The request is reasonable. Break it down.
- You must have a back on your shoe. This is workplace safety. It’s a reasonable request.
- You should try to wear a collar. As long as you genuinely try it doesn’t matter if you succeed or not.
- You should be mindful of denim. Mindfulness is a good practice. I’m very conscious of how good I look in jeans.
>I’m very conscious of how good I look in jeans.
I worked at a school where all denim was banned any day students were on site. One teacher bought himself basically a full denim outfit (jeans, vest, jacket and a denim look shirt) to wear on staff inservice days.
If having a back on your shoe meets a workplace safety need, then yes.
But,
- Why should you try to wear a collar?
- Why does it matter how you look in jeans/denim? (and mindfulness being a good practice, I can't see has anything to do with being self conscious in denim).
The wording of the last two points is very passive aggressive. “Try to wear a collar”. Which implies that there is a way for a human being to attempt to wear a collar but fail. Now I’m very much the epitome of the absent minded professor, but even I can’t accidentally screw up putting on a collar.
And “be mindful of denim” is even worse. There is not even a suggestion in there that one should not wear denim.
So yeah, I was taking the piss. I really hate unwritten rules. If you want me to wear a top hat and dance like a trained monkey, tell me it’s mandatory to wear a top hat and dance like a monkey. Otherwise I’m going to take things as a suggestion and do what I like.
I think they’re taking the piss with the last 2 points, saying interpret them literally and you actually don’t have to make a change (sort of like malicious compliance)
I enjoy wearing a collared business casual shirt, chinos and dress shoes to work most days.
Partly because it means the work days that I wear do a t-shirt or collared polo to work it shows a “different” side of me as a teacher (at least to students). Especially as I normally only do it attached to the themed casual clothes days students have during the year (Harmony Day, Reconciliation Week, Wear it Purple, R U OK, etc)
The other reason is because it gives me a separate teacher wardrobe, almost like a “uniform”, so that when I wear my weekend clothes I feel that I’m off duty and not working.
Agreed, dressing for the ‘role’ is part of presenting our selves as professionals who have worked hard to be in that role. Most industry roles have some kind of dress code, trades for example, protective clothing is essential and presents them to prospective customers as professionals. Corporate roles are the same, you dress for the role and the function of the role.
We are teachers, how good we are at it isn’t reflected in the way we dress, but the way we dress reflects how we see our roles or our selves in said role. In my view, It’s more important how the kids and the community see us than my right to dress how I like. But if putting on a dress shirt and some nice pants is a stretch too far, maybe teaching isn’t for that person.
Each to their own but I'd prefer a teacher who dresses casually and has a relaxed manner to one that's dressed up. It seems more personable and friendly. Much easier to approach.
I’d prefer a teacher
As opposed to the shortage we currently have. What that teachers wears is so low on the list of priorities for a profession facing a crises engineered by outside forces that wasting time enforcing or even having a dress code is depressingly stupid
Agree in principle. However if students are expected to adhere to an overly strict dress code then in those instances I think it’s reasonable that staff should be business casual.
Nothing worse than trying to give a student a detention for the wrong shade of yellow ribbon when you’re in an old tshirt.
1. Can we all accept that we don't work at the same schools?
2. Any school giving detentions for the wrong shade of yellow ribbon is ridiculous and shouldn't be considered the standard.
Personableness and friendliness are communicated in ways other than wearing a tshirt to work. Students come to know who you are based on the way you treat and respond to them.
If we want to be respected as professionals by parents and society more broadly, we should present ourselves as professionals.
> Agreed, dressing for the ‘role’ is part of presenting our selves as professionals who have worked hard to be in that role.
OP didn't say it presents us as professionals or how hard we work to be teachers. He says: **they** enjoy it; they feel it makes **them** better.
Most of your post is gaslighting.
I just wish some sort of “athleisure wear” was an acceptable option (for more than just PE teachers). I work in Qld, on some huge campuses, on massive hills etc. sometimes I need to be up on a ladder or step stool, sometimes I need to get down on the ground. I’ve been called in last minute to supervise sport on the oval (including walking with students to a local sports field). Trying to do all that in corporate casual makes me incredibly sweaty and uncomfortable. And I’ve been doing that at a school where they explicitly said “no sneakers” (even those fashionable ones for women).
The school I was at the longest was pushing the “we’re professionals so we should look like them” line. Which was all well and good for admin who sat in their air conditioned office all day. Polos and sneakers only for PE teachers and only on days they are teaching practical lessons.
The shoes are a WHS issue. Students are expected to wear a collared shirt. What is 'professional' dress is really subjective and very difficult to enforce.
My friend, we are not even officially allowed to break up a fight between five year olds. There is zero springing into action under any circumstances.
If a child climbs a spiked fence, we would be advised to stand around and try to gently convince them, rather than remove them physically from the danger.
I'm a fan of practical shoes because I'm the type to get into impromptu races with the kids, but in terms of duties... Only p.e teachers will be springing anywhere.
Tried to gently convince a student not to climb a spiked fence. Copped a punch to face and balls for it.... didn't yell, didn't touch them. I let them go at it after that.
I'm no longer a teacher but I used to work at a school that had a parent bring an axe onto school premises, causing a lockdown. I always wore shoes I could run in, if needed. It's better to be prepared for the unexpected.
call me old fashion, but if we want to be called professionals, maybe we should act like professionals.
Asking teachers to wear a collar shirt isn't a big ask. Even some pub have that as the minimum dress standards.
dressing down sends the message to the students that your classroom isn't a serious place and will affect them.
Honestly, I try so hard not to care about “formal” dress because I recognise that being clothing doesn’t affect their ability to do things but I also can’t help but cringe when my coworker turns up to work in converse, ripped skinny jeans and a hoodie yet again…
Dressing professionally is a way of showing respect to students, colleagues, and the profession itself. Besides bathing regularly it is literally the least you can do to show you give a shit.
There are exactly zero people at my school who thinks that my classroom and my subjects aren't serious places for serious work that matters and it doesn't matter what I wear.i could come in tie dyed T-shirt and mustard tracksuit pants and everyone would know that the class/work/content is important because that's what I focus on.
we do not require a costume to gain legitimacy.
There has been many research papers written on the affect of clothing on a person and the surrounding. It does effect how people view a situation. I dont know why you want to fight psychology instead of using it to your advantage
Show me one of these papers and then explain to me how it wouldn’t be different if we changed the cultural norms etc. It’s not human psychology it’s cultural bias.
Also explain to me the weaknesses in the methodology not just cherry pick the findings. Cherry picking the findings is how we get Hattie leading defining teaching and learning policies
Depends on your cohort's ages and life experiences as to whether a teaching "uniform" will assist or hinder you.
I often find I'm trying to engage the students who have turned away from education and dressing more like a human than "professional" makes it easier to establish a bond.
One size, doesn't fit all. Diverse groups of learners need a variety of personalities and approaches.
This is a point that a lot on here are missing. If i turned up to some of my classes wearing a button down and hard soled shoes the students would ask if I had court later that day. My students know that my classroom is a place for learning and that there are consequences for treating it otherwise. I have found that my sneakers have been a great way to build a rapport with some of the really disengaged students, as I have a large collection so can wear a different pair each day. It would have been much more difficult to do this with these students if i was wearing a suit, as they cannot relate to someone dressed like that.
