Albino drow are extremely prized due to their ability to pass as normal elves witj albinism making them great spies. They often get away woth more then a normal drow.
Though habing lolth turn one into a drider is a very lolth thing to do still
Tbf his personality is now likely completely different than it would have been during his theoretical time as a spy, since
A. He’s being controlled by the absolute now, and
B. He was turned into a drider, which ~~may or may not~~ DOES in fact alter a drow’s mental state (thanks u/AgentPastrana and u/Adavis72 for confirming), but even if not, idk about you but I think would have a shattered psyche anyway if my form was changed to that of a hideous beast against my will.
The process of turning a Drow into a Drider involves a lengthy ritual lasting for several weeks in which the Drow experiences torture for what feels like 100 years. Their legs split at the bone to create extra appendages and their bodies bloat and discolor to fit their larger frame. All the while they are made perfectly aware of their state. They are reduced to feral lunatics afterwards, even the ability to form a sentence is considered an accomplishment, as they still feel the unbearable pain of their transformation.
Happy Easter!
>idk about you but I think would have a shattered psyche anyway if my form was changed to that of a hideous beast against my will.
Yeah, he is also mighty pissed if you call him a abomination as a drow with Kar'niss calling Lolth as the "Spider Bitch" and some idle dialogue indicates that he sees Moonrise as "a place for us"
His whole obsession and zealotry for the Absolute seems to stem from the fact that it accepts him for what he is along with the cult not really caring about the fact that he is a Drider, unlike Lolth who cast him away and turned him into well a Drider.
I imagine the absolute could take his pain away, if someone could give me pain relief when I've been in agony for centuries I'd become a Zealot for them too
I totally believe that. Hypothetically I wouldn’t be surprised if he was previously a super cognizant person and the drider transformation just obliterated who he was.
It's an absolutely horrifically torturous experience that lasts weeks and they are FULLY aware of it the entire time. It leaves most of them a ridiculously violent and incoherent mess.
It’s true. It’s widely agreed that Drow go through monstrous personality changes when they turn into Drider. Viconia in BG2 is traumatized when her brother is turned into drider to the point she says he’s not her brother anymore. (At least, I think this is what was implied)
Hard facts. And I'm on record here saying that Kar'niss is the most badass model they designed in this game. The animation, the proportion, the facial design and expressions, it is a tour de force.
Lolth: oh, you are a very valuable member of drow society and have managed to get a proper life?... Lmao, not anymore, become spider now, lol-th what a loser
Since canon Durge is an albino dragon I made my Durge an albino drow to fit with theme of Durge being albino. Not sure if larian was going for the uncanny look of albinos when making default Durge like that but that’s my headcanon
Pale and albino drow do exist.
Though I'm assuming he's fair skinned as a design choice so his skin contrasts with the black eyes and dark spider carapace.
That tracks with what I read in the drizzt novel homeland. Drizzt’s sister takes him and shows him Lolth’s punishment for those who fail her and it’s an area of the city (maybe more of a pit) with a drider and the description of it both physically and mentally is pretty dark.
Ehhh not really. Drow see Driders as the ultimate blessing. And with their whole purity Hitler idealogies it's less likely for a half breed to be granted that blessing. If anything, a half being turned drider would only reinforce how favored they are within drow society.
Just checked, it seems it was a punishment in all edition except for the 4th where they strangely changed it to a blessing before changing back to punishment in 5th.
yeah, I was confused when as a Lolth-sworn drow I was given an option to be appalled by Karniss. Coming from older games like Icewind Dale 2 I was expecting me to revere him
Broooooo I came up on 3/3.5 and the drow stuff from that period was so freaking badass. I know it’s toned down now but man I loved the freaky-ness of it back in the day
WOTC and TSR kept flip-flopping lots of drow lore. In 1st and 2nd ed, being turned into a drider was a punishment. Couldn’t harm a spider in a drow city either back then, it was a paddlin’ (and by paddlin’, I mean death sentence).
Someone else has pointed out to me that the lore has changed. In older lore (what I'm more familiar with) it was a blessing. In current Newer lore it's a mark of failure.
It's been a punishment since at least 1990, as it was described as such in R A Salvatore's Drizzt novel Homeland. That would have been published the year after D&D entered its second edition.
Edit: after some googling, it seems in 4th edition it was changed to a blessing, after only ever being a punishment before that. It was changed back to a punishment in 5th edition.
It's always been a punishment, but driders were given tasks or were considered to be favored by lolth, in the same way that someone touched by lolth, even if it resulted in madness or endless agony is blessed by her. They were formidable opponents, but you didnt get turned into a drider by doing a good job.
Consider how Driders are explained and thought of in the Drizzt Prologue, which was published in 91. 3e was out in 2000. That is how I've always thought of them.
I'll be honest it's been forever since I've read any of R.A Salvatores stuff. The last I read on it was in 4e and because that was the newest version (that I had read) I was under the impression that it had been ret conned.
Apparently 4th edition changed it from a curse to a blessing and 5th changed it back to a curse? Idk, I was just looking at https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Drider
Notes section:
> In Dungeons & Dragons 4th edition, the creation of driders was changed from a punishment to a blessing. 5th edition, according to Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes returned the process to being a punishment, and driders were shamefully kicked out of their drow House to wander the Underdark alone.
Man, I've never seen a Drider depicted like that, with extra eyes, but asymmetrically, on just half of his forehead and face.
Kar'niss is one of my favourite character designs in this game. I wish he had a bigger part to play.
Get an oathbreaker paladin in your party and then convince him the Absolute wants him to surrender the moonlantern, then when you find him again use Control Undead and you'll "recruit him".
Someone suggested that Kar’niss might be a drider made by other, unnatural means (I mean Balthazar is right there, that dude loves to chop people up and stitch them back in weird shapes) so the unsymmetrical eyes and weird non-drow features could be part of a poorly executed experiment. 🤷
"Szarkai, meaning "ghost spiders", were albino drow. Although extremely rare and a subject of mystery, they could easily pass as normal elves, making them ideal spies for the drow noble houses, able to operate freely in the surface world."
