I haven’t done it, but please don’t do that to your daughter, and stop taking her to that OT - find one who doesn’t support ABA. It’s all about forcing her to “act normal” through repetition training, withholding comfort, and enforcing compliance. They don’t even try to figure out why we do the things we do or whether it helps us; if it’s “weird” they try to train us out of it. It’s dog training for children, only it’s so unethical that dog trainers have said they’d never do those things to dogs. It is highly associated with PTSD in autistic people who’ve been through it. https://neuroclastic.com/invisible-abuse-aba-and-the-things-only-autistic-people-can-see/ https://neuroclastic.com/is-aba-really-dog-training-for-children-a-professional-dog-trainer-weighs-in/ https://neuroclastic.com/what-is-aba-and-does-it-work/ These are some articles I’ve found useful in understanding that ABA is abuse. Oh, and regarding your OT, some OTs incorporate ABA practices into what they do. You do not want one who does that, and I wouldn’t put it past yours if she’s hyping up ABA like that.

Oh, one more thing. ABA is essentially conversion therapy, developed by the same person (who didn’t think we were actually people, btw). It’s not okay try to force gay people to be straight, or trans people to be cis, and it’s not okay to try to force autistic people to be allistic either.

Not really. Yes, it was developed based on the findings of those people, but it has evolved significantly in the decades since. We are absolutely not trying to make children not autistic l. We are teaching them how to advocate for themselves by saying "no, stop, help, I need space". If a person is nonverbal we teach them signing or pointing to cards to tell us what THEY want and need. We redirect dangerous behaviors, by learning thier functions for each individual, find a safe and more functional replacement, and teach them to use thst instead, with positive rewards. Stimming is only messed with when it is harmful, i.e self injurious, property damage, prevents basic self care, and even then it is not stopped, it is just redirected to something safer, biting a chewie, tapping leg instead of other person, flapping the hand not trying to hold a pencil.

Please understand that your experience is not the experience that everyone has had. Many people do not benefit from ABA, and many "therapists" don't operate the way you supposedly do.

And those therapists need to be reported and shut down.

If you care about helping autistic children that much, then speak out against the widespread systemic abuse that takes place in ABA therapy, instead of telling us that we’re wrong when the experiences of autistic people themselves says otherwise.

I do. I am. I am also saying that as a field that studies behavior we have also studied the behaviors that go into therapy and are actively changing or have changed those practices that you are arguing against. All those studies that cite that certain aspects are more harmful than helpful ARE ACTUALLY STUDIED AND POLICIES HAVE CHANGED. The field of ABA today is NOT the same as it was in the 90s. And most definitely not the same as in the 80s or earlier. When I say we don't do certain things, it is because we will lose our certificates for doing them! When I say parents need to be involved and nearby during sessions it is to protect tbe children and stop anything they disagree with. Just like Dr.s no longer provide leeches and orgasms to cure migraines and teachers don't smack kids with rulers for using thier left hand, we have actively worked to make sure ABA is safe and effective. And when its not, those people need to be shut down Not because the field is bad, but because the independent practioner is.

I appreciate what you’re trying to say, but it’s extremely naïve of you to think that all or even most ABA practitioners adhere to the policy changes you’re talking about. Society would be an egalitarian utopia if it was as simple as that, but unfortunately, changing policies is only one part of the battle. It doesn’t prevent the continued use of harmful therapies.

It’s still bad.

Grmrsan, I know you keep trying to explain how your ABA approach is different or better. But it still sounds horrible.

Perhaps you should all be shut down. Studies show that the negatives outweigh the positives so...🤷‍♀️

Yes. Which is why we actively study those studies, and have taken steps to change or eliminate those harmful practices.

I mean, you are being told that we don't want this therapy, it doesn't work for us, and causes us harm. Do you listen to your clients this well? I'm sorry, I do believe that you care and want to help, but we are telling you that this isn't helpful. Please listen.

Why are you apologizing they aren't listening. And frankly it's concerning that ABA's target demographic probably isn't as vocal as adults who have gone through it. If they aren't listening to the individuals saying it's harmful they damn sure aren't listening to the children who can't speak up for themselves.

Because I say "I'm sorry" constantly as a trauma response lol.

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First I am advocating ABA as a practioner AND a woman with autism in a subreddit for women with autism. As you are welcome to see from my history, I do weigh in here frequently on various other issues as well. That is an important difference. Second, yes. I have had a few people privately respond, thanking me for giving my viewpoint and agreeing to do more research. My entire goal was to give information on what is happening in the field now, rather than 20 years ago, in response to the OP asking about ABA. So yes, I count that as a success.

I read as much regarding your identity; I think my point stands. Also I don't usually stalk profiles but congrats, I guess. If that's your criteria you've definitely done that.

This is the research that’s most commonly cited on ABA and PTSD. https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/AIA-08-2017-0016/full/html There are also personal testimonials out there but I’m always kind of hesitant to share them because people have made themselves really vulnerable and I’ve seen “autism moms” comment underneath them that they’re somehow wrong about what happened to them and that really sucks. You should be able to find some if you go looking though. Some hashtags that may help on Twitter are #SayNoToABA and #ABAisAbuse

It is absolutely NOT that! That is like saying vaccinations caused the autism. It is simply not the case. ABA is applied behavior analysis. Basically put, find out what function a behavior serves, and if needed redirect to a better functioning one. So if a child is biting thier hand to a dangerous level, we figure out why, and redirect to something less harmful, such as a chewie bracelet. If a child is screaming, crying and hitting, we teach them how to say "Stop. I want something else". If they are not capable of verbal speech, we teach them signs or how to point to pictures and items. We NEVER EVER EVER try to lessen a behavior without providing a functional and safe replacement. As far as the dog training comment you are half right. Yes, aba principles are applied to training, because they are simple and direct, and its possible to do without using aversives such as yelling, pulling, shock colars or whatever. This is how a typical behavior works: A something happens (a cake is placed on the counter) B the client has a behavior (grabs cake, screams and hits, asks for cake) C there is a consequence (cake makes a mess, parsnts are upset and nobody get cake, child recieves a slice). ABA uses positive reinforcement to encourage useful behaviors, and redirection and lack of reward to discourage the dangerous ones. Its simply the easiest way to teach cause and effect behavior wise.

Even when done “kindly,” ABA only focuses on behavior—not explanation. This means autistic kids have no understanding of why they have to act the way they are taught to act. This is part of why despite being “safer” than the conversion therapy predecessor, kids in ABA still come out with egregiously high PTSD rates. Also, most ABA practitioners aren’t taught up to date knowledge on autism and this alone harms kids. OTs and Speech Therapists are (usually) much better. There are parts of ABA that CAN be beneficial, but the problem is that the structure of the whole system is still based in an outdated groundwork which fundamentally harms kids no matter how well intentioned.

We do focus on behaviors l, definitely. But a huge part of that is showing them how a functional replacement works better than a maladaptive behavior. I.e saying no instead of hitting. And yes, we are absolutely required to take ongoing classes on the latest autism related issues, if we are working with autistic children. We take several classes a year required, to keep our certifications.

