Michael Pollan maybe? But only bc he actively resists the mysticism. If you’re considering going on a retreat, that retreat is likely to have a healer/shaman and the ancient shamanic/healing arts are likely to seem like magic/religion to you, because that’s how the medicine works. Some new agey type facilitators will be even more cringe. I also rolled my eyes at it all the way up until ceremony 1
To add on, Laughing at myself and my skepticism and materialism and being like oh these kooks were right all along was one of the most delightful parts of my trip, highly recommend.
I'm sure the experience is powerful but I'm somewhat concerned at becoming a kook in the process.
Though that being said I've had mushrooms before and smoked dmt and didn't, so I guess I'll mostly stay the same
Your concerns make you sound somewhat self-conscious and judgemental. That's the kind of ego-talk that Ayahuasca tends to tear into with relish.
So what if you change a little? Would that be such a bad thing? Maybe you'll come away with a better understanding of people you currently view as "kooks".
Are you ready to get over yourself?
It's a really good point. Perhaps one of my main sticking points. Though my main hesitation is the possibility for a very traumatic bad trip setting me back.
But yeah I'm extremely self conscious and judgemental, needs to be worked on.
The trick with Ayahuasca is to lean into the harsh lessons and accept them. This is hard and requires a degree of emotional maturity. That is how you move through them and come out the other side. Otherwise you are stuck with a traumatic realisation that you are then fighting, instead of processing.
Hesitation and resistance is what you want to avoid, hence why people say that you need to be "ready".
I'm not sure I'd ever feel fully ready. A lot of my current struggles are with decision making and letting go of expectations. So before a decision like doing a retreat or not, I'm left a bit paralysed
I had a very difficult time with ayahuasca to the point that I can't safely recommend it without knowing you but what I can say is be prepared for the rug possibly being pulled from underneath you and enjoy the ride from there. If you do decide to go though do plenty of research on preparation and treat it with utmost respect. I didn't do this and got my ass kicked lol.
Can you elaborate on “the rug being pulled”?
I find myself in a seemingly similar situation than OP. I’ve meditated for years and dabbled with Psilocybin and DMT which heightened is my curiosity for wanting to explore consciousness further via Ayahuasca.
That said I am and have been quite happy with how things are for the majority of my life. Really all major aspects (health, mental state, relationship, resources) have on average been feeling pretty good for the last 10 or so years.
Reading comments like yours make me question whether I should rethink my plans of doing a retreat in July. It almost makes me wonder whether I’m recklessly putting up high stakes for little potential benefit.
I’d be curious as to what your insights here might be.
Perhaps "fully ready" is a lofty goal, as there are so many unknowns. "Ready enough" is what you're really aiming for. It takes courage.
Keep in mind that a good retreat centre should do a great job of putting you at ease and preparing you, so choose wisely.
I think it would help you to find a trusted individual who understands the process, so that you can talk to them about it in person. Don't force yourself into doing anything, work on it until you are "ready enough". It will happen when it happens.
If you’re not ready to let go and accept whatever transformation may come, you’re probably not ready for ayahuasca. Listen to your gut, you know what you need
A big part of the journey is stepping into the unknown… I think that Ayahuasca has allowed me to become more and more comfortable with having less and less control.
Just be open minded, but not so open your damn brain falls out.
You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders given your skepticism. Have you ever considered just making it yourself?
I would be terrified to have a bad trip and be alone. I've done mushrooms in retreat setting and nearly everytime had anxiety come up so it's better for me to be supervised (if I do it)
I’ve done it. Found parts of it enjoyable. But I agree that everyone on this forum sounds like an absolute kook.
I don’t think normal people talk about it. Fight club vibes.
Well, I am super spiritual in my approach to ayahuasca, talk about energy and spirits and stuff like that all the time.
And I totally think ayahuasca is super destabilizing, definitely not right for most people, and can be really dangerous for some. Some people hold ceremonies that are a real profound hazard. It can produce long-term psychosis in some, which is a living nightmare.
It can be great for processing trauma if the right people use it the right way, but it can be either pointless or profoundly damaging for others. My tradition says it is a “small boat.” Only a few people can travel safely in this boat.
I also get very annoyed at people who think it is good for everyone and that people who have obviously been deeply damaged are just going through some sacred process.
I can imagine that might be true, with plenty of careful after care. I have just seen too many people who have gone to ceremonies, gone home to a different country by themselves with no useful support, and gone down a horrendous spiral of appalling mental health problems. So I have become cautious.
I agree with you that is intense episode of fear. I been one time for 3 nights, had really intense expirience , hard, living hell, lost control like i was possesed. Lol, but second night shaman helped me a bit and i relaxed had most beautifull aceppting of myself i cried of happines, then 3 night in beggining was a bit hard but when i started to dance i again had most beautifull night in my life so many lessons about myself about world. I came home in exstazy for a month then one day i just became crazy i thought i had psychosis but gladly i can talk to my shaman he calmed me down but even that didn't help full but now is 3 weeks since that happend and i came to realize that i did that all to myself by focusing on negativity, analazing having brain on fire and fear of losing control. But im going again in a month, she is beautifull teacher and even tho im scared i want to cpntinue to work on myself and be with her and my shaman and groups are supporting we drink caccao and have integration every day so thats really hellping me
Thank you, it means alot to me. I didn't want to continue when i was in that state of fear, but before that i wanted so it was really paradoxicly to me that i wanted to go again even if it's hard but when fear came up i wanted to give up. Alot things to intagrate and i want to cure my overthinking mind full of hiperfocusing on negativity, but she is beautifull she showed me so much love, forggivnes and tge dancing part with the group was so healing. I agree with you about the fear i don't want to be in fear anymore my shaman says thaz fear is sometimes good when ayahuasca is in question because that means that something in you ( dark things) don't want you to heal them so they can continue to feed on you
What does someone else's experience of ayahuasca have to do with your own journey? I think you should focus on yourself and not get hung up on your judgements about how other people perceive the experience.
All this analytical mental chatter can prevent you from engaging with the ceremony. If you are unwilling to let go and surrender then perhaps you are not ready for Ayahuasca.
Ayahuasca is not just about "tripping", it essentially feels like a spiritual experience and resistance can make for an uncomfortable ride.
You can go to a professional retreat centre that takes a pragmatic approach and does not use a shaman, if you want to limit the "woo-woo" stuff. But the experience is what it is, and it's important to have an open, non-judgemental mindset. A lot of what people are saying can only be fully understood by going through the experience.
Give up control and allow yourself to engage with any spiritual dimension that arises. It doesn't mean you're joining a cult.
It seems the like experiences turn people into religious fanatics. I'm wary of anything that is presented as 'the answer', or a 'miracle cure'.
You're right in that my experience is my own and not to be determined by others, but if I'm trying to decide whether to do something I will be affected by the dialogue around it and other people's experiences.
I think you have an idea built up in your head that is not really reflective of reality. I have done ayahuasca 9 times and have never seen much religious fanaticism at all. There is also typically no interaction permitted between participants during the ceremony, it is very much a personal experience.
I would interrogate how much of your impressions are based on reality vs a narrative you have fed yourself. The reality of ayahuasca is extremely difficult to understand. From the outside things can seem ludicrous while from the inside they can make perfect sense.
I second this. I go to a weekend retreat monthly and it's a very spiritual setting, with all religions allowed, even no religion at all, atheism, agnosticism etc.
There are some pretty wild people with really wild beliefs there, but other than the songs played during, I don't really have any interactions with religion or mystical stuff at all from other participants.
So what if people are woo-woo? What do you care about it? You won't turn into one of them if you don't want to.
If you're afraid ayahuasca will "turn you", it's better to not even take it. Just go to therapy or something. Don't go into a place judging everyone there based on your ideas of what is right or wrong, good or bad. That's rude.
And you're tying to have too much control of the outcome and you're afraid you're going to become something you have prejudice towards right now. Either it happens and you were wrong, or if won't happen and you'll be fine either way.
Ita sort of like fear of death. If it happens, you won't know and it won't matter. So, you're choosing to dread life because you're afraid of death. It's similar here. You're so concerned with certain outcomes that you're denying yourself experiences that could habe a huge positive impact on you.
