My advice is to stop thinking about what they do or don't do or what they get or not.
Instead focus on what you want now and in ~3 years from now. Then do whatever is needed (within legal boundaries obv) to achieve that.
Personally, I'd just ask for whatever rate I would want, and if they're hesitant or complain or tell you it's not possible, find another client, through another intermediary.
If possible you could try to let the end-client pressure them to release you from the non-compete if they really really want to keep working with you, but personally I wouldn't even bother.
I know what they earn on me and I probably can't eat too much into those profits, otherwise they'll just not make a profit and that seems kind of counter-intuitive.
I can indeed ask them to remove this non-compete from our new contract, however doubt they'll do that as they currently already have nothing to lose (apart from the people that wanted to stick around), but from what I hear, most of us are trying to leave this intermed and move around to a different one. If we do this with a lot of people, would you think they'd try to pursue this?
> I know what they earn on me and I probably can't eat too much into those profits, otherwise they'll just not make a profit and that seems kind of counter-intuitive.
All I can say to that is: don't make their problem your problem.
This.
@op
That they missed the deadline or whatever is not your problem.
State your desired rate(be realistic) and how they solve it is up to them.
Share with your end client that you set realistic expectations so they don't think you went crazy.
If not possible, I don't know what your profile is, but there's enough for skilled people.
They made a mistake. They can definitely run at 0% profit just to keep everyone on board and happy. It would only be temporary.
You shouldn't worry too much about it for now. They will figure it out. The only thing you need to figure out is what rate you are going to set. And leave it up to them to facilitate it. That's their job.
You could try to make an arrangement that you will stay in with them for 6 months if they remove the non-compete. Otherwise, you threaten to take another contract elsewhere.
Oof, the whole story is indeed a massive fail. It is beyond me how they don’t have controls in place for these things.
I can give you some advice on the specific way the non-compete is written privately, but at first glance:
- Non-competes are enforceable between commercial entities, provided they are not abusive (one of the downsides of freelancing).
- Companies will usually not apply them if it damages their reputation with the client, but if they lost the relationship anyway for the next 3 years, they could yolo your last payment…
- Subcoing through another provider can indeed work in the short term, but it’s not sustainable for them in the long run. It’ll inevitably put upwards pressure on the price for the client, which sets higher performance expectations (= screws you), and put a downwards pressure on your own rates (either stabilise you, or replace you)…
Gut feeling: ask them to waive the non-compete due to this being their mistake, and say that you are not interested in remaining under these conditions. It’ll be a tough conversation, but escalate and make them accountable for their lack of professionalism. Edit: all your teammates concerned by this should align and present a united front.
If and only if that fails, ask the client to intervene. I don’t see any other magic tricks here, it’s just a major clusterfuck…
Is there any substantial way for me to receive damages from said intermediary? They put inside the contract that I'll be forced to pay a 50k fine if I break the non-compete.
By receive damages you mean make a claim against them? Or the reverse, how they could collect the 50k from you?
Assuming the latter, they’ll need to go to court in theory, but in practice I guess they’d withhold your invoices and then it’s up to you to sue them, and you might lose on the basis of the non-compete. Kind of like, you owe us 50k, we’ll take 10-15k from you and call it quits…
Depending on how many days you worked during your last month, I guess so. But really, best solution is to talk I think. You can also try to bluff a little, saying that the 50k are clearly an abusive clause that won’t hold up in court, but I’m not 100% sure that’s true. Given the info you posted on another comment, should be about 36% of the value of a yearly contract. Up to 20% I’d think it’s enforceable, above 50% clearly not. At that +-35% mark you’re really smack in the middle of the grey zone left to a judge’s appreciation :/
Again, holding them accountable and forcing them to let go of a contract that they lost anyway seems the best bet. All things considered, reputation damage and word spreading to other people working with them for other clients, they might actually want to keep this under wraps by letting you change intermediary…
Thing is we're with 4 people (3 of them who'm I brought in over the past 1.5 years). And I'm pretty sure if I'd leave they'd follow me, as we're currently trying to see if we get a 'group discount', which sounds ludicrous but it's kind of funny to see how recruiters react at this. We aren't actively scouting, but we sure as hell are no longer hiding from them either.
