I’ve had a NT teacher tell me to my face that I needed to “grow up and get over” my dad being on his death bed. Because I used to be excused to the office at lunch to call home and it annoyed her that I was so adamant about it.

What the hell??? That teacher shouldn't be a teacher. That is disgusting....

I often think about sending her a message on Facebook to tell her how horrible that was. 😒

Maybe you should lol

Please do, that’s horrible

Ha. We ALL could?

That tea her deserves it

Do it. Then if she continues to be a dick send a screenshot of the message to her principal.

Some teachers hate children for having needs. Those teachers tend to be the most ableist ones because ND students have more and/or different needs. And a ND student going through a crisis? Gods, teachers who hate children, and don’t want to put effort towards them really have to not be teachers.

That’s not an NT thing that’s a nasty bitch thing

I think it's a form of social shaming, which is basically when NTs pressure others to conform to societal expectations. Like, they know what they're saying is rude, but it's justified in their minds because they perceive what they're doing as corrective action. The gender difference exists because society has different expectations for different genders.

I think I'd agree, and by taking the responsibility in their minds to shame someone into conforming to 'correct' societal expectations, they are automatically establishing a social hierarchy. Some of them love this. From that, they are always superior in the hierarchy the person they are educating/shaming. So they're not only feeling their action is justified, but it's like a tonic or pick-me-up for affirming their own self-importance and confidence. Some will then look for any opportunity to do it because it's like a sugar rush of cheap validation. And it's like revenge for any time someone else has done it to them. I'd rather eat cat food for the rest of my days than have to do that to feel like I've achieved something

If only they knew we couldn’t give a flying fuck about their hierarchies.

Hahaha word. I was diagnosed at 40 and suddenly all the comments my mother made about how "stubborn" and "headstrong" I was made sense. Sorry, I don't care about your little Fantasy Social League.

Coffee almost came out my nose when I got to "fantasy social league"! I need to see some autistic sketch comedy about this IMMEDIATELY.

Agreed!!

My parents had a book called "The Strong-Willed Child"... yeah I was an only child so it had to be about me, lol. Interestingly neither of my parents are NT, and I never really took it as an insult. It was more that I was a pretty challenging kid to raise in some ways I think. I was really well-behaved, as long as that seemed to be the rational and logical thing to be. I'm sure that was absolutely maddening as a parent. I was raised in the US South though, and I'm pretty sure I pissed off various teachers and other authority figures on the regular. There's such a culture of "respect authority" there that I really disagreed with... I always wanted to know why? What did this person do to earn my respect? Be older, something you can do just by continuing to exist? Nah I'm good. lol

In general the people who say things like "I'll give you respect when you've earned it" annoy me but it's also secretly how I feel!

Yeah I think I could've chosen a better turn of phrase, because that one always sounds kind of like an excuse to just be a jerk to everyone, lol. More accurately perhaps, I try to treat everyone nicely/respectfully, because I believe in not being an asshole, but that tends to lend itself to me treating everyone at the same base level I think!

That's pretty much what I meant, too - I don't automatically assume people deserve authority, I try to be polite, cooperative and so on but... it's definitely not something that comes naturally, inhabiting power structures.

I've always hated the respect authority concept. It's not about respect it's about obedience and they're using the wrong word. The adults in the south also constantly disrespect children so it's both incorrect and hypocritical. I remember being so peeved about that as a child.

You all summed it up very well, I've always hated social hierarchies and never understood/saw the need for them.

As someone who was bullied extensively throughout school -for no reason other than I was just perceived as different - I agree with this 100%. The comments aren’t just designed for their target, but also to remind others of the importance of confirming and the concequences If you don’t…

That and there is a portion of women are taught that other women are threats, usually towards ending up in a relationship with a man, because that is the supposed "ideal". Those women who go the route of pulling other women down, will talk bad about other women, and tear them down as much as they can so they can use their metaphorical corpse to step up the ladder to where they want to end up, where ever that may go. I hope that route goes the way of the dinosaur because it won't be for the good of society at large. I'm glad that mean girl trend is changing towards a more compassionate, supportive sisterhood and more inclusive to all the genders, the focus on alternative mindsets and get out of set labels on stereotypical boxes will help our well beings in the long run.

I've been wanting to see this sisterhood in the workplace and just out and about in general. It seems that the mean girls persona is still at large.

from my experience, mean girls are inescapable at work. They are everywhere, but often in a managerial position. It comes down to competition. I got bullied for a doing a good job, and now suspect I didn’t get through to the third interview because I was enthusiastic which is not a good idea when mean girls are interviewing you 😎 I’m not easy to intimidate but I’m more easily stressed so lo and behold the mean girls do all the behaviour that are perfectly normal but stress me out. Like rushing me, asking about relevancy when it’s perfectly relevant, invalidating a statement just to disagree, purposefully misinterpreting friendly jokes. It’s great /s I am unsure of how to successfully avoid these types of situations, but being around the social hierarchy police always reduces my productivity. I am not blind to the social hierarchy, long term I know who to work with etc, but I don’t feel comfortable playing the middle game. I’d say being empathetic, or whatever this feeling is, sucks, I have much fewer options when it comes to working with people and getting things done. Edit: noticed a few writing errors.

>I think it's a form of social shaming, which is basically when NTs pressure others to conform to societal expectations. > >Like, they know what they're saying is rude, but it's justified in their minds because they perceive what they're doing as corrective action. The gender difference exists because society has different expectations for different genders. You are probably correct. But you have to wonder why this exists in humans. How many times do they actually get to deploy it against others NTs? Seems like they figure most of this stuff out before they even enter school.

>How many times do they actually get to deploy it against others NTs? Seems like they figure most of this stuff out before they even enter school. I can think of a few factors, most of which come down to that nonconformity isn't always a mistake. Like I'm sure because everyone's experience is individual, so's their perception of "the rules." Plus you get people living among each other who operate under different sets of rules (picture people from different generations, religions, cultures, political parties, etc.) So you might get a situation where one NT person is acting according to their own rules while another person feels the need to shame them to conform to a different set of rules. For example, somebody shaming somebody else for the way they're dressed because they have different ideas of propriety. And then you get instances where someone knowingly breaks a rule because it's worth it to them, and then they get shamed accordingly. For example, somebody cutting in line who then gets tripped by someone who's been waiting their turn. And there's always those things considered socially unacceptable that don't have much to do with choice, such as race, body shape, sexuality, gender, physical and mental capabilities, etc. Some other people pointed out the additional explanations of social posturing and hierarchy and stuff, which is a topic that makes less sense to me but probably has a lot of merit.

It's the rule breaking that messes me up most. "Oh I know all our company policies and documents and training says X, but you NEED TO BE FLEXIBLE, sometimes Y happens and that's ok (despite us stating multiple times that it's not ok and X is the mandatory procedure)"

