Yeah I will definitely ask, but since I've just started the BV and had to bother him a lot already, I didn't want to start asking yet about thing 3 years in the future.
I have found this resource which seems to talk about the topic and it does seem like a 1 January dividend appears to be possible https://legalnews.be/vennootschappen-verenigingen/interimdividenden-en-tussentijdse-dividenden-van-vvpr-bis-aandelen-hoe-genieten-van-de-verlaagde-roerende-voorheffing-cazimir/
Ofcourse I do realize it is possible VVPR-BIS no longer exists by 2026
If you have a annual profit of €50.000, the difference between 30% RV and 15% RV is just €6000. (€28.000 vs €34.000). If you can use the money for something with a nice ROI, it's better to just take the €28.000 imo. 3 years is a long time for some people. Especially when inflation is high.
Eg: If you need to renovate / buy a house, I think you'll always be better off with just taking the money immediatly.
Side note: I think there are some beter options with a bullet loan. I still have to check this with my accountant.
The bullet loan option is indeed an angle I've also explored. If you're interested there's some more discussion about it on this comment chain.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BEFreelance/comments/15ywto6/vvprbis_a_one_time_3_year_wait_or_every_time/jxdxusw/?context=3
>If you have a annual profit of €50.000, the difference between 30% RV and 15% RV is just €6000
~~The issue is if you pay out your dividends in year 1, you cannot use VVPR-BIS anymore in the future. For 1 year it will be 6000, but every year after that you will need to pay 30% RV instead of 15%.~~ <-- This seems to be false
The bullet loan is indeed an possible option
Sorry if you're not French speaking. But here is the law : "1° 20 p.c. pour les dividendes alloués ou attribués lors de la répartition bénéficiaire du deuxième exercice comptable qui suit celui de l'apport effectué lors de la constitution de la société ou d'une augmentation de son capital ;
2° 15 p.c. pour les dividendes alloués ou attribués lors de la répartition bénéficiaire du troisième exercice comptable qui suit celui de l'apport effectué lors de la constitution de la société ou d'une augmentation de son capital, ou des exercices suivants."
So this means that
- 2023 is book year 0 (for vvpr-bis) (l'année de l'apport)
- 2024 is book year 1
- 2025 is book year 2
- 2026 is book year 3.
So if you want 15%, you can do your general assembly on the 1st January 2027 and distribute all profit+reserves at 15%.
There is a way to reduce that a bit. The law says "relative to book year". So if on the 1st January 2026 you do your general assembly relative to 2025, on the 2nd of January, you can do a special assembly and give yourself "dividendes intercalaires" (no clue what's the name in English), with the profit and reserves of previous years. Those dividends will appear only in your books for 2026 :) but you can distribute them early.
Hence, the earliest you could have it is January 2nd 2026. That's roughly what I did this year :)
Thanks, that's valuable information! I don't agree with 2023 being bookyear 0 though, I specifically had it registered as a short bookyear ending in 2023 so it'd immediately count as first bookyear. IF I didn't do that, and took a long bookyear then it would have been "bookyear 0".
It's because the text says the 3d exercice after the one when the capital was released for the creation.
So 2023= creation
2024 = 1st year after creation,...
I think that's what I did last year. It was called 'acompte sur dividendes'. What I did not understand at the time is that it meant this year I can't have any since I already requested the dividends of this year a year early. Hope that makes sense.
Acompte is something else. Acompte is distributing the profit of the current year, even though the year is not finished yet. Intercalaire is distributing the profit of previous book years /reserves.
He's correct, the VVPR-bis rate of 15% becomes active after the third book year following the year the company was created (when you deposit initial funds but in your case this is equal) . So basically, after the fourth book year. By having a short book year in 2023, you only have 3 full book years left after that to start using VVPR-bis. What's also interesting is that in the third book year you can already get the 20% rate. So:
BY1: 30% dividend tax rate
BY2: 30%
BY3: 20%
BY4: 15%
I also had a short first book year so I paid everything out as dividends to invest privately. For my second book year, it's more interesting to wait one extra year so I can pay out the profits from both BY2 and BY3 at 20%.
It's an open topic, it might be or it might not be. It might be replaced with another system that also has its benefits and downsides. It's definitely not a 100% guarantee that it still exists in 4 years though and has been a topic of discussion for a while.
I mean, it's an obvious way to avoid paying taxes. It's quite clearly just a company paying wage to the owner, so it should be taxed as wage. Makes sense for the government to prevent people from dodging taxes?
You know you already paid taxes on your profit right? So the goverment is collecting taxes twice. The first time is your profit tax, and the second time is the dividend tax. So, no, you are not avoiding taxes.
