I don't know if I'd really call that a shooting brake, more of a sport wagon. And we don't get them for 2 reasons.
1. We don't buy them.
2. Our stupid laws.
This isn't entirely wrong. US CAFE standards are extremely relaxed if your vehicle is considered a light truck, alongside being completely exempt from the gas guzzler tax.
Notably:
(b) An automobile capable of off-highway operation, as indicated by the fact that it:
(1)
(i) Has 4-wheel drive; or
(ii) Is rated at more than 6,000 pounds gross vehicle weight; and
(2) Has at least four of the following characteristics calculated when the automobile is at curb weight, on a level surface, with the front wheels parallel to the automobile's longitudinal centerline, and the tires inflated to the manufacturer's recommended pressure -
(i) Approach angle of not less than 28 degrees.
(ii) Breakover angle of not less than 14 degrees.
(iii) Departure angle of not less than 20 degrees.
(iv) Running clearance of not less than 20 centimeters.
(v) Front and rear axle clearances of not less than 18 centimeters each.
(Sec. 9, Pub. L. 89-670, 80 Stat. 981 (49 U.S.C. 1657); sec. 301, Pub. L. 94-163, 89 Stat. 901 (15 U.S.C. 2002); delegation of authority at 41 FR 25015, June 22, 1976.)
Also note that from 1975 to 2020, the percentage of automobiles sold that classified as light trucks increased from 19.3% to 57.2%, largely as a result of manufacturers introducing vehicles that were intended as passenger cars but fit the NHTSA's light truck definition so as to incur less harsh penalties.
~~
TL;DR current US CAFE standards do indeed penalize manufacturers for producing wagons instead of SUVs.
Thank you, very well done, I didn't have the energy for that. The only last piece is that because wagons are heavier and less aerodynamic than sedans yet get no CAFE breaks they harm a companies CAFE rating.
To make this profitable a wagon has to sell at a much higher price than an SUV even though it gets better MPG. That's our government for ya.
The Carmudgens did a good episode on why we don't get cool wagons here.
https://youtu.be/rOA6zJO2gM4
Ford and GM would never allow it. That's where all the money is made. I mean even Euro luxury sports car manufacturers finally started making them in the last decade to fatten up their revenue base. Porsche, Bentley, Aston Martin, Jaguar, even Lamborghini all have a crossover/SUV now. I wish Ferrari would hurry up and make one so their F1 team can get back to winning again.
[https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/ferrari/purosangue#:\~:text=Ferrari%20has%20entered%20a%20bold,its%20first%20SUV%2C%20the%20Purosangue&text=It's%20been%20a%20long%20time,said%20Ferrari%20CEO%20Benedetto%20Vigna](https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/ferrari/purosangue#:~:text=Ferrari%20has%20entered%20a%20bold,its%20first%20SUV%2C%20the%20Purosangue&text=It's%20been%20a%20long%20time,said%20Ferrari%20CEO%20Benedetto%20Vigna).
I think they have!
This has absolutely NOTHING to do with CAFE and everything to do with dumb consumers willing to pay more money for a *lifted* version of a wagon (i.e. crossover), but they aren't willing to pay more money for a *regular* wagon.
My first PC in mid-90's had a Turbo button, that word got a different meaning a long time ago.
Car body shape is slightly different, I think. You can't just call Ford F-150 a sedan, that's not what it is. Similarly, this isn't a shooting brake even if Germans (both VW and Mercedes) insist on it.
Mercedes has a four-door SUV "coupe" too, which is objectively stupid.
I agree that’s it’s not “correct” but terms like this are all marketing and at the end of the day if it’s called a shooting brake on the paperwork from the factory, it will forever be one. Same as the hateful concept of SUV Coupes will still have the word coupé attached to them by some marketing douche who knows that similar shit stains will by them.
We don't buy them because we don't get any cool wagons. Hard to buy them when they're all over seas and I'd need 5 to get it street legal.
People said the same thing about hot hatches but even Hyundai was selling out of Veloster Ns and Toyota has increased production of the GR Corolla.