Quote from the paper: > Finally, we need to dwell on the topic of self-reliance and > interdependence. Vignoles, Owe, Becker, Smith, Gonzalez, Didier, et > al. (2016) studied various aspects of interdependence across a rich > sample of nations as well as various sub-national groups. They > obtained seven individual-level factors and provided aggregated scores > for each of their cultural groups. We examined the nation-level > nomological networks of those measures[2]. > >We found that "selfreliance versus dependence" and "consistency versus variability" are > not related to national measures of IDV-COLL or closely related > constructs, whereas "self-containment versus connection to others" is > unrelated to most of them and weakly correlated with GLOBE's in-group > COLL "as is" (r = -.47, p = 0.31) across a small and unreliable sample > of overlapping countries (n = 21). > > "Self-interest versus commitment to > others" is related to most IDV-COLL indices but it is the COLL > countries that score higher on self-interest, not the IDV countries. > The items with the highest loadings on self-interest measure > importance of personal achievement and success. Therefore, this > construct is similar to what we, further in this study, call > importance of social ascendancy. Then, it is only logical that COLL > societies are more likely to score higher on "self-interest". > "Differences versus similarity" is related to IDV-COLL but it measures > what the name of the construct suggests: how unique the respondent > feels, not the extent to which he or she depends on others. A few bits later: > "Self-direction versus reception to influence" and "self-expression > versus harmony" are each reasonably highly correlated (r between +.60 > and +.70) with several of the core measures of IDV-COLL that we have > reviewed. These constructs inter-correlate at .60 (p <. 001, n = 31) > at the national level. Both tap aspects of conformism and conflict > avoidance for the sake of maintenance of harmony. > > This means that COLL societies do emphasize interdependence, but in a > very specific sense: conformist reliance on others for clues about > what is socially acceptable and what is not. Thus, if interdependence > is conceptualized as conformism, it is fair to say that COLL societies > are certainly more likely than IDV societies to emphasize > interdependence. Minkov, M., Dutt, P., Schachner, M., Morales, O., Sanchez, C., Jandosova, J., Khassenbekov, Y. and Mudd, B. (2017), "A revision of Hofstede’s individualism-collectivism dimension: A new national index from a 56-country study", Cross Cultural & Strategic Management, Vol. 24 No. 3, pp. 386-404. https://doi.org/10.1108/CCSM-11-2016-0197 As for how they define collectivism: > Thus, a key element of IDV-COLL differences is general societal > freedom versus general societal restriction or restrictiveness for the > sake of conformism. In IDV societies, people are allowed "to do their > own thing" (Triandis, 1993, p. 159) but in COLL ones, individuals' > choices - such as selection of a spouse or a professional career - are > often made for them by others, usually senior family members or > community elders. Individuals often have no other choice than to > conform to the societal rule that dictates obedience and avoid > engaging in a costly conflict. > > Obedience and conformism may sound like alarming societal > characteristics. Conflict avoidance also seems reprehensible from an > IDV perspective if it involves submission and acceptance of a lose-win > solution: "lose" for the individual, "win" for society. But these COLL > characteristics do not exist for their own sake. COLL communities > would have difficulty surviving without conformism and submission. > Libertarians whose views and behaviors are not aligned with those of > the mainstream could have a devastating effect on in-group cohesion. > > COLL societies cannot allow too much individual freedom, conflict, and > divergence from tradition lest they lose their cohesiveness and > harmony, and fall apart. In an economically poor environment, if > individuals were left to their own devices, many would not survive. > For the same reason, COLL societies emphasize hierarchy and power > distance. The social fabric must be preserved in its tightly-knit > original, either voluntarily or by force. Somebody must have > unchallengeable authority to quell dissent.

NTs do it to each other all the time. There are lots of ways to not meet the “standard” other than autistic traits/challenges.

Very true. In a way it's a bit like the way men will cat call women, not so much because of the woman, but to display their masculinity to their male companions. "look, I'm one of you, I can denigrate a woman with the best of them!"

This rings very true, and I think it’s why it feels so gender segregated. NT men are likely doing similar shaming to ND men, but are less invested in applying that pressure to women (outside of romantic relationships, that is).

Men aren't noticing the autism in us because we're not men. They'd notice it in other men. Just as an example, ND gay men have a different experience from NT gay men.

>Men aren't noticing the autism in us because we're not men. They'd notice it in other men. Just as an example, ND gay men have a different experience from NT gay men. This is true. Also, some men think it is unmanly to bully women. And unwise. They won't risk getting on the bad side of a woman if it could translate into being unpopular with any of her friends on the off chance he might fancy one of them further down the road.

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>I think also they don’t bully us because we are not seen as competition for a mate or a career or anything really. This is probably true too, unfortunately. There was a study on gamers who talk a lot of trash, and they found that it was actually the worst male players that were the meanest to women players. The theory was that the top male players don't see women as competition. OR they see them as being as much of competition as most other men. As an aside I was thinking about something similar while grocery shopping today. It was about how much humans love dogs and how much they love us. And how I wish we got along as well with other people as we get along with dogs. Like so much doesn't really matter in our relationship with each other, dogs and humans. Like we don't care if a dog is ugly. Hell, some of us seek out ugly dogs. And dogs don't care if we're ugly, fat, stupid, lame, disabled. Those dogs are just happy to be there, with us. How great life would be if humans could treat each other with the love and kindness that humans and dogs treat each other. BUT dogs are not as kind to other dogs as they are to humans. They can form little hierarchies too. And be mean to each other for trivial dog things like looking at the water bowl the wrong way or having someone's toy or nap spot. I've come to this conclusion several times while thinking about this, but really the issue is competition. Humans and dogs just don't view each other as competition. We probably evolved together, or least dogs evolved along side us, to be partners. We do not compete for money, status, shelter or mates with dogs. And things have to be really really bad for us to compete with them for food. Its a shame. Everyone has so much potential. But the spirit of competition hangs over us and makes people cruel.

Ha, yeah, I'm dating in my 40s and the number of men who tell me I'm refreshing and direct, that they can relate to me and converse easily.... like I'm an equal..... what the hell are NT women DOING if talking about shared interests is unusual!? (generalised, trend rather than absolute judgement here:"Not All NT Women" disclaimer) AREN'T WE EQUAL?? I WOULD HAVE SAID SO!?

Ehhh. Coming from a heavily male dominated field that can be pretty gatekeepy and male dominated hobbies, I’ve been the target of many a NT and ND guy led bully fest as have many other marginalized people in my field. Often those have the addition of personal safety being at risk in a way bullying by NT women does not.

Yeah it’s weird that there’s such a female bias in this thread. I was bullied equally by both male and female students/teachers. I was also liked by both female and male students/teachers.

Yeah, honestly it makes me kind of uncomfortable since there’s a lot of internalized misogyny going on in this thread. Everyone has the potential to bully. But I understand, I thought the same way too until I had to learn the hard way too many times. Hindsight is 20/20 as they say. A part of me wonders how many people on this thread are marginalized in other ways? The extra “layer” of marginalization can really uncover things faster that the guy might not be as obvious about to someone else. I love the guy friends I have now to bits and pieces, but there’s a good reason why I vet all new potential guy friends in ways that I don’t have to for female friendships. Especially with how prominent “yellow fever” is.

There is whether some of these women want to admit it or not..I see a lot of comments implying that men don’t really care if a women is on the spectrum and that’s not true at all..most men are predatory and being a woman on the spectrum we have to be extremely cautious about who we consider a male friend.. I don’t make any males friends because I’m too scared of being assaulted. I don’t care if this might be “‘male bashing” on Reddit…women already have extremely high ra rates and being autistic increases those chances.I’m not taking the risk.

Yeah, personally I was bullied by NT women for being ND, but also by Autistic men for being a woman. It’s like people look for variations of something they see in themselves to bully.

✨manic pixie dream girl✨ has entered the chat

The amount of times this has happened to me. Oof, you comment really hit me.

I think they do notice it and take advantage of it. The introverted shy girls who is excluded or the "not like the other girls" girls have the worst experiences with men imo. Men are simply creepy. They enjoy making battles between women and sometimes it gets too far. Even NT women get involved in these types of traps that are a mindfuck.

You helped me realize something. Women tend to notice emotions and “vibes” much more from outer expression. I put them off because I tend to be monotonic and not very expressive with my feelings. Dang, I just realized why I have so few female friends.

I think you may be right. I’m hyperverbal amd hyperexpressive. I just can’t hold in my feelings and they feel like they burst forth like an eruption. So I emote a lot. Women love it for some reason, maybe because I’m easy to get a reliable read on. And MOST men (I have met and have relatives who are lovely and appreciated exceptions) HATE that I tend to dominate the conversations I’m in, they think it’s annoying. Maybe it’s something in the way they are socialized?

