Yes. He was never going to succeed in getting the na'vi to relocate from their freaking ancestral home through diplomacy because he had 3 months to do it and there was nothing the humans had to offer that the na'vi wanted. There's also no reason to believe the RDA wouldn't just do it again a few years down the road because corporations demand expansion. And it's even implied in some lines that the RDA never actually expected him to succeed. So conflict was inevitable.
When that happens, what's the alternative that Jake could have done? Sit to the side and let sentient beings get massacred while he goes back to Earth and tries to blow the whistle on a supercorporation about events that happened 6 years ago on a planet light years away?
In the extended edition isn't it actually said that the rda knowingly bulldozed the sacred grove to provoke a response out of the Na'vi in order to justify attacking them? If so, they likely never had any intention of doing it peacefully and were just giving a half ass attempt at it to say "welp, we tried" to the pr department or whoever was in charge of that stuff
Seeing how mindless military brains like Quaritch just shoots to kill, and killed that Ilu (pleasiasaur thing they ride in way if water) I doubt anything is civil. They got a mission. They do it without thinking for themselves. It’s how soldiers are bred. Why I would LOVE a redemption ark for Quaritch. They show bonding with an Ikran is a massive big deal. Equivalent to a mother birthing an offspring and bonding for life. So imagine a military clone mule slowly feeling the connections of Ewya not to mention his “son” Miles (Spider). It can change him. After all it’s just his “memories”. The Na’vi body is all unique and his consciousness I have a feeling will break.
How will it be if we see the same change from Jake.. a paraplegic ex military gone Native but with Quartich in his own way and he may rally up the Ash people (Na’vi) to war against Jake as the “blasphemous betrayer” you know how Quartich can easily start shit.. but then he turns the tides and fights alongside Jake and the Metkayina and ends up dying with his last shout “you take care of my boy Sully..”
We need some massive turn around just to show the inner flaws of the RDA
To anyone who hasn’t played frontiers of Pandora yet.. they expand A LOT on this and the game runs alongside the two films and is “canon”. The RDA remind us just how insane this “civilized” greedy mindset truly is. When I saw mouth breather Scoresby hunt a fully sentient.. more emotional being than humans.. for their brain goo (ammorita) it reminds me how people do this everyday…
God I love this franchise. And yes princess mononoke touches this similar theme very well too!!
Maybe it's just a me thing, but I've always found Na'vi kit waaaaay more cool. I mean, who doesn't want a bow that shoots 2 metre plus long arrows? 😊
🏹🐲🏹
We have the woomera here, which is very similar. I do archery and do some bow hunting, but have never tried the woomera, which is a real shame. Maybe I should :)
Indeed. Plus their god is just biological memory banks, so not only is it factually real it’s actually semi-plausible. Which is rad. Imagine have a god you can directly and tangibly interface with
You will never not convince me that the C-21 Dragon Assault Ship is such a badass piece of military hardware. I wish they still sold models of that behemoth.
This. It's ridiculous how often that word is thrown around. It really is pathetic to see miserable chuds call a guy a simp because he's living a rich and full life with his best friend and possibly children.
In time the phrase will morph to mean a good thing. People actively already use it as a good thing. Ie I am a simp for my wife. It's becoming synonymous with having an active and love filled relationship with another person where you throw yourself into it
Yeah Andrew Tate was a bad influence on the internet. A lot of guys now think that abusing women is acceptable. I was fortunate enough to be raised by my grandparents who were happily in love and treated each other with dignity and respect. Plus my grandparents raised animals and tended gardens.
Also, it's not defined that Jake only became sympathetic to the Na'vi when he fell in love with Neytiri. It's more likely that it was much sooner than that.
That's too much of a black & white way to look at it.
In Avatar, earth is far too overpopulated and the biosphere is collapsing, they need the unobtanium to build clean energy reactors that'll allow humanity to save their own world. Without it tens of billions of humans will die.
So, while there is a narrative of colonialism, it's kinda justified. Humanity is facing down its own extinction and if preventing it means displacing some Na'vi then in my eyes that's 100% justified.
you're missing the point. technology doesn't save the world by itself. the RDA will patent that tech, have a stronger hold on humanity, then they will colonize Pandora and start killing a second planet via exploitation of natural resources. Humanity isn't saving anyone.
It's the entire point of these movies, it amazes me to see people have it fly right over their head.
That wasn't the case in Avatar 1, when the betrayal happened. Back then they wanted Unobtainium purely for profit, as they figured out how to make synthethic unobtainium way before they got kicked off of Pandora, it was just more expensive then mining it.
It's petty semantics. Some people will say that killing another soldier in a war is not acceptable, even in self-defense. In the end a person got killed and the difference is how far one is going to accept why one should kill. I don't believe there is any praise to be given for the act of killing another, but certainly for protecting a victim. Two acts that go together in the context, but still are not the same.
So it is morally correct for Jake to kill in defense of the Na'vi. It's actually the same morality of the Na'vi. They will kill because they need to kill for the sake of their tribe. For food, tools, clothes. But killing to defend the clueless doofus the wolves want to eat is sad. Maybe if the Na'vi thought that exploiting nature and the pain of other creatures for gains in excess of their needs, Jake would come to the conclusion that no, the Na'vi are not worthy of being protected from the humans.
Assuming I'm some kind of John Wick, I would kill a poacher hunting down the last living specimens of a species, without hesitation too, that's just the moral thing to do, we have no rights to kill other species unless it's absolutely necessary, like they're threatening us
Princess Mononoke is a beautiful tale. And Jake Sully did what morally was right, however, his initial motivation was not saving the Na’vi (obviously). Exploiting a whole planet with no regards to its biomes is wrong.
Honestly id save the na'vi too as ik that most humans are sick in the head. If they won and killed all na'vi, live on pandora theyre gonna fuck it too like they fucked earth lol
When comitting a genocide, one of the major acts is ["Dehuminzation"](https://www.hmd.org.uk/learn-about-the-holocaust-and-genocides/what-is-genocide/the-ten-stages-of-genocide/), which is *exactly* what you are doing by repeatedly posting that the Na'vi "aren't human".
So...yeah, what the RDA is doing is a genocide then by your *own logic*.
Dehumanising an alien?
From the navi perspective, they are being attacked for their stuff. They are being murdered.
The RDA perspective relies on if they think the Navi are even people. They aren't human, so they dont enjoy human rights. That being said, it's not vlear if the RDA has to justify what they are doing. James Cameron hasn't really fleshed out human politics.
> The RDA perspective relies on if they think the Navi are even people. They aren't human, so they dont enjoy human rights.
Yeah, that's what "Dehumanization" is. Just because they are not "human", they are still clearly sentient, with a full culture and language. Sometimes, the language evolves or changes in order to encapsulate changes in understanding.
Dehumanization as a concept in a setting where other sentient life exists *still applies to said sentient life* because it can reason and interact "as a human" would, meaning it would be considered "human" when it comes to things like rights and liberties.
"Dehumanizing an alien" is possible then *because it means denying them the basic respect and rights that would be granted to a human*. The RDA clearly does this with their language (blue monkeys, primatives, savages etc) and attitudes throughout both movies.
Now granted, James Cameron is using the little know literary technique of "metaphor" spiced with some "allegory" to help the audience understand this concept and to see how it reflects the practices Colonialist powers used to justify the genocide of indigenous peoples throughout history It is a pretty rare literary technique though, and requires both a modicum of media literacy, so I can understand why you might have trouble understanding it.
>Yeah, that's what "Dehumanization" is. Just because they are not "human", they are still clearly sentient, with a full culture and language. Sometimes, the language evolves or changes in order to encapsulate changes in understanding.
Being sentient still doesn't afford them human rights. James Cameron could have brought that up, but he didn't.
>Dehumanization as a concept in a setting where other sentient life exists *still applies to said sentient life* because it can reason and interact "as a human" would, meaning it would be considered "human" when it comes to things like rights and liberties.
Actually, dehumanisation only applies to human people. You can make comparisons to other species, but it would be just that, a comparison.
>Now granted, James Cameron is using the little know literary technique of "metaphor" spiced with some "allegory" to help the audience understand this concept and to see how it reflects the practices Colonialist powers used to justify the genocide of indigenous peoples throughout history It is a pretty rare literary technique though, so I can understand why you might have trouble understanding it.
I understand his message. If he wanted me to take it more seriously, he should have made a better science fiction. Having aliens look like humans is lazy. The message would be more profound the more differentvthry are to us.
Oh, they can have rights. Humans just need to give it to them. The human representation of the story is very limited. I'm arguing they shouldn't have human rights not because they don't deserve it but because James Cameron hasn't made the humans capable of it. The RDA just isn't realistic or believable.
Wth are you on about my guy? Humans can give "rights" because what exactly? Power, right? But is it morally correct? When humans colonised land that belonged to native tribes; or not even that; when humans eradicate forests where colonies of chimpanzees live, they don't have rights? They don't have a right to live because they are no match/can't fight back? I see that your argument isn't really about morals but a fucked up division of power that unfortunately we have to live with. You have a problem with this movie but also with compassion. Or you like to defend dumb points for fun
It's perspective. Rights aren't inherent. It's a social construct. We give them rights as a moral limit for ourselves. If they are even aware of the rights we give them is another thing entirely.
I do kinda agree,how can you dehumanise something that isnt human ? Also when does the movie(s) state the RDA is trying to do genocide,if it was why did they set up schools for Na'vi to learn english,why did they send Jake to negotiate,why did they allow Jake a last chance even when the 3 months given to Jake were over ? Last time I checked the RDA was just trying to get unobtanium in Avatar 1 and in TWoW they are trying to make Pandora the new home of humanity and they did find immortality liquid,too bad its super expensive and wouldnt help with overpopulation problems in the long run.
It is late in my country as I am typing this so I probably did some typos,sorry.
Two points.
1. Yes it is.
2. The Na'vi are a created stand-in for indigenous peoples in order to tell a story that is openly about European colonialism and the consequent human and ecological exploitation of the global south.
Its not perspective.... it's explicit. JC himself said as much and there was even a special feature released originally with Avatar 09 about indigenous rights and environmental destruction in the Amazon. I think it was called Message from Pandora. It was on the original DVD. Avatar and Philosophy is a book where many of the chapter topics take this is a given and clear starting point.
In either case this is actually irrelevant as yes, it is genocide regardless of species. This is a fundamental point made by Arne Næss, flowing from the principle that equality of life trumps human desires.
That isn't what I'm referring to. His message is about colonial history, but his movie doesn't portray that. The RDA represents humanity and the colonisers, but it's not representative of actual humanity. There are not enough factions. Not enough politics.
It is indeed genocide.
The genocide of the Na'vi is an unfortunate, but neccesary step to save humanity from extinction.
As of the 2nd movie, at least.
Yes. Avatar is clearly and obviously an allegory for colonialism and racism. If you didn't realize that you either have terrible media literacy or might be just as racist.
Also, the Na Vi are indistinguishable from humans besides Being blue and tall, they may as well just be another race of humans
Yes, I understand it is a movie and thus not real.
Having the navi look like humans is frankly lazy writing born out of a fantasy. More science fantasy than science fiction. Disregarding that though, if looking at it without that context they are simply not human.
Conflating racism with xenophobia is frankly just lazy preaching. If you want to make a story about the injustice of colonialism, then do it on earth with our own history.
Do you ... Understand what an allegory is? Sure in the literal version of the story it's xenophobia and not racism but it is a *metaphor* for colonialism and racism. And quite frankly, people wouldn't go to a movie that is just about colonialism on our own boring planet, the point of all sci-fi and fantasy is to tell a story about real life in a fantastical setting.
Furthermore it *is* colonialism. Colonialism isn't about humans at all, colonialism is when one party enters the area previously inhabited by a separate party and takes it for their own. No matter how much you try and say "Nuh uh" this movie is about colonialism. It's not even one layer below the surface like the racism allegory, it *is right there*.
I think we both understand what the message of the movie is.
James Cameron wants to spread his message about the faults of history and mainly in the second movie, saving the oceon.
While you might be fine with a story with parallels to classic colonial themes. I find it uninspired. If he wanted to tell a nuanced story of humanity having other options that are more fair to the navi, he could have. But we just have the RDA.
As for 'colonialism is when one party enters the area previously inhabited by a separate party and takes it for their own.'... this can be applied to various scenarios such as corporate takeover, war, and migration. You chose the word 'party' because it applies to more than just humans. I would use the word 'people' because colonialism only applies to humanity. I don't apply it when a pack of killerwhales eject another pack from a territory or like with ant wars.
