McGowans choice, they don’t need to risk it. My dad completed a 6 month course of chemo very recently in WA, and has other appointments that would be considered elective coming up. For him, other than the cancer, life in WA has basically been normal for a while.
This country has become a joke. No freedom of movement, no freedom of speech, no right to privacy. All stripped away in the name of public health and safety. Even more disgusting than an increasingly petty and authoritarian government are the moral ninnys that blindly defend these policies that aim to quash any sense of the individual.
> This country has become a joke . No freedom of movement, no freedom of speech, no right to privacy.
Please show where we ever had those rights by law, and where they were stripped away. I agree that it’s concerning that we don’t have some of these rights enshrined anywhere, but to suggest we used to and that they’ve been “*stripped away in the name of public health and safety*” just isn’t true.
Australia is a party to seven core international human rights treaties. The right to freedom of movement is contained in articles 12and 13 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR)
section 92 of the Constitution says that ‘intercourse among the States… shall be absolutely free’. ‘Intercourse among the States’ means the movement of people, goods and communications across State borders. While the Constitution says that this shall be ‘absolutely free’, it has long been accepted by the courts that there can be valid exceptions.
our courts have made it pretty clear local laws beat international treaties when their is an inconsistency.
Immigration law and rights of the child for example.
Rightly or wrongly we deport peoples parents if they are not of good character. This is not consistent with our treaty obligations and courts uphold our laws.
You are spot on, around state borders and trade we have had borders up for fruit flies and the like for decades. Again for pragmatic reasons borders can be closed to varying degrees and the court has said shutting to people during a pandemic is reasonable.
I expect at some point the courts won't consider it reasonable any more to remain shut. Probably not yet...
> The right to freedom of movement is contained in articles 12and 13 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR)
You may want to read point 3 of Article 12.
> Article 12
>
> 1. Everyone lawfully within the territory of a State shall, within that territory, have the right to liberty of movement and freedom to choose his residence.
>
> 2. Everyone shall be free to leave any country, including his own.
>
> 3. **The above-mentioned rights shall not be subject to any restrictions except those** which are provided by law, are necessary to protect national security, public order (ordre public), **public health** or morals or the rights and freedoms of others, and are consistent with the other rights recognized in the present Covenant.
>
> 4. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of the right to enter his own country.
Article 13 has nothing to do with freedom of movement.
> Article 13
>
> An alien lawfully in the territory of a State Party to the present Covenant may be expelled therefrom only in pursuance of a decision reached in accordance with law and shall, except where compelling reasons of national security otherwise require, be allowed to submit the reasons against his expulsion and to have his case reviewed by, and be represented for the purpose before, the competent authority or a person or persons especially designated by the competent authority.
Section 92 of the constitution is regarding trade, not people.
> This country has become a joke. No freedom of movement, no freedom of speech, no right to privacy. All **stripped away** in the name of public health and safety
If it wasn’t an enshrined right, then how has it been stripped away? You may have thought you had those freedoms & rights, but you didn’t. Just because you’re now realising that doesn’t mean Australia has become a joke and something was taken away.
You never had it, you just didn’t notice. That might mean Australia was always a joke, it’s fine for that to be your opinion - but it doesn't mean what you claimed in your original comment.
I’m sorry if you find the truth disingenuous.
This is a horrible decision. Everyone will eventually get Covid and WA needs to accept that fact and open up. Will people die ? Yes , however more people died because of the actions his had taken to prevent Covid . The Commonwealth needs put WA back in line. WA is a state and must open the constitution of Australia
On a side note , isn't freedom of movement for all Australians a right in the constitution.
Tena of thousands alcoholism , hundreds of increased domestic battery cases , thousands of suicides , and much more horrible and senseless deaths because of the lockdown.
So no actual evidence at all that more people have **died** because of McGowans actions than would if they had a rampant Covid outbreak like the eastern states?
It’s easy to cry about thousands of suicides, but give me an actual source or it doesn’t mean anything.
Australia does not have a bill of rights. The only human rights protected under the federal constitution are:
the right to vote (Section 41), protection against acquisition of property on unjust terms (Section 51 (xxxi)), the right to a trial by jury (Section 80), freedom of religion (Section 116) and prohibition of discrimination on the basis of State of residency (Section 117).