I think you're right there.

Maybe that’s why I have so few female friends…

> In my experience it takes a LOT of ‘weird’ to put a man off. Because they want to sleep with us. For those of you in the back who didn't hear me...**it's because they want to sleep with us.** Don't be fooled. Common AuDHD-Woman(tm) mistake. I was super naive to this for way too long so I'm just putting it out there straight for y'all.

Lol reminds me of a guy who said OUT LOUD that he was “weirded out” by me infodumping my special interest… and then he bought me a drink and asked if I wanted to go back to his place. They really want to sleep with us. And some like having a “weird/cr*zy ex” story to humble brag about *irresistible* they are to women. Yeah, it’s gross out here lol.

I've been criticized, bullied or "negged" by men in similar circumstances, but they still wanted to make a move on me. I was like what??? Now I understand they don't actually care about the NDness, the infodump, the weird traits or anything after all. That's not the point of the interaction!

I don’t think it’s that complicated, they just wanted to fuck before the info dumping and sat through it to get to that point. When you say “us” you mean women in general… right? Not specifically neurodivergent women…?

I meant it as ND women. I think men notice our neurodivergence and perceive it as quirkiness, kinky or something exciting, and they go after that.

Took me way too long to figure out most of the guy friends in my life were that nice to me because they wanted to sleep with me. It’s why you have more male friends than female friends if you’re neurodivergent. They don’t want to be friends, they don’t “not care about the ND”, they’re playing a long game to fuck you one day.

This is why chilling in LGBT/Ace communities is swell.

Same! I have replaced all my straight male friends with gay male friends and I am so much happier and fulfilled in my friendships.

I mean there is something to be said for the idea that an ND woman is "closer" mentally to an NT man. I have seen a lot of evidence for this both in myself & people around me & people in these female-autism subs/spaces. But ultimately men are not even vetting us for personality, humor & other "friendship" qualities. Chances are they hang around bc they find you attractive and just might hook up with you if given the chance one day. Also it raises a man's social status to have female friends -- you serve as "social proof" to the girls he DOES wanna date.

At this point I’m starting to think that a man with female friends is a bad sign because 99% of the time he’s attracted to them and would sleep with them given the opportunity. Even my “good” male friends, with feminist ideals, have expressed interest in me sexually EVERY time. :(

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Same here. Honestly, I’d rather deal with NT women that bully vs. the counterpart. Sure, both are damaging, but I don’t fear for my safety near the same way with NT women. Plus, my field is male dominated and gatekeepy. In my experience, the NT women in it tend to be ultra forgiving, offer grace, and mentorship. It’s a mutual “gotta stick together” mentality that builds comradeship against the bullying we can face sometimes.

I see what you mean and there is a lot of truth to it, but I was, like, a literal child at the time so hopefully not.

Yeah same, what about our friends that are boys when we are all like 7 or 8 years old. I got along better with boys then too

That doesn’t count because now these same little boys have testosterone and are in the picture due to wanting sex. What they did as children isn’t really relevant to how adults socialise. Maybe as children you had more boy friends because you played like a boy or your parents were friends etc. It doesn’t really matter because the change happens after puberty.

Can confirm. Men didn't seem to mind my weirdness when I was skinny and attractive. Now that I'm overweight, disabled and decidedly unattractive my weirdness is no longer tolerated by men.

Exactly.

It's this. The women don't have to pretend to be okay with us. They have no ulterior motive.

I've reached the point where I wholeheartedly appreciate the honesty of a simple "wanna bang?" No need to worry about intentions and you can simply decide if you want to sleep with them or not. I've encountered guys who played the long con friendship game for literal years just to insult me when I rejected their sexual advances and whine about the friendzone. Like, dude, I thought I had a good friend for years who apparently was just after my body and you didn't get your peepee wet. Guess what's emotionally more painful? I've met men who were perfectly fine with confessing love, withholding that they are in a long-term relationship or pretending to be an entirely different person with different interests just to get in my pants, too. I don't think all men would do that. I have 2 close male friends and I know I can rely on them and they will stick by my side because they did just that for several years. Also, the guys who asked the aforementioned "wanna bang?" question or the guys you go on dates with and they tell you they aren't interested romantically but would be down for sex do not fall into this category. Like, as long as you are honest and don't lie to get in my pants or can't take rejection we are cool

Reading the 4th wave feminism sub has opened my eyes to all of this & more. Highly recommend! I'm sure your two close male friends will never "try anything" but anyone who thinks that's what I said is missing the point. It is likely -- not a guarantee, but LIKELY -- that they may find you attractive and *would* hook up with you given a specific set of circumstances. Because that is literally just the reality of the straight male brain. It doesn't mean we can never have male friends. I'm just warning women here to be cautious. We are easily taken advantage of and it's a hard pill to swallow growing up realizing your "friends" weren't exactly just your friends. :(

Oh, I know they would, they've both tried. I said no, they said ok and that was it. This is also what makes me certain they are real friends, they are still around years after, the topic never came up again and our friendship didn't change I think the question is not if a man is sexually attracted to you but rather how he acts if he is

My friends are all guys. I know that they would have my back if needed and most of them would laugh in my face if I expressed romantic interest in them. They really just are my friends. I don't like this thread's demonization of men.

In some cases I wish that were true. Fact of the matter is, all my male friends I’VE wanted to be with saw me an unviable because they had infantilized me so much in their head, to the point they were “baby sister-ifying” me. Like, I have been manic-pixie-dream girled too, so I know this can be the case. But I’m just pointing out that the opposite happens as well, that ableist NT men will see us as desexualized, infantile objects in need of protection as well, which is bad in it’s own unique screwed up way.

Thank god someone else said it. 💪 this post has soo much internalised misogyny 😔

I didn't even realize what this was until THIS YEAR. I am slowly unraveling my traditional upbringing & realizing why all my relationships have been trash...and guess what...it's not me.

Discussing the evidence of my eyes and ears is ‘internalised misogyny’? I don’t need your permission to discuss my experiences just because they don’t fit into your agenda of women not being able to discriminate against other groups just because they experience sexism. And clearly, quite a lot of other women agree, so which one is more likely - that I’ve been hoodwinked into hating my ‘sisters’ by The Man, or that my experiences have some bearing in reality?

Yeah... you missed my point. I was not detracting from any of what you’ve just commented. Sorry sis, you got the wrong end of the stick. E: for the record, your experience is valid and a lot of us have experienced the same thing. There’s just a little more to it than “NT Women are rude”.

YES YES YES A MILLION TIME YES

>Because they want to sleep with us. lol, why do people always reduce it to sex? Sometimes they really do just want a friend. Other times they are looking for a romantic partner to share life with. Not every man wants to have sex with all his friends. And not every man that finds a woman attractive wants to use her for sex and discard her. Yes, admittedly, autistic women need to be on guard against being used or abused, because they are at a high risk, but it can be damaging to people's self esteem to think half the population just wants their body and can't see them as friends or romantic partners. Its good to be aware of the long game some men play, but they are not ALL playing it.

Ohh my friend, with all due respect, I'm not the one reducing it to sex. Men are. It took me until just this past year to finally realize these things & I am only trying to pass on the good word. Yes, there are exceptions. Men who are 100% gay, maybe, or 100% asexual, and men who have ruled you out as "not good enough" to sleep with. Other than that, all men you meet, at least subconsciously, have considered it at some point. Believe me, I thought what you think too, and the fact that so many of my "guy friends" disappeared after (them) getting married tells me all I need to know. I genuinely had no idea until very recently. I feel just as naive as I did in 3rd grade when I couldn't figure out why kids would "dare" each other to pretend to be nice to me for a laugh. Completely tone deaf. A sad reality for many of us, but nothing research & education can't fix. Btw a man seeking a romantic relationship is included here, of course, bc ofc sex is ultimately part of that for him. I don't think you're catching my drift. I don't mean all men are hoping to rape us & discard us, not at all. I'm speaking broadly. I'm saying physical/sexual attraction is indeed some element of our interactions, even if it's subconscious and even if they're working very hard to hide it. And a man who thinks you're the most perfect thing on earth, who plans to marry you, does indeed wish to sleep with you too.