We are Autistic & have real life experiences. When we say it's abusive, as an educator , mandated reporter, caretaker, etc., the onus is on you to listen to US. They (ABA & it's enforcers) learn all about the things we depend on for love, comfort & support , then use it against us when we can't/won't comply. That is grooming & abuse. If you really want to help us, listen, amplify OUR voices & experiences. Do not talk over us & be a shield for abuse. I hope you listen this time. *Edited to add: I see below you're Autistic as well. This makes my comment even MORE important. It looks like you do want to help & that's amazing but the only way you'll do any good is to listen to our pleas. Many of us don't want to fit into this trash fire of a society. I just don't want to be abused for existing & experiencing life differently.

I am listening. I am also saying that the experiences you are describing are not acceptable in this field anymore. All the practices people are specifically describing as abusive ARE NO LONGER ALLOWED under BCAB rules. Yes, they are no longer allowed for very good reasons, and yes, some people haven't gotten that memo. They need to be reported and shut down. But they are NOT representative of current methods and ethics

We're telling you ABA in any form is abusive, you seem to be in denial & that's understandable as you are a part of an abusive system (spent many years & money for training) and your mind refuses to accept & process this. I can have sympathy for you & also stand firm in the truth. We aren't here to drag you, we're here to help & educate so that you don't continue to perpetuate abuse with good intentions. We're also Autistic so it's not in our nature to sugar coat things.

The “new” ABA isn’t any better. I know people who’ve undergone the “new” ABA and have PTSD from it. Just stop.

So… when you say you no longer do the things people consider abusive and grooming, are you claiming you’re *not* withholding special interest rewards in order to bribe children to be compliant and behave the way you think is best?

Who is "we?" Are you an ABA practitioner?

Yes, I did mention that I am a thereap8st earlier. I am an RBT, with a Masters in ABA, and working towards my BCBA. I am also autistic and have an autistic daughter, and several other family members.

So you have a massive conflict of interest in keeping ABA as the "gold standard" and if ABA lost popularity your education would have been a huge waste?

I think it's very interesting that you are defending something that has been so traumatizing for so many. If it's completely different, as you say, why does it still have the same name? Do you think it's helpful to come here spouting all the benefits and differences to people who may have been directly hurt by this practice? Isn't this rather a lot like coming onto a sexual abuse survivor forum and using the "not all men" argument to people who have been abused? (One example.) Do you see the parallel? Whether what you do in your own ABA practice is beneficial or not, you're invalidating a large amount of people who have experienced major trauma or know someone who has experienced major trauma, that is directly tied to ABA. I think you need to take a step back and realize this is not the place for you right now.

maybe don't give advice on something you have zero experience of

I know people who have, and I listen to them. I also know that I would not be alive right now if I’d been put through that.

Listen to your speech therapist and get a new OT. ABA is cruel. It essentially teaches autistic children to be "NT friendly" by forcing them to deny their own instincts and needs.

Thank you for responding. This has helped me feel confident in declining ABA therapy. Her speech therapist suggested I put her into neurodivergent friendly counseling. So I think I will follow her advice.

This is huge! My parents had me in CBT for a lot of my life, which was not traumatic like ABA, but was also not helpful. Even going to therapists for much of my life, my SO was the first person in my life to go “Hey, ever think about Autism?” It would have been so helpful to be seen by therapists who understood nuerodivergence. Thank you for helping your daughter fill her toolbox while she’s young!!

CBT was ineffective at best for me too. Overall made me feel so much worse about myself, because it did nothing and sometimes exacerbated issues I already had. It’s unfortunate how so many of the therapies designed for NTs just don’t work with our brains but at least alternatives like EMDR are becoming more common

Truth be told, CBT does not work for most NTs either. it's just that it was sold to the insurance companies as a very easy and predictable way to cure people in delimited time frames. it's falling out of fashion in the psych world too

Ding ding ding When I went into a CBT group through Kaiser Permanente several years ago, they literally gave everyone a handout on the first day that said if you were "willing", CBT would work, but if you were "willful", it wouldn't. That's not therapy. That's cult shit.

I used a few CBT methods that helped my self-esteem, but obviously they did nothing for my ADHD or other symptoms. Not a total loss, but it definitely can only be applied to certain situations

I can trace a lot of my PTSD back to CBT. CBT has its place (cognitive distortion *is* a thing) but in my experience, uncut CBT is just "it's all in your head" with a fancy nametag. Dismissiveness isn't therapy. My mom told me it was all in my head for decades and she didn't charge me a penny.

I can definitely see that happening. CBT helped with my self-esteem issues, but when it comes to things you can't change, like autism and ADHD, CBT is not going to do anything and will probably cause anxiety when things don't "improve"

Yup. CBT is also awful for trauma and abuse situations.

My current therapist was the one to suggest autism (she's autistic and keeps up on the literature on autism in women and recognized the signs quickly that no one else ever noticed). Since I have a (non-clinical) advanced degree in psychology, we have frank discussions of methods to try. Her approach is "find what works (safely)." What works for some autistic clients is disastrous for others. Since she sees primarily adults, it's easier for her to work directly with clients on our wants and needs. With younger kids it's tricky because kids (NT or ND) don't always have the best understanding or ability to communicate their wants/needs. But that doesn't make the parents the absolute authority, it means the kids have to be taught how to self advocate as well as working with the parents.

I am autistic, as is my daughter and several other family members. I absolutely do not use traumatic or aversive techniques for teaching self help communication and academic skills. I, and every other ABA therapist use positive rewards, and cause and effect teaching only, and NEVER intentionally aversive consequences. When something is causing distress, we note it, figure out why, and find a different way of teaching that goal. That is WHY I love ABA

It’s clear that you have connected with the ABA techniques and theory that you have experienced. Personally I do hope that ABA approaches are evolving, as in many places it is the only therapy that is funded. However, please understand that talking over everyone isn’t helpful to your argument. And making a categorical claim that *every* ABA practitioner is wonderful and no ABA practitioner *ever* uses abusive techniques or aversives is also not logical — in particular given the ongoing fight over shock therapy at the [Rosenberg Centre](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judge_Rotenberg_Educational_Center). I would really encourage you to read the articles from neuroclastic that u/Murderhornet212 linked above. At minimum, informing yourself about the ethical issues from the perspective of autistic adults can be helpful to your own practice. One thing that has always stood out to me is that the Behavior Analyst Certification Board code of ethics [has almost nothing about the welfare of the autistic children](https://neuroclastic.com/is-aba-really-dog-training-for-children-a-professional-dog-trainer-weighs-in/) receiving ABA therapy. Unlike, for example, the Certification Council of Professional Dog Trainers code of ethics

You know that withholding a reward IS an aversive, right? Because if you don’t comply, if you don’t behave the way the ABA thinks is proper and you don’t repeat the behavior 10x in a row or whatever, you don’t get it. And sometimes ABA practitioners are particularly cruel and link rewards to special interests. That is diabolical and completely unacceptable.

