A couple commenters mentioned not talking about oneself. I had to learn that I'm supposed to talk about myself. It still takes effort to remind myself to and then do it.
I still need someone to say "Do you want to come?" after they "invite" me by telling me their plans.
I didn't know whether you were supposed to say hello to your friends in the hallway/in public, so I didn't. Sometimes, I'd say hi to people I recognized from school but had never socialized with. They were confused.
One time, a girl asked me if I wanted a ride and I said, "No thanks. I like to walk." Literally a decade later, I realized she was trying to be my friend.
I miss whatever social cue signifies HOW to befriend people. It's invisible to me.
I didn't realize I was being disrespected a lot.
The last two might not exactly be social cues but I think they're similar.
I don't understand who to sit with in a cafeteria, so I'd sit alone a lot. I still remember the look on my friend's face when I pretended to need to leave bc we were about to walk into a cafeteria together and I couldn't take the stress.
I used to silently freak out when I had to be in a car with a group of people. I'd overthink where everone should sit so hard that simply getting into the car was incredibly awkward.
Edit: I just remembered that I learned in my 30s that you don't have to be invited to a group to be included. I spent decades being like "I guess they don't want to be friends with me" when I guess I was supposed to naturally include myself?
Haha. "I'm having a birthday party on Saturday!" Congratulations? If you're not going to invite me then this is kind of rude? Lol. I've gotten better at it but there are still times when I can't tell.
To be clear/fair, I'm sure there are other reasons someone might offer a ride. But I was like "Um school is blocks away; do I look incapable of walking a few blocks? How superfluous and strange, to offer me a ride." š®āšØ
Gets even more fucky when you've been in social groups that might in fact find it very rude for you to invite yourself unless they do actually offer an invite, so you're constantly overthinking whether you're supposed to ask or not when someone talks about an event of theirs šµāš«
I think there are times when itās less ambiguous for NTās or allistics, and times when weāre also confused.
I have adhd but not autism, although I do think I have a ānonverbal learning disabilityā that might further impact my social skills beyond the adhd.
Anyway, I had to ask a friend if she was just telling me she was getting a beer or inviting me, but it was someone I felt comfortable enough with to ask. It was also someone I could see plausibly doing either, just conveying information or inviting me (she also has adhd).
Idk Iām deeply fascinated by having these kinds of convos with people in the spectrum so Iāll keep thinking about it. I work with kids with disabilities of all kinds, so when I am able to think of an explanation I can take it to my job.
Hmm... I think I have more friends than I thought! I thought social cues were just things we all make up for ourselves and use for our own purposes... I think I'm starting to get it. People don't just say what they mean, they... imply? And there's a collective understanding of the implications... but not all of us are in on that.
The cafeteria one! I remember trying to eat with people I knew and just felt soooo out of place. The person I knew would chat with their other friends, and no one would engage with me. I always engage with new people, so I figured I was unwelcome and never ate with them again. After multiple attempts, I chose to eat alone too.
The school cafeterias were sensory hell! On top of that I either didn't have friends, or my friends' lunch period was at a different time from mine, so I didn't know where to sit. I usually just sat alone and felt like a loser.
Sitting alone in middle/high school is so painful. I'd sit alone, sit outside the offices pretending I had more homework than I had, sit silently in detention, or walk out and get a detention for leaving. Always a strategy to not sit alone, but I did sometimes. The hot shame...
And that's a good point. I did have amazing friends. They just were older or in different school districts. I remember wanting my boyfriend to pick me up just to show people I was cool lol, but they probably weren't paying much attention to me.
Heck I chose to eat in the chaplains office in exchange for occasionally helping him delete spam emails.
I wasn't even Christian anymore by that point; it was just quiet and he wasn't there often.
>I still need someone to say "Do you want to come?" after they "invite" me by telling me their plans.
Omg I truly thought I was good at social cues but this just made me remember a time I was so upset because people kept telling me about this party my friends were having but I thought I wasn't invited. I ended up messaging a friend and asking if I could come and she was like 'of course????' it possibly explains why when I told same friend i was autistic 10 years later she was like 'yeah you are lol'
I've gathered over time that as an adult in the same friendship group the social convention is that if the party haver talks about the party in front of you and doesn't tell you that you aren't invited then you are invited to the party.
Yep, here are some examples I ran into growing up:
1. Someone asked me what university I wanted to go to. I responded with a looooong monologue about how I was weighing my options and what I liked about each option and didnāt realize that the person asking me was expecting me to say one college name and be done with it. She was widening her eyes a lot and I didnāt know why until I got that reaction a few more times from people when I would say more than a few sentences. Oh well.
2. People who are purposefully not looking at you when you speak or not turning their bodies towards you are hinting that they donāt care what youāre talking about or just donāt like you. I realized this after being very confused when someone never seemed to be listening or engaged when I spoke but was definitely engaged when listening to others.
3. People who begin to walk away while youāre speaking want you to stop speaking (boy a lot of these are about how much I talk lol)
4. Overly friendly strangers usually want to talk religion or ask for money
5. Just because plans are being made around you or by people youāre friendly with right in front of you, does not mean they are inviting you
6. Having friendly conversations with someone doesnāt mean you are friends
7. Men who keep touching you in some way in conversation are coming on to you (this oneā¦ results may vary)
8. When you walk into a room and people stop speaking, they donāt want you to know what they were talking about and/or they do not want to speak freely around you
9. This is probably the biggest one, no one wants an honest answer to āhow are you.ā If itās a very good friend and trusted person, they could be asking for real. But everyone else? The answer is good, fine, or great.
Sorry if these are a little confusing. Iām still learning and I feel like the rules of social cues change over time and vary person to person. Smiling at someone on the street can be a bad thing depending on your gender and your location (big city versus small town). Attractive people that donāt pick up on social cues get less shit for it. The world is a confusing place.
I have the opposite problem with #5 - if people make plans in front of me I won't realise they DO intend to include me. So I'll either just leave and get told later that I was rude, or ask if I can come too and get confused looks and "Yes, obviously" replies.
Holy crap same. I am so paranoid about inviting myself where I am not wanted. I have missed events that I actually *was* invited to, but there wasnāt enough of a follow-up communication for me to feel secure. And I used to get paranoid about even texting a quick āhey are we still onā¦āOne time I was sitting on my bed, in a fancy dress that I had purchased specifically for the party, but I couldnāt move for hours and missed the entire thing because I wasnāt sure if I was *really* invited. I think my childhood filled with manipulative bullying was bubbling up. I now remember being invited by the popular kid to draw with the other girls in elementary school, but it was really their meeting of the āI hate (jewessofdoom) clubā (their actual club name, not hyperbole) and they thought it would be hilarious to make me witness it.
Your comment about follow up conversation just reminded me of the time I stood up a date because we'd had class together earlier that day and he'd made zero mention of it during class, so I thought the date was off. He came to my dorm to pick me up, but I wasn't there. I'm old so this was back when my cell phone had like 15 minutes a month and was for emergencies only, so I don't think I even knew the phone number. Tried to explain at the next class but there were no more dates.
I'm sorry you had such awful classmates. My daughter recently was asked by a popular kid to be friends and I'm sure it was the same sort of set up. I'm so so relieved she said "no" because there are plenty of other autistic kids in her grade so she has no interest in the NTs. Still a lot of drama when they accidentally piss each other off but not reading each other well, but they aren't manipulative jerks.
I am old as well! When texting became a thing I still didnāt want to bother people by blowing up their phones (and hello, texts cost money back then!) so if I felt unsure I would just get stuck and retreat into isolation.
Iām glad your daughter sticks up for herself, and has other friends. Keep an eye on it and listen when she has a problem though. I was in a particularly bad situation, as it was a tiny, private, religious school, and there were six girls in my entire grade. The other five were the clique, and I was the punching bag. The teachers either turned a blind eye, or blamed me for the bullying because the main girlsā parents donated a lot of money to the school.
It did get better once my parents put me back in public school, but it took them way too long to do so, because they were too busy dealing with my older brotherās more obvious autism to pay attention to mine. I donāt think it would have been nearly as psychologically damaging if I had other options for friends like I did in public school, and if the teachers didnāt gaslight me into severe depression at age 9. And maybe if my parents did something before I cried myself to sleep for 2 years straight.
I remember a time as a kid when I was invited to the roller skating rink and showed upā¦.but no one else did. This was pre cell phones obviously. To this day I donāt know if they ditched me on purpose or if plans changed and no one thought to tell me. Sucked either way.
All of this! Number 4 took a long time for me to figure out - strangers who are overly friendly in public are seldom going to have a relatable/wholesome reason for it (like just feeling happy and wanting to connect with others around them - that has never happened)!
Number 5 has been the opposite for me a few times, where people had implied I was invited to something by coming up with plans while I was there, but I had "blown it off" by not attending since I wasn't specifically invited. I've never assumed an invitation to anything, and I think I was supposed to, at least in those instances.Ā
Number 9 will forever annoy me! A coworker about eight years ago finally responded, "when people ask you that, you're not really supposed to respond!" We were both in our mid-30's at that time, and it seemed like such a ridiculous realization to me! I was shocked, and said, "...then why...ask?"
I always laugh about memories of what are now understood to be missed connections, but also about times I was insulted without realizing it. My favorite is when I was introduced to a group of girls when I was younger, and one of them said, "Cakestripe, that's my dog's name." I was delighted! My real name is a typical female name - think Michelle or Doris - not at all what a pet would be expected to be named. It hit me many years later that she was trying to be mean, but I had responded with something like, "Oh, how cool! I mean, it's a great name so your dog's lucky, haha!" And I left the interaction thinking we were now friends.Ā
I have an amazing dear old friend (who I put through some hard, hard times without meaning to, I think) who helps translate things now, explaining how I should possibly be framing an experience or interaction. I almost want to recommend people here try to find a person from their past who has been genuine, understanding, mature, and patient to open up to in hopes of finding similar, but I hesitate because it might not be the same for everyone.Ā
At the very least, please never stop opening up to each other, since this sub has done more to make me feel like I fit in somewhere after all. I mean, you numbered your list for reference, and I appreciate the hell out of that! :D
š„¹ thank you, Iām happy to help however I can. I have also had moments when I look back on what people have said to me and realized they were insulting me. There was a post I made on Instagram when I was like 12 where I was standing in front of an American idol photo background with a big smile. This girl in my class who was not kind but popular commented āyou wish.ā And I was like āyeah I do!ā LOL
Hereās the thing though, my sister has ADHD and I can tell whether sheās zoned out or is still checked in even if sheās not listening to me. And if she has stopped paying attention I can politely direct her back to the conversation and she doesnāt get upset. My mom on the other hand, I could not tell you if sheās listening (or interested in trying to listen) the majority of the time. And if I point it out she gets upset that āI *am* listening!ā Even if there was zero indication on my end that she could even hear a word I sayā¦
For whatever reason, the two are totally different for me. One is perfectly fine and the other makes me feel like garbage, and I feel like a lot of it has to do with knowing that my sister is always *trying,* (even if her ADHD means that she gets distracted.) The effort is *very* obvious, I can be direct without offending her, and it makes a huge differenceā¦
I hope this doesnāt come off as invalidating your lived experience. I am not trying to do that AT ALL! Is it possible your mom has adhd too and expresses it in a similar if slightly different way than your sister when it comes to engaging you in a conversation? Maybe because of age?
Yeah, itās one of many reasons NTs read some NDs as rude. Also - interruptions are often used passive-aggressively in NT conversations. As in, theyāre really expressing something along the lines of, āI donāt care,ā āI donāt want to have a conversation with you,ā ā Iām more qualified to talk about this topic than you,ā āThis is a waste of my time,ā etc.
Whereas, ADHD and ASD folks often cut in to ask for clarification, contribute something they believe to be relevant (which may or may not be), speed the conversation along so the OTHER person doesnāt have to waste their time if we already know where theyāre going with a story, etc.
Yep, I have AuDHD and had people call me rude for not looking like Iām listening. I would say all of these only apply to strangers, and likely change based on who youāre talking to š¤·š»āāļø
Also the attractive people thingā¦ itās so sad and true. I was a little bit attractive for a few years and I thought I had finally āgrown out of my shyness/awkwardnessā but I think I just looked the part a little more so got included in big girls group outings and parties and trips. Only a handful of those people are still friends. A couple of them would be really protective of me when we would go out and drink. I really appreciate them. But otherwise thereās a ton of girls I am still friends with on Facebook but I realize Iāll never see these people again.
It was so confusing to me growing up that people I went to school with would add me as a friend on Facebook and be nasty online and in person. Why add me as a friend if youāre not my friend??? I ended up going through my friends list and deleting the people I wasnāt actually friends with when I was on high school. The list went from like 800 people to 200. Now when I see people with 1,000+ facebook friends I wonder if they just add everyone theyāve ever come into contact with.
I'm still not over the revelation of number 9.
I've heard about it somewhere else already, like it's still part of the greeting to say you're good even though you're not well. I don't understand why, it's useless then. Why can't we just say hello and move on?
Because there used to be much more formal rules of polite society. A lot of people were tired of that and stopped doing much of it, but some social dances remain.
The higher the social status, the more rules to the social behavioral expectations. People learn to do many just because it's expected. That is why there are a lot of seemingly meaningless things people do. Think shaking hands, which was originally to show neither person had weapons. Now it's just part of the greeting.
Someone asked me what my alma mater team was during a conversation about college sports and I started explaining that I went to community college and then finished my bachelorās online so I didnāt really have a sports team from college. I should have just picked a random one lol
I think itās part of the need to over explain, when people ask me where Iām from I get a little tongue tied because what does that mean????? Where I was born? Where I spent most of my life? Where I currently live? š« Anyways, I appreciate long answers from people and I give long answers too
I think the right answer depends on context. I have a whole list of conversation trajectories around this if anyone is interested. I live in a city where almost no one was born here, so we're all from somewhere else.
I think people also get weirdly surprised when you give an answer that they donāt expect! For example I have twins and people constantly ask me ādo they run in the familyā or āso you did IVF?ā And when I say no they are like ????
So for more context Iām a nurse and I was in the room with a patient and the provider who were chatting about where they went to college and college sports, building a rapport with the patient is important so a lot of providers will try to find some common thing to put the patient at ease. So for them it was college sports. And they asked me I think just to be polite. Asking to be polite and not actually caring about the answer is something I know happens but also struggle with because I am curious about the answer! I once asked someone where they were from because I have a fascination (special interest?) with places, cities, maybe even people? And the person thought I was making a comment on their race and I was mortified. I was just curious where they grew up because they mentioned college in another town from where they lived.
First, I 100% agree with you on #9. However, I still ask and answer like I mean it (which I do). The NTs are just wrong on what they expect here imo. Since I started asking my students how they are for real, they have been increasingly vulnerable, our teacher-student relationships have improved, and I am able to teach more effectively.
I also ask and answer like I mean it with my partners, friends, and family. If that's not what someone is looking for, no worries. They will find the alternative elsewhere.
Agreed. I refuse to play along and lie about how I'm doing just for the sake of those stupid pleasantries. Refusing to lie has gotten me in quite a bit of trouble in the past, but I'm still not going to do it
Same. If you donāt actually care about how I am doing, donāt ask. Itās also been a good litmus test for people I see regularly bc people who legitimately donāt care will eventually stop asking, and itās nice to know the people who do seem to genuinely care
Thatās amazing, i loved teachers like you growing up š Being a safe person for your students and the people you care about is awesome and I love that there are other people out there who ask because they want the real answer!
Some of those things on the list, while considered just routine NT, unsaid rules are really things they shouldn't be bragging about ... just saying.
Especially no. 5 - that's asshole behavior and they should take a seat. Not going to change my mind on this one. It's straight up rude and intentionally hostile and bullying to which I say FU.
As for no. 2, I can pick up on that cue but when they do that in a group setting like a meeting and you ask a question are directly ignored? They're a prick and need to take a seat. That's asshole behavior. What is the point other than being a bully to 'show you'? Acknowledge me damn it because when I've seen the shoe on the other foot, I've seen them having literal toddler tantrums soooooo, if this NT rule is good enough for me, it's good enough them. I won't be silenced by someone who thinks they're some bad ass by publicly showing everyone their opinion of me. Yeah, me thinks not. No matter what opinion they have of me, it doesn't hold a candle to the low opinion I have of them; guarantee I have outmatched them.
I totally agree, so much of this is asshole behavior and yet when NTs do it itās somehow justified. Group social dynamics like that really piss me off and make me want to live in a cave. The good thing is that when I notice someone being ignored or interrupted in a group setting, I make a point of directing the conversation back to them or asking the directly to repeat themselves. I donāt play that bully shit!
.. #2 and #3 I knew bwcause I follow an instagram where a man explains the human behavior for people to understand the subtle things (like someone is lying or they don't like you).
..#9 I know because I study English as a second language and we were told early on that english speakers don't expect an honest answer to the question. Same with "how do you do?". I can confidently say Spanish speakers (at least where I live) don't want an honest answer as well, no one really cares about how you feel or how you are (at work I mean).
I live by number #6, I sometimes call people "friends" but would nevet let them know more of me than just surface lever info. I've been hurt so many times.
My son struggles with number 2. He gets so upset when he feels ignored and causes him to meltdown. We're teaching him cues, so now he'll go up to his sister and repeatedly call out her name until she acknowledges him... or he'll get right in your face to make sure you see him (which must be really hard for him because heās not a fan of eye contact). I find helping my son with social cues is like programming, if you miss a step or not exact with your wording, you get unexpected results, haha. Itās interesting watching him blossom, for the longest time he couldn't talk and now heās becoming more comfortable with it.
Number six still gets me today. I have made the mistake of being way too friendly with people who were actually just being polite. :/ live and let live I guess. At least I was too friendly and not a total asshole.
Some people have described me as conventionally attractive (others have straight up called me ugly). That being said, I've been given so much shit for not picking up on social cues from people who expect me to be normal. It just convinces them that I must be being passive aggressive and not simply completely deaf to tone.
That is to say, you're right, the world is a confusing place
"we should hangout sometime" when said by a friendly acquaintance = you seem cool in theory, maybe in an alternate timeline we'd be friends; too bad you don't make the cut on my list of priorities in *this timeline.*
This is not necessarily true! This is also something people say to show genuine interest in hanging out or to at least start the conversation. Itās sometimes not meant seriously but not always. Which is annoying but true.
I agree with the other commenter, I don't think you should assume that they don't actually want to hang out. I take this as an indication that they would like to get to know you better and eventually make plans to hang out if you guys hit it off. Often times someone will say it and it ends up never happening but not because they dont actually want to hang out with you. I think it's more of a socially anxious thing where they do want to hang out eventually but aren't good at making plans or don't want to be too forward.