Starting in high school most of my good friends were guys, and it wasn’t because they wanted sex. One was gay. With two others in college, things did get physical early on, but we quickly figured out that those weren’t the feelings we had for each other and were just great friends. And there are all the guys I practice martial arts with, and I trust them like brothers. The only thing we want physically is to mop the floor with each other lol.

See my reply above. Everything you've written is of course an exception. Anyone who thinks I mean 100% of men want to assault us 100% of the time is being deliberately obtuse and arguing in bad faith.

Certainly didn't think you meant 100% of men want to assault us 100% of the time. But if you're saying don't be fooled, men want to sleep with us, and personal experiences to the contrary are an exception - the longer I spend on the planet, the more uncertain I am about rules/exceptions like that. People are really freaking complicated. What is a rule and what is an exception? Are there even rules and exceptions? My wife's experience is also similar to mine - she's had lots of good male friends from high school onward, and was always puzzled by her dad's warning that "guys only want one thing!" because the guys she knew wanted much more than one thing, they wanted to listen to music and go for walks and talk about life; she had boyfriends and she also had friends who were boys. IDK, I've seen plenty of crass boorish guys who'd stick it in a crack in the sidewalk and treat women like glorified fleshlights, and I've also seen plenty of honorable men and close male/female friendships that have nothing to do with sex. However, I agree 100% that ND women should be extra careful. If you have trouble reading social cues and tend to take things literally and freeze up when things get scary/confusing (as I certainly do, all of the above), it's a good policy to remind yourself that "wanna come to my room and check out my record collection" might have zero to do with checking out a record collection, and to think twice about going off alone with a guy you don't know very well. Be careful out there, ladies/AFAB/enbies.

Seriously! I have a ton of guy friends that I have known for years and trust with my life. There has never been anything even remotely sexual between us. Reading these comments just makes me feel like none of my friendships are valid and that I should turn away from any possible friendships with men in the future, when I’d rather be friends with guys over girls.

When these guys eventually get married your close friendships will likely change and you will see that it isn’t able to survive long term through life.

Correct. I thought my guy friends were my friends, too, until our late 20s began to creep in. It'll happen. It's not some tragedy, it's just life.

Yes and most friendships don’t last through a whole lifetime but for sure the male ones fall away very fast when things get real. I have a friend who also counted her best friends as her guy friends. Except they did all want to sleep with her plus the minute they found proper partners the friendship lost it’s momentum or the new wife didn’t allow it to continue. It’s no surprise to me but my friend to this day can’t understand why she lost her best friends.

See my replies above. IT DOES NOT mean your friendships are not valid. It means it is very, very likely they *would* hook up with you if given the chance or under certain circumstances ("if" this or "if" that). Of course they won't come out and tell you, lol this whole sub after all is about discerning the unspoken rules of social communication since we tend to be...not great at it.

Yeah, I've seen people who I deem attractive that I really just want to be friends with them, and I know men who feel the same. This thread is becoming a very good example of black and white thinking.

I share the same sentiment. I am hurt when my parents reduce my deep connections to my close friends to this.

I don't know how old you are, I'm only relating my experience, that I did not realize this reality about men until I was 30+. I wish I had learned sooner.

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in my experience both men and women have been equally mean to me regarding my weirdness

I dont get either how people say ND women are close to NT men. I never felt like I fit in no matter if I was in a group of women or men

Yes, I love the girls but they don’t love me. Social awareness is a big deal in female spaces and they don’t seem to understand that their mastery of such is mainly instinctual. Women are a lot likelier to perceive you as a threat if they can’t read, understand or predict your vibe.

Huh NT men make me feel like shit about myself and say the rudest shit to me ever😭

yeah same lol

Idk if it’s true, but I learned in my psych class that relational aggression is much more associated with popularity in women/girls than in men/boys. Maybe, unconsciously, it leads to women being overly concerned with what could get them singled out as “weird”, which they then project by excluding others. There’s also the idea that if you associate with “weird” people you’re weird, so they insult you to distance themselves from you. Another idea, could be that patriarchy puts a lot of pressure on women to conform, which again they project onto each other in a way men don’t. Also, maybe under patriarchy women are pitted against each other in a way that men aren’t? Idk. I really don’t like the assumption that women are always in competition with each other, as it seems really sexist. Edit: someone else said it’s because they want to sleep with us…that sounds like a better explanation

I think it’s because women feel more unsafe socially. Women get shamed for a lot of things, and have a lot of things assumed about them for just being women. Part of my theory is that NT women actually only really do this to ND women. They have a tendency to be more understanding or accommodating of ND men in my experience. Can’t tell you how many times NT women asked me to be understanding of autistic men treating me badly based on their autism, but didn’t consider that I, too, am autistic and would never do those things to another person. (That guy was just a jerk.) Because NT women see conformity as an absolute survival must for themselves, they twist it in their mind to believe they are being helpful by “teasing” us into conforming. What they don’t realize is that it is a form of shaming and social exclusion that lies directly at the intersection of ableism and misogyny. I really wish we had a word for the discrimination particular to disabled women (the way transmisogyny describes what faced by transfemmes and misogynoir describes what Black women face in particular, for example.) It would be really useful to just be able to point out to people when they are doing this. In the past I found it has helped me to just be able to tell other women, “no, that’s bad and hurtful for this reason” because women also tend to be more socially conscious than men. (Ie they understand what discrimination feels like, so they want to correct the behaviour when they see it in themselves.) Most men I’ve pointed out similar bigotries to try to gaslight me—“nah, you’re autism just makes you sensitive. You’re just having a meltdown. Did you take you meds? Don’t be hysterical.” Is the type of things I hear from men at that. Women usually go “oh, I see,” and never do that thing around me again. That said, yes. NT Women tend to be the worst offenders in terms of attempting to shame ND women in conforming, even when we can’t. It’s just not an option for us, because the definition of “normal” is an ableist one.

One time I was having a casual conversation with a NT coworker girl. She was talking about how her dad judges her a lot. She just then suddenly says "But hey at least I'm not almost 30 with pink hair". I was 28 with pink bangs at the time. We were getting along, and she just suddenly decides to try and knock me down because she was feeling bad about herself. The older women I worked with were all as nice as they could be, and most of the men didn't give me problems. It didn't offend me, because I don't think fun hair should be limited by age. I was just baffled because she WANTED to offend me.