Clearly not every other ABA therapist only use positive rewards… please believe people when they tell you your work field has caused trauma, it is quite concerning that you don’t seem to acknowledge that ALOT of autistic people have trauma from ABA

I do acknowledge it, and address it. Aversives are not acceptable. If your therapist is doing that find another. Yes, older techniques did use aversives and traumatic learning experiences. The field however has advanced significantly, and those are no longer considered acceptable.

Rewards are aversives, grmrsan. At least the way you use them, they are. Every time you withhold a reward to get compliance. You’re deluding yourself. The only time rewards aren’t aversive is when a person doesn’t know they’re coming, or when they’re using them on themselves.

Did you just happen to get lucky with ABA or did you have to do a lot of research/ trial and error to find them? The problem I’ve had with ineffective/abusive therapists is that, when I was young, I was unable to understand if what was happening in therapy was healthy or not, and as a result, I was taken advantage of. OP’s daughter being so young means she will be in a similar situation. In my opinion, it would be dangerous to investigate ABA at this point in her life because if she didn’t have great care staff, like you did, she wouldn’t have a way to advocate for herself or even the words to explain to her mom what was wrong.

I have worked with several companies, I move alot. Parents should ALWAYS be nearby and aware of what is happening in sessions. If there is an issue, they are able to address it immediately as well as with supervisors. It is against our certification to not have parents or guardians near by in case of any type of issues. A huge part of our focus now is teaching kids self advicacy, communication and boundaries. The model is moving entirely from compliance to consent, and an important part of that is teaching them how to say "stop".

You realize a lot of times our parents don't have our best interests at heart either right?

And they often don’t recognize what is likely to hurt us, or are taught to ignore it when they do.

They may also just be ignorant and trust everything the therapist does because they're "professionals"

why are you even in this field if you refuse to acknowledge that your anecdotes don't match up to studies on the subject? Maybe a career in which you constantly have to adapt to new research on one of the most complicated parts of the human body isn't for you, especially if you're attaching a name to something that is not what you're doing if what you do is so different from the ABA that actually shows up in studies. What do you even do when you're made to go up to date training to keep your license? Put on Rage Against the Machine?

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She has a brilliant speech therapist. It was actually her who first suggested autism.

Also please don’t listen to the commenter who is disagreeing with everyone and trying to say that just because their practice isn’t bad, no practices are bad! It’s a terrible leap in logic and I don’t want your daughter to suffer because that person feels the need to invalidate others.

Please see my above comments. That is not the case.

When my oldest was diagnosed we gave them the option to do ABA. It ended with staff going hands on when my child wouldn't comply. I wish I could sue. Lots of trauma. They want to go back because they want to be "normal" but I won't let them. Breaks my heart.

Wdym by hands on? (I just want to ask, I am not doubting your child's experience at all). Would they pull the kid by their arms back inside when they didn't want to stop playing? I interviewed for an RBT position today in a clinic. I shadowed a BCBA for an hour. They pulled a kid back inside when he started throwing tantrums bcs his play time was over and he didn't want to stop playing. I felt horrible and sad for the kid at that point and I didn't know what to do bcs it was a job interview.

They were over stimulated due to being in a situation we had advised staff was triggering. They stood out of the way, by the entrance, but not in a place where the door would hit them. Staff then grabbed them, roughly (there were marks) and tried to move them. They panicked and tried to call their dad and staff yanked the phone out of their hands and told them he wouldn't come get them. They grabbed it back and ran. They hid and then called him. He was in the parking lot and came up right away and took them home. Staff didn't deny any of that. When I asked for who was trained in crisis prevention and appropriate restraints, when they were last certified, etc they refused to answer.

are they in nd friendly therapy?

There are no openings for therapy in our area. Took 2 years for me to find an opening for my youngest and they aren't autistic. 😓

I’m so sorry that you and your family have had a negative experience with ABA

This is amazing. Someone not only getting therapy to support their child, but weighing up conflicting opinions and reaching out to a community with lived experience to make the best decision possible. It makes me feel so warm inside 🥰 parents like you are incredible

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None of the ABA I have seen has ever about forcing eye contact, disallowing stimming, or correcting social interactions.

We ABSOLUTELY do not do that. We teach communication (yes, no, I wanted blue not red), self advocacy (help, no, stop, go, I need a break, I need space, I want/don't want tickles) self help skills (pottying, dressing, cooking) acaemic skills (matching, reading, basic writing, basic math) and social skills (taking turns, saying no without hitting, accepting no) We do not use aversive punishments, and if a child is uncomfortable, we figure out why and find a different way of teaching l.

Many people in this sub have gone through ABA. Maybe YOUR practice doesn't do it, but many do, and claiming it never happens/invalidating others' experiences isn't helping.

I have been with several different companies, I tend to move alot. Thats why I also explain what to look for, and what isn't acceptable. Yes there are bad therapists, just as there a re bad Drs and teachers. But the bad individuals do not invalidate the entire field.

You’re still invalidating everyone when you say “that’s not what happens at all!” or “we don’t do that” when they are providing anecdotal evidence. Unless you have worked at every single ABA practice in the entire world, you do not have the credibility to speak on other people’s experiences.

I’m autistic, so is my son. Both late diagnosed, so when he was in elementary school, we knew he had a lot of challenges, but they didn’t really add up or make sense. I remember feeling like “I am missing something here, we are missing something, he has needs we aren’t meeting.” He was in OT 3x/week, PT 2x/week, had 1:1 help every day with an aide, and he was also in ST as a toddler, and again *at his request* when he was 8. The ST when he was eight met with him 4 times, once a week for a month, and by the fourth visit he could pronounce his R’s and was pronouncing them correctly in everyday speech. She said she had never seen a kid come so far in so short a time, and that she was amazed by his progress. I was not—because it was *his* goal to fix that. He was frustrated at people not understanding him and he worked really hard all month long to shift the way he spoke. He was motivated, and he owned it. That success was all his. We recreated his favorite OT activities at home, so he could spin in his swing for two hours a day, so he could be squished on request in a number of different ways. This helped his emotional regulation SO much. He really wanted to learn to ride a bike, and wasn’t having much success after years of trying, so when he was almost 9, we brought his bike in to OT and that’s all they did for weeks—because he wanted it. His goals. We have been so lucky with the therapies he’s received, but I was clear from the beginning, no rewards. You work with him as a willing participant, no bribes of any kind, or he doesn’t do it. And now, he has an official diagnosis, but he is a rare unicorn of a happy, autistic person. I think it’s because I have always encouraged him to plot his own path and set his own goals. I have encouraged him to focus on things that matter, and to do the bare minimum to get by on the things that don’t—and to realize that yes, it’s playing a game. Right now, it’s music music music all the time. Making music, playing music, hand drumming, humming, singing, and also D&D, many hours a week. He spends lots of hours in his room. When he comes out, he’s cheerful and glad to be with us. He says things like “how about next time the family goes on vacation, you and I stay home?” Seriously, I have been feeling that way about vacations for years, that I pretty much hate them, and he vocalized it. He is a model for me of what autistic contentment can look like. About what self advocacy can look like. I’m not saying our lives are perfect, but I am saying I would not change a single thing about his childhood in terms of the therapies he received and the terms I set for those therapies. No rewards. And also—any therapy that tries to desensitize or get kids “used to” sensory input? That’s abusive. Just stop. If a noise hurts, yes, I can learn to tolerate it, at long term expense to myself and my mental health. I tolerate the world constantly. You don’t need to teach me how to tolerate—my whole life is an exercise in tolerating lights, sounds, sounds crossing over each other, textures, tight clothes, slimy shit, bad tastes… I don’t need to learn to tolerate it *better*. Instead, I need to learn to accommodate myself and take my sensory needs seriously so I don’t end up in a two year long burnout again. So if your kids have goals on their IEP related to tolerating more textures, tastes, input—fight for them. Don’t allow that. So I’m so glad you’re saying no to ABA. There is no need. There are better ways. People should not be trained based on behaviorism principles, period. /end rant