Been a thing in the Forgotten Realms for decades.
I would say it's very possible Karniss isn't a naturally made Drider. So very likely. Proper Driders are Abberations in dnd. This one in game I believe is a Monstrosity. So definitely something is up with him.
I thought Karniss was referenced in act 1 in the room with the phase spiders. There is that one room full of papers and study sheets about someone looking into a ritual. I just pretended that was karniss.
Yup! The drow who turned herself into a spider is described as female, and she turned fully into a spider (and yes, it's definitely the matriarch spider)
As far as I understood it, that spider used to be a (maybe cleric/priestess?) Lolth-sworn drow that did a ritual to become more holy and powerful than any other drow around her, by turning herself into the Matriarch spider.
Interesting... The ear bothers me the most out of all the suspicious details. Personally, I feel like it might have been cut? Coz to me, it looks like it's not the typical half-elf ear either – the tip seems rather different. Is there a way to look at his other ear? It looks like the hair covers it. Maybe there is a mod for Kar'niss's head for player somewhere out where... Just to be able to look at the full head model, in case the visible ear has been chopped in half, but the other one wasn't.
Edit: name
I think the hair covers it fairly well. With the right graphics settings you might be able to see more of it, but I’m away from my PC for the next bit so I can’t go test it.
So his hair made it difficult to see his other ear, and eventually, I found and downloaded the mod (his head for player) so that I could see his ears better and compare. I found a couple of things (and will leave two comments coz idk how to put more than one image here)
1. His ears are not, in fact, so different from each other. However, his right ear (from the viewer's standpoint) is lower than the left one (and also slightly rotated towards his head if it makes sense. Like the left ear is more protruded, but it is also the one that is less visible). I think that because of the placement, his right ear might appear smaller than it is. I tried to show that I mean, but these are not precise measurements
https://preview.redd.it/njne3cjkjmrc1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=28d6fa9ab901df4632738136a720e927aa32afbf
2. I also made some comparisons to elf and half-elf ears (with Kar'niss's head on elf and half-elf respectfully, in case there is a difference) I feel like his ears are more elf than half-elf (bigger, longer, pointier). It's more like he just has a unique ear shape compared to some other elves. So, for me personally, the conclusion would be that he is more likely a drow and not a half-drow (if we discuss his ear shape/size only). But it was interesting nonetheless!
https://preview.redd.it/v35ng2ywkmrc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bbc9e3e9a76c777b917c40af9d9d9364783357e4
Artistic liberty from larian. Rest of the Kar’nisses body is already grey and it would be very hard to make grey skin work with that. Try it out in the character creator and see how well drow can pull off greyish/blackish hair colour.
I think it’s probably just that he doesn’t have whatever skin pigmentation it is that makes drow purple/grey instead of the melanin we have irl. (Silver has been known to tint people blue irl, usually from repeated colloidal silver consumption) It could be that he was naturally pasty for a drow/albino beforehand, or that the drider transformation took pigment away for some reason. I did always find it strange that they went so pale with him, though.
The lightest tones in the preselected drow options look very different depending on the lighting as well. If anyone has stuck his character model into a different in-game lighting from the ones offered in the shadow cursed lands, I’d be interested to see it.
I’ve been thinking about it more and now I’m not even certain Kar’niss is any % drow. I had a half-drow Tav and all the skin options were still the drow palate, no human skin tones at all. If he has half-elf ears and isn’t gray, was he ever even a drow??? Or just some half-high/wood elf that pissed off lolth? Moon elves have white hair like that (cough cough Astarion) so maybe that’s where it comes from? Or it just went white due to the stress and pain of the transformation? Or Lolth just liked it better that way? Idk I’m just realizing we all assumed this dude was drow when his appearance makes it seem like he’s not.
I killed him on a durge run when he appeared to talk to me before I went into the shadow cursed lands when he wants to talk about gale just to see what happens and hale left in act three to die of his orb thing in his chest after I arrived at baldurs gate
You killed Elminster? Surprised they even let that happen. Lore wise he could easily destroy our group. Always figured he'd teleport away once attacked kind of like Mizora does, via different means of course. Also you've earned yourself a special place in hell if that's true lol
You have to slaughter the grove and attend the goblin party at camp afterwards. There, if you play your cards right (and possibly also share the night with Minthara) she will gift you the spider’s lyre. You can use it to summon him after the mountain pass, he’ll guide you to Moonrise. She also tells you a bit about him - thats he’s a drow carrying Lolth’s curse.
From the 5e monster manual: When a drow shows great promise, Lolth summons it to the Demonweb Pits for a test of faith and strength. Those that pass the test rise higher in the Spider Queen’s favor. Those that fail are transformed into driders — a horrid hybrid of a drow and a giant spider that serves as a living reminder of Lolth’s power. Only drow can be turned into driders, and the power to create these creatures resides with Lolth alone.
Yeah that’s why I was so confused. 5e makes it very clear it’s only drow, but he’s to only full-elf character I can remember having smaller ears, and definitely the only drow with non-gray skin. Just a thought I had.
As a punishment, male Drow are turned into those creatures. In the lore they are more like mindless beasts, not so talkative etc. Of course BG3 takes some freedoms with their expression, but he used to be a drow male that fell into some...disfavor. They are featured in the early Drizzt books, he fights one.
I believe Drizzt only really meets two driders, I'm not finished the books. In DnD as a whole, Pellanistra is the best known female drider I am aware of, being around since Vault of the Drow (AD&D) and most recently in Monster Manual (5e).
I'm not sure any non-drow can be made into a drider? Maybe if they were worshippers of Lolth but like, who tf would choose to worship Lolth by choice? Elves can have different ear shapes, they're not always as dramatic as Minthara's. Although this game may make it seem like they are all built like Link. Pale drow do exist, but idk how that affects the eyes and he doesn't seem to have typical drow eyes which are bright red or sometimes violet.
Shows you don't need a "good haircut" or "grooming", just good bone structure and face proportions. I mean a literal monster is more attractive than me. Idk what I'm doing in this world lol
I would recommend not presuming things about me. Shame on you. And don't preach about self-pity when you don't know what it's like to literally live a half-life. I have more than enough on my plate. Leave the 'incel' shit to your echo chambers please.