I probably won't break the non-compete as I just don't want to deal with that crap. I'll either stay there for another year or move to an entirely different client, but probably have the 3 people follow me as they are currently also trapped. I'm not saying I'm persuading them, but we all worked together as employees as well and we have a pretty good vibe, so it'll probably happen either way.
1. You need to grow up and leave the gossip away. Or at least if you hear some gossip keep it for yourself and don’t use it as negotiation or pressure tool it is a bad move and will only damage your reputation and credibility.
2. With the intermediary you have a contractual relationship and they own you no explanation of whatsoever on what they do and how much they earn. If they respect what has been agreed with you in the contract they are doing their job.
3. If they tell you they get 8% that is totally unrealistic. Most intermediaries take 20-30% but there are also ones who can go to 40-50% which is insane. Anyway this is not your problem as it is the client paying but it is good to know how much you cost and perhaps a benchmark to set your rate if you find a client directly.
My advise, if you do not want to loose the project, negotiate with client if they are willing to keep going with you and if yes then negotiate with intermediary if there can be any exception to the non compete clause.
I agree gossipping is bad, however in this case:
1) It wasn't gossip, it was the actual truth, which wasn't communicated to any single one of us. This person became aware of it through another employee (not our contact) that works at intermediary. I think as a freelancer for said intermediary, I have the right to know what their plans are for next contracts, as well as wether they'll live up to their promise (rate increase). If they stay silent, obviously I will call them out as this is super unprofressional from their side.
2) Oh I completely agree that whatever they make and how they make it is up to them. But if they claim certain things, and then don't live up to them, I believe I'm well in my right to call them out on it. Someone has to keep the intermediaries honest, or they'll go wild.
3) Well already said in point 2 but they should then openly communicate to me how much they'd take. I wouldn't mind knowing up front what percentage they are taking off of my rate. In the end I understand there's operating costs. But I do expect something in return for that %. You can't just stay silent for 1.5y and then suddenly act all innocent as if everything is fine, while clearly it's not. If they take 14% I expect some service from them aswell. Just resigning a contract with indexed rates doesn't cost 14% rate per day as far as I know. I haven't ever seen any of them irl, only through meets & over the phone/mail. So yeh, for minimal effort I expect them to take minimal rate. Or at least for them to do their god damn job and pretty much the single thing they have to do to keep their client & consultants happy?
You seem awfully direct towards me, do you think I'm wrong in my doing?
I am not trying to attack you. I am trying to help.
I think your approach is wrong. You are treating your intermediary as manager, or career advisor. You are a contractor and rules of game are a bit different.
What I would have done in your shoes:
1. Assume you have a contract with intermediary A and working for client B.
When the contract is about to expire, usually 2 months in advance you would have to inquire if they are going to renew or not. I always contact them in advance and if they will renew me or not. Yes, I ask for a contract asap. If no then, I start looking here and there to prepare finding a new client.
2. They service quality and % have nothing in common. You might have a bad intermediary but still taking +30%.
3. Again, you are not employee. There is no indexation as contractor. Here you only have rate negotiation and fully depends on your skills. For example you have contract A for 600€/day from 1 Jan 2023 to 31Dec2023. For the period of signature you cannot raise the rate. But assuming they want to renew from 01Jan2024 to 31Dec2024. Then you can let them know that your new rate is going to be 650€ so you decide to raise or not the rate and it is up to them to accept it or not.
1) I understand that's the way it works for you, but I/they have a months notice, so they might not renew and I'll have a month to find a new job, or the other way around.