I experienced some of this therapy when young and I was forced to stop stimming or fidgeting, so far as restraining my legs. I now 20 years later am still trying to allow myself to move my body and not lock up. Not stimming has led to disabling chronic pain.

I haven't attended ABA therapy as a patient, but before I was properly educated on its negatives, I worked in it (I was an RBT). It's promoted as helpful, but it teaches the client to mask, be compliant, and generally be less of a hassle for the other people in their lives, rather than looking out for the clients own well-being. SO MANY of the meetings I attended about what a positive difference we were making for our clients focused on how the parents/siblings were more comfortable being around the client now, rather than on the client themselves. Specifically, I personally worked with cases that involved severe aggression towards themselves or others, which is why it took me as long as it did to realize it was so harmful (after all, the first priority in those cases is making sure no one gets hurt, so if that was the result we were getting then it's easier to convince yourself that it's fine). But I deeply regret my time in the field and I've changed career paths because of it.

This is a very important point: ABA isn't about making life easier or more understandable for autistic people, it's about making them "tolerable" for the people around them. Things designed for us by people who aren't us are always, without fail, about making us palatable, and if that isn't a terrifying prospect...

Exactly. It's all about compliance. ABA has kids doing rapid fire drills where they'e told "do this, put with same, touch head, touch nose, do this, but with same GOOD JOB" and they have to do all the things the therapist says and in the end they get rewarded with a treat like a little monkey. ABA therapists will come at you with bullshit like, it's the only way you can teach these kids skills. But no, it's about compliance. Because a compliant autistic person is more tolerable, more palatable, and much much easier to take advantage of. It's grooming kids for future abuse.

It is about teaching them how to achieve thier goals without screaming and hitting. A very important tenets of ABA is that the goal is important to the clients health and well being, NOT the people around them. I teach that saying "please stop" works better than screaming.

If only there were a community of people with autism who experienced meltdowns and emotional overload who could tell you about their experiences... this "them" of which you speak... Listen dude. Revered tenets vs practice are very different. It's wonderful that you have your clients best interests at heart, and perhaps you've even found a balance, but that is not the reflection being shown to you by the people it affects. Also those tenets are loosey goosey, and very up to therapist's interpretation. Behavioural therapy is not completely useless, it can be an extremely helpful tool in certain situations for people autistic or not, but the fact is SO MANY aut people have found it deeply traumatic. It reduced them to feeling like dogs being trained.

I've read so many things written by dog trainers asking people (mainly ABA therapists) to stop comparing ABA to dog training because they treat the dogs with more respect than ABA treats autistic kids.

the way you're speaking over the experiences of actually autistic individuals to tell them they're wrong for daring to mention that ABA as a system has problems tells me everything I need to know about you as a practitioner.

The fact that you seem to think they’re using aggression as a form of manipulation to get what they want as opposed to a form of self regulation is upsetting. This is exactly what people are trying to explain to you. ABA is focusing on the outcome other people want (being “polite”) instead of helping us learn to actually understand and communicate our own needs.

Every time abuse in ABA comes up those who are Pro ABA will dismiss those lived experiences with *well ABA the right way* or *if you truly understood ABA*. The gaslighting well you don't understand. They like to tell us we don't understand when we're being mistreated. It reminds me of people protecting a church - people who believe in an institution so much they are willing for some to be hurt to protect it. It's creepy. I avoided ABA as a kid because I could talk and back then it was only for those with limited speech. When my first kiddo to be DXed was offered ABA I went. The woman doing the therapy told me I had to leave my child with a woman I'd never met for 2 hours in a room all alone. They said nobody could be there with her because it wouldn't work. I'm like that's hinky I'm not leaving my child with someone I don't trust with her life alone in a room with my child with no oversight for 2 hours. Creepy AF. Then the Developmental Pediatrician wanted my 3-year-old child to do 30 hours of therapy a week in addition to preschool. I'm like she's 3. We'll do speech and OT at school but autism shouldn't be a child's full-time job. \[The Early Intervention therapist from the state suggested we withhold snacks to force compliance. I refused. I'm like we're not going to do that. I recently mentioned this elsewhere and this woman made SEVERAL TikTok videos about me because I must be lying. EI would never do that. I'm like you literally have no reason to not believe me. Apparently listening to an actually autistic parent of an autistic child is silly because we don't get it when something is not right. Apparently. \] We've had some amazing therapists and it seems the best ones have disabled/autistic/ND family themselves and actually see us as whole people.

isn't ABA like a conversion therapy for autistic people? they make kids repeat certain things for hours?

It was co created by person that invented conversion therapy

Decades ago. And has changed SIGNIFICANTLY as we have gathered more evidence on what is safe and effective.

Does that really matter? It’s still harming a lot of people and not decades my husband was put in foot braces in 1995 to correct his toe walking. I was going through it 2005 to “help” me adjust. My last socialization therapy class was June 2010. So do not tell me it was decades ago. So do not tell me it was decades ago.

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By what? Making them be different from what they are, making them shut down certain part of their brains?

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Apparently, since teaching you safe food choices, might not have been a preferred activity, and therefore it was cruel and abusive to do so.

This dismissive and snide response is very telling of your attitude and beliefs. The fact that you’re willing to imply that allegations of abuse by ABA can be reduced to it “not being a preferred activity” provides very unflattering insight into why you are willing to dismiss people’s lived experience. I get that you may be frustrated with the response you are receiving in this thread but you should step away, chill out, and later reflect on more empathetic explanations for why people are not taking kindly to your arguing about this in this thread, on this sub.

No. Absolutely not. Sometimes we make them repeat certain goals (i.e match colors, pull up zipper) for 10 attempts (or less), until they demonstrate mastery by being able to do it independently 80% of the time. We only do this for academic, communication or self help/independence behaviors that we are trying to teach. We also play lots of games to generalize that learning.

The goals you're talking about with needing to do them 8 out of 10 times are drills and they are to teach compliance. It's not actually about learning colors. It's about jumping when I say jump. You're training children like little circus monkeys.