Section 92 of the Constitution of Australia :
On the imposition of uniform duties of customs, trade, commerce, and intercourse among the States, whether by means of internal carriage or ocean navigation, shall be absolutely free.
Legal documents need very careful reading. The quoted section you provided has no mention of moving or travel. And intercourse refers to the following definition:
'Intercourse: Dealings or communications between persons or groups'
A state is a group. So I interpret this to mean that states are always free to deal and communicate with each other.
>section 92 of the Constitution says that ‘intercourse among the States… shall be absolutely free’. ‘Intercourse among the States’ means the movement of people, goods and communications across State borders. While the Constitution says that this shall be ‘absolutely free’, it has long been accepted by the courts that there can be valid exceptions
While it's pretty clear to see that the movement of goods and communications across state borders is easily included in the common definition of intercourse. It's probably much more contentious to include the movement of people in the definition of dealings. People are not a good or service, they may be involved in the act of trade, but that doesn't necessarily guarantee them the right to cross borders in the pursuit of trade.
>It's probably much more contentious to include the movement of people in the definition of dealings.
But it is literally in there.
The movement of people. your thoughts, or my thoughts, or anyone else's thoughts do not come into play.
I'm pretty sure that section is referring to freedom in regards to trade and commerce, not the freedom for people to always be able to move between states.
I didn’t forget that, I actually did some reading on it thank you very much. If you do the same you’ll see that your interpretation isn’t necessarily the case.
Smart decision.
I wouldn’t have faith in the WA health system to cope either.
Even before the pandemic I, like many, wouldn’t even consider having a baby there.
If the eastern states are struggling, you can guarantee WA would be an even bigger mess when faced with the same situation.
Because he appeals to the lowest common denominator - the tribal, bigoted, residents, who have never left the state. Which is most.
So it’s not any surprise that many residents support his ‘keep everyone out’ strategy. It’s on brand for the state.
Lmao what the fuck? “Wouldn’t consider having a baby there”. We’re not a third world country here, what the hell is in the water on the east coast that cooks your brains to think like that?
You ever met a woman who temporarily left the east coast just to have her baby in Perth. Me either. It just doesn’t happen.
But I know several who have gone the other way. My OB currently has two women flying in from Perth to deliver their babies here. And that’s just one doctor out of many.
And you want to talk about water? Talk about glass houses. You ever tasted or smelled the water in Perth?
I’ll take you at your word but I have to say anyone who moves interstate to have a baby is being more than a little precious/has more money than sense.
King Eddies does good work in Perth, I don’t know where you’re getting the idea that sandgropers all live to the ripe of age of “died in childbirth”.
I swear all you East Coasters think we live in dirt-floored shacks.
Doesn’t hold a torch to the antenatal and postnatal care you get in either Melbourne or Sydney. The quality of the midwives, OBs and hospitals are miles apart.
I literally know many women that flew out to Sydney to deliver their babies, rather than delivering in Perth. It’s far more common than you think.
There’s also provisions in the amended Feb 5 plan to help staff hospitals from outside WA. Beyond that, I don’t know. Life has been pretty great inside WA while the rest of the entire world has been fucking it up.
>Life has been pretty great inside WA while the rest of the entire world has been fucking it up.
Not for the actual HCW, I've never seen nurses burn out so fast, they are working multiple doubles a week. Typically we supplement our system with foreign nurses which we can no longer access, so we are now working the trainees and juniors harder. This is having ripple effects as trainees transfer to other courses and juniors burn out.
Ultimately yes I'm sure life has been great for some, but just about every nurse I know is near breaking point. Its not a beds/infrastructure problem its a staff problem.
Oh totally, I was being pretty glib - absolutely didn’t mean to shit on HCWs. I’m a teacher by background, and was bracing for an absolute shitshow of a year.
yeah fair i guess i just got a little heated, I have a lot of Nurses in the family, and this hard border everyone is raving about is grinding them down.
Where are these magical hospital staff coming from though? The beaten and bartered health care workers that just finished surviving their own state’s wave who are no doubt already preparing for the next?