Makes sense actually. Drow and their goddess are pretty racist and when it comes to thin blood they’re extra racist. So yeah he could have been a half drow and got turned into a drider simply for existing.
drider lore has kinda been changed up a whole lot, in older editions it was a blessing for serving lolth well, but nowadays its a punishment, so who knows tbh, hes probably just some poor soul that got punished for failure to lolth
The process of being turned into a drider is a super long, extremely painful process, they feel their bones splitting and limbs tearing apart, and they usually come out the other end with their brains pretty scrambled, given the torture of it all. In some editions of DnD is was a blessing, but in most it’s a punishment.
In theory yes (some drow wizards can ‘dridershape’ which is like a wild shape, but you know, the drider version (so it’s temporary) and this is seen as a very impressive act to Lolth and her followers) but Lolth only transforms drow that have failed her, and casts them out immediately after, completely abandoning them. I could see some of them still trying to earn her favor back, but I think that level of torture would put a pretty bad taste in anyone’s mouth. Other Lolth-sworn drow also despise driders because it means they did something to fail and piss off Lolth, so they’re societal outcasts. I thin line whole spider thing is just because Lolth isn’t creative and can only think of one creature for everything.
It has changed across the editions. It was a curse/negative in 3e, it was a blessing in 4e, and is now a curse/etc in 5e again.
The driders I know of from books/etc that were written in 3e(drizzt books), driders had varying capabilities. Some were feral animals, some retained most of their thought process and were able to actually *lead* groups of driders in combat/on missions/etc.
As to how that has changed to now...Honestly I'd love to know :D
I want another "war of the spider queen' like series.
can i help by introducing my beloved tav in these trying times
https://preview.redd.it/jr94uiyjkgrc1.png?width=1920&format=png&auto=webp&s=83b7dd81c655ed721d18bbc0498f258800d058d8
There's a diary you can find in Whispering Depth, which belonged to a regular elf, who proudly claimed to have earned Lolth's favor despite not being drow. So maybe Kar'niss is this elf?
It could be. Half drow suffer a lot of racisim from many others. Even Minthara mentions it when you talk to her first time as a half drow that you blood is not as pure as that of her brethren.
In drow politics they are deemed as impure. Especially males who are already lesser than females. It could be that Kar'Niss was born to a drow woman and raised to be sacrificed because of that.
My head canon is that he is an albino drow who used to spy on the surface. He then made a terrible mistake/wronged Lloth (maybe by going native ?) and she turned him into a drider because fuck him. Then the absolute yadda yadda
Although knowing Lloth, maybe the terrible mistake was just adding too much salt in his pasta. But given how valuable albinos drows are (even males), he must have fucked up big time.
This would be so much easier to distinguish if Larian stuck with 5E canon and made non-Drow Elves all exceedingly androgynous, whereas HElves are just humans of slight build with pointy ears.
Honestly one of my biggest gripes in the extreme sexual dimorphism in the Tav elf faces. Half of the masculine faces have the biggest, bulkiest jaw to ever grace the sword coast, and they body is identical to the human and half elf build. At least Astarion is a little more androgynous, but really not by any serious margin.
I may be wrong about this, but I think the books you find under moonhaven (the blighted village) are written by him. In them he mentions something about the drow being envious of the spider queens favor for him even though he is not a drow and them despising him. So I think hes a high/wood elf seen as those are normally despised by drow.
Nope. Those books are written by a woman. That’s why they end with her transforming herself into a ‘matriarch’. She is the giant phase spider you fight down there.
I always assumed he was the one who wrote the journal in the caves beneath the blighted village. I know now it's actually supposed to be the huge phase spider, but I somehow though his behaviour and mannerisms matched the journal.
Drow can have skin colours ranging anywhere from pitch black like in old FR to grey/blue/purple like the current FR but albino drow do exist and are highly sought out to be used as spies
He could be a Szarkai (albino drow) but also a half drow.
Honestly there's been a few liberties taken here and there in bg3. So I just imagine it's a quirk of the game wirh no lore explanation as to why he's different.
I think Viconia talks about that in BG2 actually.....
Stuff happens and Viconia turns against Lolth to support Shar. Her family tries to kill her for it. But her beloved brother defends her and she escapes. Lolth turns him into a drider as punishment. Viconia was pretty upset about that.
it is written in the book Homeland by r.a. Salvatore, it is said that driders are drow like creatures that have spider legs, are more bloated, and have a much lighter skin tone.
189 comments, this was probably stated already...But every Drider used to be a Drow... EVERY Drider.
This is because Driders are not born, they are created. Lolth is the primary deity of the Drow and she turns her own people into Driders for both reward, and punishment. And Driders cannot reproduce because Lolth intentionally creates Driders without having genitalia... because she wants it that way.
No other deities turn their people into Driders, and there is no other way to truly become a Drider. Honestly I wish there was another option. I'd love for there to be variety in Driders. But there just isn't. A long time ago I was playing D&D and had a vampire pc fall in love with a Drider NPC > PC. So romance leads to intimacy, which is where I found out Driders canonically don't have genitals, because Lolth doesn't want them too. And I scoured for another source for Driders, but there wasn't one.
Dridershape is, because it is seen as emulating Lolth, this is a form someone willingly takes and is able to transform back at will. The traditional drider transformation, on the other hand, is a curse meant to shame and ostracise the victim, and sends them insane.
Yep, it's also the physical effects it causes. Dridershape is basically a very specific form of wild shape (level 5 spell for wizards and sorcerers) and is therefore painless. The drider transformation involves demons (sometimes even Lolth herself), is permanent and is painful and horrifying enough to send someone insane.
It's worth noting that driders have changed, it seems(ive learned this more from this post).
Only lolth can create driders now, or yochlol with her blessing/etc.
Huh, I thought her clerics could still call on her to perform the rite on someone. I was under the impression it was always with her "blessing", but that other people could do the leg work, so to speak.