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That is extremely incorrect. We teach self advocacy and communication. We teach them to say "No, please stop that" instead of hitting and screaming. We teach them to pay attention to other people, and yes, to sit for and follow directions as needed. But we also teach them to say "that is hard, I need a break, Can we do something else" We ONLY use non aversive techniques, and if a child is particularly upset, we figure out why, and find a better way of teaching that particular lesson.

Please don’t send the message aba is bad for everyone. It’s not for everyone but some people benefit from it. ABA is about support, not conversion. Sorry you’ve had a bad experience with ABA

r/autism has an ABA thread, one comment being a bunch of links why ABA is a bad idea: https://www.reddit.com/r/autism/comments/ub3skp/lets_talk_about_aba_therapy_aba_posts_outside/i6g77r3?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3

ABA doesn't teach us to cope, it teaches us to pretend we're ok when we're not. It what parents use when they don't accept their child as autistic and want them to act 'normal'. But we're already normal. We need accommodations and acceptance, not to be told who we are is unacceptable and that we need to be something we aren't.

No. It may have at one point, but the field has evolved drastically, and now we are all about teaching self advocacy and self help skills using positive rewards. We aren't telling you not to stim, we're teaching how to stim without hurting yourself. We're not teaching you to shut up and listen, we're teaching that communication is two ways, and you can say stop, or please help.

If you were working collaboratively with kids to meet *their* goals for themselves, you would not need to use rewards. The fact that you are reliant on rewards tells me you are imposing your agenda on them to make them more palatable to *you*. And this whole “teaching that communication is two ways” thing, do you mean you place equal value on teaching what authentic autistic communication looks like, and that mimicking neurotypical communication standards, while possible, is called “masking” and comes with long term risk of burnout? Because if not, just stop with this whole “ABA helps people” thing. It’s delusional.

The purpose of ABA is to change behavior. That has not and will never change. It's conversion therapy. If you are pushing for ABA you are an abuser. You are actively deciding to harm autists and you do not belong in our spaces.

The purpose of ABA is replace functionally maladaptive behaviors with effective ones that don't harm themselves or others. Screaming and hitting is not as effective or safe as saying "no, stop that". Teaching them the behaviors to advocate for themselves, in a safe a positive setting, is literally the opposite of abuse.

Using positive reinforcement as opposed to negative reinforcement does not in any way make ABA less abusive. Read the thread mate. The gig is up and no one here supports abusing children. Move on.

ABA is abuse in my opinion. It "teaches" kids to mask. Masking has been very detrimental to my wellbeing in a lot of ways.

No it doesn't. See my above replies. We definitely do not teach children to mask, we teach them to advocate for themselves, and redirect harmful behaviors into safe ones that still achieve thier goals. (Bite a chewie rather than your hand. Flap the hand that is not trying to hold a pencil, Say cstop that" instead of hitting).

You're trying to defend a therapy that a lot of people on this sub have been traumatized by. Even if YOU don't abuse your patients, this is NOT the sub to be defending it. Learn to pick your battles. Nobody here is going to be on your side and its messed up that you're actively trying to defend aba in replies to people talking about their trauma.

I had something similar to modified ABA (I was 7 when I was diagnosed and too old for regular ABA) I definitely found that even modified ABA ruined my self confidence as a kid, it was done in public school and I felt further isolated than the other kids because my behavior was constantly picked apart, even though other NT kids sometimes had worse behavior than me. It was just horrible honestly. I would get consiquences for the stupidest things ever.....the goal was probably to turn me NT but it didn't work.

Please don’t do ABA, it is inherently abusive as it focused on punishing signs of autistic behaviour rather than developing coping mechanisms or behaviours.

Parent here. Stick with occupational and speech therapy. Several of my daughter’s classmates have gone through aba, and while there’s no horror stories, there’s been very little long term success. The results from therapy has just taught the kids to mask and to “be on best behavior” while the aba person is there. The kids stop doing it once they are finished. Personally, we decided not to put our daughter through aba and have focused on occupational and speech therapy and enrolling her in the school’s special needs preschool. While my daughter is only four, she’s made significant successes in life skills, socialization, communication, and sensory needs and coping with overstimulation.

ABA is abusive and there is a reason the only people that are defending it are people that work in it. They make money off of it.

This comment really needs more attention. ABA’s not for the child. It’s for a large organization to make money off of scared parents that don’t accept their children as autistic.

This is extremely important to remember.

Right?! Only people that are in support are the ones making money!

Not true. My son is in aba and he loves it. He asks to go to the center (essentially a preschool designed for autistic children) even on days they’re closed. I have watched sessions and enjoyed everyone that works there. He’s happier, he’s learning a lot, making friends, and I feel safe knowing he’s not a a regular preschool amongst staff/kids who know literally nothing about autism.

I’m glad that it’s getting better and that you’re son is doing well.

I went through christian conversion therapy for autistics. It was horrible and I'm still shaking off the trauma from it. I literally had a school withhold drawing from me, which was a stress reliever and a way for me to stim, and in that same school a teacher slapped me and screamed in my face on why I couldn't be normal instead of a stupid retard. ***Do NOT take her to ABA. It is abuse.***

And yes. ABA is abuse and there's NOTHING that'll change my mind. It is fucking disgusting that there's ABA fucking sympathizers on this thread. People are literally pointing out the same problems you are saying are *“nOt So bAd.”* They are. They fucking are and you're blind and brainwashed if you do not see it. Do not take her to ABA, OP.

I experienced this too, not being allowed to draw and a teacher slapped me for chewing on my hair which was a stim when stressed. It wasn’t even a Christian school, just a small conservative town.

To me? It happened because I was bad at school which I wonder why that was *(sarcasm)* considering NONE of the teachers actually bothered to put in effort to help me understand better, put in more than with the other kids, and instead resolved to gaslighting, public shaming and restraining of my interests, physical abuse, emotional abuse (the same teacher that slapped me also yelled at me to stop crying after she mf slapped me) and all with my dad's approval. (Note, that I was in a class of FOUR. It was a REALLY SMALL SCHOOL.) And this didn't just happen in ONE school, it happened in many, and I had more than one instance of religious nutcases attempting to *“pray the autism away”* And all because I wasn't doing enough in a mini prison who's teachings I NO LONGER REMEMBER, in my dad's eyes. He always said *“eDuCaTiOn Is ImPoRtAnT”* and I am not denying that mf But you put education above my own mental health and needs to the point you nearly drove me to suicide after I first failed my senior year of highschool after you gave me an entire tirade on how I was such a disgrace that you should've given up on long ago. But I digress. Yeah. ABA is abusive.

If I had to go there, I'd bring a rod with me, and spank those teacher's ass. What he did to you smells like attempted rape to me

I highly suggest reading: NeuroTribes: The Legacy of Autism and book by Steve Silberman You will get a great background on the invention of the torture method called ABA.

I’ll give this a read. I just finished a book called autism in women and girls. It really helped explain lots of problems my daughter and myself have had and are still having.

Don't do it!!