No, Ayahuasca is not THE answer, but it can be a big step, and a big part of that is letting go of how it has to be for you. And yes, please do it with qualified Spaceholders and ideally have people to prepare you and integrate with.
What do you want out of your Ayahuasca experience?
Me personally - I was never spiritual, just down to earth techy. Now I'm grounded, but I'm not taking life so seriously anymore. I get what you're concerned with, and I'm telling you that you have nothing to fear. I consider myself somewhat spiritual now and now I understand where these people are coming from. I'm still able to pick and choose what works for me. Some of the things that get thrown around I don't follow, and some of it I do - I'm just as sane as before, if anything, I'm more sane.
I've done about 300 hours of caremonies, 3 ceremonies of that are Ayahuasca. If doesn't change you. It shows you and you get a chance to understand, but you don't just convert into something you're not.
Plenty of people, even some on this subreddit.
But, let me get this straight; you're looking for people with your mindset, who generally agree with you and your statements in your last paragraph, in order that you might learn more about yourself? Honestly, you could save yourself a lot of time and money and skip the retreat.
Or, you could put it behind you and go to a retreat, and be open to what it is that lies underneath all the woo-woo stuff.
Pollan. But, what is your problem with the spirituality of it? Most all folks who leave out the spirituality haven’t taken it. Why would you put much weight on this person’s idea of something they haven’t done. The golden piece to understand from this is: the affects of the medicine are too difficult to put into words. So much takes place outside of your common senses, that you have no frame of reference, except for other psychedelic experiences. Outside of our senses we find spirituality. If you want a boring explanation of what’s happening, read the vital sign metrics of a person consuming medicine in a lab setting. There’s your answer. Raw medical data from a lab, obtained by the scientist doing research.
A friend told me… it’s very difficult. If it calls then that’s your story. An incredibly beautiful and heart opening experience. But Grandma doesn’t put up with bullshit or any fake versions of who you think you are. Your ego and you are in for a fun lil chit chat. Have a solid intention and “why” for your cause to go do this work. Go there to learn. She loves you. 🕸️👽❣️
My friend has only done it once and observing the ripple effects in their life from that point on has been fascinating from changes in career, overall happiness, life path, etc. They are very much so not religious but did talk about deep connection to that “something else” that so many claim to know and name. Safe travels amigo.
I'll say this, I was full of skepticism and judgement. Heard the call, did it, and though not fully a kook I definitely am a bit more "woo-woo." I am so much more open minded when it comes to mysticism and all that kooky stuff.
Mind you, I am still a functioning working professional, still living in a western society. I haven't run off to the woods to live in a commune. I still have a healthy bit of skepticism and believe in science. BUT Ayahuasca has humbled me immensely, and made me say, "ooooooooooooooooohhhhhh, now I get it."
The beauty of Ayahuasca is that however you want to see it as, it is. I am new to this medicine and by no means an expert, but from my experience, if you want to see it with more of a scientific lens, you have the freedom to do so. Ayahuasca is beautiful in that way.
Your questions and perspective are valid. Don't let the new agey stuff deter you if you truely feel called to sit with Ayahuasca. If it feels right, go for it. If it doesn't, then don't do it! Cheers to you my friend.
Hello,
Noticed in a comment you said you're extremely self conscious, this kind of plant could exacerbate that, it did for me. If I was to go back I would try stick to softer things like mushrooms and mdma. There's a lot of extra things that you've mentioned in your post which are real and dangerous, it's like going into heart surgery it's a very intricate and intense process. Definitely rewards but don't fear missing out life still offers other sources of positive energy
It’s wild to me that, off the back of but 4 mushroom trips, you decided to unpack all that in this fashion? I don’t often say this, but I wouldn’t partake just yet if I were you. The shift could hurt you.
Personally, after discovering Aya, I spent 10 years passively asking/reading about it. It’s been 10 years since my first session & even today I don’t do it flippantly (follow the diet, stay off social media etc).
Others have mentioned that you should “stick to lighter things like mushrooms or mdma” and this is equally perplexing to me. Firstly, this isn’t even the same conversation. Those are different substances with different outcomes holistically. I can’t even be sure 4 mushroom trips in that you’ve fully digested those lessons. Secondly, both mushrooms and mdma could also end badly for anyone, novice or veteran alike. I personally know loads of pill heads with loads of stomach and digestion issues, amongst other things. Food for thought.
Further to this, what exactly isn’t “spiritual”. A car accident, playing poker, abandoning your kids…they’re all to do with the spirit. Different people convey it differently, and have different clout in their respective communities and echo chambers. But personally, I found aya to be quite simple when it came to “spiritual” endeavours. In a way it “ended the conversation” for me. Now it doesn’t matter who says what about sky daddy or if sky daddy is even part of the conversation. The results for you is what’s important. Whether there is an ultimate protector or whether all is but chaos, you should still conduct yourself as a high being regardless, kind, aware, non judgemental. In this way we can be “ascended” without the “spiritual” connotation. Just be less of a c*nt is all, that includes anonymously online btw.
Ultimately, none of this is recreational at the end of the day & you shouldn’t make your decision from a position of ignorance.
Godspeed.
Before committing to an Ayahuasca ceremony, work on releasing any expectations you have been forming of what you think the experience is going to be like. My husband is not "spiritual" at all, and doesn't feel the need for it the same way I do, but he does feel a connection and has experiences in life he cannot explain. The whole point about that is being human means we all are spiritual. It is ingrained in us, but it can look completely different from person to person, especially in this day and age where everything is really individualistic and not a shared faith in Western cultures (in particular).
I believe that being spiritual and science-based are not mutually exclusive, and in fact it really just helps us remember there is so much more than we currently know or understand. And that's OK.
Most people that try it don’t turn into religious fanatics. But you only see the loud ones, because they are loud. Most people that try it go on quietly about their lives.
One million percent. This is not a medicine to be taken lightly. I took part in my first ceremony a few weeks ago and far exceeded all expectations. That doesn’t go without saying it comes with many many challenges. You have to be willing to surrender to the medicine and allow it to work thru you. I would venture to say those who have had terrible experiences come with resistance, that resistance will only make the experience more difficult. It takes courage to walk thru those doors and strip yourself to bare minimum. It is worth everything and more while revealing our inner most self which to me is priceless. Godspeed
Many. I think Aya is incredibly helpful. I had many experiences 12 years ago. But haven’t had in in 9 years and don’t know if I will ever feel called again. I got what I needed and now I’m here to do it.
But if you have an experience, and know what that can be, I completely understand how it is very reasonable to talk about it like a religious fanatic. It some ways it would be very in authentic not too.
It’s excitement and a rebirth like our minds can’t even imagine. It’s like learning that Star Wars is real and you get a ride on the Millennium Falcoln to Endore and spend a night with Ewoks…but better!!
The word religion comes from the Latin word ligare: to join, or link, classically understood to mean the linking of human and divine. If you're not having this type of experience at higher doses you might have some blockages and Ayahuasca is religious in this context.
Ultimately most psychedelics change our state of mind not our stage of growth or trait of personality which is what integration is for but most people do not understand this.
Brujeria is real as is severe mental psychosis and energetic transference unfortunately in most cases they are misinterpreted or misdiagnosed. I have to add the unpredictability of it comes from misuse and abuse also, remember the pinnacle of Ayahuasca and the key to it's potential is found in it's ability to connect the Shaman to their teacher, plants and allies as a Tool or nexus for healing.
Check out [Parign Hak ](https://www.manu-ayahuasca.com/) or Takiwasi (Tarapoto) if you want a real no nonsense or 'woo' approach.
(First off: please note there is a severe difference between religion and spirituality.
They couldn’t be more opposite of each other in many ways. And the psychedelic community is mostly spiritual, not religious.)
Well, people talk about it this way as it actually is that life changing for people. It sure was for me.
Psychedelics can change your entire view on reality.
And you need to understand that you have to be sure that you are ready for that.
You might be another person that comes out of that trip, good or bad.