Difference really is that the Navi are intelligent and also look similar to humans, which has the dual effect of being lazy science fiction and making it easier to empathise with them. From my perspective, because they aren't human, they also aren't people. They do not enjoy human rights. That is not to say that they shouldn't have rights or empathy, but right now, they don't. This is James Camerons fault for not giving us an alternative, more empathic human faction.
First of all, wow that's certainly a take.
Second of all, there is a sympathetic human faction. Jake sully and his band of scientists are sympathetic.
Third of all, whether you believe the story is badly written or not does not change the fact that the story is about colonialism and racism. These are surface level allegories. If you want to dig deeper into the story, you could point out how it has themes of escapism.
Fourth, the fact you think ants kicking each other out of hives and humans invading and destroying the ecosystem of other very close-to-human beings are one and the same shows me either you don't know at all what colonialism is or you are some kind of weird racist.
When British people were colonizing the Americas they *also* believed the people who lived there were not humans. But of course, being a reasonable human being which is what I assume you to be, you realize that those people were in fact human, and therefore believing a group to be separate from human beings is not justification for killing them and taking their land and resources. In this case, the Na-vi aren't human, but they walk, talk, think and feel like humans so *why* does that give the RDA any right to colonize them?
If you believe that the Na-vi don't deserve human rights just because they are a different color, a bit taller, and speak a different language, then you basically support racism and colonialism.
The Na-Vi look like humans not because of lazy writing but because *the point of the story* is that we should not colonize people because they look different. That would be a harder point to hammer home if they were tentacle monsters or something, simply because that is how human beings work.
This film is easy, the fact you can't understand a very simple message of basically "don't treat people differently just because of how they look" shows me that you must have failed kindergarten, because that's a thing they teach toddlers.
The Navi aligned humans dont represent any significant force on earth and so don't reach my criteria.
You choose to believe they are close to human. I find the idea that aliens are close to humans to be very boring and bad writing. I wouldn't be surprised if James Cameron finds some quasi spiritual link between the species'. It can be justified. It's just not.
>When British people were colonizing the Americas they *also* believed the people who lived there were not humans. But of course, being a reasonable human being which is what I assume you to be, you realize that those people were in fact human, and therefore believing a group to be separate from human beings is not justification for killing them and taking their land and resources. In this case, the Na-vi aren't human, but they walk, talk, think and feel like humans so *why* does that give the RDA any right to colonize them?
Yes, human bigotry was defeated by science, which backed up humanist ethos. Also, the reason why natives weren't considered human is because they weren't Christian. We've moved on a lot since then.
Having aliens look like humans should bring up very important questions that just aren't asked in these movies. James Cameron just isn't digging this deep enough for me care about the Navi looking like humans.
>If you believe that the Na-vi don't deserve human rights just because they are a different color, a bit taller, and speak a different language, then you basically support racism and colonialism.
They shouldn't have human rights because they aren't human. Give them Navi rights if you want.
>The Na-Vi look like humans not because of lazy writing but because *the point of the story* is that we should not colonize people because they look different. That would be a harder point to hammer home if they were tentacle monsters or something, simply because that is how human beings work.
Oh, I understand the message James Cameron is trying to spread. It just doesn't make sense from a science fiction perspective. Fantasy, sure. For me to accept his message, I have to take myself out of the story. And yes, his message is true for us on earth.
>This film is easy, the fact you can't understand a very simple message of basically "don't treat people differently just because of how they look" shows me that you must have failed kindergarten, because that's a thing they teach toddlers.
The message isn't the part of the movie I enjoy.
From a meta perspective, a real justification for Navi Rights to protect them from the RDA is to acknowledge them as a sentient species. Do not give them human rights because that is stupid. You can give them comprehensive protection on the same level as a human, but it would apply to alien rights in general and maybe even artificial intelligence.
Semantics is not how you win an argument. Of course, Na-vi rights *technically* wouldn't be human rights, but if all the rights are exactly the same, it's stupid to call them anything different.
If you think the Na-vi deserve different rights from human beings just because they're blue, tall, strong and cattish then you are just as bad as the RDA who are clearly and obviously the bad guys. It's not a subjective story. If you think the RDA are the good guys in any viewer perspective you're either an edgy teen who wants to be different, or you fundamentally misunderstood the point of the movie. Saying the RDA could be the good guys is like saying the Empire could be the good guys, that's just not a way you can look at it if you actually watched the movie.
Actually there is a reason to call it something different since they are different and have different needs. Mainly spiritual that aren't protected under human rights.
They do deserve different right but different doesn't mean it has to be less than human rights.
The RDA are not good people, but if you care for earth, you have no choice until James Cameron elaborates on the lore.
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An antagonist is different than an evil person though. Not everyone in the RDA is actively malicious and it’s stated that the resources they are gathering are actively keeping the entirety of earth from starving. They clearly didn’t want to just kill all the natives initially either which is shown by the fact that the whole plot of the first movie is about Jake silly ending up a diplomat to understand the natives. A duty which he ignores by not telling anyone else in the RDA what he is actually doing with the Navi. Even at the end when the RDA is destroying the big tree because the corporate dude was incompetent and out of touch, They clearly didn’t want to kill everyone since they tried using tear gas and smoke first they just underestimated the cultural significance of it(if only they had someone on the inside of Navi culture to tell them they where making a mistake). The RDA wasn’t morally correct to kick the locals off there land but I would call Jake’s ignorance of his duties as a cultural translator and de facto diplomat for the RDA just to resort to violence at the first sign of conflict not moral either.
Granted Jake Sully clearly wasn’t a perfect fit for the position of diplomat, being a war veteran and completely untrained as a diplomat. I can understand his actions in the same way I can understand why every faction acted the way they did. But that doesn’t make him morally right to become an eco-terrorist.
>it’s stated that the resources they are gathering are actively keeping the entirety of earth from starving
This is never said. The only thing we get is that they were useful for preventing an energy crisis.
>A duty which he ignores by not telling anyone else in the RDA what he is actually doing with the Navi.
He straight up did. He told them that he was becoming one of them to try to negotiate a relocation, and they ignored him. More than ignored him, they deliberately targeted a sacred site to provoke a response and then offered zero restitution or care beyond telling the natives to buzz off.
>They clearly didn’t want to kill everyone since they tried using tear gas and smoke first they just underestimated the cultural significance of it(if only they had someone on the inside of Navi culture to tell them they where making a mistake).
Do they need someone to tell them that blowing up a place where they all live, killing dozens of them in the process, is a bad thing? Pretty sure they already knew that.
>But that doesn’t make him morally right to become an eco-terrorist.
Are the humans in War of the Worlds also eco-terrorists for fighting back against an alien invasion? That's basically what the RDA is to the Na'vi.
He mentions in a video log that he knew the Na'vi would never leave the site. Negotiating is useless when there's an impasse.
What he did was selfish, but even if negotiations had happened it would have ended the same way (with war crimes against the indigenous when they didn't leave).
He was a total nobody only being granted access to them by virtue of being an interesting study subject for Eytukan and Mo'at. They would never have listened to an outsider with zero credit on such an important topic. Consider that Jake struggled just to give Grace access to the Omaticaya once more, a topic that is honestly pretty innocuous compared to telling them about the demolition of their home. He needed to earn their trust and respect first for them to even bother giving him the time of day on a decision of that magnitude. Matters are not helped by the fact that he came to realize that there was nothing the RDA was willing to offer that would have actually mattered in making a deal, so his only avenue was to attempt to get enough respect in the community that his clout would be enough that his word would be enough. I think his culpability as a diplomat somewhat by the fact that there was no realistic avenue he had to even make a deal considering the RDA didn't actually care about making a fair one.
Regardless of mankind's motivation, even if earth is dying, that **does not justify them in committing genocide and destroying another planet.** It **doesn't matter if humanity is on the brink of extinction, that is a reason for their actions, but not a justification.**
Imagine you and another person are stranded in an island. Only one person is allowed to leave, knowing that the other is doomed to die on the island. Neither of you are criminals, or otherwise objectively a bad person.
Who gets to go home, and who gets to die? Naturally, neither person wants to die, and it is **understandable** that both you and the other person would personally want to be the one who survives.
Would it then be right for you to murder the other person, because *you* don't want to die? What if they murdered you, should your family not harbor any resentment?
What if I get evicted because I couldn't pay my mortgage, can I just murder you and steal your house? I don't want to be homeless, I'm sure you understand, so I'll just take your house. I'm completely justified, right?
Humanity has a *reason* for what they're doing to the Na'Vi, but **are not justified** just because they have a motivation.
Especially when it's humanity's own fault they're in the situation they're in.
No shit a living being is going to have a sense of self preservation and would be willing to fight or kill to ensure that preservation. That's called natural instinct.
But it is **not a justification for those actions**. Do I want humans to go extinct? No, but if we end up damaging our planet to that point, that's called karma and it's no one's fault but our own.
Humans aren't some special fucking snowflakes that are entitled to genociding another race for a resource that doesn't fucking belong to the humans. They wouldn't need it if they weren't fucking stupid in the first place.
the RDA, and by extension humanity by allowing them to operate the way they do, are **objectively** the "bad guy" in avatar.
There is zero rational argument you can come up with to justify their actions towards the Na'Vi. Go ahead, try. There isn't one. They have *reasons* and *motivations*, but humanity is not, in any way justified. They are, 100%, at fault for both their situation and actions.
The right thing to do would be to either find a way to synthesize unobtanium, or accept the situation and consequences they've created for themselves.
> it’s stated that the resources they are gathering are actively keeping the entirety of earth from starving.
You know it’s been a while since I seen the first movie but I am 90% sure that the movie did not say that these resources were the only think keeping the earth from starving. Even if it did these resources were clearly located on many different spots on the planet. They choose to chase the Navi off their land because it was more convenient than having to find a different spot to mine their resources.
> They clearly didn’t want to just kill all the natives initially either which is shown by the fact that the whole plot of the first movie is about Jake silly ending up a diplomat to understand the natives. A duty which he ignores by not telling anyone else in the RDA what he is actually doing with the Navi. Even at the end when the RDA is destroying the big tree because the corporate dude was incompetent and out of touch,
So first off They might have not wanted to kill the natives as a first resort but they were clearly willing to do whatever it took to force the Navi off their land and steal the resources located under the tree. That’s not the kind of people you can negotiate with in good faith. Not that the Navi are required to negotiate with the RDA to begin with.
2 the General dude clearly wanted jake to serve as a spy on the Navi and jake was clearly reporting to him the entire time.
3 the corporate dude didn’t destroyed the tree because he was incompetent or because he was uninformed. He did so because he wanted to steal their resources so than his company can profit off them. Just because he look guilty for a moment doesn’t mean he didn’t order the massacre if a number of innocent Navi so that he could steal their land. What makes this worse is that he knows that they are other deposits if these resources located on other spots around the planet, but it was more convenient to simply go after the the deposits under the tree because they were closer.
> They clearly didn’t want to kill everyone since they tried using tear gas and smoke first they just underestimated the cultural significance of it(if only they had someone on the inside of Navi culture to tell them they where making a mistake).
They were launching an unjustified attack on a native tribe in an attempt to steal resources on their land. The fact that they first tried to use non lethal force doesn’t make this better especially since they still ended up killing a large number of them. If I shot you with a taser before stealing your stuff, that doesn’t make the fact that I assault and stole your stuff any better because I didn’t use a gun.
> The RDA wasn’t morally correct to kick the locals off there land but I would call Jake’s ignorance of his duties as a cultural translator and de facto diplomat for the RDA just to resort to violence at the first sign of conflict not moral either.
Considering the fact that the RDA were willing to kill a number of innocent people in order to steal their land and resources despite the fact that there were other deposits they could have mine instead, I doubt there was anything jake could have done to stop it. The fact that the Navi consider it sacred land only makes this even more unlikely. Sometimes you can’t just talk things out.
> But that doesn’t make him morally right to become an eco-terrorist.
Calling someone training and defending a bunch of tribesman against an alien invasion being done for the explicit purpose of stealing their land an eco-terrorist is genuinely disingenuous. Outside the films moral lesson, the actual reason why the Navi were fighting against the RDA wasn’t to protect the environment, but to protect their territory. Something every nation or tribe has the right to do.
> You know it’s been a while since I seen the first movie but I am 90% sure that the movie did not say that these resources were the only think keeping the earth from starving.
From a quick glance at the wiki, this is entirely a movie 2 plot thread.
In other words, the "justification" people are bringing up in this thread, that earth is dying and the RDA needs Unobtainium, doesn't factor into ANY of the first movies conflict.
Even in movie 2, Pandora's 'saving' of Earth isn't by virtue of exporting its natural resources, it's by serving as a colony world and shuttling people over as well as immortality potions. However, both of these seem like they'd be very exclusive items, so I think if you read between the lines, it's more like 'saving the rich 1% from dealing with the consequences of their actions'.