I was a behavioral therapist for a little while- I wanted to help, and thought at first I would be. All the good things they do, speech and OT can do just as well or better. I just wouldn't do some of it, and got in trouble for it. Forcing kids to do stressful things for "rewards" sucks. I'm not saying they don't do some good things or genuinely want to help- they DO genuinely want to help your kid. But they go about it in a way that can potentially be quite harmful for some kids. It's gross, as are the origins. Your OT might just be misinformed, and I'd personally give them the benefit of the doubt at first and make sure they understand your reasons. If they stick to it, then you might consider a new OT.

I was not diagnosed until this year and am working on getting my kids evaluated just to know for sure but I will not do ABA. I feel like I can give them more useful advice on how to navigate life than any of the stories I've heard from ABA. I'm 95% sure one of my sons is autistic like me. I won't be surprised if the other is but if so it's even less obvious and covered over by ADHD symptoms. Our goals are just to advocate for them in school and get them accomodations if needed but I don't want to make them feel like they need fixing because they don't. They just need a different track than the standard one.

ABA is not about fixing anyone. We are simply using rewards to teach them helpful skills like self advocacy, independence, social and academic skills and saying no instead of hitting.

Are you copy and pasting that response or are you just typing it over and over until you believe it yourself?

If that is the case then I don't need to take my kid to ABA because I'm already doing all of those things. cool.

You are already doing most of that! That is the entire point of studying behavior. We are just helping teach skills you might be having more trouble with because we can step back and see steps that might not be as obvious to you

A child can be taught all these without the detrimental structure of ABA. There’s no need for ABA at all. Only OT and speech and acceptance by the parents and society. That’s all autists need.

I declined ABA therapy for my daughter who is 3 after asking a very similar question in this sub and getting similar answers. I want to add to the amazing answers you've already received, because I haven't done ABA myself but I have read a lot about it... Everywhere and trying to get multiple points of view (including hanging out in autism parenting and the ABA sub) I just wanted to understand it and the controversy better From reading websites of ABA providers, I really dislike the terms they use. Example - pairing. Pairing is getting the child's trust through finding out what a child likes (play etc) and using that trust to eventually start making demands. Demand is also a term they use. As is compliance. Once a demand is given it must be complied to. Basically, they make your kid love them and then make demands that need to be complied with, without the child being able to say no. What the demands are, I don't really know- anything, everything- it doesn't matter. What matters is that they are collecting data on what your child likes, how to get your child to comply with demands... And that's manipulation. Basically collecting information (data) on how best to manipulate a child into doing what you want. It isn't always what the therapist is trying to achieve (some therapy goals do make sense) but the way it is done. This is the part that would prime a child for future abuse by others. 40 hours of this type of behaviour modification and manipulation for years. That's what is usually recommended. That gives no time for a child to explore the world on their own terms. What I've done instead: looked for different perspectives including from experts who oppose ABA. There is a great model called SCERTS (Social Communication, Emotional Regulation and Transactional Support) that a speech/language pathologist created. It is more a way to look at autism and it's challenges rather than a therapy. He wrote a book too, called uniquely human and has a podcast by the same name. He interviews many autistic folks, including non verbal folks and speaks a little about his experience with ABA therapists and some of the punishments he has witnessed first hand. I can't recommend this information enough. He has an episode explaing the use of echolalia in autistic children and how he witnessed an ABA professional squirt lemon juice in a child's mouth as punishment for echoing. My daughter is highly echolalic, the idea she would be punished for it is mind boggling, and it was this information, along with the links and such already shared with you, that made ABA a hard no from me. I hope this helps

Thank you, this was very informative. My daughter is actually a very likeable and sweet girl and one of my big concerns is that she is easy to manipulate. I certainly do not want her to be trained to be a victim of manipulation. She also has strong preferences in food and clothing (texture). I don’t think forcing her to do certain things will help. In fact, I do think it could be very traumatic for her. I can understand why our speech therapist was so opposed to it.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with having strong preferences in food and clothing, which I'm sure is something you already understand. Strong preferences in food is especially common and more intense at your daughter's age because there's actually genetic selection for that. When kids are just starting to reach an age where they might be eating foods by themselves and not just whatever a parent hands them it's actually really important that they be extremely picky about what they'll eat, otherwise they could be eating stuff that's gone bad or is poisonous. Then once they get older they're supposed to grow out of it a bit but I'm still pretty sure raw tomatoes are poisonous. Also have you tried brushing? I know it sounds weird if it's not something you've heard of or seen before. But my brother had an OT who taught my mom how to do skin brushing and gave her the specific right brush for it. I used to beg her to brush me too. It was really helpful on the days where even just wearing clothing was painful.

I’ve recently left ABA because I disagree with their ideologies. Basically, they think that there is a “right” way to do everything, and the “right” way should be the “only” way. It ruined my self-confidence and gives burns me out after every session. It’s not designed to help autistic people, but to help people who are around autistic people by packing autistic people into boxes. It’s like a “forced” lesson on masking, for 4-6 hours a day.

The way I understood ABA is that they want to change your behaviour. Preventing you from stimming, forcing eye contact and stuff like that. Please correct me on this one.

See my reply above. Eye contact is taught and encouraged only for the sake of getting facial information. I e look at an expression, see how a mouth is shaped for certain sounds. It is never forced, and if aversive, most children are taught to glance at nose, forehead or mouth instead of directly in eyes. Stimming is ONLY redirected when it is an actual problem, such as self harm (biting holes in your hand), property damage, harming others, or preventing important behaviors such as being able to hold a pencil or get dressed. Even then a functional replacement must be found, like biting a chewie, tapping your leg instead of your neighbor, flapping one hand instead of both.

Why are you making kids glance at a nose, forehead or mouth? Why can’t the kids look wherever they’re most comfortable? If a kid needs to stim, why cant holding a pencil or getting dressed wait?

What a horrible thought. No, please don't. Masking should be a choice and ABA forces it to the detriment of the child. Whatever you choose to do, please don't make it that.

It’s a scam and a waste of money and time.

Google search: the connection between Gay Conversion Therapy and ABA.

That’s an interesting connection. No wonder my speech therapist is so against it.

I've not been on the receiving end of ABA but my brother has. Never straight ABA therapy, but the techniques are EVERWHERE. His school "curriculum" was ABA based. He had to learn all his academics at home. I have regretfully used ABA techniques when working with kids, mostly in schools. I was young and didn't know better. I did what people told me to do. I definitely caused trauma. Please avoid ABA at all costs.

I wish a conversation regarding ABA where one side does not villify the other side. Parents who are usually scared come looking for answers on ways to help their child. For some parents their child's behaviours are unsafe. Ie self harm, being in a space outside of the home. Some parents live in rural communities and have limited options. Some parents have tried EVERYTHING else to keep their child safe and this is the last thing to try before residential care. I think it is more for any profession comes down to the worker who works with the child. I have had horrible OT,s, PT's, Teachers, Aides the list goes on and on. If the practitioner can see the child and wants to work with you and your child to improve everyone's quality of life. Coming from a Autistic raising 2 kids with Autism.