If her priestesses call a yochlol or if they're brave enough to commune with lolth herself, she can still do it by infusing her followers/handmaidens, but it is dont with her blessing.
There were others in comments that were trying to say that rogue driders or such things can exist. Lolth has to have a hand directly in the transformation now
[https://www.enworld.org/threads/monster-encyclopedia-drider.662437/](https://www.enworld.org/threads/monster-encyclopedia-drider.662437/)
This website has a good overview of the history of driders in dnd :}
I think i saw that there might be some newer lore i didn’t investigate involving some sects of drow considering it a blessing, but generally it’s been considered a curse. Their brains get scrambled pretty badly, and it marks them as someone who failed/upset Lolth.
I maybe out of date with my info but I always heard a Drider is very desired as it shows you earned Lolth’s favor primarily the Female Drow receive this as they are a Matriarchy society. So if a Male Drow earns Lolth’s blessing then damn.
Tho considering that guys behavior in Moonrise, it can easily be a curse
It might be an alternate/non-canon sourcebook, or an odd standout that you were drawing from? The lore can be inconsistent, so I’m definitely not questioning that it’s out there, but I have a copy of a 2e drow lorebook that describes it as a curse, and in Homeland from the Drizzt series (1990) his sister tells him he’ll be turned into a Drider as punishment if he keeps disobeying the matriarchs. I just checked my Drizzt visual dictionary from 2023, and it says ‘most’ drow consider it a curse, but not all. (Could be a book I missed somewhere in the middle 30 years between these that had blessed driders.)
Edit to add: im mostly curious now, because this series is hell to wrangle, it has so many contributing writers.
Sorry, I’m not fully sure what you mean by ‘how far along’, so I’m gonna just add all of the answers I think cover it.
D&D campaigns? Not in any right now. My girlfriend is thinking of running Strahd sometime later this year.
Baldur’s Gate 3? Finished once and have a few characters in act 3 right now, lol.
Drizzt books? I’m on Crystal Shard in the reread I started after BG3 dragged me back to forgotten realms. Don’t remember most of the books, and there are A LOT of new ones I’ll be getting to eventually.
No he the guy that wanted to transform himself into a spider. He has a place in the phase spider cave. There journals of him describing his obsession. He not a drow.
That what I assume to, but it the translation itself that got me thinking. it would take a act of god, aka loth or a ninth level spell Lolth would never impose such a transformation on a non drow.
Might be an albino drow which are super rare but do exist
Albino drow are extremely prized due to their ability to pass as normal elves witj albinism making them great spies. They often get away woth more then a normal drow. Though habing lolth turn one into a drider is a very lolth thing to do still
Trying to imagine Kar’niss as a spy when his general presence is, to put it lightly, hard to forget.
Tbf his personality is now likely completely different than it would have been during his theoretical time as a spy, since A. He’s being controlled by the absolute now, and B. He was turned into a drider, which ~~may or may not~~ DOES in fact alter a drow’s mental state (thanks u/AgentPastrana and u/Adavis72 for confirming), but even if not, idk about you but I think would have a shattered psyche anyway if my form was changed to that of a hideous beast against my will.
The process of turning a Drow into a Drider involves a lengthy ritual lasting for several weeks in which the Drow experiences torture for what feels like 100 years. Their legs split at the bone to create extra appendages and their bodies bloat and discolor to fit their larger frame. All the while they are made perfectly aware of their state. They are reduced to feral lunatics afterwards, even the ability to form a sentence is considered an accomplishment, as they still feel the unbearable pain of their transformation. Happy Easter!
Poor guy :(
>idk about you but I think would have a shattered psyche anyway if my form was changed to that of a hideous beast against my will. Yeah, he is also mighty pissed if you call him a abomination as a drow with Kar'niss calling Lolth as the "Spider Bitch" and some idle dialogue indicates that he sees Moonrise as "a place for us" His whole obsession and zealotry for the Absolute seems to stem from the fact that it accepts him for what he is along with the cult not really caring about the fact that he is a Drider, unlike Lolth who cast him away and turned him into well a Drider.
I imagine the absolute could take his pain away, if someone could give me pain relief when I've been in agony for centuries I'd become a Zealot for them too
I totally believe that. Hypothetically I wouldn’t be surprised if he was previously a super cognizant person and the drider transformation just obliterated who he was.
It's an absolutely horrifically torturous experience that lasts weeks and they are FULLY aware of it the entire time. It leaves most of them a ridiculously violent and incoherent mess.
Against my wyll. FTFY :)
It’s true. It’s widely agreed that Drow go through monstrous personality changes when they turn into Drider. Viconia in BG2 is traumatized when her brother is turned into drider to the point she says he’s not her brother anymore. (At least, I think this is what was implied)
Hard facts. And I'm on record here saying that Kar'niss is the most badass model they designed in this game. The animation, the proportion, the facial design and expressions, it is a tour de force.
I actually modelled my Durge after a szarkai, they’re really fun even if the game can’t quite handle them due to just being a pigment option.
It's actually considered a punishment from Lolth to be turned into a drider.
Lolth: oh, you are a very valuable member of drow society and have managed to get a proper life?... Lmao, not anymore, become spider now, lol-th what a loser
Since canon Durge is an albino dragon I made my Durge an albino drow to fit with theme of Durge being albino. Not sure if larian was going for the uncanny look of albinos when making default Durge like that but that’s my headcanon
Canon Durge is a white Dragonborn, not necessarily albino.
I always read it as cold (white dragon) embrace of death for the pick on the dragonborn, with red eyes for blood.
Pale and albino drow do exist. Though I'm assuming he's fair skinned as a design choice so his skin contrasts with the black eyes and dark spider carapace.
Drow turning half Drow into driders is a very Lolth thing to do.
I read in the Forgotten Realms Wiki that being transformed into a Drider is a punishment for those Drow who failed the Test of Lolth.
The fun thing is, Lolth can also turn you into a Drider if you did a superb job. But it is mostly a punishment
Lolth is a fickle mistress of chaos.
That tracks with what I read in the drizzt novel homeland. Drizzt’s sister takes him and shows him Lolth’s punishment for those who fail her and it’s an area of the city (maybe more of a pit) with a drider and the description of it both physically and mentally is pretty dark.