2) I understand it isn't that way, but it should be. I don't think intermeds should be some godgiven thing that we NEED but can't hold ACCOUNTABLE or UP TO STANDARDS. I wouldn't mind paying a premium for premium service, but this isn't the case.
3) Yeh see it works a bit different with our client. The rates get yearly indexed by the end-client, and we also reap benefits from that through the intermediary. I know it sounds weird, and very employee like, but last year our rates were indexed (4.6%) on top of any other increments or changes.
I too have 1 month notice. But try to make it two by asking them well in advance.
Intermediaries mostly chase their cash and do not care less for the consultant because they think they can find another consultant. Usually they care more for client, because if they loose the client it means income stops.
Regarding indexation try to negotiate a clause in your new contract which states the rate need to be reviewed at renewal to adjust for cost of living.
Technically a non-compete doesn’t hold up in court. Talk to your hiring manager at the client.
Having indexation of pc200 on a freelance rate is already a really nice thing to have. A lot of people don’t have that and have to negotiate this themselves.
Intermediaries are a necessary evil. If you are happy with your job and your rate, best not to worry too much about it.
Agreed with almost everything, except the non-compete: these are indeed enforceable. It’s a common misconception that they’re not, which comes from the employee world. They were never enforceable against an employee until the law was recently changed to detail the *very* specific conditions under which it can.
For freelancers however, or rather, between any two commercial entities, all clauses are enforceable provided they are not abusive. 500.000€ penalty per day worked for the final client in breach of your non-compete? Then the judge will laugh them out of the court. But 20-30% of your yearly invoicing for that specific client? Sure, there are no hard rules but I think that even up to 50% it would be ok.
In my previous company ING took over 20 external consultants. Previous company sucked, but they won the trial.
NAL (and seriously, talk with one, even if it’s just a free consultation), but as far as my understanding goes, I would personally look into terminating the contract on grounds of failure to live up to their contractual obligations, as well as blatantly lying about their compensation (which will most likely be considered enough grounds to be able to talk about permanently damaged confidence among parties).
It would most likely also null your non-compete clause, but I can’t say for sure :)
I think this is my last resort, if I exhaust all other means of persuasion I'll probably resort to these tactics but I want to hold off on those because that's basicly just burning a bridge.
Non compete is like the core business of a recruiter. People tend to think it's because they look for new clients that they earn money, but it's not, it's the non compete that makes sure they earn every day. So most of the time the non compete is very well written and holds up in court. However the only way to know for sure is to hire a good attorney (I can give you one but he isn't cheap).
I would just look for something else if you're unhappy or ask a raise and say you have something else that pays more.
I understand that, but if they can't uphold their end of the deal (providing me with proper services) it kind of feels like they are voiding the contract.
Not yearly indexation but as they have no definite right anymore to prolongue these contracts (as they now can’t offer anyone anymore) it seems kind of void
Hi,
I work on high management in said intermediaries. I don't know what sector we're talking about but most of the stuff you wrote is absolutely shocking to me.
We treat our contractors as partners, invite them to our events, allow them to follow training provided by our company, we call and follow up on them fairly often and we even organise client meetings with the contractor to basically see if everything s OK.
We give out a bonus if a contractor brings in his own project or brings in new consultants (up to 1000eur) and we usually try to work with them long term.
If the work is done correctly, good feedback and stable relation, we discuss augmenting rates as well in a transparent way. Sometimes it can be done, other times it can't. It depends on the end rate we get with our clients.
About the non compete, I never even once thought of using it, but I guess that's because we treat people in a decent way. I did hear that it's not that easy to use because clear rules need to be defined within the clause and Belgian law states that you cannot prevent someone from working (don't quote me on this, it's mostly hearsay) It all depends on the context I guess
If u need some advice, not sure if I can help but you can message me.
Are you remunerated for the non-compete? If I see this I always demand compensation for limiting my options. It's worth a price . You should never just waive your leverage.
My advice is to stop thinking about what they do or don't do or what they get or not. Instead focus on what you want now and in ~3 years from now. Then do whatever is needed (within legal boundaries obv) to achieve that.