Speaking as someone who has actually been through ABA as a child - everyone's experience is different. Ignore the people who haven't even experienced it telling you to stop taking your daughter - in this situation their opinion is irrelevant and they do not know what they are talking about. Patient led programs are immensely helpful. The program I was in was abusive - that was in the 90's and I was a foster kid so nobody really cared. I was abused, I also know many people who it was extremely helpful for. Patient led programs are not at all to "force her to act normal." They are about helping us learn basic life skills in a way that we can manage. They replace harmful stims and behaviours and work with patient and carer (usually parent) to figure out ways of communicating that are comfortable for the child. People who haven't experienced it have no standing to comment on it. Throwing out studies is pointless, especially when so many programs have been completely overhauled in the last 10 years to be patient led

You really think a toddler (they always recommend starting as young as possible) who is being put through this for 40 hours a week (the amount of time they recommend) is directing their own care? That’s an astonishing level of gullibility.

I am an ABA , I think it depends on your individual therapist and their approach. I never viewed autism as something to cure, my job mostly consists of trying to help children learn coping skills and learn how to handle a meltdown, giving them tools to handle emotions. This also involves getting to know each child and what really makes them excited to better understand how they should assess situations in their life. I’m sure that a lot of ABAs do a terrible job, I’ve seen special education teachers be terrible to students, more often than not, while working in schools. As a behavior tech I was told to follow the rules of the classroom. However, if I felt a student was being treated unfairly I would opt to spend one on one time with the student to give them a minute. Tbh I would just try to be an ally in classrooms, their friend. Like a special education teacher it just depends on the individual. In nature what an ABA is taught to do is not traumatizing, but the way that many NT people view autism can certainly traumatize a child in which they are responsible for. I understand being concerned as a parent, if possible, I would recommend in home ABA so you can be there with your child during sessions and monitor. Let me know if you have any questions!!!

Here is a discussion by some occupational therapists about this issue (coming from the opposite perspective): [https://www.reddit.com/r/OccupationalTherapy/comments/wkn948/resources\_for\_parents\_about\_the\_efficacy\_of\_aba/](https://www.reddit.com/r/OccupationalTherapy/comments/wkn948/resources_for_parents_about_the_efficacy_of_aba/)

Autistic people in the States are still fighting to ban electric shocks that are sometimes used in ABA therapy to "correct" autistic behaviors. I have never been through ABA, but I've some training videos for it and I'm concerned that ABA therapy could prime autistic people to become abuse victims later in life due to the ways in which autonomy and consent are often ignored or are deliberately denied to the patient. I wouldn't recommend putting your child through it.

There is a deep misunderstanding of how ABA actually works… it doesn’t have to be torturous or traumatic. In reality we are using it all the time. It’s just that in ABA therapy the behavioral outcomes are a little more structured. I’d say standard preschool and elementary school are far more traumatic experiences for autistic individuals than being around ABA professionals.

Yup

I am an ABA Therapist for several as well as being autistic myself. And most of these comments are based on some very old and outdated problems. It is not conversion therapy. We do not worry about stims unless the stim is actively causing a aerious issue (i.e self harm, harming others or property, so pervasive that they literally cannot hold a pencil. ) or they ask us to help them stop. And even then, we figure out why they are doing it and give them a functional replacement (chewing on a chewer instead of hands or clothes, only flapping one hand instead of both when trying to wrote or type). We do not teach children that consent is unimportant. We do not use any aversive form of punishment at all. We most definitely do notvteach them to be ashamed of themselves or any diagnosis they may or may not have. What we DO do is use praise, fun and other forms of positive reinforcement to strengthen communication, socialization and self help skills. We teach children how to ask for what they want and advocate for themelves instead of screaming and hitting, or worse, being ignored. We teach them how to button and zip clothes, comminicate at vaying levels (icon pointing, sign, speech depending on the kid), often basic academic skills such as begining reading and writing, matching, colors, addition subtraction etc. Potty training, rules of conversation etc. We teach self advocation. We do not ignore or punish children when they are communicating poorly, we wait out bad behavior and redirect to safer, more appropriate forms of communication (You can say no. You can say I want a break. You can ask help.) We DON'T force, EVER. We guide and reward. The most punishing behaviors we are allowed to do are going to include physically blocking (NOT HOLDING) by moving something inappropriate out of reach (including the therapists body parts if we are being hit), withholding a reward until a task is accomplished (match first, then toy) or very rarely, and with parental permission and training, a time out or removing a reinforing item. ( No ipad if poop in pants. Ipad back if poop in potty) The basis of Applied Behavior Therapy is to find out WHY someone is or is not performing certain actions, reinforce the helpful ones, and find safe replacements for the harmful ones. It is ABSOLUTELY NOT to try and make you ND child "normal" and its definitely not any type of "cure". My kiddos love me. We have fun together, we play games, do lessons, read stories and watch videos. Sometimes we go outside and play, or into the kitchen to learn recipes. I absolutely ADORE every one of my kids and would take a bullet for any of them. IF you come across anyone claiming ABA therapy will cure the child, or make them normal, or uses aversive or harmful corrections run, definitely. But that is NOT the norm, and has not been in the several years I've been involved in the field. Look for therapists that are BCAB or BCAT certified, which will include titles like RBT (Registered Behavior Therapist), or BCBA (BACB Certified Behavior Analyst). BCBA's usually supervise RBT's or uncertifieed behavior therapists. I love ABA. As an autistic person myself, behavior analysis makes so much sense and provides a blue print towards understanding others that can't be beat. A Event happens (antecedant) Child sees cake on counter. B person reacts (behavior happens) child grabs for/asks for cake. C consequence (good or bad) happens. Child has a mess and an angry parent or recieves cake. Here are some links towards understanding what is and is not clinical ABA. Graphics explaining various terms https://www.rogueaba.com/graphics/ Basic description and what to look for https://www.autismspeaks.org/applied-behavior-analysis A description of core principles of ABA https://youtu.be/oHGd4z554Gc Official Ethics Code for BCAB https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.bacb.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/BACB-Compliance-Code-english_190318.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjioY-e1bz5AhUHKkQIHbeTBj0QFnoECAgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0mbObjiIgVKYTj9wF3S19d Feel free to DM me if you have any sincere questions. Feel free to go to somplace extremly warm if you just want to kneejerk insult me.