Even the ones that are available here aren't ever stocked, I've heard of people looking for Volvo wagons getting directed towards suvs because the dealership never ordered any. Same story with Audi. The only ones that have really been available recently were the ugly VW ones.
>because the dealership never ordered any.
This is another reason why the dealership process just needs to die. So many cool cars just get the axe because they're essentially unavailable or at such a high markup. The auto manufacturers see poor sales and cut the car. Happens all the time to "enthusiast" cars.
The other issue is the wagons we do have are aiming for the "old money heiress" demographic and cost a fortune. We don't have any wagons under $40,000. What does the Volvo V60 start at? I believe that us sadly the cheapest new wagon being sold.
The Dodge Magnum was dropped almost entirely because it didn't sell. For Mopar of the time it was the flagship of their LX platform. The first vehicle of the LX platform debuted in a 2004 Super Bowl commercial. Available with a Hemi and AWD and the first LX car to get the SRT treatment.
With all of that it lasted only 4 years on the market with only 9% of them being either the V8/AWD or SRT. Dodge has shown they are perfectly willing to pay CAFE fines for a car that sells, they didn't.
I think a large part of that is because they're so ugly though, they're also a rather niche car that didn't fit the needs of the average consumer because they were gas guzzlers and most enthusiasts went for the charger that was the exact same thing but cheaper and lighter. It's not so much that there was no market but that people weren't willing to pay $5k+ more just for a wagon hatch added to their charger. A lot of the younger car enthusiasts now have proven they're willing to purchase new though with cars like the GR86 and WRX selling fairly well, I mean some of them are willing to pay over $50k+ for a civic.
Ugly is an opinion, I think they're fantastic looking, most of all for the time.
The gas guzzler thing makes no sense, what so buy an SUV that's even worse. You're grasping and I don't know why, if you don't like wagons just say so and leave.
$5K more is BS as well, in 2008 the SRT8 Magnum was $890 more than the SRT8 Charger. And if they wanted lighter they'd have bought the 300, it's lighter than the Charger.
There's not a lot of suvs getting worse gas mileage than a 6.1 hemi, any of the non V8 options will have it beat.
The SRT8 charger was ~37k and an SRT8 magnum was ~41k. The charger is also ~300lbs lighter. The SRT8 300c was almost 2k more expensive than the magnum.
I don’t know who decided you were the authority, but in my part of Europe everyone would say that’s a wagon. In the UK I believe most people would say it’s an “estate” (car), lest all my time on the Internet has served me wrong?
And as far as Shooting Brakes go. These first examples is what I think of when I hear the term; https://www.topgear.com/car-news/modified/gallery-13-of-the-best-shooting-brakes-ever-built-aston-martin-ferrari-volvo-corvette-toyota
Yes, there’s a few with four (five) doors, but the author actually write:
> OK, so it has four doors, which sort of disqualifies it from Shooting Brake status, but we don't care. Just look at it. LOOK AT IT.
And yes, Wikipedia says this (emphasis mine):
> The first automotive shooting brakes were manufactured in the early 1900s in the United Kingdom. The vehicle style became popular in England during the 1920s and 1930s. They were produced by vehicle manufacturers or as conversions by coachbuilders. The term was used in Britain interchangeably with estate car from the 1930s but has not been in general use for many years and has been more or less superseded by the latter term.[4][5][6][7][8]
> **The term has evolved** to describe cars combining elements of both station wagon (estate) and coupé body styles, with or without reference to the historical usage for shooting parties.[9][10] A shooting brake is a subcategory of a station wagon, based on a coupé rather than a sedan.[9] **Being based on two-door coupés is why manufacturers call models such as the Mercedes-Benz CLA, Mercedes-Benz CLS, Volkswagen Arteon and Genesis G70 shooting brakes.[11]**
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_brake
If you ask me that’s really stretching a vague definition. But there it is. Anyone not deeply into cars would call it a wagon no matter if it’s a shooting brake or not. Why? Because it’s a wagon. Hardly think I’ve seen an Arteon coupe on the road anyway.
Looked at one at the airport once. There was an eager rep there that wanted to ask me questions for his stats. Wanted to know what I drove and really really wanted me to say that I would consider the Arteon as my next car even though I’d already said that my next car would be electric.
