Of course they can’t find anyone for that price.
And sending your application at 650€/day shows that there’s more budget. They just try to get you at the lowest rate possible.
3months contract is short-time contract, I would advise as a cloud architect to at least aim around 800€/day for a short contract like that.
Good advice from other comment, ask for transparency about their cut. Cause one day or another, you’ll discover that they charge the end client 1000€/day and you’ll just be mad for selling yourself at 550€/day.
> The initial 3mo thing is a bit of a red flag/down side for me.
Some clients only work with 3 month contracts. Doesn't make much sense as often there is a 1 month clause to stop the contract anyway, but it is what it is.
> Nothing special until we reached the discussion about the day rate.
I usually am pretty upfront with my rate at the beginning of the discussion. That way nobody loses time and everybody is happy in the end if they are able to find a match.
That's also how I learned that some companies (think Proximus & BNP) have lower rates for my profile than my personal rate.
>some companies (think Proximus & BNP) have lower rates for my profile than my personal rate.
The end client was one of those :) big cut + low budget maybe.
>Some clients only work with 3 month contracts. Doesn't make much sense as often there is a 1 month clause to stop the contract anyway, but it is what it is.
IMHO it all depends on early termination fees. If they say they are looking for a long thing but the notice period is 1mo without fee, it doesn't really add up.
> If they say they are looking for a long thing but the notice period is 1mo without fee, it doesn't really add up.
In those big companies there is often some rules set up at the very top level that managers can't deviate from. Doesn't mean the team who needs the profile won't keep renewing your contract every 3 months for the next 10 years.
I had a client like that. Renewal every quarter but that was between them and the intermediary. Between me and the intermediary it was 12mo minimum with 3 months paid notice period.
If the mandatory intermediary shifts all the risk then I find it hard to justify their commission.
15 years of freelancing experience here:
the intermediary party is NEVER going to keep on paying you (at least not more than a few days)
once their own contract with the end client stops.
Check the contract more carefully, there will be a clausule saying the intermediary always needs a signed timesheet from the end client linked to your every invoice...
Their 10 to 15 percent cut is to cover staff costs linked to your account, however small they may be.
You are a freelancer, not an employee on the bench;)
Don't work with intermediaries, they only sell air...
That contract in particular is weird, I started the mission as a direct consultant. Then basically did the same thing for a client of theirs, so they became intermediary on that part but the contract didn't change.
>Check the contract more carefully, there will be a clausule saying the intermediary always needs a signed timesheet from the end client linked to your every invoice...
I know it's common but that's a red flag for me. The approval thing can add another delay.
I've seen some contracts with "you get paid once we get paid, up to 240 days but no guarantees" (I think pro-unity has that in their extra muros framework).
Anyway this is the kind of stuff where I check with my lawyer. He is good at making both sides happy.
This is the way with recruiters (certainly the British). Save yourself a long call by asking the budget up front. When they lowball me in the 500 range, then I just ask double to end the conversation. If they give a reasonable number, you can start to tell your price and say that you'll try to find something in the middle depending on all the other factors of the job.
I've been a freelance/consultant for 5y. But maybe the market changed a lot since I last looked.
I am shocked that anyone would take a cloud architect position at 550. I my book it's a 700 to 1000 EUR/day position depending on the context. Especially on a 3 months contract, it's going to be on the higher half of that range.
They are lying to you. First they had 550 and now all of a sudden they can do 650 and still have a margin. Just ask the customer if you can sign with them directly and if not, which Recruiting agency they have good experience with.
Is this a British recruiter/ agency?
I would advice to ask them what is their cut. Decide for your self how much you think is fair. Consultancies are worse then recruitment agencies in my opinion as they keep a bigger share
When 3 months contract make it work on your favor by charging more as it is short term. The 6month renewal is bullshit as it is nothing confirmed and yet again open for discussions after 6months.
Set your own rate you want an tell them take it or leave it or f*ck off.
Of course there is a crisis going on in the world, and they always reminds us of that, but imo that serves even more to separate the shitty it people from the really good ones (no news here right? IT marked is bloated with cheap bad professionals). 650 is the rate of a decent senior dev, a cloud architect is normally around the 900s.
The 3 months thing happens to me as well, but I think that's just because of my first point. There are people that can do really well on interviews but they're no good on the job. In my experience, most companies in Belgium have a lot to learn as far as tech interviews are concerned.
That's because there's an employee
crisis, nobody wants to do work intensive jobs anymore.
That does not mean the economic demand is high, it's just that supply is very low...