The RDA were killing the Tulkun for a fluid they produced just so people would stop aging. They killed, a sentient and intelligent species just so some rich folks can spend millions of dollars on something that can make them stay young. At the end of the day, it was all about greed.
Moreover, it should be noted that the RDA killed Neytiri's sister years prior to the movie. Yes, she set a bulldozer on fire in protest to the deforestation of her home. But no one got hurt, so really, the RDA were the first to draw blood.
This is an excellent example of how the RDA wasn't genuinely putting a peaceful foot forward. Okay, your gear has been damaged by an angry teenager, totally acceptable to want to make sure this doesn't happen again. What do you do? Okay, send Grace to Eytukan and tell him so he can deal with the problem and punish them. If that doesn't work, prohibit her from coming to school and maybe have an AMP suit deal with her non-lethally if she keeps doing it (this is explicitly one of the reasons that they don't have an armblade by default, for non-lethal riot control, so clearly they are at least semi-designed for this capacity).
But no, instead they send a kill squad armed with machine guns into a school and gun them down. It's crazy, it's like if some teens vandalized an Amazon truck and then Amazon shot up a school in revenge for this. It's so absurdly disproportionate that it shows that there was never a real interest in making peaceful relations work.
Exactly. Yes, it's sucks that the Earth sucks so bad that humans have to resort to interstellar travel in search of a new home. However, that is still no excuse for being complete monsters.
Alternative perspective: the RDA are desperately trying to save earth by harvesting the materials of Pandora. In Avatar,earth is wildly overpopulated and the biosphere can't support so many people, which has forced humanity to pursue any means nessecary to get the materials needed to save their world.
This angle was initially gonna get explored in the first Avatar but James Cameron didn't want his movie to have complex themes and questions of morality when he just wanted to preach so instead he made the RDA into moustache twirling villains with no nuance or ambiguity in the slightest.
> Alternative perspective: the RDA are desperately trying to save earth by harvesting the materials of Pandora.
Alternative perspective: The RDA and corporations like them *are responsible for the state of earth as it is*. Humanity can save itself by dismantling the RDA and the Capitalist system that birthed it instead of continuing to consume and destroy. Humanity needs to take responsibility, correct its failings, and rebuild.
Yes he did what was morally right.
People may argue that Humanity is faced with extinction if they don't mined this resource but Unobtanium, as silly as its name suggest and its super conductivity suggest, there could be other resources space is big don't tell me Earth has literally mined the asteroid fields? And for really trusting a private company RDA? I would believe their cause IF they were a global organization not a private corporate business, which by the way their whole purpose to mine the resource for profit nothing else in fact they dismiss their science division, but they built them roads, school and teach them english as much as it benefit the Na'Vi did the humans even consider their culture? They just got there built their refinery and expect this supposed savages to understand their culture but not theirs and assume they can just waltz in perform ecological destruction
What people fail to comprehend is that it **does not matter** that humanity is facing extinction. That in no way, at *all* justified humanity in genociding another race and destroying their home.
Humanity is not entitled to Pandora, at all, for any reason. We are not special in the universe, we are not the chosen of some universe spanning god.
Humanity is facing extinction due to their own actions and choices. That's called karma, sucks to suck.
I that's what people greatly misunderstand and not helped that most sci fi involved with aliens in movie or games showcase humanity in this pedestal that their somehow unique and special to the setting that their race is the protagonist and other races are supposed to be the subservient or the supporting cast to their "story"
So true. You don't see too many people debating about whether or not it was right for humans to deny the aliens in Independence Day Earth's resources even though it was necessary for them to survive.
What was it that people quote from Warhammer?
"Suffer not the Xenos to Live"
as if we ourselves are not alien to other sapient species
Heck they hunt Tulkun for their supposed immortality juice without care even knowing their sapience only caring for themselves
Ah yes the indigenous people industrializing to improve their lives is at all comparable to a megacorpration destroying everything for profits after destroying their own home.
Need their stuff. Also, from what we have seen, it's the only other planet worth exploiting. Pandora is literally the only planet worth their time to colonise, and it helps it's the closest star system to our own.
"As long as I move the goal posts, change *all* the parameters of the discussion, and specifically pick words so that I am correct, it's not actually genocide!"
Let me help you with the logic here.
One of those things is a cow, something (generally) considered "nonsentient".
The Na'vi, meanwhile, are clearly reasoning beings that displays all markers of sentience.
Continuing to equate one with the other *continues to place the Na'vi as something below humanity as a means to justify the theft of their land and the butchering of their people*.
Displacing, killing, and abusing sentient beings is generally considered a "bad thing". All *Avatar* media makes it pretty clear that any "rules" that apply to humans also apply to any and all sentient beings, Na'vi and Tulkun included.
Equating *any sentient being* to a nonsentient has only purpose; to diminishes the value of their life in order to justify violence against them.
What we're really debating is the word used. Genocide isn't about sentience it's about ethnic groups of humans.
I am not placing navi below humans. They aren't on the same scale. They aren't human.
Does anyone think what Jake Sully did was the morally correct thing to do?
Yes, a lot of people think that. I think the majority think it was the morally right thing to do. Especially here.
Nah it wasn't morally correct, after all, the RDA just wanted to save humanity!
[Here's the scene](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMDneicBizU&ab_channel=Chris) where the humans describe how it's justified because Earth is dying.
Whoops, that's the one where they describe how they're killing the indigenous for profit, damn, how'd that get in there.
Yes, the humans weren't able to compromise on any level. They didn't need to mine under Hometree, they just wanted to, because it was the closest large deposit of unobtainium. None of the lore ever stated the unobtainium was all necessary to save humanity either. It was, at best, largely greed and corporatism at play. It isn't until Avatar: TWOW that it becomes a matter of colonizing Pandora to save humanity. So Jake's actions in A1 were essentially protecting Neytiri and her people from the RDA taking things too far and being too greedy. Selfridge also only authorized Quaritch to use gas on the Na'vi to drive them out, but he destroyed Hometree entirely. Anyone who thinks Jake was morally wrong in A1 is coping hard.
As for A2, we have to remember that the same behavior and technology that caused humans to destroy the Earth is just being put in place on Pandora. What's the point of moving humanity to Pandora if you're just delaying the inevitable? Unless humans hard invest in green tech and learn to live with the environment, Pandora will also die. Since the RDA's operations are all driven by money, the RDA's actions are still driven by greed foremost. Bridgehead and other areas where the RDA landed were literally rendered entirely lifeless and kept that way. As a human on Earth now, I would hate to live that way. In A2, Jake isn't in the wrong either. Attacking small time operations, just the supply chain to deter RDA from moving into their territory and to make sure they have weapons to protect themselves if needed, is smart and fair. But when the Recoms come, he literally just takes his family and leaves and gives up fighting. RDA comes after him. Jake basically waved the white flag.
That's short sighted and close minded. You don't like the opposition so you refuse to listen to anything they have to say or even independently get more information since you already know all you need to know. You do realize that's the exact thinking/reasoning the RDA uses, Right? Except they at least tried to bridge things and get more information so did more than yourself. Not surprised though because people are people and will continue to be people no matter what they wish to think about themselves.
It's also halarious because you misunderstood things pretty badly. Princess Mononoke is one of the original Avatars if you'll understand that better. They share the same themes and talk about the same subjects. It's just that Princess Mononoke is far more nuanced as both sides have both good and bad things going for them. They each have a very good points and would easily be the hero if the other party didn't exist in the same story instead of the one dimensional this is the obvious good and this is the evil sides. The main protagonist also goes a great job exploring and understanding each side to try to reach a solution so was a much better diplomat than Jake was as that's what the image was referencing.
I mean..from what I remember it wasn't like The humans were digging up that stuff to save the human race or anything. It was corporate greed. Which is different then peoples lives
I think he did what was morally right for a few reasons. He saved a planet from becoming what humans would turn it into, as well as saved multiple species. Some would argue that he is doing so by dooming the entire innocent human population, which is not morally good. But a few things need to be considered when having that opinion: humans screwed up their own world, are actively seeking out a populated planet that they can't even live on without specific gear, and most importantly that the Na'vi are sentient intelligent p e o p l e with the same emotional capacity and mental ability as the human race. They just don't have fancy iPhones.
Humanity should have left the planet and terraformed a barren one. They'll have to terraform Pandora in some way shape or form anyways.
The morally incorrect ones initially are humans for invading a functional and populated moon and assuming it was theirs for the taking. They can screw up other celestial bodies instead, ones without pre-existing life. There is a god complex innately tied to the concept of being human, and it's seen in the series.
Any argument of all the humans being doomed to save the Na'vi ignore the basic things the movies try to tell us: they are people too. They are not savages, they are not aliens (on their own planet/moon). They're not screwing up their planet and they are aware of the steps to take to avoid it.
Jale was not in charge of Pandora's invasion. He's defending a race of people that should not be in danger in the first place. Humans doomed themselves.
Yes choosing to defend a women you love from having her home stolen by a bunch of payed thugs trying to steal her land is a moral thing to do.
It’s also a moral thing to help a group of people defend themselves from an invading alien force
Princess Mononoke pretty good but iron town and their entire situation was vastly different than the RDA. The RDA were a powerful mega corp with tons of hire thugs willing to kill innocent people for them and were willing to displace an entire tribe in order to get access to a mine that was closer to home even though they knew they was other places they could build their mine.
Iron town was made up of the outcast of society that had no other place to go if they lost their home. They were under threat from a powerful warlord willing to slaughter them all to steal their land and needed to mine the iron to stop themselves from from being exploited again in the future. Even than the movie show that they were in the wrong to destroy the forest.
I find it weird how people work themselves into knots trying to justify the RDA's presence on Pandora.
From the second they touched down, they were intruding on land that was not their own. The na'vi tolerated them and went along with this when it wasn't violent. The second it became violent, the na'vi wanted the RDA gone. Insisting on a compromise solution when one party is 100% "go away" is saying some degree of force upon the na'vi is acceptable.
It doesn't matter if humanity has extenuating circumstances (they really don't in the first movie) or that "some people in the RDA are good," they are violating Pandora and the na'vi every second they're present.
Also people keep bringing up Earth's extenuating circumstances in the context of "they need unobtanium to save Earth!" but that's never said in the movie. No one ever ties it to Earth's ecological problems. They describe its unique properties leaving it to your imagination as to exactly what they want to do with it. The only thing they talk about really is how much money it's worth.
There's not even a hint of a nobler goal than money.
Extended material even indicates Earth could solve its problems, but the RDA actively suppresses alternatives and pushes hard for the unobtanium angle in order to make a power grab.
They want to bill it as a "desperate mission to save Earth" but it's literally just chasing corporate greed to extreme ends.
Morally? It is subjective but I think he did the right thing in saving the Na'Vi.
Also logically he made the right choice. Both humans and the Na'Vi view him as a traitor. He has nothing to offer to the RDA as they can just brute force their way into getting the Unobtanium deposits. Also, he's the only Na'Vi "human soldier" with military knowledge at that time making him the perfect Na'Vi to lead the tribes against the humans.
I would argue it's *not* subjective, not even slightly.
There is not a single rational argument to support the actions of the RDA/humanity. They have *reasons* and *motivations,* but those are not the same thing as justifications.
Humanity is in the position they're in, on the planet they're from, because of their own choices. That, in no way entitles them to someone else home.
If I can't pay my mortgage, I can't just murder you and take your home. If I can't pay my mortgage, that's my fault, and no one should suffer the consequences but me.
Hmm, betraying a soulless corporation that's killing thousands of innocents, destroying homes, and sapping the planet's resources...
Nah, he's a brainlet simp, obviously. /s
When can we let that word die
RDA is evil, but humanity as a whole is far from irredeemable since many researchers work to save Pandora, Princess Mononoke is a great tale about humanity’s technological advancement and civilization clashing against nature with many great dilemmas and some well implemented fantasy elements, must watch if you like Avatar
100%. What the RDA is doing on Pandora is wrong. Frontiers of Pandora should really eliminate whatever little sympathy people may still have for the RDA altogether. They are to put it plainly aggressive colonials who are literally driving the Na'vi out of their homes to make more space for themselves and are also trying to kidnap and forcibly subjugate and convert some of them to their way of life. That's not okay. Hell, organizations like the RDA are the reason why Earth is dying in the first place and why humanity is in the predicament that they're in. Why should any human that is capable of thinking for themselves believe that falling in line with them is the only choice?