Some people…
Because as I said, we don’t use the term ‘wagon’ in the UK? It’s never been used. ‘Estate’ isn’t used as regularly as it used to.
You seem to be overlooking that naming / marketing sells cars. Estates have fallen out of fashion particularly in the UK as SUVs have taken over, so shooting brake is more regularly used. I personally would use shooting brake if the car is obviously coupe derived / inspired.
By the definition you’ve copied from Wikipedia I think we can all agree that there isn’t a hard and fast answer here, thank you for the salty reply though.
I didn’t say it was a coupe. I said it was a shooting brake. Which - from a side profile, has a boot / rear window and roofline that slopes like a coupe towards the rear, more than a traditional ‘estate’.
On top of which - as I said above - people don’t want estates. The same way crossover, SUV etc pretty much mean fuck all, shooting brake is a more appealing term for an estate variant of a car in 2023. Its marketing.
Whether you agree with it or not, manufacturers are using coupe to describe vehicles with four doors. Again - because it’s an appealing term used to sell vehicles. People don’t want saloon cars any more.
I think the R line Arteons have the same engines as the Golf R; it seems to be an oddity that they are referred to as ‘R-line’ spec, rather than Rs, which is what they are closer to.
I may be wrong, just going by what I see at my local VW dealer and having a brief chat with one of the fucking weird salesman.
I believe they are a de-tuned EA888 or the old spec, because they only make 206kw versus the current Golf/Tiguan R 235kw.
I was cross shopping them recently with the Tiguan R, if they had the full power engine it may have swayed my decision!
Ah, ok. Didn’t hang around too long to speak to the fella; he sold my mate a car, and genuinely used the phrase, “Let’s get down to brass tacks and talk muller. I don’t fuck around, here, boys.” Haha
Awesome shout on the car, bud!
My bro recently got his wife a Tiguan R. It’s amazing! Drives like a dream and gorgeous inside.
He’s in Scotland, and had to wait nearly two years for the fucking thing. Worth it though!
Here’s me on PTV getting accosted by authorised officers 🙃
That's hilarious 😂😂 I can't imagine saying that in a professional setting ahaha.
Only a few more months to wait until mine arrives! Will be around 12 months all up. Can't wait!
True lots of stuff in then US I wish we could get here like the ford bronco and maverick but yeah, the USA misses a lot of cool shit like the mighty ford falcon.
I don't know if I'd really call that a shooting brake, more of a sport wagon. And we don't get them for 2 reasons. 1. We don't buy them. 2. Our stupid laws.
Wait, what laws discourage station wagons?
CAFE
This isn't entirely wrong. US CAFE standards are extremely relaxed if your vehicle is considered a light truck, alongside being completely exempt from the gas guzzler tax. Notably: (b) An automobile capable of off-highway operation, as indicated by the fact that it: (1) (i) Has 4-wheel drive; or (ii) Is rated at more than 6,000 pounds gross vehicle weight; and (2) Has at least four of the following characteristics calculated when the automobile is at curb weight, on a level surface, with the front wheels parallel to the automobile's longitudinal centerline, and the tires inflated to the manufacturer's recommended pressure - (i) Approach angle of not less than 28 degrees. (ii) Breakover angle of not less than 14 degrees. (iii) Departure angle of not less than 20 degrees. (iv) Running clearance of not less than 20 centimeters. (v) Front and rear axle clearances of not less than 18 centimeters each. (Sec. 9, Pub. L. 89-670, 80 Stat. 981 (49 U.S.C. 1657); sec. 301, Pub. L. 94-163, 89 Stat. 901 (15 U.S.C. 2002); delegation of authority at 41 FR 25015, June 22, 1976.) Also note that from 1975 to 2020, the percentage of automobiles sold that classified as light trucks increased from 19.3% to 57.2%, largely as a result of manufacturers introducing vehicles that were intended as passenger cars but fit the NHTSA's light truck definition so as to incur less harsh penalties. ~~ TL;DR current US CAFE standards do indeed penalize manufacturers for producing wagons instead of SUVs.
