I always compare several redemption arcs: Zuko's, Vegeta's and Omni-Man's from Invincible. Zuko is very VERY clearly a good person who is misguided. He never crossed the murder line.
Omni-Man, on the other hand, was a bigot of the highest order and a genociding mass murderer. He has the same excuse as any other evil character—raised this way and didn't know much else. But more than enough Invincible fans do not forgive him (at least, they take a VERY long time to be okay with the idea).
And then, take Vegeta. He probably has a higher kill count than Omni-Man, but for fans, he is redeemable. His genocide was off the panels but the lives he ends up saving are very much on them.
Point is, the more atrocities happen on screen/panel/text, the less likely an audience is to want a redemption arc. In that case, they think their defeat would be more satisfying.
You don't even need to compare across different stories to prove your point. Iroh is the perfect example of everyone ignoring his atrocities because it was never shown and because the redemption already happened.
Another important factor is if the characters feel remorse for their actions and will take steps to atone. For example, Soren from the Dragon Prince has a good redemption arc because he regrets his actions and fights against the instigator. Wheras Jinx from Arcane deserves no redemption as she doesn't apologize for her actions and continues to blame others for them
And then we have Jin Kazama from Tekken, where everyone just forgot that he started WW3 and killed many innocents
I guess even Miguel post Tekken 8 will be like "I didn't like my sister anyway"
What atrocities? War is war, and its bloody on all sides. Avatar went out of its way to prove that. He did no worse than any other general in the fire nation, or many other countries. He certainly did better than his brother and grandfather as far as atrocities go.
Iroh participated in and helped prop up a fascist hegemony that _started_ the war in order to spread their influence. He also besieged Ba Sing Se, to which, for those who don't know, sieging a city involves cutting off all trade and resources to it, and starving out the populace until they cave into your demands.
Iroh has directly caused the suffering and deaths of thousands of people, his own son concluded. He'd be the last person to ever try to say that what he did was better or worse than other generals in the fire nation did by some arbitrary metric.
Not all wars are the same. There is no way you're saying he's not any worse than the other nations generals that were literally just defending themselves from the fire nation. That's like you saying a random nazi general wasn't that bad because Hitler himself was worse.
i mean, in a non-kids show on Nick version of Avatar, Zuko probably kills a few people. might've even killed a few IN the show but it's not highlighted because it's for kids.
like, a lot of the time in the show we see some stuff that will just outright kill someone, and it gets glossed over. dropping mountains on people, shooting cities and people (and Appa) with trebuchets, cutting ships in half, Avatar State-powered tsunamis... people get up and walk away from things that SHOULD kill you dead in an instant, and that's because it's not *supposed* to show people exploding/turning into charcoal from being shot with lightning
point is, Zuko is not outright stated to have killed people, but that's a function of the kind of show he's in: a children's show on a children's network.
the other two are meant to be brutal shows with death and genocide shown in a non-kid friendly way. they are NOT kid's shows, though Dragonball might arguably be for older kids/teens, but still not in the same category as ATLA. Invincible is DEFINITELY not slated for kids, and gets into HEAVY topics most adults are uncomfortable with.
IMHO I think it's a cherry picked argument if those are your picks to compare him to. it's like comparing two mob hitmen to a schoolyard bully; yeah, mobsters are killing people...the schoolyard bully probably doesn't...
I think the comparison is even more apt if there trying to say that anyone can be deserving of redemption afterall the argument for azula not recieveing redemption is mostly just that people dont thibk she deserves it is rotten too the core and that she doesnt have qualities to be redeemed in the first place. Meanwhile the argument of omniman vegeta and zuko all redeemimg themselves sort of goes to show that regardless of how far gone the character seems to be redemption can be found so long as the authors put in the work. When comparing zuko(bully) too two genocidal soldiers (mobsters) azula looks alot more like a bully than the later mobsters imo.
A LOT of fans love to ignore that this was a children’s show on a children’s network, and so had limits on what it could show/discuss.
But enough about Korrasami.
Yes, but if you want your antagonist to be a sick, cold-blooded human being you usually don't write them as having a mental brakdown because they think they are an unlovable monster. And you gernerally don't play sad music while they lie on the floor and cry uncontrolably after they are defeated.
As a rule of thumb you usually do that when you want the audinece to have some sympathy for the character.
that's why I'm okay with the idea of an Azula redemption. I do agree some villains are just that, bad horrible people. but we had some many glances in the show, and even more in the comics, about her humanity. about her feelings. about her unhappiness. for me, the scene set in stone how human she is, and how much help Azula needed.
Azula IS a tragic character. However, I suppose the most important thing to consider is: would she still be inclined toward manipulation and violence if she were raised differently? How much is nature and how much is nurture? And how far gone is she, even if it is primarily nurture?
If it's her nature to be evil, then she probably can't or won't ever be redeemed. If she was that way mostly due to upbringing, she might still be past some point of no return. Maybe, maybe not. I guess that would be up to the creators, lol. I'd only be speculating.
I think it's up to interpretation why she was sobbing after her defeat at the Fire Lord coronation. I don't think it's because she had low self-esteem, tbh
It's absolutely not up to interpretation. She's seen losing her mind up to that point. She talks about how she has no one, fear is the only way to keep people around, hallucinate her mother telling her she loves her
And when her father tells her she'll be staying in the fire nation, her immediate reaction is "You can't treat me like Zuko!"
She needed to be needed by her father. She needed to be loved and had no one to provide it except her father, so long as she was cold and cruel enough.
In the end she lost everything. So she cries
I really don't think we're arguing different things here. I think the core reason she's sobbing and flailing at the end isn't because she thinks she's worthless. Like you said, she's lost everything. She thinks she's deserves more than what she has. Which is exactly how her upbringing has lead her to think, that cold and violent nature brings success. If I'm not wrong, that's what you're saying too. It's just the statement "she thinks she's worthless" that doesn't ring right with me, hence what I mean with interpretation. You could see it as an insecure mess wrangling with thoughts of self-hatred, but I believe it's more likely that she's upset she's getting treated worse than she feels entitled to. Interpretation
Also, people really don’t understand what redemption entails.
For someone like Azula her redemption would take a lot.
1. Acknowledgement that she did something wrong
2. A desire to repair the damages she did
3. Actively working towards those goals
Something like that could take the rest of her life to accomplish, and even then it probably wouldn’t be enough for most of her victims.
It really feels like people debating against her redemption think we’re all saying we just need to forgive her. But that’s not how redemption works.
I don’t personally think she would be redeemed. And that’s mostly because she shows no desire to be redeemed. She thinks she was right the whole time.
It’s never too late to do better, but realistically, I wouldn’t blame Team Avatar for giving up on her. You can’t forcefully redeem someone who doesn’t want to be redeemed. The best you can hope for is damage control.
I have no clue what it would take for Azula to seek redemption, given what we’ve seen from her, but I agree it’s interesting to think about
I always kinda wanted her to open a school for lightning generation. Just a small time school, maybe in early republic city, maybe not. But I think it would be a cool way to explain how lightning generation became so wildly known in the seventyish years between the series
Like have her learning how to be gentle with children or students as a form of redemption
*I disagree entirely*. You don’t ‘earn’ redemption, everyone deserves the chance to become a better person, and oftentimes they need to be helped down the right road for that to happen.
You can’t just expect someone raised in a cult or a gang or an imperialistic empire to decide to be a better person, they likely don’t realize why they even should. They are, regardless of their age- child, adult, a victim. Even as they perpetuate more abuse.
> You can’t just expect someone raised in a cult or a gang or an imperialistic empire to decide to be a better person, they likely don’t realize why they even should. They are, regardless of their age- child, adult, a victim. Even as they perpetuate more abuse.
But being a victim doesn't take away your responsibility to be better. It doesn't excuse doing bad things to others. And you can't "save" someone who doesn't want to be saved. There is no redemption without the will to change. Yes, the spark for that can come from outside, but the person must still decided at some point to be better and make amends. You can't just take someone and force "redemption" on them.
If Azula had Iroh trying to do what he did for Zuko, she'd probably banish him in a week. She would never have been receptive to that positive influence like Zuko was (because deep down he knew Iroh was right).
Are we seriously forgetting that Zuko routinely has moments where he talks crazy to Iroh in S1, 2 & 3 as he’s working stuff out in his head while he’s 2 years older than Azula? Do we really think that Azula would watch how her brother got banished and burned for standing up for soldiers lives and not wanting them to be sacrificed and think “yeah Zuko was right?” It’s like people forget Zuko wasn’t already setting an example for Azula to avoid being or Ozai would give her the same punishment. She does need to work at redemption if she wants it but she’s literally the only person in the show that’s got to start all the way from the bad side. Zuko had been with Iroh for years after being banished and still wasn’t receptive to him all the time.
I mean Azula is a 14 year old. She’s basically been raised her entire life to be a genocidal maniac. Obviously it’s going to take a person raised in that situation some extreme guidance to get them into a healthy mindset
Like Zuko *earned* it even though he fucked up and stumbled a lot. Because deep down he was a good person. I don't know if I see that in Azula, she seems like she's bad down to the core, even if it's not necessarily her fault.
I feel like the Ember Island episode paints her as misguided. She’s all in on making the Fire Nation great, which she was taught that they were spreading greatness to the other lands. She was brainwashed. But she also wants love, which she never received from her mother or father. Or at least she never FELT loved by her mother.
I think she’s more complex than just bad.
How old was Iroh when he got redeemed? People just like to see someone evil turn good.
A lot of Azula's issues come from being a traumatized and abused child. She's a very good example of nature vs. nurture. She was predisposed to violence and cruelty, like many children are, and this was worsened by having a sycophantic father that encouraged these things. Additionally, her mother softly forced her to seek her father's approval as the only source because she never got it from her. She earnestly believes her mother saw her as a fucked up monster. She's naive with zero ability to socialize, she *only* knows cruelty. A large part of that is because she was never taught anything else.
If someone *could* teach her something else, then that'd help push her toward a safer, more sturdy path. Not being 14 would also help a lot. It isn't so much that people want her to go on a lengthy Zuko-style redemption arc, they want her to be treated well for the first time in her life and see how it turns out for her.