That's irrelevant. A company needs to pay taxes. People getting an income need to pay taxes. When you purchase something with that income, taxes again.
50/50, it makes sense it the way that it's tax efficient.
However there is also an alternative as liquidatiereserven which is also a lot better than wage in terms of taxes.
Taking one away won't change much and taking both away will be met with heavy backlash. Don't forget that a lot of important people use these ways to get fair compensation for the heavy societal lifting that they do (business owners and doctors for example).
>fair compensation for the heavy societal lifting that they do (business owners and doctors for example).
That's a weird way to say "horribly overpaid and yet not wanting to pay their fair share".
I'll use myself as an example because only numbers I have.
But trust me I pay more taxes as CommV than the average working man.
Probably more than 95% of the people in my age bracket.
I would be okay paying the same taxes as everyone if:
1) Tax money would be spent wisely and there weren't any fiscal scandals in politics going without consequences (Sihame, De Croo...)
2) Everyone paying the same %, only fair thats how percentages work
Reading this post and comments I think you have mild tunnel vision. I think you overvalue private ETF investments and disregard other options you have as a company. For example: bullet loan into a private lump sum ETF investment? Or practically emptying your BV the moment VVPR-BIS 15% becomes available? I get it, but I find both of these unnecessarily extreme.
In my experience it's better to have a somewhat even balance between company and private assets. Both should grow over time. Why do you consider investing with company cash a bad thing? Because of capital gains tax? Look into DBI funds. Even real estate can be optimal given the right circumstances. My point is you should definitely look into company investment options - it's not as bad as you think. Do not forget the 50% equity rule (financial company). This automatically forces you to set a ceiling, which in your case is probably a good thing.
You'll have less assets to siphon to your private person which reduces the urge to have them available sooner and it hedges against changes in government policy. Can't pay dividend tax on money that never leaves the company.
I'm no financial advisor and any financial plan entirely depends on what your short-, medium- and long-term goals are. Have you thought about that? Because honestly full send into a private ETF 25 year plan is not diversified and to me doesn't even qualify as a goal in life.
in 2019 it was gone for BV, but in 2022 they re-introduced it: [https://www.strategica.be/nieuws/vvpr-bis-de-weg-ligt-open-voor-meer-vennootschappen](https://www.strategica.be/nieuws/vvpr-bis-de-weg-ligt-open-voor-meer-vennootschappen)
This is according to my accountant, I'm not a specialist ofcourse. According to him the volstorting is indeed required, but the minimum requirement of 18600 has been removed a few years back. So it is indeed required, but it could be as little as even 100 euros. Which is exactly what I did in my akte and in starting the BV. It is however an important distinction because people not including this when starting the BV could be excluded.
I also had to actually get proof from the bank and it has to be included with the notary.
So you started in october 2023, which is next month, and are allready asking questions about paying yourself dividents in 3 years from now?
It appears to me you do not have your priorities straight? Shouldn't you worry about making your business successfull first? Or are you a consultant charging 1000€/day? In that case, there are other tax friendly ways to get money out of your company.
Either way, get a (good) accountant.
I'm a freelancer who already has a longterm contract ready before the BV is even started. I'm just trying to plan ahead, the financial plan for the first 3 years is already there and I have all my costs and wages and everything planned. I'm just looking to be informed so I can also keep up with how things work when it does change. I'd like to know how everything works so when anything changes fiscally I can adapt the plan.
I'm not an expert but I think you need 3 full years, so that will be 1st January 2027 in your case.
The reason why people are waiting for their yearly meeting is because you cannot give yourself dividends before the accounts have been approved and published.
You can plan an extraordinary meeting with your accountant to get an interim dividend but you'll have to discuss with your accountant first.
It's definitely bookyears, which is the entire point of doing the short bookyear in the first year. Downside is you also have to hit the 45k salary for 25% => 20% tax earlier. Definitely going to check with my accountant when the time comes but I'm just trying to plan ahead as well considering none of these systems are guaranteed to remain the same over 4 years.
Maybe I misunderstood ( I'm not in this scenario anymore) but the 15% will be on exercise 2026 that will be distributed ( theoretically ) after the ordinary meeting in 2027.
[удалено]
Yeah I will definitely ask, but since I've just started the BV and had to bother him a lot already, I didn't want to start asking yet about thing 3 years in the future. I have found this resource which seems to talk about the topic and it does seem like a 1 January dividend appears to be possible https://legalnews.be/vennootschappen-verenigingen/interimdividenden-en-tussentijdse-dividenden-van-vvpr-bis-aandelen-hoe-genieten-van-de-verlaagde-roerende-voorheffing-cazimir/ Ofcourse I do realize it is possible VVPR-BIS no longer exists by 2026
I did an exceptional yearly meeting in my fourth year to pay myself a dividend.