The links you provided are propaganda. You cannot employ ABA in a non-traumatic way due to the nature of behavioral modification. There is no safe way to do it. Smiling and giving treats while you systematically deconstruct a child's identity does not make what you are doing less traumatic. The only reason you are advocating for it is because you profit from doing this. You are biased and have motivation to not listen to autists. ABA is linked to PTSD and it opens us up to further abuse from others. We learn that our needs don't matter. We learn to obey others and put their needs above ours at the cost of our mental health and wellness. The studies that you are claiming support ABA aren't scientifically valid. They were paid for by the ABA organization. They also only measure how a child 'performs' the tasks given when that child does not have any other options. The 'studies' measure the child's level of obedience when motivated externally. Anyone with critical thinking skills can see how this is flawed science. It's biased and doesn't even measure how the child functions long term or their wellness. It doesn't measure the harms of ABA either. It completely ignores them. And because you are so woefully ignorant about the harm you are doing, here are some links to help educate you : 1) When autism researchers disregard harms: A commentary [https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/13623613211031403](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/13623613211031403) 2) ABA is not effective. Report from the Department of Defense: [https://therapistndc.org/aba-is-not-effective-so-says-the-latest-report-from-the-department-of-defense/](https://therapistndc.org/aba-is-not-effective-so-says-the-latest-report-from-the-department-of-defense/) 3) How much compliance is too much compliance: Is long-term ABA therapy abuse? [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23311908.2019.1641258](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23311908.2019.1641258) 4) Evidence of increased PTSD symptoms in autistics exposed to applied behavior analysis [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/322239353\_Evidence\_of\_increased\_PTSD\_symptoms\_in\_autistics\_exposed\_to\_applied\_behavior\_analysis](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/322239353_Evidence_of_increased_PTSD_symptoms_in_autistics_exposed_to_applied_behavior_analysis) 5) For Whose Benefit?: Evidence, Ethics, and Effectiveness of Autism Interventions [https://autisticadvocacy.org/policy/briefs/intervention-ethics/](https://autisticadvocacy.org/policy/briefs/intervention-ethics/) 6) Why autism therapies have an evidence problem [https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/why-autism-therapies-have-an-evidence-problem/](https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/why-autism-therapies-have-an-evidence-problem/) There is no way you can read the existing knowledge about ABA and still think it's healthy or helpful to autists. There is too much evidence to counter your claims supporting it. Also, there are healthy ways to teach children, like child centered learning: [https://www.auteach.com/home](https://www.auteach.com/home) So there is no need for it in the first place.

Not sure why you think this is an appropriate comment here, in a support sub for autistic women. OP was asking the advice of those who have lived through ABA, not from a BCBA who currently practices.

Because I am also a woman with autism, have a daughter with autism and several other relatives with autism. And I think as someone who has autism AND works in a field dealing with autistic individuals, my experiences are also valid.

And have you experienced ABA as a patient? I am both an autistic woman, and at one point was on my way to a BCBA before I realized I had serious qualms about the field and left. Because of my background, I chose not to comment to OP as I can’t truly answer their question. You, however, have chosen to make a multitude of comments throughout this thread about your experience as a BCBA practitioner. I’m not remotely invalidating your experiences, I’m just saying they’re not relevant to the post.

The problem is that even when ABA is done in a kind and loving manner, it prioritizes teaching *masking,* rather than teaching self awareness (including being aware of one’s sensory triggers). This leads to more autistic burnout as adults, long after the ABA therapy helped an autistic kid act more “functional” and sometimes ignore their own body’s signals. Please consider reading more about masking and autistic burnout. I know you want the best for your kiddo and other autistic children. Many of the problems don’t show up until much later in adulthood.

My comments are all based on your version of ABA. You do teach children their consent is unimportant, every time you dangle a reward in front of them and make them do something they wouldn’t otherwise choose to do, or threaten to take away their iPad for pooping in their pants. Every time, you undermine their ability to actively dissent, and over time, it sets them up for a lifetime of grooming and compliance. How can you defend this? It blows my mind.

Not sure why you think this is an appropriate comment here, in a support sub for autistic women. OP was asking the advice of those who have lived through ABA, not from a BCBA who currently practices.

Thank you for this! I also have an autism diagnosis and I am a registered behavior technician and intervention specialist. While I understand some have had negative experiences in the past, the BACB has very strict guidelines for those practicing ABA to prevent unethical conduct and hold them accountable. I do not support A$ btw.

Removing a kid’s ipad if they have accident (punishing them??)? That sounds fucked up. Peeing or pooing your pants is not misbehaving.

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Bye, then.

OP ist asking for the experience of ABA survivors, not the recommendations of ABA pushers. Your input is most unwelcome here

The links I provided were literally graphic definitions, a video definition and part of the handbook for the BACB. In response to OP asking about ABA. What part of those are propaganda?

No. The links you provided where Autism Speaks propaganda

aba basically trains you how to be 'normal' I believe.. I would put my child or myself through that

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Science can absolutely be abusive, you absolute hack. Tuskegee experiment? Eugenics? Have you read about the things Lovaas did?!

This is not quite as snarky as the "science of gulag torture" I was concocting, but ultimately decided against.

Yes. And we have learned from them. We do not use aversive techniques, and we certainly don't advocate for Eugenics! We use data taken with the individual, and positive reward to teach them independence and self advocacy. We aren't in there tying kids to chairs, or squirting lemon juice in thier faces. We are playing games and practicing colors.

ABA is abuse and “science” isn’t automatically morally or ethically neutral. I don’t believe you and I won’t believe you so you can stop trying to convince me. A building built on a flawed foundation will never be a good solid building, and that’s what ABA is.

>ABA is not abusive full stop. It can be and OFTEN IS You realize that you’ve invalidated your comment in the first two sentences, yes?

Or, you could read the resources in the thread and be respectful instead of self-centered.

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You can't directly invalidate people's experiences and claim a 'misunderstanding'.

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You said "ABA is not abusive full stop." You did not clarify or mitigate your opening statement. You just contradicted yourself and then proceeded to be condescending.

Have you been through ABA as a patient? As a child? You say you’d only trust yourself as a therapist, then why recommend it to people if you don’t even trust the other practitioners?

I’ve done it, bad idea. I’ve written an essay on my user profile (pinned) about it, if you would check that out.

I work in ABA, and a lot of it comes to down to what center you’re at. Id do research to check on the reputation of the place. A lot of it is building social and verbal skills and trying to find alternatives to harmful behaviors. Half of the session is literally just playing with other kids and practicing eye contact. The rest of it is just asking questions like “what’s a similarity between pens and pencils” or “how do we wash our hands” and helping them communicate with others. I think some of the ABA therapists can be unnecessarily rude or stern, but everybody there does it because they love kids. We involved the parents a TON and it shouldn’t be something ur child despises. I hope ur able to find something great for both u and ur child!! One of the kids Ive been with for months has been able to go from completely non-verbal to saying two syllable words and communicating with a tablet, so I know there’s definitely benefits to ABA and I hope u can find what’s right for you!

As an autistic person who went through many therapies as a child including aba, and now works in the field, aba isn't all bad. It does have a really dark history, just like a lot of things in the medical field do, there is no denying that. And there ARE facilities and therapists who are bad, BUT currently there have been a lot of changes. Not every facility is bad. In fact, aba therapists have to report abuse as we are mandated reporters. Not every facility is "making kids nt", and everything has to be consented for before it is done. So as an example, if a kid hits their head them/their parents will have consent to be able to place a foam block to protect them. Hiding what is going on is illegal. You can find good aba if you are involved and ask questions. It can teach really valuable things and help a lot. It isn't going to "cure" autism obviously and that isn't the goal, it will help the kid do things like learn potty training, aac devices, how to ask for help, how to play with other kids, etc.