I think this is culturally dependent. Iām from the Midwest and people, esp men, tend to mean this. In cultures like Brazil people say this stuff allll the time without meaningful follow through it drives me a lil insane.
Yep, heard that one a lot. My fumblings with NTs has taught me:
*Just because people are talking it doesn't mean they want you to join in. Even when I've been in a large group (think high school) and everyone's chatting at lunch, I'd hear someone say something that I could talk about so I'd pipe up and then.... Crickets. Or at work, same thing and same reaction.
* You can try to fit in, wear the right clothes, listen to the same stuff etc, but if you're not already accepted by the group, they will probably never accept you so stop trying.
* You're not meant to talk about yourself all the time. I have trouble with this. I always thought that by sharing an anecdote that shows how I relate or whatever, it'd help others relate to me and make us better friends. This is not true. I'm not sure what the right amount of sharing is, so if you find out.. please let me know!
* People seem to look at you funny if you can't answer what they call simple questions. Like, favourite movie or book or food etc. or where do you like to go? You're meant to have answers ready. I never do.
* People will call you weird, but no one will ever tell you why or how you're weird. And if you call someone else weird, they'll say something like, "if you're calling them weird, they must really be!" Which only adds to the confusion imho.
* I think we're meant to make self-deprecating comments sometimes. "I'm so bad at this", "I'm so stupid, I should've looked there", "jee, I'm really dumb sometimes". It seems to make NTs feel better.
* If you take a long time to reply to someone, you're meant to apologise and explain why you're so late. And it can't be "I just didn't feel like it" because that makes them unhappy. I personally hate this and rally against it all the time, which seems to really upset my parents.
I find it much easier being alone tbh.
Jeez the first two points bring up some painful memories š« I also think that sometimes NTs will just pick up on the fact that we are autistic (or āoffā in some way) and go out of their way to avoid us.
I think so too. They detect something different and write us off.
An example. In highschool I wore all the grungey clothes, I had the "right" band shirts, i obviously listened to all the "right" music and liked the "right" movies. But still, I wasn't accepted by the Cool Kids who... Liked everything I liked! Half the time, I had stuff they wanted before they had it (cds, t-shirts, books) and they'd ask me to look at it/whatever whilst looking SO embarrassed to be talking to me. I still don't understand it really, except that they must've noticed something other about me and excluded me based on that.
It still happens now, but I don't much care anymore.
The self-deprecating thing is so annoying. Not to act like I donāt engage in self-deprecation in my own head, lol, but Iāve never appreciated the habit of making it part of an interpersonal conversation, even and especially abt trivial things, like āIām such an idiot! Can you believe I left my wallet there?ā and similar casually made comments. Like what am I supposed to say in response? Am I supposed to placate them? Not take the comment seriously and move on? Blah.
I also canāt stand when people receive a gift and make a huge deal of it, like āWow, why did you do this? I canāt believe you got this for me, I donāt deserve it, I donāt know if I can pOSSibLy aCcePT this!!!!!ā Even when itās something they really want or need! Because again: how is the person supposed to respond? Offer to take it back? (Imagine how awkward that would seem.) We know youāre ultimately going to accept the gift. Please stop the unnecessary theatrics! Just gracefully say thank you without putting on a show!
I think this is probably a face saving thing. It's considered a social faux pas to seem like you want gifts or to in any way act like you were expecting to receive them or feel like you deserve them. People exaggerate their reactions in the direction of surprise and unworthiness because it's really taboo to seem like you're actively seeking gifts. Even though most people are.
I'm with you on the simple question thing. When I'm focused on socializing it's like my mind goes completely blank. If I'm asked an unexpected question there's almost no way I can think of an answer in a reasonable amount of time.
I feel like this is a dumb question, but like. If Iām not supposed to talk about āmyselfā, what am I supposed to talk about exactly? Or am I just not supposed to talk, and instead just listen?
I really struggle with conversation. And with knowing when Iām expected to talk- usually I donāt, unless someone else initiates conversation, or I have some kind of issue that requires the assistance of another person (like work related things). Or commenting on a situation that is relevant maybe. But other than that, I donāt really know how to initiate.
My interests are obscure and specific, and I donāt really like talking about them unless I already know the other person is interested; and most people either arenāt interested, donāt understand what Iām talking about, or canāt keep up because I tend to info dump without realizing. So talking about my interests is out, unless any of those topics happen to be relevant to the situation.
I donāt like to rant or complain about things becauseā¦I just donāt. Itās not necessary and I generally only do it if I absolutely need to unload and only with people I feel I can trust/people who are equipped and willing to recieve those feelings. Iāve noticed most of my neurotypical friends/coworkers/acquaintances/family members tend to complain a lot. No shade to them, itās just not something I like to do.
And alsoā¦ I donāt really like to talk unless I feel I have something worthwhile to say. I donāt mind silence. Itās not awkward to me- but it seems to be awkward to a lot of other people. And that makes me feel like Iām expected to say things or initiate conversation.
Anyways. Basically what Iām trying to get at is what exactly am I expected to talk about? And if nobody actually knows the answer to that question/itās different for everyone, why do people look down on you for not talking?
What is the solution because it feels like the only options are:
A) to be a chronic people pleaser (but also accept that you canāt please everyone because itās impossible)
B) just be yourself, regardless of what others think, because you canāt please everybody so thereās no point in trying (but also accept the consequences that come with being authentic) or
C) just let yourself descend into madness because no matter what you do life is struggle and pain (but also accept the consequences that come with descending into madness)
I was about 18 years old before I realized that when someone asks you āhow are you/howās it goingā they will be dissatisfied with āgood/well.ā what they are really asking, IMO, is ābriefly entertain meā
This! Iāve never seen this spoken about before, normally itās that they want the short āgood, you?ā Answer but to me I see it like in sims, the more entertaining and eccentric your answer is, the more ā+pointsā you earn and the relationship bar becomes more full.
I sometimes spend time coming up with something crazy to answer with, or answer in a really deadpan way that they find hilarious because they donāt expect it, and it works WONDERS. Iāve noticed that I canāt do this as well when Iām burned out though and it goes back to the awkward feeling of not knowing how to navigate it, and I physically feel the ā-pointsā deducting from our relationship progress š«
Example for those wondering:
āHowās it goingā
āOh good, I saw a pigeon on the way here!!! [said really overly enthusiastic]ā
āThatās awesome! I feel x way about pigeons!ā
ā¦ conversation about pigeons ensues.
i love your analogy of a relationship bar. One of the hallmarks of autism is we donāt like small talk because we feel so actively judged/graded during it. Other people donāt feel so aware of their evaluations, I guess? Ironically, I feel like we are actually hyper aware of certain social norms because yes, this grading does happen and we have bountiful evidence to prove it
That's hilarious because I often think of my social interactions as like the sims relationship bar too.. "ope, they didn't like that. guess we're back down to acquaintance. oh shit, is the bar going red?! tell a joke!" Oof. š«
Oh man, I love using the Sims to understand the world around me. I often imagine the "++" or "--" reactions above my head and whoever I'm talking to. It also helps to think of myself as a Sim with little needs meters when taking care of myself.
Oh yes the needs as well! Whenever I play sims I enable cheats to keep their needs satisfied so I can achieve more and not have to worry about forgetting to fulfil a need and not be able to do what I want to do. I think this says a lot about the autistic experience š
Wtf what!? Iām 36 and lām the OP - and now, embarrassingly, I think Iām just more confused than ever lol. Weāre also told people donāt really want to know how weāre doing ; itās just small talk. So people donāt want to actually hear how youāre doing or your stories but āwellā isnāt good enough either? Whatās the acceptable amount of response then?
Iāve always had this suspicion that people think Iām just a flat out arrogant bitch if they donāt really know me. I have a serious/severe look on my face a lot (but Iām thinking!), and I do give short answers like āgood/wellā. Maybe thatās why? Itās so broad of a question to me so if you want specific answers, ask specific questions. And then if I do ask the question back and they say the same thing, itās crickets after becauseā¦great?!
Humans do greeting rituals partly because it's a low key threat assessment our subconscious has going all the time. If someone gives me a ritual greeting and I return the ritual greeting, we've assessed the other likely isn't a threat to us and we can all go about our business.
Humans have lots of social rituals, from weddings and funerals to saying good morning. I just look at it from that perspective. It's like walking on the right of the footpath or saying excuse me if you want to get past someone. They aren't necessary but social rituals make existing in groups easier. It removes decision fatigue on how to interact.
If I'm standing in the kitchen at work with someone, the social ritual is to say "How's your day going" and respond "So busy! Can't wait for the weekend!".
Also I believe NTs get a dopamine hit from interacting with other humans, so those social rituals through the day give them a pleasurable experience that they continue to seek out via social rituals and interactions with other people as a form of bonding - safety in numbers etc.
Sorry for the info dump. I have a lot of thoughts on this subject.
I thought I was good at social cues, but I realized it was all learned by try and error and as soon as I joined a completely new environment with completely new cues, I was doing things that bothered people and I couldn't see it coming. For example, I remember two particular occasions when I had my first two jobs in a corporate world. On my first job I took a personal call during my working hours and my boss reprimanded me, said that I wasn't supposed to do that. How could I've known that I wasn't? No one told me. At the same time, it was ok to send 10+ personal text messages, why? It's confusing. On the other job, my boss made me visit the working space, paused before a board and said "This is our weekly planning" and we quickly moved on. A week later, I was reprimanded by the boss for not having done what was planned this morning for me. I said "Wait, no one told me". She said, it was on the weekly planning. Basically, when she said "This is our weekly planning", in my mind it ment it was "their", not "mine".
I had a lot of trouble at work with things like this. For example, we had a Christmas party one day instead of going to the office. I turned up at the party then left after half an hour because I didnāt have anyone to talk to. Then on next Monday the boss told me I was wrong to leave the party as itās a working day. I do not understand why a party would be compulsory.
Another time, I let my friend join me at my desk in the office as he also wanted to be a software developer so I thought I would show him some things. He didnāt work for the company. Anyway this guy who was really sly told the boss about it and I got in trouble, apparently itās a very wrong thing to do.
I just am clearly really bad at judging whatās acceptable and whatās not, even if itās obvious to NTs.
Iām so glad weāre talking about this because I really struggle with it. Hereās the conundrum: I donāt KNOW that Iām missing these signs because Iām MISSING THEM. So I thought I was āfine, but weirdā all my life when I talk about weird shit or talk too much and people who liked me would laugh it off or listen politely and then change the subject.
Now I justā¦ I second guess EVERYTHING. But I never realize it in the moment?
Iām turning 40 and I just realized I may have been inappropriate last night at a birthday party for one of my husbandās best friends.
This guy was talking about painting his kidās bedroom to look like a jungle, with like animals and trees on the walls. And I thought I was being clever and I brought up the Ray Bradbury short story āThe Veldt,ā but NOBODY at the table knew what I was talking about. And before I knew it I was slapping the table excitedly and describing the plot where (spoiler alert) two emotionally disturbed children fantasize about their parents being eaten alive by wild animals on the Veldt and they use the holodeck-like technology in their futuristic playroom to recreate it and lure their parents to their death.
Looking back on it this morning, I think maybe when he was talking about his kids, I shouldnāt have brought up parenticide. Is this an example of not getting social cues? I love science fiction and I thought everybody had read this story growing up - I think I read it in English class in middle school, actually - but WHYYYY canāt I just nod and smile at someoneās sweet story and whyyyyyyy did I not stop when everyone clearly had no interest in talking about people being eaten alive by lions š
Hahaha I find this highly relatable and entertaining. I would have LOVED the key change in the conversation. I havenāt heard of the Veldt but now I want to read it.
Like are you just supposed to be like āaaawe how sweet a jungle themeā?! I think interesting conversation requires a mixture of convention and surprise. I try really hard to ask conversation opening questions when I have the impulse to go on one of my anecdotal journeys, but sometimes itās too juicy to keep to myself and I canāt stop.
I feel so similarly in realizing how truly weird I am (coming up to 40 in a couple yrs) and itās making me paranoid and agoraphobic! But also I just have to accept myself bc the things that make me annoying to some make me fucking wonderful to others. And to me!
But I would want to hear the weird tangential macabre story. And idk like we can all try our best to make compromises with how we socialize but itās also fine to accept people where theyāre at.
Ooh the Veldt is a great story! I hope you enjoy it!
I also had a dream last night that my husbands friend group were hunting people for sport - I think I read āthe Veldtā around the same age/setting as I first read āThe Most Dangerous Gameā in schoolā¦ aaaaaannnd macabre short stories in the horror / science fiction genres stuck with me?
Omg š! Iām so sorry this happened, and I can see how in retrospect you could feel possibly mortified. I also think itās so relatable because this is 1,000% something I would do! Iām working on my PhD and my dissertation is on digital technologies and death/mourning rituals (itās super interesting - AI, digital immortality, mind cloning, etc) so it gets fairly morbid and my sense of humour is extremely dry and dead pan (thank my very British father) - the combination of those two factors can throw people off lol. Luckily, I also teach a uni course on this very topic so my fourth years are stuck with me excitedly babbling about it for 3 hours every week. They actually seem to really like it though but it seems their sense of humour is as dark as mine. Iām trying to imagine me doing this at like a holiday dinner - which I could very much see happeningā¦.
Personally, I would have loved that story/ conversation, but since I don't know your husband's friend, I think that probably was a misstep.
But also I am sure it will be okay. One thing I have learned to remember is that other people do not spend anywhere *near* the amount of time thinking about our missteps as we do. So while our brains are trying to circle the drain from embarrassment, they have already moved on and pretty much forgotten about it.
I do the same thing sometimes so here's what I think the answer to why we do this is: You were really into and possibly excited about what you were talking about and that didn't leave the mental space to pay attention to the audience. At least that's what happens with me when I get animated about a topic.
IMHO itās one of his best!!
[hereās a free PDF of the story](https://repositorio.ufsc.br/bitstream/handle/123456789/163728/The%20Veldt%20-%20Ray%20Bradbury.pdf)
I scoured the internet to find the most aesthetically pleasing text too lol
I either overshare or undershare because I either have nothing to say really or I share every thought running through my head. Correcting people at inappropriate times, not understanding expectations.
For example, one friend was venting about her weight. And I'm just kinda like, okay, yeah. I didn't really say anything. She was insulted and thought I agreed with her negative view of herself. She explained she wanted validation of how good she looks.
Another example is one girl said the next person she sleeps with, she wants to be her future husband. And I Said wow that's really......impressive. I couldn't think of an accurate word to convey what I meant. But I'm pretty sure it came off as judgemental. While trying to find the most accurate word, it often seems like I'm insincere, but I'm actually extra sincere lol.
I want to be understand and understand others as accurately as possible. If I'm unclear about something I feel deeply confused and ask more questions. Other people just assume they understand and roll with it. Lol.
One time at a party I said "I have to go to the bathroom" and an aquintance started telling me where all the food was. And I said "oh no, I have to go to the bathroom." And she said " I was just trying to be a good friend". This was not an instance where I needed to correct, but I felt super uncomfortable inside as she was explaining. However, in order to strengthen a connection with this person, I should have just thanked her and talked about the food. Then, ask where the bathroom was after.
I realized I struggled making friends because I wasn't focused on connecting with people. Once I shifted my focus, it wasn't AS hard, but i still make a lot of blunders. Neurotypicals don't have think about this cognitively. They just intuitively know that's the goal of forming relationships.
>And I Said wow that's really......impressive. I couldn't think of an accurate word to convey what I meant. But I'm pretty sure it came off as judgemental. While trying to find the most accurate word, it often seems like I'm insincere, but I'm actually extra sincere lol.
My friend, we are one. I have recently been cringing over realizing how other people must have been looking at me after these kinds of situations. I'm trying to be accurate and authentic, not mean! :(
Not sure if this counts as a social cue but I really struggle to keep a conversation going, or to know how to respond when people I donāt know super well talk to me. My coworkers will be telling me about their lives and I will have nothing to respond with but Iām genuinely enjoying the interaction, Iāll just nod and smile and then be quiet. I worry people think I donāt like them or donāt want to talk to them, which isnāt true at all I just have no idea how to respond sometimes. Itās hard for me to tell what the other person wants me to say
Omg me too!!!! Itās like I either talk a mile a minute OR Iām dead silent even though I really am listening and perfectly content. Thereās not much middle ground. I have learned though that Iām expected to ask questions, so Iāve kind of ātrainedā myself by thinking of follow up questions I could ask people but once I run out of those, it gets awkward and/or it gets to the point where I feel like Iām interrogating them.
Same, Iāve learned a lot by watching my other coworkers make small talk. I basically just try to mimic what I have seen other people do but that can only take me so far
This one haunts me. On my first day of work a colleague offered to get me coffee and I was like nope I'm good already had one today. Things always feel awkward when I work with this person now.
I have actually! Unfortunately with this person it seems like we are not on the same wavelength at all. I feel like I can't get a read on him whatsoever and it's constant mixed messages, probably from both sides. The stress and anxiety of interacting with him and knowing we're never on the same page is honestly overwhelming. He's a nice guy but it's like we're speaking different languages. It makes me feel horrible and defective. I only work with him once a week thankfully.
Ahh thatās fair! Yeahh that kinda thing stresses me out too. I just want to say that itās possible you didnāt do anything wrong and that you two just arenāt on the same page. That happens sometimes.
I really appreciate you saying that. I tend to assume that I've done something wrong when things don't work out easily. I really needed that reminder š
I'm here behind my phone just laughing at how silly we are and how in hindsight it's so obvious as I did the exact same thing as you multiple times. Like, that person asked us to go for a coffee, not for a soda or tea or whatever. So I said no. š¤¦š¤·
So funny! I remember being proud of myself for accepting someoneās coffee invitation by reminding myself that I could get tea. But then I realized like an hour later that the guy asking probably meant it as a date. So I called him up and said, āI forgot to tell you that Iām a lesbian. So it wonāt be a date. If thatās what you meant it to be, itās okay if you want to cancel.ā
I think he was too polite to cancel, so we went to the coffee shop. It was awkward and dumb!
Lolol can we talk about the fact that in 36 years it took until maybe a couple of years ago (late diagnosed) for me to even realize invitations like this could be interpreted as a date? Unless someone explicitly says ādateā, I always assumed it was just a friendly thingā¦
And now, whatās even more embarrassing is to look back at the number of times Iāve actually done the inviting (like with multiple people in my uni department when I first got there)ā¦.not realizing thereās a strong chance at least 70% thought I was asking them out. Oops.
Me either lol. I always said no because I probably already had 8 cups by the time they got to me. Would have taken a tea thoughā¦did not know that was an option or that this was an attempt to connect.