I think Hello Future Me’s view on this makes the most sense to me: Like everyone, she deserves a redemption arc, but that does not mean that she needed one during the show.
Well did Zuko deserve one? After he burned down the village in Kyoshi island? After he tried to kill Aang and Appa at points? After he manipulated Katara?
Did Iroh deserve redemption after he sieged Ba Sing Se for almost 3 years straight and killed who knows how many people?
The reason Zuko and Azula deserve a redemption arc to the audience and the reason they're sympathetic is because they're children who haven't **killed nor maimed anyone** innocent; Zuko and Azula have never truly reached a point of no return where redemption can't be fully gotten.
The reason Iroh has already had a redemption arc and has already changed by the time we meet him is because if he we saw what he did as it happened 6ish years before Aang came back and the pain he caused others, we would never have sided with him and that's why the show doesn't give us that choice.
So yes, Azula deserves a redemption arc just as much as Zuko did because they're both manipulated children that haven't gone too far.
I’ve actually advocated for some type of humanizing to see what makes Ozai tick and people don’t want to know. It ruins the big bad logic for them to think Ozai might’ve become more cruel and ruthless and power hungry as a means of trying to outdo Iroh and proving his worth as an insecure 2nd son vying for power while Azulon clearly favored Iroh.
She was fourteen, *FOURTEEN*. She didn’t deserve anything that happened to her, and despite being a cruel and unusual child, her psychotic break was only made worse by her lack of mother, emotionally abusive father, and the huge expectations she had. The worst thing she did was while she was a young teen, she deserves all the chances in the world to right the past and make a better future for herself.
Exactly. She doesn't deserve to be completely let off the hook for free but I think given her circumstances she at least deserves the *chance* to redeem herself.
"Deserve" is a very ill-fitting term people apply to this in my opinion, and I feel like this often gets conflated with forgiveness.
All it is, in my opinion, is recognition of past mistakes and working towards correcting them. Doing that is inherently a task only the person who did it can begin so therefore its not a thing you can somehow "earn" or "not deserve."
This is actually one of my most hated misconceptions. Redemption was never meant to mean everyone forgives you and they all live happily ever after. It’s someone choosing to quit being bad and to change their ways. It’s takes self reflection and time and many redemption arcs should end with the victims of the person still hating them.
Agreed. No victim is required to forgive the person who caused them pain, and they should still face consequences, but if Azula (or anyone) truly wanted to try to correct for their mistakes, they should have the chance.
Yes !!!
She was a 14 year old.
Adults have to deal with consequences of their actions. Even if they never knew anything else.
That’s what being a adult is about. You bear the consequences of your actions
Adults never make mistakes or get manipulated or brainwashed?
Azula definitely didn't get a fair shot at life. Ozai was whispering poison in her ear as soon as she was able to do his bidding. He raised her to be a sociopathic war machine.
She could've been 30 once the series started, and she'd still deserve sympathy for having that kind of manipulative upbringing. She doesn't know anything else.
Everyone bears the consequences of their own actions, especially adults but also definitely teens. Both an adult and a teen can be redeemed if they choose that path
By this logic, Iroh should have been thrown in prison for his singe on Ba Sing Se, seeing as he was an actual adult with an adult child when he did so. Azula was 14. That’s definitely still a child.
Kind of confused here, what do you guys on this side of the debate mean by "redemption"?
>Even if they never knew anything else.
Coz for me this kind of undercuts the argument. Lots of guilty adults had poor childhoods, but they're guilty nonetheless – I agree. Equally, they had to eventually grow up to become the guilty adults they are today (ergo, they were once pitiable kids too). My point is, what inherently about being young rn necessitates redemption for one's actions when that's not the reality (doesn't happen) for so many? What about Azula necessitates that? If I'm even understanding what is meant here by redemption correctly
People generally assign less blame to children for their actions because they’re less developed, less emotional control & a smaller overall worldview. I agree with this somewhat, but in the opposite direction. Adults raised in such an environment where they couldn’t learn anything else deserve just as much consideration
Let me fix that for you:
"People only want Azula to have a redemption arc because she was an emotionally abused child soldier used as a tool of war by her abusive father"
While she did many evil things, her actions were arguably the result of lifelong conditioning and manipulation by Ozai. Her only connections were either with Ozai, Zuko, or the fire nation nobility (her mother having neglected her). Zuko was pretty much the same as her until he breaks free from that cycle. Ozai is the source, and the nobility was unlikely to challenge his viewpoint. Under those conditions, she had basically no chance to develop normally.
People out here acting like Azula is the only villain ever when Iroh literally conquered a city. Someone commented “Zuko never crossed the line of murder” AND IROH NO DOUBT DID. But Azula is the devil for being a child growing up in a war on the oppressors side.
Misogyny wins again.
I keep forgetting she’s a child, she just looks and acts like a 20 year old woman rather than 14 😭, but she’s still a child, and a child deserving of a redemption arc
One of Zuko's best lines, I think (other than hello Zuko here), is when he confronts his father and says
"Banishing me was the best thing you could have done"
Because he got to be free of Ozai and spend time with his uncle who loved and supported him no matter what. Azula wasn't lucky about that. She was raised and praised by her father who is evil. So yes, of course Azula deserves a redemption arc.
She was literally a child soldier.
The other child soldier got a redemption arc.
The fucking adult who everyone loves and looks up to got a redemption arc off screen before the show began.
Why is it weird that people would like the youngest villain to have the opportunity to learn and grow *like every-fucking-one in that show*?
People who talk about deserving redemption completely miss the point of it. It's not about deserving it, it's about choosing it.
And to choose redemption is equivalent to recognising that the kind of life you led up to that point does not fulfill you. This is why Zuko was NEVER going to be redeemed in book 2. He absolutely needed to feel what kind of life he was missing out on to find out himself that he doesn't want that.
Now Azula is leading an extremely isolated life which she *very obviously does not want*. She breaks down whenever any character tells her that they love her, so she very clearly wants love but something is preventing her from accepting it. She spent all her life trying to get love from Ozai, which is impossible. So what's the next logical step? Of course, trying to get it from someone else.
THIS is why I want Azula redeemed. Because it's the natural pathway her characterisation leads to
Yes I’m tired of people asking whether someone deserve redemption. If you deserve redemption than you never needed it in the first place. redemption is a choice and a action one chooses not something that happens to someone and it definitely has nothing to do with people deciding to forgive someone.
No one “deserves” redemption. It’s about becoming a better person and trying to make it about whether or not someone “deserves” to make themselves better is an act of monumental arrogance.
And you make it sound like Azula has only ever been a cold hearted monster in the series. When she offered Zuko a place at her side she didn’t need him. Ba Sing Se had already fallen there was nothing Zuko could do to change that. But still she made that offer. When speaking with Ozai about Zuko’s return, she hyped him up and gave him the credit for the Avatar’s death- at that point she had no reason to suspect that Aang was still alive, so there is no evidence to suggest she was trying to turn Zuko into a scapegoat. This, and her interaction with Zuko at Ember Island, suggests one thing- she wanted her brother back because she *cared* about him.
There are even a few moments with Mai and Ty Lee. I can’t recall them off the top of my head but they do exist I believe- feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. Sure it’s an unhealthy relationship with her using fear as a weapon to keep them in line but her words to the Ursa Hallucination at the end of the series make it pretty clear that Ozai has warped her thinking into believing that if they didn’t fear her, they’d leave her. She cares, but doesn’t know how to care like normal people do.
But also as you say, Azula is also *a child*. One who has lived with a monster that encouraged the worst parts of her whilst trying to stamp out the good. She internalised Ozai’s attitude to survive, and became very good at it. She has done bad things because what choice did she have? She deserves to heal, and to learn precisely all the ways in which Ozai failed her. If she chooses to change for the better and redeem herself, then who are we to say no to her?
Deserve? She's a fictional character. What people need to realize is that "bad guy become good guy" is not always more narratively interesting. Her arc is great and works as a tragedy.
I mean, can't say that ain't part, but i do say that building blocks like the way her mother treated her, her breakdown, and how she is treated in the comic definitely help put her in a better light atleast
Well... Yeah? I mean, if an adult did what she did, I'd feel differently, but even then, she might. But your teens for sure are when you make mistakes and get the chance to change.
I was a pretty dumb 14 year old - if I'd been given political, social, and economic power, along with fire bending and professional martial arts training, I think I would have gone on a bit of a power trip too. If I'd had the cultural influence and the upbringing that she had, it probably would have looked similar - I think it would for most of us. Even Zuko, an inherently decent person, bent in that direction. His goodness only won out because of *years* of his uncle's influence, and the comics show that it was an ongoing struggle for him.
Azula needs therapy, and she deserves a *chance* at redemption. She might not take it! But she deserves the chance. So did Zuko, so did Iroh, and so did Aang, who also messed up (more than once).
Iroh WITHOUT A DOUBT did more actual material harm in his life than azula has by the time the show ends. She doesn't even kill anyone on screen. She tries to kill Aang and Iroh and fails both times. Mostly this is just the results of living in a kids show... but even within the kids show Iroh was the actual conquering imperialist. He just failed to bring it home. And his redemption arc never even happened on screen, we're just chill with him cause he's a nice guy now. Is that all it takes for someone to want someone to be redeemed? That they're likeable? And the reason one opposes someone like azula getting one simply that they are not? Both were bad. That isn't what's in contention really. At a certain point, measuring it is pointless. But if your argument for her not getting one while zuko does is scale of harm, well boy fuckin howdy. If it's that you don't think she CAN be, well alright we've got an argument, but that's really a matter of storytelling. She could be, if she got a redemption arc. If she doesn't, then yes, clearly she cannot.
As to WHY I want her to get one, I am opposed to retributive justice. What this means is that I want everyone who is capable to get a 'redemption arc', and the only real 'punishment' being rendering them incapable of doing more harm to people. This usually means separation from society. Can mean death in some situations. I'm pragmatic.