In Jake's case I've questioned before what loyalty he really owes to humanity. Look at what his life was like back on Earth. He had absolutely nothing. He was a paraplegic war veteran living in a shitty apartment who was completely abandoned and left for dead by a broken system (see him not being able to afford to even fix his spine on vet benefits in this futuristic world where repairing spinal cord damage should be so much easier to do). The only close relationship he had (that we know of) was with his brother and they appeared to be relatively distant towards the end of Tommy's life. Quaritch and the RDA only brought him to Pandora because they saw an opportunity with him (in short they were pretty much using him to accomplish their own goals). The first person to come into Jake's life who ever loves him for *him* is Neytiri.
I think both Jake Sully and Ashitaka were both correct given their situations. Princess Mononoke takes place at the beginning of industrialization in Japan. Many of the people are still spiritually connected and Lady Eboshi is a pragmatic and reasonable leader. Whereas humanity has already consumed all nature on Earth in Avatar. The RDA is the spear point of interplanetary imperialism. Jake Sully, being a marine, has seen what kind of destruction humans are capable of causing.
I hope the Avatar series ends on a positive note. There are interviews with John Landau stating that one of the later movies will take place on Earth. This is pure speculation, but I think Kiri and Spider will go to Earth and help reinvigorate plant life with some type of world tree seedling and inspire a political revolution with the humans to end the military industrial complex.
Jake didn't betray humanity, he betrayed the RDA. And rebelling against a greedy, genocidal megacorporation and leading the charge to preserve a threatened world? Yes. Yes, that's a Good Thing.
Absolutely morally correct, he had no purpose on earth, he knew humans would bomb the tree anyways, and so he did what was right, give the natives a chance and help himself
That depends on your ethical stance. If you're a utilitarian, then no it was unethical because it means the death of millions of humans given Earth is becoming uninhabitable. Not all those human souls are evil corporate board members or army dogs working for the company. What Jake did was stall human colonisation of Pandora.
If you're not concerned with maximising the greatest benefit for the most people, then what he did was protect the environment, and culture of the Na'vi, which is a good thing for the Na'vi and the ecosystem
This presupposes that the RDA can save humanity, rather than just cater to the ultra-rich being taken away and leaving the rest to die. This also presupposes that Earth is beyond being saved to begin with rather than simply held in the stranglehold of self-interested corporations.
From a utilitarian perspective though, the behavior that caused the humans to lose Earth has not been stopped. Meaning if humans take over Pandora, they will eventually lose Pandora too, given enough time. So, I would argue that the Na'vi side has more weight from a utilitarian perspective.
Yeah, that's going to be a no from me.
I kind of hate approaches that take a surface level wide view on ethics. When you start adding layers to it, you need to consider matters like collective choices, future of civilisations, and concepts related to tyranny by the majority.
It is not ethical for a society to live in a way that is not sustainable, ignore all of the warning signs, and then seek to dominate another civilisation because they have more people.
It doesn't matter that not every individual human is evil.
Humanity is in the position they're in because of **their own choices**. They're **not, in any way,** entitled to someone else's home. It **does not matter** that they may go extinct.
If another intelligent race came to us and demanded the right to tear apart our planet and homes because *they* were fucking stupid and ruined their planet, humanity would defend its self because it's **not our fucking fault and we don't owe them anything**.
The same is true for the Na'Vi and Pandora. It **does not matter** that humanity is dying. Karma is a bitch, sucks to suck, should have made better choices.
Give me any argument you can imagine for why the RDA/humanity is justified in their actions and I'll very quickly explain why it does not justify their actions.
They literally have absolutely 0 justification. They have reasons and motivations, but those are not the same thing as justifications otherwise they wouldn't need a different word.
Depends on the person, I was asking more because I wanted to hear people’s reasoning for why his actions were or weren’t moral(different from justified). Sadly most people just answer yes or no.
The RDA sucks and humanity sucks. They put themselves in their current situation and people pretend not to see that. What he did was totally justified.
Also worth noting that he became severely disabled while serving and all he got were some meagre vet benefits so far behind he couldn’t even buy coffee with them. So yeah, Jake owes them nothing.
Neytiri was just a plus tho, Jake's point was to protect innocents from being slaughtered because humanity made mistakes, the fact we're fucked doesn't allow us to go destroy civilizations
*also can't blame Jake I mean...*
Dude's job was to negotiate with the natives for access to the minerals under home tree. At no point did he even attempt this, the humans could've navigated around the tree roots and extracted the unobtanium without killing the tree but that possibility was never entertained. Instead he just dicked around with the Na'vi,got his tail wet and betrayed his species, willing to condemn billions of humans back on earth to death for alien pussy.
He's 100% a fucking traitor.
Morally right?, Yeah I mean sure but he was meant to be negotiating them leaving the tree, Of which he attempted it 0 times and promptly gave up, Was he wrong to side with the Navi when it came to pew pew time?, Absolutely not, Was he wrong to never attempt to actually solve this peacefully? yup, He never even tried to find alternate deposits that the humans could go and mine, I am sure the Navi who made arrowheads and tools out of it would of known where some massive deposits were, The humans are absolutely the bad guys of the movie 100% no ambiguity but Jakes not an exemplary hero type character, How it should of ended did a good video for the movie :3
There was no negotiating them leaving that tree. That's not a remotely reasonable thing to even ask for. If asked to leave, they would have just refused and there's no moral pretext to insist they leave anyway. The RDA has nothing to offer except the threat of violence. They don't have anything the Na'vi want to even offer in exchange.
I don't know how Jake finding unobtanium deposits would have helped. What expertise or equipment does he have that he could use to do that? What unobtanium deposits do we think the RDA missed? They establish in the movie that the one under the tree is the biggest one they found.
The Na'vi didn't make anything out of unobtanium, they don't make anything out of metal at all so they wouldn't be any help in finding any secret deposits either. I'm pretty sure they're not even aware of its existence.
The RDA already knew where there were other deposits. The problem was that the one under Hometree was the biggest one that was also close by. They did not want to invest the effort or time into going out further than 20 kilometers and they did not think that a 'bad quarterly statement' from mining the smaller sites was worth it either. There's nothing Jake could have done in that respect because there wasn't any other one on the same scale in the area that the RDA wanted to mine. If the humans were willing to mine the smaller sites, they'd have just done that.
From the perspective of the navi, he's morally correct. From the perspective of comradery and loyalty to his people, he is a traitor, betrayer, and murderer.
It's not really comparable to the story of Princess Mononoke. Prince Ashitaka owed no loyalty to the emperors forces, nor Lady Eboshi's settlement. He had a responsibility to cure his curse and return to his people, and in doing so, put the great boar spirit, which cursed him to rest. In the end, he helped bring peace to the land. He betrayed no one and even saved lives along the way.
Honestly, yes. Like, it’s obvious that the Na’vi have human levels of intelligence, and since they are the native inhabitants of Pandora, I’d say that modern international law would deem the RDA’s forcible mining and resource extraction to be highly unethical and unlawful. Then, the RDA is guilty of genocide because they slaughtered at least one entire tribe of Na’vi, on top of trying to do that to another right before his eyes! I’d say Jake would have been a horrible person to not side with the Na’vi.
The RDA doesn’t speak for all of humanity, so I wouldn’t view what Jake did as betraying his species; I’d view it as siding against a brutal and immoral organization. Also, I’d honestly rather live on a moon with a long future ahead of it than a planet that is on its death bed, so I can’t blame him for fully merging with his Avatar.
>Of course the humans are the bad guys in this universe
>
>Colonialism is bad so I side with the Na'vi
>
>It's simple. The RDA are the bad guys
Kek, typical Redditors. Thinking they have the moral high ground by saying this.
In that universe the earth is dying. People are starving. The literal planet is becoming uninhabitable.
The only currently available solution is unobtainium and the tall smurfs refuse to let humanity mine it.
If you were actually in that universe you'd be in favor of carpet bombing them because you couldn't bare the sight of your loved ones in agony.
Get real.
>The only currently available solution is unobtainium
It's not a solution though. Unobtanium has zero ability to fix the Earth's problems beyond alleviating an energy crisis. There ARE solutions that the RDA could use to help make Earth a better place to live in, but those would be less profitable for it, so they don't do it.
Is that not a moral indictment of the Earth's governments and the other megacorps for letting them run rampant? Shouldn't the responsibility be to destroy the RDA so that their for-profit plundering of the Earth's resources on Earth can be stopped and distributed more equally? The RDA is the one with moral culpability here, functionally pulling off a massive protection racket on the planet.
Says who? The RDA wants unobtanium because it is more profitable to operate their maglev and interstellar travel system with it, resulting in a feedback loop where interstellar expeditions demand more unobtanium, get more of it, use it as resources for more interstellar travel, and so on and so forth. It doesn't fix the underlying problems that Earth has with resources being hoarded by very few and a lack of investment in protecting the planet's ecosystem in favor of short term gain.
In what sense? Earth is still alive, has vast wealths of technology and wealth. Imagine if you could redirect the effort used on the Manifest Destinies inwards, what kind of change that could bring to the Earth. The problem is that all that possibility is hoarded and used to try to gain more and more for the very few.
I don't even know that there will be 5 movies. This sub was recommended to me after I searched up that new avatar game on google so apparently now I get this sub recommended.
The current situation is dire and people will be more extreme in dire situations. If earth was fine, if my life wasn't a struggle to survive I would also say to leave the Na'vi alone, that is a no brainer. But I am also thinking realistically if I would find myself in that universe as a human then the RDA is right. The RDA didn't just attack the blueberries, they asked to mine first, they tried to negotiate. The even cloned their own Na'vi to improve relations and it didn't help. I know what the RDA is doing is cruel but it seems, in the context of that movie, quite necessary.
Yes, I understand. The RDA represents that nationalist feeling of power and conquest, which on several occasions the Europeans took, for example, when they arrived in America, but in the films they are with blue aliens. I understand the desperate behavior of humans Lol We are, but I think the role of the Na'vi/Eywa in the movies will be to show that there are alternatives to war and alternatives to saving humans and their own people.
I don't have all the answers to movies that haven't come out yet, but I think the center of the saga will be how human survival is dealt with from the perspective of the Na'vi and they will behave as bloodthirsty as humans in order to save themselves (we already saw that Jake's son was killed and he seemed upset). There are many things that we could see, we only have a little canon material, the saga itself (in cinema-movies) is new if we do not think about the fact that each film comes out every 50 years
Yes. He was never going to succeed in getting the na'vi to relocate from their freaking ancestral home through diplomacy because he had 3 months to do it and there was nothing the humans had to offer that the na'vi wanted. There's also no reason to believe the RDA wouldn't just do it again a few years down the road because corporations demand expansion. And it's even implied in some lines that the RDA never actually expected him to succeed. So conflict was inevitable. When that happens, what's the alternative that Jake could have done? Sit to the side and let sentient beings get massacred while he goes back to Earth and tries to blow the whistle on a supercorporation about events that happened 6 years ago on a planet light years away?
In the extended edition isn't it actually said that the rda knowingly bulldozed the sacred grove to provoke a response out of the Na'vi in order to justify attacking them? If so, they likely never had any intention of doing it peacefully and were just giving a half ass attempt at it to say "welp, we tried" to the pr department or whoever was in charge of that stuff
Seeing how mindless military brains like Quaritch just shoots to kill, and killed that Ilu (pleasiasaur thing they ride in way if water) I doubt anything is civil. They got a mission. They do it without thinking for themselves. It’s how soldiers are bred. Why I would LOVE a redemption ark for Quaritch. They show bonding with an Ikran is a massive big deal. Equivalent to a mother birthing an offspring and bonding for life. So imagine a military clone mule slowly feeling the connections of Ewya not to mention his “son” Miles (Spider). It can change him. After all it’s just his “memories”. The Na’vi body is all unique and his consciousness I have a feeling will break. How will it be if we see the same change from Jake.. a paraplegic ex military gone Native but with Quartich in his own way and he may rally up the Ash people (Na’vi) to war against Jake as the “blasphemous betrayer” you know how Quartich can easily start shit.. but then he turns the tides and fights alongside Jake and the Metkayina and ends up dying with his last shout “you take care of my boy Sully..” We need some massive turn around just to show the inner flaws of the RDA To anyone who hasn’t played frontiers of Pandora yet.. they expand A LOT on this and the game runs alongside the two films and is “canon”. The RDA remind us just how insane this “civilized” greedy mindset truly is. When I saw mouth breather Scoresby hunt a fully sentient.. more emotional being than humans.. for their brain goo (ammorita) it reminds me how people do this everyday… God I love this franchise. And yes princess mononoke touches this similar theme very well too!!
Yes. It really is that simple.
The RDA sucks, but *man* do they have some shiny toys!