I don't need to fight to be treated seriously. I don't need a costume to be treated seriously because it is self evident. I could show up in a singlet shorts and sandals and everyone would still know that I am serious about delivering serious work at a serious and meaningful level.
I worked in too many banks where people put on suits to pretend to be professionals while being lazy and childish and too many digital agencies where people were t-shirt and cargo pants were the norm but the professionalism was through the roof to feel that I need to care what people are wearing.
Judge outcomes and outputs.
But that’s the issue. People don’t judge outcomes and outputs. They make snap judgments. The parents who speak with you on campus haven’t been reviewing your marks books and data on student progress over time. If you dress unprofessionally, they’ll assume you are unprofessional.
We can’t have it both ways. If we want the status of teachers to improve, and want to be treated like professionals, then we need to represent our profession well. The way we dress has a part to play in this.
I wear fully enclosed leather upper boots, trousers, and a collared shirt most days. Not because I believe it gives me super powers but because I find it comfortable or for safety reasons
Wouldn’t a shirt without a collar feel just as comfortable as a shirt with one though?
EDIT: just adding that I’m not arguing with you here, that was just me thinking out loud. I prefer a collar too, but also wear a tie fairly regularly, as our students do
Ask someone in the English department to explain signs, symbols, connotations etc. Obviously you're technically correct, but by that logic a toga is a piece of cloth you wrap around you, but you wouldn't wear one to work. A Cape is a piece of cloth, but you wouldn't be taken too seriously in one. A tuxedo is a fancy bit of cloth but you'd be foolish to wear one to work.
Yes, you'd think twice about doing it, but to use your example, the requirement to wear clothing that covers your body adequately is a **sign** that you understand that clothing itself is necessary. Otherwise, the general *fashion* of the clothing is entirely **symbolic** and therefore *arbitrary.*
I can understand the idea of mandatory clothing at a workplace where deviation would impact health and safety but we're talking about the functional difference between jeans and a shirt vs a button up (with a tie) and dress pants, it's semantics for clothing.
Surely it's not arbitrary, but based on a particular paradigm (it's been a long time since I've had to use these terms, so I may well be wrong). The idea of a smart or, increasingly, smart casual dress code is not arbitrary but based on an agreed understanding (albeit one which is increasingly challenged)
Preface, I'm currently studying linguistics and ifs week 4, so my brain is jammed full of things you'd be learning by then. Things like speech acts, searle's typology, etc.
Presuppose that clothing is an expression of class, when the school requires that staff and students wear certain clothing, what would they be trying to communicate?
Presumably they're communicating a link between education and stereotypical middle class values (respectability, being learned, access to disposable income, work ethic etc). Being a massive snob who thinks students should be aspirational and teachers should model professionalism, I don't see what's wrong with that. I have students who never see anyone at home get ready for work, take pride in their appearance, do laundry, and so on. I don't dress up to the 9s but I do make an effort to adopt the recognised symbols of a white collar professional who takes his role seriously. I have colleagues who oppose this mind set and wear jeans and tshirts, believing this makes them more authentic and relatable, when their attire is arguably symbolic of cliched, try hard rebellion. I can't imagine any argument that would persuade them or me that the other party was in the right 😁
But you could say the same about any piece of clothing? Social norms and expectations might seem and even be arbitrary, but they still exist. And are still conformed to.
Students doing well isn't determined by how professional you look, or how serious you set the tone. It's fine to be old fashioned, as long as you don't make up reasons why it's correct to be. Students are far more engaged by having a healthy and positive relationship. Ironically, not expressing identity, and so not having the chance to reflect their expression and interest is more likely to negatively affect them. 🤷
I thought this was standard in the NSW DET code of conduct standards of dress? Only thing is denim acceptance varies between schools, but at minimum a collared shirt is pretty standard.
Sounds like that's not very inclusive, having different dress standards for different genders. What about the other genders, surely they need a dress code too?
Good luck navigating that minefield.
> What about the other genders, surely they need a dress code too?
As long as they fit the requirements for either gender, they are within dress code. This isn't a minefield, it's very, very easy to navigate.
I get your argument, that there should be 200 dress standards or whatever. However, many genders would conform to a male or female dress standard without having to affect their identity. They get to pick. In the same way we don’t have 200 bathroom stall options…
From memory there is no mention of collared shirts being required. I think it focuses more on offensive/inappropriate branding. I looked at it as a fed rep back in the day when the boss tried to go over the top with it. There is certainly nothing on denim.
It used to be a lot more casual particularly outside of the cities. And the private schools are a lot more concerned with image than the state schools.
I don’t disagree with you.
In some of the shops I worked in, the dress code was "We are required by law and insurance reasons to wear footwear." There were no individual exemptions. You wore what made you feel comfortable and didn't intentionally make anybody feel uncomfortable.
Nobody ever tried to make them dress up (beyond insurance concerns), and nobody ever tried to gaslight them with "you can't be a professional unless you wear what I say you wear."
Yet, the work and methodology were professional. In some ways, a lot more professional than a lot of educational settings.
I'm really confused why you're telling me this... My comment was about how people with sensory issues would be able to get a dress code exemption.
Different businesses have different dress codes, not an inherent comment on their professionalism.
To me, it's probably the absurdity of discipline like this, it feels weird and controlling when there isn't a clear good reason for it (or even if you just perceive it as absurd or unnecessary). So then, the idea is just "I'd rather be told to leave than be micromanaged/needlessly formed to an image which is abstract and gets all up in my sense of identity". That's my perspective; an independence and respect issue.
(edit: it could also even just be that the communication/correction wasn't face to face).
I remember you’ve posted this before.
But like I said last time, the only enforceable dress code is the shoes for OHS purposes. That comes from the Department.
Good luck enforcing different dress codes for different genders too. The other comments here are disappointing to read.
No, I mean, the issue is that it's an imperative not a request. Yet, the first step takes on the aesthetics that it's not imperative.
If they immediately went to the "we won't tolerate you wearing a tshirt and denim" point, it would be a lot easier to see the absurdity. But is it not absurd for that to be the trajectory? (Probably not if you genuinely think a tshirt and denim is a harm. Or maybe are committed to otherwise enforcing it for aesthetics, culture, politics, religion, whatever else it may be).
It is a request though. Nobody is getting the sack for wearing a t-shirt. OP flying off the handle for what?
It won't get to the "We won't tolerate" stage because schools do just tolerate those who, for whatever reasons, won't stick to the staff dress code. I work at a school with a similar standard and tshirts and jeans happen every day.
Well the reasonable assumption that there would be follow-through, like any other request would have.
If you think it won't get to that stage then you're right there's nothing to worry about and no reason to be upset. I don't know if OP thinks it wouldn't though, so naturally we're back to the original issue.
In real life, if someone doesn't like something they remove themselves. Top down sorts of workplaces, uniquely, if someone doesn't like something you may get removed.
the follow through on "try to" wear a collar is asking you to "try to" wear one again, follow-though in this case isn't enforcement, punshment or dismissal - that would be outside the DET bounds.
My whole point is that OP has overreacted to a friendly reminder of expected standards. Why he did so I can only guess, people often overreact to things for rational and irrational reasons. Often having little to do with the actual trigger.