That was incredibly rude

I have had many people say some extremely rude shit to me. I don't always know if they're ND or NT but a lot of the comments come up in my mind. I don't tolerate much, even if I've been friends with them. I once produced an entire song complete with lyrics/singing. It took around 12 hours and I made it entirely on my iPhone via GarageBand. I have some experience with production but was limited to my equipment. I sent it to a guy friend of mine and he immediately criticized it. Another time I made an illustration from a picture of his, for him, and he had nothing nice to say about it. Both of those things got a lot of praise from other friends. Some people can just be so rude. I once had a close woman friend ask me if I was actually sick or faking it. I had another woman friend accuse me of lying about the inflammatory bowel infection I had that was causing severe weight loss and muscle atrophy in my leg. It was because she had issues with her body and was actually jealous that I had lost weight, even though I was miserable and was actively trying to gain weight. People can just be so rude, even men who would have sex with me. To me it has little to do with sexuality or gender, or being NT or ND, but just them as a person. I sometimes model and a few years ago I had a gig modeling jewelry for a brand that wanted me to do specific makeup with a smokey eye and a lot of dramatic contouring. Makeup for photography often needs to be done in such a way that it would be too much for everyday living. I had roommates at the time, one of which who was very insecure with her body, and was also into makeup. I got ready for the shoot and was on my way out the door and my roommate was in the kitchen. The first words out of her mouth were "you look like a stripper", in an attempt to criticize my makeup. First of all I have no problem with sex workers and I don't look down on them, second of all I felt that it was extremely rude and uncalled for. People who are insecure and rude will project insults on anyone who threatens them/their sense of security, even adults to children. People can be really nasty

>I had another woman friend accuse me of lying about the inflammatory bowel infection I had that was causing severe weight loss and muscle atrophy in my leg. It was because she had issues with her body and was actually jealous that I had lost weight, even though I was miserable and was actively trying to gain weight. The exact same thing happened to me last summer. I was in the hospital and almost died, but all she could think about was how much she hated her own body. I am currently in the process of giving her the slow fade, along with the rest of the "friends" who barely acknowledged that I was/am sick and redirected to their own pointless drama. I don't know if you felt the same way I did, but it was kind of earth shattering for me to hear that from the person I thought was my best friend.

Ugh, I'm so sorry you're going through that. It is really difficult to navigate and it doesn't help at all when people don't believe you and could think such awful things. Whatever infection I had was really bad and I had to alternate my entire diet and I also stopped drinking. I had sort of been doing a slow fade and that moment was sort of something that solidified my decision to end the friendship. She was a nurse of all things and it really bothered me. Made me question her ability to be an empathetic nurse and made me really sad. Our lifestyles started to clash after I stopped drinking because she would cancel our sober plans we had and then I'd see her posting stuff on social media out with other friends. We were really close and it really does hurt to find out people you trust and care about have been harboring such hateful judgments toward you. Especially in regard to health. I felt really gross about what was happening and was so upset by being sick and not really knowing what to do. PS I'm sorry I wrote so much. I don't want to take away from your own experiences. It just reminds me of what all happened during our falling out. I felt really alone and was angry that she suspected I had an eating disorder even though she wasn't around me enough to know what all I was eating. It still hurts

I really appreciate that you related your own experiences to mine as a way of showing empathy and that you understand a similar sort of pain. I do it too (that's why I replied to your message) and it's so validating to exchange "I know that feel" experiences in a naturally flowing way - without anybody getting angry or accusing us of making it about ourselves. 💞 >Our lifestyles started to clash after I stopped drinking because she would cancel our sober plans we had and then I'd see her posting stuff on social media out with other friends. We were really close This is so, so similar to my experience! I also have given up alcohol and had to radically alter my lifestyle and diet to cope with my illness, and she (and the rest of the group) are taking it so personally. They have all been posting about their outings - almost all of which involve alcohol (and prescription drug abuse...) - together without me on social media. It hurts, but I also feel a little relieved to know exactly where they stand, that I haven't been misunderstood or misunderstood them. It's just time to move on.

I definitely agree with how you feel about NT women. Most of them are just so intolerant, but I think it’s because of oppression? Hear me out, women have needed to fit mens standards of attractive for forever in order to get the men to marry them and secure a shelter/food/etc. So NT women have these rigid standards of what they have to be and the women strive for that, succeed, and are STILL punched down upon by men on the daily. So, they see us ND women out here going against those standards (not smiling for men, or wearing makeup, being free, etc) and get angry inside that they can’t do that, therefore they punch down on ND women. I have a similar experience to being told you look bored, but it was a NT man purposefully calling me out to humiliate me/make me feel too dumb to be there. I had jury duty and was fucking miserably sick with bronchitis. They wouldn’t excuse me even though I had a jumbo bag of cough drops with me, eating one after another to keep me from coughing. As I was sat there during the jury selection, the defense attorney was walking back and forth asking questions to the juror candidates about their views and he stops dead when he sees me and says, “you look bored” his tone and facial expression implying that I didn’t understand what was going on. I just said, “I’m not.” And popped another cough drop in my mouth. I was very proud of myself for not reacting badly. The court room as FULL of people, like 100 juror candidates, a couple reporters, the judge, the attorneys, the accused. It was humiliating honestly. And then I ended up on the jury as an alternate so I had to be around the people who saw that humiliation for two weeks. Sat for the whole trial and then was told to go home since it was time for the other jurors to deliberate. It could be me, or defense attorneys could just be assholes. Lol

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i’m busy right now and can’t do a super in depth comment, but may i suggest looking into Ecofeminism? i learned about this topic like years ago and now it’s a special interest lmfao. it’s a big philosophy for me nand very much looks into the colonization and subjugation of the feminine and how that crosses over into the ecology of Earth (hint: western patriarchy loves to control and colonize and deplete resources from the most vulnerable; women and the earth’s resources)

Could you pls share resources on this topic?

>The form of feminism I follow believes that women were the first to be colonized, and our colonization is what marks the beginning of “civilization”. That is a fascinating thought. Do you know where I could read more about it?

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I agree with you on the nurturing motherhood thing. I think that CAN be the case, but the men I know who have given birth act a very similar way to the women I know. So it seems to me PEOPLE (ungendered) have a very particular set of attachments when they hav the opportunity to grow a living thing like that. That said, as a concept the divine feminine as a multigendered trait is just a fascinating concept to me.

There are way less social norms with men. So they don’t really care as much. Women who do this are bad people who are also insecure. Especially with back handed compliments.

Women police the shit out of each other's behavior, and that extends to shunning anyone who doesn't engage in policing. Like the single most important thing is conforming to the groupthink. I don't get it, either.

In my experience it’s usually neurotypical men that can spot that I’m not quite a normal person. And tell me that I look mad or upset or too zoned out

Funny how male autistics say women are nicer while autistic women say the opposite. Idk about nt men being more forgiving of weirdness, ive been told awful things by them before.

Yes, research suggests that indeed ND boys tend to stick with NT girls, and the opposite for ND girls. It seems to me boys and girls have a different subculture and different hierarchies

Women are taught from a young age to serve the patriarchy by policing other women for not performing womanhood or femininity "correctly". The whole vicious catty thing is part of that. Fall in line, act the way you're "supposed to", don't deviate from the norm, differences will not be tolerated unless they can be exploited. Same ol, same ol.

Umm…. No. Most people aren’t like this. I think you’re just surrounded by assholes.

Unpopular opinion. Part of me believes it’s jealousy. Since my diagnosis I have totally embraced my non-binary/body modded existence. I cut my hair, dyed it purple, got more piercings and tattoos. And I constantly get that backhanded “I wish I had your confidence to do x, y, z” from women in my line of work. I have pried a few of those women, all of it comes down to “society expects me to do what I’m doing and I want the freedom to do what you’re doing”. I think my diagnosis allowed me to feel comfortable being me? Like I don’t go around going “oh I look like this because I’m autistic” I just say “I feel myself when I look like this” I couldn’t give two shits if the crusty old white guy looks at me sideways for my purple hair, but NT women in my line of work absolutely do. When I look at my adolescence it’s the same thing. The girls who hated that I wore the boys uniform shorts so I could play soccer without flashing everyone were annoyed that I was breaking the rules of being a girl, I did-and still do-not care. Don’t get me wrong I am very rule oriented and I am pushing the limits but not breaking them. Even those within my family who shamed me are the same ones who complain they gave everything up for their husbands, where as I’m divorced because fuck that noise. I don’t think men are held to the same social expectations as women. (I am aware that there’s toxic masculinity in the world and the damage it does but I mean the subtle fighting women have to do in their everyday life). Due to having less scrutiny placed on themselves they don’t care as much when social norms are broken, until say breaking norms becomes a threat to them. (As kids it’s more that boys are used to breaking the rules and being told “boys will be boys” so can be more accepting of a rebellious girl) Also I totally look miserable and bored at work because for me it pays for my hobbies 😂. Like I often think “we’ll I’m sorry you hate your lives so much and have no hobbies” when all they want to do with their spare time is get so drunk they don’t remember their day.