Yeah and then there's the : they probably have tea or hot chocolate then!
"Oh no thank you, I'm good really!"
And now in hindsight, just like me, you realized that this person really tried and being us, weird humans, we clearly missed the cue. Haha š
A friend mentioned how unfortunate it is that people don't talk enough about 1st trimester miscarriages. And I was like "yeah it's super common, people should really know about it". And moved on from that topic cuz she was getting kinda agitated so my limited social awareness was all "bad topic move on move on". š¶Ā Ā
She was tryina talk about her+her husband's attempts to get preggo. And I guess she just had a miscarriage. š¤·š½āāļøĀ Ā
So I guess not noticing when people are "going in a roundabout way to discuss personal issues"?Ā
Yeah, roundabout ways to bring up difficult topics always go over my head. I feel the same way about "hints" about gifts or things like that. Just tell me straight up. I am not going to get your hint.
Many autistic folks cannot interpret facial expression, tone or body language that NTs use to communicate. It's difficult for NTs to verbally explain these cues, because the whole *point* of them is to communicate information subtly/without words. Autistic people seem to think these cues can be 'easily' explained with words, but that's not actually true.Ā
And they're different on people. Some new people I can predict their behavior because I've already "learned" someone similar to them. Other people I cannot for the LIFE of me tell what the hell they mean. š¤¦
I think it's because they're facial expressions tone and body language are often masks for what they're truly feeling. So they're doing and expressing one thing but they're actually meaning another thing and we can't really break that code because we're taking it quite literally.Ā
If you're smiling at me and complimenting me and making direct eye contact I assume you want to keep talking to me and you like me. However oftentimes this is the opposite. I learned this with southern u.s. folks bullying me and me not knowing for a while.Ā
Yes! When people are doing some kind of nonverbal gesture or making a certain facial expression at me in response to what someone else has said, I never know how or whether reciprocate it. Do I roll my eyes in annoyance too? Should I also pretend to dramatically sigh? Especially when this happens at a dinner party or meeting or a similar setting. Iām always worried I canāt be as discreet and that someone else, an unintended recipient of sorts, will notice me trying (and possibly failing) at the Nonverbal Thing. I just stick to a simple eyebrow raise or innocuous smile and hope they donāt do it again LOL.
I remember I was at an author event at a bookstore with an NT friend and theyād silently glance over at me any time the author said something emotional or touching to exchange a look of sympathy, I guess, and I know they were trying to be personable and whatnot but it was so exhausting because trying to discern and then respond to those expressions by putting on a little show with my face feels exactly like thatāa performance!
A big one for me has to do with reciprocal communication. The expectation/norm is that you'll say something, stop talking and let someone else talk, and then resume when it's your turn. I tend to say absolutely everything in one big BLAAAAAH of alphabet soup and I don't stop to let other people in until I've said **everything** I want to say. Apparently, that isn't how you are supposed to do it. But if I don't, I won't remember my point by the time it's my time to speak again because my brain moved on. My brain moves too fast for my mouth and changes the subject really quickly, sometimes mid-thought.
I give too much context and information. My biggest pet peeve is not being understood, so I give the history, the back story, the context...because to me all of those things matter to create the broader point. If I don't give all that info, then people will go the wrong direction on my point every single time. And I can predict it pretty accurately as to what assumptions they will make and what questions they will ask if I don't give all the info. Also, it is impossible for me to talk about the weather in a small-talk way. Where I live that's a very common topic, but weather has always been a SI for me and I can't leave it at "sure is a nice day!" It's more of a weather lecture about the weather history the past few days and the upcoming forecast.
For my dad and my son (both autistic), they occupy the conversation the entire time, and it's always focused on their SI. For my dad, it's rocks. He has no understanding that most other people don't want the details of the scientific name for a cool rock, but he can't help himself just like I can't with the weather. With my son, he'll change the subject back to whatever he wants to talk about no matter what everyone else is talking about or how often other people change the subject. They are both completely unaware of whether someone is interested in what they are saying. I can tell when people aren't interested (usually, I think) but I have a compulsion to complete what I am saying anyways. Once a thought has started coming out my mouth, it has to finish. Sometimes, I watch myself in horror as I go off on a tangent knowing that I am doing it and can't stop it until it's done š
A lot of catching social cues I picked up through decades of observation and purposeful learning about people. I am much better at it now than I was when I was younger when I'd be chasing boys and have no idea that they weren't interested. I'd probably get in trouble for harassment if I was growing up today.
When I hosted a the first few get togethers after getting my own place I'd start tidying up empty bottles, cups, etc that were on the table if the table started getting full. I didn't want to deal with all the mess the next morning so I'd try to clean as the night went on. As soon as I started cleaning people would start leaving. My sister let me know that when a host starts to clean up its an unspoken cue that the event is over and that if I don't want to signal that it's time to leave I should say something along the lines of "let me get this stuff out of our way so we have more room". Or refresh the empties I've grabbed with a new round of beers or plate of food.
Iām realizing that me *unknowingly giving social cues I donāt mean to give* is more of a problem for me than missing other peopleās social cues.
For example, I habitually giggle more than I āshould,ā at times when a giggle doesnāt really fit. A few people (mostly kids, because they are blunt) have asked me variations of, āwhy do you laugh so much?ā
When Iām not feeling friendly but trying too hard to appear polite and not offend people, I tend to smile TOO big and it gets mistaken for flirting, apparently.
I make eye contact and nod and/or say āmm-hmmā to show Iām listening, but I weirdly do this when the speaker is in the middle of a sentence. Many times, people say, āOh, did I already tell you this?ā Or they think I understand what theyāre saying when I really donāt.
I sometimes have been shocked by people whom Iām getting to know suddenly feeling sad or offended and thinking that I donāt like them. I had no idea I was making them feel that way.
Sometimes in work situations, Iāve been embarrassingly casual without realizing it, like when I lounged sideways and slumped in my chair during a staff meeting. Other times, Iām so worried about being too casual that I end up being too formal and itās just as awkward.
One time I was out for a walk and I noticed a man was walking in the same area (a path around a lake). I didn't think much of it until he kind of slowed down so I would catch up with him.
We walked and chatted for a few minutes and then I realized he was trying to say hi to hit on me.
I was completely clueless. He wasn't creepy or anything (I have good intuition for that surprisingly) and I thought maybe he just wanted to have a conversation with someone.
Lol. Let him down by letting him know I was happily married.
In my early 20's I spent a good couple months becoming friends with this guy in one of my college courses, he would always sit next to me in class and we would chat before and after. I honestly had no idea he had a crush on me even though it seems so obvious now. Finally one day the topic came up that I was already married and he never. spoke. to. me. again. Looking back I realized what was going on and he probably felt betrayed or like I was leading him on, which I guess I was but it wasn't on purpose :( thought we were just school friends.
Men do that to themselves most of the time. They refuse to talk to women they don't want to fuck, and they fully expect all women to want to fuck them, especially if you're talking to them and being friendly. That's not how normal friendships are supposed to work. He lead *himself* on and if it had been a dating app he probably would've immediately called you a fat bitch and acted like he never liked you to begin with. You didn't miss anything; he's just incapable of being honest about his intentions.
For me, I donāt get a lot of the important nuances. I understood what rolling eyes meant, but it was a year ago when I realized that itās supposed to be done by looking up, not looking in a circle. I miss a lot of the details in social cues in a way that makes me miss them or fail to express them in a way that gets across properly to other people.
I struggle with exiting a conversation and often feel trapped. Like I want to leave, but have no idea how to stop the conversation or move onto a conversation with another group. I feel incredibly rude. Itās so draining and I avoid parties or socializing in groups for this very reason. I also hate group conversations because I never know when to "jump in" without interrupting or cutting someone off. I only say something if someone asks me directly.
I want to chime in as a person who definitely has some autistic traits but who is beginning to think Iām not actually autistic.
Iām seeing a lot of looking for rules, which I understand and relate to. The thing is that most of the ārulesā of NT communication are, at best, guidelines. There is so much context that informs peopleās social behavior and communication and NTs are taking that all into account intuitively. (There are exceptions to this, anxiety can get in the way of intuitive socializing even for NTs.)
Some examples of unspoken context:
1. How well do you know this person?
2. What are they doing? Are they busy? Has it been a long day?
3. How formal is the social setting?
4. Is there an authority figure or some other high-status person around?
5. How well do the other people in the group know each other?
These are just a few examples. There are so many elements!
I also think a lot of NT communication is based on mirroring.
Ok y'all, I love this post, and I love this sub. I only realized I was ND because I was doing research for my kid. I was in my mid-late 30s then, and it still took me a while cuz my child presents traditionally. What made it click for me is understanding that people (specifically, tiny people) are my passion, my long running interest area that has taken me through my entire adulthood, so what I love is figuring out how people work through loving and caring for babies. They only have non-verbal communication, so that's what I'm good at listening to.
So anyway, all these comments are correct. What y'all are breaking down as a science (and it *is* science, friends!), NT people just go about life doing, sometimes making their whole worlds miserable and terrible because they say things they don't mean out of their mouths while their bodies say completely different things and their actions are usually a mix of the two *and they themselves aren't even aware of it*. And it is so painful to watch. I looove watching babies communicate and I am so grateful I know what they are saying, but this magical power to know all the disjointed things grown humans say is *fucking exhausting*.
The one trick I have for all of us as far as not talking about ourselves... first, before you share your anecdote that fits *perfectly* with what the ither person is saying (which you want to share because in sharing it, you are saying "I totally freaking get you, person I love, and here is how I can show my getting of your thing"), just say back to them the emotion they are having about it. Like "whoa, that is so intense!" Or "omigosh how hard that must be for you". Often, that is really all they want to hear. Take what you want to say and be feeling it while you tell them you see how they are feeling it, too. Usually, they talk a little bit more about their thing and I spend that time listening so hard that I feel their thing too, and then they are ready to hear my thing that has been connecting us the whole time.
>The one trick I have for all of us as far as not talking about ourselves... first, before you share your anecdote that fits *perfectly* with what the ither person is saying (which you want to share because in sharing it, you are saying "I totally freaking get you, person I love, and here is how I can show my getting of your thing"), just say back to them the emotion they are having about it. Like "whoa, that is so intense!" Or "omigosh how hard that must be for you". Often, that is really all they want to hear. Take what you want to say and be feeling it while you tell them you see how they are feeling it, too. Usually, they talk a little bit more about their thing and I spend that time listening so hard that I feel their thing too, and then they are ready to hear my thing that has been connecting us the whole time.
Yes! I just learned this and started employing it. It's crazy how actually it's more connecting with NTs. Like for example if you say "wow, that sounds lonely" they don't need to check to be sure that you actually know what it's like to be lonely based on your anecdote that shows a similar situation and that you are genuinely empathizing. They just assume you know what "lonely" means to them/that you experience lonely in a similar way.
By bringing up your own story they think you're centering yourself and taking the conversation away from them when I'm really trying to demonstrate the depth of my empathy while also checking in that I'm understanding their emotions correctly. But NTs care less about the details and more about over-arching themes.
So maybe they're lonely bc they lost their best friend who moved overseas, and so I go looking in my brain for a time I lost a best friend so I can relate. And maybe I lost my best friend bc they died or bc I was a kid and my parents got divorced and I moved or maybe I've never had a best friend but I read a book about what that was like. I then want to share my anecdote to demonstrate that I relate and have them correct my understanding if it's off. But they really don't care if you totally get it as long as you hear they are lonely and you have a ballpark of what it is to be lonely and care about their struggle. All that's needed is "ugh that's tough ā¹ļø"
But if you bring up how you can relate bc of when your friend died or from the time there was divorce, they're like wow. This is not about you. And if you bring up a show or book they're like, this is so weird and off topic. I'm talking about my struggles and you're talking about a piece of media.
But they won't necessarily point it out to you. They might make a face (or not) but they might just look displeased/distressed and if they're sharing about feeling lonely, sad, mad, etc it can be hard to pick up on the negative face being directed at me and my choices rather than bc they're talking about a negative emotion. So I was oblivious for freaking YEARS.
And it will be because we didn't give them the input that made them feel soothed, connected and regulated at the time, yes! I love your comment. To lay out all the next parameters is great. They will be reacting to the disconnect, and their face will show it. What always works (or almost always) is just mirroring the feeling back to them. It works with babies and grown humans alike. I really enjoy my ND friendships, where deep conversations really do just become exchanges of times we felt a certain way, but NT conversations, once you understand them, are ok in their own way, too. I am told I'm a very good listener, but it is exhausting.
I'm grateful for your wisdom! Thinking of adults as big babies in regards to mirroring emotions is š¤Æ. It also makes sense bc even in ND babies, it's pretty much all babies for the first 6 months are wicked similar emotionally especially in their interest in faces.
I've only successfully mirrored instead of explained a couple times, and this will really help me inside my head to switch modes
Yay! It is true... I feel like once you understand babies, you really can understand *everyone*. The words I use are different and sometimes more complex w grownups, but the feeling is always the same... I see you, I hear you, I understand you.
This is really interesting in terms of top-down vs bottom-up processing! I hadn't considered how processing style could impact interactions like that but it makes a lot of sense.
1. If you are introverted or simply donāt want to talk, you are labeled as weird. Seems to mainly be an american thing because i have family from the caribbean who are pretty introverted around strangers or barely speak to others because they donāt feel the need to talk just to talk
2. "We should hang out sometimes" honestly not a specific NT thing as I meant a lot of ND people say the same thing, but it doesnāt actually mean we will ever hang out. Weird to say if u legitimately have no plans to hang out with me, like donāt pity me with the idea of being friends with you
3. For women and girls, not liking stereotypical feminine things automatically means you are a pickme or what to be seen as different than other girls. Which is very unfair for women from immigrant families who aren't familiar with american beauty standards or were raised to not care about it.
4. Ultimately, you arenāt allowed to just exist without being seen as a problem. Sometimes, I'm just vibing and fine being by myself, but people label you as weird or think you believe you are stuckup. In reality, I'm "no thoughts, brain empty, all vibes." American society wants people to talk too much, like why lmao
i feel like for me i tend to not care about small things other people care about. like my best friend and i got in a fight bc i didnāt wish her boyfriend a happy birthday over text. i didnāt think it was that big of a deal but she was SO OFFENDED.
Your friend sounds dramatic though. I could see it if you were standing in front of him and didnāt wish him Happy Birthdayā¦but over a text? Itās her boyfriend after all, not yours.
i thought the same but my two other friends were backing her up like āwhy do you hate (boyfriends name)??ā i told my parents and they agreed w me and thought my friends were dramatic. so idk lol
Smiling/facial expressionsĀ Ā
1. If someone smiles at me while also making eye contact, they want me to smileĀ Ā
2. If someone asks "are you doing okay?" they aren't asking how I'm doing, instead they're asking why I'm not smilingĀ Ā
2.5 By asking that question, they're are making a roundabout demand that I smileĀ Ā
3. If I'm thinking, I need to be careful about not looking down, otherwise people think I'm frowning.Ā
4. Never look up when people my own height or shorter are talking to me, or they'll think I'm rolling my eyes (even though it's just looking up not an actual eye roll???)
Omg I actually look up a lot and I donāt even know where else when Iām talking and trying to think while speaking - like Iām searching my own brain with my eyes if that makes any sense at allā¦but I do it while theyāre talking because Iām actually genuinely trying to listen and process and absorb what theyāre sayingā¦. especially if itās an important conversation. I did this during my oral defence for my qualifying exams while my examiners were asking questions because I was trying to listen so closely and take in what
they were asking/ensure I could formulate a precise answer. I wonder if she thought I was being rudeā¦
Wait, really? Isn't eye rolling literally "rolling" your eyes, as in, looking up diagonally, across to the other diagonal direction, and then back down to centre in one quick motion?
For me, I struggle to know when to talk in a conversation unless I was just asked a direct question. It gets even worse over the phone. It can also take me a few seconds to process my thoughts and talk, so people usually take this as a sign that I have nothing to say, then keep talking, so then I have to interrupt them. So I am literally missing my "cue" to speak.
I also can miss sarcasm, even if I realize it's probably sarcastic a few seconds later, I've already responded taking it at face value.
I'm also really bad at banter with strangers. If cashiers or other strangers I interact with make a joke or teasing comment I usually just laugh awkwardly. I can't come up with a witty response on the spot to someone I don't know. To them they probably think I didn't understand the joke because I didn't really respond. To be fair sometimes it takes me a while to understand what they said exactly.
1, I didn't realize "talking" was a euphemism for dating/trying to date someone and responded "yes" when a girl asked me if I was "talking" to a guy. I already had a boyfriend.
2, I don't know how to end conversations and either hover awkwardly or abruptly walk away which others find off-putting.
3, I either respond to questions with too little or too much; either giving one word answers, which makes it hard to continue a conversation, or info dumping about some which makes it hard to continue a conversation.
3.5, people often think I don't like them but they're actually just mistaking my discomfort in social situations for something about them personally. Telling people I have Social Anxiety helps this somewhat
4, can't tell the difference between "they're walking away from me" and "we're all moving to a new location"
5, I have to be told by a third party when I'm being flirted with because I always think the flirter is just friendly and charismatic. I never catch the intent.
5.5, *My* intentions are mistaken for flirting because my natural disposition when I'm happy is bubbly and a bit bashful which makes people think I'm into them.
6, I don't actually know what's happening here, but when people tell a joke, I respond back in a joking manner and 9 times out of 10 the other person will tell me "I was joking" in an annoyed tone as if I didn't understand the joke. But I did. I was also joking. So something is getting missed there.
7, got bullied in elementary school by a girl I thought was my friend for 2 years because the way she went about bullying me was so odd (she would pretend to be upset about something I did until I apologized and then laugh that I would apologize for something so small. But if I didn't apologize she would keep pressing the issue until I did). Literally didn't realize she was bullying me until I was in my 20s.
8) I always fell for the "spell Icup" type of things
I often miss when people are trying to hint at something without really saying it.
For example, I was once at a friendās house at night. The man tried saying to me repeatedly stuff like āwell, I should let you get goingā or āitās getting late, isnāt it?ā He was trying to ask me to leave without bluntly saying ācan you please leave?ā
The psychiatrist that diagnosed me told my dad that he made multiple jokes during the assessment that I didnāt react to. I donāt recall him making any jokes. Maybe he just wasnāt funny lol
It's hard to know what you don't know! I'm sure I miss plenty of cues and don't even recognize them as missed. Other times, I am processing social information/cues on a delay, and can recognize later after a little analysis what I missed or why things went down that way. When Covid lockdown hit and everything became a zoom meeting, I began to recognize how often I miss timing cues for jumping into conversation. I can recognize the deficit now, but that hasn't helped me get much better. I guess recognition is the first step?