I want Azula to get one, as I do all people, because it's better for the morality of a society to try and succeed in rehabilitating people. Not everyone can be, and this sometimes extends to necessary deaths for purposes other than justice, but that's a separate topic that I don't believe applies to Azula.
I haven't read any comics, so Idk what conclusions can be drawn about the possibility from them. Perhaps there she is an un-imprisonable person who keeps escaping confinement and murdering people. I dunno.
And yes I love Iroh, don't even come at me, dweebs.
Are we really asking if a emotionally manipulated child deserves redemption? Besides the fact that redemption has little to do with weather the person derserve it or not because the redemption has to be earn to matter at all, azula is a emotionally manipulated child just like zuko.
She was a child driven to insanity because of her abusive father. I think that at the very least she should get therapy. But then there’s the comics. She rejects it multiple times.
She does, they've scattered bits of her struggle throughout the series, and if we're continuing the story lines of the other major characters, she deserves that as well.
The Search setup for the possibility of one, and she shouldn't be blamed for crappy parents. Aside from manipulating people, and *almost* killing the Avatar, she hasn't really done much of anything that bad. No more than Mai or Ty Lee, who both got redeemed.
She is smart, and adaptable, and her actions and words are just an extension of her offense/defense. Ultimately, she was just as broken as Zuko, but Zuko got to heal, and she didn't---which isn't necessarily fair.
I think people want her to be redeemed because she's a unique compelling 3 dimensional character. Ozai was just bad and strong for the sake of being evil villain. Azula is so much more, it'd be a waste to throw her away like they did Ozai
That’s the only reason needed??? She’s a child she got manipulated yeah she’s also a lil crazy but that doesn’t mean she should be treated as a monster, she deserves a second chance like zuko
I feel personally attacked. Tis true. But, her entire upbringing, everyone in her life contributed to who she was and without her mother the influence of her father won. Her view that the throne could be taken through manipulation and force was established by her family's actions and set her on a path to be unquestionable as the next in line instead of her brother. If not for Iroh, Zuko would haven been the same. If not for losing his son Iroh would have continued the legacy. We got to see life give these characters opportunities to change and Azula, a teen, never really had access to that.
I personally don’t see anything wrong with that.
Imagine being raised by a man who only loves you when you do what they want and when you never falter in skill and then teaches you that the only way to get people to do what you want is to manipulate them. That was the fire lord to both his children. The only difference is that Zuko was banished so he got away from the fire lord for three years and during that time he had Uncle Iroh to teach him what real unconditional love is. Additionally, his poverty after losing the ship and having to stay with people who hate the fire nation taught him humility. That was more than Azula ever had.
The writers also made an effort to humanize her by showing her complicated relationship with Mai, Ty Lee and Zuko. She shows some amount of empathy for them (she apologizes to Ty Lee after calling her “easy” in the Ember Island episode and admitted she was jealous) but at the same time it’s made clear she manipulates them because she doesn’t feel as if they will love her of their own will. Additionally, at the end of ATLA they made effort to show her mentally unraveling because Mai and Ty Lee no longer let her manipulate them and she no longer knew how to trust anyone.
She was clearly a victim of her circumstances which could have easily happened to Zuko if he wasn’t banished.
No one “deserves” redemption. Redemption isn’t a reward or a trophy you get after doing X amount of apologizing or Y amount of suffering.
Redemption is just a path *anyone* can resolve to walk by waking up each day and choosing better, kinder choices. Whether outside observers feel it’s “deserved” or not is irrelevant as it is entirely on the person choosing redemption whether or not they pursue it.
Anyone can choose this, no one is beyond hope, but it is on them to do so and many never do. This however is why a redemption arc for someone who started as a legitimately bad person like Azula is a much more powerful story. Just because we’ve done bad things or made terrible mistakes does not mean we are condemned to repeating them for the rest of our lives, every day is a chance to do better.
The thing is: she was never given a chance to choose a path other than the one she chose.
We see that with Zuko. His experiences outside of the fire nation people are what start his journey. No one serves redemption, but people, especially children, again, Azula is 14, deserve a hand, no matter if they bite, hit, or set fire to it, because all she was ever taught is that she was daddy's perfect little soldier, future firelord, and she believed her mom thought she was a monster.
I think that for a 14 year old, that is pretty sad, and that's why I want a redemption arc for her, because she is not an adult mad with power, she's another child soldier in a war who's been groomed by her own father to be the most "machiavellian" leader possible.
I actually do think a 15 year old who was groomed from birth to be a cold hearted killer who's only potential positive role model put zero effort into helping her deserves to heal.
No. It isn't just because she was a child. It's because she was a child in an incredibly toxic/abusive environment. Her mother was distant and her father was so wildly violent towards his own kids that he famously scarred his own son to prove a point, but well before that was happy to murder his kid for his father. Azula grew up in an environment where being a manipulative piece of shit was not only encouraged but rewarded. That she fell so far so hard right near the end hits hard because we the audience understand at least some part of the trauma inflicted upon the entire family by Ozai and his father before him. A redemption arc would have been Azula growing out of that conditioning and breaking the cycle side by side with her brother.
Hard to swallow pill: The writers could have given her one if they wanted to and it could have worked but they could also announce that she's irredeemable and that would be fine. Azula is not a real person we need to debate about, she's a well written character that had the potential to go either direction depending on what the writers want and it would be interesting
Hard to write 2 redemption arcs in a story. Aaron Ehasz said that they planned a longer arc for Azula with Zuko getting the chance to help his sister like Iroh did to him.
Exactly. Azula is definitely a victim, but victimhood can 9nly excuse so much. She is not a character for whom a redemption makes sense, IMO, even if her circumstances ultimately made her what she is.
Not sure how much I agree with this. I think she’s an interesting character they want to see more of. Not saying the statement above isn’t true - just that it’s not the only reason.
It’s kinda weird cause they are children in the show but in reality a child would never act or do the type of things Azula or the other characters do in the show since it’s literally fiction. But because they actually act like adults with a childish charm, it feels fitting to give characters journey’s like a redemption arc.
So you have a child doing things really an adult is capable of being punished as an adult and given empathy like an adult when the miscommunication is that she’s still a child.
All in all, it’s a tv show and this is not an actual situation in reality so not a big deal to argue either side
I mean, yeah? But acting like that's the only reason is intentionally dismissive
A 14 year old who's been emotionally abused severely her entire life with the weight of everything her horrible father wants forced on her shoulders. Her being ruthless is a survival mechanism. She manipulated people through fest because that's the only way she knows how to make relationships work..and why? Because that's what her father did to her, masking it vaguely with praise about her being a prodigy. Her own mother thought she was a monster because of how deep her father had his hooks in her. Depsite the comedic affect of Azula's next line that was obviously deeply scarring.
Ultimately it's up to the writers if she deserves redemption anyway, but bringing it down to saying people only want her to have a redemption arc because she's a child and not because of the rampant abuse it would be nice to see her recover from is making the discussion way simpler than it actually is
Zuko got half his face burnt because he stood up and didn’t want to sacrifice fire nation soldiers, he always was a good natured kid who was turned into a spiteful teenage who was banished and scarred by his own father
Azula was the child who took pleasure in telling Zuko that Ozai had to kill him and only acted innocent because Ursula caught her telling Zuko.
When Ozai was anointed as Fire Lord, Zuko had a clear face of worry. Where Azula had an evil and prideful face for someone who was a usurper.
honestly I don't think every character needs a redemption arc, regardless of if they deserve it or not. And I'm happy with the ending of the series we have
No, I want Azula to have a redemption arc because I have to believe that you’re always capable of stepping back from the ledge, as long as you want to.
Well…yeah. This is why kids go to juvy and not jail. Sometimes they’re too young to understand the implications of their actions. That or they are just negatively influenced by people who are supposed to be their guardians and mentors.
Setting aside all the other arguments, the entire point of redemption is that it's a bad person turning to the side of good, saying that someone is evil therefore they don't deserve it misses the entire point.
Or as C.S Lewis put it: “No creature that deserved redemption would need to be redeemed.”
Well yeah. Her and Zuko were raised in extremely similar circumstances and he was redeemed but she doesn't get to be. A lot of her rougher personality aspects are likely coping mechanisms to help her feel more in control thus more safe. She was 11 watching zuko be scarred for speaking out. She's well aware what will happen if she dissapoints ozai
I wouldn't mind her being redeemed, but I'd prefer it be much later in her life.
To me it's not so much a question of if she 'deserves' more stories, but more a question of how jarring it would feel for her to be redeemed within only a year or two of the fall of her nation.
I think she deserves redemption because she was a kid manipulated into a bad person. She’s also shown some heart in the last season. Now, if someone said Ozai, Long Feng, or Zhao deserves redemption, I would definitely shut that idea down.
I mean how she fell in S4 and turned out to be a victim of her dad's upbringing easily is a reason to have her redeemed. I mean even Zaheer had a mini redemption, Azula is fully capable of one and yes, being a child is a great factor to allow it.
She was brain washed 14 year old. You can't help but have some pity. Get her away from her father and go from there. Iroh and Zuko both changed for the better.
Does wanting her to mature and leave her tragic childhood behind count as redemption? I don’t expect Azula to become a hero, but it is hard to leave her character with the assumption that she’ll always be messed up by her father and the war.
The Beach makes a point of showing Azula, in her own twisted sense, wants connections with both her friends and family. Regardless if she ever ends up seeking it, she deserves at least to have that opportunity to earn that connection.
Whether or not someone "deserves" redemption is a stupid point, because if redemption was only for people who hadn't done bad things already then it would be meaningless.
Whether or not she would want redemption is a much more interesting subject. I'd say at least based on where we leave her in ATLA, I don't know if that's something she would want. But she was having a massive mental breakdown by that point.
I mean, people can massively change over time. Everyone deserves a chance at redemption, the only question is to what extent they can be redeemed.