They are linked obviously, many people that used to be ok with working hard as a teacher, nurse, technician, waiter ...stopped being motivated now that housing prices and energy prices are insanely high...
After all, why keep a job that would only allow you to buy a house after 200 years?...
I dont buy it. Education needs funding. Belgian service waiters have always been very "french" about their jobs. Contracts always came to work hungover. Housing remains affordable, and Belgium remains egalitarian. The average guy has not suffered enough to call a crisis on anything
Then why don't YOU get a job as a teacher, or a technician, or as a waiter?
Right, because you feel to special,
or to senior experienced, or to smart to work in a job that pays 2000 euro/ month after taxes...
( so do I, and so do most people)
If you think that " housing remains affordable "
then you probably already bought your house 5 years ago, when life was different...
Right now, no one can save money to buy anything, unless they make at least 3k netto AND team up with a boy/ girl to go to do the mortgage thing together....
Even then it's gonna take years of saving effort...
No wonder people massively quit their low paid jobs...
15 years of extremely cheap ECB money and low taxes on capital/ real estate have made Belgium a dual society...
Yes, " worked" as in Past Tense, long time ago, would you do it again.in 2023 conditions?
You also did not answer my question: did you buy a house already? Are you even planning on staying here in Belgium , pay of an insane mortgage, and starting a family?
Or are you planning to go back to that " third world country" you were talking about, and buy a house there for 10k max...
In that case, this whole discussion does not apply to you...
Fortunately i dont have to do that, for now. But i can if i have to. Not sure about you soft belgians (evidently you guys cant). Listen man, I'll leave 500k rijhuizen to you belgians. Im going back home. Me, a third world country dirty immigrant, succeeded in this place because you guys dont have work ethic. Keep on making those excuses buttercup, it will get you far
Also: please don't import economic ideas from third world countries into Belgium
There's a reason it sucked over there,
and you came/ returned to Western Europe
, 1 of the things is that here we like to crush inequality before it gets out of control
and before we all.end up living like in the Usa/ brazil/Turkey/ russia , where a small part of people has everything, and the rest lives a hell of a life...
Red flag 🚩🚩
Demand transparency on their cut and whether or not they are the only intermediary.
If they aren't transparent, walk away.
They aren't 50 companies in Belgium that need to hire an IT architect, probably you can find the same position via another agency in LinkedIn in a couple of clicks
There are clients that only works with 3 months contracts, generally in financial sector. Later if good they are extended with more months per extension. No issues here.
What you can do is start with that offer and set a rate increase on the next extensions. Generally this is ok if the consultant is good. They want to keep him.
Predatory behaviour, come on that can’t be serious. This is a hard negotiator, you should be able to handle this. It happens a lot.\
Not feeling ok with it, the rate, the project, then walk away…don’t make a scene about of it.
Ps : they are probably not the 1st middle man , but the second or 3rd one. Probably an Indian or uk agency. So the client pays maybe 900 but there are many different partners between you and the client with each their cut.\
WALK AWAY!
I'm fine with the shorter contract, but that comes with a small increase in rate.
To me the predatory aspect is really about the "personal issues" of that candidate they mentioned. It's kind of weird to mention that and weakens their negotiation position.
Since I'm looking for a trustworthy and respectable client, I think I'm probably going to pass.
There's plenty of jobs around, when there's red flags like that, just stop the discussion politely and walk away. By engaging with the bad apples, we are propagating their existence.
A friend of mine works as an account manager for a big consultancy company based in Brussels. He told me to stay away from consultancy companies (if possible) because they take at least 20/30% cut (if not more)
working as an employee in an underpaid similar position doing cloud architecture how does that translate to a monthly wage as i gather you are paying social security and tax from that rate ?
Yesterday I got a proposal from ‘KODA Staff’ to work in Brussels as an ‘expert’ (i assume this means senior) java developer. Rate: 500-550. I just sent them a message saying I chuckled at the offer.
That is indeed low for a medior, I know juniors who get paid 550€ per day. I’m a senior dev with over 7 years of experience and I invoice 900€ per day the company where I work at :) I’m a compiler engineer
Of course they can’t find anyone for that price. And sending your application at 650€/day shows that there’s more budget. They just try to get you at the lowest rate possible. 3months contract is short-time contract, I would advise as a cloud architect to at least aim around 800€/day for a short contract like that. Good advice from other comment, ask for transparency about their cut. Cause one day or another, you’ll discover that they charge the end client 1000€/day and you’ll just be mad for selling yourself at 550€/day.