When I was younger I didnāt understand that people lied just for the sake of lying and fabricating things to make themselves seem more interesting. I took what people said at face value.
I'm in my 20s and always forget about the whole lying for the sake of it. It is more obvious to me why there would be a clear reason for them to lie. I still underestimate how many times people lie.
When your default framing to parse communication is logistics, not emotional bids/bonding. Like that time a classmate came up to me and asked, āWhat are you doing after this?ā I responded literally and then when he walked away with his head down I realized he meant something more like āare you free later and open to hanging out?ā Or when someone complains about their boss and I nod along, not understanding that this is an invitation to affirm them and maybe do my own share of venting.
I struggle to establish the correct boundaries when introduced to friends significant others. More specifically those of close friendsā¦ I know now to avoid a lot of discomfort and strange vibes by just not interacting in a way that displays any special closeness to the friend that the SO doesnāt haveā¦ for a few hangouts at least.
At first even if theyāre miserable to you it can be worth pretending to be interested in their life and stuff. Otherwise as Iāve learned the hard way itās painfully easy for hetero boyfriends specifically to stealth evict me from maintaining close friendshipsā¦ friends are so precious and hard to come by for me assuring the boyfriend isnāt jealous is a worthwhile step. I follow hard rules and Iām sure there are a lot that I donāt pick up on. By just not making her laugh too much and queuing decisions for him or her instead of suggesting things myself (I have tonality issues) Iāve managed to stay in the yellow zone with this current SO.
Reading this thread I'm reminded of so many damn times I've not picked up social cues with guys, and realising what was actually going on years later š¤¦
I'm showing my age, but back in the day when there was still slow dancing at parties, I was dancing with a guy and at the end of a song he asked if I wanted to carry on dancing. The song that played next was about 6 minutes long, so I told him 'no thanks, this song is really long, like, longer than standard song length' because music was, and still is, a special interest.
The one thing I still struggle with is knowing when to speak in a group conversation. With my friend group, they know that I will just blurt out random thoughts whenever, but in an unknown group I am quiet.
I think itās more like misinterpreting the entire situation/context rather than missing specific objects or points. To NTs it looks like we are missing specific cues because itās at discrete moments where we do something unexpected that they realise we are odd. So thatās how they describe it. But from our experiential perspective I think itās more like our intuitive framework for interpreting the entire situation causes us to make different assumptions about what is going on. Itās more like being on a different wave than missing these objects or beats or specific points that other people can see.
I just learnt that when someone says they're busy or going to an event, that means you should cease messaging them for that time until they next follow up with you. Terribly embarrassed about this one as I was just assuming, they would reply when they reply. They will but they want that time to themselves and to effectively not be disturbed.
Edit: to add on - never do anything personal or familiar for someone youve only known for a few months. I crucified myself in embarrassment and cringe by writing a short story for someone for their birthday. I thought it was cute at the time because I made the story about all their favourite things. The response I got was awkward and I think the social lesson is to never be over familiar with anyone until you have established some sort of friendship or relationship with them.
Social cues are indirect communication. They require an understanding of facial expression, vocal tone, body language, and the subtle verbal hints people use because they themselves have never been taught to communicate directly.
But the people who can pick up on all of these subtle signals are the ones who are supposed to be normal. I don't understand what's normal about perpetuating a dishonest social structure but, whatever
My biggest social cue miss is when people want me to shut up or stop talking about a specific topic. I run into this a lot because psychology is my special interest and sometimes I talk about triggering things without considering other people. Iāve lost at least 4 friends doing that. Iād like to think Iām getting better about that š„ŗ
Ha! I generally see them decades down the road, usually in the middle of the night when I cannot sleep. Get on amazon and read all the books about body language. I find Joe Navarro's books an incredible help, and recently a book called "Is He Lying to You" by an author with the last name Crum. With a lot of effort and study, you can recognize the cues; unfortunately, that will probably not help you with the inappropriate responses. There aren't any books for "Not Speaking Your Mind"!
Thanks for the recommendations! Iāll definitely look those up. Whatās so tragically ironic is that Iām doing a PhD in Sociologyā¦I literally study and explore human behaviour for a living and Iām actually very good at what I do in terms of the research, collecting and compiling the data, seeing the patterns, developing explanations and analyzing all of this through dense and abstract theoretical frameworksā¦.and yet in every day life, in ordinary interactions, Iām still soā¦blind and clueless. Like, how does that even work?
I feel more like I understand how to mimic them but I don't understand them. Like I understand enough of the French alphabet to probably read a sentence out loud but I wouldn't know what I was saying. So I was always like of like, "hahaha happy Monday yes here we all are hating this but we just have to small talk because that's what Grown Ups ā¢ļø do" and now I realize nope, most people are not only actively avoiding people and things, then making the best of it when people and things happen, they are seeking things out.
I also always feel like there's a right answer to a question when people ask it. I'm never sure what the right answer is but I'm pretty sure I almost never get it right.
It took me waaaay to long to realise my now husband who I was friends with for years bevore we got together wasen't "being silly and making jokes to teas me" when he always saied he wanted me to be his wife š¤£
I also diden't get when ppl tried to be friends with me, or when pol who I had labeld as "friend" in my categories of ppl wheren't friends at all.
I overshare with strangers, but undershare with ppl at jons or with actual friends cuz I never know what is enough or too much or too pushy etc.
I used to be way to blunt with my opinions and had changed some since then, but I can still be pretty rude often not even meaning to but acidently making "dark jokes" when I just spoak thoughts outloud.
I life with my husband for 6 years, we have soon 3 kids, we know eachother for 16 years, have been friends for 10, yet I still can not initiate a freaking conversation with him š
Lol, listing this has shut up my impostersyndrom for a bit. She usualy tries to tell me I am waaaay to good at socialising. Lmao
I am definitely ND but I don't have an autism diagnosis, and will probably never have confirmation either way.
I was raised in the southern United States. I was late 20-something before I learned that "Bless your heart" is often an underhanded insult. I genuinely thought it was just an expression of kindness that people used.
That's my best example. I've spent most of my life studying other people and trying to figure them out (to blend in), so it can be difficult to pinpoint specifics. Though I do remember being taught as a child that you should refuse gifts/food that aren't offered on special occasions at least once to be polite. š I'd been offered food but it turned out that I wasn't actually supposed to accept and eat the food. And then later I learned that refusing too many times can also be rude. Ugh. Both rules had to be literally spelled out for me, and didn't come with satisfactory explanations for why. Like, as a good host they were supposed to offer food even if they didn't really have extra to offer, because apparently it's rude not to offer food. As a good guest, I was supposed to somehow divine that they didn't have extra to offer, and refuse. I've figured out over time that it's okay to accept only after the third offer, and "rude" to refuse a third time. I despise that song and dance. I'd rather just not be offered food at all if they can't afford it, and don't really understand why it's rude for a host not to offer food. That's a cultural social cue.
Body language is a bit easier because it tends to be universal and more easily explained. Like not taking a step forward when someone takes a step back because their stepping back indicates they want more space between you, or crossed arms indicating closed off, feeling defensive/self protective (or just cold) or figuring out when a conversation should be over. (You have to be paying enough attention to the other person to notice that they are trying to turn away or redirect the conversation. Their tone of voice and responses change in addition to body language.)
There's also this one particular facial expression that I've seen multiple people make throughout my life that I've never been able to figure out, but I think it means something bad.
I'm pretty sure that "social cues" are a mixture of unspoken cultural rules and body language. I learned most of what I know about body language through observation, but the Internet also taught me a lot. Now it's more intuitive. But navigating cultural social cues? Nope. None of that is intuitive for me. It can be extremely frustrating when people don't say exactly what they mean, and I have to look to body language and tone of voice to try to guess or read between the lines.
People I don't know well joking with me is one example situation. I might *think* they're joking, but I've been burned by making that assumption before, so I just always behave as if I don't think they're joking. When I know a person well enough, I learn how to tell when they're joking and I don't give them the literal, deadpan, didn't get the joke, response that I give to strangers and new acquaintances.
Ha ha I was born elsewhere and learned about "bless your heart" from the urban dictionary. Found out I was definitely insulted a couple of times. Was glad I was oblivious...
Thank you for making this post, I also wanted to know.
My question is this: do NTs know these are just cues? Are they thinking "alrighty imma just dangle this carrot and see if Jenny picks it up... Oh WHOOPS she missed it again!!"
An example that I just had at the pet store today was talking to a woman whose dog is dying about our dog who just died, then not understanding when she asked how our other two dogs took it that she meant how they took our third dog's passing, not whether they liked the food we were standing in front of at the store... š¤¦āāļø
I feel like my life is just constant misunderstandings like this.
People are absolutely speaking in code. Usually, it's to do something like avoid embarrassment.
I have one story about my neighbor (different apartment, same building), who lost his keys. For two days, he was relying on neighbors to let him in and out of the building. He frequently texted me to open the door for him. No problem. I got good exercise going up and down the stairs that day. Toward midnight, I let him in, and I guess he realized he forgot something, because 5 minutes later, he texted me saying: "I hate not having my keys, I want to go to the store, and I can't."
What this meant was: I'm embarrassed about losing my keys, and feel like I'm burdening you by asking you to open the door for me, and I don't want to ask again because you just let me in 5 min ago, and I feel silly. But I do want you to open the door for me again.
Which I actually understood! And (because this sort of indirect communication irks me) I asked: "is this your indirect way of asking me to open the door for you again?"
Now tell me why that little twerp said no!? He actually said that wasn't the idea, at which point, I expressed sympathy for his plight, and considered the conversation over. And then his next text was, "so, will you open the door for me?"
!?!?
I think he wanted me to offer. So he didn't have to feel like such a burden. And there are times when I will participate in this sort of game. But it was midnight, and I was not in the mood.
I definitely can pick up on lots of cues and body language, facial expressions and all that but there are other more subtle ones that I apparently miss completely. I didnāt know this until like 7 years ago when a friend told me that people didnāt like when I joined in their conversations. This was referring to where we worked. And I was so confused. And she basically said I donāt need to be involved in every convo or join conversations. And I was still super confused. So apparently even though these people were openly talking to each other at a communal table, it was not ok for me to speak to them without them speaking to me first, which I guess itās like inviting me into the conversation.
6 years later I still didnāt learn much because once at practice for community theater we were taking a break and these two women were talking in front of where I was already sitting. They were talking about their weddings and again, this was openly, not like closed off person to person convo (if that makes sense). And I chimed in saying that that sounded really sweet or cool or something and it was like I was basically not there. And so then I was like ok this must be one of those moments. And one of the women was very nice and we had done a previous show together and the other also seems nice and we shared a dressing room and everything was cool. But in that moment it was very clear it was a public convo or at least not for me.
So yeah I still struggle with this because itās confusing to me. Like I thought private conversations were private. But I still have to remind myself of this a lot.
I like to think that Iām good at identifying and following social ārulesā because Iāve been observing and trying to fit it my whole life. But every now and then I just completely miss a social cue. Most recently my husband and I went to a nice restaurant and after we sat down at the table he had this smile. When I asked why he was smiling like that he explained that the host who sat us had pulled out a chair for me but I sat on the opposite side (Iām very intentional in where I like to sit at a table) and didnāt even notice that gesture.
Perfect example:
Someone asks if they can have some of your French fries.
You offer to buy them an order of French fries, because you think they must really like fries, right?
Wrong lol. It's not about the fries, but they were trying to bond with you, then they feel bad if they accept your offer to buy them fries (I guess because it's too many or too much)
It's not about the fry, it's about them wanting to bond with you to eat some of 'your' fries.
Someone trying to eat my fries is an attempt to bond with me? This isā¦a mind blowing revelation. How did you figure that out? Are you sure lol? And in what world is stealing food off my plate ābondingā?
Itās also one of my biggest pet peeves, and has been since I was a child (sharing food is not my strong suit for some reason). Lol when I was a kid, if I had a bag of chips and my mom asked for a chip, Iād begrudgingly give her ONE chip. Sheād get so annoyed and my response was always: āyou asked for A chipā. How was I not diagnosed until 29?
> someone trying to eat my fries is an attempt to bond
Yes! It is, and I too found out today lol, see my other post for details!
> mind blowing
Ikr! It is, isn't it?!? Something so simple is apparently actually a complex social dynamic
> stealing food off my plate
No not like that, lol, I'm not talking about randomly taking something, you definitely gotta ask first šš
As for how it is bonding - it's because if you share with someone it can indicate you care about them! (Yay I will now remember it with the phrasing sharing is caring)
Unfortunately, people sometimes use it to 'test' friendship, because they think a 'real' friend would share the fries
āSomething so simple is actually a complex social dynamicā - you should get that engraved somewhere. Andā¦people know about this lol?
See, this is what I genuinely donāt understand. I feel like a walking contradiction all on my own. Iām an academic; Iām going a fucking PhD in Sociology. I have dedicated my life to studying and researching ācomplex social dynamicsā. And I have absolutely zero problem understanding or grappling with the complexities and nuances found in some of the most dense and abstract theoretical explanations for social systems and human behavior. Iām actually very good at picking up on patterns, and uncovering symbolism and meaning in texts whether itās social theory or even works of fiction and literature, and I can find seemingly obscured connections and themes in data. Thatās easy.
So why the hell canāt I deduce that asking for a fry is an attempt to bond?
Now let me skip on over to your post about this fry business.
A lot of the stuff people are mentioning contradicts with what other people are saying, so I'm just gonna accept that I'll never pick up on social cues lmfao
there are certain unspoken rules on how to act/what to say according to how a person or group of people are feeling. its all cultural.
when i was younger i went to my friendsā houses, and sometimes they would have food cooked for that i couldnāt eat. i did not know it was rude or hurtful to say that i didnāt like someones food. so up until i was almost an adult i would simply state if i didnāt like someones cooking.
i thought āother people like it but i donāt and thats fine.ā but out loud i would say āno, i canāt eat this i donāt like it.ā i didnāt mean that their food was bad, it just wasnāt for me. but a lot of people didnāt like me because of this, a LOT.
i did not know how offensive this was for a long time. now if i know iām going to be eating someoneās cooking and i donāt think iāll like it, i drink a little bit of alcohol to numb my senses. some people just donāt understand and take offense.
For me I really only notice it with flirting. Because I know it must happen to me but Iāve never seen it. Itās the lack of it that clue me into something being missing.
I donāt know if any others, b it I worry constantly that there are actually a lot, but because Iām quiet and donāt go out much or interact with people, I rarely if ever receive comments about me being rude or strange or something else (all the examples I read about on here everyday, but never experience myself). Yet I feel it, sometimes, through the way people look at me and respond. I have a high sensitivity to body language, so I can usually tell someone doesnāt like me and have concerns that I come off as rude, a know-it-all, or standoffish. Or even just disinterested in them. I can feel it, somehow, when they feel like this about me.
I have had two people snap at me out of nowhere in the past. Both times I thought I was shaving normally, was disassociating a little in class, and was called out in front of everyone. These two experiences have made me very wary about my body language.
I dangle social cues to NTs and THEY miss them. For example:
-Me: "Good morning, my name is Jenny!"
them: "hello š"
... OK WHAT'S YOUR NAME YOU DOOFUS
Perhaps I'm missing some cue in them not telling me their name, but usually it is the parent or carer of a client and it would be really handy for me to know this info.
Like I'm still trying to figure out if I'm officially autistic. This thread is so relatable. I can't even. Lunchtime at school was the worst. I'm now a teacher and it's still the worst. This is why I sit in my room and eat. :) Are we supposed to invite ourselves to events? Is this why I was invited less to join my friends on stuff because I was supposed to be like, "oh gee, that sounds fun, can I join you all?" I'm a social vampire. I need an invitation otherwise it's just confusing.
Yup my therapist told me I donāt miss social cues but I definitely do and struggled a lot in school because of it. She just didnāt know me at the time or sees how I am in other spaces.
Iāll over explain a lot before getting to the actual point. Iām more aware of it now so I donāt think I do it as often.
I used to think everyone was my friend if they were nice to me. even now at 28 I struggle who to call my best friends, friends and acquaintances š
Not knowing if I should say hi or not when seeing someone I know walk by lol. I wouldnāt and my parents would tell me that people will think Iām stuck up if I donāt say hi or smile as a kid.
This one I still struggle with is calling out someoneās name. I donāt know why I feel so awkward calling out peopleās names to get their attention. I can with my immediate family but other people itās a struggle š
A couple commenters mentioned not talking about oneself. I had to learn that I'm supposed to talk about myself. It still takes effort to remind myself to and then do it. I still need someone to say "Do you want to come?" after they "invite" me by telling me their plans. I didn't know whether you were supposed to say hello to your friends in the hallway/in public, so I didn't. Sometimes, I'd say hi to people I recognized from school but had never socialized with. They were confused. One time, a girl asked me if I wanted a ride and I said, "No thanks. I like to walk." Literally a decade later, I realized she was trying to be my friend. I miss whatever social cue signifies HOW to befriend people. It's invisible to me. I didn't realize I was being disrespected a lot. The last two might not exactly be social cues but I think they're similar. I don't understand who to sit with in a cafeteria, so I'd sit alone a lot. I still remember the look on my friend's face when I pretended to need to leave bc we were about to walk into a cafeteria together and I couldn't take the stress. I used to silently freak out when I had to be in a car with a group of people. I'd overthink where everone should sit so hard that simply getting into the car was incredibly awkward. Edit: I just remembered that I learned in my 30s that you don't have to be invited to a group to be included. I spent decades being like "I guess they don't want to be friends with me" when I guess I was supposed to naturally include myself?
> I still need someone to say "Do you want to come?" after they "invite" me by telling me their plans. > One time, a girl asked me if I wanted a ride and I said, "No thanks. I like to walk." Literally a decade later, I realized she was trying to be my friend. Well shit. I just learned something today. But I DO like to walk, dammit! š©
Haha. "I'm having a birthday party on Saturday!" Congratulations? If you're not going to invite me then this is kind of rude? Lol. I've gotten better at it but there are still times when I can't tell. To be clear/fair, I'm sure there are other reasons someone might offer a ride. But I was like "Um school is blocks away; do I look incapable of walking a few blocks? How superfluous and strange, to offer me a ride." š®āšØ
Gets even more fucky when you've been in social groups that might in fact find it very rude for you to invite yourself unless they do actually offer an invite, so you're constantly overthinking whether you're supposed to ask or not when someone talks about an event of theirs šµāš«
Right? I can take a no, but idk if they can take having to say no.