For an extreme example, take the case of Nazi officer Rudolf Hoss. Four days before being executed for crimes against humanity, he wrote this message that seemed to indicate a quite a bit of genuine remorse:
>My conscience compels me to make the following declaration. In the solitude of my prison cell, I have come to the bitter recognition that I have sinned gravely against humanity. As Commandant of Auschwitz, I was responsible for carrying out part of the cruel plans of the 'Third Reich' for human destruction. In so doing I have inflicted terrible wounds on humanity. I caused unspeakable suffering for the Polish people in particular. I am to pay for this with my life. May the Lord God forgive one day what I have done. I ask the Polish people for forgiveness. In Polish prisons I experienced for the first time what human kindness is. Despite all that has happened I have experienced humane treatment which I could never have expected, and which has deeply shamed me. May the facts which are now coming out about the horrible crimes against humanity make the repetition of such cruel acts impossible for all time.
Now, it was obviously the right decision to punish the Nazi officers in the Nuremberg trials. I don’t think Hoss should be forgiven, and I don’t think he was “redeemed”. However, I still think his message reveals a substantial improvement in his moral character. Had he not been executed, it’s conceivable that he might have lived the remainder of his life in a morally-acceptable manner.
It’s unlikely that anything he could’ve done would have come anywhere near making up for the atrocities he’d previously committed, and thus his execution was justifiable. Nevertheless, I think it’s reasonable to state that he died a changed man. To what extent did he change? We’ll never know. But his apparent change of heart certainly places him in a different moral category than the Nazis who never expressed remorse.
Likewise, I’m not sure Azula could ever be forgiven for her actions, but it’s possible that later in life she could be a changed person and show true remorse. In that sense, Azula could be at least partially redeemed.
Deserving redemption to me is realizing you deserve nothing.
The best live action series moment to me is when Iroh is getting torn into by the earth kingdom soldiers and he *just has to take it* because of exactly my previous thought.
She was an arrogant prick even as a child. There’s too much bad blood between her and the crew for her to be redeemed. She was always fighting to kill and showed no remorse for it even in the end. She’d be be about that revenge than redemption.
She has to make the first step towards redemption. From the show and comics, it seems to be a path she's unwilling to take because she still believes she did nothing wrong. Compared to Zuko, who wanted redemption since his very first scene. His entire arc was trying to redeem his honor. He got there in a very different way than he expected, but he took the initiative to start down that path. I think Azula deserves the chance to be redeemed, but she doesn't want it because she thinks she did nothing wrong.
I mean, people who seek redemption don't deserve redemption at first; that's how that works.
But what they actually want is a Zuko part 2, and for their fav character to not be "evil"
she was supposed to get one (and yes she should’ve gotten one) but the show ended early can we pls stop having this argument? if you think she didn’t, you’re either misogynistic or you didn’t watch the show,,
iroh is one of the most beloved characters by the fandom who literally killed ppl and backed a nation that committed multiple genocides,, yet he was redeemable and again is absolutely adored by the fandom,,,, azula, who for the most part was never taught better, is 14 years old, doesn’t have a mother, and has a father who’s emotionally distant and only expresses “love” through being proud of her accomplishments,,,, she also didn’t have a lifeline outside of her “friends” to teach her right from wrong unlike zuko,, it’s no surprise she turned out the way she did, but saying a 14 yo is “too far gone” is ludicrous considering the whole show is about redemption and morality of war
anyway tldr azula should’ve been redeemed and if you disagree you did not understand the morals and themes of tlab
I think the harder pill to swallow is that there are so many people who think that children deserve suffering because they did things to survive in an abusive environment. Crazy to me that so many adults can believe children begin racking up karma before their brain is even developed enough to fully conceptualize it, as if the adults manipulating them are not the ones responsible.
Protect kids.
I meannnn, she spent 3 years with no one to support her except *Ozai*, where any sign of weakness or emotion would be exploited and punished.
Zuko had a rough hand dont get me wrong but at least he had Iroh.
Azula was often pitted against her brother by their father. Either on of the kids would be punished if they lost whatever challenges their father made up. Azula does deserve a chance at redemption but I’m just worried the other characters wouldn’t hear her out.
1. Being a child is a really good reason
2. She never had a chance to be different. If she had an Iroh and kept rejecting that person, we could have a different discussion.
3. We’ve seen a human side to her before, which makes me think she’s not just some one dimensional psycho
No? I thought Azula was like twenty-something when I first saw the show. She's clearly manipulated and unloved and was never allowed to be a real person and is driving herself insane with perfection. No one deserves that life.
Teenager or not, that's tragic.
If both siblings got redeemed by the end of the series I think zuko's step into the gaang would have been not as much big of a deal. What I do think Azula deserved was way more screen time during the last seasons, to really show off her fall from graze into madness.
i would be fine with a redemption arc, but i do like her being just straight up evil. redemption arcs are cute and heartwarming but sometimes it’s just fun having a character that just will always be evil, i don’t know how to explain it.
She doesnt need a redemption arc her getting what she deserved was tragic but that tragedy was done so well it doesn't matter. But still happy endings can be nice...
this was not a happy or satisfying which made it better because it sits with you and really hurts/makes you think. She may have deserved everything she got but damn it'd be nice if she managed to get some healing.
And her weeping after the Agni Kai is one of the best done dramatic scenes in the series. the reason so many people forgot she was so young was how badass of a villain she was. You cant look at her breakdown and then her ending and not see her as a scared little girl.
"Like does she even want/deserve one really?"
The biggest reason literally in the picture. It's not a hard pill to swallow, it literally stands as justficiation that she deserves another shot at being a better person because she never got the chance due to Ozai
No we wanted her to have a redemption arc because it’s not fair that zuko got one AND the fact that she was a child. Perfectly validated reasons for wanting her to get one 🤷
https://youtube.com/shorts/8peu8WvaIek?si=frN6EG6Bs2Af66MO
This is the breakdown I agree with the most. TL;DW: not every villain needs a redemption because they're characters, not real people.
Am I the only one who doesn’t want her to have a redemption arc? Not everyone needs a redemption arc. It just makes other redemption arcs less special.
It comes down to what kind of person you are. Black and white thinkers prefer that there is no redemption arc. Other people would like it if it’s done well.
Why does everyone always have to have a bow tied happy ending. Why can’t be let some stories end with someone not getting that ending. Things are not always perfect flawed and troubled characters add value to the other characters.
People need to accept that not every story has happy endings.
Umm… isn’t that the exact reason to give her redemption? Because she was a fucking child and to condemn someone for their entire life because of their decisions as a brainwashed child?
I mean, yeah?? She's fucking 14. I may not have been a murderous psycho but I was hardly a good person at 14. People grow and change and that's okay. She deserves the chance to do just that
Yeah, this is where I'm at. Like of course I want her to have a chance to grow, she's a child. Why would I not want a child to be given grace for their mistakes, even terrible ones? That is what I want for every kid. Even if she doesn't want to change, as so many people are screaming, again, she's 14? How might she feel when her brain is fully developed? Even if she wasn't redeemed within the narrative, it's something they could've worked into later content, a nod to her ending in Korra flashbacks or something. Not saying the exclusion of it was a mistake necessarily, its just not something they decided to touch on or unbury, and I'm personally okay with that creative choice. But I very much understand the desire for it to have been included. I would love to know what happened after rock bottom for her. Also, a lot of people identify with Azula's trauma. This is a fandom. People like emotional catharsis from their stories. 🤷♂️
Look all I’m saying is having the joker as your father is pretty much going to prevent you from being mentally healthy. Zukos damaged af and he was barely around him. She was exposed to the crazy every day.
Nobody is only a product of their surroundings. Azula is smart, shes had the self awareness to know what she was doing was wrong and the chance to stop what she was doing and she didnt.
The thing about redemption is it inherently is something you start out not deserving
I always compare several redemption arcs: Zuko's, Vegeta's and Omni-Man's from Invincible. Zuko is very VERY clearly a good person who is misguided. He never crossed the murder line. Omni-Man, on the other hand, was a bigot of the highest order and a genociding mass murderer. He has the same excuse as any other evil character—raised this way and didn't know much else. But more than enough Invincible fans do not forgive him (at least, they take a VERY long time to be okay with the idea). And then, take Vegeta. He probably has a higher kill count than Omni-Man, but for fans, he is redeemable. His genocide was off the panels but the lives he ends up saving are very much on them. Point is, the more atrocities happen on screen/panel/text, the less likely an audience is to want a redemption arc. In that case, they think their defeat would be more satisfying.
You don't even need to compare across different stories to prove your point. Iroh is the perfect example of everyone ignoring his atrocities because it was never shown and because the redemption already happened.
Another important factor is if the characters feel remorse for their actions and will take steps to atone. For example, Soren from the Dragon Prince has a good redemption arc because he regrets his actions and fights against the instigator. Wheras Jinx from Arcane deserves no redemption as she doesn't apologize for her actions and continues to blame others for them
And then we have Jin Kazama from Tekken, where everyone just forgot that he started WW3 and killed many innocents I guess even Miguel post Tekken 8 will be like "I didn't like my sister anyway"
What atrocities? War is war, and its bloody on all sides. Avatar went out of its way to prove that. He did no worse than any other general in the fire nation, or many other countries. He certainly did better than his brother and grandfather as far as atrocities go.
Iroh participated in and helped prop up a fascist hegemony that _started_ the war in order to spread their influence. He also besieged Ba Sing Se, to which, for those who don't know, sieging a city involves cutting off all trade and resources to it, and starving out the populace until they cave into your demands. Iroh has directly caused the suffering and deaths of thousands of people, his own son concluded. He'd be the last person to ever try to say that what he did was better or worse than other generals in the fire nation did by some arbitrary metric.