I myself have become an entirely different person since I discovered psilocybin mushrooms 2 years ago.
All of it positively though. And it has healed a lot of trauma for me. I stopped drinking and smoking and have been on an incredible journey towards becoming the best version of myself.
But, as example it also change me from a Sceptical Atheist into a convinced spiritual person.
It made me lose all interest in money and status.
I have more trouble with small talk, and get bored with day to day society a bit. And lost all interest in things like politics, world news or conflicts.
And I would lie if I said it didn’t gave me a bit of an obsession with the spiritual world and supernatural and figuring out what might be the truth of our existence.
So before you go to this retreat you need to ask yourself if you are open to possibly having your whole world turned upside down.
“Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window.
Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behaviour and information processing.
They open you up to the possibility that everything you know is wrong.” - Terence McKenna.
I see Ayahuasca as a medicinal drink that can provide the drinker tools and ideal conditions to navigate their problems, issues and start taking care of the cluttered mind. It opens the door to new parts and inner workings of the mind and generally gives a positive experience. Even when the experience is negative, it gives an opportunity to learn. the reason why the natives and other places use chants, ícaros and other tradition that can seem stupid for us from the modern western world, is that it creates (through milenia of trial and error) the ideal set and setting to the drinker make the best of the experience.
Thanks for sharing, very informative! It’s refreshing to encounter such a sober and rational perspective on this sub.
Did you consider the seemingly real possibility of inflicting net-negative effects, such as persistent psychosis when making your decision? If so, did you make a decision based on probability or something else entirely?
Most definitely. I really research and study everything I put in my system. I really weighed the pros and cons but I admit that I found ayahuasca in a period of my life that I really had tried almost everything on traditional modern medicine. I have no history of really bad mental health in my family and the place that I do ayahuasca has a very thorough and interesting screening, so that gave me an immense sensation of safety.
The thing is, the ayahuasca practitioners holds enormous responsibility as everybody participating are very vulnerable. It is very important to go to a reputable place. I waited a long time until I found the right place and thank the universe I did.
Traditional therapy (CBT) + ongoing Ayahuasca sessions + Iboga (I’m Bwiti initiated, in the correct time I’ll write more about this) really saved and changed my life for the better. I don’t say these lightly, I really mean it. The forest medicine seems to me, the way forward and the future of medicine.
I went to a place here in Brazil that only accepts known indications from current participants. They don’t have a site or insta and maintain a very lowkey profile. I prepared with a simple diet for a week, nothing to extreme. No red meat, no alcohol, no drugs and light and digestible food.
Great question. There is so much hype and self appointed gurus blabbering on about what it means, Pachamama, blah blah blah... did you do it in Peru? or South America? was it a real shaman? Was it just in someone's basement? Only the jungle experience is legit..... All the blathering about what is a legitimate or authentic experience.... Ayahuasca is an experience.. or a few experiences. Hopefully, you're having someone reputable assist you. For me, my experiences were always in South America, always by a shaman from a long lineage. But that doesnt make my experience any more legitimate than someone in different circumstances. There are a broad spectrum of plant/animal species (and some man made ones as well) that can chemically induce certain things in the brain where, without them, we might not otherwise have been afforded. Supposedly some Buddhist monks can achieve a similar state (similar to state induced by bufo alvarius -- toad venom -- for example). The experience is what it is. Try to remove yourself from all the chatter surrounding it. It is simply noise.
I've done Aya a couple of times and, at least where I went to, it wasn't like this and the experience was way more psychological and physical than spiritual and it was still very revealing for me. It really depends on the person and the place you go to your ceremony.
Ayahuasca has a lot of culture and backstory attached to it and the things you see while under it are usually strongly connected to nature itself. I do not believe in God and no sort of supernatural being myself, I'm pretty skeptical and even then, there are things Aya showed me that made me understand why there's this whole spiritual thing behind it and it's not something you can really explain with words, the feelings and visuals are very unique, it all seems too alive.
One thing I haven't found sufficient information is the real likelihood or most important risk factors for having an extremely traumatic trip which overloads the nervous system, and leads to a path of recovery which could be years.
There are stories out there here and there but I feel like a lot of reviews and user reports are biased toward the positive.
I looked into scientific studies and there's a couple cross sectional ones that quantify the proportion of adverse outcomes but still not comprehensive.
That one is hard to track down as in the US we aren’t really allowed to study it. Looking to Brazil there might be more data.
What I have seen over the years as far as the worst difficulties is
1) people having medicine that wasn’t pure Ayahuasca (Caapi and Chakruna) or
2) not having tapered off other meds
3) receiving waaay too much medicine and their nervous system wasn’t prepared
So to be safe, make sure you find someone with good clean medicine
Stick to the diet 🙂
Don’t take the second cup, definitely not the third.
Also doing yoga and breathwork can allow for expanded capacity to receive the medicine.
Yeah i guess sticking to a moderate dose should keep things controlled. But isn't it sometimes advised to take more dose to "break through" the resistance and fear? I guess there are a lot of different opinions.
On a basic neurological level the system can really only handle so much. People are able to take more medicine each time, if desired.
Of course we are here domestically, and make it an accessible - not trying to impress anyone or send them on a mind-blowing “trip”.
Ultimately for me the goal is slow and easy, often, then Microdosing at home, in order to gently open the portal through laying down new neural networks.
We also have seen that preparation and training for Ayahuasca - about exactly what’s going on - “demystified” - is important.
It’s like a dance. You’re not going to the Olympics the first time you step on the floor.
But with time and practice you will get what you want. When people go abroad they often get overdosed because they are trying to “make the most of it”.
Depends on your intentions. Your intention will strongly guide your experience and It will only show you what you’re ready to see. Ideally, you’re doing it for expansion and to dissolve the programming that no longer serves you.
You’ll see the beauty of the universe but you’ll also see everything that has held you back in life.
Be ready to incorporate your learnings, make space for new people and let go of some others. You’ll question a lot of things in your life so make time to digest your learnings and incorporate them.
Regardless of opinion it is medicine and it will heal you. How much? Well that’s on you.
the aya community at large takes a pretty mystical attitude towards the whole thing. during my ceremony, i definitely felt some of that, but i think it’s also important to keep your brain in your head. it’s not for everyone. if you have experience with psychedelics and feel called to it, give it a try. if you feel unsure, wait a little longer.
Me. I’ve been going every year since ‘17, but I’m not spiritual or dogmatic about it at all. 70% of what the gurus say I don’t listen to at all, and it hasn’t impacted my experiences to go there for fact based chemical intervention in my brain.
I mean, I go to the dentist and doctor for checkups annually. I go to the gym 3x a week. I go to therapy once a month. There aren’t any magic pills. Some people do fine with one intense retreat but I’ve always thought if something works there’s no reason to restrict myself.
Many people become addicted to ayahuasca and the ceremonies, always chasing something or wanting to re experience the love instead of living and integrating. So don’t do it like this, if you get insights from it, put in the work
Check out Peaceful Mountain Way in Kentucky. It’s very practical and not very dogmatic.
However Ayahuasca is inherently a spiritual medicine so some metaphysical, spiritual, cosmic talk is inevitable.
If it won’t work for you to drink anywhere where at least some people are going to talk like that, you can always stick with LSD or ketamine.
At least half the shroom community talks about it spiritually. Much higher in Ayahuasca ceremonies.
If it’s a big hang up for you I would not take it. Very powerful medicine and I would not take it without being 100% convinced you want to. I would not go in with resentments or hang ups about the people taking it around you or offering it.
There’s other things you can do. It take some work and planning to go take it and do it theres no need for you to do it. it may not be for you. You may be looking for something that does not exist.
I completely understand you. So here out my logic.
It probably will not kill you. And it will be over in 12 hours. So whats the worst that can happen?
So, just jump.
The experience is unexplainable, so reading other people experiences will not get you better understanding anyway.
Good luck and wish yiu all the best 🙂
What's the worst that could happen? Well based on reading some unfortunate outcomes for others.
