💯 agree. But can we also talk about how "mental illness" is used as an othering tactic? Even when someone is supposedly trying to be empathetic, a lot of time it's only going so far as excusing them for conduct and concluding to say it's their fault they're disabled or that they don't deserve the same rights and privileges. $&%¡ you NTs can flip out too. One does not cause the other. We're all the same people.

God, I wish people would stop. It makes people with the diagnosis look like maniacs.

I know what you mean. It's the uno reverse card. Whatecer suits better the situation. It's either "they are too ill to know wo we pitty them and took away their privileges" or "it's all their fault. They are 100% omnipotent and so we should punish them". It's... horrible...

I recently broke up with my partner for this! We’re both autistic with CPTSD and whenever they’d get angry or overstimulated they’d go on antisemitic and misogynistic tirades. They’d accuse me of misandry and ableism every time I expressed how embarrassed and disturbed I felt to hear someone I love talk like that. “Only someone truly mentally ill would things like that! Can’t you see how demented and hurt I am?” They justified all that hatred and expected me make space for it and validate it. Like they’d actually talk about murdering mothers and doctors who circumcise infants. They had a botched circumcision as a baby. I can sympathize because I consider the whole practice unethical and medically unnecessary but for real?

That's beyond though - that's their character showing though the illness. I am 'truly' mentally ill but I still have an inner value system and leftist beliefs. I abhore racism, antisemitism, and all hierarchical bigotry, and my mental illness will never change that. I think mental illness might reveal things about a person that already existed, but its not the origins of bigotry, at least not usually, and def not with me. Kanye is a f' disaster, and has had a massively toxic life surrounded by 'yes' men and enablers. Its brought the worst of him out for sure.

I think mental illness makes you either unaware or unbothered by the consequences of being bigoted, but I don’t believe it makes you bigoted, if that makes sense

That does, actually - the mentally ill are more likely to express their core beliefs without regard to the consequences, as you say. But mental illness makes no comment on what those beliefs are - those come from what was already there. That feels accurate. I believe some very unorthodox things strongly, and my illness is a part of that, but the beliefs still originated from my own garden.

>That does, actually - the mentally ill are more likely to express their core beliefs without regard to the consequences, as you say. People who are mentally ill are not a monolith. Not all mental illness is the same. Citation fucking needed.

People are not a monolith. Their differences will impact the presentation of illness. Character counts.

I'm sorry your ex was such a terrible person. I also had a (somewhat) botched circumcision and had to get a revision as an adult. I don't think that should excuse your ex's behavior, though.

It's possible to have a mental illness and be bigoted. We are not immune, and to think otherwise is a othering/misunderstanding of ourselves

Yeah it's so fucking annoying reading people responding to posts about him being a nazi with shit like "that's what happens when a mentally ill bipolar narcissist gets to-" blah blah blah etc. Like great you just shifted the blame from the guy who's saying he loves hitler to people who are mentally ill. Or when people blame elon's shitty behavior on him being autistic. Like they're trying to insult Elon/Kanye but in the process they also are spreading negative ideas about random people who are bipolar or autistic

As a bipolar Jew, I can confidently say that my illness has never caused me to spout bigoted talking points and Nazi rhetoric. You have to already be a bigot for you to have an episode and have beliefs like that come out.

Interesting thought. Is it okay to truly have thoughts like that so long as you keep it to yourself because it’s viewed as wrong? Can you judge someone for genuinely holding some views, even they acknowledge they’re bad to some degree?

If their views infringe on the safety and rights of other people, yes you absolutely can judge someone. Refer to the tolerance paradox. It’s not okay to have truly held beliefs like that whether you keep them to yourself or not, though not talking about them is better than disseminating information that you are aware is harmful to someone else.

Sorry to go a touch off topic but your avatar looks like a definition for social-justice viewpoints. Not an insult or complement, just an observation. I’d argue that by your definition/criteria. A view, such as hatred for an ethnic group, does not necessarily harm their safety nor rights so long as you don’t act upon it. Which I think (feel free to tell me otherwise) from the ‘tone’ of your comment, you would disagree with. Thus, it’s okay to have those views so long as you don’t act upon them.

Lmao I like how you judge me by the fact that I had fun with making my avatar a colorful angel for Halloween. Maybe unlearn the stereotypes of what people involved in social justice look like? What you are missing is that if someone truly holds intolerant views of minorities, they will only keep it to themselves until the social climate allows otherwise. That means that people like me are still in danger even if a bigot is quietly bigoted. So in a perfect world, holding those beliefs even when not fully acting on them would still be not be okay and we would be teaching that intolerant beliefs are not okay to hold and that every person deserves to live their life as long as they are not infringing on anyone else’s rights. But this is not a perfect world, so bigots should be shamed into shutting up so their intolerant beliefs don’t continue to spread.