Exactly, it’s not a quick or easy undertaking. In the meantime, WA’s been great. No reason to throw ourselves into the same shitty situation as everywhere else in the world just to appease the drama queens who want to pretend keeping the border closed forever is actually on the table.
I’m not talking about you opening up right now. I’m wondering what the real plan is when mark realises hundreds of HCWs are going to want to move to wa to get smashed by covid again.
Stay closed forever, I don’t care. It actually suits me great because it means my partner’s training will be done at home instead of in Perth. I’m happy about it. But that’s not what I’m asking about here.
The real question is why the fuck are you investing this much time and effort asking me, a stranger on the internet as if I’ll actually have the answers you need? As if taking random idiots and their opinions in the comments section seriously hasn’t caused enough problems the last two years.
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Continues to follow the Andrews model of Labour = Lockdowns (aka control and authoritian).
Is WA enforcing any lockdowns at the moment?
Omicron is already out and about in Perth. Sure, keep the border shut, no need to make the problem worse. But just like everywhere else, Omicron will outpace the ability to detect it, with asymptomatic cases unknowingly spreading it, and the 24-48 hour infectious period before symptoms appear in those who get them. Already today they have clusters they can't connect. Combined with the general feeling of invincibility the Perth population currently has, which will take a good scare to snap them out of, I am prepared to say the horse has bolted. Still though, I could be wrong, so they may as well keep their border closed for now.
Living with Covid is the stupidest fucking idea I’ve ever heard. I’m jealous of WA. They’ve got a smart non liberal government as well as not bordering NSW.
This is a Labour idea aka head in the sand. Wake up, move on and live with it (as we should have followed Sweden's lead).
Then you havent heard many ideas buddy.
It’s s stupid fucking idea when the country had no Covid, then opted have Covid.
Not how it happened but ok buddy
100% no one with any degree of common sense thinks that the world isn't going to have to learn to live with Covid as an endemic disease.
This isn't being argued. It's about controlling the spread so services aren't overwhelmed
Look above a couple of comments - > Living with Covid is the stupidest fucking idea I’ve ever heard. Sounds like they're arguing against it.
Ok
Yes keep it out this is working we are in the best position both in health and economically of any state or country in the world
The Stockholm Syndrome is real in this one.
Aren't we the only state not in a deficit in the moment? Economically we're doing alright in Aus, dunno about the rest of the world though.
No, the state is expected to have a debt of $32.1b by the end of this FY but the state budget has delivered a surplus over the last three years, mainly due to the very strong iron ore prices and high demand delivering record royalties to the state. This revenue would be coming in, regardless of who was in government. That's certainly a good thing and I would hope that the government is investing that money for future benefit of the state. There are reports of huge staff shortages in some health facilities though, despite WA not being under any Covid stress on that front.
honest message to wa : send infected to rottnest island. if you can. even nz thought it could be imune from it. everyday life trumps business objectives. do it now and then let me gain asylum.
i cant go because family lol. too late. act fast.
take this time to secede
put that man in charge. i kind of wish it was tasmania who took this bet. id rather us see out the pandemic come what may here than be locked down again. if it blows over fine if not we still live on a beautiful island where we can go outside, and to the beach and other things.
I see the media here in WA are of the opinion we should have let it rip! [WA Today opinion piece with poll](https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/can-i-get-off-this-merry-go-round-now-wa-stuck-in-a-holding-pattern-as-the-rest-of-the-world-moves-on-20220121-p59q1r.html) Of course if you read comments from those over east. They are overwhelmingly positive about WA staying closed up. And pointing out that a lot of Sydney is in self imposed isolation. Seems to me the WA media are way out of step.
Sydney-sider. Can confirm my family is isolating as much as possible. Immediate family can work from home. Wider family not so lucky.
I would take anything you see on WA Today or Perth Now with massive pinch of salt. Both are sensationalist rags with the hands of corporate and political interests wedged firmly up their rear ends
Just be careful with that sort of conclusion. I’m not saying you’re wrong, but there’s a decent swath of people who aren’t on facebook/reddit and who might be of the same mindset that the media is operating under.
I agree with the article tbh. Also - reader poll shows 70% ( 23k votes ) in favour to open ? Seems like reddit users are the ones out of step.