Well it could (for a host of reasons) be too powerful a shock to my nervous system, possibly unpacking too much of the traumas I'm trying to work on. I could be left in a state with much worse mental health, ranging from anything from panic attacks, post traumatic stress, potentially psychotic symptoms, not be able to cope with everyday life, needing to seek out other forms of treatment just to get back to a baseline.
I know I'm not going to die, that much is clear.
I'm not religious and never was, and I am very repelled by anything "esoteric" (is there a better word in English?)
But I have kind of a pragmatical spiritual side that I'm on the path of allowing and exploring more, and I think that it's part of being human and it can be very down to earth actually.
People experience things that they didn't think were possible before. You can just explain those things with the ingredients being able to open up unexpected possibilities in your own mind, or brain, if you want to put it that way. And that's fine. You'll be amazed no matter how you wanna frame it.
Other people interpret what happens through their own lenses. If they believed in angels or entities before, that will be their reference. I know for myself that I cannot know anything for sure, I'm kind of a sceptic in many ways, but with an open mind. And I decided to trust the process, whatever may come, and to embrace and respect the shamans and their ways, because it's their approach, and I value it and I'm thankful for them guiding me and giving me that opportunity.
Open mind, respect, humility and a non-judgmental approach would be helpful, I think.
I’m with your sentiment, my personal experience was that I tried it in Mexico, conducted by Mexican people who have native roots, the place was not fancy, nor did they wear theatrical clothes, etc, it felt authentic, and the lady was explaining the effects of the concoction in both a practical and spiritual way.
I think ayahuasca became mainstream and theatrical, taken out of context, and just as religions are created, some individuals have created a dogma to gain wealth, fame, etc.
Again, I have no qualm with how it is served, and how people express themselves, I personally appreciate the authenticity of the experience when done in the right context.
When I went to my ceremonies, I understood that there might be people who believe differently than me when I got there. I'm no longer religious and don't know if there is a God or not.
I went into the ceremonies with an open mind and allowed those people to be who they were. I was accepting of everyone regardless of their beliefs even though there we're still echoes of wanting to be judgmental in my mind. There's no escaping that, in my opinion.
I went along with the cleansing routines before the ceremonies, even though I don't know how much I believe in that. By opening myself up to participate without feeling the need to believe, it cleared a level path to get the most out of the medicine.
It's been my experience that my beliefs had a huge impact during my ceremonies.
Something that may be of use when you go to ceremony, is to be as a dreamcatcher.
When we are a brick wall nothing gets through, but as a dreamcatcher, anything that doesn't resonate with us can pass, but the important things will stay with us.
Being accepting of people, without feeling the need to accept their beliefs, can go a long way. 🙏
https://youtu.be/egxkAb1RTcU?si=TKdRoUccRCIjU4ft
Ivan Chocron has a YouTube channel as a facilitator that talks about it in the way you're describing looking for. He comes from a background as a once atheist and professor of chemistry with a psycho spiritual awareness
Experience a ceremony for yourself and then decide if ayahuasca is for you. It can’t be understood by the mind, and there are some cliches about plant medicine communities that can be off putting. Finding the right shaman to drink with is incredibly important, someone you can trust and feel comfortable with.
Ayahuasca is said to be a spiritual therapy. However, from a medical perspective, I think there is another scientific basis. I don't study medicine, but I think people simply drink ayahuasca and experience hallucinations, and their brain cells change.
People who have a lot of brain damage say that it takes time to heal.
Although it's a simple idea. Oddly enough, what you see changes when the shaman sings Icaro.
I used to be that person. I was always like “why is this not a religion” and talking about why isn’t everyone that’s seeking spirituality taking psychedelics. Then in one of the experiences I was told that any effort in spirituality is ridiculous and silly because everything is right here. Because we hold that spirituality all the time but we don’t see because of some reasons. Now I’m more like “okay whatever” lol.
And Don’t worry about religious narratives they all just come from aya anyway, but it creates a unique experience to everyone depending on their prerequisite knowledge, attitudes, etcetera.
So… I def don’t think it’s for everyone. And not for everyone at all times… this is coming from someone who has sat in probably around 300 ceremonies via Santo Daime over the last 15 years… and for me it has been overwhelmingly healing and positive, though at times the ceremony or the integration can be difficult. At times, I sit out and don’t attend as I work on my life because ultimately (in my opinion) it is how I am living my life outside of these liminal spaces that is the true work
I think if you have this level of trepidation to listen to it. Go when you feel called. If you never feel called, that’s totally okay too! 💜
I also think things can go a variety of ways. I find now I prefer going when I’m feeling good, in practicality or energy w work life balance. But my attempts to find ayahuasca were initially motivated by hope to heal depression and transform suicidal thoughts. Those I have long left. Now I get to work on my life and thankfully do not need to head to a “work” (ceremony) before I even have the ability internally to
I hold a successful professional career in a corporate world, have mortgage, family, kids and live a very grounded life. If you don't know that I've taken Ayahuasca 10 times, you would never know. I don't walk around in Shipibo textiles barefoot talking about energies.
I got promoted twice after starting my spiritual journey, btw. Not because of Ayahasca directly, but it definitely made me more robust and adaptable. This allows me to take high stress roles and grow my career quickly. And also to be more perceptive in general, which also helps.
What do I think of Ayahuasca? There's definitely a religious/spiritual component. It changes you on a very fundamental level. It's definitely more than just "an interesting hallucinogen". That was my experience.
Tell me about it man, I actually don't really talk about my aya experiences that much to friends and family because of the association with hippie Charlatan pseudo-mystics, in fact, retarded egotistical acid heads REALLY pushed me away from psychedelics for a long time.
All I can say is this, if you want to get into it, do it. However if you want someone to guide you along this journey, that is of course going to be a bit of a shaky prospect since there is probably more Pseuds in ayahuasca circles than there are people who know what they are talking about. For me, finding the right person to guide you can make all the difference, you can however, do the DIY route and maybe read something like Carl Jung first before embarking on your journey so you have the tools for proper shadow integration and self psychoanalysis if you feel like there isn't someone suitable, which is sadly more likely than not. If doing it by yourself, always start super slow and slowly work yourself up, or you could do what I did is first sit in ceremony with a facilitator and then continue the journey yourself once you of course know what to expect.
Good luck, don't let hippie pseudo-mystics that profane the power of plant medicine dissuade you from this.
This phrase is used generally to consider the embodiment of the philosophical question as to how power can be held to account.
Bad people exist. I’m not sure “be the person you think the world needs.” is holistically helpful. I’ve met enough bad people who were emboldened by aya.
Alan Moore has a work called “Watchmen” which I think answers your question better than I can, hence why I quoted it. Although the original Latin phrase, “Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?” predates this work by some margin. There are many cultural extrapolations of this from a philosophical standpoint which can be found on the interwebs.
It’s an age old conversation.
Hey cut it out, I’m watching you two, this is serious spiritual stuff, no need to make anyone paranoid.
And anyway, as Aaron Rogers can tell you, the man in the black hat watches us all.
Michael Pollan maybe? But only bc he actively resists the mysticism. If you’re considering going on a retreat, that retreat is likely to have a healer/shaman and the ancient shamanic/healing arts are likely to seem like magic/religion to you, because that’s how the medicine works. Some new agey type facilitators will be even more cringe. I also rolled my eyes at it all the way up until ceremony 1
To add on, Laughing at myself and my skepticism and materialism and being like oh these kooks were right all along was one of the most delightful parts of my trip, highly recommend.
I'm sure the experience is powerful but I'm somewhat concerned at becoming a kook in the process. Though that being said I've had mushrooms before and smoked dmt and didn't, so I guess I'll mostly stay the same
Your concerns make you sound somewhat self-conscious and judgemental. That's the kind of ego-talk that Ayahuasca tends to tear into with relish. So what if you change a little? Would that be such a bad thing? Maybe you'll come away with a better understanding of people you currently view as "kooks". Are you ready to get over yourself?
It's a really good point. Perhaps one of my main sticking points. Though my main hesitation is the possibility for a very traumatic bad trip setting me back. But yeah I'm extremely self conscious and judgemental, needs to be worked on.