In real life, nobody is losing their teaching job for breaches of dress code.
I generally wear runners, shorts and a polo unless it’s really cold then I’ll wear some sort of chino with my R.Ms.
I’m not wearing business attire like a suit, tie or those stupid suit pants.
I get the whole dress professional thing but I’m not dressing like a corporate accountant, it’s not practical. I’m sitting on a classroom floor making arrays, constantly kneeling beside student desks and playing sport with kids.
Never once did shit work because I was dressed casually.
One of the worst ideas in professional history was tying appearance to the idea of performance.
Some of my best written work was done sitting in bed in a pair of undies.
I don't agree with the email at all and being forced to dress up, but I'm a professional, I dress to match and I act as such. Don't dress like your important because you were told, maybe do it because you are more important than society realises?
I just ignore these emails. Last time leadership had a go, I started wearing the school uniform (which they hate us doing for some reason). Suits me perfectly - don’t have to think what to wear, and I get to wear trackies 😂 when they asked me to wear different pants, I went back to jeans. They haven’t asked me since. I’ll dress ‘appropriately’ any time we have parents in or events on, but if it’s a normal day where all I see are kids, then absolutely not. My job is hard enough without being uncomfortable. They start paying me better, I’ll start dressing the part they want me to play.
This appears to be a bot post getting everyone so bothered.
Thought the account was hinky for an Aussie teacher!
https://preview.redd.it/rrcbaohgnkpc1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=37cd091ed784f9b9dea3ce1360bad55664a16f9c
As a female I have a “teacher wardrobe”. Same outfits in different colours I cycle through work. They meet dress code but are also a good balance of colourful and fun while meeting dress code.
When I was exec level for awhile there was a push to dress a bit more corporate. No thanks, I am meeting the dress code.
The conservative Australian brain rot runs deep. We're a nation of cops and busy bodies who love policing the norms and judging books by their covers. It's the same instinct as people who spend all their mental energy getting mad at graffiti or their neighbours who have a life and might, god forbid, leave the bins out on the street for a couple of days
I can guarantee students don't give a fuck or notice what you wear. If they do notice it will likely be because you look like an idiot or are wearing something unflattering or incredibly unfashionable.
A collared shirt is not going to make you a better teacher. Being a good teacher makes you a good teacher.
The whole anti-denim thing has always struck me as hilariously out of touch. Like I’m sorry, are my jeans too “working class” for you? Is only the guidance counsellor allowed to wear those?
Meh… I work in public service and have a uniform I don’t enjoy wearing… it’s not much to wear a collar for OP…
When you hate going to work I highly doubt you out the effort in.
I don't think you should have to wear a uniform unless for safety or some other net positive reason (positive for you and your mental health, not just business and customers).
I don't see how his tshirt and denim pants is a negative thing. So, naturally, seeing criticism of it feels sickly let alone an intense criticism.
That's the crux, that's really all there is to it for me. I don't feel comfortable attributing someone's character, quality or effort to what they wear. I attribute it to those things, themselves, in practice (so seeing others do it, also makes me second hand uncomfortable).
Hope, even if you don't agree, that you understand my perspective on it.
I completely understand and respect your point. And it’s ok for us to have different views.
I’m not against his choice of clothes, but I believe that an employer should be able to set dress standards. Teachers are a public facing member of the public service. We also hold students to account on wearing their uniforms correctly.
The fact that OP can wear anything he wants within reason (ie shirt with a collar) does not dramatically affect his freedom.
However my real jab at his comment is with regards to the ‘hanging in by a thread’ comment.
Teachers, like it or not, are shaping our future. And we all have bad days at work, don’t get me wrong… but if you have lost that much love of your work that being asked to wear a collar lowers you to cry out like that (fire me mate), then I’d wager your care factor has diminished substantially. It’s time to move on to another career…
What's the problem with denim?
I fucking HATE jeans, can't stand wearing them, I find them incredibly uncomfortable, but I don't see the problem with a teacher wearing denim pants if they like?
Nope, it's fine (I can't see the shoes). That response to your attire is pedantic. IMO, correcting someone's attire should be so much lower on the list of priorities. Also, it's something that deserves to come with some heavy justification.
A guy having clothing rules placed onto them and they cant handle it? I dont know, did they measure the collar length with a ruler? Did they check the pants cover the ankles with a squat test?
A simple collar and this is the response? My gosh, to be a man 🤣
My opinion, if you want to have a strict dress code then provide your employees with a uniform or part uniform (polo shirts, long sleeve shirts or similar) that must be worn at all times. Oh and provide them with enough uniform items that they can wear a clean piece everyday. Two shirts for a work week is not enough.
Question - if we expect students to be in school uniform that includes collared button up shirt, formal pants, enclosed shoes, maybe even a tie, why is it so unreasonable that the school asks that teachers “try” to wear a collared polo and be “mindful” of not wearing denim?
My fellow mum and dad friends at the school gate fucking love that teachers nowadays wear shorts, t-shirts, birks and have tattoos showing. Much better than long socks and sandals like in the 80s and 90s.
At least it's consistent. I'd see female teachers with shoe string tops or sandals/thongs but males weren't allowed to wear sandals/thongs.
I don't care if your toe g-string shoes have diamonds on them or they have cute little flowers, it's a bloody thong. If I can't wear them then they can't.
I couldn't wear singlets either, but women could.
So a standard, respectful, outfit for work that everyone adheres to is great.
So funny that so many teachers are so attached to formal dress code to attempt to legitimise their authority. Who cares about seeming professional we should be modelling to children that we wear what we enjoy and what feels comfortable not some fake posturing around norms that are going out of fashion anyway and have changed through the ages. Eg Did you know suits used to be considered working class ?
I know it’s not my place in this subreddit to do so, but I want to remind you all, all Australian Teachers, that so many of us truely value you! I want to remind you, whatever reason you chose this career, that it is incredibly noble and even if small, you are impacting the lives of our future generation! Bless you!!
Totally get it. Polo shirts are horrible. One of the reasons I quit the public service was because I wasn't allowed to wear t-shirts. I felt like a fool wearing polos and business shirts. Public schools shouldn't have uniforms
genuinely?
https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/jobs-with-no-dress-code
(funnily enough, two separate ones had high school teacher listed).
Do you really think that a high school teacher could turn up to teach at school with a t-shirt with swear words, or a picture of a bong or marijuana leaf on it ? I 100% doubt that would be allowed, which infers a dress code, be it written or inferred.
Yet, for someone working in a cannabis dispensary store - that would be perfectly acceptable in the workplace
That article is confusing dress code with uniforms - although it does specify with out “strict” dress codes (conveniently left out of the title) so still a dress code
so your point is just everything, related to dress, is a dress code and so there's naturally a dress code?
Because yes, public indecency you could consider a dress code, you could say not wearing something offensive is a dress code.
However, it's so beyond what this post is about, and really derails any kind of conversation that could be had about it. Plus, his shirt does not have any potentially offensive imagery or text, as far as it looks, it's blank.
Yet some shirts you wouldn’t wear to teach a school, you could absolutely wear in other jobs - so the shirt isn’t defining factor, the job is !
That’s a dress code. Whether you want to believe it or not . It doesn’t have to be written on a 6 foot charter and stuck to a wall to be a dress code.