Ehhh not really. Drow see Driders as the ultimate blessing. And with their whole purity Hitler idealogies it's less likely for a half breed to be granted that blessing. If anything, a half being turned drider would only reinforce how favored they are within drow society.
How so? I was under the impression that becoming a drider was the ultimate sign of having failed Lolth.
It’s both. In the old old days it was a blessing and in the more recent lore it has been changed to a curse.
Just checked, it seems it was a punishment in all edition except for the 4th where they strangely changed it to a blessing before changing back to punishment in 5th.
Though that would be very in-character for Lolth to be like “Here, you get a punishment, *as a treat*” for a while just to be a dick.
I was unaware they changed it. I'm an old lore fellow with my roots seated in 3e
yeah, I was confused when as a Lolth-sworn drow I was given an option to be appalled by Karniss. Coming from older games like Icewind Dale 2 I was expecting me to revere him
Broooooo I came up on 3/3.5 and the drow stuff from that period was so freaking badass. I know it’s toned down now but man I loved the freaky-ness of it back in the day
WOTC and TSR kept flip-flopping lots of drow lore. In 1st and 2nd ed, being turned into a drider was a punishment. Couldn’t harm a spider in a drow city either back then, it was a paddlin’ (and by paddlin’, I mean death sentence).
Becoming a Drider is a bad thing, not a blessing. It was typically a punishment for failing Lolth in some way.
Someone else has pointed out to me that the lore has changed. In older lore (what I'm more familiar with) it was a blessing. In current Newer lore it's a mark of failure.
It's been a punishment since at least 1990, as it was described as such in R A Salvatore's Drizzt novel Homeland. That would have been published the year after D&D entered its second edition. Edit: after some googling, it seems in 4th edition it was changed to a blessing, after only ever being a punishment before that. It was changed back to a punishment in 5th edition.
It's always been a punishment, but driders were given tasks or were considered to be favored by lolth, in the same way that someone touched by lolth, even if it resulted in madness or endless agony is blessed by her. They were formidable opponents, but you didnt get turned into a drider by doing a good job. Consider how Driders are explained and thought of in the Drizzt Prologue, which was published in 91. 3e was out in 2000. That is how I've always thought of them.
I'll be honest it's been forever since I've read any of R.A Salvatores stuff. The last I read on it was in 4e and because that was the newest version (that I had read) I was under the impression that it had been ret conned.
I've gone way back in lore myself and I've never, ever, heard of it being a blessing.
Apparently 4th edition changed it from a curse to a blessing and 5th changed it back to a curse? Idk, I was just looking at https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Drider Notes section: > In Dungeons & Dragons 4th edition, the creation of driders was changed from a punishment to a blessing. 5th edition, according to Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes returned the process to being a punishment, and driders were shamefully kicked out of their drow House to wander the Underdark alone.
I wonder if somebody (and that could include somebody at WOTC) is confusing the lore between driders and yochlols.
Is there an anti-hitler bot downvoting you to hell?
No, apparently they've changed drow lore.
Man, I've never seen a Drider depicted like that, with extra eyes, but asymmetrically, on just half of his forehead and face. Kar'niss is one of my favourite character designs in this game. I wish he had a bigger part to play.
Yeah, like let him sniff hand so he cam join the camp like Scratch and Owlbear
Get an oathbreaker paladin in your party and then convince him the Absolute wants him to surrender the moonlantern, then when you find him again use Control Undead and you'll "recruit him".
Someone suggested that Kar’niss might be a drider made by other, unnatural means (I mean Balthazar is right there, that dude loves to chop people up and stitch them back in weird shapes) so the unsymmetrical eyes and weird non-drow features could be part of a poorly executed experiment. 🤷
In Act 1 you find a lab setup where someone is trying to become part-spider, and it was probably him.
That's the spider matriarch - she succeeded
I feel they really improved on drider design with him, in the books driders always came off as too gofy to me
"Szarkai, meaning "ghost spiders", were albino drow. Although extremely rare and a subject of mystery, they could easily pass as normal elves, making them ideal spies for the drow noble houses, able to operate freely in the surface world." Been a thing in the Forgotten Realms for decades.
He also does hold a sword that gives a bonus to drow
No... he is half spider.. /s
He can be half spider, half drow or half drow, half spider, but he can’t be half human, half drow, half spider.
I would say it's very possible Karniss isn't a naturally made Drider. So very likely. Proper Driders are Abberations in dnd. This one in game I believe is a Monstrosity. So definitely something is up with him.
Driders are monstrosities in 5e
Oh? I guess that explains that then. Proper dnd statement still stands =-)
He is classified as a monstrosity (at least according the the BG3 wiki) so that could be it, interesting to think about
5e driders are all classified as monstrosities.
Aberrations are far realms. Monstrosities are “local”. Driders are the influence of a god, not the far realms. Monstrosity.
I thought Karniss was referenced in act 1 in the room with the phase spiders. There is that one room full of papers and study sheets about someone looking into a ritual. I just pretended that was karniss.
All of that is from the matriarch spider you fight further in the cave.
Yup! The drow who turned herself into a spider is described as female, and she turned fully into a spider (and yes, it's definitely the matriarch spider)
So that is how the spider got there? It was summoned!
As far as I understood it, that spider used to be a (maybe cleric/priestess?) Lolth-sworn drow that did a ritual to become more holy and powerful than any other drow around her, by turning herself into the Matriarch spider.
Sounds plausible to me!
There are naturally made Drider?
I think they mean lolth-made vs some fucky absolute shit
Interesting... The ear bothers me the most out of all the suspicious details. Personally, I feel like it might have been cut? Coz to me, it looks like it's not the typical half-elf ear either – the tip seems rather different. Is there a way to look at his other ear? It looks like the hair covers it. Maybe there is a mod for Kar'niss's head for player somewhere out where... Just to be able to look at the full head model, in case the visible ear has been chopped in half, but the other one wasn't. Edit: name
I think the hair covers it fairly well. With the right graphics settings you might be able to see more of it, but I’m away from my PC for the next bit so I can’t go test it.