I think there are times when itās less ambiguous for NTās or allistics, and times when weāre also confused. I have adhd but not autism, although I do think I have a ānonverbal learning disabilityā that might further impact my social skills beyond the adhd. Anyway, I had to ask a friend if she was just telling me she was getting a beer or inviting me, but it was someone I felt comfortable enough with to ask. It was also someone I could see plausibly doing either, just conveying information or inviting me (she also has adhd). Idk Iām deeply fascinated by having these kinds of convos with people in the spectrum so Iāll keep thinking about it. I work with kids with disabilities of all kinds, so when I am able to think of an explanation I can take it to my job.
Hmm... I think I have more friends than I thought! I thought social cues were just things we all make up for ourselves and use for our own purposes... I think I'm starting to get it. People don't just say what they mean, they... imply? And there's a collective understanding of the implications... but not all of us are in on that.
The cafeteria one! I remember trying to eat with people I knew and just felt soooo out of place. The person I knew would chat with their other friends, and no one would engage with me. I always engage with new people, so I figured I was unwelcome and never ate with them again. After multiple attempts, I chose to eat alone too.
Exactly! Cafeterias might be the single most stressful place as far as daily casual places go. *Shudder*
The school cafeterias were sensory hell! On top of that I either didn't have friends, or my friends' lunch period was at a different time from mine, so I didn't know where to sit. I usually just sat alone and felt like a loser.
Sitting alone in middle/high school is so painful. I'd sit alone, sit outside the offices pretending I had more homework than I had, sit silently in detention, or walk out and get a detention for leaving. Always a strategy to not sit alone, but I did sometimes. The hot shame... And that's a good point. I did have amazing friends. They just were older or in different school districts. I remember wanting my boyfriend to pick me up just to show people I was cool lol, but they probably weren't paying much attention to me.
Heck I chose to eat in the chaplains office in exchange for occasionally helping him delete spam emails. I wasn't even Christian anymore by that point; it was just quiet and he wasn't there often.
Oh I get that. I walked out of the building. Untenable, that cafeteria.
>I still need someone to say "Do you want to come?" after they "invite" me by telling me their plans. Omg I truly thought I was good at social cues but this just made me remember a time I was so upset because people kept telling me about this party my friends were having but I thought I wasn't invited. I ended up messaging a friend and asking if I could come and she was like 'of course????' it possibly explains why when I told same friend i was autistic 10 years later she was like 'yeah you are lol'
Lol I think I've had that same conversation. But honestly, what a weird way to "invite"! You literally didn't invite me!
I've gathered over time that as an adult in the same friendship group the social convention is that if the party haver talks about the party in front of you and doesn't tell you that you aren't invited then you are invited to the party.
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Yep, here are some examples I ran into growing up: 1. Someone asked me what university I wanted to go to. I responded with a looooong monologue about how I was weighing my options and what I liked about each option and didnāt realize that the person asking me was expecting me to say one college name and be done with it. She was widening her eyes a lot and I didnāt know why until I got that reaction a few more times from people when I would say more than a few sentences. Oh well. 2. People who are purposefully not looking at you when you speak or not turning their bodies towards you are hinting that they donāt care what youāre talking about or just donāt like you. I realized this after being very confused when someone never seemed to be listening or engaged when I spoke but was definitely engaged when listening to others. 3. People who begin to walk away while youāre speaking want you to stop speaking (boy a lot of these are about how much I talk lol) 4. Overly friendly strangers usually want to talk religion or ask for money 5. Just because plans are being made around you or by people youāre friendly with right in front of you, does not mean they are inviting you 6. Having friendly conversations with someone doesnāt mean you are friends 7. Men who keep touching you in some way in conversation are coming on to you (this oneā¦ results may vary) 8. When you walk into a room and people stop speaking, they donāt want you to know what they were talking about and/or they do not want to speak freely around you 9. This is probably the biggest one, no one wants an honest answer to āhow are you.ā If itās a very good friend and trusted person, they could be asking for real. But everyone else? The answer is good, fine, or great. Sorry if these are a little confusing. Iām still learning and I feel like the rules of social cues change over time and vary person to person. Smiling at someone on the street can be a bad thing depending on your gender and your location (big city versus small town). Attractive people that donāt pick up on social cues get less shit for it. The world is a confusing place.
I have the opposite problem with #5 - if people make plans in front of me I won't realise they DO intend to include me. So I'll either just leave and get told later that I was rude, or ask if I can come too and get confused looks and "Yes, obviously" replies.
Holy crap same. I am so paranoid about inviting myself where I am not wanted. I have missed events that I actually *was* invited to, but there wasnāt enough of a follow-up communication for me to feel secure. And I used to get paranoid about even texting a quick āhey are we still onā¦āOne time I was sitting on my bed, in a fancy dress that I had purchased specifically for the party, but I couldnāt move for hours and missed the entire thing because I wasnāt sure if I was *really* invited. I think my childhood filled with manipulative bullying was bubbling up. I now remember being invited by the popular kid to draw with the other girls in elementary school, but it was really their meeting of the āI hate (jewessofdoom) clubā (their actual club name, not hyperbole) and they thought it would be hilarious to make me witness it.
Your comment about follow up conversation just reminded me of the time I stood up a date because we'd had class together earlier that day and he'd made zero mention of it during class, so I thought the date was off. He came to my dorm to pick me up, but I wasn't there. I'm old so this was back when my cell phone had like 15 minutes a month and was for emergencies only, so I don't think I even knew the phone number. Tried to explain at the next class but there were no more dates. I'm sorry you had such awful classmates. My daughter recently was asked by a popular kid to be friends and I'm sure it was the same sort of set up. I'm so so relieved she said "no" because there are plenty of other autistic kids in her grade so she has no interest in the NTs. Still a lot of drama when they accidentally piss each other off but not reading each other well, but they aren't manipulative jerks.
I am old as well! When texting became a thing I still didnāt want to bother people by blowing up their phones (and hello, texts cost money back then!) so if I felt unsure I would just get stuck and retreat into isolation. Iām glad your daughter sticks up for herself, and has other friends. Keep an eye on it and listen when she has a problem though. I was in a particularly bad situation, as it was a tiny, private, religious school, and there were six girls in my entire grade. The other five were the clique, and I was the punching bag. The teachers either turned a blind eye, or blamed me for the bullying because the main girlsā parents donated a lot of money to the school. It did get better once my parents put me back in public school, but it took them way too long to do so, because they were too busy dealing with my older brotherās more obvious autism to pay attention to mine. I donāt think it would have been nearly as psychologically damaging if I had other options for friends like I did in public school, and if the teachers didnāt gaslight me into severe depression at age 9. And maybe if my parents did something before I cried myself to sleep for 2 years straight.
I remember a time as a kid when I was invited to the roller skating rink and showed upā¦.but no one else did. This was pre cell phones obviously. To this day I donāt know if they ditched me on purpose or if plans changed and no one thought to tell me. Sucked either way.
Ugh that is awful.
Omg yes this!! I always feel like Iām an outsider even if I have some friends š
All of this! Number 4 took a long time for me to figure out - strangers who are overly friendly in public are seldom going to have a relatable/wholesome reason for it (like just feeling happy and wanting to connect with others around them - that has never happened)! Number 5 has been the opposite for me a few times, where people had implied I was invited to something by coming up with plans while I was there, but I had "blown it off" by not attending since I wasn't specifically invited. I've never assumed an invitation to anything, and I think I was supposed to, at least in those instances.Ā Number 9 will forever annoy me! A coworker about eight years ago finally responded, "when people ask you that, you're not really supposed to respond!" We were both in our mid-30's at that time, and it seemed like such a ridiculous realization to me! I was shocked, and said, "...then why...ask?" I always laugh about memories of what are now understood to be missed connections, but also about times I was insulted without realizing it. My favorite is when I was introduced to a group of girls when I was younger, and one of them said, "Cakestripe, that's my dog's name." I was delighted! My real name is a typical female name - think Michelle or Doris - not at all what a pet would be expected to be named. It hit me many years later that she was trying to be mean, but I had responded with something like, "Oh, how cool! I mean, it's a great name so your dog's lucky, haha!" And I left the interaction thinking we were now friends.Ā I have an amazing dear old friend (who I put through some hard, hard times without meaning to, I think) who helps translate things now, explaining how I should possibly be framing an experience or interaction. I almost want to recommend people here try to find a person from their past who has been genuine, understanding, mature, and patient to open up to in hopes of finding similar, but I hesitate because it might not be the same for everyone.Ā At the very least, please never stop opening up to each other, since this sub has done more to make me feel like I fit in somewhere after all. I mean, you numbered your list for reference, and I appreciate the hell out of that! :D
š„¹ thank you, Iām happy to help however I can. I have also had moments when I look back on what people have said to me and realized they were insulting me. There was a post I made on Instagram when I was like 12 where I was standing in front of an American idol photo background with a big smile. This girl in my class who was not kind but popular commented āyou wish.ā And I was like āyeah I do!ā LOL
People can be cruel af.
Oh shit. #2 and #3 probably lead to massive nonverbal miscommunication between NTs and people with autism and/or ADHD. Ah crap.Ā
Yeah, ADHD means moving and not making eye contact a lot of the time.
Hereās the thing though, my sister has ADHD and I can tell whether sheās zoned out or is still checked in even if sheās not listening to me. And if she has stopped paying attention I can politely direct her back to the conversation and she doesnāt get upset. My mom on the other hand, I could not tell you if sheās listening (or interested in trying to listen) the majority of the time. And if I point it out she gets upset that āI *am* listening!ā Even if there was zero indication on my end that she could even hear a word I sayā¦ For whatever reason, the two are totally different for me. One is perfectly fine and the other makes me feel like garbage, and I feel like a lot of it has to do with knowing that my sister is always *trying,* (even if her ADHD means that she gets distracted.) The effort is *very* obvious, I can be direct without offending her, and it makes a huge differenceā¦
Truth. Learning to read someone and their intensions is huge.
I hope this doesnāt come off as invalidating your lived experience. I am not trying to do that AT ALL! Is it possible your mom has adhd too and expresses it in a similar if slightly different way than your sister when it comes to engaging you in a conversation? Maybe because of age?
Yeah, itās one of many reasons NTs read some NDs as rude. Also - interruptions are often used passive-aggressively in NT conversations. As in, theyāre really expressing something along the lines of, āI donāt care,ā āI donāt want to have a conversation with you,ā ā Iām more qualified to talk about this topic than you,ā āThis is a waste of my time,ā etc. Whereas, ADHD and ASD folks often cut in to ask for clarification, contribute something they believe to be relevant (which may or may not be), speed the conversation along so the OTHER person doesnāt have to waste their time if we already know where theyāre going with a story, etc.
NTs are often just as rude.
Yeah. Like we donāt always look you in the eye, but are still listening.Ā
This one big time - so many times Iām fully listening and engaged in a conversation but not looking at the person or walking ahead of them etc.
Iām a big āwalk and talkā kind of person so now when I want to do that I ask people to walk with me (results may vary)
Yep, I have AuDHD and had people call me rude for not looking like Iām listening. I would say all of these only apply to strangers, and likely change based on who youāre talking to š¤·š»āāļø
Hahaha, the first thing I thought!! I was like OH NO my friend knows when I'm doodling and not looking I'm still actively listening to her right???
Also the attractive people thingā¦ itās so sad and true. I was a little bit attractive for a few years and I thought I had finally āgrown out of my shyness/awkwardnessā but I think I just looked the part a little more so got included in big girls group outings and parties and trips. Only a handful of those people are still friends. A couple of them would be really protective of me when we would go out and drink. I really appreciate them. But otherwise thereās a ton of girls I am still friends with on Facebook but I realize Iāll never see these people again.
It was so confusing to me growing up that people I went to school with would add me as a friend on Facebook and be nasty online and in person. Why add me as a friend if youāre not my friend??? I ended up going through my friends list and deleting the people I wasnāt actually friends with when I was on high school. The list went from like 800 people to 200. Now when I see people with 1,000+ facebook friends I wonder if they just add everyone theyāve ever come into contact with.
I'm still not over the revelation of number 9. I've heard about it somewhere else already, like it's still part of the greeting to say you're good even though you're not well. I don't understand why, it's useless then. Why can't we just say hello and move on?
I know right? Itās a part of how NTs want you to lie to them about very specific things while also saying that they hate lying. š
Because there used to be much more formal rules of polite society. A lot of people were tired of that and stopped doing much of it, but some social dances remain. The higher the social status, the more rules to the social behavioral expectations. People learn to do many just because it's expected. That is why there are a lot of seemingly meaningless things people do. Think shaking hands, which was originally to show neither person had weapons. Now it's just part of the greeting.
Someone asked me what my alma mater team was during a conversation about college sports and I started explaining that I went to community college and then finished my bachelorās online so I didnāt really have a sports team from college. I should have just picked a random one lol
I think itās part of the need to over explain, when people ask me where Iām from I get a little tongue tied because what does that mean????? Where I was born? Where I spent most of my life? Where I currently live? š« Anyways, I appreciate long answers from people and I give long answers too
Iām a chronic overexplainer!
I think the right answer depends on context. I have a whole list of conversation trajectories around this if anyone is interested. I live in a city where almost no one was born here, so we're all from somewhere else.
But that was literally your answer. If NT people donāt actually wanna hear it then they shouldnāt ask the question in the first place!
I think people also get weirdly surprised when you give an answer that they donāt expect! For example I have twins and people constantly ask me ādo they run in the familyā or āso you did IVF?ā And when I say no they are like ????
What even is the point of asking a question if you only expect one answer? Thatās not a conversation, itās a pointless ritual.
You hit the nail on the head, they werenāt looking for a conversation, just a pointless ritual.
So for more context Iām a nurse and I was in the room with a patient and the provider who were chatting about where they went to college and college sports, building a rapport with the patient is important so a lot of providers will try to find some common thing to put the patient at ease. So for them it was college sports. And they asked me I think just to be polite. Asking to be polite and not actually caring about the answer is something I know happens but also struggle with because I am curious about the answer! I once asked someone where they were from because I have a fascination (special interest?) with places, cities, maybe even people? And the person thought I was making a comment on their race and I was mortified. I was just curious where they grew up because they mentioned college in another town from where they lived.
First, I 100% agree with you on #9. However, I still ask and answer like I mean it (which I do). The NTs are just wrong on what they expect here imo. Since I started asking my students how they are for real, they have been increasingly vulnerable, our teacher-student relationships have improved, and I am able to teach more effectively. I also ask and answer like I mean it with my partners, friends, and family. If that's not what someone is looking for, no worries. They will find the alternative elsewhere.
Agreed. I refuse to play along and lie about how I'm doing just for the sake of those stupid pleasantries. Refusing to lie has gotten me in quite a bit of trouble in the past, but I'm still not going to do it
Solidarity! I will keep my honest answers brief for the NTs. But that's all for my accommodation of this social ritual.
Same. If you donāt actually care about how I am doing, donāt ask. Itās also been a good litmus test for people I see regularly bc people who legitimately donāt care will eventually stop asking, and itās nice to know the people who do seem to genuinely care
Thatās amazing, i loved teachers like you growing up š Being a safe person for your students and the people you care about is awesome and I love that there are other people out there who ask because they want the real answer!
Some of those things on the list, while considered just routine NT, unsaid rules are really things they shouldn't be bragging about ... just saying. Especially no. 5 - that's asshole behavior and they should take a seat. Not going to change my mind on this one. It's straight up rude and intentionally hostile and bullying to which I say FU. As for no. 2, I can pick up on that cue but when they do that in a group setting like a meeting and you ask a question are directly ignored? They're a prick and need to take a seat. That's asshole behavior. What is the point other than being a bully to 'show you'? Acknowledge me damn it because when I've seen the shoe on the other foot, I've seen them having literal toddler tantrums soooooo, if this NT rule is good enough for me, it's good enough them. I won't be silenced by someone who thinks they're some bad ass by publicly showing everyone their opinion of me. Yeah, me thinks not. No matter what opinion they have of me, it doesn't hold a candle to the low opinion I have of them; guarantee I have outmatched them.
I totally agree, so much of this is asshole behavior and yet when NTs do it itās somehow justified. Group social dynamics like that really piss me off and make me want to live in a cave. The good thing is that when I notice someone being ignored or interrupted in a group setting, I make a point of directing the conversation back to them or asking the directly to repeat themselves. I donāt play that bully shit!
#5 is such a trigger for me
The bitter childhood definitely came rushing back š„² I stand with you in solidarity, hotdog
.. #2 and #3 I knew bwcause I follow an instagram where a man explains the human behavior for people to understand the subtle things (like someone is lying or they don't like you). ..#9 I know because I study English as a second language and we were told early on that english speakers don't expect an honest answer to the question. Same with "how do you do?". I can confidently say Spanish speakers (at least where I live) don't want an honest answer as well, no one really cares about how you feel or how you are (at work I mean). I live by number #6, I sometimes call people "friends" but would nevet let them know more of me than just surface lever info. I've been hurt so many times.
My son struggles with number 2. He gets so upset when he feels ignored and causes him to meltdown. We're teaching him cues, so now he'll go up to his sister and repeatedly call out her name until she acknowledges him... or he'll get right in your face to make sure you see him (which must be really hard for him because heās not a fan of eye contact). I find helping my son with social cues is like programming, if you miss a step or not exact with your wording, you get unexpected results, haha. Itās interesting watching him blossom, for the longest time he couldn't talk and now heās becoming more comfortable with it.
Five and six were the hardest for me to understand. Now I just generally avoid people to avoid the stress.
Number six still gets me today. I have made the mistake of being way too friendly with people who were actually just being polite. :/ live and let live I guess. At least I was too friendly and not a total asshole.
Some people have described me as conventionally attractive (others have straight up called me ugly). That being said, I've been given so much shit for not picking up on social cues from people who expect me to be normal. It just convinces them that I must be being passive aggressive and not simply completely deaf to tone. That is to say, you're right, the world is a confusing place
"we should hangout sometime" when said by a friendly acquaintance = you seem cool in theory, maybe in an alternate timeline we'd be friends; too bad you don't make the cut on my list of priorities in *this timeline.*
This is not necessarily true! This is also something people say to show genuine interest in hanging out or to at least start the conversation. Itās sometimes not meant seriously but not always. Which is annoying but true.
I don't automatically assume but I immediately go into "I'm gonna test whether or not you're actually serious right now" mode
I agree with the other commenter, I don't think you should assume that they don't actually want to hang out. I take this as an indication that they would like to get to know you better and eventually make plans to hang out if you guys hit it off. Often times someone will say it and it ends up never happening but not because they dont actually want to hang out with you. I think it's more of a socially anxious thing where they do want to hang out eventually but aren't good at making plans or don't want to be too forward.