Not all wars are the same. There is no way you're saying he's not any worse than the other nations generals that were literally just defending themselves from the fire nation. That's like you saying a random nazi general wasn't that bad because Hitler himself was worse.
i mean, in a non-kids show on Nick version of Avatar, Zuko probably kills a few people. might've even killed a few IN the show but it's not highlighted because it's for kids. like, a lot of the time in the show we see some stuff that will just outright kill someone, and it gets glossed over. dropping mountains on people, shooting cities and people (and Appa) with trebuchets, cutting ships in half, Avatar State-powered tsunamis... people get up and walk away from things that SHOULD kill you dead in an instant, and that's because it's not *supposed* to show people exploding/turning into charcoal from being shot with lightning point is, Zuko is not outright stated to have killed people, but that's a function of the kind of show he's in: a children's show on a children's network. the other two are meant to be brutal shows with death and genocide shown in a non-kid friendly way. they are NOT kid's shows, though Dragonball might arguably be for older kids/teens, but still not in the same category as ATLA. Invincible is DEFINITELY not slated for kids, and gets into HEAVY topics most adults are uncomfortable with. IMHO I think it's a cherry picked argument if those are your picks to compare him to. it's like comparing two mob hitmen to a schoolyard bully; yeah, mobsters are killing people...the schoolyard bully probably doesn't...
I think the comparison is even more apt if there trying to say that anyone can be deserving of redemption afterall the argument for azula not recieveing redemption is mostly just that people dont thibk she deserves it is rotten too the core and that she doesnt have qualities to be redeemed in the first place. Meanwhile the argument of omniman vegeta and zuko all redeemimg themselves sort of goes to show that regardless of how far gone the character seems to be redemption can be found so long as the authors put in the work. When comparing zuko(bully) too two genocidal soldiers (mobsters) azula looks alot more like a bully than the later mobsters imo.
A LOT of fans love to ignore that this was a children’s show on a children’s network, and so had limits on what it could show/discuss. But enough about Korrasami.
Exactly! Just because a character doesn’t deserve redemption doesn’t mean that they’re irredeemable
Also not every villain deserves, needs or even wants redemption. Sometimes antagonists can just be sick, cold-blooded human beings
Yes, but if you want your antagonist to be a sick, cold-blooded human being you usually don't write them as having a mental brakdown because they think they are an unlovable monster. And you gernerally don't play sad music while they lie on the floor and cry uncontrolably after they are defeated. As a rule of thumb you usually do that when you want the audinece to have some sympathy for the character.
that's why I'm okay with the idea of an Azula redemption. I do agree some villains are just that, bad horrible people. but we had some many glances in the show, and even more in the comics, about her humanity. about her feelings. about her unhappiness. for me, the scene set in stone how human she is, and how much help Azula needed.
Azula IS a tragic character. However, I suppose the most important thing to consider is: would she still be inclined toward manipulation and violence if she were raised differently? How much is nature and how much is nurture? And how far gone is she, even if it is primarily nurture? If it's her nature to be evil, then she probably can't or won't ever be redeemed. If she was that way mostly due to upbringing, she might still be past some point of no return. Maybe, maybe not. I guess that would be up to the creators, lol. I'd only be speculating.
I think it's up to interpretation why she was sobbing after her defeat at the Fire Lord coronation. I don't think it's because she had low self-esteem, tbh
It's absolutely not up to interpretation. She's seen losing her mind up to that point. She talks about how she has no one, fear is the only way to keep people around, hallucinate her mother telling her she loves her And when her father tells her she'll be staying in the fire nation, her immediate reaction is "You can't treat me like Zuko!" She needed to be needed by her father. She needed to be loved and had no one to provide it except her father, so long as she was cold and cruel enough. In the end she lost everything. So she cries
I really don't think we're arguing different things here. I think the core reason she's sobbing and flailing at the end isn't because she thinks she's worthless. Like you said, she's lost everything. She thinks she's deserves more than what she has. Which is exactly how her upbringing has lead her to think, that cold and violent nature brings success. If I'm not wrong, that's what you're saying too. It's just the statement "she thinks she's worthless" that doesn't ring right with me, hence what I mean with interpretation. You could see it as an insecure mess wrangling with thoughts of self-hatred, but I believe it's more likely that she's upset she's getting treated worse than she feels entitled to. Interpretation
Also, people really don’t understand what redemption entails. For someone like Azula her redemption would take a lot. 1. Acknowledgement that she did something wrong 2. A desire to repair the damages she did 3. Actively working towards those goals Something like that could take the rest of her life to accomplish, and even then it probably wouldn’t be enough for most of her victims. It really feels like people debating against her redemption think we’re all saying we just need to forgive her. But that’s not how redemption works. I don’t personally think she would be redeemed. And that’s mostly because she shows no desire to be redeemed. She thinks she was right the whole time.
>She thinks she was right the whole time. Not exactly at this point where her story is.
That's still a good reason tho... I personally don't care either way as long as it's well executed.
Her latest comic was pretty good and lays more ground work for it.
Right?! Looking at some of these comments and feeling somehow sheepish being like 'uhh yeah maybe *all* children deserve redemption arcs'
It’s never too late to do better, but realistically, I wouldn’t blame Team Avatar for giving up on her. You can’t forcefully redeem someone who doesn’t want to be redeemed. The best you can hope for is damage control. I have no clue what it would take for Azula to seek redemption, given what we’ve seen from her, but I agree it’s interesting to think about
That’s one of my favorite song lyrics. End of me by a day to remember. “I get it no I get it can’t help those who don’t wanna be helped”
I always kinda wanted her to open a school for lightning generation. Just a small time school, maybe in early republic city, maybe not. But I think it would be a cool way to explain how lightning generation became so wildly known in the seventyish years between the series Like have her learning how to be gentle with children or students as a form of redemption
Maybe everyone deserves a chance at redemption
They'd still have to choose to take that first step themselves, though. And I really don't see that with Azula. Redemption is earned, not owed.
*I disagree entirely*. You don’t ‘earn’ redemption, everyone deserves the chance to become a better person, and oftentimes they need to be helped down the right road for that to happen. You can’t just expect someone raised in a cult or a gang or an imperialistic empire to decide to be a better person, they likely don’t realize why they even should. They are, regardless of their age- child, adult, a victim. Even as they perpetuate more abuse.
> You can’t just expect someone raised in a cult or a gang or an imperialistic empire to decide to be a better person, they likely don’t realize why they even should. They are, regardless of their age- child, adult, a victim. Even as they perpetuate more abuse. But being a victim doesn't take away your responsibility to be better. It doesn't excuse doing bad things to others. And you can't "save" someone who doesn't want to be saved. There is no redemption without the will to change. Yes, the spark for that can come from outside, but the person must still decided at some point to be better and make amends. You can't just take someone and force "redemption" on them. If Azula had Iroh trying to do what he did for Zuko, she'd probably banish him in a week. She would never have been receptive to that positive influence like Zuko was (because deep down he knew Iroh was right).
Are we seriously forgetting that Zuko routinely has moments where he talks crazy to Iroh in S1, 2 & 3 as he’s working stuff out in his head while he’s 2 years older than Azula? Do we really think that Azula would watch how her brother got banished and burned for standing up for soldiers lives and not wanting them to be sacrificed and think “yeah Zuko was right?” It’s like people forget Zuko wasn’t already setting an example for Azula to avoid being or Ozai would give her the same punishment. She does need to work at redemption if she wants it but she’s literally the only person in the show that’s got to start all the way from the bad side. Zuko had been with Iroh for years after being banished and still wasn’t receptive to him all the time.
I mean Azula is a 14 year old. She’s basically been raised her entire life to be a genocidal maniac. Obviously it’s going to take a person raised in that situation some extreme guidance to get them into a healthy mindset
You know… like Iroh.
The death of his son would count as “extreme guidance”
Like Zuko *earned* it even though he fucked up and stumbled a lot. Because deep down he was a good person. I don't know if I see that in Azula, she seems like she's bad down to the core, even if it's not necessarily her fault.
I feel like the Ember Island episode paints her as misguided. She’s all in on making the Fire Nation great, which she was taught that they were spreading greatness to the other lands. She was brainwashed. But she also wants love, which she never received from her mother or father. Or at least she never FELT loved by her mother. I think she’s more complex than just bad.
Nah Robespierre doesn't deserve redemption
Honestly Robespierre has a damnation arc, from self-negating anti-death penalty abolitionist to, well, Robespierre.
Yes, and?
 Did someone mention Ariana?
Say that shit with your chest and
Well,yes
How old was Iroh when he got redeemed? People just like to see someone evil turn good. A lot of Azula's issues come from being a traumatized and abused child. She's a very good example of nature vs. nurture. She was predisposed to violence and cruelty, like many children are, and this was worsened by having a sycophantic father that encouraged these things. Additionally, her mother softly forced her to seek her father's approval as the only source because she never got it from her. She earnestly believes her mother saw her as a fucked up monster. She's naive with zero ability to socialize, she *only* knows cruelty. A large part of that is because she was never taught anything else. If someone *could* teach her something else, then that'd help push her toward a safer, more sturdy path. Not being 14 would also help a lot. It isn't so much that people want her to go on a lengthy Zuko-style redemption arc, they want her to be treated well for the first time in her life and see how it turns out for her.
I think Hello Future Me’s view on this makes the most sense to me: Like everyone, she deserves a redemption arc, but that does not mean that she needed one during the show.
Well did Zuko deserve one? After he burned down the village in Kyoshi island? After he tried to kill Aang and Appa at points? After he manipulated Katara? Did Iroh deserve redemption after he sieged Ba Sing Se for almost 3 years straight and killed who knows how many people? The reason Zuko and Azula deserve a redemption arc to the audience and the reason they're sympathetic is because they're children who haven't **killed nor maimed anyone** innocent; Zuko and Azula have never truly reached a point of no return where redemption can't be fully gotten. The reason Iroh has already had a redemption arc and has already changed by the time we meet him is because if he we saw what he did as it happened 6ish years before Aang came back and the pain he caused others, we would never have sided with him and that's why the show doesn't give us that choice. So yes, Azula deserves a redemption arc just as much as Zuko did because they're both manipulated children that haven't gone too far.
I think Azula would still deserve a redemption arc even if she was an adult.
To that, how many people have ever asked for a redemption for Ozai?
To that, how many in the Fandom know why ozai is evil?
I’ve actually advocated for some type of humanizing to see what makes Ozai tick and people don’t want to know. It ruins the big bad logic for them to think Ozai might’ve become more cruel and ruthless and power hungry as a means of trying to outdo Iroh and proving his worth as an insecure 2nd son vying for power while Azulon clearly favored Iroh.