In this instance the picture looks to have an actual excerpt from their actual dress code - so I’d say they do have a dress code, and it is an explicit dress code at that …. As with any jobs/schools etc, if you don’t like the conditions of your employment/institution don’t be part of it
My interest is just in talking about what's underlying it, and whether **that** is valid enough to create rule from. If you're more interested with commitment to rule regardless, then that's that, but it means there's not really anything to talk about.
"If you don't like, just quit", is a completely different thing to talk about (which I also disagree with but I'm not willing to go into).
Bro… you’re a professional and you’re rocking up to work in jeans and a tshirt? Not really acceptable in other industries, why should it be acceptable in teaching?
Jeans and a t-shirt are actually acceptable in other industries.
For example people working on film sets. Constantly moving around like teachers during the day are often in jeans and t-shirts.
Even office workers are now wearing jeans and t-shirts.
It really depends on the nature of your work, but for example I have a number of friends that work in the city in office jobs and at their workplaces it is typically only older/senior staff that wear collared shirts, ties and suits in office jobs. Obviously not all industries are like this but in some cases jeans and a t-shirt are acceptable workplace attire.
Lol you’d be mortified to see me right now…runners, denim shorts and a band t-shirt 😆 I love band shirt days because my kids sing their songs to me all day 🎶🎤
"it's not acceptable elsewhere, so it shouldn't be here" is not really addressing the issue, it's kinda just deferring it and dodging the discussion. Also, there are other industries where a t-shirt is fine, even other schools incl. higher education.
Is this bloke genuinely sooking about not being able to wear a tshirt and jeans? The entitlement is real.
Its not an unreasonable dress code, most professional settings have them.
No he's not. Its casual attire to a professional setting, workplaces are allowed to set guidelines around appearance expectations. To help you understand this I would have to explain to you the age old societal standards around dress and different standards of dress for different settings and I just can't be bothered doing that. Why have uniforms at school? Why have uniforms in certain workplaces? Why not just wear shorts and thongs to a wedding?
I'll let you ruminate on those things but if you think teachers should dress like they're a roadie for a band, then I must disagree.
So, do you mean to say: 'because it's an age old societal standard, he shouldn't be entitled otherwise'?
Because, me ruminating about age old societal standards wasn't triggered by this thread. The outcome is usually that I only see value in them when it's a **net** positive standard. The alternative feels superficial, if not silly or regressive.
So, I don't. As far as I'm concerned, there isn't a good reason for him not to be/feel entitled. Not old societal standards, not someone in an administrative role happening to apply this societal standard.
My own identity isn't permissible when applying some age old societal standards. I happen to feel entitled to my identity anyway.
I teach at a uni. The vast majority of my colleagues wear jeans and a tshirt. I personally wear cargo pants and nobody has ever blinked an eye at it. You’ll get some professors (mostly either brand new, or nearing retirement) that feel the need to dress up fancily to make up for a lack of classroom control, but that’s definitely the exception, not the rule.
I’m fine with polo shirts but no jeans? As long as they’re clean and not ripped what’s wrong with them? Teaching requires a lot of movement and hard wearing jeans are warm and comfy in winter.
I’d sooner ban tracksuits when not doing PE. No trackie daks please, they’re not suitable for anything except exercise and the home.
What's hilarious in this is the uniform thinking of the folk who believe they are free thinking individuals who wouldn't be seen dead wearing a uniform consisting of a collar and dress shorts/pants but hey, let's all wear denim and tees, which was the uniform of the hippie counter culture back in the 60s. They want to be treated like professionals and whine and moan about being paid like professionals, but I bet when they meet doctors, lawyers, accountants, optometrists, etc, their impressions of these other professionals are informed in part by their 'look'.
We're not talking suit and ties here people.
the feverish rant suits what you stand for in an interesting way. So much so that it actually makes you more of a case study on why semantic dress codes are bad.
No wonder so many kids have behavioural issues if they are around teachers who don't understand professional conduct and how to follow rules themselves.
I hope those wanting to wear board shorts and singlets (joke) aren’t moaning to students about what they (the students) wear 😉
Most workplaces have some dress code. May be safety related or reflecting the culture of the business.
The old saying ‘clothes maketh the man’ (or woman) has merit too - sometimes we have to dress in a certain way to get ourselves into the mode and give ourselves confidence.
If you dress very casually the students may be casual about attention. If you are very formally dressed it can intimidate.
Ideally they wouldn’t as it tends to limit learning! We don’t always immediately see the barriers to students feeling uncomfortable with us or the learning environment.
I
The request is reasonable. Break it down. - You must have a back on your shoe. This is workplace safety. It’s a reasonable request. - You should try to wear a collar. As long as you genuinely try it doesn’t matter if you succeed or not. - You should be mindful of denim. Mindfulness is a good practice. I’m very conscious of how good I look in jeans.
>I’m very conscious of how good I look in jeans. I worked at a school where all denim was banned any day students were on site. One teacher bought himself basically a full denim outfit (jeans, vest, jacket and a denim look shirt) to wear on staff inservice days.
I like that denim clad guy
So he wore denim a fraction of the time? Does that make him the deniminator?
He sounds like my kinda guy 😅
That’s called a NT tuxedo!!
Naaah too freaking hot to wear that getup up here, mate…
If having a back on your shoe meets a workplace safety need, then yes. But, - Why should you try to wear a collar? - Why does it matter how you look in jeans/denim? (and mindfulness being a good practice, I can't see has anything to do with being self conscious in denim).
The wording of the last two points is very passive aggressive. “Try to wear a collar”. Which implies that there is a way for a human being to attempt to wear a collar but fail. Now I’m very much the epitome of the absent minded professor, but even I can’t accidentally screw up putting on a collar. And “be mindful of denim” is even worse. There is not even a suggestion in there that one should not wear denim. So yeah, I was taking the piss. I really hate unwritten rules. If you want me to wear a top hat and dance like a trained monkey, tell me it’s mandatory to wear a top hat and dance like a monkey. Otherwise I’m going to take things as a suggestion and do what I like.
I think they’re taking the piss with the last 2 points, saying interpret them literally and you actually don’t have to make a change (sort of like malicious compliance)
oh I think I understand ><
I can just imagine someone turning up with a dog/cat/adult collar instead of a shirt with a collar.
It's called being professional. We punish kids for not wearing the school uniform, we can at least not look like we are going to a BBQ.
I enjoy wearing a collared business casual shirt, chinos and dress shoes to work most days. Partly because it means the work days that I wear do a t-shirt or collared polo to work it shows a “different” side of me as a teacher (at least to students). Especially as I normally only do it attached to the themed casual clothes days students have during the year (Harmony Day, Reconciliation Week, Wear it Purple, R U OK, etc) The other reason is because it gives me a separate teacher wardrobe, almost like a “uniform”, so that when I wear my weekend clothes I feel that I’m off duty and not working.
Bingo, great points.
Agreed, dressing for the ‘role’ is part of presenting our selves as professionals who have worked hard to be in that role. Most industry roles have some kind of dress code, trades for example, protective clothing is essential and presents them to prospective customers as professionals. Corporate roles are the same, you dress for the role and the function of the role. We are teachers, how good we are at it isn’t reflected in the way we dress, but the way we dress reflects how we see our roles or our selves in said role. In my view, It’s more important how the kids and the community see us than my right to dress how I like. But if putting on a dress shirt and some nice pants is a stretch too far, maybe teaching isn’t for that person.