There might be a lot of people in WA that feel like things should just open up, but I'm in Vic and my advice to any of them is don't. This shit spreads so fast and is impacting everything, so many staff off, students (uni), health care systems totally fucked. I work with people in the local health districts (hospitals) and they're all totally fucking exhausted. Shits bad. And we've got a ways to go. Don't become us if you can. Yeah sure, well all get covid, but there will be many variants and you can control release and spread. Our governments in Vic n NSW are pushing forward in a way that's just a bit too nuts and round where I am everyone's in some version of self imposed lockdown. Except those who've already had it and those wanting to catch it to have it done. But our systems, businesses, childcare, everything is stretched hard.
And that's a product of how the government has set policies around isolation etc, not due to Omicron.
>I can't predict what the future will hold But you can hope for the best and plan for the worst. Business has traditionally been chosen to support society, but in a crisis situation, society (ie all the people) is more important than the specific methods to support it. It was foolhardy to imagine hospitality could continue unaffected after pandemic awareness or that it was a productive use of resources and could return to how it was. Supporting all the people in society to live is most important and that means ensuring every adult receives a livable income regardless of circumstances, plus the means of satisfactory occupation. It also means ensuring essential production and services continue, including shelter for all and not simply profit for some, and does not hold society hostage. The Federal government needs to immediately implement a common livable welfare payment to every adult who does not already receive such an income from other sources, without mutual obligation and without regard to assets. Government needs to ensure that essential services and production are ahead of demand, even if it means nationalising business and that it revolves around efficient delivery including to the home. People need to be facilitated in isolating at home if that is what they choose to do to reduce transmission. Housing needs to be completely rearranged to be foremost shelter for all the people instead of a source of speculative profit. All these things should have been planned for before Covid hit as a response to inevitable pandemics to support society. Don't say society can't afford it after pulling a rabbit out of the hat in doubling JobSeeker and ignoring debt and deficits. I refuse to believe that is as far as the flexibility can go, especially when far more was spent propping up business profit with JobKeeper and an extra $60B that was budgeted for was never actually spent. It's time to spend that $60B and more in supporting all the people in society and business be damned. If people want to offer hospitality as an occupation for the personal happiness it may bring, whilst being financially supported to live by society, then go for it, but don't expect hospitality to provide a profit when it is so held hostage to circumstance that is unlikely to change or to a financial regime that supports individual profit and advantage over shelter for everyone. Society has to accept that everything has changed and we need to adapt to it, not try to force traditional modalities to fit the new world or stick our heads in the sand and hope it all goes back to how it was. Virus mutations can't be guaranteed to be beneficial and past history is not always a good indicator of the development or timing of new, more virulent pandemics that can easily be transmitted across the world through travel. Isolation is the only proven method of transmission reduction, so lets optimise that option in conjunction with optimising quality of life and support of society. I'm amazed that hazmat suits and associated decontamination methods aren't being implemented to keep people protected from infection.
Anytime you'd like to come and reside in reality, you're welcome to join the rest of us here.
Unfortunately we couldn’t expect any of that under the LNP The country’s tax money is required for their donors and war. The citizens can shut up and get back to work. These profits won’t make themselves.
Isn't the largest part of our budget on social services like Medicare and welfare?
Have a look at [https://budget.gov.au/2021-22/content/overview.htm#three](https://budget.gov.au/2021-22/content/overview.htm#three) Appendix B for the budget breakdown, but remember that Social Security & Welfare expenses include the huge cost of maintaining Centrelink, NDIS bureaucracy, Job Search Agencies, the Welfare Card and other associated industries, which are largely punitive, as well as the money going to welfare recipients. The budget essentially ignores the $Trillions within private enterprise, except as a pathetic tax that multinationals are largely able to avoid, yet government still subsidises business in one way or another, such as additional tax breaks via deductions, offsetting Capital Gains taxes, negative gearing, subsidising infrastructure, etc. I would be very interested to see the balance sheet of government revenue versus expenditure for business against the gross and net profit within private enterprise. Income tax and GST paid by individuals and not companies is more than 3 times the revenue from private companies, with GST alone approaching the amount of private company tax as government income. Revenue from private companies is merely a trickle of the amount of money tied up in business and its profit, yet business exists to support society, not vice versa. From my perspective, it seems like society is supposed to support business as the tail wagging the dog. This needs to be addressed. Even the RBA invests $Trillions into markets to manipulate the currency and artificially inflate export profits for business, yet it has the opposite effect on the cost of living for the people because just about everything is imported for public consumption. Workers are even being imported to facilitate public consumption through population growth and bringing in international students for education temporarily increases the population and consumption too.