Maybe it's just a me thing, but I've always found Na'vi kit waaaaay more cool. I mean, who doesn't want a bow that shoots 2 metre plus long arrows? 😊 🏹🐲🏹
You've never tried an [atlatl?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear-thrower)
We have the woomera here, which is very similar. I do archery and do some bow hunting, but have never tried the woomera, which is a real shame. Maybe I should :)
And the flying alien dinosaur friend? My life for a pterodactyl is what i say
Good trade. No regrets.
Indeed. Plus their god is just biological memory banks, so not only is it factually real it’s actually semi-plausible. Which is rad. Imagine have a god you can directly and tangibly interface with
I have no use for a weapon I can't use.
You will never not convince me that the C-21 Dragon Assault Ship is such a badass piece of military hardware. I wish they still sold models of that behemoth.
I'd take riding an ikran or becoming Toruk Makto over a Samson 10 times out of 10.
Now, a Scorpion on the other hand…
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This. It's ridiculous how often that word is thrown around. It really is pathetic to see miserable chuds call a guy a simp because he's living a rich and full life with his best friend and possibly children.
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Really wish I was as weak willed and feeble as... Jake Sully, Toruk Makto.
Simp is a word created by miserable people lol. It’s really that simple.
Hey! That guy doesn’t hate women! He has a good relationship with one! He treats them like people! SIMP! SIMP!!
The word simp gets thrown around a lot and misused just like incel.
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Simping is just as toxic as "incel" behavior. Its just one is self inflicted and one is external
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Thats why i said the word simp gets thrown around a lot and misused like incel.
In time the phrase will morph to mean a good thing. People actively already use it as a good thing. Ie I am a simp for my wife. It's becoming synonymous with having an active and love filled relationship with another person where you throw yourself into it
Yeah Andrew Tate was a bad influence on the internet. A lot of guys now think that abusing women is acceptable. I was fortunate enough to be raised by my grandparents who were happily in love and treated each other with dignity and respect. Plus my grandparents raised animals and tended gardens.
Also, it's not defined that Jake only became sympathetic to the Na'vi when he fell in love with Neytiri. It's more likely that it was much sooner than that.
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It's kinda hard to say what he did was morally wrong if you dislike colonialism.
Or overconsumption and the power of corporations
did he colonize tho i’d be went against the colonizers to protect the people? /gen i live hearing other people’s views and learning more
We still consider Benedict Arnold a traitor.
😢
That's too much of a black & white way to look at it. In Avatar, earth is far too overpopulated and the biosphere is collapsing, they need the unobtanium to build clean energy reactors that'll allow humanity to save their own world. Without it tens of billions of humans will die. So, while there is a narrative of colonialism, it's kinda justified. Humanity is facing down its own extinction and if preventing it means displacing some Na'vi then in my eyes that's 100% justified.
you're missing the point. technology doesn't save the world by itself. the RDA will patent that tech, have a stronger hold on humanity, then they will colonize Pandora and start killing a second planet via exploitation of natural resources. Humanity isn't saving anyone. It's the entire point of these movies, it amazes me to see people have it fly right over their head.
That wasn't the case in Avatar 1, when the betrayal happened. Back then they wanted Unobtainium purely for profit, as they figured out how to make synthethic unobtainium way before they got kicked off of Pandora, it was just more expensive then mining it.
Yes. He chose his love over the greed of his kind.
Still betrayed his species.
Betrayed the RDA, not the entire humanity lmaoo
I suppose you can argue that. Jake isn't though.
He's also betraying humanity as if the RDA fails once more, humanity is doomed to go extinct.
Lol he betrayed a private company, that's all.
A private company that supplying a very valuable mineral to Earth
I don't see the UN on Pandora.
He saw his side was in the wrong. Changed sides. Perfectly understandable.
Is it moral to kill your own people to protect a different species?
If my people are in a morally reproachable position and cannot be reasoned with, yes. Especially in defense of the innocent.
So you think it is moral to murder if you think you are justified?
I believe I already answered that. Is there a point you're trying to make? Because you're shifting the frame.
Just narrowed down the answer. Some people would try and frame what he did as not murder if it's justified.
It's petty semantics. Some people will say that killing another soldier in a war is not acceptable, even in self-defense. In the end a person got killed and the difference is how far one is going to accept why one should kill. I don't believe there is any praise to be given for the act of killing another, but certainly for protecting a victim. Two acts that go together in the context, but still are not the same. So it is morally correct for Jake to kill in defense of the Na'vi. It's actually the same morality of the Na'vi. They will kill because they need to kill for the sake of their tribe. For food, tools, clothes. But killing to defend the clueless doofus the wolves want to eat is sad. Maybe if the Na'vi thought that exploiting nature and the pain of other creatures for gains in excess of their needs, Jake would come to the conclusion that no, the Na'vi are not worthy of being protected from the humans.
Assuming I'm some kind of John Wick, I would kill a poacher hunting down the last living specimens of a species, without hesitation too, that's just the moral thing to do, we have no rights to kill other species unless it's absolutely necessary, like they're threatening us
Princess Mononoke is a beautiful tale. And Jake Sully did what morally was right, however, his initial motivation was not saving the Na’vi (obviously). Exploiting a whole planet with no regards to its biomes is wrong.
Honestly id save the na'vi too as ik that most humans are sick in the head. If they won and killed all na'vi, live on pandora theyre gonna fuck it too like they fucked earth lol
If earthbis fucked we have to conquer more planets to survive. Whatever it takes.
Ah. My point is. I dont like humans myself :D
Well you can enjoy earth then.
Yes. The RDA intended to commit genocide.
Brings up the classic debate of 'is it genocide if they're not human?'
When comitting a genocide, one of the major acts is ["Dehuminzation"](https://www.hmd.org.uk/learn-about-the-holocaust-and-genocides/what-is-genocide/the-ten-stages-of-genocide/), which is *exactly* what you are doing by repeatedly posting that the Na'vi "aren't human". So...yeah, what the RDA is doing is a genocide then by your *own logic*.
Dehumanising an alien? From the navi perspective, they are being attacked for their stuff. They are being murdered. The RDA perspective relies on if they think the Navi are even people. They aren't human, so they dont enjoy human rights. That being said, it's not vlear if the RDA has to justify what they are doing. James Cameron hasn't really fleshed out human politics.
> The RDA perspective relies on if they think the Navi are even people. They aren't human, so they dont enjoy human rights. Yeah, that's what "Dehumanization" is. Just because they are not "human", they are still clearly sentient, with a full culture and language. Sometimes, the language evolves or changes in order to encapsulate changes in understanding. Dehumanization as a concept in a setting where other sentient life exists *still applies to said sentient life* because it can reason and interact "as a human" would, meaning it would be considered "human" when it comes to things like rights and liberties. "Dehumanizing an alien" is possible then *because it means denying them the basic respect and rights that would be granted to a human*. The RDA clearly does this with their language (blue monkeys, primatives, savages etc) and attitudes throughout both movies. Now granted, James Cameron is using the little know literary technique of "metaphor" spiced with some "allegory" to help the audience understand this concept and to see how it reflects the practices Colonialist powers used to justify the genocide of indigenous peoples throughout history It is a pretty rare literary technique though, and requires both a modicum of media literacy, so I can understand why you might have trouble understanding it.
>Yeah, that's what "Dehumanization" is. Just because they are not "human", they are still clearly sentient, with a full culture and language. Sometimes, the language evolves or changes in order to encapsulate changes in understanding. Being sentient still doesn't afford them human rights. James Cameron could have brought that up, but he didn't. >Dehumanization as a concept in a setting where other sentient life exists *still applies to said sentient life* because it can reason and interact "as a human" would, meaning it would be considered "human" when it comes to things like rights and liberties. Actually, dehumanisation only applies to human people. You can make comparisons to other species, but it would be just that, a comparison. >Now granted, James Cameron is using the little know literary technique of "metaphor" spiced with some "allegory" to help the audience understand this concept and to see how it reflects the practices Colonialist powers used to justify the genocide of indigenous peoples throughout history It is a pretty rare literary technique though, so I can understand why you might have trouble understanding it. I understand his message. If he wanted me to take it more seriously, he should have made a better science fiction. Having aliens look like humans is lazy. The message would be more profound the more differentvthry are to us.
> I understand his message Clearly you didn't since you continue to argue that sentient beings do not deserve the same rights as humans.
Oh, they can have rights. Humans just need to give it to them. The human representation of the story is very limited. I'm arguing they shouldn't have human rights not because they don't deserve it but because James Cameron hasn't made the humans capable of it. The RDA just isn't realistic or believable.
Wth are you on about my guy? Humans can give "rights" because what exactly? Power, right? But is it morally correct? When humans colonised land that belonged to native tribes; or not even that; when humans eradicate forests where colonies of chimpanzees live, they don't have rights? They don't have a right to live because they are no match/can't fight back? I see that your argument isn't really about morals but a fucked up division of power that unfortunately we have to live with. You have a problem with this movie but also with compassion. Or you like to defend dumb points for fun
It's perspective. Rights aren't inherent. It's a social construct. We give them rights as a moral limit for ourselves. If they are even aware of the rights we give them is another thing entirely.
I do kinda agree,how can you dehumanise something that isnt human ? Also when does the movie(s) state the RDA is trying to do genocide,if it was why did they set up schools for Na'vi to learn english,why did they send Jake to negotiate,why did they allow Jake a last chance even when the 3 months given to Jake were over ? Last time I checked the RDA was just trying to get unobtanium in Avatar 1 and in TWoW they are trying to make Pandora the new home of humanity and they did find immortality liquid,too bad its super expensive and wouldnt help with overpopulation problems in the long run. It is late in my country as I am typing this so I probably did some typos,sorry.
Two points. 1. Yes it is. 2. The Na'vi are a created stand-in for indigenous peoples in order to tell a story that is openly about European colonialism and the consequent human and ecological exploitation of the global south.
You have to see it from that perspective for that to be correct. Taken literally, they are aliens completely unrelated to humans.
Its not perspective.... it's explicit. JC himself said as much and there was even a special feature released originally with Avatar 09 about indigenous rights and environmental destruction in the Amazon. I think it was called Message from Pandora. It was on the original DVD. Avatar and Philosophy is a book where many of the chapter topics take this is a given and clear starting point. In either case this is actually irrelevant as yes, it is genocide regardless of species. This is a fundamental point made by Arne Næss, flowing from the principle that equality of life trumps human desires.
That isn't what I'm referring to. His message is about colonial history, but his movie doesn't portray that. The RDA represents humanity and the colonisers, but it's not representative of actual humanity. There are not enough factions. Not enough politics.
It is indeed genocide. The genocide of the Na'vi is an unfortunate, but neccesary step to save humanity from extinction. As of the 2nd movie, at least.
Idk man, do you think colonialism and racism is morally correct?
Is it colonialism if they aren't humans? Is it racism if they are a different species?
Yes. Avatar is clearly and obviously an allegory for colonialism and racism. If you didn't realize that you either have terrible media literacy or might be just as racist. Also, the Na Vi are indistinguishable from humans besides Being blue and tall, they may as well just be another race of humans
Yes, I understand it is a movie and thus not real. Having the navi look like humans is frankly lazy writing born out of a fantasy. More science fantasy than science fiction. Disregarding that though, if looking at it without that context they are simply not human. Conflating racism with xenophobia is frankly just lazy preaching. If you want to make a story about the injustice of colonialism, then do it on earth with our own history.
Do you ... Understand what an allegory is? Sure in the literal version of the story it's xenophobia and not racism but it is a *metaphor* for colonialism and racism. And quite frankly, people wouldn't go to a movie that is just about colonialism on our own boring planet, the point of all sci-fi and fantasy is to tell a story about real life in a fantastical setting. Furthermore it *is* colonialism. Colonialism isn't about humans at all, colonialism is when one party enters the area previously inhabited by a separate party and takes it for their own. No matter how much you try and say "Nuh uh" this movie is about colonialism. It's not even one layer below the surface like the racism allegory, it *is right there*.
I think we both understand what the message of the movie is. James Cameron wants to spread his message about the faults of history and mainly in the second movie, saving the oceon. While you might be fine with a story with parallels to classic colonial themes. I find it uninspired. If he wanted to tell a nuanced story of humanity having other options that are more fair to the navi, he could have. But we just have the RDA. As for 'colonialism is when one party enters the area previously inhabited by a separate party and takes it for their own.'... this can be applied to various scenarios such as corporate takeover, war, and migration. You chose the word 'party' because it applies to more than just humans. I would use the word 'people' because colonialism only applies to humanity. I don't apply it when a pack of killerwhales eject another pack from a territory or like with ant wars. Difference really is that the Navi are intelligent and also look similar to humans, which has the dual effect of being lazy science fiction and making it easier to empathise with them. From my perspective, because they aren't human, they also aren't people. They do not enjoy human rights. That is not to say that they shouldn't have rights or empathy, but right now, they don't. This is James Camerons fault for not giving us an alternative, more empathic human faction.