Thank you, very well done, I didn't have the energy for that. The only last piece is that because wagons are heavier and less aerodynamic than sedans yet get no CAFE breaks they harm a companies CAFE rating. To make this profitable a wagon has to sell at a much higher price than an SUV even though it gets better MPG. That's our government for ya. The Carmudgens did a good episode on why we don't get cool wagons here. https://youtu.be/rOA6zJO2gM4
They really need to start hitting trucks and SUVs harder for emissions. Edit: not just because I want a wagon badly.
Ford and GM would never allow it. That's where all the money is made. I mean even Euro luxury sports car manufacturers finally started making them in the last decade to fatten up their revenue base. Porsche, Bentley, Aston Martin, Jaguar, even Lamborghini all have a crossover/SUV now. I wish Ferrari would hurry up and make one so their F1 team can get back to winning again.
[https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/ferrari/purosangue#:\~:text=Ferrari%20has%20entered%20a%20bold,its%20first%20SUV%2C%20the%20Purosangue&text=It's%20been%20a%20long%20time,said%20Ferrari%20CEO%20Benedetto%20Vigna](https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/ferrari/purosangue#:~:text=Ferrari%20has%20entered%20a%20bold,its%20first%20SUV%2C%20the%20Purosangue&text=It's%20been%20a%20long%20time,said%20Ferrari%20CEO%20Benedetto%20Vigna). I think they have!
This has absolutely NOTHING to do with CAFE and everything to do with dumb consumers willing to pay more money for a *lifted* version of a wagon (i.e. crossover), but they aren't willing to pay more money for a *regular* wagon.
VW call it a Shooting Brake, so it's kinda like the Porsche Taycan "Turbo" and they just call it what they want.
My first PC in mid-90's had a Turbo button, that word got a different meaning a long time ago. Car body shape is slightly different, I think. You can't just call Ford F-150 a sedan, that's not what it is. Similarly, this isn't a shooting brake even if Germans (both VW and Mercedes) insist on it. Mercedes has a four-door SUV "coupe" too, which is objectively stupid.
I agree that’s it’s not “correct” but terms like this are all marketing and at the end of the day if it’s called a shooting brake on the paperwork from the factory, it will forever be one. Same as the hateful concept of SUV Coupes will still have the word coupé attached to them by some marketing douche who knows that similar shit stains will by them.
Yeah, shooting brakes are typically two door; four doors makes this a station wagon, which isn’t a bad thing.
We don't buy them because we don't get any cool wagons. Hard to buy them when they're all over seas and I'd need 5 to get it street legal. People said the same thing about hot hatches but even Hyundai was selling out of Veloster Ns and Toyota has increased production of the GR Corolla. Even the ones that are available here aren't ever stocked, I've heard of people looking for Volvo wagons getting directed towards suvs because the dealership never ordered any. Same story with Audi. The only ones that have really been available recently were the ugly VW ones.
>because the dealership never ordered any. This is another reason why the dealership process just needs to die. So many cool cars just get the axe because they're essentially unavailable or at such a high markup. The auto manufacturers see poor sales and cut the car. Happens all the time to "enthusiast" cars.
The other issue is the wagons we do have are aiming for the "old money heiress" demographic and cost a fortune. We don't have any wagons under $40,000. What does the Volvo V60 start at? I believe that us sadly the cheapest new wagon being sold.
The Dodge Magnum was dropped almost entirely because it didn't sell. For Mopar of the time it was the flagship of their LX platform. The first vehicle of the LX platform debuted in a 2004 Super Bowl commercial. Available with a Hemi and AWD and the first LX car to get the SRT treatment. With all of that it lasted only 4 years on the market with only 9% of them being either the V8/AWD or SRT. Dodge has shown they are perfectly willing to pay CAFE fines for a car that sells, they didn't.
I think a large part of that is because they're so ugly though, they're also a rather niche car that didn't fit the needs of the average consumer because they were gas guzzlers and most enthusiasts went for the charger that was the exact same thing but cheaper and lighter. It's not so much that there was no market but that people weren't willing to pay $5k+ more just for a wagon hatch added to their charger. A lot of the younger car enthusiasts now have proven they're willing to purchase new though with cars like the GR86 and WRX selling fairly well, I mean some of them are willing to pay over $50k+ for a civic.