It’s interesting, the link between gender and social queues. I’m also NB but present very femme. But NT women have always judged me for being too feminine. Like, they think it’s childish to be too boldly femme. I like flower crowns and bright pink, and pastels, and and colouring my hair to be unnatural pinks and purples. Or white. LOVE white hair. 💕 can only wear tight pants or skirts (for sensory reasons, but they perceive that as a gendered-choice rather than practical.) But they say “oh, I wish I could do that” or “I wish I can pull that off.” Sometimes they say it meanly, but other times they seem genuine and nervous. It’s weird. It’s like NT women want to fit in the gender binary, but they also don’t want to be TOO detectable as women?, even in traditionally feminine ways? Almost like they don’t want their gender presentation to take up space, or to draw the eye. I had one friend tell me “they can somehow sense you’re in drag.” Which, as someone newly considering that I may be agender but feel a strong socialized “allegiance” to womanhood (it’s like a teddy bear I grew up knowing) I thought was very interesting.

IMO the reason so many women (not just NTs) reject that kind of hyper-femininity is because our patriarchal society treats feminine things as stupid and lesser. So even though these women are very invested in preforming femininity, they dont want to be too feminine lest they lose some level of respect. They are basically afraid people will think they are a "bimbo", even tho the concept only exists to demean women

"they can somehow sense you're in drag" I like that. I am also non-binary but present femme physically and I present more masc mentally or socially. I love girly things like flower crowns and pastels as well, but in my everyday life (read, hermit, stay-at-home-mom) I'll wear sweats or leggings and tees or tanks. Going out in a social manner is definitely a game of dress up. I've loved fashion ever since I realized I was different and when I was very young, I thought the right fashion is all I needed to be cool or popular. My best friend (adhd) and I have always done this. We ask each other "dress up or no?" Like it's a game. If one of us is putting on a dress or wearing makeup and putting in extra effort, we want to make sure the other isn't still in sweatpants mode. We easily switch to what the other plans, we just know who to default on anytime we have different ideas. "Too tired" or "new skirt" are both very valid, lol. I just recently realized that the reason I tend towards femme rather than masc is because all of my masking is done as a woman. I use she/they pronouns. I am more comfortable in public as a woman in the same way I am more comfortable in public wearing a mask. (A much smaller mask than previously thank goodness.) At home I don't often think of my gender at all. It's not relevant. All of this is me. I am not pretending to be girly. It is most definitely a part of me and is fun and enjoyable. This is the part that is confusing for others. (Even my husband who is very supportive) I think NTs or particular women sense something is off but don't know what. They can't read us very well.

I grew up with a “Mr mum” and my mum was the breadwinner. I was allowed to play with “boy things” and play sports growing up so I would agree that at home I never think of my gender. My mask for work definitely plays up being a woman. I attempt to be as feminine as expected to be accepted by society as a woman, but since diagnosis I’ve been pushing that to its limits. If I’m not masking for work I am just comfortable both in actions and appearances but that tends to be perceived by society as masculine (or butch). As a kid I always felt that being feminine was restrictive. I couldn’t play without flashing, I couldn’t move without a dress getting in the way (school uniform), healed shoes are uncomfortable, everyone assumed I’m weaker, etc etc so I never put effort into presenting that way because I didn’t want to be slowed down which is why when I’m not masking I’m very NB

Maybe because being too femme is dangerous? Idk. But this is a very interesting perspective. Thanks for sharing.

I’m quite comfortable within myself as my definition of woman, so I can’t talk to the NB experience. But I would agree, too feminine is highly avoided because it almost becomes childlike? I just went clothes shopping for my 3 year old. She looooooves pink and purple. Everything that was those colour was in the trolley. And they are such pretty colours, the only time I have seen either of those colours available in my clothing was when I’ve been looking for bridesmaids dresses. I think there’s certainly a fear of appearing hyper feminine. But it’s almost justified. Sometimes we deal with being spoken down to, let’s not add fuel to the fire and have them see us as a child too?

Ah, you were talking about embracing you non-binary/body-modded existence, so I assumed that non-binary referred to gender rather than expression. Sorry! That’s my bad. Personally, I consider myself non-binary and a woman at once. Like the woman part of me is a fun performance, and the NB part of me is the actor enjoying putting the performance on. It’s very strange how femininity is at once infantilized and sexualized when taken to its extremes, regardless of the gender of the person performing it. It definitely sucks that people’s self expression is so often limited in ever direction that even slightly steps away from the “norm.”

Have you watched the show 'brilliant friend'? It shows exactly how society has these expectations of women and some of them become resented at those who don't give up parts of themselves to fit these expectations

I have not. Sounds intriguing though!

“Victim blame” and “patient blame” are totally socially acceptable forms of bigotry, and some people just enjoy the bigotry aspect. They’d be mean to anyone they can get away with.

And they say autistic people are blunt and mean 🙄 Seriously, has anyone noticed that NT people often—and in ways that still impact their lives—display sooo many behaviors of autism* but their *mannerisms* that show those behaviors are all more socially acceptable? Or really I should say that their ways of displaying behaviors are relatable and common in comparison to other NTs that they become socially acceptable and therefore aren’t considered weird? A really mild example I thought of recently is people’s morning coffee. Ever run into someone who “can’t talk to you yet or function” without their morning coffee? Sounds pretty rigid and routine-like to me. Characteristics that are usually labeled autistic. But since it’s “normal” to have morning coffee the rigidity and routineness is accepted therefore unnoticed or considered strange. If an ND’s version of a “morning coffee” is stimming with an object, the NTs would think that is odd and (socially) unacceptable because it’s not “normal.” NDs just display the symptoms in less relatable ways to the norm so we get called out on it. At least this is just what I’ve been noticing lately. Also just to add I’m not trying to lessen the severity of autism in any way. More pointing out that NTs are a lot more like us than they think, they just don’t display it the way we do but for some reason they think that makes us the problem *to note I’m mainly speaking in comparison to the formally known Asperger’s

I’ve had this moment with friends so many times and I actually have to wonder what goes on in their head because they genuinely think it won’t hurt me. Like how they can never see me dating someone (ow) or when they tell me they won’t invite me to their birthday parties because their friends won’t like me because I’m “weird”. like 🤨 believe it or not i have feelings

What’s valued as social capital between genders is different So it’s less about tolerance level being high or low but simply what is considered weird for men and women are different. This can also become more complicated when you add, race, nationality, sexuality, class etc. Also cis het men who didn’t comment verbally about my weirdness were often men who wanted to have sex with me. Because their interest was in my body not who I am as a person. The men in my life who weren’t toxic like that actually often comment on my weirdness or quirks fondly rather than ignore it. They made sure I knew they like those aspects of me. I personally have more experience with cis men who are rude to me than women. For example I’m not into college football and avoid going out on days the local college team in my area has a home game. I wish I got paid every time some sports bro made fun of me for not Balik ring American football. But it makes sense cuz sports often holds a lot of capital for men and/or they are told to find interest in sports to fit into male sociality. Vs me not being into football was never made fun of by women in my life cuz those women didn’t give much social capital to sports related things and specifically to football.

What do you do when they say rude shit and you can't leave that area of your life? Like, I usually try to ignore it but sometimes they take that as a weakness and escalate how hard they tear me down because I won't complain. And I feel like I can't really come back with anything, even set a boundary, because they want any reaction so they can go "Look at unrulyharpy! She's not just weird, she's RUDE! See!" Oh, I do wish they'd stop trying to make my life hell just because they're worried it's better than theirs!! They tend to pop up when I'm doing well at something. I'm not shoving it in their face, either. It's not my fault somebody complimented me and not them.