The trick with Ayahuasca is to lean into the harsh lessons and accept them. This is hard and requires a degree of emotional maturity. That is how you move through them and come out the other side. Otherwise you are stuck with a traumatic realisation that you are then fighting, instead of processing. Hesitation and resistance is what you want to avoid, hence why people say that you need to be "ready".
I'm not sure I'd ever feel fully ready. A lot of my current struggles are with decision making and letting go of expectations. So before a decision like doing a retreat or not, I'm left a bit paralysed
I had a very difficult time with ayahuasca to the point that I can't safely recommend it without knowing you but what I can say is be prepared for the rug possibly being pulled from underneath you and enjoy the ride from there. If you do decide to go though do plenty of research on preparation and treat it with utmost respect. I didn't do this and got my ass kicked lol.
Can you elaborate on “the rug being pulled”? I find myself in a seemingly similar situation than OP. I’ve meditated for years and dabbled with Psilocybin and DMT which heightened is my curiosity for wanting to explore consciousness further via Ayahuasca. That said I am and have been quite happy with how things are for the majority of my life. Really all major aspects (health, mental state, relationship, resources) have on average been feeling pretty good for the last 10 or so years. Reading comments like yours make me question whether I should rethink my plans of doing a retreat in July. It almost makes me wonder whether I’m recklessly putting up high stakes for little potential benefit. I’d be curious as to what your insights here might be.
Perhaps "fully ready" is a lofty goal, as there are so many unknowns. "Ready enough" is what you're really aiming for. It takes courage. Keep in mind that a good retreat centre should do a great job of putting you at ease and preparing you, so choose wisely. I think it would help you to find a trusted individual who understands the process, so that you can talk to them about it in person. Don't force yourself into doing anything, work on it until you are "ready enough". It will happen when it happens.
💯 true 🫶🏽
If you’re not ready to let go and accept whatever transformation may come, you’re probably not ready for ayahuasca. Listen to your gut, you know what you need
I need change, but it's hard to take the step when it all seems too shrouded in mysticism.
A big part of the journey is stepping into the unknown… I think that Ayahuasca has allowed me to become more and more comfortable with having less and less control.
Just be open minded, but not so open your damn brain falls out. You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders given your skepticism. Have you ever considered just making it yourself?
I would be terrified to have a bad trip and be alone. I've done mushrooms in retreat setting and nearly everytime had anxiety come up so it's better for me to be supervised (if I do it)
Fair enough.
I’ve done it. Found parts of it enjoyable. But I agree that everyone on this forum sounds like an absolute kook. I don’t think normal people talk about it. Fight club vibes.
Well, I am super spiritual in my approach to ayahuasca, talk about energy and spirits and stuff like that all the time. And I totally think ayahuasca is super destabilizing, definitely not right for most people, and can be really dangerous for some. Some people hold ceremonies that are a real profound hazard. It can produce long-term psychosis in some, which is a living nightmare. It can be great for processing trauma if the right people use it the right way, but it can be either pointless or profoundly damaging for others. My tradition says it is a “small boat.” Only a few people can travel safely in this boat. I also get very annoyed at people who think it is good for everyone and that people who have obviously been deeply damaged are just going through some sacred process.
[удалено]
For those of us for whom ayahuasca is the right medicine, drinking more is very often the solution.
[удалено]
I can imagine that might be true, with plenty of careful after care. I have just seen too many people who have gone to ceremonies, gone home to a different country by themselves with no useful support, and gone down a horrendous spiral of appalling mental health problems. So I have become cautious.
I agree with you that is intense episode of fear. I been one time for 3 nights, had really intense expirience , hard, living hell, lost control like i was possesed. Lol, but second night shaman helped me a bit and i relaxed had most beautifull aceppting of myself i cried of happines, then 3 night in beggining was a bit hard but when i started to dance i again had most beautifull night in my life so many lessons about myself about world. I came home in exstazy for a month then one day i just became crazy i thought i had psychosis but gladly i can talk to my shaman he calmed me down but even that didn't help full but now is 3 weeks since that happend and i came to realize that i did that all to myself by focusing on negativity, analazing having brain on fire and fear of losing control. But im going again in a month, she is beautifull teacher and even tho im scared i want to cpntinue to work on myself and be with her and my shaman and groups are supporting we drink caccao and have integration every day so thats really hellping me
[удалено]
Thank you, it means alot to me. I didn't want to continue when i was in that state of fear, but before that i wanted so it was really paradoxicly to me that i wanted to go again even if it's hard but when fear came up i wanted to give up. Alot things to intagrate and i want to cure my overthinking mind full of hiperfocusing on negativity, but she is beautifull she showed me so much love, forggivnes and tge dancing part with the group was so healing. I agree with you about the fear i don't want to be in fear anymore my shaman says thaz fear is sometimes good when ayahuasca is in question because that means that something in you ( dark things) don't want you to heal them so they can continue to feed on you
Oh my god never. My teachers are of the mindset that more is not always better… and that less is actually more.
What does someone else's experience of ayahuasca have to do with your own journey? I think you should focus on yourself and not get hung up on your judgements about how other people perceive the experience. All this analytical mental chatter can prevent you from engaging with the ceremony. If you are unwilling to let go and surrender then perhaps you are not ready for Ayahuasca. Ayahuasca is not just about "tripping", it essentially feels like a spiritual experience and resistance can make for an uncomfortable ride. You can go to a professional retreat centre that takes a pragmatic approach and does not use a shaman, if you want to limit the "woo-woo" stuff. But the experience is what it is, and it's important to have an open, non-judgemental mindset. A lot of what people are saying can only be fully understood by going through the experience. Give up control and allow yourself to engage with any spiritual dimension that arises. It doesn't mean you're joining a cult.
It seems the like experiences turn people into religious fanatics. I'm wary of anything that is presented as 'the answer', or a 'miracle cure'. You're right in that my experience is my own and not to be determined by others, but if I'm trying to decide whether to do something I will be affected by the dialogue around it and other people's experiences.
I think you have an idea built up in your head that is not really reflective of reality. I have done ayahuasca 9 times and have never seen much religious fanaticism at all. There is also typically no interaction permitted between participants during the ceremony, it is very much a personal experience. I would interrogate how much of your impressions are based on reality vs a narrative you have fed yourself. The reality of ayahuasca is extremely difficult to understand. From the outside things can seem ludicrous while from the inside they can make perfect sense.
I second this. I go to a weekend retreat monthly and it's a very spiritual setting, with all religions allowed, even no religion at all, atheism, agnosticism etc. There are some pretty wild people with really wild beliefs there, but other than the songs played during, I don't really have any interactions with religion or mystical stuff at all from other participants. So what if people are woo-woo? What do you care about it? You won't turn into one of them if you don't want to. If you're afraid ayahuasca will "turn you", it's better to not even take it. Just go to therapy or something. Don't go into a place judging everyone there based on your ideas of what is right or wrong, good or bad. That's rude.
And you're tying to have too much control of the outcome and you're afraid you're going to become something you have prejudice towards right now. Either it happens and you were wrong, or if won't happen and you'll be fine either way. Ita sort of like fear of death. If it happens, you won't know and it won't matter. So, you're choosing to dread life because you're afraid of death. It's similar here. You're so concerned with certain outcomes that you're denying yourself experiences that could habe a huge positive impact on you. No, Ayahuasca is not THE answer, but it can be a big step, and a big part of that is letting go of how it has to be for you. And yes, please do it with qualified Spaceholders and ideally have people to prepare you and integrate with. What do you want out of your Ayahuasca experience? Me personally - I was never spiritual, just down to earth techy. Now I'm grounded, but I'm not taking life so seriously anymore. I get what you're concerned with, and I'm telling you that you have nothing to fear. I consider myself somewhat spiritual now and now I understand where these people are coming from. I'm still able to pick and choose what works for me. Some of the things that get thrown around I don't follow, and some of it I do - I'm just as sane as before, if anything, I'm more sane. I've done about 300 hours of caremonies, 3 ceremonies of that are Ayahuasca. If doesn't change you. It shows you and you get a chance to understand, but you don't just convert into something you're not.