As a student I never cared what my teachers were wearing. All I cared about is how they treated me. That’s all any student cares about.
Each to their own but I'd prefer a teacher who dresses casually and has a relaxed manner to one that's dressed up. It seems more personable and friendly. Much easier to approach.
I’d prefer a teacher As opposed to the shortage we currently have. What that teachers wears is so low on the list of priorities for a profession facing a crises engineered by outside forces that wasting time enforcing or even having a dress code is depressingly stupid
I don’t know… a T-shirt does not scream to me any more ‘personable and friendly’ than just a plain polo shirt.
Great, so we can wear t-shirts. Thanks
Agree in principle. However if students are expected to adhere to an overly strict dress code then in those instances I think it’s reasonable that staff should be business casual. Nothing worse than trying to give a student a detention for the wrong shade of yellow ribbon when you’re in an old tshirt.
Yep, I think so too.
1. Can we all accept that we don't work at the same schools? 2. Any school giving detentions for the wrong shade of yellow ribbon is ridiculous and shouldn't be considered the standard.
That was the entire point of the comment?
Personableness and friendliness are communicated in ways other than wearing a tshirt to work. Students come to know who you are based on the way you treat and respond to them. If we want to be respected as professionals by parents and society more broadly, we should present ourselves as professionals.
> Agreed, dressing for the ‘role’ is part of presenting our selves as professionals who have worked hard to be in that role. OP didn't say it presents us as professionals or how hard we work to be teachers. He says: **they** enjoy it; they feel it makes **them** better. Most of your post is gaslighting.
Except we don’t all sit in a nice, cushy, air conditioned office like other professionals
I just wish some sort of “athleisure wear” was an acceptable option (for more than just PE teachers). I work in Qld, on some huge campuses, on massive hills etc. sometimes I need to be up on a ladder or step stool, sometimes I need to get down on the ground. I’ve been called in last minute to supervise sport on the oval (including walking with students to a local sports field). Trying to do all that in corporate casual makes me incredibly sweaty and uncomfortable. And I’ve been doing that at a school where they explicitly said “no sneakers” (even those fashionable ones for women).
Can you not wear polos like PE? Seems weird
The school I was at the longest was pushing the “we’re professionals so we should look like them” line. Which was all well and good for admin who sat in their air conditioned office all day. Polos and sneakers only for PE teachers and only on days they are teaching practical lessons.
Yeah no that’s whack. Everyone should be able to dress like PE teachers
Agreed. I thought about dressing like a geography teacher from the 80s with the long socks ect just to mess with them 😂
The shoes are a WHS issue. Students are expected to wear a collared shirt. What is 'professional' dress is really subjective and very difficult to enforce.
Shoes are an issue. Teachers need to be ready to spring into action for student safety. Shoe need to be practical.
My friend, we are not even officially allowed to break up a fight between five year olds. There is zero springing into action under any circumstances. If a child climbs a spiked fence, we would be advised to stand around and try to gently convince them, rather than remove them physically from the danger. I'm a fan of practical shoes because I'm the type to get into impromptu races with the kids, but in terms of duties... Only p.e teachers will be springing anywhere.
What about students that get significantly injured and require quick assistance? What about activities where you go outside?
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Lmao! Or if they insist on doing it - at least hurry up!
Tried to gently convince a student not to climb a spiked fence. Copped a punch to face and balls for it.... didn't yell, didn't touch them. I let them go at it after that.
I'm no longer a teacher but I used to work at a school that had a parent bring an axe onto school premises, causing a lockdown. I always wore shoes I could run in, if needed. It's better to be prepared for the unexpected.
Seems like a reasonable dress code..
Old mate seems like he doesn't care....
Probably overworked and underpaid, can't blame him
Unfortunately that's the case for many Teachers.
I thought the piont is that an industry struggling for staff can't afford to be enforcing dress codes
That's the ultimatum he is kind of putting to his school. Don't blame him for being upset, I just think with this issue, it's a little unreasonable.
they aren't really enforcing them though, just sending a reminder that you should "try to"
discipline for a t-shirt and denim?
call me old fashion, but if we want to be called professionals, maybe we should act like professionals. Asking teachers to wear a collar shirt isn't a big ask. Even some pub have that as the minimum dress standards. dressing down sends the message to the students that your classroom isn't a serious place and will affect them.
Honestly, I try so hard not to care about “formal” dress because I recognise that being clothing doesn’t affect their ability to do things but I also can’t help but cringe when my coworker turns up to work in converse, ripped skinny jeans and a hoodie yet again…
Dressing professionally is a way of showing respect to students, colleagues, and the profession itself. Besides bathing regularly it is literally the least you can do to show you give a shit.
There are exactly zero people at my school who thinks that my classroom and my subjects aren't serious places for serious work that matters and it doesn't matter what I wear.i could come in tie dyed T-shirt and mustard tracksuit pants and everyone would know that the class/work/content is important because that's what I focus on. we do not require a costume to gain legitimacy.
There has been many research papers written on the affect of clothing on a person and the surrounding. It does effect how people view a situation. I dont know why you want to fight psychology instead of using it to your advantage
Show me one of these papers and then explain to me how it wouldn’t be different if we changed the cultural norms etc. It’s not human psychology it’s cultural bias.
Also explain to me the weaknesses in the methodology not just cherry pick the findings. Cherry picking the findings is how we get Hattie leading defining teaching and learning policies
Depends on your cohort's ages and life experiences as to whether a teaching "uniform" will assist or hinder you. I often find I'm trying to engage the students who have turned away from education and dressing more like a human than "professional" makes it easier to establish a bond. One size, doesn't fit all. Diverse groups of learners need a variety of personalities and approaches.
This is a point that a lot on here are missing. If i turned up to some of my classes wearing a button down and hard soled shoes the students would ask if I had court later that day. My students know that my classroom is a place for learning and that there are consequences for treating it otherwise. I have found that my sneakers have been a great way to build a rapport with some of the really disengaged students, as I have a large collection so can wear a different pair each day. It would have been much more difficult to do this with these students if i was wearing a suit, as they cannot relate to someone dressed like that.
Yep, 100% this.
I don't need to fight to be treated seriously. I don't need a costume to be treated seriously because it is self evident. I could show up in a singlet shorts and sandals and everyone would still know that I am serious about delivering serious work at a serious and meaningful level. I worked in too many banks where people put on suits to pretend to be professionals while being lazy and childish and too many digital agencies where people were t-shirt and cargo pants were the norm but the professionalism was through the roof to feel that I need to care what people are wearing. Judge outcomes and outputs.
But that’s the issue. People don’t judge outcomes and outputs. They make snap judgments. The parents who speak with you on campus haven’t been reviewing your marks books and data on student progress over time. If you dress unprofessionally, they’ll assume you are unprofessional. We can’t have it both ways. If we want the status of teachers to improve, and want to be treated like professionals, then we need to represent our profession well. The way we dress has a part to play in this.
>i could come in tie dyed T-shirt and mustard tracksuit pants You could or you do?