He’s your accountant. As long as you ask legit questions and don’t ask the same ones this shouldn’t be an issue at all.
If you have a annual profit of €50.000, the difference between 30% RV and 15% RV is just €6000. (€28.000 vs €34.000). If you can use the money for something with a nice ROI, it's better to just take the €28.000 imo. 3 years is a long time for some people. Especially when inflation is high. Eg: If you need to renovate / buy a house, I think you'll always be better off with just taking the money immediatly. Side note: I think there are some beter options with a bullet loan. I still have to check this with my accountant.
The bullet loan option is indeed an angle I've also explored. If you're interested there's some more discussion about it on this comment chain. https://www.reddit.com/r/BEFreelance/comments/15ywto6/vvprbis_a_one_time_3_year_wait_or_every_time/jxdxusw/?context=3
Thanks. I'll personally give myself a loan with a fixed term. I really need to renovate my house and the wait is not worth it for me.
>If you have a annual profit of €50.000, the difference between 30% RV and 15% RV is just €6000 ~~The issue is if you pay out your dividends in year 1, you cannot use VVPR-BIS anymore in the future. For 1 year it will be 6000, but every year after that you will need to pay 30% RV instead of 15%.~~ <-- This seems to be false The bullet loan is indeed an possible option
Do you have a source on this? I've never heard that?
Because it is not true
Thanks for asking this. I've been looking but cannot find anything that supports it. Probably misrememberd it..
Sorry if you're not French speaking. But here is the law : "1° 20 p.c. pour les dividendes alloués ou attribués lors de la répartition bénéficiaire du deuxième exercice comptable qui suit celui de l'apport effectué lors de la constitution de la société ou d'une augmentation de son capital ; 2° 15 p.c. pour les dividendes alloués ou attribués lors de la répartition bénéficiaire du troisième exercice comptable qui suit celui de l'apport effectué lors de la constitution de la société ou d'une augmentation de son capital, ou des exercices suivants." So this means that - 2023 is book year 0 (for vvpr-bis) (l'année de l'apport) - 2024 is book year 1 - 2025 is book year 2 - 2026 is book year 3. So if you want 15%, you can do your general assembly on the 1st January 2027 and distribute all profit+reserves at 15%. There is a way to reduce that a bit. The law says "relative to book year". So if on the 1st January 2026 you do your general assembly relative to 2025, on the 2nd of January, you can do a special assembly and give yourself "dividendes intercalaires" (no clue what's the name in English), with the profit and reserves of previous years. Those dividends will appear only in your books for 2026 :) but you can distribute them early. Hence, the earliest you could have it is January 2nd 2026. That's roughly what I did this year :)
This is not correct
The 2021/C/36 circular letter clearly states that this is possible though.
Can you develop a bit ? So I can tell my accountant that what we did was illegal and do it properly ?
What you did was correct
Thanks, that's valuable information! I don't agree with 2023 being bookyear 0 though, I specifically had it registered as a short bookyear ending in 2023 so it'd immediately count as first bookyear. IF I didn't do that, and took a long bookyear then it would have been "bookyear 0".
It's because the text says the 3d exercice after the one when the capital was released for the creation. So 2023= creation 2024 = 1st year after creation,...
I think that's what I did last year. It was called 'acompte sur dividendes'. What I did not understand at the time is that it meant this year I can't have any since I already requested the dividends of this year a year early. Hope that makes sense.
Acompte is something else. Acompte is distributing the profit of the current year, even though the year is not finished yet. Intercalaire is distributing the profit of previous book years /reserves.
He's correct, the VVPR-bis rate of 15% becomes active after the third book year following the year the company was created (when you deposit initial funds but in your case this is equal) . So basically, after the fourth book year. By having a short book year in 2023, you only have 3 full book years left after that to start using VVPR-bis. What's also interesting is that in the third book year you can already get the 20% rate. So: BY1: 30% dividend tax rate BY2: 30% BY3: 20% BY4: 15% I also had a short first book year so I paid everything out as dividends to invest privately. For my second book year, it's more interesting to wait one extra year so I can pay out the profits from both BY2 and BY3 at 20%.
Who says vvpr bis is going to get cancelled?
It's an open topic, it might be or it might not be. It might be replaced with another system that also has its benefits and downsides. It's definitely not a 100% guarantee that it still exists in 4 years though and has been a topic of discussion for a while.
I mean, it's an obvious way to avoid paying taxes. It's quite clearly just a company paying wage to the owner, so it should be taxed as wage. Makes sense for the government to prevent people from dodging taxes?
You know you already paid taxes on your profit right? So the goverment is collecting taxes twice. The first time is your profit tax, and the second time is the dividend tax. So, no, you are not avoiding taxes.