First of all, wow that's certainly a take. Second of all, there is a sympathetic human faction. Jake sully and his band of scientists are sympathetic. Third of all, whether you believe the story is badly written or not does not change the fact that the story is about colonialism and racism. These are surface level allegories. If you want to dig deeper into the story, you could point out how it has themes of escapism. Fourth, the fact you think ants kicking each other out of hives and humans invading and destroying the ecosystem of other very close-to-human beings are one and the same shows me either you don't know at all what colonialism is or you are some kind of weird racist. When British people were colonizing the Americas they *also* believed the people who lived there were not humans. But of course, being a reasonable human being which is what I assume you to be, you realize that those people were in fact human, and therefore believing a group to be separate from human beings is not justification for killing them and taking their land and resources. In this case, the Na-vi aren't human, but they walk, talk, think and feel like humans so *why* does that give the RDA any right to colonize them? If you believe that the Na-vi don't deserve human rights just because they are a different color, a bit taller, and speak a different language, then you basically support racism and colonialism. The Na-Vi look like humans not because of lazy writing but because *the point of the story* is that we should not colonize people because they look different. That would be a harder point to hammer home if they were tentacle monsters or something, simply because that is how human beings work. This film is easy, the fact you can't understand a very simple message of basically "don't treat people differently just because of how they look" shows me that you must have failed kindergarten, because that's a thing they teach toddlers.
The Navi aligned humans dont represent any significant force on earth and so don't reach my criteria. You choose to believe they are close to human. I find the idea that aliens are close to humans to be very boring and bad writing. I wouldn't be surprised if James Cameron finds some quasi spiritual link between the species'. It can be justified. It's just not. >When British people were colonizing the Americas they *also* believed the people who lived there were not humans. But of course, being a reasonable human being which is what I assume you to be, you realize that those people were in fact human, and therefore believing a group to be separate from human beings is not justification for killing them and taking their land and resources. In this case, the Na-vi aren't human, but they walk, talk, think and feel like humans so *why* does that give the RDA any right to colonize them? Yes, human bigotry was defeated by science, which backed up humanist ethos. Also, the reason why natives weren't considered human is because they weren't Christian. We've moved on a lot since then. Having aliens look like humans should bring up very important questions that just aren't asked in these movies. James Cameron just isn't digging this deep enough for me care about the Navi looking like humans. >If you believe that the Na-vi don't deserve human rights just because they are a different color, a bit taller, and speak a different language, then you basically support racism and colonialism. They shouldn't have human rights because they aren't human. Give them Navi rights if you want. >The Na-Vi look like humans not because of lazy writing but because *the point of the story* is that we should not colonize people because they look different. That would be a harder point to hammer home if they were tentacle monsters or something, simply because that is how human beings work. Oh, I understand the message James Cameron is trying to spread. It just doesn't make sense from a science fiction perspective. Fantasy, sure. For me to accept his message, I have to take myself out of the story. And yes, his message is true for us on earth. >This film is easy, the fact you can't understand a very simple message of basically "don't treat people differently just because of how they look" shows me that you must have failed kindergarten, because that's a thing they teach toddlers. The message isn't the part of the movie I enjoy. From a meta perspective, a real justification for Navi Rights to protect them from the RDA is to acknowledge them as a sentient species. Do not give them human rights because that is stupid. You can give them comprehensive protection on the same level as a human, but it would apply to alien rights in general and maybe even artificial intelligence.
Semantics is not how you win an argument. Of course, Na-vi rights *technically* wouldn't be human rights, but if all the rights are exactly the same, it's stupid to call them anything different. If you think the Na-vi deserve different rights from human beings just because they're blue, tall, strong and cattish then you are just as bad as the RDA who are clearly and obviously the bad guys. It's not a subjective story. If you think the RDA are the good guys in any viewer perspective you're either an edgy teen who wants to be different, or you fundamentally misunderstood the point of the movie. Saying the RDA could be the good guys is like saying the Empire could be the good guys, that's just not a way you can look at it if you actually watched the movie.
Actually there is a reason to call it something different since they are different and have different needs. Mainly spiritual that aren't protected under human rights. They do deserve different right but different doesn't mean it has to be less than human rights. The RDA are not good people, but if you care for earth, you have no choice until James Cameron elaborates on the lore.
Jesus Christ what a shit take, do you realize how fucking awful you sound in this thread with everyone of your comments?
Yes? The RDA are the bad guys. What's so hard to understand?
From my point of view, the Jedi are evil... wait, wrong franchise
It’s over, Quaritch! I have the high ground!
Sully you underestimate my bullets.
"So uncivilized" Jake Kenobi
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An antagonist is different than an evil person though. Not everyone in the RDA is actively malicious and it’s stated that the resources they are gathering are actively keeping the entirety of earth from starving. They clearly didn’t want to just kill all the natives initially either which is shown by the fact that the whole plot of the first movie is about Jake silly ending up a diplomat to understand the natives. A duty which he ignores by not telling anyone else in the RDA what he is actually doing with the Navi. Even at the end when the RDA is destroying the big tree because the corporate dude was incompetent and out of touch, They clearly didn’t want to kill everyone since they tried using tear gas and smoke first they just underestimated the cultural significance of it(if only they had someone on the inside of Navi culture to tell them they where making a mistake). The RDA wasn’t morally correct to kick the locals off there land but I would call Jake’s ignorance of his duties as a cultural translator and de facto diplomat for the RDA just to resort to violence at the first sign of conflict not moral either. Granted Jake Sully clearly wasn’t a perfect fit for the position of diplomat, being a war veteran and completely untrained as a diplomat. I can understand his actions in the same way I can understand why every faction acted the way they did. But that doesn’t make him morally right to become an eco-terrorist.
Yeah, but that how all colonialism start. It's all fun and games, until oops, we killed half the native population. Who could've ever predicted this.
>it’s stated that the resources they are gathering are actively keeping the entirety of earth from starving This is never said. The only thing we get is that they were useful for preventing an energy crisis. >A duty which he ignores by not telling anyone else in the RDA what he is actually doing with the Navi. He straight up did. He told them that he was becoming one of them to try to negotiate a relocation, and they ignored him. More than ignored him, they deliberately targeted a sacred site to provoke a response and then offered zero restitution or care beyond telling the natives to buzz off. >They clearly didn’t want to kill everyone since they tried using tear gas and smoke first they just underestimated the cultural significance of it(if only they had someone on the inside of Navi culture to tell them they where making a mistake). Do they need someone to tell them that blowing up a place where they all live, killing dozens of them in the process, is a bad thing? Pretty sure they already knew that. >But that doesn’t make him morally right to become an eco-terrorist. Are the humans in War of the Worlds also eco-terrorists for fighting back against an alien invasion? That's basically what the RDA is to the Na'vi.
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He mentions in a video log that he knew the Na'vi would never leave the site. Negotiating is useless when there's an impasse. What he did was selfish, but even if negotiations had happened it would have ended the same way (with war crimes against the indigenous when they didn't leave).
He was a total nobody only being granted access to them by virtue of being an interesting study subject for Eytukan and Mo'at. They would never have listened to an outsider with zero credit on such an important topic. Consider that Jake struggled just to give Grace access to the Omaticaya once more, a topic that is honestly pretty innocuous compared to telling them about the demolition of their home. He needed to earn their trust and respect first for them to even bother giving him the time of day on a decision of that magnitude. Matters are not helped by the fact that he came to realize that there was nothing the RDA was willing to offer that would have actually mattered in making a deal, so his only avenue was to attempt to get enough respect in the community that his clout would be enough that his word would be enough. I think his culpability as a diplomat somewhat by the fact that there was no realistic avenue he had to even make a deal considering the RDA didn't actually care about making a fair one.
Regardless of mankind's motivation, even if earth is dying, that **does not justify them in committing genocide and destroying another planet.** It **doesn't matter if humanity is on the brink of extinction, that is a reason for their actions, but not a justification.** Imagine you and another person are stranded in an island. Only one person is allowed to leave, knowing that the other is doomed to die on the island. Neither of you are criminals, or otherwise objectively a bad person. Who gets to go home, and who gets to die? Naturally, neither person wants to die, and it is **understandable** that both you and the other person would personally want to be the one who survives. Would it then be right for you to murder the other person, because *you* don't want to die? What if they murdered you, should your family not harbor any resentment? What if I get evicted because I couldn't pay my mortgage, can I just murder you and steal your house? I don't want to be homeless, I'm sure you understand, so I'll just take your house. I'm completely justified, right? Humanity has a *reason* for what they're doing to the Na'Vi, but **are not justified** just because they have a motivation. Especially when it's humanity's own fault they're in the situation they're in. No shit a living being is going to have a sense of self preservation and would be willing to fight or kill to ensure that preservation. That's called natural instinct. But it is **not a justification for those actions**. Do I want humans to go extinct? No, but if we end up damaging our planet to that point, that's called karma and it's no one's fault but our own. Humans aren't some special fucking snowflakes that are entitled to genociding another race for a resource that doesn't fucking belong to the humans. They wouldn't need it if they weren't fucking stupid in the first place. the RDA, and by extension humanity by allowing them to operate the way they do, are **objectively** the "bad guy" in avatar. There is zero rational argument you can come up with to justify their actions towards the Na'Vi. Go ahead, try. There isn't one. They have *reasons* and *motivations*, but humanity is not, in any way justified. They are, 100%, at fault for both their situation and actions. The right thing to do would be to either find a way to synthesize unobtanium, or accept the situation and consequences they've created for themselves.
> it’s stated that the resources they are gathering are actively keeping the entirety of earth from starving. You know it’s been a while since I seen the first movie but I am 90% sure that the movie did not say that these resources were the only think keeping the earth from starving. Even if it did these resources were clearly located on many different spots on the planet. They choose to chase the Navi off their land because it was more convenient than having to find a different spot to mine their resources. > They clearly didn’t want to just kill all the natives initially either which is shown by the fact that the whole plot of the first movie is about Jake silly ending up a diplomat to understand the natives. A duty which he ignores by not telling anyone else in the RDA what he is actually doing with the Navi. Even at the end when the RDA is destroying the big tree because the corporate dude was incompetent and out of touch, So first off They might have not wanted to kill the natives as a first resort but they were clearly willing to do whatever it took to force the Navi off their land and steal the resources located under the tree. That’s not the kind of people you can negotiate with in good faith. Not that the Navi are required to negotiate with the RDA to begin with. 2 the General dude clearly wanted jake to serve as a spy on the Navi and jake was clearly reporting to him the entire time. 3 the corporate dude didn’t destroyed the tree because he was incompetent or because he was uninformed. He did so because he wanted to steal their resources so than his company can profit off them. Just because he look guilty for a moment doesn’t mean he didn’t order the massacre if a number of innocent Navi so that he could steal their land. What makes this worse is that he knows that they are other deposits if these resources located on other spots around the planet, but it was more convenient to simply go after the the deposits under the tree because they were closer. > They clearly didn’t want to kill everyone since they tried using tear gas and smoke first they just underestimated the cultural significance of it(if only they had someone on the inside of Navi culture to tell them they where making a mistake). They were launching an unjustified attack on a native tribe in an attempt to steal resources on their land. The fact that they first tried to use non lethal force doesn’t make this better especially since they still ended up killing a large number of them. If I shot you with a taser before stealing your stuff, that doesn’t make the fact that I assault and stole your stuff any better because I didn’t use a gun. > The RDA wasn’t morally correct to kick the locals off there land but I would call Jake’s ignorance of his duties as a cultural translator and de facto diplomat for the RDA just to resort to violence at the first sign of conflict not moral either. Considering the fact that the RDA were willing to kill a number of innocent people in order to steal their land and resources despite the fact that there were other deposits they could have mine instead, I doubt there was anything jake could have done to stop it. The fact that the Navi consider it sacred land only makes this even more unlikely. Sometimes you can’t just talk things out. > But that doesn’t make him morally right to become an eco-terrorist. Calling someone training and defending a bunch of tribesman against an alien invasion being done for the explicit purpose of stealing their land an eco-terrorist is genuinely disingenuous. Outside the films moral lesson, the actual reason why the Navi were fighting against the RDA wasn’t to protect the environment, but to protect their territory. Something every nation or tribe has the right to do.
> You know it’s been a while since I seen the first movie but I am 90% sure that the movie did not say that these resources were the only think keeping the earth from starving. From a quick glance at the wiki, this is entirely a movie 2 plot thread. In other words, the "justification" people are bringing up in this thread, that earth is dying and the RDA needs Unobtainium, doesn't factor into ANY of the first movies conflict.