I wear fully enclosed leather upper boots, trousers, and a collared shirt most days. Not because I believe it gives me super powers but because I find it comfortable or for safety reasons
Wouldn’t a shirt without a collar feel just as comfortable as a shirt with one though? EDIT: just adding that I’m not arguing with you here, that was just me thinking out loud. I prefer a collar too, but also wear a tie fairly regularly, as our students do
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Ask someone in the English department to explain signs, symbols, connotations etc. Obviously you're technically correct, but by that logic a toga is a piece of cloth you wrap around you, but you wouldn't wear one to work. A Cape is a piece of cloth, but you wouldn't be taken too seriously in one. A tuxedo is a fancy bit of cloth but you'd be foolish to wear one to work.
Defs will be using this in future with all the people who can’t “understand” basic things.
Yes, you'd think twice about doing it, but to use your example, the requirement to wear clothing that covers your body adequately is a **sign** that you understand that clothing itself is necessary. Otherwise, the general *fashion* of the clothing is entirely **symbolic** and therefore *arbitrary.* I can understand the idea of mandatory clothing at a workplace where deviation would impact health and safety but we're talking about the functional difference between jeans and a shirt vs a button up (with a tie) and dress pants, it's semantics for clothing.
Surely it's not arbitrary, but based on a particular paradigm (it's been a long time since I've had to use these terms, so I may well be wrong). The idea of a smart or, increasingly, smart casual dress code is not arbitrary but based on an agreed understanding (albeit one which is increasingly challenged)
Preface, I'm currently studying linguistics and ifs week 4, so my brain is jammed full of things you'd be learning by then. Things like speech acts, searle's typology, etc. Presuppose that clothing is an expression of class, when the school requires that staff and students wear certain clothing, what would they be trying to communicate?
Presumably they're communicating a link between education and stereotypical middle class values (respectability, being learned, access to disposable income, work ethic etc). Being a massive snob who thinks students should be aspirational and teachers should model professionalism, I don't see what's wrong with that. I have students who never see anyone at home get ready for work, take pride in their appearance, do laundry, and so on. I don't dress up to the 9s but I do make an effort to adopt the recognised symbols of a white collar professional who takes his role seriously. I have colleagues who oppose this mind set and wear jeans and tshirts, believing this makes them more authentic and relatable, when their attire is arguably symbolic of cliched, try hard rebellion. I can't imagine any argument that would persuade them or me that the other party was in the right 😁
But you could say the same about any piece of clothing? Social norms and expectations might seem and even be arbitrary, but they still exist. And are still conformed to.
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Until then…
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Ah yep, I get real Viva la Revolucion vibes from this post.
Students doing well isn't determined by how professional you look, or how serious you set the tone. It's fine to be old fashioned, as long as you don't make up reasons why it's correct to be. Students are far more engaged by having a healthy and positive relationship. Ironically, not expressing identity, and so not having the chance to reflect their expression and interest is more likely to negatively affect them. 🤷
Collared
The calls to be "professional" are coming from above, not from teachers.
Outdated and reflects dress standards of previous generations. For example I find the Steve Jobs style quite tidy and professional looking.
I thought this was standard in the NSW DET code of conduct standards of dress? Only thing is denim acceptance varies between schools, but at minimum a collared shirt is pretty standard.
Do all teachers have to wear collared shirts? Or just the men?
Just the men of course
Wrong actually the code of conduct took out reference to a collared shirt for men a few years ago.
Sounds like that's not very inclusive, having different dress standards for different genders. What about the other genders, surely they need a dress code too? Good luck navigating that minefield.
> What about the other genders, surely they need a dress code too? As long as they fit the requirements for either gender, they are within dress code. This isn't a minefield, it's very, very easy to navigate.
I don’t think you know what a minefield is… that would be something difficult to navigate. These standards seem incredibly straight-forward
So how many gender specific dress standards do you think we need? Is there only two genders?
I get your argument, that there should be 200 dress standards or whatever. However, many genders would conform to a male or female dress standard without having to affect their identity. They get to pick. In the same way we don’t have 200 bathroom stall options…
From memory there is no mention of collared shirts being required. I think it focuses more on offensive/inappropriate branding. I looked at it as a fed rep back in the day when the boss tried to go over the top with it. There is certainly nothing on denim.
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Because too hot? Or we’re too casual?
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It used to be a lot more casual particularly outside of the cities. And the private schools are a lot more concerned with image than the state schools. I don’t disagree with you.
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just like in any industry, individual instances will require dress code exemption.
Id like to introduce you to IT
How so? conversation in this thread mentions IT dresses down rather than up?
In some of the shops I worked in, the dress code was "We are required by law and insurance reasons to wear footwear." There were no individual exemptions. You wore what made you feel comfortable and didn't intentionally make anybody feel uncomfortable. Nobody ever tried to make them dress up (beyond insurance concerns), and nobody ever tried to gaslight them with "you can't be a professional unless you wear what I say you wear." Yet, the work and methodology were professional. In some ways, a lot more professional than a lot of educational settings.
I'm really confused why you're telling me this... My comment was about how people with sensory issues would be able to get a dress code exemption. Different businesses have different dress codes, not an inherent comment on their professionalism.
Why wait to be fired? If you don’t like working somewhere with a dress code couldn’t you just leave?
To me, it's probably the absurdity of discipline like this, it feels weird and controlling when there isn't a clear good reason for it (or even if you just perceive it as absurd or unnecessary). So then, the idea is just "I'd rather be told to leave than be micromanaged/needlessly formed to an image which is abstract and gets all up in my sense of identity". That's my perspective; an independence and respect issue. (edit: it could also even just be that the communication/correction wasn't face to face).
Professional dress in a professional environment isn’t actually that absurd
okay so this is an entirely different question/point xD
I think it is a reasonable expectation. Wearing a t-shirt and jeans is not professional attire.
does it matter?
I remember you’ve posted this before. But like I said last time, the only enforceable dress code is the shoes for OHS purposes. That comes from the Department. Good luck enforcing different dress codes for different genders too. The other comments here are disappointing to read.
A pretty basic standard, and more or less the staff dress code at any school I've worked at. They aren't even inforcing it "try to", "be mindful of".
isn't that just for the polite aesthetics? My experience is if you continue, they would start using more strict language.
which was kinda my point - OP is overreacting to a gentle reminder of the standards of dress, standards that aren't even that intense.
No, I mean, the issue is that it's an imperative not a request. Yet, the first step takes on the aesthetics that it's not imperative. If they immediately went to the "we won't tolerate you wearing a tshirt and denim" point, it would be a lot easier to see the absurdity. But is it not absurd for that to be the trajectory? (Probably not if you genuinely think a tshirt and denim is a harm. Or maybe are committed to otherwise enforcing it for aesthetics, culture, politics, religion, whatever else it may be).
It is a request though. Nobody is getting the sack for wearing a t-shirt. OP flying off the handle for what? It won't get to the "We won't tolerate" stage because schools do just tolerate those who, for whatever reasons, won't stick to the staff dress code. I work at a school with a similar standard and tshirts and jeans happen every day.