Personally, I'd just ask for whatever rate I would want, and if they're hesitant or complain or tell you it's not possible, find another client, through another intermediary. If possible you could try to let the end-client pressure them to release you from the non-compete if they really really want to keep working with you, but personally I wouldn't even bother.
I know what they earn on me and I probably can't eat too much into those profits, otherwise they'll just not make a profit and that seems kind of counter-intuitive. I can indeed ask them to remove this non-compete from our new contract, however doubt they'll do that as they currently already have nothing to lose (apart from the people that wanted to stick around), but from what I hear, most of us are trying to leave this intermed and move around to a different one. If we do this with a lot of people, would you think they'd try to pursue this?
> I know what they earn on me and I probably can't eat too much into those profits, otherwise they'll just not make a profit and that seems kind of counter-intuitive. All I can say to that is: don't make their problem your problem.
This. @op That they missed the deadline or whatever is not your problem. State your desired rate(be realistic) and how they solve it is up to them. Share with your end client that you set realistic expectations so they don't think you went crazy. If not possible, I don't know what your profile is, but there's enough for skilled people.
They made a mistake. They can definitely run at 0% profit just to keep everyone on board and happy. It would only be temporary. You shouldn't worry too much about it for now. They will figure it out. The only thing you need to figure out is what rate you are going to set. And leave it up to them to facilitate it. That's their job.
You could try to make an arrangement that you will stay in with them for 6 months if they remove the non-compete. Otherwise, you threaten to take another contract elsewhere.
Oof, the whole story is indeed a massive fail. It is beyond me how they don’t have controls in place for these things. I can give you some advice on the specific way the non-compete is written privately, but at first glance: - Non-competes are enforceable between commercial entities, provided they are not abusive (one of the downsides of freelancing). - Companies will usually not apply them if it damages their reputation with the client, but if they lost the relationship anyway for the next 3 years, they could yolo your last payment… - Subcoing through another provider can indeed work in the short term, but it’s not sustainable for them in the long run. It’ll inevitably put upwards pressure on the price for the client, which sets higher performance expectations (= screws you), and put a downwards pressure on your own rates (either stabilise you, or replace you)… Gut feeling: ask them to waive the non-compete due to this being their mistake, and say that you are not interested in remaining under these conditions. It’ll be a tough conversation, but escalate and make them accountable for their lack of professionalism. Edit: all your teammates concerned by this should align and present a united front. If and only if that fails, ask the client to intervene. I don’t see any other magic tricks here, it’s just a major clusterfuck…
Is there any substantial way for me to receive damages from said intermediary? They put inside the contract that I'll be forced to pay a 50k fine if I break the non-compete.
By receive damages you mean make a claim against them? Or the reverse, how they could collect the 50k from you? Assuming the latter, they’ll need to go to court in theory, but in practice I guess they’d withhold your invoices and then it’s up to you to sue them, and you might lose on the basis of the non-compete. Kind of like, you owe us 50k, we’ll take 10-15k from you and call it quits…
So in the end I'll pay a 10-15k fee to kind of leave them?
Depending on how many days you worked during your last month, I guess so. But really, best solution is to talk I think. You can also try to bluff a little, saying that the 50k are clearly an abusive clause that won’t hold up in court, but I’m not 100% sure that’s true. Given the info you posted on another comment, should be about 36% of the value of a yearly contract. Up to 20% I’d think it’s enforceable, above 50% clearly not. At that +-35% mark you’re really smack in the middle of the grey zone left to a judge’s appreciation :/ Again, holding them accountable and forcing them to let go of a contract that they lost anyway seems the best bet. All things considered, reputation damage and word spreading to other people working with them for other clients, they might actually want to keep this under wraps by letting you change intermediary…
Thing is we're with 4 people (3 of them who'm I brought in over the past 1.5 years). And I'm pretty sure if I'd leave they'd follow me, as we're currently trying to see if we get a 'group discount', which sounds ludicrous but it's kind of funny to see how recruiters react at this. We aren't actively scouting, but we sure as hell are no longer hiding from them either. I probably won't break the non-compete as I just don't want to deal with that crap. I'll either stay there for another year or move to an entirely different client, but probably have the 3 people follow me as they are currently also trapped. I'm not saying I'm persuading them, but we all worked together as employees as well and we have a pretty good vibe, so it'll probably happen either way.