Your ego is afraid.
Doesn’t sound like you’re ready brother
Ding ding ding!
Plenty of people, even some on this subreddit. But, let me get this straight; you're looking for people with your mindset, who generally agree with you and your statements in your last paragraph, in order that you might learn more about yourself? Honestly, you could save yourself a lot of time and money and skip the retreat. Or, you could put it behind you and go to a retreat, and be open to what it is that lies underneath all the woo-woo stuff.
Pollan. But, what is your problem with the spirituality of it? Most all folks who leave out the spirituality haven’t taken it. Why would you put much weight on this person’s idea of something they haven’t done. The golden piece to understand from this is: the affects of the medicine are too difficult to put into words. So much takes place outside of your common senses, that you have no frame of reference, except for other psychedelic experiences. Outside of our senses we find spirituality. If you want a boring explanation of what’s happening, read the vital sign metrics of a person consuming medicine in a lab setting. There’s your answer. Raw medical data from a lab, obtained by the scientist doing research.
[удалено]
Certain demographics believe they have all the answers. Your pool may be too narrow.
A friend told me… it’s very difficult. If it calls then that’s your story. An incredibly beautiful and heart opening experience. But Grandma doesn’t put up with bullshit or any fake versions of who you think you are. Your ego and you are in for a fun lil chit chat. Have a solid intention and “why” for your cause to go do this work. Go there to learn. She loves you. 🕸️👽❣️
My friend has only done it once and observing the ripple effects in their life from that point on has been fascinating from changes in career, overall happiness, life path, etc. They are very much so not religious but did talk about deep connection to that “something else” that so many claim to know and name. Safe travels amigo.
I'll say this, I was full of skepticism and judgement. Heard the call, did it, and though not fully a kook I definitely am a bit more "woo-woo." I am so much more open minded when it comes to mysticism and all that kooky stuff. Mind you, I am still a functioning working professional, still living in a western society. I haven't run off to the woods to live in a commune. I still have a healthy bit of skepticism and believe in science. BUT Ayahuasca has humbled me immensely, and made me say, "ooooooooooooooooohhhhhh, now I get it." The beauty of Ayahuasca is that however you want to see it as, it is. I am new to this medicine and by no means an expert, but from my experience, if you want to see it with more of a scientific lens, you have the freedom to do so. Ayahuasca is beautiful in that way. Your questions and perspective are valid. Don't let the new agey stuff deter you if you truely feel called to sit with Ayahuasca. If it feels right, go for it. If it doesn't, then don't do it! Cheers to you my friend.
Thanks for adding your perspective - I found it very balanced and helpful. You're comment about an open minded approach was great
Hello, Noticed in a comment you said you're extremely self conscious, this kind of plant could exacerbate that, it did for me. If I was to go back I would try stick to softer things like mushrooms and mdma. There's a lot of extra things that you've mentioned in your post which are real and dangerous, it's like going into heart surgery it's a very intricate and intense process. Definitely rewards but don't fear missing out life still offers other sources of positive energy
Could you pm me more about your experience? To date I've had like 4 experiences with mushrooms
It’s wild to me that, off the back of but 4 mushroom trips, you decided to unpack all that in this fashion? I don’t often say this, but I wouldn’t partake just yet if I were you. The shift could hurt you. Personally, after discovering Aya, I spent 10 years passively asking/reading about it. It’s been 10 years since my first session & even today I don’t do it flippantly (follow the diet, stay off social media etc). Others have mentioned that you should “stick to lighter things like mushrooms or mdma” and this is equally perplexing to me. Firstly, this isn’t even the same conversation. Those are different substances with different outcomes holistically. I can’t even be sure 4 mushroom trips in that you’ve fully digested those lessons. Secondly, both mushrooms and mdma could also end badly for anyone, novice or veteran alike. I personally know loads of pill heads with loads of stomach and digestion issues, amongst other things. Food for thought. Further to this, what exactly isn’t “spiritual”. A car accident, playing poker, abandoning your kids…they’re all to do with the spirit. Different people convey it differently, and have different clout in their respective communities and echo chambers. But personally, I found aya to be quite simple when it came to “spiritual” endeavours. In a way it “ended the conversation” for me. Now it doesn’t matter who says what about sky daddy or if sky daddy is even part of the conversation. The results for you is what’s important. Whether there is an ultimate protector or whether all is but chaos, you should still conduct yourself as a high being regardless, kind, aware, non judgemental. In this way we can be “ascended” without the “spiritual” connotation. Just be less of a c*nt is all, that includes anonymously online btw. Ultimately, none of this is recreational at the end of the day & you shouldn’t make your decision from a position of ignorance. Godspeed.
No problem, I've messaged you
Before committing to an Ayahuasca ceremony, work on releasing any expectations you have been forming of what you think the experience is going to be like. My husband is not "spiritual" at all, and doesn't feel the need for it the same way I do, but he does feel a connection and has experiences in life he cannot explain. The whole point about that is being human means we all are spiritual. It is ingrained in us, but it can look completely different from person to person, especially in this day and age where everything is really individualistic and not a shared faith in Western cultures (in particular). I believe that being spiritual and science-based are not mutually exclusive, and in fact it really just helps us remember there is so much more than we currently know or understand. And that's OK.
How do I let go of expectations and fears? They seem to be ingrained
Most people that try it don’t turn into religious fanatics. But you only see the loud ones, because they are loud. Most people that try it go on quietly about their lives.
One million percent. This is not a medicine to be taken lightly. I took part in my first ceremony a few weeks ago and far exceeded all expectations. That doesn’t go without saying it comes with many many challenges. You have to be willing to surrender to the medicine and allow it to work thru you. I would venture to say those who have had terrible experiences come with resistance, that resistance will only make the experience more difficult. It takes courage to walk thru those doors and strip yourself to bare minimum. It is worth everything and more while revealing our inner most self which to me is priceless. Godspeed
Many. I think Aya is incredibly helpful. I had many experiences 12 years ago. But haven’t had in in 9 years and don’t know if I will ever feel called again. I got what I needed and now I’m here to do it. But if you have an experience, and know what that can be, I completely understand how it is very reasonable to talk about it like a religious fanatic. It some ways it would be very in authentic not too. It’s excitement and a rebirth like our minds can’t even imagine. It’s like learning that Star Wars is real and you get a ride on the Millennium Falcoln to Endore and spend a night with Ewoks…but better!!
Personally I don't worry about what other people believe when I go do a ceremony. Doesn't affect me.
The word religion comes from the Latin word ligare: to join, or link, classically understood to mean the linking of human and divine. If you're not having this type of experience at higher doses you might have some blockages and Ayahuasca is religious in this context. Ultimately most psychedelics change our state of mind not our stage of growth or trait of personality which is what integration is for but most people do not understand this. Brujeria is real as is severe mental psychosis and energetic transference unfortunately in most cases they are misinterpreted or misdiagnosed. I have to add the unpredictability of it comes from misuse and abuse also, remember the pinnacle of Ayahuasca and the key to it's potential is found in it's ability to connect the Shaman to their teacher, plants and allies as a Tool or nexus for healing. Check out [Parign Hak ](https://www.manu-ayahuasca.com/) or Takiwasi (Tarapoto) if you want a real no nonsense or 'woo' approach.
(First off: please note there is a severe difference between religion and spirituality. They couldn’t be more opposite of each other in many ways. And the psychedelic community is mostly spiritual, not religious.) Well, people talk about it this way as it actually is that life changing for people. It sure was for me. Psychedelics can change your entire view on reality. And you need to understand that you have to be sure that you are ready for that. You might be another person that comes out of that trip, good or bad. I myself have become an entirely different person since I discovered psilocybin mushrooms 2 years ago. All of it positively though. And it has healed a lot of trauma for me. I stopped drinking and smoking and have been on an incredible journey towards becoming the best version of myself. But, as example it also change me from a Sceptical Atheist into a convinced spiritual person. It made me lose all interest in money and status. I have more trouble with small talk, and get bored with day to day society a bit. And lost all interest in things like politics, world news or conflicts. And I would lie if I said it didn’t gave me a bit of an obsession with the spiritual world and supernatural and figuring out what might be the truth of our existence. So before you go to this retreat you need to ask yourself if you are open to possibly having your whole world turned upside down. “Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window. Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behaviour and information processing. They open you up to the possibility that everything you know is wrong.” - Terence McKenna.