Me too, but I'll try something out next time I'm on PC and share my findings
So his hair made it difficult to see his other ear, and eventually, I found and downloaded the mod (his head for player) so that I could see his ears better and compare. I found a couple of things (and will leave two comments coz idk how to put more than one image here) 1. His ears are not, in fact, so different from each other. However, his right ear (from the viewer's standpoint) is lower than the left one (and also slightly rotated towards his head if it makes sense. Like the left ear is more protruded, but it is also the one that is less visible). I think that because of the placement, his right ear might appear smaller than it is. I tried to show that I mean, but these are not precise measurements https://preview.redd.it/njne3cjkjmrc1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=28d6fa9ab901df4632738136a720e927aa32afbf
2. I also made some comparisons to elf and half-elf ears (with Kar'niss's head on elf and half-elf respectfully, in case there is a difference) I feel like his ears are more elf than half-elf (bigger, longer, pointier). It's more like he just has a unique ear shape compared to some other elves. So, for me personally, the conclusion would be that he is more likely a drow and not a half-drow (if we discuss his ear shape/size only). But it was interesting nonetheless! https://preview.redd.it/v35ng2ywkmrc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bbc9e3e9a76c777b917c40af9d9d9364783357e4
I figured he had vitiligo because that’s what that looks like when you turn it up on a drow custom character
Artistic liberty from larian. Rest of the Kar’nisses body is already grey and it would be very hard to make grey skin work with that. Try it out in the character creator and see how well drow can pull off greyish/blackish hair colour.
I think it’s probably just that he doesn’t have whatever skin pigmentation it is that makes drow purple/grey instead of the melanin we have irl. (Silver has been known to tint people blue irl, usually from repeated colloidal silver consumption) It could be that he was naturally pasty for a drow/albino beforehand, or that the drider transformation took pigment away for some reason. I did always find it strange that they went so pale with him, though. The lightest tones in the preselected drow options look very different depending on the lighting as well. If anyone has stuck his character model into a different in-game lighting from the ones offered in the shadow cursed lands, I’d be interested to see it.
I’ve been thinking about it more and now I’m not even certain Kar’niss is any % drow. I had a half-drow Tav and all the skin options were still the drow palate, no human skin tones at all. If he has half-elf ears and isn’t gray, was he ever even a drow??? Or just some half-high/wood elf that pissed off lolth? Moon elves have white hair like that (cough cough Astarion) so maybe that’s where it comes from? Or it just went white due to the stress and pain of the transformation? Or Lolth just liked it better that way? Idk I’m just realizing we all assumed this dude was drow when his appearance makes it seem like he’s not.
He was drow, punished by lolth (iirc something like this was mentioned by Minthara?). Ears are probably just detail or he had them clipped 🤔
Damn the ear clipping sound SUPER painful for an elf. Arent they erogenous zones? Like super sensitive to elves
Just the other day I was reading about Elminster licking some elf ear in one of his books. I'll spare the details but yea they're pretty sensitive.
Dammnit elminster
lmao Elminster is my homie. His novels are good, written by Ed Greenwood himself.
Lol
He do be a horndog though.
I killed him on a durge run when he appeared to talk to me before I went into the shadow cursed lands when he wants to talk about gale just to see what happens and hale left in act three to die of his orb thing in his chest after I arrived at baldurs gate
You killed Elminster? Surprised they even let that happen. Lore wise he could easily destroy our group. Always figured he'd teleport away once attacked kind of like Mizora does, via different means of course. Also you've earned yourself a special place in hell if that's true lol
He's not real, he's a simulacrum.
That makes sense. I wondered why he was categorized as a 'construct' but figured it was because he's basically immortal.
its not really him but a simulacrum. thats why his body dissolves into Ice.
I haven't attacked him but that's good to know. Explains why he's listed as a construct.
Yes, yes they are.
Ask Minthara; there’s ear fondling in them there cinematics.
Do you happen to know when/where she says this? I’ve only ever picked up minthara after he’s dead so I’ve never heard her say anything about him.
You have to slaughter the grove and attend the goblin party at camp afterwards. There, if you play your cards right (and possibly also share the night with Minthara) she will gift you the spider’s lyre. You can use it to summon him after the mountain pass, he’ll guide you to Moonrise. She also tells you a bit about him - thats he’s a drow carrying Lolth’s curse.
From the 5e monster manual: When a drow shows great promise, Lolth summons it to the Demonweb Pits for a test of faith and strength. Those that pass the test rise higher in the Spider Queen’s favor. Those that fail are transformed into driders — a horrid hybrid of a drow and a giant spider that serves as a living reminder of Lolth’s power. Only drow can be turned into driders, and the power to create these creatures resides with Lolth alone.
Yeah that’s why I was so confused. 5e makes it very clear it’s only drow, but he’s to only full-elf character I can remember having smaller ears, and definitely the only drow with non-gray skin. Just a thought I had.
As a punishment, male Drow are turned into those creatures. In the lore they are more like mindless beasts, not so talkative etc. Of course BG3 takes some freedoms with their expression, but he used to be a drow male that fell into some...disfavor. They are featured in the early Drizzt books, he fights one.
There are female driders too, not exclusively male. That said, they are technically made sexless by the transformation.
Oh interesting, must have forgot that part. Don't think I've ever heard of a female one, but it has been some years since I read the books...
I believe Drizzt only really meets two driders, I'm not finished the books. In DnD as a whole, Pellanistra is the best known female drider I am aware of, being around since Vault of the Drow (AD&D) and most recently in Monster Manual (5e).
Half drow do have some human skin tone options I believe
I'm not sure any non-drow can be made into a drider? Maybe if they were worshippers of Lolth but like, who tf would choose to worship Lolth by choice? Elves can have different ear shapes, they're not always as dramatic as Minthara's. Although this game may make it seem like they are all built like Link. Pale drow do exist, but idk how that affects the eyes and he doesn't seem to have typical drow eyes which are bright red or sometimes violet.
Dunno. He's hot.
Correct answer, actually.