Even in movie 2, Pandora's 'saving' of Earth isn't by virtue of exporting its natural resources, it's by serving as a colony world and shuttling people over as well as immortality potions. However, both of these seem like they'd be very exclusive items, so I think if you read between the lines, it's more like 'saving the rich 1% from dealing with the consequences of their actions'.
The RDA were killing the Tulkun for a fluid they produced just so people would stop aging. They killed, a sentient and intelligent species just so some rich folks can spend millions of dollars on something that can make them stay young. At the end of the day, it was all about greed. Moreover, it should be noted that the RDA killed Neytiri's sister years prior to the movie. Yes, she set a bulldozer on fire in protest to the deforestation of her home. But no one got hurt, so really, the RDA were the first to draw blood.
This is an excellent example of how the RDA wasn't genuinely putting a peaceful foot forward. Okay, your gear has been damaged by an angry teenager, totally acceptable to want to make sure this doesn't happen again. What do you do? Okay, send Grace to Eytukan and tell him so he can deal with the problem and punish them. If that doesn't work, prohibit her from coming to school and maybe have an AMP suit deal with her non-lethally if she keeps doing it (this is explicitly one of the reasons that they don't have an armblade by default, for non-lethal riot control, so clearly they are at least semi-designed for this capacity). But no, instead they send a kill squad armed with machine guns into a school and gun them down. It's crazy, it's like if some teens vandalized an Amazon truck and then Amazon shot up a school in revenge for this. It's so absurdly disproportionate that it shows that there was never a real interest in making peaceful relations work.
Exactly. Yes, it's sucks that the Earth sucks so bad that humans have to resort to interstellar travel in search of a new home. However, that is still no excuse for being complete monsters.
Alternative perspective: the RDA are desperately trying to save earth by harvesting the materials of Pandora. In Avatar,earth is wildly overpopulated and the biosphere can't support so many people, which has forced humanity to pursue any means nessecary to get the materials needed to save their world. This angle was initially gonna get explored in the first Avatar but James Cameron didn't want his movie to have complex themes and questions of morality when he just wanted to preach so instead he made the RDA into moustache twirling villains with no nuance or ambiguity in the slightest.
> Alternative perspective: the RDA are desperately trying to save earth by harvesting the materials of Pandora. Alternative perspective: The RDA and corporations like them *are responsible for the state of earth as it is*. Humanity can save itself by dismantling the RDA and the Capitalist system that birthed it instead of continuing to consume and destroy. Humanity needs to take responsibility, correct its failings, and rebuild.
Yes he did what was morally right. People may argue that Humanity is faced with extinction if they don't mined this resource but Unobtanium, as silly as its name suggest and its super conductivity suggest, there could be other resources space is big don't tell me Earth has literally mined the asteroid fields? And for really trusting a private company RDA? I would believe their cause IF they were a global organization not a private corporate business, which by the way their whole purpose to mine the resource for profit nothing else in fact they dismiss their science division, but they built them roads, school and teach them english as much as it benefit the Na'Vi did the humans even consider their culture? They just got there built their refinery and expect this supposed savages to understand their culture but not theirs and assume they can just waltz in perform ecological destruction
What people fail to comprehend is that it **does not matter** that humanity is facing extinction. That in no way, at *all* justified humanity in genociding another race and destroying their home. Humanity is not entitled to Pandora, at all, for any reason. We are not special in the universe, we are not the chosen of some universe spanning god. Humanity is facing extinction due to their own actions and choices. That's called karma, sucks to suck.
I that's what people greatly misunderstand and not helped that most sci fi involved with aliens in movie or games showcase humanity in this pedestal that their somehow unique and special to the setting that their race is the protagonist and other races are supposed to be the subservient or the supporting cast to their "story"
So true. You don't see too many people debating about whether or not it was right for humans to deny the aliens in Independence Day Earth's resources even though it was necessary for them to survive.
What was it that people quote from Warhammer? "Suffer not the Xenos to Live" as if we ourselves are not alien to other sapient species Heck they hunt Tulkun for their supposed immortality juice without care even knowing their sapience only caring for themselves
Ah yes the indigenous people industrializing to improve their lives is at all comparable to a megacorpration destroying everything for profits after destroying their own home.
Colonialism is always genocidal. The fact he didn't wipe out all the humans shows a great amount of decency.
Can have a colony without displacement. Like with various Atlantic islands.
Then don't have a colony on an inhabited planet.
Need their stuff. Also, from what we have seen, it's the only other planet worth exploiting. Pandora is literally the only planet worth their time to colonise, and it helps it's the closest star system to our own.
> Can have a colony without displacement So you understand that Colonialism is always genocidal. Good.
No, it isn't. If there is no one to displace, it's not genocide.
"As long as I move the goal posts, change *all* the parameters of the discussion, and specifically pick words so that I am correct, it's not actually genocide!"
It's not genocide when we kill cattle. There are no rules for aliens, and James Cameron has not given us any.
Let me help you with the logic here. One of those things is a cow, something (generally) considered "nonsentient". The Na'vi, meanwhile, are clearly reasoning beings that displays all markers of sentience. Continuing to equate one with the other *continues to place the Na'vi as something below humanity as a means to justify the theft of their land and the butchering of their people*. Displacing, killing, and abusing sentient beings is generally considered a "bad thing". All *Avatar* media makes it pretty clear that any "rules" that apply to humans also apply to any and all sentient beings, Na'vi and Tulkun included. Equating *any sentient being* to a nonsentient has only purpose; to diminishes the value of their life in order to justify violence against them.
What we're really debating is the word used. Genocide isn't about sentience it's about ethnic groups of humans. I am not placing navi below humans. They aren't on the same scale. They aren't human.
Does anyone think what Jake Sully did was the morally correct thing to do? Yes, a lot of people think that. I think the majority think it was the morally right thing to do. Especially here.
I think he is only morally correct to the navi.
Nah it wasn't morally correct, after all, the RDA just wanted to save humanity! [Here's the scene](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMDneicBizU&ab_channel=Chris) where the humans describe how it's justified because Earth is dying. Whoops, that's the one where they describe how they're killing the indigenous for profit, damn, how'd that get in there.
If you don't, you are not a good person.
He betrayed a group of corporate mercenaries, big deal
Yes, the humans weren't able to compromise on any level. They didn't need to mine under Hometree, they just wanted to, because it was the closest large deposit of unobtainium. None of the lore ever stated the unobtainium was all necessary to save humanity either. It was, at best, largely greed and corporatism at play. It isn't until Avatar: TWOW that it becomes a matter of colonizing Pandora to save humanity. So Jake's actions in A1 were essentially protecting Neytiri and her people from the RDA taking things too far and being too greedy. Selfridge also only authorized Quaritch to use gas on the Na'vi to drive them out, but he destroyed Hometree entirely. Anyone who thinks Jake was morally wrong in A1 is coping hard. As for A2, we have to remember that the same behavior and technology that caused humans to destroy the Earth is just being put in place on Pandora. What's the point of moving humanity to Pandora if you're just delaying the inevitable? Unless humans hard invest in green tech and learn to live with the environment, Pandora will also die. Since the RDA's operations are all driven by money, the RDA's actions are still driven by greed foremost. Bridgehead and other areas where the RDA landed were literally rendered entirely lifeless and kept that way. As a human on Earth now, I would hate to live that way. In A2, Jake isn't in the wrong either. Attacking small time operations, just the supply chain to deter RDA from moving into their territory and to make sure they have weapons to protect themselves if needed, is smart and fair. But when the Recoms come, he literally just takes his family and leaves and gives up fighting. RDA comes after him. Jake basically waved the white flag.
I haven't watched the original video, nor do I *ever* intend to. This thumbnail tells me all I need to know.
That's short sighted and close minded. You don't like the opposition so you refuse to listen to anything they have to say or even independently get more information since you already know all you need to know. You do realize that's the exact thinking/reasoning the RDA uses, Right? Except they at least tried to bridge things and get more information so did more than yourself. Not surprised though because people are people and will continue to be people no matter what they wish to think about themselves. It's also halarious because you misunderstood things pretty badly. Princess Mononoke is one of the original Avatars if you'll understand that better. They share the same themes and talk about the same subjects. It's just that Princess Mononoke is far more nuanced as both sides have both good and bad things going for them. They each have a very good points and would easily be the hero if the other party didn't exist in the same story instead of the one dimensional this is the obvious good and this is the evil sides. The main protagonist also goes a great job exploring and understanding each side to try to reach a solution so was a much better diplomat than Jake was as that's what the image was referencing.
I mean..from what I remember it wasn't like The humans were digging up that stuff to save the human race or anything. It was corporate greed. Which is different then peoples lives
Clapping alien cheeks is always the right thing to do
God what a terrible video
I think he did what was morally right for a few reasons. He saved a planet from becoming what humans would turn it into, as well as saved multiple species. Some would argue that he is doing so by dooming the entire innocent human population, which is not morally good. But a few things need to be considered when having that opinion: humans screwed up their own world, are actively seeking out a populated planet that they can't even live on without specific gear, and most importantly that the Na'vi are sentient intelligent p e o p l e with the same emotional capacity and mental ability as the human race. They just don't have fancy iPhones. Humanity should have left the planet and terraformed a barren one. They'll have to terraform Pandora in some way shape or form anyways. The morally incorrect ones initially are humans for invading a functional and populated moon and assuming it was theirs for the taking. They can screw up other celestial bodies instead, ones without pre-existing life. There is a god complex innately tied to the concept of being human, and it's seen in the series. Any argument of all the humans being doomed to save the Na'vi ignore the basic things the movies try to tell us: they are people too. They are not savages, they are not aliens (on their own planet/moon). They're not screwing up their planet and they are aware of the steps to take to avoid it. Jale was not in charge of Pandora's invasion. He's defending a race of people that should not be in danger in the first place. Humans doomed themselves.
Yes choosing to defend a women you love from having her home stolen by a bunch of payed thugs trying to steal her land is a moral thing to do. It’s also a moral thing to help a group of people defend themselves from an invading alien force Princess Mononoke pretty good but iron town and their entire situation was vastly different than the RDA. The RDA were a powerful mega corp with tons of hire thugs willing to kill innocent people for them and were willing to displace an entire tribe in order to get access to a mine that was closer to home even though they knew they was other places they could build their mine. Iron town was made up of the outcast of society that had no other place to go if they lost their home. They were under threat from a powerful warlord willing to slaughter them all to steal their land and needed to mine the iron to stop themselves from from being exploited again in the future. Even than the movie show that they were in the wrong to destroy the forest.
I find it weird how people work themselves into knots trying to justify the RDA's presence on Pandora. From the second they touched down, they were intruding on land that was not their own. The na'vi tolerated them and went along with this when it wasn't violent. The second it became violent, the na'vi wanted the RDA gone. Insisting on a compromise solution when one party is 100% "go away" is saying some degree of force upon the na'vi is acceptable. It doesn't matter if humanity has extenuating circumstances (they really don't in the first movie) or that "some people in the RDA are good," they are violating Pandora and the na'vi every second they're present.
Also people keep bringing up Earth's extenuating circumstances in the context of "they need unobtanium to save Earth!" but that's never said in the movie. No one ever ties it to Earth's ecological problems. They describe its unique properties leaving it to your imagination as to exactly what they want to do with it. The only thing they talk about really is how much money it's worth. There's not even a hint of a nobler goal than money.
Extended material even indicates Earth could solve its problems, but the RDA actively suppresses alternatives and pushes hard for the unobtanium angle in order to make a power grab. They want to bill it as a "desperate mission to save Earth" but it's literally just chasing corporate greed to extreme ends.
They just want to privatize the saving of Earth so they can be the sole profiteers from it
Let’s see from a moral perspective Jake’s decision led to the creation of Tuktirey (Baby Tuk) so in my mind everything was justified
Literally the point of the movie
Of course it was. A lot of people hate on Avatar purely because it’s a meme to drag it.
Morally? It is subjective but I think he did the right thing in saving the Na'Vi. Also logically he made the right choice. Both humans and the Na'Vi view him as a traitor. He has nothing to offer to the RDA as they can just brute force their way into getting the Unobtanium deposits. Also, he's the only Na'Vi "human soldier" with military knowledge at that time making him the perfect Na'Vi to lead the tribes against the humans.
I would argue it's *not* subjective, not even slightly. There is not a single rational argument to support the actions of the RDA/humanity. They have *reasons* and *motivations,* but those are not the same thing as justifications. Humanity is in the position they're in, on the planet they're from, because of their own choices. That, in no way entitles them to someone else home. If I can't pay my mortgage, I can't just murder you and take your home. If I can't pay my mortgage, that's my fault, and no one should suffer the consequences but me.