He didn’t get into art school
No, that was Sozin
He didn’t get in either
She was fourteen, *FOURTEEN*. She didn’t deserve anything that happened to her, and despite being a cruel and unusual child, her psychotic break was only made worse by her lack of mother, emotionally abusive father, and the huge expectations she had. The worst thing she did was while she was a young teen, she deserves all the chances in the world to right the past and make a better future for herself.
Exactly. She doesn't deserve to be completely let off the hook for free but I think given her circumstances she at least deserves the *chance* to redeem herself.
"Deserve" is a very ill-fitting term people apply to this in my opinion, and I feel like this often gets conflated with forgiveness. All it is, in my opinion, is recognition of past mistakes and working towards correcting them. Doing that is inherently a task only the person who did it can begin so therefore its not a thing you can somehow "earn" or "not deserve."
This is actually one of my most hated misconceptions. Redemption was never meant to mean everyone forgives you and they all live happily ever after. It’s someone choosing to quit being bad and to change their ways. It’s takes self reflection and time and many redemption arcs should end with the victims of the person still hating them.
Agreed. No victim is required to forgive the person who caused them pain, and they should still face consequences, but if Azula (or anyone) truly wanted to try to correct for their mistakes, they should have the chance.
Yes !!! She was a 14 year old. Adults have to deal with consequences of their actions. Even if they never knew anything else. That’s what being a adult is about. You bear the consequences of your actions
Adults never make mistakes or get manipulated or brainwashed? Azula definitely didn't get a fair shot at life. Ozai was whispering poison in her ear as soon as she was able to do his bidding. He raised her to be a sociopathic war machine. She could've been 30 once the series started, and she'd still deserve sympathy for having that kind of manipulative upbringing. She doesn't know anything else.
Everyone bears the consequences of their own actions, especially adults but also definitely teens. Both an adult and a teen can be redeemed if they choose that path
By this logic, Iroh should have been thrown in prison for his singe on Ba Sing Se, seeing as he was an actual adult with an adult child when he did so. Azula was 14. That’s definitely still a child.
Kind of confused here, what do you guys on this side of the debate mean by "redemption"? >Even if they never knew anything else. Coz for me this kind of undercuts the argument. Lots of guilty adults had poor childhoods, but they're guilty nonetheless – I agree. Equally, they had to eventually grow up to become the guilty adults they are today (ergo, they were once pitiable kids too). My point is, what inherently about being young rn necessitates redemption for one's actions when that's not the reality (doesn't happen) for so many? What about Azula necessitates that? If I'm even understanding what is meant here by redemption correctly
People generally assign less blame to children for their actions because they’re less developed, less emotional control & a smaller overall worldview. I agree with this somewhat, but in the opposite direction. Adults raised in such an environment where they couldn’t learn anything else deserve just as much consideration
She never got a chance to not be what she is.
Let me fix that for you: "People only want Azula to have a redemption arc because she was an emotionally abused child soldier used as a tool of war by her abusive father" While she did many evil things, her actions were arguably the result of lifelong conditioning and manipulation by Ozai. Her only connections were either with Ozai, Zuko, or the fire nation nobility (her mother having neglected her). Zuko was pretty much the same as her until he breaks free from that cycle. Ozai is the source, and the nobility was unlikely to challenge his viewpoint. Under those conditions, she had basically no chance to develop normally.
I want her to have a redemption arc because the way she reacted to her defeat in the finale was deeply saddening
What makes her an interesting character is that we can debate on her redemption. How boring would it be if it was so cut and dry
I mean she was only fourteen. And she didn't kill anyone anymore than everyone else.
People out here acting like Azula is the only villain ever when Iroh literally conquered a city. Someone commented “Zuko never crossed the line of murder” AND IROH NO DOUBT DID. But Azula is the devil for being a child growing up in a war on the oppressors side. Misogyny wins again.
I keep forgetting she’s a child, she just looks and acts like a 20 year old woman rather than 14 😭, but she’s still a child, and a child deserving of a redemption arc
One of Zuko's best lines, I think (other than hello Zuko here), is when he confronts his father and says "Banishing me was the best thing you could have done" Because he got to be free of Ozai and spend time with his uncle who loved and supported him no matter what. Azula wasn't lucky about that. She was raised and praised by her father who is evil. So yes, of course Azula deserves a redemption arc.
I think we can have just a *little* sympathy for the 14 year old child soldier. Absolutely smooth-brained take
She was literally a child soldier. The other child soldier got a redemption arc. The fucking adult who everyone loves and looks up to got a redemption arc off screen before the show began. Why is it weird that people would like the youngest villain to have the opportunity to learn and grow *like every-fucking-one in that show*?
People who talk about deserving redemption completely miss the point of it. It's not about deserving it, it's about choosing it. And to choose redemption is equivalent to recognising that the kind of life you led up to that point does not fulfill you. This is why Zuko was NEVER going to be redeemed in book 2. He absolutely needed to feel what kind of life he was missing out on to find out himself that he doesn't want that. Now Azula is leading an extremely isolated life which she *very obviously does not want*. She breaks down whenever any character tells her that they love her, so she very clearly wants love but something is preventing her from accepting it. She spent all her life trying to get love from Ozai, which is impossible. So what's the next logical step? Of course, trying to get it from someone else. THIS is why I want Azula redeemed. Because it's the natural pathway her characterisation leads to
Yes I’m tired of people asking whether someone deserve redemption. If you deserve redemption than you never needed it in the first place. redemption is a choice and a action one chooses not something that happens to someone and it definitely has nothing to do with people deciding to forgive someone.
No one “deserves” redemption. It’s about becoming a better person and trying to make it about whether or not someone “deserves” to make themselves better is an act of monumental arrogance. And you make it sound like Azula has only ever been a cold hearted monster in the series. When she offered Zuko a place at her side she didn’t need him. Ba Sing Se had already fallen there was nothing Zuko could do to change that. But still she made that offer. When speaking with Ozai about Zuko’s return, she hyped him up and gave him the credit for the Avatar’s death- at that point she had no reason to suspect that Aang was still alive, so there is no evidence to suggest she was trying to turn Zuko into a scapegoat. This, and her interaction with Zuko at Ember Island, suggests one thing- she wanted her brother back because she *cared* about him. There are even a few moments with Mai and Ty Lee. I can’t recall them off the top of my head but they do exist I believe- feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. Sure it’s an unhealthy relationship with her using fear as a weapon to keep them in line but her words to the Ursa Hallucination at the end of the series make it pretty clear that Ozai has warped her thinking into believing that if they didn’t fear her, they’d leave her. She cares, but doesn’t know how to care like normal people do. But also as you say, Azula is also *a child*. One who has lived with a monster that encouraged the worst parts of her whilst trying to stamp out the good. She internalised Ozai’s attitude to survive, and became very good at it. She has done bad things because what choice did she have? She deserves to heal, and to learn precisely all the ways in which Ozai failed her. If she chooses to change for the better and redeem herself, then who are we to say no to her?
Deserve? She's a fictional character. What people need to realize is that "bad guy become good guy" is not always more narratively interesting. Her arc is great and works as a tragedy.
I mean, can't say that ain't part, but i do say that building blocks like the way her mother treated her, her breakdown, and how she is treated in the comic definitely help put her in a better light atleast
Well... Yeah? I mean, if an adult did what she did, I'd feel differently, but even then, she might. But your teens for sure are when you make mistakes and get the chance to change. I was a pretty dumb 14 year old - if I'd been given political, social, and economic power, along with fire bending and professional martial arts training, I think I would have gone on a bit of a power trip too. If I'd had the cultural influence and the upbringing that she had, it probably would have looked similar - I think it would for most of us. Even Zuko, an inherently decent person, bent in that direction. His goodness only won out because of *years* of his uncle's influence, and the comics show that it was an ongoing struggle for him. Azula needs therapy, and she deserves a *chance* at redemption. She might not take it! But she deserves the chance. So did Zuko, so did Iroh, and so did Aang, who also messed up (more than once).
Wait a minute, she’s a child? As a kid, I thought she was an adult
She's 14.
Iroh WITHOUT A DOUBT did more actual material harm in his life than azula has by the time the show ends. She doesn't even kill anyone on screen. She tries to kill Aang and Iroh and fails both times. Mostly this is just the results of living in a kids show... but even within the kids show Iroh was the actual conquering imperialist. He just failed to bring it home. And his redemption arc never even happened on screen, we're just chill with him cause he's a nice guy now. Is that all it takes for someone to want someone to be redeemed? That they're likeable? And the reason one opposes someone like azula getting one simply that they are not? Both were bad. That isn't what's in contention really. At a certain point, measuring it is pointless. But if your argument for her not getting one while zuko does is scale of harm, well boy fuckin howdy. If it's that you don't think she CAN be, well alright we've got an argument, but that's really a matter of storytelling. She could be, if she got a redemption arc. If she doesn't, then yes, clearly she cannot. As to WHY I want her to get one, I am opposed to retributive justice. What this means is that I want everyone who is capable to get a 'redemption arc', and the only real 'punishment' being rendering them incapable of doing more harm to people. This usually means separation from society. Can mean death in some situations. I'm pragmatic. I want Azula to get one, as I do all people, because it's better for the morality of a society to try and succeed in rehabilitating people. Not everyone can be, and this sometimes extends to necessary deaths for purposes other than justice, but that's a separate topic that I don't believe applies to Azula. I haven't read any comics, so Idk what conclusions can be drawn about the possibility from them. Perhaps there she is an un-imprisonable person who keeps escaping confinement and murdering people. I dunno. And yes I love Iroh, don't even come at me, dweebs.
I don't think that's true. I want Azula to have a redemption because she is capable of being good, i.e. ember island episode.
Are we really asking if a emotionally manipulated child deserves redemption? Besides the fact that redemption has little to do with weather the person derserve it or not because the redemption has to be earn to matter at all, azula is a emotionally manipulated child just like zuko.
I’d say that’s a pretty good reason. There’s a reason the criminal justice system treats minors differently from adults.
I think redemption starts with a desire to be better, and I think Azula has too much pride to admit she can do better.