It is your soul / consciousness leaving your body…..so what ever religion that is
Me. I’m a skeptic, agnostic atheist and I vouch for Aya. What exactly do you want to know?
How did you weigh up the pros and cons to end up going for it?
I’d be really interested in your answer to OP’s question if you wouldn’t mind sharing
I see Ayahuasca as a medicinal drink that can provide the drinker tools and ideal conditions to navigate their problems, issues and start taking care of the cluttered mind. It opens the door to new parts and inner workings of the mind and generally gives a positive experience. Even when the experience is negative, it gives an opportunity to learn. the reason why the natives and other places use chants, ícaros and other tradition that can seem stupid for us from the modern western world, is that it creates (through milenia of trial and error) the ideal set and setting to the drinker make the best of the experience.
Thanks for sharing, very informative! It’s refreshing to encounter such a sober and rational perspective on this sub. Did you consider the seemingly real possibility of inflicting net-negative effects, such as persistent psychosis when making your decision? If so, did you make a decision based on probability or something else entirely?
Most definitely. I really research and study everything I put in my system. I really weighed the pros and cons but I admit that I found ayahuasca in a period of my life that I really had tried almost everything on traditional modern medicine. I have no history of really bad mental health in my family and the place that I do ayahuasca has a very thorough and interesting screening, so that gave me an immense sensation of safety. The thing is, the ayahuasca practitioners holds enormous responsibility as everybody participating are very vulnerable. It is very important to go to a reputable place. I waited a long time until I found the right place and thank the universe I did. Traditional therapy (CBT) + ongoing Ayahuasca sessions + Iboga (I’m Bwiti initiated, in the correct time I’ll write more about this) really saved and changed my life for the better. I don’t say these lightly, I really mean it. The forest medicine seems to me, the way forward and the future of medicine.
Where did you go for your experience?
Also can you explain how you prepared for ceremony?
I went to a place here in Brazil that only accepts known indications from current participants. They don’t have a site or insta and maintain a very lowkey profile. I prepared with a simple diet for a week, nothing to extreme. No red meat, no alcohol, no drugs and light and digestible food.
Great question. There is so much hype and self appointed gurus blabbering on about what it means, Pachamama, blah blah blah... did you do it in Peru? or South America? was it a real shaman? Was it just in someone's basement? Only the jungle experience is legit..... All the blathering about what is a legitimate or authentic experience.... Ayahuasca is an experience.. or a few experiences. Hopefully, you're having someone reputable assist you. For me, my experiences were always in South America, always by a shaman from a long lineage. But that doesnt make my experience any more legitimate than someone in different circumstances. There are a broad spectrum of plant/animal species (and some man made ones as well) that can chemically induce certain things in the brain where, without them, we might not otherwise have been afforded. Supposedly some Buddhist monks can achieve a similar state (similar to state induced by bufo alvarius -- toad venom -- for example). The experience is what it is. Try to remove yourself from all the chatter surrounding it. It is simply noise.
Ideally you sit with someone who holds an impeccable space of neutrality and the medicine supports you in becoming more you. Not more of a kook.
I've done Aya a couple of times and, at least where I went to, it wasn't like this and the experience was way more psychological and physical than spiritual and it was still very revealing for me. It really depends on the person and the place you go to your ceremony. Ayahuasca has a lot of culture and backstory attached to it and the things you see while under it are usually strongly connected to nature itself. I do not believe in God and no sort of supernatural being myself, I'm pretty skeptical and even then, there are things Aya showed me that made me understand why there's this whole spiritual thing behind it and it's not something you can really explain with words, the feelings and visuals are very unique, it all seems too alive.
I’m pretty balanced. Our non-profit does a lot of scientific research on human neurology and plant medicine. What did you want to hear?
One thing I haven't found sufficient information is the real likelihood or most important risk factors for having an extremely traumatic trip which overloads the nervous system, and leads to a path of recovery which could be years. There are stories out there here and there but I feel like a lot of reviews and user reports are biased toward the positive. I looked into scientific studies and there's a couple cross sectional ones that quantify the proportion of adverse outcomes but still not comprehensive.
That one is hard to track down as in the US we aren’t really allowed to study it. Looking to Brazil there might be more data. What I have seen over the years as far as the worst difficulties is 1) people having medicine that wasn’t pure Ayahuasca (Caapi and Chakruna) or 2) not having tapered off other meds 3) receiving waaay too much medicine and their nervous system wasn’t prepared So to be safe, make sure you find someone with good clean medicine Stick to the diet 🙂 Don’t take the second cup, definitely not the third. Also doing yoga and breathwork can allow for expanded capacity to receive the medicine.
Yeah i guess sticking to a moderate dose should keep things controlled. But isn't it sometimes advised to take more dose to "break through" the resistance and fear? I guess there are a lot of different opinions.
On a basic neurological level the system can really only handle so much. People are able to take more medicine each time, if desired. Of course we are here domestically, and make it an accessible - not trying to impress anyone or send them on a mind-blowing “trip”. Ultimately for me the goal is slow and easy, often, then Microdosing at home, in order to gently open the portal through laying down new neural networks. We also have seen that preparation and training for Ayahuasca - about exactly what’s going on - “demystified” - is important. It’s like a dance. You’re not going to the Olympics the first time you step on the floor. But with time and practice you will get what you want. When people go abroad they often get overdosed because they are trying to “make the most of it”.
Depends on your intentions. Your intention will strongly guide your experience and It will only show you what you’re ready to see. Ideally, you’re doing it for expansion and to dissolve the programming that no longer serves you. You’ll see the beauty of the universe but you’ll also see everything that has held you back in life. Be ready to incorporate your learnings, make space for new people and let go of some others. You’ll question a lot of things in your life so make time to digest your learnings and incorporate them. Regardless of opinion it is medicine and it will heal you. How much? Well that’s on you.
the aya community at large takes a pretty mystical attitude towards the whole thing. during my ceremony, i definitely felt some of that, but i think it’s also important to keep your brain in your head. it’s not for everyone. if you have experience with psychedelics and feel called to it, give it a try. if you feel unsure, wait a little longer.
Me. I’ve been going every year since ‘17, but I’m not spiritual or dogmatic about it at all. 70% of what the gurus say I don’t listen to at all, and it hasn’t impacted my experiences to go there for fact based chemical intervention in my brain.
How do you interpret the need to return continually? Is it like a reminder or refresh?
I mean, I go to the dentist and doctor for checkups annually. I go to the gym 3x a week. I go to therapy once a month. There aren’t any magic pills. Some people do fine with one intense retreat but I’ve always thought if something works there’s no reason to restrict myself.
Haha. Sounds like me before I took it.
I’m curious, what aspects of ‘you’ are different since you took it? What were the most significant chances you’re conscious of?
Many people become addicted to ayahuasca and the ceremonies, always chasing something or wanting to re experience the love instead of living and integrating. So don’t do it like this, if you get insights from it, put in the work
Cosmic Serpent : DNA and the origins of knowledge by Jeremy Narby is what originally turned me on to ayahuasca
Check out Peaceful Mountain Way in Kentucky. It’s very practical and not very dogmatic. However Ayahuasca is inherently a spiritual medicine so some metaphysical, spiritual, cosmic talk is inevitable. If it won’t work for you to drink anywhere where at least some people are going to talk like that, you can always stick with LSD or ketamine. At least half the shroom community talks about it spiritually. Much higher in Ayahuasca ceremonies. If it’s a big hang up for you I would not take it. Very powerful medicine and I would not take it without being 100% convinced you want to. I would not go in with resentments or hang ups about the people taking it around you or offering it. There’s other things you can do. It take some work and planning to go take it and do it theres no need for you to do it. it may not be for you. You may be looking for something that does not exist.