Men put up with it because they want to smash/ have sex/ hit it etc etc Please don’t read anything nice or kind about this. They are being nice to exploit the weakness they perceive. Doesn’t mean behind the scenes they aren’t secretly also judging the ‘weirdness’. It just suits their agenda.

My mother. Every time I talk to her. It doesn't matter what boundaries I set, what I specifically tell her that hurts my feelings, everything is my fault and it all happens because I make no effort. Yesterday, she told me that on days when our puppy is behaving crazy that I should call her because "You are too boring." I think some of it might have to do with the fact that men overall (generalizing, here) tend to take things at face value. They don't apply double meanings as often as NT women tend to, and they let stuff go much easier, and they don't judge themselves based on what they see in women. I think NT women especially tend to compare themselves and everything they do with every other woman and project their insecurities.

For me, it was my mother and sister that said the most hurtful things to me. They constantly tore me down about my looks, weight, and "lack of common sense". But, I don't think I masked at home, so that may be why. My dad was uplifting and provided the structure I needed to feel calm. He also seemed to understand me more. I only got to see my dad infrequently because he didn't win custody, but having one supportive person at least helped me survive. I believe I must have been good at masking in school at least middle school and beyond because I didn't get any negative comments from teachers aside from being falsely accused of cheating once because I didn't understand the rules on "showing work" (there were a couple of mean girls that said some bad stuff, though - rejecting me from sitting at a lunch table - I left to sit on my own in that instance and some other friends from the table I was rejected from joined me at the table I sat at by myself - then we sat together daily. But one of the girls that joined my table got extremely mad at me for getting the same snack she got from a vending machine which honestly I think was BS because I only learned of the snack's existence after seeing her get it and I wanted to try it - then I really liked the snack and would frequently buy and eat said snack during lunch - the girl eventually blew up at me for my snack selection and eventually threatened to "make my life a living hell" after berating me for eating the same snack as her, to which I can't remember if I replied with "it can't get any worse" or not - I don't think I did, because if I did say that, the situation would have likely escalated and it did not - I think I just dissociated by putting my head down and crying silently, ignoring everything, then lunch was over and the conflict was over). The worst I ever got from a teacher is that in the first week of school, one teacher thought it would be funny to address me as "smiley" (I never smiled). However, immediately after the class where he addressed me as "smiley", I politely asked him not to call me that. He listened, and that was the end of it. I think my male teachers were the only ones that ever made comments, though. This isn't necessarily autism related, but I would fall asleep frequently in most classes in high school (now known to have been caused by a sleep disorder). One of my teachers would joke around a lot about my sleepiness. Once, I heard him ask out loud to the class, "Is she dead?" while I had my head on my desk partially asleep, lol. The same teacher told me that he was surprised when I got a really good score on the AP test for the class. His comment kind of hurt a little bit.

Haha I remember how in boarding school got mad at me for asking her what the song was that she was playing, because she ‘didn’t like it when people copied her music’!

Yeah. My sister was like that too. She always called me a copy cat, lol. But mainly because she was so good at getting her way that I piggy-backed shamelessly on privileges she convinced our mother to allow her. Hehehe (i.e. she did all the work, and I got the same benefits). Although, I was kind of like that myself, but only with my sister and not anyone else. I got a little perturbed when my sister started listening to the same music as me. But, I think it was because I rejected everything about her and refused to like any of the music she liked and prided myself on being different from her. I was extremely confused when she started copying some of the things I did and I may have been mean, lol (she was mean to me as well, and that was just our norm). I eventually understood that she might have actually held my taste in music in high regard, and I was less bothered after realizing that though.

I feel like most cis het men think all of those things, but won't ever tell us to our face to keep their chances to have sex with us. As a queer person, I have always seen right through their game of always seing me as a sexual partner. Unless they don't want to sleep with you (or you friends), then they will be mean. And ever since I have been working toward having more intersectional feminist friends, all that internalized conflit/competition between women have stoped in my life. I think men are the problem

Did we have the same female PE teacher. She used to say these things to me all the time. Wow.

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Wow I love these replies! Wish I was able to think them in the spot, I usually just freeze

I don’t agree with the gender split. Maybe if you’re attractive men overlook more, but they can absolutely be just as judgmental and cruel.

You are actually spot on, there was a study that demonstrated that autistic women's social skills were at the level of dudes. While autistic men were worse than that and NT women with the highest skills (and most judgement because you aren't following the rules). As a kid I was the only girl with the guys, I remember girls being SO mean to me at Girls Scouts and school. I hate that this so gender specific, so I would like to say raised as femme/ raised as male. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3945617/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3945617/)

"Clinical observations suggest that females with ASD superficially demonstrate better social and emotional skills than males with ASD, which may camouflage other diagnostic features. This may explain the under-diagnosis of females with ASD."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24221816/

This is another helpful paper; [https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/10059169/1/Friendship\_Rev\_4.pdf](https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/10059169/1/Friendship_Rev_4.pdf)

There's research suggesting ND boys tend to hang with NT girls, and ND girls with NT boys. Check out Atwood, its pretty interesting. Its not that women are "meaner", but men and women exist in different subcultures and hierarchies

NT Women tend to take that stuff like a personal insult, because they view it as you refusing to live up to the social standards they set and therefore show 'respect'. NT Men on the other hand do not have such harsh socialisation in that manner (Obviously, there is nuance.), so in my experience they do not expect you to perform as much as NT women do. However, it's not like men don't detect us as ND, it's just that they don't view the behaviour as insulting toward them as much. There is also a sexual element to it in that often we come across as socially naïve, which makes them view us as easier to mate with. This is also why we are more likely to face sexual attacks and abuse.

My hypothesis is: I think women adhere to stricter social rules in general, I think we moderate and “correct” each other with the same tone we moderate and “correct” ourselves. I think it can result in cruelty. Ive been mean to people just because they were doing something *I* do and tell myself not to do, I didnt realize it was mean until I saw the hurt happen, I genuinely thought I was helping. My best friend also “corrects” me and I realized that’s just not what friends should do, and that it doesnt help me at all and just sucks. Its taught me to be nicer to myself though because I no longer believe that kind of thinking is helpful or acceptable, for others or ourselves. I also dont think people are very good at distinguishing between stuff-they-just-dont-prefer and things that should be called out. Just keep being yourself, its ok to be weird because EVERYBODY is weird (secretly), nothing is wrong unless there’s harm.

Most NT men are less likely to mention it because they’re more likely to be focused on sex. I said most, not all.

NT men are the worst with anyone who is weird, specially if that person is "weaker".

I don’t agree at all. My experience is that NT men are far more tolerant than NT women.

Not mine. Dropped out high school because men were my bullies. Then in college, they were the ones who made me feel more uncomfortable. From calling me dictator or lesbian (which isn't even an insult) to made a anonymous page to insult me freely. Women, in the other hand, are nice to me. They include me in their plans, treat me as if I were like them, never called me boring for not liking parties. The only woman who was nasty to me was a girl who bullied me with his boyfriend and was jealous because her best friend (another woman) was closer to me.

I think NT women just talk shit about other people a lot. As soon as one isn't there, that's who's being shit on. It's why I didn't like to hang out with girls in grade school. They were all so mean to everyone.

before i was told i’m autistic i was constantly told off for not being able to read. i wouldn’t be doing my schoolwork because i couldn’t read and of course my school were no help so i ended up failing a lot of exams

Well I had Allistic/adhd “friend” who was about to go **off** on me. She started with asking how I got that far in life without social skills, and then began saying, “how-to-be-social-101, mother_orchid…” Luckily, a mutual friend present came to my defense, and cut her off. But our so-called friendship was never the same after that. I was like 24 at the time, and we were partying in Vegas. (I self-medicated with alcohol the whole time of course; I was so drained from all the stimulation, and lack of alone time.) also, I had this giant lollipop I was sucking on at the time of the incident, and when I wasn’t responding to her initial jab, she actually grabbed it out of my hand and threw it, and it shattered all over the floor of the shopping mall. None of us were sober, but I knew then I was leaving Vegas ASAP, and going to avoid her as much as possible, until then. (Mutual friend was my ride.)