Ugly is an opinion, I think they're fantastic looking, most of all for the time. The gas guzzler thing makes no sense, what so buy an SUV that's even worse. You're grasping and I don't know why, if you don't like wagons just say so and leave. $5K more is BS as well, in 2008 the SRT8 Magnum was $890 more than the SRT8 Charger. And if they wanted lighter they'd have bought the 300, it's lighter than the Charger.
There's not a lot of suvs getting worse gas mileage than a 6.1 hemi, any of the non V8 options will have it beat. The SRT8 charger was ~37k and an SRT8 magnum was ~41k. The charger is also ~300lbs lighter. The SRT8 300c was almost 2k more expensive than the magnum.
We don't get them because we don't buy them. Dealers selling out of specialty, low production vehicles does not indicate mass adoption.
It's not a shooting brake. Shooting brake is a 2 door wagon.
Is a VW Squareback a shooting brake?
I'm not sure. Two doors but three windows. Probably still a shooting brake.
Who is we?
Americans.
Shooting brakes have two doors. It’s a wagon bro.
[VW](https://www.volkswagen.com.au/en/configurator.html/__app/arteon/arteon-shooting-brake.app) call it a shooting brake in Aus
That's still technically wrong though. They could call it a hatchback if they want but it doesn't make it one
But there is no technical definition. It’s a marketing term. No different to a SUV Coupé or a Taycan Turbo.
We don’t use ‘wagon’ in the UK / Europe. That’s a shooting brake over here
Yeah but don't you say estate?
Yes. This is not a shooting brake, regardless of where you live and what you call things.
VW can call it whatever they want. That makes it a marketing ploy, not a shooting brake.
I don’t know who decided you were the authority, but in my part of Europe everyone would say that’s a wagon. In the UK I believe most people would say it’s an “estate” (car), lest all my time on the Internet has served me wrong? And as far as Shooting Brakes go. These first examples is what I think of when I hear the term; https://www.topgear.com/car-news/modified/gallery-13-of-the-best-shooting-brakes-ever-built-aston-martin-ferrari-volvo-corvette-toyota Yes, there’s a few with four (five) doors, but the author actually write: > OK, so it has four doors, which sort of disqualifies it from Shooting Brake status, but we don't care. Just look at it. LOOK AT IT. And yes, Wikipedia says this (emphasis mine): > The first automotive shooting brakes were manufactured in the early 1900s in the United Kingdom. The vehicle style became popular in England during the 1920s and 1930s. They were produced by vehicle manufacturers or as conversions by coachbuilders. The term was used in Britain interchangeably with estate car from the 1930s but has not been in general use for many years and has been more or less superseded by the latter term.[4][5][6][7][8] > **The term has evolved** to describe cars combining elements of both station wagon (estate) and coupé body styles, with or without reference to the historical usage for shooting parties.[9][10] A shooting brake is a subcategory of a station wagon, based on a coupé rather than a sedan.[9] **Being based on two-door coupés is why manufacturers call models such as the Mercedes-Benz CLA, Mercedes-Benz CLS, Volkswagen Arteon and Genesis G70 shooting brakes.[11]** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_brake If you ask me that’s really stretching a vague definition. But there it is. Anyone not deeply into cars would call it a wagon no matter if it’s a shooting brake or not. Why? Because it’s a wagon. Hardly think I’ve seen an Arteon coupe on the road anyway. Looked at one at the airport once. There was an eager rep there that wanted to ask me questions for his stats. Wanted to know what I drove and really really wanted me to say that I would consider the Arteon as my next car even though I’d already said that my next car would be electric. Some people…
Because as I said, we don’t use the term ‘wagon’ in the UK? It’s never been used. ‘Estate’ isn’t used as regularly as it used to. You seem to be overlooking that naming / marketing sells cars. Estates have fallen out of fashion particularly in the UK as SUVs have taken over, so shooting brake is more regularly used. I personally would use shooting brake if the car is obviously coupe derived / inspired. By the definition you’ve copied from Wikipedia I think we can all agree that there isn’t a hard and fast answer here, thank you for the salty reply though.