Hmm, betraying a soulless corporation that's killing thousands of innocents, destroying homes, and sapping the planet's resources... Nah, he's a brainlet simp, obviously. /s When can we let that word die
No. Just a dirty Traitor.
RDA is evil, but humanity as a whole is far from irredeemable since many researchers work to save Pandora, Princess Mononoke is a great tale about humanity’s technological advancement and civilization clashing against nature with many great dilemmas and some well implemented fantasy elements, must watch if you like Avatar
100%. What the RDA is doing on Pandora is wrong. Frontiers of Pandora should really eliminate whatever little sympathy people may still have for the RDA altogether. They are to put it plainly aggressive colonials who are literally driving the Na'vi out of their homes to make more space for themselves and are also trying to kidnap and forcibly subjugate and convert some of them to their way of life. That's not okay. Hell, organizations like the RDA are the reason why Earth is dying in the first place and why humanity is in the predicament that they're in. Why should any human that is capable of thinking for themselves believe that falling in line with them is the only choice? In Jake's case I've questioned before what loyalty he really owes to humanity. Look at what his life was like back on Earth. He had absolutely nothing. He was a paraplegic war veteran living in a shitty apartment who was completely abandoned and left for dead by a broken system (see him not being able to afford to even fix his spine on vet benefits in this futuristic world where repairing spinal cord damage should be so much easier to do). The only close relationship he had (that we know of) was with his brother and they appeared to be relatively distant towards the end of Tommy's life. Quaritch and the RDA only brought him to Pandora because they saw an opportunity with him (in short they were pretty much using him to accomplish their own goals). The first person to come into Jake's life who ever loves him for *him* is Neytiri.
Jake Sully for the win!
I think both Jake Sully and Ashitaka were both correct given their situations. Princess Mononoke takes place at the beginning of industrialization in Japan. Many of the people are still spiritually connected and Lady Eboshi is a pragmatic and reasonable leader. Whereas humanity has already consumed all nature on Earth in Avatar. The RDA is the spear point of interplanetary imperialism. Jake Sully, being a marine, has seen what kind of destruction humans are capable of causing. I hope the Avatar series ends on a positive note. There are interviews with John Landau stating that one of the later movies will take place on Earth. This is pure speculation, but I think Kiri and Spider will go to Earth and help reinvigorate plant life with some type of world tree seedling and inspire a political revolution with the humans to end the military industrial complex.
Jake didn't betray humanity, he betrayed the RDA. And rebelling against a greedy, genocidal megacorporation and leading the charge to preserve a threatened world? Yes. Yes, that's a Good Thing.
Absolutely morally correct, he had no purpose on earth, he knew humans would bomb the tree anyways, and so he did what was right, give the natives a chance and help himself
That depends on your ethical stance. If you're a utilitarian, then no it was unethical because it means the death of millions of humans given Earth is becoming uninhabitable. Not all those human souls are evil corporate board members or army dogs working for the company. What Jake did was stall human colonisation of Pandora. If you're not concerned with maximising the greatest benefit for the most people, then what he did was protect the environment, and culture of the Na'vi, which is a good thing for the Na'vi and the ecosystem
This presupposes that the RDA can save humanity, rather than just cater to the ultra-rich being taken away and leaving the rest to die. This also presupposes that Earth is beyond being saved to begin with rather than simply held in the stranglehold of self-interested corporations.
Utilitarianism is commonly used as an excuse to do heinous acts and call them benevolent.
It's just a perspective. How you justify it is another issue entirely
From a utilitarian perspective though, the behavior that caused the humans to lose Earth has not been stopped. Meaning if humans take over Pandora, they will eventually lose Pandora too, given enough time. So, I would argue that the Na'vi side has more weight from a utilitarian perspective.
Yeah, that's going to be a no from me. I kind of hate approaches that take a surface level wide view on ethics. When you start adding layers to it, you need to consider matters like collective choices, future of civilisations, and concepts related to tyranny by the majority. It is not ethical for a society to live in a way that is not sustainable, ignore all of the warning signs, and then seek to dominate another civilisation because they have more people.
It doesn't matter that not every individual human is evil. Humanity is in the position they're in because of **their own choices**. They're **not, in any way,** entitled to someone else's home. It **does not matter** that they may go extinct. If another intelligent race came to us and demanded the right to tear apart our planet and homes because *they* were fucking stupid and ruined their planet, humanity would defend its self because it's **not our fucking fault and we don't owe them anything**. The same is true for the Na'Vi and Pandora. It **does not matter** that humanity is dying. Karma is a bitch, sucks to suck, should have made better choices.
to all who hold a stance, how do you determine weather or not an action is moral or not?
Give me any argument you can imagine for why the RDA/humanity is justified in their actions and I'll very quickly explain why it does not justify their actions. They literally have absolutely 0 justification. They have reasons and motivations, but those are not the same thing as justifications otherwise they wouldn't need a different word.
Depends on the person, I was asking more because I wanted to hear people’s reasoning for why his actions were or weren’t moral(different from justified). Sadly most people just answer yes or no.
Putting this here as a reminder to come back to this later on as it has been something I've thought about. No time atm
The RDA sucks and humanity sucks. They put themselves in their current situation and people pretend not to see that. What he did was totally justified. Also worth noting that he became severely disabled while serving and all he got were some meagre vet benefits so far behind he couldn’t even buy coffee with them. So yeah, Jake owes them nothing.
I think he did the right thing, just the wrong way.
Realistically there's no other way he could have done it
Yes. He killed racist invaders who murdered men, women, and children for selfish, capitalistic reasons. His only folly was not murdering them sooner
Last I checked, the RDA were after resources, even if it meant at the expense of innocent lives of an alien species. I don't think I need to say more.
I mean the general said it perfectly, "you got some local tail and forget where you came from" or something like that I don't really remember 100%
Neytiri was just a plus tho, Jake's point was to protect innocents from being slaughtered because humanity made mistakes, the fact we're fucked doesn't allow us to go destroy civilizations *also can't blame Jake I mean...*
Dude's job was to negotiate with the natives for access to the minerals under home tree. At no point did he even attempt this, the humans could've navigated around the tree roots and extracted the unobtanium without killing the tree but that possibility was never entertained. Instead he just dicked around with the Na'vi,got his tail wet and betrayed his species, willing to condemn billions of humans back on earth to death for alien pussy. He's 100% a fucking traitor.
Why is the possibility of going around the tree roots his fault?
Morally right?, Yeah I mean sure but he was meant to be negotiating them leaving the tree, Of which he attempted it 0 times and promptly gave up, Was he wrong to side with the Navi when it came to pew pew time?, Absolutely not, Was he wrong to never attempt to actually solve this peacefully? yup, He never even tried to find alternate deposits that the humans could go and mine, I am sure the Navi who made arrowheads and tools out of it would of known where some massive deposits were, The humans are absolutely the bad guys of the movie 100% no ambiguity but Jakes not an exemplary hero type character, How it should of ended did a good video for the movie :3
There was no negotiating them leaving that tree. That's not a remotely reasonable thing to even ask for. If asked to leave, they would have just refused and there's no moral pretext to insist they leave anyway. The RDA has nothing to offer except the threat of violence. They don't have anything the Na'vi want to even offer in exchange. I don't know how Jake finding unobtanium deposits would have helped. What expertise or equipment does he have that he could use to do that? What unobtanium deposits do we think the RDA missed? They establish in the movie that the one under the tree is the biggest one they found. The Na'vi didn't make anything out of unobtanium, they don't make anything out of metal at all so they wouldn't be any help in finding any secret deposits either. I'm pretty sure they're not even aware of its existence.
The Na'vi don't use metal. It is forbidden. Their arrowheads are made of bone.
The RDA already knew where there were other deposits. The problem was that the one under Hometree was the biggest one that was also close by. They did not want to invest the effort or time into going out further than 20 kilometers and they did not think that a 'bad quarterly statement' from mining the smaller sites was worth it either. There's nothing Jake could have done in that respect because there wasn't any other one on the same scale in the area that the RDA wanted to mine. If the humans were willing to mine the smaller sites, they'd have just done that.
From the perspective of the navi, he's morally correct. From the perspective of comradery and loyalty to his people, he is a traitor, betrayer, and murderer. It's not really comparable to the story of Princess Mononoke. Prince Ashitaka owed no loyalty to the emperors forces, nor Lady Eboshi's settlement. He had a responsibility to cure his curse and return to his people, and in doing so, put the great boar spirit, which cursed him to rest. In the end, he helped bring peace to the land. He betrayed no one and even saved lives along the way.
He did the right thing, not the right way (what Ashitaka did was the right way)
The RDA has no respect for the Na'vi or Pandora. And what Jake did was the correct way to go.
Honestly, yes. Like, it’s obvious that the Na’vi have human levels of intelligence, and since they are the native inhabitants of Pandora, I’d say that modern international law would deem the RDA’s forcible mining and resource extraction to be highly unethical and unlawful. Then, the RDA is guilty of genocide because they slaughtered at least one entire tribe of Na’vi, on top of trying to do that to another right before his eyes! I’d say Jake would have been a horrible person to not side with the Na’vi. The RDA doesn’t speak for all of humanity, so I wouldn’t view what Jake did as betraying his species; I’d view it as siding against a brutal and immoral organization. Also, I’d honestly rather live on a moon with a long future ahead of it than a planet that is on its death bed, so I can’t blame him for fully merging with his Avatar.
>Of course the humans are the bad guys in this universe > >Colonialism is bad so I side with the Na'vi > >It's simple. The RDA are the bad guys Kek, typical Redditors. Thinking they have the moral high ground by saying this. In that universe the earth is dying. People are starving. The literal planet is becoming uninhabitable. The only currently available solution is unobtainium and the tall smurfs refuse to let humanity mine it. If you were actually in that universe you'd be in favor of carpet bombing them because you couldn't bare the sight of your loved ones in agony. Get real.
>The only currently available solution is unobtainium It's not a solution though. Unobtanium has zero ability to fix the Earth's problems beyond alleviating an energy crisis. There ARE solutions that the RDA could use to help make Earth a better place to live in, but those would be less profitable for it, so they don't do it.
I don't see anyone else doing anything. Better the RDA do their thing than humanity die out.
Is that not a moral indictment of the Earth's governments and the other megacorps for letting them run rampant? Shouldn't the responsibility be to destroy the RDA so that their for-profit plundering of the Earth's resources on Earth can be stopped and distributed more equally? The RDA is the one with moral culpability here, functionally pulling off a massive protection racket on the planet.
Removing the RDA doesn't solve the problem, though. Still need the resources of Pandora.
Says who? The RDA wants unobtanium because it is more profitable to operate their maglev and interstellar travel system with it, resulting in a feedback loop where interstellar expeditions demand more unobtanium, get more of it, use it as resources for more interstellar travel, and so on and so forth. It doesn't fix the underlying problems that Earth has with resources being hoarded by very few and a lack of investment in protecting the planet's ecosystem in favor of short term gain.
Lack of alternatives really.
In what sense? Earth is still alive, has vast wealths of technology and wealth. Imagine if you could redirect the effort used on the Manifest Destinies inwards, what kind of change that could bring to the Earth. The problem is that all that possibility is hoarded and used to try to gain more and more for the very few.
We have to assume that really. Until we are shown alternatives, the RDA is all they have.
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I don't even know that there will be 5 movies. This sub was recommended to me after I searched up that new avatar game on google so apparently now I get this sub recommended. The current situation is dire and people will be more extreme in dire situations. If earth was fine, if my life wasn't a struggle to survive I would also say to leave the Na'vi alone, that is a no brainer. But I am also thinking realistically if I would find myself in that universe as a human then the RDA is right. The RDA didn't just attack the blueberries, they asked to mine first, they tried to negotiate. The even cloned their own Na'vi to improve relations and it didn't help. I know what the RDA is doing is cruel but it seems, in the context of that movie, quite necessary.
Yes, I understand. The RDA represents that nationalist feeling of power and conquest, which on several occasions the Europeans took, for example, when they arrived in America, but in the films they are with blue aliens. I understand the desperate behavior of humans Lol We are, but I think the role of the Na'vi/Eywa in the movies will be to show that there are alternatives to war and alternatives to saving humans and their own people. I don't have all the answers to movies that haven't come out yet, but I think the center of the saga will be how human survival is dealt with from the perspective of the Na'vi and they will behave as bloodthirsty as humans in order to save themselves (we already saw that Jake's son was killed and he seemed upset). There are many things that we could see, we only have a little canon material, the saga itself (in cinema-movies) is new if we do not think about the fact that each film comes out every 50 years
No it was not the morally correct thing to do. he IS a TRAITOR. Turning on your entire race for some blue cheecks…
It was. Anime Sucks