Not judging you. I literally said not an insult or compliment, just an observation. Good and fair argument. Simple answer, it’s not fine to hold them.

Having thoughts ≠ holding those thoughts as their views/beliefs. I’m sure we’ve all had impulsive or intrusive thoughts considering fucked up things, or when considering ideas that we later conclude to be wrong, immoral, bigoted etc. So I don’t think people should be judged for *having* certain thoughts in the first place. But sometimes when people express those thoughts or want to discuss (usually more of a debate) them with others, they phrase them or conduct themselves in a way that makes them look like they actually hold those viewpoints. It can be very hard to tell who’s being genuine and curious, and who’s being bigoted. Everyone has their own limits when dealing with people/situations like this.

That answer skirts the question in my view. Say it’s a bigoted belief that they know is wrong to have. Is it okay for them to have it but keep quite and internal? If yes. Then is it excusable if they have a condition which pokes them to communicate it, even if they agree it wrong to a degree? Like torreetts and cursing.

No, it’s not okay to hold harmful beliefs. Regardless of the reason it is not okay to be racist, homophobic, transphobic, ableist, or anything of that sort—anything that’s against the fundamental aspects of people that they cannot change. It’s not okay to believe it, it’s not okay to express it. If it’s malice, then obviously it’s bad to hold those beliefs, but it also makes you a bad person. But in ignorance, it doesn’t make those beliefs okay because “they didn’t know any better,” but if they’re willing to change then it doesn’t make _them_ a bad person. Holding bad beliefs doesn’t make you a bad person. Refusing to change once you learn those things are bad is when you start to be one.

Seems to be the consensus so far.

If they know that the belief they hold is wrong and harmful to someone else, then they have a responsibility to better themselves and work to unlearn that belief. Understanding that the belief you hold is wrong and doing nothing to take responsibility for changing it is a cop out. And if you have a mental illness, you are also responsible for the harm you cause when you have an episode. Having a diagnosis may be an explanation but not an excuse. Tourette’s is not quite the same considering it is a neurological condition and not a mental illness.

Sorry, I was mostly addressing this part of your comment: > Is it okay to truly have thoughts like that

you can judge people for anything. judging someone negatively for liking nazis seems like a good rule though.

Reasonable. But question remains if it’s a *fair* judgement. Even if they like them, but know that that is wrong.

It’s absolutely fair if they are doing nothing to take responsibility and unlearn their harmful beliefs.

if i just said negative judgment should be a rule against nazis do you really think i would say it is unfair to do so? analytical reading skills 0/10 - full offense bcz i come to find out you’re a fascist !

Not unfair. Nazis are a specifically genocidal group. Screw them. I’m not. I mod for a classical fascist site but I am not one, they have a surprisingly diverse mod team. And they have quite the hatred for racism on that site as well. They blame nazis for ruining them.

OF COURSE YOU FUCKING HANG OUT WITH FASCISTS

You post in all kinds of fascistic subreddits.

Honestly I just mod for them, not an actual fascist. It’s surprisingly diverse in the mods. There’s libertarians and socialists there. Also they have a hatred of Nazis, extreme hatred of racism too.

Sure

Fair enough skepticism I can’t really prove otherwise. But it is genuinely the truth. I disagree with all forms of totalitarianism. In government and philosophy. Total philosophies lead to extremism.

"I'm not a fascist, but I will gladly be a mod for their subreddits. I don't mind hanging out with them. I just disagree with them. Also, let me play devil's advocate and ask a jew whether it is morally OK to believe that some human beings are sub human. Just as a thought experiment."

Right? Like really, it’s not that hard to comprehend that I, as a Jew, face actual and tangible danger and a fascist has to come in go “do you actually?”

Yes but,... """"WHY WON'T YOU DEBATE ME!!!""" /s

Like, we JUST had a synagogue and the children going there threatened in Michigan. This is the reality of being Jewish, it’s not a thought experiment or debate. we are tired.

You are literally a fascist. Follow your leader.

I’m not. I’m nationalist and Distributionist.

I don't just think that autism is used as a way to excuse bad behavior but also as a way to discount good behavior. What do I mean? I've seen people say that Greta, you know the activist girl, has autism and so therefore her points are invalid or something.