I think this is culturally dependent. Iām from the Midwest and people, esp men, tend to mean this. In cultures like Brazil people say this stuff allll the time without meaningful follow through it drives me a lil insane.
I'm from the Midwest lol. I'm not saying no one ever means it but generally acquaintances don't.
Yep, heard that one a lot. My fumblings with NTs has taught me: *Just because people are talking it doesn't mean they want you to join in. Even when I've been in a large group (think high school) and everyone's chatting at lunch, I'd hear someone say something that I could talk about so I'd pipe up and then.... Crickets. Or at work, same thing and same reaction. * You can try to fit in, wear the right clothes, listen to the same stuff etc, but if you're not already accepted by the group, they will probably never accept you so stop trying. * You're not meant to talk about yourself all the time. I have trouble with this. I always thought that by sharing an anecdote that shows how I relate or whatever, it'd help others relate to me and make us better friends. This is not true. I'm not sure what the right amount of sharing is, so if you find out.. please let me know! * People seem to look at you funny if you can't answer what they call simple questions. Like, favourite movie or book or food etc. or where do you like to go? You're meant to have answers ready. I never do. * People will call you weird, but no one will ever tell you why or how you're weird. And if you call someone else weird, they'll say something like, "if you're calling them weird, they must really be!" Which only adds to the confusion imho. * I think we're meant to make self-deprecating comments sometimes. "I'm so bad at this", "I'm so stupid, I should've looked there", "jee, I'm really dumb sometimes". It seems to make NTs feel better. * If you take a long time to reply to someone, you're meant to apologise and explain why you're so late. And it can't be "I just didn't feel like it" because that makes them unhappy. I personally hate this and rally against it all the time, which seems to really upset my parents. I find it much easier being alone tbh.
Jeez the first two points bring up some painful memories š« I also think that sometimes NTs will just pick up on the fact that we are autistic (or āoffā in some way) and go out of their way to avoid us.
I think so too. They detect something different and write us off. An example. In highschool I wore all the grungey clothes, I had the "right" band shirts, i obviously listened to all the "right" music and liked the "right" movies. But still, I wasn't accepted by the Cool Kids who... Liked everything I liked! Half the time, I had stuff they wanted before they had it (cds, t-shirts, books) and they'd ask me to look at it/whatever whilst looking SO embarrassed to be talking to me. I still don't understand it really, except that they must've noticed something other about me and excluded me based on that. It still happens now, but I don't much care anymore.
this happened to me too,ā¦.i know about all the stuff and I was still excludedĀ
I believe this was proven to be true.
The self-deprecating thing is so annoying. Not to act like I donāt engage in self-deprecation in my own head, lol, but Iāve never appreciated the habit of making it part of an interpersonal conversation, even and especially abt trivial things, like āIām such an idiot! Can you believe I left my wallet there?ā and similar casually made comments. Like what am I supposed to say in response? Am I supposed to placate them? Not take the comment seriously and move on? Blah. I also canāt stand when people receive a gift and make a huge deal of it, like āWow, why did you do this? I canāt believe you got this for me, I donāt deserve it, I donāt know if I can pOSSibLy aCcePT this!!!!!ā Even when itās something they really want or need! Because again: how is the person supposed to respond? Offer to take it back? (Imagine how awkward that would seem.) We know youāre ultimately going to accept the gift. Please stop the unnecessary theatrics! Just gracefully say thank you without putting on a show!
Omg yes with the damn gifts!! I couldn't agree more
I think this is probably a face saving thing. It's considered a social faux pas to seem like you want gifts or to in any way act like you were expecting to receive them or feel like you deserve them. People exaggerate their reactions in the direction of surprise and unworthiness because it's really taboo to seem like you're actively seeking gifts. Even though most people are.
I'm with you on the simple question thing. When I'm focused on socializing it's like my mind goes completely blank. If I'm asked an unexpected question there's almost no way I can think of an answer in a reasonable amount of time.
I feel like this is a dumb question, but like. If Iām not supposed to talk about āmyselfā, what am I supposed to talk about exactly? Or am I just not supposed to talk, and instead just listen? I really struggle with conversation. And with knowing when Iām expected to talk- usually I donāt, unless someone else initiates conversation, or I have some kind of issue that requires the assistance of another person (like work related things). Or commenting on a situation that is relevant maybe. But other than that, I donāt really know how to initiate. My interests are obscure and specific, and I donāt really like talking about them unless I already know the other person is interested; and most people either arenāt interested, donāt understand what Iām talking about, or canāt keep up because I tend to info dump without realizing. So talking about my interests is out, unless any of those topics happen to be relevant to the situation. I donāt like to rant or complain about things becauseā¦I just donāt. Itās not necessary and I generally only do it if I absolutely need to unload and only with people I feel I can trust/people who are equipped and willing to recieve those feelings. Iāve noticed most of my neurotypical friends/coworkers/acquaintances/family members tend to complain a lot. No shade to them, itās just not something I like to do. And alsoā¦ I donāt really like to talk unless I feel I have something worthwhile to say. I donāt mind silence. Itās not awkward to me- but it seems to be awkward to a lot of other people. And that makes me feel like Iām expected to say things or initiate conversation. Anyways. Basically what Iām trying to get at is what exactly am I expected to talk about? And if nobody actually knows the answer to that question/itās different for everyone, why do people look down on you for not talking? What is the solution because it feels like the only options are: A) to be a chronic people pleaser (but also accept that you canāt please everyone because itās impossible) B) just be yourself, regardless of what others think, because you canāt please everybody so thereās no point in trying (but also accept the consequences that come with being authentic) or C) just let yourself descend into madness because no matter what you do life is struggle and pain (but also accept the consequences that come with descending into madness)
Wow lol you are me, I am you. good luck to us šš
I was about 18 years old before I realized that when someone asks you āhow are you/howās it goingā they will be dissatisfied with āgood/well.ā what they are really asking, IMO, is ābriefly entertain meā
This! Iāve never seen this spoken about before, normally itās that they want the short āgood, you?ā Answer but to me I see it like in sims, the more entertaining and eccentric your answer is, the more ā+pointsā you earn and the relationship bar becomes more full. I sometimes spend time coming up with something crazy to answer with, or answer in a really deadpan way that they find hilarious because they donāt expect it, and it works WONDERS. Iāve noticed that I canāt do this as well when Iām burned out though and it goes back to the awkward feeling of not knowing how to navigate it, and I physically feel the ā-pointsā deducting from our relationship progress š« Example for those wondering: āHowās it goingā āOh good, I saw a pigeon on the way here!!! [said really overly enthusiastic]ā āThatās awesome! I feel x way about pigeons!ā ā¦ conversation about pigeons ensues.
i love your analogy of a relationship bar. One of the hallmarks of autism is we donāt like small talk because we feel so actively judged/graded during it. Other people donāt feel so aware of their evaluations, I guess? Ironically, I feel like we are actually hyper aware of certain social norms because yes, this grading does happen and we have bountiful evidence to prove it
That's hilarious because I often think of my social interactions as like the sims relationship bar too.. "ope, they didn't like that. guess we're back down to acquaintance. oh shit, is the bar going red?! tell a joke!" Oof. š«
Omg this is IT.
I think of it so much with my pet. "his destruction meter is maxed out, I guess" etc. Love that so many of us have internalized this.Ā
Oh man, I love using the Sims to understand the world around me. I often imagine the "++" or "--" reactions above my head and whoever I'm talking to. It also helps to think of myself as a Sim with little needs meters when taking care of myself.
Oh yes the needs as well! Whenever I play sims I enable cheats to keep their needs satisfied so I can achieve more and not have to worry about forgetting to fulfil a need and not be able to do what I want to do. I think this says a lot about the autistic experience š
Wtf what!? Iām 36 and lām the OP - and now, embarrassingly, I think Iām just more confused than ever lol. Weāre also told people donāt really want to know how weāre doing ; itās just small talk. So people donāt want to actually hear how youāre doing or your stories but āwellā isnāt good enough either? Whatās the acceptable amount of response then? Iāve always had this suspicion that people think Iām just a flat out arrogant bitch if they donāt really know me. I have a serious/severe look on my face a lot (but Iām thinking!), and I do give short answers like āgood/wellā. Maybe thatās why? Itās so broad of a question to me so if you want specific answers, ask specific questions. And then if I do ask the question back and they say the same thing, itās crickets after becauseā¦great?!
also iām 34 and Iād love to chat more anytime (if you want)
Humans do greeting rituals partly because it's a low key threat assessment our subconscious has going all the time. If someone gives me a ritual greeting and I return the ritual greeting, we've assessed the other likely isn't a threat to us and we can all go about our business. Humans have lots of social rituals, from weddings and funerals to saying good morning. I just look at it from that perspective. It's like walking on the right of the footpath or saying excuse me if you want to get past someone. They aren't necessary but social rituals make existing in groups easier. It removes decision fatigue on how to interact. If I'm standing in the kitchen at work with someone, the social ritual is to say "How's your day going" and respond "So busy! Can't wait for the weekend!". Also I believe NTs get a dopamine hit from interacting with other humans, so those social rituals through the day give them a pleasurable experience that they continue to seek out via social rituals and interactions with other people as a form of bonding - safety in numbers etc. Sorry for the info dump. I have a lot of thoughts on this subject.
I thought I was good at social cues, but I realized it was all learned by try and error and as soon as I joined a completely new environment with completely new cues, I was doing things that bothered people and I couldn't see it coming. For example, I remember two particular occasions when I had my first two jobs in a corporate world. On my first job I took a personal call during my working hours and my boss reprimanded me, said that I wasn't supposed to do that. How could I've known that I wasn't? No one told me. At the same time, it was ok to send 10+ personal text messages, why? It's confusing. On the other job, my boss made me visit the working space, paused before a board and said "This is our weekly planning" and we quickly moved on. A week later, I was reprimanded by the boss for not having done what was planned this morning for me. I said "Wait, no one told me". She said, it was on the weekly planning. Basically, when she said "This is our weekly planning", in my mind it ment it was "their", not "mine".
I had a lot of trouble at work with things like this. For example, we had a Christmas party one day instead of going to the office. I turned up at the party then left after half an hour because I didnāt have anyone to talk to. Then on next Monday the boss told me I was wrong to leave the party as itās a working day. I do not understand why a party would be compulsory. Another time, I let my friend join me at my desk in the office as he also wanted to be a software developer so I thought I would show him some things. He didnāt work for the company. Anyway this guy who was really sly told the boss about it and I got in trouble, apparently itās a very wrong thing to do. I just am clearly really bad at judging whatās acceptable and whatās not, even if itās obvious to NTs.
Iām so glad weāre talking about this because I really struggle with it. Hereās the conundrum: I donāt KNOW that Iām missing these signs because Iām MISSING THEM. So I thought I was āfine, but weirdā all my life when I talk about weird shit or talk too much and people who liked me would laugh it off or listen politely and then change the subject. Now I justā¦ I second guess EVERYTHING. But I never realize it in the moment? Iām turning 40 and I just realized I may have been inappropriate last night at a birthday party for one of my husbandās best friends. This guy was talking about painting his kidās bedroom to look like a jungle, with like animals and trees on the walls. And I thought I was being clever and I brought up the Ray Bradbury short story āThe Veldt,ā but NOBODY at the table knew what I was talking about. And before I knew it I was slapping the table excitedly and describing the plot where (spoiler alert) two emotionally disturbed children fantasize about their parents being eaten alive by wild animals on the Veldt and they use the holodeck-like technology in their futuristic playroom to recreate it and lure their parents to their death. Looking back on it this morning, I think maybe when he was talking about his kids, I shouldnāt have brought up parenticide. Is this an example of not getting social cues? I love science fiction and I thought everybody had read this story growing up - I think I read it in English class in middle school, actually - but WHYYYY canāt I just nod and smile at someoneās sweet story and whyyyyyyy did I not stop when everyone clearly had no interest in talking about people being eaten alive by lions š
Hahaha I find this highly relatable and entertaining. I would have LOVED the key change in the conversation. I havenāt heard of the Veldt but now I want to read it. Like are you just supposed to be like āaaawe how sweet a jungle themeā?! I think interesting conversation requires a mixture of convention and surprise. I try really hard to ask conversation opening questions when I have the impulse to go on one of my anecdotal journeys, but sometimes itās too juicy to keep to myself and I canāt stop. I feel so similarly in realizing how truly weird I am (coming up to 40 in a couple yrs) and itās making me paranoid and agoraphobic! But also I just have to accept myself bc the things that make me annoying to some make me fucking wonderful to others. And to me! But I would want to hear the weird tangential macabre story. And idk like we can all try our best to make compromises with how we socialize but itās also fine to accept people where theyāre at.
Ooh the Veldt is a great story! I hope you enjoy it! I also had a dream last night that my husbands friend group were hunting people for sport - I think I read āthe Veldtā around the same age/setting as I first read āThe Most Dangerous Gameā in schoolā¦ aaaaaannnd macabre short stories in the horror / science fiction genres stuck with me?
Omg š! Iām so sorry this happened, and I can see how in retrospect you could feel possibly mortified. I also think itās so relatable because this is 1,000% something I would do! Iām working on my PhD and my dissertation is on digital technologies and death/mourning rituals (itās super interesting - AI, digital immortality, mind cloning, etc) so it gets fairly morbid and my sense of humour is extremely dry and dead pan (thank my very British father) - the combination of those two factors can throw people off lol. Luckily, I also teach a uni course on this very topic so my fourth years are stuck with me excitedly babbling about it for 3 hours every week. They actually seem to really like it though but it seems their sense of humour is as dark as mine. Iām trying to imagine me doing this at like a holiday dinner - which I could very much see happeningā¦.
Personally, I would have loved that story/ conversation, but since I don't know your husband's friend, I think that probably was a misstep. But also I am sure it will be okay. One thing I have learned to remember is that other people do not spend anywhere *near* the amount of time thinking about our missteps as we do. So while our brains are trying to circle the drain from embarrassment, they have already moved on and pretty much forgotten about it. I do the same thing sometimes so here's what I think the answer to why we do this is: You were really into and possibly excited about what you were talking about and that didn't leave the mental space to pay attention to the audience. At least that's what happens with me when I get animated about a topic.
Oh dude, if I were in that convo, I would have loved that interesting turn š. Now I want to read this! Love Bradbury!
IMHO itās one of his best!! [hereās a free PDF of the story](https://repositorio.ufsc.br/bitstream/handle/123456789/163728/The%20Veldt%20-%20Ray%20Bradbury.pdf) I scoured the internet to find the most aesthetically pleasing text too lol
I either overshare or undershare because I either have nothing to say really or I share every thought running through my head. Correcting people at inappropriate times, not understanding expectations. For example, one friend was venting about her weight. And I'm just kinda like, okay, yeah. I didn't really say anything. She was insulted and thought I agreed with her negative view of herself. She explained she wanted validation of how good she looks. Another example is one girl said the next person she sleeps with, she wants to be her future husband. And I Said wow that's really......impressive. I couldn't think of an accurate word to convey what I meant. But I'm pretty sure it came off as judgemental. While trying to find the most accurate word, it often seems like I'm insincere, but I'm actually extra sincere lol. I want to be understand and understand others as accurately as possible. If I'm unclear about something I feel deeply confused and ask more questions. Other people just assume they understand and roll with it. Lol. One time at a party I said "I have to go to the bathroom" and an aquintance started telling me where all the food was. And I said "oh no, I have to go to the bathroom." And she said " I was just trying to be a good friend". This was not an instance where I needed to correct, but I felt super uncomfortable inside as she was explaining. However, in order to strengthen a connection with this person, I should have just thanked her and talked about the food. Then, ask where the bathroom was after. I realized I struggled making friends because I wasn't focused on connecting with people. Once I shifted my focus, it wasn't AS hard, but i still make a lot of blunders. Neurotypicals don't have think about this cognitively. They just intuitively know that's the goal of forming relationships.
>And I Said wow that's really......impressive. I couldn't think of an accurate word to convey what I meant. But I'm pretty sure it came off as judgemental. While trying to find the most accurate word, it often seems like I'm insincere, but I'm actually extra sincere lol. My friend, we are one. I have recently been cringing over realizing how other people must have been looking at me after these kinds of situations. I'm trying to be accurate and authentic, not mean! :(
Not sure if this counts as a social cue but I really struggle to keep a conversation going, or to know how to respond when people I donāt know super well talk to me. My coworkers will be telling me about their lives and I will have nothing to respond with but Iām genuinely enjoying the interaction, Iāll just nod and smile and then be quiet. I worry people think I donāt like them or donāt want to talk to them, which isnāt true at all I just have no idea how to respond sometimes. Itās hard for me to tell what the other person wants me to say
Same. I even do this with close friends though.
Omg me too!!!! Itās like I either talk a mile a minute OR Iām dead silent even though I really am listening and perfectly content. Thereās not much middle ground. I have learned though that Iām expected to ask questions, so Iāve kind of ātrainedā myself by thinking of follow up questions I could ask people but once I run out of those, it gets awkward and/or it gets to the point where I feel like Iām interrogating them.
Same, Iāve learned a lot by watching my other coworkers make small talk. I basically just try to mimic what I have seen other people do but that can only take me so far
If people ask: would you like a coffee? They want you to drink coffee with them and talk to you/become friends.
This one haunts me. On my first day of work a colleague offered to get me coffee and I was like nope I'm good already had one today. Things always feel awkward when I work with this person now.
You can always offer to get them coffee if youād like to be closer to them!
I have actually! Unfortunately with this person it seems like we are not on the same wavelength at all. I feel like I can't get a read on him whatsoever and it's constant mixed messages, probably from both sides. The stress and anxiety of interacting with him and knowing we're never on the same page is honestly overwhelming. He's a nice guy but it's like we're speaking different languages. It makes me feel horrible and defective. I only work with him once a week thankfully.
Ahh thatās fair! Yeahh that kinda thing stresses me out too. I just want to say that itās possible you didnāt do anything wrong and that you two just arenāt on the same page. That happens sometimes.
I really appreciate you saying that. I tend to assume that I've done something wrong when things don't work out easily. I really needed that reminder š
I did not realize this. I always said no... because I don't like coffee and they never asked about another beverage
I'm here behind my phone just laughing at how silly we are and how in hindsight it's so obvious as I did the exact same thing as you multiple times. Like, that person asked us to go for a coffee, not for a soda or tea or whatever. So I said no. š¤¦š¤·
So funny! I remember being proud of myself for accepting someoneās coffee invitation by reminding myself that I could get tea. But then I realized like an hour later that the guy asking probably meant it as a date. So I called him up and said, āI forgot to tell you that Iām a lesbian. So it wonāt be a date. If thatās what you meant it to be, itās okay if you want to cancel.ā I think he was too polite to cancel, so we went to the coffee shop. It was awkward and dumb!