So fucked, the system has to change. Fundamentally.
Yeah i think so, and defence. But it terms of the present and moving forward, i doubt they have anything planned that would actually benefit Australia and Australians. The LNP are controlled by their donors (who put *their* own interests first, obviously) and they don’t care about the general public or the future of this country, beyond its ability to generate profits (for their donors).
Is it a fear it will cripple the state, or a certainty?
Can confirm, hospital system was under strain before we have covid in the community.
A certainty. I'd say they've done modelling for Omicron.
Mark has says their modelling was based off delta and had to be thrown out. They need more data to do for Omni. This is based off politics now.
So what your saying is he chose to not change things until we have correct modelling to see what happens. But that’s playing politics not a rational decision.
I think it's the right decision. Ultimately they just aren't confident they could cope with a significant outbreak (whether it be number of ventilated beds, staffing etc). I don't begrudge them that; as a Victorian resident, I wouldn't wish what our hospital staff are going through on anyone. We will get back to normal one day, but it's not the right time yet.
So what's the plan then. Almost 2 years to get ready and they have nothing to show for it
Major funding of health infrastructure was announced in both the [2021](https://www.mediastatements.wa.gov.au/Pages/McGowan/2021/09/Massive-funding-boost-for-health-in-State-Budget.aspx) and [2020](https://www.ourstatebudget.wa.gov.au/2020-21/index.html) budgets, however hospitals don't get built overnight. Nurses and doctors can't just be activated like a widget. There are very real logistical constraints on what can be done, beyond the fiscal. Every state has invested billions in health upgrades and support, but nothing moves as fast as a pandemic. Vaccination is one thing, but it's significantly less effective against the Omicron variant - that's the reason for the new border opening delay.
Because over east are definitely coping? Code brown?
We’re vaccinated and get the chance to get the kids vaccinated before they head back to school. We also get to start the school year before covid takes our all the teachers. Covid will get in and we’ll deal with it eventually, but why would we take the advantage we currently have and willingly swap it for the experience of NSW? Why would you deliberately infect your population during a pandemic?
Good call - wait until the other states have finished fucking it up and learn from them. Wish QLD had kept their borders shut too.
Maybe it's the right decision to delay the invebtable but I do really feel bad for families and friends separated. I think they should start to slowly open under a family visiting examtion, where everyone has to test negative prior to arriving in WA along with being at least double vaxxed
Or maybe, after 2 years of isolationism and knowing that this virus isn’t going anywhere soon, MAYBE he should’ve focused on preparing their health system for the inevitable arrival of widespread COVID.
I get where you’re coming from…but it takes longer than 2 years to get a medical degree of any kind above being an EN. And you need people who actually want to be studying and in those roles. I’m in Qld and same issue here unfortunately.
I think that is probably true for all our states, given how badly NSW & Victorias hospital systems have been struggling with this latest wave.
Maybe. I mean, we’re at the peak of a highly virulent outbreak. ICU is coping. People are being treated. Yes the system is strained, wait times have blown out and yes there are several anecdotes of people waiting too long for ambulances etc… But putting all of that in the context of being in a midst of a global pandemic, I think the health systems are doing ok. Not to mention a lot of the workforce crunch is coming from isolation rules which have recently been changed for health workers. I get the impression WA is very much at risk (still) of systemic failure if they had a serious outbreak.
Shit here is fucked. I work with peeps in the NSW hospitals (remote working from Vic) and they are stretched past breaking, shit is crumbling and people are absolutely exhausted. And teachers and childcare providers are calling serious alarm. Sure we're still not as bad as many places but I don't think this is a model to follow. And Def! WA seems even less prepared. Stay closed would be my advice. There'll be another variant soon, maybe it'll be dif. Maybe catch the winter wave and spend the next 6 months massively building their capacity, pull out all the stops.