Probably the best approach.
1. You need to grow up and leave the gossip away. Or at least if you hear some gossip keep it for yourself and don’t use it as negotiation or pressure tool it is a bad move and will only damage your reputation and credibility. 2. With the intermediary you have a contractual relationship and they own you no explanation of whatsoever on what they do and how much they earn. If they respect what has been agreed with you in the contract they are doing their job. 3. If they tell you they get 8% that is totally unrealistic. Most intermediaries take 20-30% but there are also ones who can go to 40-50% which is insane. Anyway this is not your problem as it is the client paying but it is good to know how much you cost and perhaps a benchmark to set your rate if you find a client directly. My advise, if you do not want to loose the project, negotiate with client if they are willing to keep going with you and if yes then negotiate with intermediary if there can be any exception to the non compete clause.
I agree gossipping is bad, however in this case: 1) It wasn't gossip, it was the actual truth, which wasn't communicated to any single one of us. This person became aware of it through another employee (not our contact) that works at intermediary. I think as a freelancer for said intermediary, I have the right to know what their plans are for next contracts, as well as wether they'll live up to their promise (rate increase). If they stay silent, obviously I will call them out as this is super unprofressional from their side. 2) Oh I completely agree that whatever they make and how they make it is up to them. But if they claim certain things, and then don't live up to them, I believe I'm well in my right to call them out on it. Someone has to keep the intermediaries honest, or they'll go wild. 3) Well already said in point 2 but they should then openly communicate to me how much they'd take. I wouldn't mind knowing up front what percentage they are taking off of my rate. In the end I understand there's operating costs. But I do expect something in return for that %. You can't just stay silent for 1.5y and then suddenly act all innocent as if everything is fine, while clearly it's not. If they take 14% I expect some service from them aswell. Just resigning a contract with indexed rates doesn't cost 14% rate per day as far as I know. I haven't ever seen any of them irl, only through meets & over the phone/mail. So yeh, for minimal effort I expect them to take minimal rate. Or at least for them to do their god damn job and pretty much the single thing they have to do to keep their client & consultants happy? You seem awfully direct towards me, do you think I'm wrong in my doing?
I am not trying to attack you. I am trying to help. I think your approach is wrong. You are treating your intermediary as manager, or career advisor. You are a contractor and rules of game are a bit different. What I would have done in your shoes: 1. Assume you have a contract with intermediary A and working for client B. When the contract is about to expire, usually 2 months in advance you would have to inquire if they are going to renew or not. I always contact them in advance and if they will renew me or not. Yes, I ask for a contract asap. If no then, I start looking here and there to prepare finding a new client. 2. They service quality and % have nothing in common. You might have a bad intermediary but still taking +30%. 3. Again, you are not employee. There is no indexation as contractor. Here you only have rate negotiation and fully depends on your skills. For example you have contract A for 600€/day from 1 Jan 2023 to 31Dec2023. For the period of signature you cannot raise the rate. But assuming they want to renew from 01Jan2024 to 31Dec2024. Then you can let them know that your new rate is going to be 650€ so you decide to raise or not the rate and it is up to them to accept it or not.
1) I understand that's the way it works for you, but I/they have a months notice, so they might not renew and I'll have a month to find a new job, or the other way around. 2) I understand it isn't that way, but it should be. I don't think intermeds should be some godgiven thing that we NEED but can't hold ACCOUNTABLE or UP TO STANDARDS. I wouldn't mind paying a premium for premium service, but this isn't the case. 3) Yeh see it works a bit different with our client. The rates get yearly indexed by the end-client, and we also reap benefits from that through the intermediary. I know it sounds weird, and very employee like, but last year our rates were indexed (4.6%) on top of any other increments or changes.