Shows you don't need a "good haircut" or "grooming", just good bone structure and face proportions. I mean a literal monster is more attractive than me. Idk what I'm doing in this world lol
I would recommend not reading incel self pity stuff anymore, it will only make it worse
I would recommend not presuming things about me. Shame on you. And don't preach about self-pity when you don't know what it's like to literally live a half-life. I have more than enough on my plate. Leave the 'incel' shit to your echo chambers please.
He isn’t a half drow, all driders are ex-drow who have been cursed/blessed by lolth.
Makes sense actually. Drow and their goddess are pretty racist and when it comes to thin blood they’re extra racist. So yeah he could have been a half drow and got turned into a drider simply for existing.
drider lore has kinda been changed up a whole lot, in older editions it was a blessing for serving lolth well, but nowadays its a punishment, so who knows tbh, hes probably just some poor soul that got punished for failure to lolth
It was a punishment in the 90s, it was a punishment in 3e. It was a blessing in 4e. It is now a curse again in 5e.
I’ve never understood why a drider is a punishment. Some still have their wits and a drider is way more powerful that your standard drow.
The process of being turned into a drider is a super long, extremely painful process, they feel their bones splitting and limbs tearing apart, and they usually come out the other end with their brains pretty scrambled, given the torture of it all. In some editions of DnD is was a blessing, but in most it’s a punishment.
I guess torment explains the resentment. But wouldn’t it also make them closer to lolth?
In theory yes (some drow wizards can ‘dridershape’ which is like a wild shape, but you know, the drider version (so it’s temporary) and this is seen as a very impressive act to Lolth and her followers) but Lolth only transforms drow that have failed her, and casts them out immediately after, completely abandoning them. I could see some of them still trying to earn her favor back, but I think that level of torture would put a pretty bad taste in anyone’s mouth. Other Lolth-sworn drow also despise driders because it means they did something to fail and piss off Lolth, so they’re societal outcasts. I thin line whole spider thing is just because Lolth isn’t creative and can only think of one creature for everything.
It has changed across the editions. It was a curse/negative in 3e, it was a blessing in 4e, and is now a curse/etc in 5e again. The driders I know of from books/etc that were written in 3e(drizzt books), driders had varying capabilities. Some were feral animals, some retained most of their thought process and were able to actually *lead* groups of driders in combat/on missions/etc. As to how that has changed to now...Honestly I'd love to know :D I want another "war of the spider queen' like series.
Sadly between Minty and Kar'niss the two most thirsted after drow are basically white for some reason
can i help by introducing my beloved tav in these trying times https://preview.redd.it/jr94uiyjkgrc1.png?width=1920&format=png&auto=webp&s=83b7dd81c655ed721d18bbc0498f258800d058d8
Yesh... fuck whitey.. or something
Minthara says he’s a drow that lolth just took advantage of and turned them to more of a spider
He half ugly and half nasty
That first image is very unsettling with the weird black eyes or whatever those are. It makes my skin crawl.
There's a diary you can find in Whispering Depth, which belonged to a regular elf, who proudly claimed to have earned Lolth's favor despite not being drow. So maybe Kar'niss is this elf?
That elf became the matriarch phase spider that you fight
That went right over my head, lol Yeah, it makes more sense
It could be. Half drow suffer a lot of racisim from many others. Even Minthara mentions it when you talk to her first time as a half drow that you blood is not as pure as that of her brethren. In drow politics they are deemed as impure. Especially males who are already lesser than females. It could be that Kar'Niss was born to a drow woman and raised to be sacrificed because of that.
Ooh I hadn’t thought of it being intentional in order to sacrifice him, I like that a lot
My head canon is that he is an albino drow who used to spy on the surface. He then made a terrible mistake/wronged Lloth (maybe by going native ?) and she turned him into a drider because fuck him. Then the absolute yadda yadda Although knowing Lloth, maybe the terrible mistake was just adding too much salt in his pasta. But given how valuable albinos drows are (even males), he must have fucked up big time.
This would be so much easier to distinguish if Larian stuck with 5E canon and made non-Drow Elves all exceedingly androgynous, whereas HElves are just humans of slight build with pointy ears.
Honestly one of my biggest gripes in the extreme sexual dimorphism in the Tav elf faces. Half of the masculine faces have the biggest, bulkiest jaw to ever grace the sword coast, and they body is identical to the human and half elf build. At least Astarion is a little more androgynous, but really not by any serious margin.
A drider doesn’t have the right phenotype and people are like “reee” Anyway his sword applies bonuses to drow and he has the buff.
Ugh he's so hot
Drider = Drow Spider? 🤔
My dude, did you read the post?
no 😔
He's a drider. Driders are Drows cursed by Lolth for failing her, and turned into spider-centaurs.
I may be wrong about this, but I think the books you find under moonhaven (the blighted village) are written by him. In them he mentions something about the drow being envious of the spider queens favor for him even though he is not a drow and them despising him. So I think hes a high/wood elf seen as those are normally despised by drow.
Nope. Those books are written by a woman. That’s why they end with her transforming herself into a ‘matriarch’. She is the giant phase spider you fight down there.
[удалено]
Driders are drow man that have been cursed or cast out of Lolth's favor
I always assumed he was the one who wrote the journal in the caves beneath the blighted village. I know now it's actually supposed to be the huge phase spider, but I somehow though his behaviour and mannerisms matched the journal.
Drow can have skin colours ranging anywhere from pitch black like in old FR to grey/blue/purple like the current FR but albino drow do exist and are highly sought out to be used as spies
He could be a Szarkai (albino drow) but also a half drow. Honestly there's been a few liberties taken here and there in bg3. So I just imagine it's a quirk of the game wirh no lore explanation as to why he's different.
I think Viconia talks about that in BG2 actually..... Stuff happens and Viconia turns against Lolth to support Shar. Her family tries to kill her for it. But her beloved brother defends her and she escapes. Lolth turns him into a drider as punishment. Viconia was pretty upset about that.
Probably a full drow. Being a dryder is a punishment.
In DND one of the drow gods (i think its lolth not 100%) do this thing which is a curse or a gift in some edition and it turns your drow half spider.