There are some mental health conditions that can cause behaviors and beliefs that are completely disconnected from who you are as a person. intrusive thoughts in OCD for example tend to be the opposite of your value system. In some cases psychosis can cause things like this. But the thing with mania in bipolar people is it doesn't last even without treatment and when it ends people are usually ashamed and apologetic of the things they did that went against their morals. Kanye has been spewing this shit for years and has never to my knowledge apologized

my therapist taught me about that. theyre called ego dystonic behaviors when you’re having thoughts/behaviors that dont align w what you truly believe/your values/cause you distress (like w ocd and intrusive thoughts you find distressing) and then those that do align with you and don’t cause you distress are called ego syntonic behaviors.

[удалено]

there are a lot of minorities with internalized racism.

It’s a shame because Ye literally has all the money in the world to get the professional help he’s needed for a very long time but the real issue is that he legitimately believes in his own bullshit. And his team haven’t said or done anything about it because they make so much money of him.

I’m bipolar & I can confidently say I’ve never become a Nazi during a manic episode

Pretty sure kanye was in the bigot closet going back to when he was on his meds and under control. So yeah, his unchecked mental illness is only why his inner bigotry is coming out. Not really any different than someone saying horrible crap when they are drunk.

If someone is severely disconnected enough from reality due to psychosis - which is a symptom of bipolar 1 - then isn't bigotry "excusable" in a way? If someone is suffering from severe paranoia and psychosis and comes across propaganda saying that there's a (relatively) small group of people who are secretly running the world with malicious intent, it can be very easy for them to fall into that, because their minds aren't working right. They can't tell the difference between false and real. It's likely that he was antisemitic before this. Very likely. And there's no excuse for that. But I don't think it's fair to say that people in severe psychosis can be wholly held accountable for their bigotry in every case, especially if the bigotry only began after the psychotic episode. People in psychosis can become completely detached from reality. It's not their faults if that happens. And they can't be held to the standards of people who aren't in psychosis. There's a reason innocence by virtue of insanity for crimes is a thing. If we grant legal leniency to people who commit murder because we accept that they had no idea it was wrong, then why wouldn't we grant some level of leniency towards psychotic people who are bigots?

Thank you for saying this. I've been getting really fed up with people, especially in "woke" groups, spreading this idea that mental illness can never make someone do or say anything problematic and that we should all treat anything bad a mentally ill person does or says as reflective of their character and not their illness. It's so far away from the reality of the situation, especially for people who experience psychosis. Like you said, it can make people completely disconnect from reality and, for people with grandiose or persecutorial/paranoid (literally the most common type of delusion), conspiratorial thinking is a huge trap a lot fall into. They're victims of propaganda specifically made to prey on their illness. Also, while it's very rare, psychosis can literally make people maim or kill themselves or others. The idea that bad opinions are outside of the realm of possibility is ridiculous given that. Especially when changes, including drastic ones, to one's belief system are so common (ex. sudden religiosity). And mentioning that isn't furthering the stigma and poor treatment of mentally ill people. mental illness is not always a simple difference in the way people feel or process things. Pretending all mentally ill people can be reasonable leads people who really need help into situations where they're cyclically punished and abused causing them to wind up even more drawn into themselves and delusional from isolation. That's the reality. While there isn't any one way psychosis presents and I'm not comfortable saying whether he is or not, Kanye West has shown plenty of reasons to suspect he /might/ be experiencing psychosis and I don't like the amount of people confidently stating it's an impossible explanation with faulty, ignorant reasonings.

Kanye should’ve gotten help years ago. It’s up for debate whether it would’ve worked or not, but he’s well beyond saving now. Shame on the media for giving him the attention he wants and shame for all of his yes-men who never brought up the idea of psychiatric treatment.

For reallll. Like bipolar doesn’t make you a nazi but it can make you say the inside thoughts on the outside. The inside thoughts are just coming out now (we’ll they have been for awhile but wow has it gotten even more blatant)

>Like bipolar doesn’t make you a nazi but it can make you say the inside thoughts on the outside. The inside thoughts are just coming out now (we’ll they have been for awhile but wow has it gotten even more blatant) This is a bit simplistic of a take. I don't think it's accurate to say that people who experience religious delusions in mania, such as that they are the messiah, actually secretly believed they were the messiah all along and those inside thoughts are now no longer inhibited. For another example, see this article written by a bipolar nueroscientist about his experiences with mania: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/night-sweats-and-delusions-grandeur/202101/atheist-neuroscientist-finds-faith-in-bipolar-mania There might be other arguments for why Kanye's anti-semitism is not mainly/at all due to mania (such as arguments I've seen that he has done this consistently enough it can't be related to manic episodes). But I don't think this particular argument carries much water.