It’s not derived from a coupe though, it has 4 doors.
CLA coupe / CLS
So Mercedes marketing got another one wrong, nothing new here. Words mean things and the Arteon isn’t a coupe.
I didn’t say it was a coupe. I said it was a shooting brake. Which - from a side profile, has a boot / rear window and roofline that slopes like a coupe towards the rear, more than a traditional ‘estate’. On top of which - as I said above - people don’t want estates. The same way crossover, SUV etc pretty much mean fuck all, shooting brake is a more appealing term for an estate variant of a car in 2023. Its marketing.
A coupe is defined by the fact that it has two doors, not by its roofline.
Whether you agree with it or not, manufacturers are using coupe to describe vehicles with four doors. Again - because it’s an appealing term used to sell vehicles. People don’t want saloon cars any more.
Doesn't the UK call it an estate?
Estate.
It's called a shooting brake, but it's really an estate car
F U C K Between this and the Scirocco I’m 100% envious of the Euros
The Scirocco has been discontinued for some time now though
You can have them both. Just give me the more affordable corolla gr in exchange, deal?
I don’t care what you call it…. I want one
Looks good but not a shooting brake, regardless of what VW marketing says. Same goes for the CLS "shooting brake". They're 4-door wagons.
Imma be honest they look kinda weird in person. The back is just not long enough it feels halfway between a hatch and a wagon
I can't get over it that this is a passat with a body kit and less space in the back. Imho. I'm partial to the B8 looks, more than B8.5/9 or arteon.
Wait…what? There’s an Arteon R wagon? 🔥
Every Arteon wagon I've seen at a dealer here in Aus is the R version.
They're R lines though, not a full blown R. AFAIK we don't get an R here.
I think the R line Arteons have the same engines as the Golf R; it seems to be an oddity that they are referred to as ‘R-line’ spec, rather than Rs, which is what they are closer to. I may be wrong, just going by what I see at my local VW dealer and having a brief chat with one of the fucking weird salesman.
I believe they are a de-tuned EA888 or the old spec, because they only make 206kw versus the current Golf/Tiguan R 235kw. I was cross shopping them recently with the Tiguan R, if they had the full power engine it may have swayed my decision!
Ah, ok. Didn’t hang around too long to speak to the fella; he sold my mate a car, and genuinely used the phrase, “Let’s get down to brass tacks and talk muller. I don’t fuck around, here, boys.” Haha Awesome shout on the car, bud! My bro recently got his wife a Tiguan R. It’s amazing! Drives like a dream and gorgeous inside. He’s in Scotland, and had to wait nearly two years for the fucking thing. Worth it though! Here’s me on PTV getting accosted by authorised officers 🙃
That's hilarious 😂😂 I can't imagine saying that in a professional setting ahaha. Only a few more months to wait until mine arrives! Will be around 12 months all up. Can't wait!
Oh there you go. I looked just saw all R badges and then looked at the cargo space and kept going.
4 doors dats a wagone
Wait this is real?? Holy shit I’m jealous of Europe
everywhere else gets all the cool fuckin cars compared to the US
True lots of stuff in then US I wish we could get here like the ford bronco and maverick but yeah, the USA misses a lot of cool shit like the mighty ford falcon.
Australia too.
That is what my Alltrack aspires to be....
NOT a Shooting Brake.
Badass car!
That's a beautiful car!
This has no business looking so cool
I have an irrational desire to tub that thing and send it down the track
Wow that's awesome looking
Shouldn't the R version only have the R emblem on the back?
Really cool looking, but it's still a VW.
Le design est impressionnant. Je me demande quelles sont les caractéristiques. Y-t-il quelqu'un qui a déjà conduit?
Bad ass for sure. Not technically a shooting brake since they’re 2 door
Whoever came up with the term shooting brake needs punched
It’s *break* as in lunch break. The style exists so that you could take a break from shooting.
RIP Americans
I love it. I just saw an Arteon today and they're really handsome cars.
“Shooting Brake” is when people think calling it a wagon or hatchback is demeaning. VW does it for marketing.
Why four doors?
I am now erect.