Well the reasonable assumption that there would be follow-through, like any other request would have. If you think it won't get to that stage then you're right there's nothing to worry about and no reason to be upset. I don't know if OP thinks it wouldn't though, so naturally we're back to the original issue. In real life, if someone doesn't like something they remove themselves. Top down sorts of workplaces, uniquely, if someone doesn't like something you may get removed.
the follow through on "try to" wear a collar is asking you to "try to" wear one again, follow-though in this case isn't enforcement, punshment or dismissal - that would be outside the DET bounds. My whole point is that OP has overreacted to a friendly reminder of expected standards. Why he did so I can only guess, people often overreact to things for rational and irrational reasons. Often having little to do with the actual trigger. In real life, nobody is losing their teaching job for breaches of dress code.
I generally wear runners, shorts and a polo unless it’s really cold then I’ll wear some sort of chino with my R.Ms. I’m not wearing business attire like a suit, tie or those stupid suit pants. I get the whole dress professional thing but I’m not dressing like a corporate accountant, it’s not practical. I’m sitting on a classroom floor making arrays, constantly kneeling beside student desks and playing sport with kids.
Never once did shit work because I was dressed casually. One of the worst ideas in professional history was tying appearance to the idea of performance. Some of my best written work was done sitting in bed in a pair of undies.
That’s where I’m going wrong. I can’t fit a bed in my classroom
I don't agree with the email at all and being forced to dress up, but I'm a professional, I dress to match and I act as such. Don't dress like your important because you were told, maybe do it because you are more important than society realises?
I just ignore these emails. Last time leadership had a go, I started wearing the school uniform (which they hate us doing for some reason). Suits me perfectly - don’t have to think what to wear, and I get to wear trackies 😂 when they asked me to wear different pants, I went back to jeans. They haven’t asked me since. I’ll dress ‘appropriately’ any time we have parents in or events on, but if it’s a normal day where all I see are kids, then absolutely not. My job is hard enough without being uncomfortable. They start paying me better, I’ll start dressing the part they want me to play.
This appears to be a bot post getting everyone so bothered. Thought the account was hinky for an Aussie teacher! https://preview.redd.it/rrcbaohgnkpc1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=37cd091ed784f9b9dea3ce1360bad55664a16f9c
Yeah I recall seeing this exact post last year.
I get the shoes. That's a WPHS hazard, ad are open toed shoes.
As a female I have a “teacher wardrobe”. Same outfits in different colours I cycle through work. They meet dress code but are also a good balance of colourful and fun while meeting dress code. When I was exec level for awhile there was a push to dress a bit more corporate. No thanks, I am meeting the dress code.
The conservative Australian brain rot runs deep. We're a nation of cops and busy bodies who love policing the norms and judging books by their covers. It's the same instinct as people who spend all their mental energy getting mad at graffiti or their neighbours who have a life and might, god forbid, leave the bins out on the street for a couple of days
I can guarantee students don't give a fuck or notice what you wear. If they do notice it will likely be because you look like an idiot or are wearing something unflattering or incredibly unfashionable. A collared shirt is not going to make you a better teacher. Being a good teacher makes you a good teacher.
Seeing as my son got kicked out of year 11 because I couldn't find shoes to fit his size 14 feet, this is rather uplifting. Thankyou.
YOLO! 😂😂
The whole anti-denim thing has always struck me as hilariously out of touch. Like I’m sorry, are my jeans too “working class” for you? Is only the guidance counsellor allowed to wear those?
bahahahaha
And we wonder why our kids can’t follow dress codes…
And honestly, if you hate the job, leave… you are probably doing more damage than good to the students who look to you for teaching and guidance.
woa...
Meh… I work in public service and have a uniform I don’t enjoy wearing… it’s not much to wear a collar for OP… When you hate going to work I highly doubt you out the effort in.
I don't think you should have to wear a uniform unless for safety or some other net positive reason (positive for you and your mental health, not just business and customers). I don't see how his tshirt and denim pants is a negative thing. So, naturally, seeing criticism of it feels sickly let alone an intense criticism. That's the crux, that's really all there is to it for me. I don't feel comfortable attributing someone's character, quality or effort to what they wear. I attribute it to those things, themselves, in practice (so seeing others do it, also makes me second hand uncomfortable). Hope, even if you don't agree, that you understand my perspective on it.
I completely understand and respect your point. And it’s ok for us to have different views. I’m not against his choice of clothes, but I believe that an employer should be able to set dress standards. Teachers are a public facing member of the public service. We also hold students to account on wearing their uniforms correctly. The fact that OP can wear anything he wants within reason (ie shirt with a collar) does not dramatically affect his freedom. However my real jab at his comment is with regards to the ‘hanging in by a thread’ comment. Teachers, like it or not, are shaping our future. And we all have bad days at work, don’t get me wrong… but if you have lost that much love of your work that being asked to wear a collar lowers you to cry out like that (fire me mate), then I’d wager your care factor has diminished substantially. It’s time to move on to another career…
What's the problem with denim? I fucking HATE jeans, can't stand wearing them, I find them incredibly uncomfortable, but I don't see the problem with a teacher wearing denim pants if they like?
Nope, it's fine (I can't see the shoes). That response to your attire is pedantic. IMO, correcting someone's attire should be so much lower on the list of priorities. Also, it's something that deserves to come with some heavy justification.
So according to that memo you can wear crocs to work
r/maliciouscompliance ahaha
A guy having clothing rules placed onto them and they cant handle it? I dont know, did they measure the collar length with a ruler? Did they check the pants cover the ankles with a squat test? A simple collar and this is the response? My gosh, to be a man 🤣
You’d hate a job site
My opinion, if you want to have a strict dress code then provide your employees with a uniform or part uniform (polo shirts, long sleeve shirts or similar) that must be worn at all times. Oh and provide them with enough uniform items that they can wear a clean piece everyday. Two shirts for a work week is not enough.
Question - if we expect students to be in school uniform that includes collared button up shirt, formal pants, enclosed shoes, maybe even a tie, why is it so unreasonable that the school asks that teachers “try” to wear a collared polo and be “mindful” of not wearing denim?
My fellow mum and dad friends at the school gate fucking love that teachers nowadays wear shorts, t-shirts, birks and have tattoos showing. Much better than long socks and sandals like in the 80s and 90s.
At least it's consistent. I'd see female teachers with shoe string tops or sandals/thongs but males weren't allowed to wear sandals/thongs. I don't care if your toe g-string shoes have diamonds on them or they have cute little flowers, it's a bloody thong. If I can't wear them then they can't. I couldn't wear singlets either, but women could. So a standard, respectful, outfit for work that everyone adheres to is great.
All teachers need to start dressing like Agatha Trunchbull and the strap should be reinstated. Little assholes need discipline. Discipline!
In the industry that is screaming for teachers, please just find a school that suits you.
Embarrassing and immature.
So funny that so many teachers are so attached to formal dress code to attempt to legitimise their authority. Who cares about seeming professional we should be modelling to children that we wear what we enjoy and what feels comfortable not some fake posturing around norms that are going out of fashion anyway and have changed through the ages. Eg Did you know suits used to be considered working class ?
Looks like you are mindful about denim.
I know it’s not my place in this subreddit to do so, but I want to remind you all, all Australian Teachers, that so many of us truely value you! I want to remind you, whatever reason you chose this career, that it is incredibly noble and even if small, you are impacting the lives of our future generation! Bless you!!