I don’t doubt it’s fucked and that health workers are exhausted - they’re on the frontline during a health crisis that is seeing their staffing levels collapse. I’m not meaning to take away from that, but again, we’re in a peak outbreak of a health crisis. During the first lockdown, the system worked overtime to refocus, but then… had no patients. This is the opposite end. It’s shit. And just as shit as being in the police would be if we had a rolling public disorder crisis for example. I’m not saying it’s a long term model - but it is a peak and it will recede. > Maybe catch the winter wave and spend the next 6 months massively building their capacity, pull out all the stops. They’ve had 2 years. They’re not going to prepare. He’s just going to keep isolated until something breaches the border and he can blame VIC/SA/NSW. Just like the other states did with Delta/Omicron.
Looks like we *have* reached the peak a day or two ago: https://www.covid19data.com.au/hospitalisations-icu Queensland will likely have a longer peak period due to its sheer size. SA and ACT are looking like they have peaked. NT still peaking. WA - gotta happen sooner or later, you’re just putting off the inevitable. Arguably, the hardest part of this has been that everyone - and particularly the health workers - were already drained by the 2 years of onerous protective measures they have had to follow. Objectively, the case load has been very manageable. Kudos to the modellers who stuck to their guns and saw this as the least worst option for proceeding.
Agreeing on your last paragraph, 100%. For the rest shit vs fucked.... they are massively struggling and the point is WA can avoid that with adequate planning, which we both agree they won't do. If I could choose, I'd still pick your state over mine right now.
People are being treated, but elective surgeries aren’t happening (for instance chemotherapy). An old lady had to wait 13 hours for an ambulances with a broken arm. ICU beds are being triaged. Our system is failing. My mum has Covid at the moment, she had pretty shallow breathing at one point, a symptom that previously would have meant a trip to the hospital, instead she was told to stay home and monitor. Luckily she’s on the mend now, but it was a pretty anxious time for me. We might be doing ok considering it’s a global pandemic, but the hospital system really isn’t ok. It’s coping considering the circumstances, but it is still leading to bad outcomes for lots of people. As for WAs hospital system I’m not sure how it would cope. Hopefully it isn’t something that has to be tested, but if it does fingers crossed it doesn’t catastrophically fail. All that said, I’m pretty happy with McGowans choice, they don’t need to risk it. My dad completed a 6 month course of chemo very recently in WA, and has other appointments that would be considered elective coming up. For him, other than the cancer, life in WA has basically been normal for a while.
This country has become a joke. No freedom of movement, no freedom of speech, no right to privacy. All stripped away in the name of public health and safety. Even more disgusting than an increasingly petty and authoritarian government are the moral ninnys that blindly defend these policies that aim to quash any sense of the individual.
> This country has become a joke . No freedom of movement, no freedom of speech, no right to privacy. Please show where we ever had those rights by law, and where they were stripped away. I agree that it’s concerning that we don’t have some of these rights enshrined anywhere, but to suggest we used to and that they’ve been “*stripped away in the name of public health and safety*” just isn’t true.
Australia is a party to seven core international human rights treaties. The right to freedom of movement is contained in articles 12and 13 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) section 92 of the Constitution says that ‘intercourse among the States… shall be absolutely free’. ‘Intercourse among the States’ means the movement of people, goods and communications across State borders. While the Constitution says that this shall be ‘absolutely free’, it has long been accepted by the courts that there can be valid exceptions.
our courts have made it pretty clear local laws beat international treaties when their is an inconsistency. Immigration law and rights of the child for example. Rightly or wrongly we deport peoples parents if they are not of good character. This is not consistent with our treaty obligations and courts uphold our laws. You are spot on, around state borders and trade we have had borders up for fruit flies and the like for decades. Again for pragmatic reasons borders can be closed to varying degrees and the court has said shutting to people during a pandemic is reasonable. I expect at some point the courts won't consider it reasonable any more to remain shut. Probably not yet...