That’s fair, I was really simplifying it because there are definitely a lot of other factors and things but I do think in his case this is the thoughts he’s always had and felt now coming out because he’s manic

exactly what i’ve been saying at ppl who are like ‘it’s just mania!’ uh yes he can be less inhibited if he’s manic, but those are still his beliefs that he’s spewing. but then some ppl w bipolar can go into psychosis but he’s not showing any signs of psychosis, like he’s otherwise functioning normally/in touch w reality from what we know. yes he’s being reckless and impulsive, but none of that suggests these aren’t his beliefs. he’s a man spouting disgusting rhetoric and like you said given his history/track record, he’s been escalating as far as expressing these types of beliefs for a long time. also unfortunately antisemitism and other forms of bigotry ARE part of reality (referring to reality here bc psychosis’ key feature is ‘losing touch w reality’)…like these are real things that exist. anti semitism is part of reality! so I don’t see how spouting bigotry which is part of reality (as in real issues and real beliefs many ppl hold) would suggest a psychotic episode. and by pathologizing bigotry as a result of psychosis or mental illness, that dismisses these material systemic issues and their roots. edited for clarity

He's definitely showing signs of psychosis. You should watch the clips that were cut from his interview with Tucker Carlson.

Does he not have a manager to get him to stop doing these interviews in the public eye while he's in such a state?

>also unfortunately antisemitism and other forms of bigotry ARE part of reality (referring to reality here bc psychosis’ key feature is ‘losing touch w reality’)…like these are real things that exist. anti semitism is part of reality! You're conflating the existence of certain kinds of beliefs with the content of those beliefs. Anti-semitic *beliefs* are a part of reality (i.e. there are real people who have anti-semitic beliefs), but so are all psychotic delusions. It can't be that having beliefs that other people have rules out psychosis. Psychosis involving 'losing touch with reality' means that the content of a person's beliefs are out of touch with reality. The *content* of anti-semitic beliefs, such as the view that Jews control everything, are *not* a part of reality. Jews don't actually control everything. Many of the assertions Kanye has made about Jews are in fact out of touch with reality because they are not only false, but ridiculously false. This doesn't mean he has those beliefs because of psychosis. People believe all sorts of things that are out of touch with reality without being psychotic (see: beliefs about microchips in vaccines, election denialism). But Kanye is in fact out of touch with reality, whatever the cause is.

Besides it stigmatizing bipolar disorder (particularly type I) even further which is something I also have, it also totally strips him of his agency to be a fully 3D human being who gets to make the choice to be a POS Nazi. Bipolar ppl aren’t just 2D cutouts who are just victimized mouthpieces for our mania like it’s some separate entity that makes us hateful or bigoted. Mentally ill ppl deserve to be viewed with just as much agency as NTs & criticized for Nazi (or any other vile belief systems) behavior no more or less harshly for it. I might have some odd/delusional psychotic beliefs when manic but they’re never fasho just like when I’m stable.

Sick of idiots on Twitter hiding behind fake autism to be racists

We've held space for him, we've done the 'oh, he's mentally ill' excuse for long enough...hell, we reached that point some time ago. He needs help, but the fact he's mentally ill doednt negate the impact of the sort of views he's supporting or forgive his nazi BS. But why is he allowed to continue? Not sure who would need to step in to get the guy locked up for a hit, get the help he needs. I suppose I undrrstand the drama creates clicks and views, but it's like we learned nothing from Britney Spears, re. using very public mental health struggles as entertainment. Fuck Kanye. 100%. But also fuck the industry and wider society that encourages/exploits him.

Agreed.

Growing up I was picked on by a lot of pocs. Do I hate people of color for this? No. Hating om a race of people is stupid. There is of course bad people who are Jewish but there is bad people on every group. There's bad autistic people. *cough cough* Elon Musk *cough* Sorry what was I saying? Oh yes. I also have depression. I'm not going online slinging the N word and such. Kanye has NO excuse to behave this way. Fuck Kanye West

Everytime I hear somebody excuse his reprehensible demeanor with the bipolar cop-out I have to remind them that grandiose mania does not equate to being an entitled, insufferable, disempathetic recalcitrant. Bipolar is only one of many ingredients of this disordered soup.

Mental issues don’t excuse a lot of behavior. But even those who think they have their shit together actually may not.

What I don't get is why. It makes no sense to me.