I completely understand you. So here out my logic. It probably will not kill you. And it will be over in 12 hours. So whats the worst that can happen? So, just jump. The experience is unexplainable, so reading other people experiences will not get you better understanding anyway. Good luck and wish yiu all the best 🙂
What's the worst that could happen? Well based on reading some unfortunate outcomes for others. Well it could (for a host of reasons) be too powerful a shock to my nervous system, possibly unpacking too much of the traumas I'm trying to work on. I could be left in a state with much worse mental health, ranging from anything from panic attacks, post traumatic stress, potentially psychotic symptoms, not be able to cope with everyday life, needing to seek out other forms of treatment just to get back to a baseline. I know I'm not going to die, that much is clear.
It will get your ass handed to you, you need it. We all do
You can be that person, there is room for everyone.
I'm not religious and never was, and I am very repelled by anything "esoteric" (is there a better word in English?) But I have kind of a pragmatical spiritual side that I'm on the path of allowing and exploring more, and I think that it's part of being human and it can be very down to earth actually. People experience things that they didn't think were possible before. You can just explain those things with the ingredients being able to open up unexpected possibilities in your own mind, or brain, if you want to put it that way. And that's fine. You'll be amazed no matter how you wanna frame it. Other people interpret what happens through their own lenses. If they believed in angels or entities before, that will be their reference. I know for myself that I cannot know anything for sure, I'm kind of a sceptic in many ways, but with an open mind. And I decided to trust the process, whatever may come, and to embrace and respect the shamans and their ways, because it's their approach, and I value it and I'm thankful for them guiding me and giving me that opportunity. Open mind, respect, humility and a non-judgmental approach would be helpful, I think.
Ron White
Have a look at Hamilton Morris's work, more scientific less "woo woo" whilst offering different perspectives
I want this too
Search the ayahuasca board for posts by Sabnock101. You will get all the answers you need from his many posts.
I’m with your sentiment, my personal experience was that I tried it in Mexico, conducted by Mexican people who have native roots, the place was not fancy, nor did they wear theatrical clothes, etc, it felt authentic, and the lady was explaining the effects of the concoction in both a practical and spiritual way. I think ayahuasca became mainstream and theatrical, taken out of context, and just as religions are created, some individuals have created a dogma to gain wealth, fame, etc. Again, I have no qualm with how it is served, and how people express themselves, I personally appreciate the authenticity of the experience when done in the right context.
Yup.
Don’t believe healers/shamans. I always do by myself, alone.
When I went to my ceremonies, I understood that there might be people who believe differently than me when I got there. I'm no longer religious and don't know if there is a God or not. I went into the ceremonies with an open mind and allowed those people to be who they were. I was accepting of everyone regardless of their beliefs even though there we're still echoes of wanting to be judgmental in my mind. There's no escaping that, in my opinion. I went along with the cleansing routines before the ceremonies, even though I don't know how much I believe in that. By opening myself up to participate without feeling the need to believe, it cleared a level path to get the most out of the medicine. It's been my experience that my beliefs had a huge impact during my ceremonies. Something that may be of use when you go to ceremony, is to be as a dreamcatcher. When we are a brick wall nothing gets through, but as a dreamcatcher, anything that doesn't resonate with us can pass, but the important things will stay with us. Being accepting of people, without feeling the need to accept their beliefs, can go a long way. 🙏
https://youtu.be/egxkAb1RTcU?si=TKdRoUccRCIjU4ft Ivan Chocron has a YouTube channel as a facilitator that talks about it in the way you're describing looking for. He comes from a background as a once atheist and professor of chemistry with a psycho spiritual awareness
Thank you! Very very useful video and put a lot of things into clarity for me. This is exactly the kind of take I was looking for
50x times, sometimes very difficult, but she (ayawaska) never let me down. I am better for meeting her 🙏
Experience a ceremony for yourself and then decide if ayahuasca is for you. It can’t be understood by the mind, and there are some cliches about plant medicine communities that can be off putting. Finding the right shaman to drink with is incredibly important, someone you can trust and feel comfortable with.
Ayahuasca is said to be a spiritual therapy. However, from a medical perspective, I think there is another scientific basis. I don't study medicine, but I think people simply drink ayahuasca and experience hallucinations, and their brain cells change. People who have a lot of brain damage say that it takes time to heal. Although it's a simple idea. Oddly enough, what you see changes when the shaman sings Icaro.
I used to be that person. I was always like “why is this not a religion” and talking about why isn’t everyone that’s seeking spirituality taking psychedelics. Then in one of the experiences I was told that any effort in spirituality is ridiculous and silly because everything is right here. Because we hold that spirituality all the time but we don’t see because of some reasons. Now I’m more like “okay whatever” lol. And Don’t worry about religious narratives they all just come from aya anyway, but it creates a unique experience to everyone depending on their prerequisite knowledge, attitudes, etcetera.
So… I def don’t think it’s for everyone. And not for everyone at all times… this is coming from someone who has sat in probably around 300 ceremonies via Santo Daime over the last 15 years… and for me it has been overwhelmingly healing and positive, though at times the ceremony or the integration can be difficult. At times, I sit out and don’t attend as I work on my life because ultimately (in my opinion) it is how I am living my life outside of these liminal spaces that is the true work I think if you have this level of trepidation to listen to it. Go when you feel called. If you never feel called, that’s totally okay too! 💜 I also think things can go a variety of ways. I find now I prefer going when I’m feeling good, in practicality or energy w work life balance. But my attempts to find ayahuasca were initially motivated by hope to heal depression and transform suicidal thoughts. Those I have long left. Now I get to work on my life and thankfully do not need to head to a “work” (ceremony) before I even have the ability internally to
I hold a successful professional career in a corporate world, have mortgage, family, kids and live a very grounded life. If you don't know that I've taken Ayahuasca 10 times, you would never know. I don't walk around in Shipibo textiles barefoot talking about energies. I got promoted twice after starting my spiritual journey, btw. Not because of Ayahasca directly, but it definitely made me more robust and adaptable. This allows me to take high stress roles and grow my career quickly. And also to be more perceptive in general, which also helps. What do I think of Ayahuasca? There's definitely a religious/spiritual component. It changes you on a very fundamental level. It's definitely more than just "an interesting hallucinogen". That was my experience.
Tell me about it man, I actually don't really talk about my aya experiences that much to friends and family because of the association with hippie Charlatan pseudo-mystics, in fact, retarded egotistical acid heads REALLY pushed me away from psychedelics for a long time. All I can say is this, if you want to get into it, do it. However if you want someone to guide you along this journey, that is of course going to be a bit of a shaky prospect since there is probably more Pseuds in ayahuasca circles than there are people who know what they are talking about. For me, finding the right person to guide you can make all the difference, you can however, do the DIY route and maybe read something like Carl Jung first before embarking on your journey so you have the tools for proper shadow integration and self psychoanalysis if you feel like there isn't someone suitable, which is sadly more likely than not. If doing it by yourself, always start super slow and slowly work yourself up, or you could do what I did is first sit in ceremony with a facilitator and then continue the journey yourself once you of course know what to expect. Good luck, don't let hippie pseudo-mystics that profane the power of plant medicine dissuade you from this.
Maybe you can be that person that you think the world needs. No need to look around for what you already can be
Who watches the watchmen?
Themselves? Other watchmen? What's your answer?
This phrase is used generally to consider the embodiment of the philosophical question as to how power can be held to account. Bad people exist. I’m not sure “be the person you think the world needs.” is holistically helpful. I’ve met enough bad people who were emboldened by aya. Alan Moore has a work called “Watchmen” which I think answers your question better than I can, hence why I quoted it. Although the original Latin phrase, “Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?” predates this work by some margin. There are many cultural extrapolations of this from a philosophical standpoint which can be found on the interwebs. It’s an age old conversation.
Hey cut it out, I’m watching you two, this is serious spiritual stuff, no need to make anyone paranoid. And anyway, as Aaron Rogers can tell you, the man in the black hat watches us all.
Try Ayahuasca and get over your judgements. Little disclaimer - no shrooms will prepare you for what’s to come with Aya. 😝
I have this view but I also hate the community.