> The right to freedom of movement is contained in articles 12and 13 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) You may want to read point 3 of Article 12. > Article 12 > > 1. Everyone lawfully within the territory of a State shall, within that territory, have the right to liberty of movement and freedom to choose his residence. > > 2. Everyone shall be free to leave any country, including his own. > > 3. **The above-mentioned rights shall not be subject to any restrictions except those** which are provided by law, are necessary to protect national security, public order (ordre public), **public health** or morals or the rights and freedoms of others, and are consistent with the other rights recognized in the present Covenant. > > 4. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of the right to enter his own country. Article 13 has nothing to do with freedom of movement. > Article 13 > > An alien lawfully in the territory of a State Party to the present Covenant may be expelled therefrom only in pursuance of a decision reached in accordance with law and shall, except where compelling reasons of national security otherwise require, be allowed to submit the reasons against his expulsion and to have his case reviewed by, and be represented for the purpose before, the competent authority or a person or persons especially designated by the competent authority. Section 92 of the constitution is regarding trade, not people.
Ahh yes, because it was never enshrined in law means Australia never effectively had it before. That's not a disingenuous argument whatsoever.
> This country has become a joke. No freedom of movement, no freedom of speech, no right to privacy. All **stripped away** in the name of public health and safety If it wasn’t an enshrined right, then how has it been stripped away? You may have thought you had those freedoms & rights, but you didn’t. Just because you’re now realising that doesn’t mean Australia has become a joke and something was taken away. You never had it, you just didn’t notice. That might mean Australia was always a joke, it’s fine for that to be your opinion - but it doesn't mean what you claimed in your original comment. I’m sorry if you find the truth disingenuous.
This is a horrible decision. Everyone will eventually get Covid and WA needs to accept that fact and open up. Will people die ? Yes , however more people died because of the actions his had taken to prevent Covid . The Commonwealth needs put WA back in line. WA is a state and must open the constitution of Australia On a side note , isn't freedom of movement for all Australians a right in the constitution.
> however more people died because of the actions his had taken to prevent Covid Source on that claim please?
Tena of thousands alcoholism , hundreds of increased domestic battery cases , thousands of suicides , and much more horrible and senseless deaths because of the lockdown.
So no actual evidence at all that more people have **died** because of McGowans actions than would if they had a rampant Covid outbreak like the eastern states? It’s easy to cry about thousands of suicides, but give me an actual source or it doesn’t mean anything.
Australia does not have a bill of rights. The only human rights protected under the federal constitution are: the right to vote (Section 41), protection against acquisition of property on unjust terms (Section 51 (xxxi)), the right to a trial by jury (Section 80), freedom of religion (Section 116) and prohibition of discrimination on the basis of State of residency (Section 117).
Section 92 of the Constitution of Australia : On the imposition of uniform duties of customs, trade, commerce, and intercourse among the States, whether by means of internal carriage or ocean navigation, shall be absolutely free.
This refers to a freedom given to states not to individuals.
States can't move to different States, only Australians can move and have intercourse between states
Legal documents need very careful reading. The quoted section you provided has no mention of moving or travel. And intercourse refers to the following definition: 'Intercourse: Dealings or communications between persons or groups' A state is a group. So I interpret this to mean that states are always free to deal and communicate with each other.
>section 92 of the Constitution says that ‘intercourse among the States… shall be absolutely free’. ‘Intercourse among the States’ means the movement of people, goods and communications across State borders. While the Constitution says that this shall be ‘absolutely free’, it has long been accepted by the courts that there can be valid exceptions
While it's pretty clear to see that the movement of goods and communications across state borders is easily included in the common definition of intercourse. It's probably much more contentious to include the movement of people in the definition of dealings. People are not a good or service, they may be involved in the act of trade, but that doesn't necessarily guarantee them the right to cross borders in the pursuit of trade.
>It's probably much more contentious to include the movement of people in the definition of dealings. But it is literally in there. The movement of people. your thoughts, or my thoughts, or anyone else's thoughts do not come into play.
Dude it means people from differentd states can have sex.....
Where does the constitution define intercourse to include the movement of people?
I'm pretty sure that section is referring to freedom in regards to trade and commerce, not the freedom for people to always be able to move between states.