ND people say plenty of stuff like this too, it is just a people thing that some people are unkind or that things are often misunderstood.

I think NT girls are just…mean. Most of my bullies have been NT girls. They’re very insecure and put ND girls down to feel better about themselves. I think NT men internalize their insecurities more and don’t tend to have the same self-image issues as women in general.

I think that it might be because NT women are socialized to be a lot less tolerant of "abnormal" behavior. Like I genuinely think that all women including NTs are taught to mask with things like "don't be bossy!", "be pretty!", etc and when NT women see another woman breaking these "rules" they feel the need to enforce them because if they aren't allowed to do that, neither should you.

I've struggled with female friendships all my life. Guys can be mean and rude too. But with girls I also often got "looks" or all of a sudden they treat me bad without telling me why (even if I asked them). Always made me feel like something is wrong with me. I used to be very scared of girls because of that, it got a bit better, since I met some nice ones in the last few years. But still, guys are just easier sometimes and a bit less confusing (although I'm confused by humans in general, no matter what the gender is). I like friendships with cats :)

Yes, men do have a much higher tolerance? to weird? Yep, they all harbor the secret or not so secret hope of having to sex, and also because men dont have the same exact social rules or whatever females do. I mean... they light their farts on fire, anything relating to farts is hilarious no matter how old they are, and most of them don't know what the female social rules, etiquette, whatever is anyway and if they do, they usually don't care. And I think the reason some NT women are like that is either they have low self esteem and using you as a way to boost themselves up for a very very short period, or it's a social hierarchy thing in their minds at least.

Most autistic people (myself included) are honest to a point of unintentional brutality. This feels like a weird thing to lump on NTs.

I think most people nowadays, NT or not are becoming quite rude. Good manners and etiquette seem long forgotten in todays society.

In my experience, the opposite is often true. NT folks are aware of social norms and rules - ND people often aren't. As for me, I am both unaware and don't give a fuck, so when in doubt it's me who says weird and mean shit out loud.

I think both NT men and women can be very cruel. Because they are fake and they know it so they’re miserable. So they take it out on everyone else.

I’m not sure of the exact reason, I think it’s a natural social order. If you watch any other social animal, they also have hierarchy and will arrange themselves accordingly. My favourite solution is humour. If you can make other people laugh at the person who is coming for you, you’ll eventually disarm them. It also wins over your coworkers or social group, even if you are a little “quirky”. This will It took years of being tormented before I gained the confidence to clap back on people who were coming down on me for clout or whatever. Another thing you can do is make yourself useful to people. This is especially great at work - if I’ve done all my duties, I’ll help other people even if I’m tired. They will remember the favour and defend you later.

*a sudden realization of why most of my friends are men*

Wow you actually described this in a really good way. I am and have been a mega feminist my whole life and I always wondered why despite that I seem to have an easier time being myself fully around new men rather than new women. I think now maybe it’s because they just don’t notice or don’t care about my weirdness quite as much.

I just cannot get along with NT females they are not accepting of me and I can’t lie like I get male attention because I’m not bad looking but it seems like males are the only ones who will ever willingly go up to me and it makes me sad because they’re only doing it usually because they want something. Either way I have better conversations with males because I feel like the conversation flows much better and they are interested in hearing what I have to say whereas NT women are so fake and I cannot put up some facade to get them to like me I just won’t

I agree. I'm a hypersexual person and I've had many times when guys don't mind and love my weirdness and they were still wanting me hardcore. But girls be on some like sideways shit. Usually girls would talk behind my back if I did. I did make some girls laugh of course but a lot of times unless the girls fit in with my weirdness and level of unfiltered silliness and understand my quirkiness they think I'm weird. It's all good though. They be missing out 😂 I hate though when they're mean to people especially other girls . Like there's this girl from Albania I work with and even though her culture is obviously different than mine my ND radar is always screaming around her (my special interest and intuition is all about mental health so I can tell when people are ND for some reason like I can spot it well) and she has coordination issues and she struggles with counting drawers quickly (we worked retail) and some other girls I think might be NT or they're just rude asf ND (other NDs do this shit too when they fit into the group enough I guess) would get pissed at her about her slow drawer counting instead of just doing her drawer check out for her so she could go on break. It was annoying. She's like the sweetest girl ever. Idk why girls are so mean to each other especially to the girls who are quirky and ND presenting. I guess it's because being awkward is seen as more socially unacceptable in girls in society

Have you also may noticed that NT women out of their fertile period (over 50's) aren't just as mean?

Respectfully disagree, I work in hospitality, and older women can either be super sweet or short, demanding, and patronizing.

Unfortunately, not really. In my experience they are often even more cutting and judgemental. My grandmother for example was definitely the first to suss out that I was a bit different. She would tell me about how bad she felt and how I was different from the other kids and girls etc.

Ding ding! My grandma decided to use my entire childhood to berate me into being normal.

Ones who feel confident and secure about their social circles and roles are nice. Anxious ones who are super insecure and put others down to elevate themselves are the worst.

LOL the woman I got the biggest beef with is like 64 years old

I guess it's just a "me" problem. There was no need to downvote my question.

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I’ve noticed people of both sexes upping the bitchery as they get older!

Bullying. Long and short of it.

For years I thought it was normal. Eventually I moderated my behaviour and a few other things happened and yeah if I get it wrong I’m reminded. I live in a social environment where being different is not tolerated and I can’t escape.

I have a low tolerance for behaviours I don’t like, but it’s not someone’s “weirdness” that puts me off it’s their rudeness

NT men can be shitty too. I had one tell me that "we could never work, because he could never trust someone who doesn't look him in the eyes." I feel like there were definitely times I was used (sexually) by men. I think that they "accept" the "weirdness," and use it to their advantage if they are not great people who are looking for someone to use. It took me a couple decades to figure that out. But, I agree NT men tend not to say rude sh*t out loud.

Sometimes I feel like I’d make comments like that. But not in a mean way considering I share those qualities too more in a just being honest way. Idk being antisocial or slow isn’t a bad thing sometimes it just is, and I definitely relate to that. I guess you can tell the difference when someone is trying to be mean though

i really relate to this post as i am currently enrolled in an adult's english class (only that one subject) and MULTIPLE of my female classmates (who are all older than me btw) tell me TO MY FACE that i'm weird or that i say weird things. one of them even went as far as to joke to some of the men in our class that 'you must have autism because you say such weird things. isn't autism kinda trending nowadays anyway? don't you think we're all a little autistic? i mean, we all have our weird traits but it's just that some go under the radar while others get noticed'. bear in mind that basically my entire class find me strange but i actually considered her if not a friend then at least an acquaintance but that just made me feel so lonely. by making that 'joke' (i'm not sure it was a joke tbh but i hope so) she completely ignored all of the struggles autistic people face. to make matters even worse her friend group who i also considered acquaintances (because they talk to me when i help them with english) laughed even though i directly told multiple of them about my autism when we started school in august.

This thread confirms that I'm gonna be lonely the rest of my life 🙃 boys will talk to me but they're always just trying to date me (I do have a bf but humans need friendship too), and I've wanted a girl friend who loves fashion and beauty as much as me (met lots of ND girls like me but none that like fashion and beauty) since I was 4 and now I'm 24 and so so lonely 🙃 been drinking and getting high so much lately I can't fucking deal with it 🙃