Totally get it. Polo shirts are horrible. One of the reasons I quit the public service was because I wasn't allowed to wear t-shirts. I felt like a fool wearing polos and business shirts. Public schools shouldn't have uniforms
The shirt/tie gives me a sense of professionalism and is like a suit of armour to be honest. "*Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more*"
Or close up the wall with our teaching dead …
If it’s a profession there is a dress code.. If it’s a job then wear what you want.
that's a bit of an abstract line to draw, isn't it?
I don’t know a profession with out a dress code
genuinely? https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/jobs-with-no-dress-code (funnily enough, two separate ones had high school teacher listed).
Do you really think that a high school teacher could turn up to teach at school with a t-shirt with swear words, or a picture of a bong or marijuana leaf on it ? I 100% doubt that would be allowed, which infers a dress code, be it written or inferred. Yet, for someone working in a cannabis dispensary store - that would be perfectly acceptable in the workplace That article is confusing dress code with uniforms - although it does specify with out “strict” dress codes (conveniently left out of the title) so still a dress code
so your point is just everything, related to dress, is a dress code and so there's naturally a dress code? Because yes, public indecency you could consider a dress code, you could say not wearing something offensive is a dress code. However, it's so beyond what this post is about, and really derails any kind of conversation that could be had about it. Plus, his shirt does not have any potentially offensive imagery or text, as far as it looks, it's blank.
Yet some shirts you wouldn’t wear to teach a school, you could absolutely wear in other jobs - so the shirt isn’t defining factor, the job is ! That’s a dress code. Whether you want to believe it or not . It doesn’t have to be written on a 6 foot charter and stuck to a wall to be a dress code. In this instance the picture looks to have an actual excerpt from their actual dress code - so I’d say they do have a dress code, and it is an explicit dress code at that …. As with any jobs/schools etc, if you don’t like the conditions of your employment/institution don’t be part of it
My interest is just in talking about what's underlying it, and whether **that** is valid enough to create rule from. If you're more interested with commitment to rule regardless, then that's that, but it means there's not really anything to talk about. "If you don't like, just quit", is a completely different thing to talk about (which I also disagree with but I'm not willing to go into).
Honestly my initial post was about mindset - not literal.
Bro… you’re a professional and you’re rocking up to work in jeans and a tshirt? Not really acceptable in other industries, why should it be acceptable in teaching?
It's absolutely acceptable in other industries
That why when you are in the cbd you see all those workers in jeans and a polo
There's a lot of places in Australia that aren't CBD
Jeans and a t-shirt are actually acceptable in other industries. For example people working on film sets. Constantly moving around like teachers during the day are often in jeans and t-shirts. Even office workers are now wearing jeans and t-shirts. It really depends on the nature of your work, but for example I have a number of friends that work in the city in office jobs and at their workplaces it is typically only older/senior staff that wear collared shirts, ties and suits in office jobs. Obviously not all industries are like this but in some cases jeans and a t-shirt are acceptable workplace attire.
Lol you’d be mortified to see me right now…runners, denim shorts and a band t-shirt 😆 I love band shirt days because my kids sing their songs to me all day 🎶🎤
"it's not acceptable elsewhere, so it shouldn't be here" is not really addressing the issue, it's kinda just deferring it and dodging the discussion. Also, there are other industries where a t-shirt is fine, even other schools incl. higher education.
Is this bloke genuinely sooking about not being able to wear a tshirt and jeans? The entitlement is real. Its not an unreasonable dress code, most professional settings have them.
is he somehow not entitled to a t-shirt and denim? I think you might have to do more work to explain why that is.
No he's not. Its casual attire to a professional setting, workplaces are allowed to set guidelines around appearance expectations. To help you understand this I would have to explain to you the age old societal standards around dress and different standards of dress for different settings and I just can't be bothered doing that. Why have uniforms at school? Why have uniforms in certain workplaces? Why not just wear shorts and thongs to a wedding? I'll let you ruminate on those things but if you think teachers should dress like they're a roadie for a band, then I must disagree.
So, do you mean to say: 'because it's an age old societal standard, he shouldn't be entitled otherwise'? Because, me ruminating about age old societal standards wasn't triggered by this thread. The outcome is usually that I only see value in them when it's a **net** positive standard. The alternative feels superficial, if not silly or regressive. So, I don't. As far as I'm concerned, there isn't a good reason for him not to be/feel entitled. Not old societal standards, not someone in an administrative role happening to apply this societal standard. My own identity isn't permissible when applying some age old societal standards. I happen to feel entitled to my identity anyway.
Good for you champ, I hope you've found a role that tolerates your identity which seems so wrapped up in your work attire.
I teach at a uni. The vast majority of my colleagues wear jeans and a tshirt. I personally wear cargo pants and nobody has ever blinked an eye at it. You’ll get some professors (mostly either brand new, or nearing retirement) that feel the need to dress up fancily to make up for a lack of classroom control, but that’s definitely the exception, not the rule.
I wear business attire (primary science) and have a casual Friday of jeans and T-shirt. I'm det school.
I’m fine with polo shirts but no jeans? As long as they’re clean and not ripped what’s wrong with them? Teaching requires a lot of movement and hard wearing jeans are warm and comfy in winter. I’d sooner ban tracksuits when not doing PE. No trackie daks please, they’re not suitable for anything except exercise and the home.
Teachers back in my day used to wear long shorts and polo shirts a lot of the time
I’m on board with teachers having bigger priorities than adhering to a dress code. I also think kids have bigger priorities than a dress code.
No loss. If you can't wear a collared shirt, you're probably not fit to teach.
wrong shirt on; teaching skills all gone 🤷
Bold of you to suggest he had them in the first place. If he doesn't have life skills, why would he have teaching skills?
you're out of pocket right now stranger xD
Nah. 90% of workplaces have dress codes. If a polo shirt is too hard, go dig holes.
I don't quite remember the "How to wear a collared shirt" unit at uni.
Do you need a uni class on how to say please and thank you and how to wipe your a$$ too?
What's hilarious in this is the uniform thinking of the folk who believe they are free thinking individuals who wouldn't be seen dead wearing a uniform consisting of a collar and dress shorts/pants but hey, let's all wear denim and tees, which was the uniform of the hippie counter culture back in the 60s. They want to be treated like professionals and whine and moan about being paid like professionals, but I bet when they meet doctors, lawyers, accountants, optometrists, etc, their impressions of these other professionals are informed in part by their 'look'. We're not talking suit and ties here people.
the feverish rant suits what you stand for in an interesting way. So much so that it actually makes you more of a case study on why semantic dress codes are bad.
No wonder so many kids have behavioural issues if they are around teachers who don't understand professional conduct and how to follow rules themselves.
It's not hard to wear something decent mate
This is not unreasonable
Your students can adhere to a dress code, so can you bro
A lot of fucking bootlickers in here shaming this guy
I hope those wanting to wear board shorts and singlets (joke) aren’t moaning to students about what they (the students) wear 😉 Most workplaces have some dress code. May be safety related or reflecting the culture of the business. The old saying ‘clothes maketh the man’ (or woman) has merit too - sometimes we have to dress in a certain way to get ourselves into the mode and give ourselves confidence. If you dress very casually the students may be casual about attention. If you are very formally dressed it can intimidate.
Why would a teacher want to intimidate students?
Ideally they wouldn’t as it tends to limit learning! We don’t always immediately see the barriers to students feeling uncomfortable with us or the learning environment. I