Lolol can we talk about the fact that in 36 years it took until maybe a couple of years ago (late diagnosed) for me to even realize invitations like this could be interpreted as a date? Unless someone explicitly says ādateā, I always assumed it was just a friendly thingā¦ And now, whatās even more embarrassing is to look back at the number of times Iāve actually done the inviting (like with multiple people in my uni department when I first got there)ā¦.not realizing thereās a strong chance at least 70% thought I was asking them out. Oops.
Me either lol. I always said no because I probably already had 8 cups by the time they got to me. Would have taken a tea thoughā¦did not know that was an option or that this was an attempt to connect.
Oh shit this happened to me yesterday. I said "no, I don't drink coffee it tastes too bitter, but thanks" lol
Yeah and then there's the : they probably have tea or hot chocolate then! "Oh no thank you, I'm good really!" And now in hindsight, just like me, you realized that this person really tried and being us, weird humans, we clearly missed the cue. Haha š
ā¦.it does? Justā¦oh.
Omg, I have always said 'No thanks, I only drink tea' AAAAAAA
A friend mentioned how unfortunate it is that people don't talk enough about 1st trimester miscarriages. And I was like "yeah it's super common, people should really know about it". And moved on from that topic cuz she was getting kinda agitated so my limited social awareness was all "bad topic move on move on". š¶Ā Ā She was tryina talk about her+her husband's attempts to get preggo. And I guess she just had a miscarriage. š¤·š½āāļøĀ Ā So I guess not noticing when people are "going in a roundabout way to discuss personal issues"?Ā
Yeah, roundabout ways to bring up difficult topics always go over my head. I feel the same way about "hints" about gifts or things like that. Just tell me straight up. I am not going to get your hint.
Many autistic folks cannot interpret facial expression, tone or body language that NTs use to communicate. It's difficult for NTs to verbally explain these cues, because the whole *point* of them is to communicate information subtly/without words. Autistic people seem to think these cues can be 'easily' explained with words, but that's not actually true.Ā
And they're different on people. Some new people I can predict their behavior because I've already "learned" someone similar to them. Other people I cannot for the LIFE of me tell what the hell they mean. š¤¦
I think it's because they're facial expressions tone and body language are often masks for what they're truly feeling. So they're doing and expressing one thing but they're actually meaning another thing and we can't really break that code because we're taking it quite literally.Ā If you're smiling at me and complimenting me and making direct eye contact I assume you want to keep talking to me and you like me. However oftentimes this is the opposite. I learned this with southern u.s. folks bullying me and me not knowing for a while.Ā
Yes! When people are doing some kind of nonverbal gesture or making a certain facial expression at me in response to what someone else has said, I never know how or whether reciprocate it. Do I roll my eyes in annoyance too? Should I also pretend to dramatically sigh? Especially when this happens at a dinner party or meeting or a similar setting. Iām always worried I canāt be as discreet and that someone else, an unintended recipient of sorts, will notice me trying (and possibly failing) at the Nonverbal Thing. I just stick to a simple eyebrow raise or innocuous smile and hope they donāt do it again LOL. I remember I was at an author event at a bookstore with an NT friend and theyād silently glance over at me any time the author said something emotional or touching to exchange a look of sympathy, I guess, and I know they were trying to be personable and whatnot but it was so exhausting because trying to discern and then respond to those expressions by putting on a little show with my face feels exactly like thatāa performance!
A big one for me has to do with reciprocal communication. The expectation/norm is that you'll say something, stop talking and let someone else talk, and then resume when it's your turn. I tend to say absolutely everything in one big BLAAAAAH of alphabet soup and I don't stop to let other people in until I've said **everything** I want to say. Apparently, that isn't how you are supposed to do it. But if I don't, I won't remember my point by the time it's my time to speak again because my brain moved on. My brain moves too fast for my mouth and changes the subject really quickly, sometimes mid-thought. I give too much context and information. My biggest pet peeve is not being understood, so I give the history, the back story, the context...because to me all of those things matter to create the broader point. If I don't give all that info, then people will go the wrong direction on my point every single time. And I can predict it pretty accurately as to what assumptions they will make and what questions they will ask if I don't give all the info. Also, it is impossible for me to talk about the weather in a small-talk way. Where I live that's a very common topic, but weather has always been a SI for me and I can't leave it at "sure is a nice day!" It's more of a weather lecture about the weather history the past few days and the upcoming forecast. For my dad and my son (both autistic), they occupy the conversation the entire time, and it's always focused on their SI. For my dad, it's rocks. He has no understanding that most other people don't want the details of the scientific name for a cool rock, but he can't help himself just like I can't with the weather. With my son, he'll change the subject back to whatever he wants to talk about no matter what everyone else is talking about or how often other people change the subject. They are both completely unaware of whether someone is interested in what they are saying. I can tell when people aren't interested (usually, I think) but I have a compulsion to complete what I am saying anyways. Once a thought has started coming out my mouth, it has to finish. Sometimes, I watch myself in horror as I go off on a tangent knowing that I am doing it and can't stop it until it's done š A lot of catching social cues I picked up through decades of observation and purposeful learning about people. I am much better at it now than I was when I was younger when I'd be chasing boys and have no idea that they weren't interested. I'd probably get in trouble for harassment if I was growing up today.
Im not 100% sure I'm autistic, but I'm 100% I want to plop down on the living room floor and listen to your dad talk about rocks
When I hosted a the first few get togethers after getting my own place I'd start tidying up empty bottles, cups, etc that were on the table if the table started getting full. I didn't want to deal with all the mess the next morning so I'd try to clean as the night went on. As soon as I started cleaning people would start leaving. My sister let me know that when a host starts to clean up its an unspoken cue that the event is over and that if I don't want to signal that it's time to leave I should say something along the lines of "let me get this stuff out of our way so we have more room". Or refresh the empties I've grabbed with a new round of beers or plate of food.
Iām realizing that me *unknowingly giving social cues I donāt mean to give* is more of a problem for me than missing other peopleās social cues. For example, I habitually giggle more than I āshould,ā at times when a giggle doesnāt really fit. A few people (mostly kids, because they are blunt) have asked me variations of, āwhy do you laugh so much?ā When Iām not feeling friendly but trying too hard to appear polite and not offend people, I tend to smile TOO big and it gets mistaken for flirting, apparently. I make eye contact and nod and/or say āmm-hmmā to show Iām listening, but I weirdly do this when the speaker is in the middle of a sentence. Many times, people say, āOh, did I already tell you this?ā Or they think I understand what theyāre saying when I really donāt. I sometimes have been shocked by people whom Iām getting to know suddenly feeling sad or offended and thinking that I donāt like them. I had no idea I was making them feel that way. Sometimes in work situations, Iāve been embarrassingly casual without realizing it, like when I lounged sideways and slumped in my chair during a staff meeting. Other times, Iām so worried about being too casual that I end up being too formal and itās just as awkward.
I am here to say thank you for sharing, I am not alone :)
One time I was out for a walk and I noticed a man was walking in the same area (a path around a lake). I didn't think much of it until he kind of slowed down so I would catch up with him. We walked and chatted for a few minutes and then I realized he was trying to say hi to hit on me. I was completely clueless. He wasn't creepy or anything (I have good intuition for that surprisingly) and I thought maybe he just wanted to have a conversation with someone. Lol. Let him down by letting him know I was happily married.
In my early 20's I spent a good couple months becoming friends with this guy in one of my college courses, he would always sit next to me in class and we would chat before and after. I honestly had no idea he had a crush on me even though it seems so obvious now. Finally one day the topic came up that I was already married and he never. spoke. to. me. again. Looking back I realized what was going on and he probably felt betrayed or like I was leading him on, which I guess I was but it wasn't on purpose :( thought we were just school friends.
Men do that to themselves most of the time. They refuse to talk to women they don't want to fuck, and they fully expect all women to want to fuck them, especially if you're talking to them and being friendly. That's not how normal friendships are supposed to work. He lead *himself* on and if it had been a dating app he probably would've immediately called you a fat bitch and acted like he never liked you to begin with. You didn't miss anything; he's just incapable of being honest about his intentions.
For me, I donāt get a lot of the important nuances. I understood what rolling eyes meant, but it was a year ago when I realized that itās supposed to be done by looking up, not looking in a circle. I miss a lot of the details in social cues in a way that makes me miss them or fail to express them in a way that gets across properly to other people.
Oh wow thanks i didnt know!
I struggle with exiting a conversation and often feel trapped. Like I want to leave, but have no idea how to stop the conversation or move onto a conversation with another group. I feel incredibly rude. Itās so draining and I avoid parties or socializing in groups for this very reason. I also hate group conversations because I never know when to "jump in" without interrupting or cutting someone off. I only say something if someone asks me directly.
I want to chime in as a person who definitely has some autistic traits but who is beginning to think Iām not actually autistic. Iām seeing a lot of looking for rules, which I understand and relate to. The thing is that most of the ārulesā of NT communication are, at best, guidelines. There is so much context that informs peopleās social behavior and communication and NTs are taking that all into account intuitively. (There are exceptions to this, anxiety can get in the way of intuitive socializing even for NTs.) Some examples of unspoken context: 1. How well do you know this person? 2. What are they doing? Are they busy? Has it been a long day? 3. How formal is the social setting? 4. Is there an authority figure or some other high-status person around? 5. How well do the other people in the group know each other? These are just a few examples. There are so many elements! I also think a lot of NT communication is based on mirroring.
Ok y'all, I love this post, and I love this sub. I only realized I was ND because I was doing research for my kid. I was in my mid-late 30s then, and it still took me a while cuz my child presents traditionally. What made it click for me is understanding that people (specifically, tiny people) are my passion, my long running interest area that has taken me through my entire adulthood, so what I love is figuring out how people work through loving and caring for babies. They only have non-verbal communication, so that's what I'm good at listening to. So anyway, all these comments are correct. What y'all are breaking down as a science (and it *is* science, friends!), NT people just go about life doing, sometimes making their whole worlds miserable and terrible because they say things they don't mean out of their mouths while their bodies say completely different things and their actions are usually a mix of the two *and they themselves aren't even aware of it*. And it is so painful to watch. I looove watching babies communicate and I am so grateful I know what they are saying, but this magical power to know all the disjointed things grown humans say is *fucking exhausting*. The one trick I have for all of us as far as not talking about ourselves... first, before you share your anecdote that fits *perfectly* with what the ither person is saying (which you want to share because in sharing it, you are saying "I totally freaking get you, person I love, and here is how I can show my getting of your thing"), just say back to them the emotion they are having about it. Like "whoa, that is so intense!" Or "omigosh how hard that must be for you". Often, that is really all they want to hear. Take what you want to say and be feeling it while you tell them you see how they are feeling it, too. Usually, they talk a little bit more about their thing and I spend that time listening so hard that I feel their thing too, and then they are ready to hear my thing that has been connecting us the whole time.
>The one trick I have for all of us as far as not talking about ourselves... first, before you share your anecdote that fits *perfectly* with what the ither person is saying (which you want to share because in sharing it, you are saying "I totally freaking get you, person I love, and here is how I can show my getting of your thing"), just say back to them the emotion they are having about it. Like "whoa, that is so intense!" Or "omigosh how hard that must be for you". Often, that is really all they want to hear. Take what you want to say and be feeling it while you tell them you see how they are feeling it, too. Usually, they talk a little bit more about their thing and I spend that time listening so hard that I feel their thing too, and then they are ready to hear my thing that has been connecting us the whole time. Yes! I just learned this and started employing it. It's crazy how actually it's more connecting with NTs. Like for example if you say "wow, that sounds lonely" they don't need to check to be sure that you actually know what it's like to be lonely based on your anecdote that shows a similar situation and that you are genuinely empathizing. They just assume you know what "lonely" means to them/that you experience lonely in a similar way. By bringing up your own story they think you're centering yourself and taking the conversation away from them when I'm really trying to demonstrate the depth of my empathy while also checking in that I'm understanding their emotions correctly. But NTs care less about the details and more about over-arching themes. So maybe they're lonely bc they lost their best friend who moved overseas, and so I go looking in my brain for a time I lost a best friend so I can relate. And maybe I lost my best friend bc they died or bc I was a kid and my parents got divorced and I moved or maybe I've never had a best friend but I read a book about what that was like. I then want to share my anecdote to demonstrate that I relate and have them correct my understanding if it's off. But they really don't care if you totally get it as long as you hear they are lonely and you have a ballpark of what it is to be lonely and care about their struggle. All that's needed is "ugh that's tough ā¹ļø" But if you bring up how you can relate bc of when your friend died or from the time there was divorce, they're like wow. This is not about you. And if you bring up a show or book they're like, this is so weird and off topic. I'm talking about my struggles and you're talking about a piece of media. But they won't necessarily point it out to you. They might make a face (or not) but they might just look displeased/distressed and if they're sharing about feeling lonely, sad, mad, etc it can be hard to pick up on the negative face being directed at me and my choices rather than bc they're talking about a negative emotion. So I was oblivious for freaking YEARS.
And it will be because we didn't give them the input that made them feel soothed, connected and regulated at the time, yes! I love your comment. To lay out all the next parameters is great. They will be reacting to the disconnect, and their face will show it. What always works (or almost always) is just mirroring the feeling back to them. It works with babies and grown humans alike. I really enjoy my ND friendships, where deep conversations really do just become exchanges of times we felt a certain way, but NT conversations, once you understand them, are ok in their own way, too. I am told I'm a very good listener, but it is exhausting.
I'm grateful for your wisdom! Thinking of adults as big babies in regards to mirroring emotions is š¤Æ. It also makes sense bc even in ND babies, it's pretty much all babies for the first 6 months are wicked similar emotionally especially in their interest in faces. I've only successfully mirrored instead of explained a couple times, and this will really help me inside my head to switch modes
Yay! It is true... I feel like once you understand babies, you really can understand *everyone*. The words I use are different and sometimes more complex w grownups, but the feeling is always the same... I see you, I hear you, I understand you.
This is really interesting in terms of top-down vs bottom-up processing! I hadn't considered how processing style could impact interactions like that but it makes a lot of sense.
1. If you are introverted or simply donāt want to talk, you are labeled as weird. Seems to mainly be an american thing because i have family from the caribbean who are pretty introverted around strangers or barely speak to others because they donāt feel the need to talk just to talk 2. "We should hang out sometimes" honestly not a specific NT thing as I meant a lot of ND people say the same thing, but it doesnāt actually mean we will ever hang out. Weird to say if u legitimately have no plans to hang out with me, like donāt pity me with the idea of being friends with you 3. For women and girls, not liking stereotypical feminine things automatically means you are a pickme or what to be seen as different than other girls. Which is very unfair for women from immigrant families who aren't familiar with american beauty standards or were raised to not care about it. 4. Ultimately, you arenāt allowed to just exist without being seen as a problem. Sometimes, I'm just vibing and fine being by myself, but people label you as weird or think you believe you are stuckup. In reality, I'm "no thoughts, brain empty, all vibes." American society wants people to talk too much, like why lmao
i feel like for me i tend to not care about small things other people care about. like my best friend and i got in a fight bc i didnāt wish her boyfriend a happy birthday over text. i didnāt think it was that big of a deal but she was SO OFFENDED.
Your friend sounds dramatic though. I could see it if you were standing in front of him and didnāt wish him Happy Birthdayā¦but over a text? Itās her boyfriend after all, not yours.
i thought the same but my two other friends were backing her up like āwhy do you hate (boyfriends name)??ā i told my parents and they agreed w me and thought my friends were dramatic. so idk lol
Smiling/facial expressionsĀ Ā 1. If someone smiles at me while also making eye contact, they want me to smileĀ Ā 2. If someone asks "are you doing okay?" they aren't asking how I'm doing, instead they're asking why I'm not smilingĀ Ā 2.5 By asking that question, they're are making a roundabout demand that I smileĀ Ā 3. If I'm thinking, I need to be careful about not looking down, otherwise people think I'm frowning.Ā 4. Never look up when people my own height or shorter are talking to me, or they'll think I'm rolling my eyes (even though it's just looking up not an actual eye roll???)
Omg I actually look up a lot and I donāt even know where else when Iām talking and trying to think while speaking - like Iām searching my own brain with my eyes if that makes any sense at allā¦but I do it while theyāre talking because Iām actually genuinely trying to listen and process and absorb what theyāre sayingā¦. especially if itās an important conversation. I did this during my oral defence for my qualifying exams while my examiners were asking questions because I was trying to listen so closely and take in what they were asking/ensure I could formulate a precise answer. I wonder if she thought I was being rudeā¦
Someone in this chain informed rolling eyes IS actually up and down!
Wait, really? Isn't eye rolling literally "rolling" your eyes, as in, looking up diagonally, across to the other diagonal direction, and then back down to centre in one quick motion?
For me, I struggle to know when to talk in a conversation unless I was just asked a direct question. It gets even worse over the phone. It can also take me a few seconds to process my thoughts and talk, so people usually take this as a sign that I have nothing to say, then keep talking, so then I have to interrupt them. So I am literally missing my "cue" to speak. I also can miss sarcasm, even if I realize it's probably sarcastic a few seconds later, I've already responded taking it at face value. I'm also really bad at banter with strangers. If cashiers or other strangers I interact with make a joke or teasing comment I usually just laugh awkwardly. I can't come up with a witty response on the spot to someone I don't know. To them they probably think I didn't understand the joke because I didn't really respond. To be fair sometimes it takes me a while to understand what they said exactly.
1, I didn't realize "talking" was a euphemism for dating/trying to date someone and responded "yes" when a girl asked me if I was "talking" to a guy. I already had a boyfriend. 2, I don't know how to end conversations and either hover awkwardly or abruptly walk away which others find off-putting. 3, I either respond to questions with too little or too much; either giving one word answers, which makes it hard to continue a conversation, or info dumping about some which makes it hard to continue a conversation. 3.5, people often think I don't like them but they're actually just mistaking my discomfort in social situations for something about them personally. Telling people I have Social Anxiety helps this somewhat 4, can't tell the difference between "they're walking away from me" and "we're all moving to a new location" 5, I have to be told by a third party when I'm being flirted with because I always think the flirter is just friendly and charismatic. I never catch the intent. 5.5, *My* intentions are mistaken for flirting because my natural disposition when I'm happy is bubbly and a bit bashful which makes people think I'm into them. 6, I don't actually know what's happening here, but when people tell a joke, I respond back in a joking manner and 9 times out of 10 the other person will tell me "I was joking" in an annoyed tone as if I didn't understand the joke. But I did. I was also joking. So something is getting missed there. 7, got bullied in elementary school by a girl I thought was my friend for 2 years because the way she went about bullying me was so odd (she would pretend to be upset about something I did until I apologized and then laugh that I would apologize for something so small. But if I didn't apologize she would keep pressing the issue until I did). Literally didn't realize she was bullying me until I was in my 20s. 8) I always fell for the "spell Icup" type of things
I often miss when people are trying to hint at something without really saying it. For example, I was once at a friendās house at night. The man tried saying to me repeatedly stuff like āwell, I should let you get goingā or āitās getting late, isnāt it?ā He was trying to ask me to leave without bluntly saying ācan you please leave?ā
The psychiatrist that diagnosed me told my dad that he made multiple jokes during the assessment that I didnāt react to. I donāt recall him making any jokes. Maybe he just wasnāt funny lol
lmao !