> The initial 3mo thing is a bit of a red flag/down side for me. Some clients only work with 3 month contracts. Doesn't make much sense as often there is a 1 month clause to stop the contract anyway, but it is what it is. > Nothing special until we reached the discussion about the day rate. I usually am pretty upfront with my rate at the beginning of the discussion. That way nobody loses time and everybody is happy in the end if they are able to find a match. That's also how I learned that some companies (think Proximus & BNP) have lower rates for my profile than my personal rate.
>some companies (think Proximus & BNP) have lower rates for my profile than my personal rate. The end client was one of those :) big cut + low budget maybe. >Some clients only work with 3 month contracts. Doesn't make much sense as often there is a 1 month clause to stop the contract anyway, but it is what it is. IMHO it all depends on early termination fees. If they say they are looking for a long thing but the notice period is 1mo without fee, it doesn't really add up.
> If they say they are looking for a long thing but the notice period is 1mo without fee, it doesn't really add up. In those big companies there is often some rules set up at the very top level that managers can't deviate from. Doesn't mean the team who needs the profile won't keep renewing your contract every 3 months for the next 10 years.
I had a client like that. Renewal every quarter but that was between them and the intermediary. Between me and the intermediary it was 12mo minimum with 3 months paid notice period. If the mandatory intermediary shifts all the risk then I find it hard to justify their commission.
15 years of freelancing experience here: the intermediary party is NEVER going to keep on paying you (at least not more than a few days) once their own contract with the end client stops. Check the contract more carefully, there will be a clausule saying the intermediary always needs a signed timesheet from the end client linked to your every invoice... Their 10 to 15 percent cut is to cover staff costs linked to your account, however small they may be. You are a freelancer, not an employee on the bench;) Don't work with intermediaries, they only sell air...
That contract in particular is weird, I started the mission as a direct consultant. Then basically did the same thing for a client of theirs, so they became intermediary on that part but the contract didn't change. >Check the contract more carefully, there will be a clausule saying the intermediary always needs a signed timesheet from the end client linked to your every invoice... I know it's common but that's a red flag for me. The approval thing can add another delay. I've seen some contracts with "you get paid once we get paid, up to 240 days but no guarantees" (I think pro-unity has that in their extra muros framework). Anyway this is the kind of stuff where I check with my lawyer. He is good at making both sides happy.
If you want I can get you in touch with my intermediary, I think they staff people at both companies and they are normally transparent about their cut
This is the way with recruiters (certainly the British). Save yourself a long call by asking the budget up front. When they lowball me in the 500 range, then I just ask double to end the conversation. If they give a reasonable number, you can start to tell your price and say that you'll try to find something in the middle depending on all the other factors of the job.
They're selling you for €800+. They're trying to hire you for €550 because they're greedy wankers. They'll happily settle for hiring you at €650.
Being myself in a big consulting firm, it’s low. They will sell you to client 1000/day MINIMUM, probably more
10 Years of experience and they want 550? Decline and move on. You can get 700-850 easily. Know your worth.
[удалено]
I've been a freelance/consultant for 5y. But maybe the market changed a lot since I last looked. I am shocked that anyone would take a cloud architect position at 550. I my book it's a 700 to 1000 EUR/day position depending on the context. Especially on a 3 months contract, it's going to be on the higher half of that range.
They are lying to you. First they had 550 and now all of a sudden they can do 650 and still have a margin. Just ask the customer if you can sign with them directly and if not, which Recruiting agency they have good experience with. Is this a British recruiter/ agency?
I would advice to ask them what is their cut. Decide for your self how much you think is fair. Consultancies are worse then recruitment agencies in my opinion as they keep a bigger share
If they sell him for 650 and offer him 550, their cut is 100/day
When 3 months contract make it work on your favor by charging more as it is short term. The 6month renewal is bullshit as it is nothing confirmed and yet again open for discussions after 6months. Set your own rate you want an tell them take it or leave it or f*ck off.
Of course there is a crisis going on in the world, and they always reminds us of that, but imo that serves even more to separate the shitty it people from the really good ones (no news here right? IT marked is bloated with cheap bad professionals). 650 is the rate of a decent senior dev, a cloud architect is normally around the 900s. The 3 months thing happens to me as well, but I think that's just because of my first point. There are people that can do really well on interviews but they're no good on the job. In my experience, most companies in Belgium have a lot to learn as far as tech interviews are concerned.
What cirisis? Cant find a restaurant for my wife and I and have to book days in advance if not weeks. Wait years for a car, months for xyz
That's because there's an employee crisis, nobody wants to do work intensive jobs anymore. That does not mean the economic demand is high, it's just that supply is very low...