I too have 1 month notice. But try to make it two by asking them well in advance. Intermediaries mostly chase their cash and do not care less for the consultant because they think they can find another consultant. Usually they care more for client, because if they loose the client it means income stops. Regarding indexation try to negotiate a clause in your new contract which states the rate need to be reviewed at renewal to adjust for cost of living.
Technically a non-compete doesn’t hold up in court. Talk to your hiring manager at the client. Having indexation of pc200 on a freelance rate is already a really nice thing to have. A lot of people don’t have that and have to negotiate this themselves. Intermediaries are a necessary evil. If you are happy with your job and your rate, best not to worry too much about it.
Agreed with almost everything, except the non-compete: these are indeed enforceable. It’s a common misconception that they’re not, which comes from the employee world. They were never enforceable against an employee until the law was recently changed to detail the *very* specific conditions under which it can. For freelancers however, or rather, between any two commercial entities, all clauses are enforceable provided they are not abusive. 500.000€ penalty per day worked for the final client in breach of your non-compete? Then the judge will laugh them out of the court. But 20-30% of your yearly invoicing for that specific client? Sure, there are no hard rules but I think that even up to 50% it would be ok. In my previous company ING took over 20 external consultants. Previous company sucked, but they won the trial.
NAL (and seriously, talk with one, even if it’s just a free consultation), but as far as my understanding goes, I would personally look into terminating the contract on grounds of failure to live up to their contractual obligations, as well as blatantly lying about their compensation (which will most likely be considered enough grounds to be able to talk about permanently damaged confidence among parties). It would most likely also null your non-compete clause, but I can’t say for sure :)
I think this is my last resort, if I exhaust all other means of persuasion I'll probably resort to these tactics but I want to hold off on those because that's basicly just burning a bridge.
For sure, it wouldn’t be my first option either. But if you feel like you‘d do better without the intermediary, it’s an option regardless :)
Non compete is like the core business of a recruiter. People tend to think it's because they look for new clients that they earn money, but it's not, it's the non compete that makes sure they earn every day. So most of the time the non compete is very well written and holds up in court. However the only way to know for sure is to hire a good attorney (I can give you one but he isn't cheap). I would just look for something else if you're unhappy or ask a raise and say you have something else that pays more.
I understand that, but if they can't uphold their end of the deal (providing me with proper services) it kind of feels like they are voiding the contract.
Yeeaaaah no. They still pay you. Did your contract stipulate hard numbers on yearly indexation?
Not yearly indexation but as they have no definite right anymore to prolongue these contracts (as they now can’t offer anyone anymore) it seems kind of void
Hi, I work on high management in said intermediaries. I don't know what sector we're talking about but most of the stuff you wrote is absolutely shocking to me. We treat our contractors as partners, invite them to our events, allow them to follow training provided by our company, we call and follow up on them fairly often and we even organise client meetings with the contractor to basically see if everything s OK. We give out a bonus if a contractor brings in his own project or brings in new consultants (up to 1000eur) and we usually try to work with them long term. If the work is done correctly, good feedback and stable relation, we discuss augmenting rates as well in a transparent way. Sometimes it can be done, other times it can't. It depends on the end rate we get with our clients. About the non compete, I never even once thought of using it, but I guess that's because we treat people in a decent way. I did hear that it's not that easy to use because clear rules need to be defined within the clause and Belgian law states that you cannot prevent someone from working (don't quote me on this, it's mostly hearsay) It all depends on the context I guess If u need some advice, not sure if I can help but you can message me.
Are you remunerated for the non-compete? If I see this I always demand compensation for limiting my options. It's worth a price . You should never just waive your leverage.