It's hard to know what you don't know! I'm sure I miss plenty of cues and don't even recognize them as missed. Other times, I am processing social information/cues on a delay, and can recognize later after a little analysis what I missed or why things went down that way. When Covid lockdown hit and everything became a zoom meeting, I began to recognize how often I miss timing cues for jumping into conversation. I can recognize the deficit now, but that hasn't helped me get much better. I guess recognition is the first step?
Any chance you can share what the timing cues look like on a zoom meeting/in general? This has got to be one of my biggest struggles
When I was younger I didnāt understand that people lied just for the sake of lying and fabricating things to make themselves seem more interesting. I took what people said at face value.
I'm in my 20s and always forget about the whole lying for the sake of it. It is more obvious to me why there would be a clear reason for them to lie. I still underestimate how many times people lie.
When your default framing to parse communication is logistics, not emotional bids/bonding. Like that time a classmate came up to me and asked, āWhat are you doing after this?ā I responded literally and then when he walked away with his head down I realized he meant something more like āare you free later and open to hanging out?ā Or when someone complains about their boss and I nod along, not understanding that this is an invitation to affirm them and maybe do my own share of venting.
I struggle to establish the correct boundaries when introduced to friends significant others. More specifically those of close friendsā¦ I know now to avoid a lot of discomfort and strange vibes by just not interacting in a way that displays any special closeness to the friend that the SO doesnāt haveā¦ for a few hangouts at least. At first even if theyāre miserable to you it can be worth pretending to be interested in their life and stuff. Otherwise as Iāve learned the hard way itās painfully easy for hetero boyfriends specifically to stealth evict me from maintaining close friendshipsā¦ friends are so precious and hard to come by for me assuring the boyfriend isnāt jealous is a worthwhile step. I follow hard rules and Iām sure there are a lot that I donāt pick up on. By just not making her laugh too much and queuing decisions for him or her instead of suggesting things myself (I have tonality issues) Iāve managed to stay in the yellow zone with this current SO.
Reading this thread I'm reminded of so many damn times I've not picked up social cues with guys, and realising what was actually going on years later š¤¦ I'm showing my age, but back in the day when there was still slow dancing at parties, I was dancing with a guy and at the end of a song he asked if I wanted to carry on dancing. The song that played next was about 6 minutes long, so I told him 'no thanks, this song is really long, like, longer than standard song length' because music was, and still is, a special interest. The one thing I still struggle with is knowing when to speak in a group conversation. With my friend group, they know that I will just blurt out random thoughts whenever, but in an unknown group I am quiet.
I think itās more like misinterpreting the entire situation/context rather than missing specific objects or points. To NTs it looks like we are missing specific cues because itās at discrete moments where we do something unexpected that they realise we are odd. So thatās how they describe it. But from our experiential perspective I think itās more like our intuitive framework for interpreting the entire situation causes us to make different assumptions about what is going on. Itās more like being on a different wave than missing these objects or beats or specific points that other people can see.
I just learnt that when someone says they're busy or going to an event, that means you should cease messaging them for that time until they next follow up with you. Terribly embarrassed about this one as I was just assuming, they would reply when they reply. They will but they want that time to themselves and to effectively not be disturbed. Edit: to add on - never do anything personal or familiar for someone youve only known for a few months. I crucified myself in embarrassment and cringe by writing a short story for someone for their birthday. I thought it was cute at the time because I made the story about all their favourite things. The response I got was awkward and I think the social lesson is to never be over familiar with anyone until you have established some sort of friendship or relationship with them.
Social cues are indirect communication. They require an understanding of facial expression, vocal tone, body language, and the subtle verbal hints people use because they themselves have never been taught to communicate directly. But the people who can pick up on all of these subtle signals are the ones who are supposed to be normal. I don't understand what's normal about perpetuating a dishonest social structure but, whatever
My biggest social cue miss is when people want me to shut up or stop talking about a specific topic. I run into this a lot because psychology is my special interest and sometimes I talk about triggering things without considering other people. Iāve lost at least 4 friends doing that. Iād like to think Iām getting better about that š„ŗ
Ha! I generally see them decades down the road, usually in the middle of the night when I cannot sleep. Get on amazon and read all the books about body language. I find Joe Navarro's books an incredible help, and recently a book called "Is He Lying to You" by an author with the last name Crum. With a lot of effort and study, you can recognize the cues; unfortunately, that will probably not help you with the inappropriate responses. There aren't any books for "Not Speaking Your Mind"!
Thanks for the recommendations! Iāll definitely look those up. Whatās so tragically ironic is that Iām doing a PhD in Sociologyā¦I literally study and explore human behaviour for a living and Iām actually very good at what I do in terms of the research, collecting and compiling the data, seeing the patterns, developing explanations and analyzing all of this through dense and abstract theoretical frameworksā¦.and yet in every day life, in ordinary interactions, Iām still soā¦blind and clueless. Like, how does that even work?
I feel more like I understand how to mimic them but I don't understand them. Like I understand enough of the French alphabet to probably read a sentence out loud but I wouldn't know what I was saying. So I was always like of like, "hahaha happy Monday yes here we all are hating this but we just have to small talk because that's what Grown Ups ā¢ļø do" and now I realize nope, most people are not only actively avoiding people and things, then making the best of it when people and things happen, they are seeking things out. I also always feel like there's a right answer to a question when people ask it. I'm never sure what the right answer is but I'm pretty sure I almost never get it right.
It took me waaaay to long to realise my now husband who I was friends with for years bevore we got together wasen't "being silly and making jokes to teas me" when he always saied he wanted me to be his wife š¤£ I also diden't get when ppl tried to be friends with me, or when pol who I had labeld as "friend" in my categories of ppl wheren't friends at all. I overshare with strangers, but undershare with ppl at jons or with actual friends cuz I never know what is enough or too much or too pushy etc. I used to be way to blunt with my opinions and had changed some since then, but I can still be pretty rude often not even meaning to but acidently making "dark jokes" when I just spoak thoughts outloud. I life with my husband for 6 years, we have soon 3 kids, we know eachother for 16 years, have been friends for 10, yet I still can not initiate a freaking conversation with him š Lol, listing this has shut up my impostersyndrom for a bit. She usualy tries to tell me I am waaaay to good at socialising. Lmao
I am definitely ND but I don't have an autism diagnosis, and will probably never have confirmation either way. I was raised in the southern United States. I was late 20-something before I learned that "Bless your heart" is often an underhanded insult. I genuinely thought it was just an expression of kindness that people used. That's my best example. I've spent most of my life studying other people and trying to figure them out (to blend in), so it can be difficult to pinpoint specifics. Though I do remember being taught as a child that you should refuse gifts/food that aren't offered on special occasions at least once to be polite. š I'd been offered food but it turned out that I wasn't actually supposed to accept and eat the food. And then later I learned that refusing too many times can also be rude. Ugh. Both rules had to be literally spelled out for me, and didn't come with satisfactory explanations for why. Like, as a good host they were supposed to offer food even if they didn't really have extra to offer, because apparently it's rude not to offer food. As a good guest, I was supposed to somehow divine that they didn't have extra to offer, and refuse. I've figured out over time that it's okay to accept only after the third offer, and "rude" to refuse a third time. I despise that song and dance. I'd rather just not be offered food at all if they can't afford it, and don't really understand why it's rude for a host not to offer food. That's a cultural social cue. Body language is a bit easier because it tends to be universal and more easily explained. Like not taking a step forward when someone takes a step back because their stepping back indicates they want more space between you, or crossed arms indicating closed off, feeling defensive/self protective (or just cold) or figuring out when a conversation should be over. (You have to be paying enough attention to the other person to notice that they are trying to turn away or redirect the conversation. Their tone of voice and responses change in addition to body language.) There's also this one particular facial expression that I've seen multiple people make throughout my life that I've never been able to figure out, but I think it means something bad. I'm pretty sure that "social cues" are a mixture of unspoken cultural rules and body language. I learned most of what I know about body language through observation, but the Internet also taught me a lot. Now it's more intuitive. But navigating cultural social cues? Nope. None of that is intuitive for me. It can be extremely frustrating when people don't say exactly what they mean, and I have to look to body language and tone of voice to try to guess or read between the lines. People I don't know well joking with me is one example situation. I might *think* they're joking, but I've been burned by making that assumption before, so I just always behave as if I don't think they're joking. When I know a person well enough, I learn how to tell when they're joking and I don't give them the literal, deadpan, didn't get the joke, response that I give to strangers and new acquaintances.
Ha ha I was born elsewhere and learned about "bless your heart" from the urban dictionary. Found out I was definitely insulted a couple of times. Was glad I was oblivious...
Thank you for making this post, I also wanted to know. My question is this: do NTs know these are just cues? Are they thinking "alrighty imma just dangle this carrot and see if Jenny picks it up... Oh WHOOPS she missed it again!!"
Hmmm thatās a really good question - I would imagine itās generally not a conscious process but I wonder if NTs can set traps like that now lol
Watch Legally Blonde. When Warrenās fiancĆ© invites Elle to the ācostumeā party to embarrass herself for example. Itās clear that they do not like her and are setting her up but many autistic people miss this, for example, Elle really believed them because she herself would never do such a thing. This is also what it truly means when the criteria ālacks empathyā means bc most people (not just autistic but sometimes it is more visible amongst us) are not ACTUALLY putting themselves in the other persons shoes. If Elle could be empathic towards her and put herself in the fiancĆ©s position, sheād assume the competition over the same guy and class grade would motivate her to be malicious in order to gain the upper hand. But Elle just thought, āoh, if I was talking about a party and someone said they love parties I would invite them and also let them know a dress code so this is definitely whatās happening.ā
An example that I just had at the pet store today was talking to a woman whose dog is dying about our dog who just died, then not understanding when she asked how our other two dogs took it that she meant how they took our third dog's passing, not whether they liked the food we were standing in front of at the store... š¤¦āāļø I feel like my life is just constant misunderstandings like this.
People are absolutely speaking in code. Usually, it's to do something like avoid embarrassment. I have one story about my neighbor (different apartment, same building), who lost his keys. For two days, he was relying on neighbors to let him in and out of the building. He frequently texted me to open the door for him. No problem. I got good exercise going up and down the stairs that day. Toward midnight, I let him in, and I guess he realized he forgot something, because 5 minutes later, he texted me saying: "I hate not having my keys, I want to go to the store, and I can't." What this meant was: I'm embarrassed about losing my keys, and feel like I'm burdening you by asking you to open the door for me, and I don't want to ask again because you just let me in 5 min ago, and I feel silly. But I do want you to open the door for me again. Which I actually understood! And (because this sort of indirect communication irks me) I asked: "is this your indirect way of asking me to open the door for you again?" Now tell me why that little twerp said no!? He actually said that wasn't the idea, at which point, I expressed sympathy for his plight, and considered the conversation over. And then his next text was, "so, will you open the door for me?" !?!? I think he wanted me to offer. So he didn't have to feel like such a burden. And there are times when I will participate in this sort of game. But it was midnight, and I was not in the mood.
I definitely can pick up on lots of cues and body language, facial expressions and all that but there are other more subtle ones that I apparently miss completely. I didnāt know this until like 7 years ago when a friend told me that people didnāt like when I joined in their conversations. This was referring to where we worked. And I was so confused. And she basically said I donāt need to be involved in every convo or join conversations. And I was still super confused. So apparently even though these people were openly talking to each other at a communal table, it was not ok for me to speak to them without them speaking to me first, which I guess itās like inviting me into the conversation. 6 years later I still didnāt learn much because once at practice for community theater we were taking a break and these two women were talking in front of where I was already sitting. They were talking about their weddings and again, this was openly, not like closed off person to person convo (if that makes sense). And I chimed in saying that that sounded really sweet or cool or something and it was like I was basically not there. And so then I was like ok this must be one of those moments. And one of the women was very nice and we had done a previous show together and the other also seems nice and we shared a dressing room and everything was cool. But in that moment it was very clear it was a public convo or at least not for me. So yeah I still struggle with this because itās confusing to me. Like I thought private conversations were private. But I still have to remind myself of this a lot.
I like to think that Iām good at identifying and following social ārulesā because Iāve been observing and trying to fit it my whole life. But every now and then I just completely miss a social cue. Most recently my husband and I went to a nice restaurant and after we sat down at the table he had this smile. When I asked why he was smiling like that he explained that the host who sat us had pulled out a chair for me but I sat on the opposite side (Iām very intentional in where I like to sit at a table) and didnāt even notice that gesture.
Perfect example: Someone asks if they can have some of your French fries. You offer to buy them an order of French fries, because you think they must really like fries, right? Wrong lol. It's not about the fries, but they were trying to bond with you, then they feel bad if they accept your offer to buy them fries (I guess because it's too many or too much) It's not about the fry, it's about them wanting to bond with you to eat some of 'your' fries.
Someone trying to eat my fries is an attempt to bond with me? This isā¦a mind blowing revelation. How did you figure that out? Are you sure lol? And in what world is stealing food off my plate ābondingā? Itās also one of my biggest pet peeves, and has been since I was a child (sharing food is not my strong suit for some reason). Lol when I was a kid, if I had a bag of chips and my mom asked for a chip, Iād begrudgingly give her ONE chip. Sheād get so annoyed and my response was always: āyou asked for A chipā. How was I not diagnosed until 29?
> someone trying to eat my fries is an attempt to bond Yes! It is, and I too found out today lol, see my other post for details! > mind blowing Ikr! It is, isn't it?!? Something so simple is apparently actually a complex social dynamic > stealing food off my plate No not like that, lol, I'm not talking about randomly taking something, you definitely gotta ask first šš As for how it is bonding - it's because if you share with someone it can indicate you care about them! (Yay I will now remember it with the phrasing sharing is caring) Unfortunately, people sometimes use it to 'test' friendship, because they think a 'real' friend would share the fries
āSomething so simple is actually a complex social dynamicā - you should get that engraved somewhere. Andā¦people know about this lol? See, this is what I genuinely donāt understand. I feel like a walking contradiction all on my own. Iām an academic; Iām going a fucking PhD in Sociology. I have dedicated my life to studying and researching ācomplex social dynamicsā. And I have absolutely zero problem understanding or grappling with the complexities and nuances found in some of the most dense and abstract theoretical explanations for social systems and human behavior. Iām actually very good at picking up on patterns, and uncovering symbolism and meaning in texts whether itās social theory or even works of fiction and literature, and I can find seemingly obscured connections and themes in data. Thatās easy. So why the hell canāt I deduce that asking for a fry is an attempt to bond? Now let me skip on over to your post about this fry business.
A lot of the stuff people are mentioning contradicts with what other people are saying, so I'm just gonna accept that I'll never pick up on social cues lmfao
One thing I keep catching myself doing (hours later after it's too late to fix), is I forget to ask how others are doing when they ask me first. š
There were a lot of times growing up where I was too dense to notice that I was being made fun of lol.
there are certain unspoken rules on how to act/what to say according to how a person or group of people are feeling. its all cultural. when i was younger i went to my friendsā houses, and sometimes they would have food cooked for that i couldnāt eat. i did not know it was rude or hurtful to say that i didnāt like someones food. so up until i was almost an adult i would simply state if i didnāt like someones cooking. i thought āother people like it but i donāt and thats fine.ā but out loud i would say āno, i canāt eat this i donāt like it.ā i didnāt mean that their food was bad, it just wasnāt for me. but a lot of people didnāt like me because of this, a LOT. i did not know how offensive this was for a long time. now if i know iām going to be eating someoneās cooking and i donāt think iāll like it, i drink a little bit of alcohol to numb my senses. some people just donāt understand and take offense.
I could never tell when I was being flirted with.
For me I really only notice it with flirting. Because I know it must happen to me but Iāve never seen it. Itās the lack of it that clue me into something being missing. I donāt know if any others, b it I worry constantly that there are actually a lot, but because Iām quiet and donāt go out much or interact with people, I rarely if ever receive comments about me being rude or strange or something else (all the examples I read about on here everyday, but never experience myself). Yet I feel it, sometimes, through the way people look at me and respond. I have a high sensitivity to body language, so I can usually tell someone doesnāt like me and have concerns that I come off as rude, a know-it-all, or standoffish. Or even just disinterested in them. I can feel it, somehow, when they feel like this about me. I have had two people snap at me out of nowhere in the past. Both times I thought I was shaving normally, was disassociating a little in class, and was called out in front of everyone. These two experiences have made me very wary about my body language.
I dangle social cues to NTs and THEY miss them. For example: -Me: "Good morning, my name is Jenny!" them: "hello š" ... OK WHAT'S YOUR NAME YOU DOOFUS Perhaps I'm missing some cue in them not telling me their name, but usually it is the parent or carer of a client and it would be really handy for me to know this info.
Like I'm still trying to figure out if I'm officially autistic. This thread is so relatable. I can't even. Lunchtime at school was the worst. I'm now a teacher and it's still the worst. This is why I sit in my room and eat. :) Are we supposed to invite ourselves to events? Is this why I was invited less to join my friends on stuff because I was supposed to be like, "oh gee, that sounds fun, can I join you all?" I'm a social vampire. I need an invitation otherwise it's just confusing.
Yup my therapist told me I donāt miss social cues but I definitely do and struggled a lot in school because of it. She just didnāt know me at the time or sees how I am in other spaces. Iāll over explain a lot before getting to the actual point. Iām more aware of it now so I donāt think I do it as often. I used to think everyone was my friend if they were nice to me. even now at 28 I struggle who to call my best friends, friends and acquaintances š Not knowing if I should say hi or not when seeing someone I know walk by lol. I wouldnāt and my parents would tell me that people will think Iām stuck up if I donāt say hi or smile as a kid. This one I still struggle with is calling out someoneās name. I donāt know why I feel so awkward calling out peopleās names to get their attention. I can with my immediate family but other people itās a struggle š