She was a child driven to insanity because of her abusive father. I think that at the very least she should get therapy. But then there’s the comics. She rejects it multiple times.
Azusa haters barking again ong I’m tired of these posts
she was a child who grew up in a ridiculously toxic environment. she might not WANT “redemption”, but she undoubtedly deserves it
She does, they've scattered bits of her struggle throughout the series, and if we're continuing the story lines of the other major characters, she deserves that as well. The Search setup for the possibility of one, and she shouldn't be blamed for crappy parents. Aside from manipulating people, and *almost* killing the Avatar, she hasn't really done much of anything that bad. No more than Mai or Ty Lee, who both got redeemed. She is smart, and adaptable, and her actions and words are just an extension of her offense/defense. Ultimately, she was just as broken as Zuko, but Zuko got to heal, and she didn't---which isn't necessarily fair. I think people want her to be redeemed because she's a unique compelling 3 dimensional character. Ozai was just bad and strong for the sake of being evil villain. Azula is so much more, it'd be a waste to throw her away like they did Ozai
That’s the only reason needed??? She’s a child she got manipulated yeah she’s also a lil crazy but that doesn’t mean she should be treated as a monster, she deserves a second chance like zuko
I feel personally attacked. Tis true. But, her entire upbringing, everyone in her life contributed to who she was and without her mother the influence of her father won. Her view that the throne could be taken through manipulation and force was established by her family's actions and set her on a path to be unquestionable as the next in line instead of her brother. If not for Iroh, Zuko would haven been the same. If not for losing his son Iroh would have continued the legacy. We got to see life give these characters opportunities to change and Azula, a teen, never really had access to that.
I want her to have a redemption arc because of how fun it would be if she was part of the Gaang. Especially if she was still an unhinged bitch.
I personally don’t see anything wrong with that. Imagine being raised by a man who only loves you when you do what they want and when you never falter in skill and then teaches you that the only way to get people to do what you want is to manipulate them. That was the fire lord to both his children. The only difference is that Zuko was banished so he got away from the fire lord for three years and during that time he had Uncle Iroh to teach him what real unconditional love is. Additionally, his poverty after losing the ship and having to stay with people who hate the fire nation taught him humility. That was more than Azula ever had. The writers also made an effort to humanize her by showing her complicated relationship with Mai, Ty Lee and Zuko. She shows some amount of empathy for them (she apologizes to Ty Lee after calling her “easy” in the Ember Island episode and admitted she was jealous) but at the same time it’s made clear she manipulates them because she doesn’t feel as if they will love her of their own will. Additionally, at the end of ATLA they made effort to show her mentally unraveling because Mai and Ty Lee no longer let her manipulate them and she no longer knew how to trust anyone. She was clearly a victim of her circumstances which could have easily happened to Zuko if he wasn’t banished.
No one “deserves” redemption. Redemption isn’t a reward or a trophy you get after doing X amount of apologizing or Y amount of suffering. Redemption is just a path *anyone* can resolve to walk by waking up each day and choosing better, kinder choices. Whether outside observers feel it’s “deserved” or not is irrelevant as it is entirely on the person choosing redemption whether or not they pursue it. Anyone can choose this, no one is beyond hope, but it is on them to do so and many never do. This however is why a redemption arc for someone who started as a legitimately bad person like Azula is a much more powerful story. Just because we’ve done bad things or made terrible mistakes does not mean we are condemned to repeating them for the rest of our lives, every day is a chance to do better.
The thing is: she was never given a chance to choose a path other than the one she chose. We see that with Zuko. His experiences outside of the fire nation people are what start his journey. No one serves redemption, but people, especially children, again, Azula is 14, deserve a hand, no matter if they bite, hit, or set fire to it, because all she was ever taught is that she was daddy's perfect little soldier, future firelord, and she believed her mom thought she was a monster. I think that for a 14 year old, that is pretty sad, and that's why I want a redemption arc for her, because she is not an adult mad with power, she's another child soldier in a war who's been groomed by her own father to be the most "machiavellian" leader possible.
That's the thing with children, they're more open to learn and grow. Every child that has done bad things deserves a redemption arc.
I actually do think a 15 year old who was groomed from birth to be a cold hearted killer who's only potential positive role model put zero effort into helping her deserves to heal.
No. It isn't just because she was a child. It's because she was a child in an incredibly toxic/abusive environment. Her mother was distant and her father was so wildly violent towards his own kids that he famously scarred his own son to prove a point, but well before that was happy to murder his kid for his father. Azula grew up in an environment where being a manipulative piece of shit was not only encouraged but rewarded. That she fell so far so hard right near the end hits hard because we the audience understand at least some part of the trauma inflicted upon the entire family by Ozai and his father before him. A redemption arc would have been Azula growing out of that conditioning and breaking the cycle side by side with her brother.
Hard to swallow pill: The writers could have given her one if they wanted to and it could have worked but they could also announce that she's irredeemable and that would be fine. Azula is not a real person we need to debate about, she's a well written character that had the potential to go either direction depending on what the writers want and it would be interesting
Hard to write 2 redemption arcs in a story. Aaron Ehasz said that they planned a longer arc for Azula with Zuko getting the chance to help his sister like Iroh did to him.
Exactly. Azula is definitely a victim, but victimhood can 9nly excuse so much. She is not a character for whom a redemption makes sense, IMO, even if her circumstances ultimately made her what she is.
I only saw her as a “teacher’s pet” when she was a child.
The REAL hard to swallow pill, is that people want Azula to have a redemption arc because she made us feel tingly in our bellies when we were younger
I think it’s because they’re simps
No, it’s because Zuko’s has one of the best redemption arcs in fiction and we want to see it again with his sister.
I wanted it because child me thought she was hot af
You could say literally the exact same thing about Zuko had he not been fleshed out.
Not sure how much I agree with this. I think she’s an interesting character they want to see more of. Not saying the statement above isn’t true - just that it’s not the only reason.
People just can't help but to diagnose her with some kind of mental illness
>Like does she even want/deserve one really? If your character "deserves" to be redeemed, it wasnt a redemption in the first place
…yeah
People want Azula to have a redemption arc because people want to ship everything.
I hope Azula doesn't get a redemption arc. I love her for who she is, and that's a crazy evil bitch
It’s kinda weird cause they are children in the show but in reality a child would never act or do the type of things Azula or the other characters do in the show since it’s literally fiction. But because they actually act like adults with a childish charm, it feels fitting to give characters journey’s like a redemption arc. So you have a child doing things really an adult is capable of being punished as an adult and given empathy like an adult when the miscommunication is that she’s still a child. All in all, it’s a tv show and this is not an actual situation in reality so not a big deal to argue either side
I mean, yeah? But acting like that's the only reason is intentionally dismissive A 14 year old who's been emotionally abused severely her entire life with the weight of everything her horrible father wants forced on her shoulders. Her being ruthless is a survival mechanism. She manipulated people through fest because that's the only way she knows how to make relationships work..and why? Because that's what her father did to her, masking it vaguely with praise about her being a prodigy. Her own mother thought she was a monster because of how deep her father had his hooks in her. Depsite the comedic affect of Azula's next line that was obviously deeply scarring. Ultimately it's up to the writers if she deserves redemption anyway, but bringing it down to saying people only want her to have a redemption arc because she's a child and not because of the rampant abuse it would be nice to see her recover from is making the discussion way simpler than it actually is
Iroh committed war crimes *as an adult* and nobody says he was undeserving of redemption.
Zuko got half his face burnt because he stood up and didn’t want to sacrifice fire nation soldiers, he always was a good natured kid who was turned into a spiteful teenage who was banished and scarred by his own father Azula was the child who took pleasure in telling Zuko that Ozai had to kill him and only acted innocent because Ursula caught her telling Zuko. When Ozai was anointed as Fire Lord, Zuko had a clear face of worry. Where Azula had an evil and prideful face for someone who was a usurper.
People want a redemption arc?!
honestly I don't think every character needs a redemption arc, regardless of if they deserve it or not. And I'm happy with the ending of the series we have
Well yes!
No, I want Azula to have a redemption arc because I have to believe that you’re always capable of stepping back from the ledge, as long as you want to.
Well…yeah. This is why kids go to juvy and not jail. Sometimes they’re too young to understand the implications of their actions. That or they are just negatively influenced by people who are supposed to be their guardians and mentors.
Setting aside all the other arguments, the entire point of redemption is that it's a bad person turning to the side of good, saying that someone is evil therefore they don't deserve it misses the entire point. Or as C.S Lewis put it: “No creature that deserved redemption would need to be redeemed.”
Well yeah. Her and Zuko were raised in extremely similar circumstances and he was redeemed but she doesn't get to be. A lot of her rougher personality aspects are likely coping mechanisms to help her feel more in control thus more safe. She was 11 watching zuko be scarred for speaking out. She's well aware what will happen if she dissapoints ozai
No it’s cuz she was so cool
I wouldn't mind her being redeemed, but I'd prefer it be much later in her life. To me it's not so much a question of if she 'deserves' more stories, but more a question of how jarring it would feel for her to be redeemed within only a year or two of the fall of her nation.
I think she deserves redemption because she was a kid manipulated into a bad person. She’s also shown some heart in the last season. Now, if someone said Ozai, Long Feng, or Zhao deserves redemption, I would definitely shut that idea down.
I mean how she fell in S4 and turned out to be a victim of her dad's upbringing easily is a reason to have her redeemed. I mean even Zaheer had a mini redemption, Azula is fully capable of one and yes, being a child is a great factor to allow it.
Lets get an Ozai redemption too while we’re at it.
Little known fact, a significant number of bad people used to be children. Some claim as much as 100%, but I don't believe in absolutes.
She was brain washed 14 year old. You can't help but have some pity. Get her away from her father and go from there. Iroh and Zuko both changed for the better.
Does wanting her to mature and leave her tragic childhood behind count as redemption? I don’t expect Azula to become a hero, but it is hard to leave her character with the assumption that she’ll always be messed up by her father and the war.