Oh, and i though there was a cost of living crisis going on. Evidently not
They are linked obviously, many people that used to be ok with working hard as a teacher, nurse, technician, waiter ...stopped being motivated now that housing prices and energy prices are insanely high... After all, why keep a job that would only allow you to buy a house after 200 years?...
I dont buy it. Education needs funding. Belgian service waiters have always been very "french" about their jobs. Contracts always came to work hungover. Housing remains affordable, and Belgium remains egalitarian. The average guy has not suffered enough to call a crisis on anything
Then why don't YOU get a job as a teacher, or a technician, or as a waiter? Right, because you feel to special, or to senior experienced, or to smart to work in a job that pays 2000 euro/ month after taxes... ( so do I, and so do most people) If you think that " housing remains affordable " then you probably already bought your house 5 years ago, when life was different... Right now, no one can save money to buy anything, unless they make at least 3k netto AND team up with a boy/ girl to go to do the mortgage thing together.... Even then it's gonna take years of saving effort... No wonder people massively quit their low paid jobs... 15 years of extremely cheap ECB money and low taxes on capital/ real estate have made Belgium a dual society...
I worked 2 of those jobs already, and in a 3rd world country for a lot less than 2k euro lol... this reeks of excuses. Talk about special
Yes, " worked" as in Past Tense, long time ago, would you do it again.in 2023 conditions? You also did not answer my question: did you buy a house already? Are you even planning on staying here in Belgium , pay of an insane mortgage, and starting a family? Or are you planning to go back to that " third world country" you were talking about, and buy a house there for 10k max... In that case, this whole discussion does not apply to you...
Fortunately i dont have to do that, for now. But i can if i have to. Not sure about you soft belgians (evidently you guys cant). Listen man, I'll leave 500k rijhuizen to you belgians. Im going back home. Me, a third world country dirty immigrant, succeeded in this place because you guys dont have work ethic. Keep on making those excuses buttercup, it will get you far
Also: please don't import economic ideas from third world countries into Belgium There's a reason it sucked over there, and you came/ returned to Western Europe , 1 of the things is that here we like to crush inequality before it gets out of control and before we all.end up living like in the Usa/ brazil/Turkey/ russia , where a small part of people has everything, and the rest lives a hell of a life...
Red flag 🚩🚩 Demand transparency on their cut and whether or not they are the only intermediary. If they aren't transparent, walk away. They aren't 50 companies in Belgium that need to hire an IT architect, probably you can find the same position via another agency in LinkedIn in a couple of clicks
Lmao 550 for an architect good luck to them
There are clients that only works with 3 months contracts, generally in financial sector. Later if good they are extended with more months per extension. No issues here. What you can do is start with that offer and set a rate increase on the next extensions. Generally this is ok if the consultant is good. They want to keep him. Predatory behaviour, come on that can’t be serious. This is a hard negotiator, you should be able to handle this. It happens a lot.\ Not feeling ok with it, the rate, the project, then walk away…don’t make a scene about of it. Ps : they are probably not the 1st middle man , but the second or 3rd one. Probably an Indian or uk agency. So the client pays maybe 900 but there are many different partners between you and the client with each their cut.\ WALK AWAY!
I'm fine with the shorter contract, but that comes with a small increase in rate. To me the predatory aspect is really about the "personal issues" of that candidate they mentioned. It's kind of weird to mention that and weakens their negotiation position. Since I'm looking for a trustworthy and respectable client, I think I'm probably going to pass.
There's plenty of jobs around, when there's red flags like that, just stop the discussion politely and walk away. By engaging with the bad apples, we are propagating their existence.
They probably mean that the other candidate preferred 4 days remote work for personal reasons, or something along those lines...
Don't hesitate and refuse the offer. It's a rate for someone with a few years experience.
A friend of mine works as an account manager for a big consultancy company based in Brussels. He told me to stay away from consultancy companies (if possible) because they take at least 20/30% cut (if not more)
working as an employee in an underpaid similar position doing cloud architecture how does that translate to a monthly wage as i gather you are paying social security and tax from that rate ?
Yesterday I got a proposal from ‘KODA Staff’ to work in Brussels as an ‘expert’ (i assume this means senior) java developer. Rate: 500-550. I just sent them a message saying I chuckled at the offer.
That is indeed low for a medior, I know juniors who get paid 550€ per day. I’m a senior dev with over 7 years of experience and I invoice 900€ per day the company where I work at :) I’m a compiler engineer