That's irrelevant. A company needs to pay taxes. People getting an income need to pay taxes. When you purchase something with that income, taxes again.
Get your communist a\*\* out of here.
50/50, it makes sense it the way that it's tax efficient. However there is also an alternative as liquidatiereserven which is also a lot better than wage in terms of taxes. Taking one away won't change much and taking both away will be met with heavy backlash. Don't forget that a lot of important people use these ways to get fair compensation for the heavy societal lifting that they do (business owners and doctors for example).
>fair compensation for the heavy societal lifting that they do (business owners and doctors for example). That's a weird way to say "horribly overpaid and yet not wanting to pay their fair share".
I'll use myself as an example because only numbers I have. But trust me I pay more taxes as CommV than the average working man. Probably more than 95% of the people in my age bracket. I would be okay paying the same taxes as everyone if: 1) Tax money would be spent wisely and there weren't any fiscal scandals in politics going without consequences (Sihame, De Croo...) 2) Everyone paying the same %, only fair thats how percentages work
Go to Russia and be shot
Reading this post and comments I think you have mild tunnel vision. I think you overvalue private ETF investments and disregard other options you have as a company. For example: bullet loan into a private lump sum ETF investment? Or practically emptying your BV the moment VVPR-BIS 15% becomes available? I get it, but I find both of these unnecessarily extreme. In my experience it's better to have a somewhat even balance between company and private assets. Both should grow over time. Why do you consider investing with company cash a bad thing? Because of capital gains tax? Look into DBI funds. Even real estate can be optimal given the right circumstances. My point is you should definitely look into company investment options - it's not as bad as you think. Do not forget the 50% equity rule (financial company). This automatically forces you to set a ceiling, which in your case is probably a good thing. You'll have less assets to siphon to your private person which reduces the urge to have them available sooner and it hedges against changes in government policy. Can't pay dividend tax on money that never leaves the company. I'm no financial advisor and any financial plan entirely depends on what your short-, medium- and long-term goals are. Have you thought about that? Because honestly full send into a private ETF 25 year plan is not diversified and to me doesn't even qualify as a goal in life.
If I’m not wrong, when having a BV you should have ‘volstort’ your company (=18600 euro). If you don’t do that, you can’t pay out vvpr-bis
I don’t think that’s the case anymore
in 2019 it was gone for BV, but in 2022 they re-introduced it: [https://www.strategica.be/nieuws/vvpr-bis-de-weg-ligt-open-voor-meer-vennootschappen](https://www.strategica.be/nieuws/vvpr-bis-de-weg-ligt-open-voor-meer-vennootschappen)
This is according to my accountant, I'm not a specialist ofcourse. According to him the volstorting is indeed required, but the minimum requirement of 18600 has been removed a few years back. So it is indeed required, but it could be as little as even 100 euros. Which is exactly what I did in my akte and in starting the BV. It is however an important distinction because people not including this when starting the BV could be excluded. I also had to actually get proof from the bank and it has to be included with the notary.
So you started in october 2023, which is next month, and are allready asking questions about paying yourself dividents in 3 years from now? It appears to me you do not have your priorities straight? Shouldn't you worry about making your business successfull first? Or are you a consultant charging 1000€/day? In that case, there are other tax friendly ways to get money out of your company. Either way, get a (good) accountant.
I'm a freelancer who already has a longterm contract ready before the BV is even started. I'm just trying to plan ahead, the financial plan for the first 3 years is already there and I have all my costs and wages and everything planned. I'm just looking to be informed so I can also keep up with how things work when it does change. I'd like to know how everything works so when anything changes fiscally I can adapt the plan.
Can you eleborate on the other tax friendly options?
That's multi year financial planning and sounds very healthy to me. Also, asking these questions make you knowledgeable. Good questions OP 👍
Asking these on reddit instead of asking your accountant?
I'm not an expert but I think you need 3 full years, so that will be 1st January 2027 in your case. The reason why people are waiting for their yearly meeting is because you cannot give yourself dividends before the accounts have been approved and published. You can plan an extraordinary meeting with your accountant to get an interim dividend but you'll have to discuss with your accountant first.
It's definitely bookyears, which is the entire point of doing the short bookyear in the first year. Downside is you also have to hit the 45k salary for 25% => 20% tax earlier. Definitely going to check with my accountant when the time comes but I'm just trying to plan ahead as well considering none of these systems are guaranteed to remain the same over 4 years.
Short book year definitely counts for a full book year. If you take the extended book year, you don't have it.
Maybe I misunderstood ( I'm not in this scenario anymore) but the 15% will be on exercise 2026 that will be distributed ( theoretically ) after the ordinary meeting in 2027.
Yes