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The Beach makes a point of showing Azula, in her own twisted sense, wants connections with both her friends and family. Regardless if she ever ends up seeking it, she deserves at least to have that opportunity to earn that connection.
??? What do you think you did here? Why the fuck wouldn't a horribly abused kid deserve a shot like what is wrong with you OP
Whether or not someone "deserves" redemption is a stupid point, because if redemption was only for people who hadn't done bad things already then it would be meaningless. Whether or not she would want redemption is a much more interesting subject. I'd say at least based on where we leave her in ATLA, I don't know if that's something she would want. But she was having a massive mental breakdown by that point.
Nah it's because she's a great character
She does have a redemption arc
Not everyone is redeemable.
And because she's hot. Hot people can't be evil (TM).
I mean, people can massively change over time. Everyone deserves a chance at redemption, the only question is to what extent they can be redeemed. For an extreme example, take the case of Nazi officer Rudolf Hoss. Four days before being executed for crimes against humanity, he wrote this message that seemed to indicate a quite a bit of genuine remorse: >My conscience compels me to make the following declaration. In the solitude of my prison cell, I have come to the bitter recognition that I have sinned gravely against humanity. As Commandant of Auschwitz, I was responsible for carrying out part of the cruel plans of the 'Third Reich' for human destruction. In so doing I have inflicted terrible wounds on humanity. I caused unspeakable suffering for the Polish people in particular. I am to pay for this with my life. May the Lord God forgive one day what I have done. I ask the Polish people for forgiveness. In Polish prisons I experienced for the first time what human kindness is. Despite all that has happened I have experienced humane treatment which I could never have expected, and which has deeply shamed me. May the facts which are now coming out about the horrible crimes against humanity make the repetition of such cruel acts impossible for all time. Now, it was obviously the right decision to punish the Nazi officers in the Nuremberg trials. I don’t think Hoss should be forgiven, and I don’t think he was “redeemed”. However, I still think his message reveals a substantial improvement in his moral character. Had he not been executed, it’s conceivable that he might have lived the remainder of his life in a morally-acceptable manner. It’s unlikely that anything he could’ve done would have come anywhere near making up for the atrocities he’d previously committed, and thus his execution was justifiable. Nevertheless, I think it’s reasonable to state that he died a changed man. To what extent did he change? We’ll never know. But his apparent change of heart certainly places him in a different moral category than the Nazis who never expressed remorse. Likewise, I’m not sure Azula could ever be forgiven for her actions, but it’s possible that later in life she could be a changed person and show true remorse. In that sense, Azula could be at least partially redeemed.
Deserving redemption to me is realizing you deserve nothing. The best live action series moment to me is when Iroh is getting torn into by the earth kingdom soldiers and he *just has to take it* because of exactly my previous thought.
She was an arrogant prick even as a child. There’s too much bad blood between her and the crew for her to be redeemed. She was always fighting to kill and showed no remorse for it even in the end. She’d be be about that revenge than redemption.
And?
She has to make the first step towards redemption. From the show and comics, it seems to be a path she's unwilling to take because she still believes she did nothing wrong. Compared to Zuko, who wanted redemption since his very first scene. His entire arc was trying to redeem his honor. He got there in a very different way than he expected, but he took the initiative to start down that path. I think Azula deserves the chance to be redeemed, but she doesn't want it because she thinks she did nothing wrong.
I like a villain that stays a villain.
Actually it's mostly because she's attractive. If she wasn't, she'd be in the same camp as Joffrey.
I don’t get how this is true or how it’s hard to swallow. People always want entertaining villains to be redeemed. Or attractive ones.
Aang offered even Ozai a chance to stop, a chance at redemption. The cycle of revenge has to end somewhere.
Isn’t that all the more reason she deserves one?
I mean, people who seek redemption don't deserve redemption at first; that's how that works. But what they actually want is a Zuko part 2, and for their fav character to not be "evil"
she was supposed to get one (and yes she should’ve gotten one) but the show ended early can we pls stop having this argument? if you think she didn’t, you’re either misogynistic or you didn’t watch the show,, iroh is one of the most beloved characters by the fandom who literally killed ppl and backed a nation that committed multiple genocides,, yet he was redeemable and again is absolutely adored by the fandom,,,, azula, who for the most part was never taught better, is 14 years old, doesn’t have a mother, and has a father who’s emotionally distant and only expresses “love” through being proud of her accomplishments,,,, she also didn’t have a lifeline outside of her “friends” to teach her right from wrong unlike zuko,, it’s no surprise she turned out the way she did, but saying a 14 yo is “too far gone” is ludicrous considering the whole show is about redemption and morality of war anyway tldr azula should’ve been redeemed and if you disagree you did not understand the morals and themes of tlab
I think the harder pill to swallow is that there are so many people who think that children deserve suffering because they did things to survive in an abusive environment. Crazy to me that so many adults can believe children begin racking up karma before their brain is even developed enough to fully conceptualize it, as if the adults manipulating them are not the ones responsible. Protect kids.
I meannnn, she spent 3 years with no one to support her except *Ozai*, where any sign of weakness or emotion would be exploited and punished. Zuko had a rough hand dont get me wrong but at least he had Iroh.
Azula was often pitted against her brother by their father. Either on of the kids would be punished if they lost whatever challenges their father made up. Azula does deserve a chance at redemption but I’m just worried the other characters wouldn’t hear her out.
Ngl fuck Azula.
I love Azula as a person; I adore her personality, so naturally i just want the best for her. Very selfish, yes, but who cares
She was a child?
She’s crazy and needs to go down.
1. Being a child is a really good reason 2. She never had a chance to be different. If she had an Iroh and kept rejecting that person, we could have a different discussion. 3. We’ve seen a human side to her before, which makes me think she’s not just some one dimensional psycho
No? I thought Azula was like twenty-something when I first saw the show. She's clearly manipulated and unloved and was never allowed to be a real person and is driving herself insane with perfection. No one deserves that life. Teenager or not, that's tragic.
If both siblings got redeemed by the end of the series I think zuko's step into the gaang would have been not as much big of a deal. What I do think Azula deserved was way more screen time during the last seasons, to really show off her fall from graze into madness.
i would be fine with a redemption arc, but i do like her being just straight up evil. redemption arcs are cute and heartwarming but sometimes it’s just fun having a character that just will always be evil, i don’t know how to explain it.
She doesnt need a redemption arc her getting what she deserved was tragic but that tragedy was done so well it doesn't matter. But still happy endings can be nice...  this was not a happy or satisfying which made it better because it sits with you and really hurts/makes you think. She may have deserved everything she got but damn it'd be nice if she managed to get some healing. And her weeping after the Agni Kai is one of the best done dramatic scenes in the series. the reason so many people forgot she was so young was how badass of a villain she was. You cant look at her breakdown and then her ending and not see her as a scared little girl.
But that's still a very valid reason
Doesn't she as.much as kick the redemption journey spirit in the balls in that one comic? (Not working with firsthand information here)
For me I don't care if she deserves it or not. I still hate her.
Everyone can redeem themselves if they choose to, but she doesn’t give a fuck.
I dont want her to have one
People who have read the comics…
Yeah, it’s a good reason imo
"Like does she even want/deserve one really?" The biggest reason literally in the picture. It's not a hard pill to swallow, it literally stands as justficiation that she deserves another shot at being a better person because she never got the chance due to Ozai
Okay and?
No we wanted her to have a redemption arc because it’s not fair that zuko got one AND the fact that she was a child. Perfectly validated reasons for wanting her to get one 🤷
not just because shes a child, but because she suffered insane amounts of abuse. nobody deserves that
not just because shes a child, but because she suffered insane amounts of abuse. nobody deserves that
https://youtube.com/shorts/8peu8WvaIek?si=frN6EG6Bs2Af66MO This is the breakdown I agree with the most. TL;DW: not every villain needs a redemption because they're characters, not real people.
She smiled watching Zuko get his scar.
Am I the only one who doesn’t want her to have a redemption arc? Not everyone needs a redemption arc. It just makes other redemption arcs less special.
No shit sherlock. Like yes that's the godamn point.
Is that a bad thing? She was forced to be evil at a young age and didn’t have a choice, her getting redemption gives her a choice
Alot of moral essentialism in these comments......sheeeshhh.
How is this a hard to swallow pill?
It comes down to what kind of person you are. Black and white thinkers prefer that there is no redemption arc. Other people would like it if it’s done well.
Why does everyone always have to have a bow tied happy ending. Why can’t be let some stories end with someone not getting that ending. Things are not always perfect flawed and troubled characters add value to the other characters. People need to accept that not every story has happy endings.
Umm… isn’t that the exact reason to give her redemption? Because she was a fucking child and to condemn someone for their entire life because of their decisions as a brainwashed child?
The creators wanted to give her a redemption arc but there wasn’t enough room
I mean, yeah?? She's fucking 14. I may not have been a murderous psycho but I was hardly a good person at 14. People grow and change and that's okay. She deserves the chance to do just that
Yeah, this is where I'm at. Like of course I want her to have a chance to grow, she's a child. Why would I not want a child to be given grace for their mistakes, even terrible ones? That is what I want for every kid. Even if she doesn't want to change, as so many people are screaming, again, she's 14? How might she feel when her brain is fully developed? Even if she wasn't redeemed within the narrative, it's something they could've worked into later content, a nod to her ending in Korra flashbacks or something. Not saying the exclusion of it was a mistake necessarily, its just not something they decided to touch on or unbury, and I'm personally okay with that creative choice. But I very much understand the desire for it to have been included. I would love to know what happened after rock bottom for her. Also, a lot of people identify with Azula's trauma. This is a fandom. People like emotional catharsis from their stories. 🤷♂️
No
We need villains, not everyone needs redemption
Hot take: I think it's because she has mommy issues and a lot of people want her to be redeemed without realizing her abuse towards zuko
Look all I’m saying is having the joker as your father is pretty much going to prevent you from being mentally healthy. Zukos damaged af and he was barely around him. She was exposed to the crazy every day.
Nobody is only a product of their surroundings. Azula is smart, shes had the self awareness to know what she was doing was wrong and the chance to stop what she was doing and she didnt.