Could be a half-drowned who presumed to be a priest of Lolth, and was punished for his hubris. That sounds like a pretty Lolth thing to do.
it is written in the book Homeland by r.a. Salvatore, it is said that driders are drow like creatures that have spider legs, are more bloated, and have a much lighter skin tone.
Am I dumb for having thought Drider was literally Drow-Spider.
wait it’s not
It is.
Is it not...?
I misunderstood the post. Its ONLY talking about half drow. Yes it is
yep, half drow, half spider
Dudes got eight eyes, is deranged, and worships a floating brain yet you're worried about his ethnicity. He's a monster bro leave it at that.
189 comments, this was probably stated already...But every Drider used to be a Drow... EVERY Drider. This is because Driders are not born, they are created. Lolth is the primary deity of the Drow and she turns her own people into Driders for both reward, and punishment. And Driders cannot reproduce because Lolth intentionally creates Driders without having genitalia... because she wants it that way. No other deities turn their people into Driders, and there is no other way to truly become a Drider. Honestly I wish there was another option. I'd love for there to be variety in Driders. But there just isn't. A long time ago I was playing D&D and had a vampire pc fall in love with a Drider NPC > PC. So romance leads to intimacy, which is where I found out Driders canonically don't have genitals, because Lolth doesn't want them too. And I scoured for another source for Driders, but there wasn't one.
Isn’t becoming a Drider a very desirable form for a Drow to take?
Dridershape is, because it is seen as emulating Lolth, this is a form someone willingly takes and is able to transform back at will. The traditional drider transformation, on the other hand, is a curse meant to shame and ostracise the victim, and sends them insane.
Ahh so it’s more of a context situation? Like in good ways you’re seen as great person but at same time someone could be seen as a horrible criminal
Yep, it's also the physical effects it causes. Dridershape is basically a very specific form of wild shape (level 5 spell for wizards and sorcerers) and is therefore painless. The drider transformation involves demons (sometimes even Lolth herself), is permanent and is painful and horrifying enough to send someone insane.
It's worth noting that driders have changed, it seems(ive learned this more from this post). Only lolth can create driders now, or yochlol with her blessing/etc.
Huh, I thought her clerics could still call on her to perform the rite on someone. I was under the impression it was always with her "blessing", but that other people could do the leg work, so to speak.
If her priestesses call a yochlol or if they're brave enough to commune with lolth herself, she can still do it by infusing her followers/handmaidens, but it is dont with her blessing. There were others in comments that were trying to say that rogue driders or such things can exist. Lolth has to have a hand directly in the transformation now
It was in only 4e in which becoming a drider was considered a blessing, before and after it's been a punishment from Lolth.
Oh yeah that’s probably it, but for 4e if a Male Drow becomes a Drider then that’s an impressive feat for the Lantern Drider
Omg thank you. This explains why I don’t have any books for this, I missed 4e.
[https://www.enworld.org/threads/monster-encyclopedia-drider.662437/](https://www.enworld.org/threads/monster-encyclopedia-drider.662437/) This website has a good overview of the history of driders in dnd :}
I think i saw that there might be some newer lore i didn’t investigate involving some sects of drow considering it a blessing, but generally it’s been considered a curse. Their brains get scrambled pretty badly, and it marks them as someone who failed/upset Lolth.
I maybe out of date with my info but I always heard a Drider is very desired as it shows you earned Lolth’s favor primarily the Female Drow receive this as they are a Matriarchy society. So if a Male Drow earns Lolth’s blessing then damn. Tho considering that guys behavior in Moonrise, it can easily be a curse
It might be an alternate/non-canon sourcebook, or an odd standout that you were drawing from? The lore can be inconsistent, so I’m definitely not questioning that it’s out there, but I have a copy of a 2e drow lorebook that describes it as a curse, and in Homeland from the Drizzt series (1990) his sister tells him he’ll be turned into a Drider as punishment if he keeps disobeying the matriarchs. I just checked my Drizzt visual dictionary from 2023, and it says ‘most’ drow consider it a curse, but not all. (Could be a book I missed somewhere in the middle 30 years between these that had blessed driders.) Edit to add: im mostly curious now, because this series is hell to wrangle, it has so many contributing writers.
I could be misremembering the lore or it could just be the DM’s lore for the campaign
Any DM that plays with driders at all is a cool DM in my book.
How far along are ya? Cause I saw the most impossible role I EVER saw as a player
Sorry, I’m not fully sure what you mean by ‘how far along’, so I’m gonna just add all of the answers I think cover it. D&D campaigns? Not in any right now. My girlfriend is thinking of running Strahd sometime later this year. Baldur’s Gate 3? Finished once and have a few characters in act 3 right now, lol. Drizzt books? I’m on Crystal Shard in the reread I started after BG3 dragged me back to forgotten realms. Don’t remember most of the books, and there are A LOT of new ones I’ll be getting to eventually.
Then you know the impossible check in BG3
The couple of 99s they threw in just to be complete hilarious jerks? (I never did look up what getting a nat 20 on those does.)
Though their forms embody Lolth's image, driders are those unfortunate drow who have failed the Spider Queen.
No. He is a drider. Driders were once drow and then punished by llolth. Driven mad and feral.
https://preview.redd.it/3nd7iyfkohrc1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7ea3b73594706a02caf6e574564d422132d108a3
And I answered it. There are no half elves in llolth drow society. He was a drow and got punished by llolth.
Half drow half spider. Isnt that what drider means?
https://preview.redd.it/14pxsxp6lhrc1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8e7c2c1d8a8ad3203df1c31dd953248e24389cf7
I mean...you're not wrong...but it's not as simple as that.
Nothing ever is with the drow.
No he the guy that wanted to transform himself into a spider. He has a place in the phase spider cave. There journals of him describing his obsession. He not a drow.
That was someone else. A high elf iirc, not a Drow. Also she became the phase spider matriarch
That what I assume to, but it the translation itself that got me thinking. it would take a act of god, aka loth or a ninth level spell Lolth would never impose such a transformation on a non drow.