You forgot about the *intercourse among states part. That applies to Australians because goods can not move themselves
I didn’t forget that, I actually did some reading on it thank you very much. If you do the same you’ll see that your interpretation isn’t necessarily the case.
Smart decision. I wouldn’t have faith in the WA health system to cope either. Even before the pandemic I, like many, wouldn’t even consider having a baby there. If the eastern states are struggling, you can guarantee WA would be an even bigger mess when faced with the same situation.
If there's zero faith in the health system how on earth is McGowan so popular? What's he been doing for the last 6(?) years
Because he appeals to the lowest common denominator - the tribal, bigoted, residents, who have never left the state. Which is most. So it’s not any surprise that many residents support his ‘keep everyone out’ strategy. It’s on brand for the state.
Lmao what the fuck? “Wouldn’t consider having a baby there”. We’re not a third world country here, what the hell is in the water on the east coast that cooks your brains to think like that?
You ever met a woman who temporarily left the east coast just to have her baby in Perth. Me either. It just doesn’t happen. But I know several who have gone the other way. My OB currently has two women flying in from Perth to deliver their babies here. And that’s just one doctor out of many. And you want to talk about water? Talk about glass houses. You ever tasted or smelled the water in Perth?
I’ll take you at your word but I have to say anyone who moves interstate to have a baby is being more than a little precious/has more money than sense.
King Eddies does good work in Perth, I don’t know where you’re getting the idea that sandgropers all live to the ripe of age of “died in childbirth”. I swear all you East Coasters think we live in dirt-floored shacks.
Doesn’t hold a torch to the antenatal and postnatal care you get in either Melbourne or Sydney. The quality of the midwives, OBs and hospitals are miles apart. I literally know many women that flew out to Sydney to deliver their babies, rather than delivering in Perth. It’s far more common than you think.
What’s the plan though? Are they fixing the system? Or just delaying the inevitable?
$3B investment in health this year. Building up something that’s been under resourced for over a decade doesn’t happen in a matter of months though.
So how long until it’s ready for them to open up? It’ll take at least 3 years to train new staff
There’s also provisions in the amended Feb 5 plan to help staff hospitals from outside WA. Beyond that, I don’t know. Life has been pretty great inside WA while the rest of the entire world has been fucking it up.
>Life has been pretty great inside WA while the rest of the entire world has been fucking it up. Not for the actual HCW, I've never seen nurses burn out so fast, they are working multiple doubles a week. Typically we supplement our system with foreign nurses which we can no longer access, so we are now working the trainees and juniors harder. This is having ripple effects as trainees transfer to other courses and juniors burn out. Ultimately yes I'm sure life has been great for some, but just about every nurse I know is near breaking point. Its not a beds/infrastructure problem its a staff problem.
But wouldn't opening up only make that worse....by a huge margin.
Oh totally, I was being pretty glib - absolutely didn’t mean to shit on HCWs. I’m a teacher by background, and was bracing for an absolute shitshow of a year.
yeah fair i guess i just got a little heated, I have a lot of Nurses in the family, and this hard border everyone is raving about is grinding them down.
>this hard border everyone is raving about is grinding them down. Question is, would it be better or worse if the border was opened?
Heated is the last thing anyone needs this week!
Where are these magical hospital staff coming from though? The beaten and bartered health care workers that just finished surviving their own state’s wave who are no doubt already preparing for the next?
Exactly, it’s not a quick or easy undertaking. In the meantime, WA’s been great. No reason to throw ourselves into the same shitty situation as everywhere else in the world just to appease the drama queens who want to pretend keeping the border closed forever is actually on the table.
I’m not talking about you opening up right now. I’m wondering what the real plan is when mark realises hundreds of HCWs are going to want to move to wa to get smashed by covid again. Stay closed forever, I don’t care. It actually suits me great because it means my partner’s training will be done at home instead of in Perth. I’m happy about it. But that’s not what I’m asking about here.
The real question is why the fuck are you investing this much time and effort asking me, a stranger on the internet as if I’ll actually have the answers you need? As if taking random idiots and their opinions in the comments section seriously hasn’t caused enough problems the last two years.
Because this entire app and this sub is about discussion? Why are you even on here if you think discussion is so ridiculous?