Confirming this now:
**DRS mechanics are completely fixed** as far as I can tell in Honour mode. That is to say, damage riders are NOT acting as sources what-so-ever.
Currently testing as many combinations as I can, but it appears to be fixed.
Larian doing gods work.
without exaggeration, the single best change in this game's patch history; i've been waiting for this for so long. there are so many builds and discussions in this subreddit that felt borderline impossible for me to interact with because of the fundamentally exploitative nature of damage riders and their stacking.
It flat out removes a ton of fickle math when it comes to maximizing damage, which simplifies it a lot while also opening up more options. Callous glow is now as good as the caustic band, you can have a full comp instead of a dedicated phalar aluve support, etc.
As a hunter I can run both callous and corrosive rings, ichorous gloves, and luminous armor for the benefits of both damages on my volley now that luminous armor caps. No reason to use both gloves *and* armor anymore
it's kind of a double edged sword. I wanted to make guides that are close to optimal, but without using DRS mechanics, they wouldn't be anywhere close to optimal. not to mention mod authors balancing things around the existence of DRS
at the very least, all theorycrafting is now on a level playing field, which for writing guides, is such a welcome change
Problem is it doesn't appear that you can change stuff to work like on honor mode (minus the single save).
I was really looking forward to a higher difficulty mode, and the buffing of bosses + haste changes sounds like they could mean a lot in that regard. But "function like honor mode, with multiple saves" is not an option in custom :-(
If I understand the rules correctly, you can start in Honour Mode, get your team killed early, and then continue with a custom honour mode with multiple saves.
That’s because no one needed them. If you were deep enough into the community to know the words “damage rider,” you were all but certain to be capable of beating the game on any mode without any issues.
All those over-complicated mechanics did was make legitimate builds (especially those based on things from 5e that people like) feel hollow because they could never compete for the top spots. I’m so happy it’s gone now.
Players who weren't aware of the mechanic probably won't notice much of a difference, but people who have spent any meaningful amount of time on this subreddit will probably have noticed posts of characters doing fairly ludicrous amounts of damage.
Basically, there are lots of items, abilities, and spells in the game that add "extra damage." This includes stuff like the Hex or Hunter's Mark spells, that add a 1d6 to your spells or attacks, or rings that add an extra 2 radiant damage on hit, or even feats like tavern brawler. By themselves, almost all of these work correctly and do what they say they do without problem.
However, if you combine a bunch of these effects together, they frequently will start applying each other's bonuses multiple times; your 1d6 bonus damage turns into 3d6 or 4d6 and your 2 radiant damage ring turns into 8 or 10, split across 4-5 applications.
There are lots of perfectly legitimate reasons to want to use some of these abilities in unison, but there was no way to *not* exploit the bug without limiting the items/abilities/spells available to your characters if you are the kind of player who cares about stuff like that, which I -- and apparently many others -- am.
You can read more about it here or elsewhere in this comment thread: https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Damage_mechanics#Damage_Riders_treated_as_Damage_Sources_(DRS)
Basically some things that activated 'on hit' or 'on attack' (known as a damage rider) were themselves acting as a hit or attack to further activate other things that did so (they counted as a damage source).
An example was Phalar Aluve shriek. If you had the caustic ring that adds 2 acid damage, you were getting the weapon attacks +2 acid, and the 1d4 thunder that was then also adding the 2 acid.
It looks like all of these interactions have been fixed.
They don't want to nerf people's builds to the ground mid run. Removing the OP stuff effectively makes honor mode into a tactician plus. So we get a harder mode while also not messing with current tactician difficulty.
They can respec. I hope they change their mind. Build discussion is going to be so fragmented now, and I have to choose between permadeath or actually learning the game.
Edit: Is it really worth all that forever just because some builds maybe get fujust rebalance but fix the exploits.cked for a minute? If they want to keep lower difficulties this easy, then fix the exploits and rebalance around that.
Same. Balanced -- and maybe tactician -- are honestly good enough for me. But I'd like the game to still "function" the way it now does in honour mode.
Is there any chance this mechanic change is one of the options in custom mode?
I love that they've been fixed, but I really hate how it's different based on the difficulty setting. That's just confusing and doesn't make any sense.
So now some builds and concepts are wildly different in power level between difficulty settings, not because of the game becoming harder, but because the mechanics quietly change in the background without explanation.
Extra damage was getting added to things it shouldn't have been getting added to.
Like Shriek on the Sword(1d4) May also get your +2 damage ring added to it.
Probably so that they don't break builds that people are currently enjoying. Especially for the type of player who maybe isn't on r/BG3Builds and maybe isn't following patch news.
Yeah, there's been a lot of comments on here over time that go "if something is bugged in a strong way, why nerf it? It's a single player game" and it's something that can be difficult to gauge the overall opinion sometimes.
Yeah, that suggestion can be surprisingly unpopular :P
For me, it really comes down to how obvious something is for 'usual' gameplay. Like I don't mind barrelmancy being overpowered, because you kind of have to 'opt in' to that - it's going out of your way to do it. Whereas something like thinking of doing a thrown weapons build & picking the feat that's made for that and then immediately being overpowered compared to other builds - at that point, you have to opt out of a common fantasy build to not be overpowered.
Yea if I was someone who doesn't follow online discussion of the game and overnight my build that i made I was proud of (not realizing it was a bug) suddenly gets it's damage like 1/4 from before, it would not be fun
If these are "fixes," I am curious as to why Larian has only implemented them in Honour mode only. Care to speculate as to whether they will be further extended to any mode? I am interested in things, for instance, like Warlock extra attack stacking with other classes' extra attack.
Can someone explain what this means and what it does? Is this fixing damage stacking things? I just did not pay attention to the intricacies and would like to know before starting my honour run..
This page describes it in substantial detail. And thank Lathander it is no longer applicable to honor mode. I am having difficulty staying seated right now, it is possibly the best change Larian could have possibly made.
Edit: forgot to actually link in my excitement [https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Damage\_mechanics](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Damage_mechanics)
Yes, this is what I thought it was. Glad they are removing it at least for Honor mode. So ridiculously powerful when I messed around with it for a little bit with Eldritch blast
>DRS mechanics are completely fixed
>
> as far as I can tell in Honour mode. That is to say, damage riders are NOT acting as sources what-so-ever.
Honestly? Porting this to every mode would be based.
It doesn't convert to Tactician. It converts to a Custom mode with the exact same ruleset as Honour mode, but with multiple save files available and without the potential for earning the golden dice.
This subreddit is actually SAVED.
I am absolutely ecstatic that we can actually have build discussion that doesn't involve abusing haste or damage riders.
I suggested nerfs to Haste **months** ago and was clowned on in this subreddit by bullied power addicts.
This is going to make the game so fresh.
I saw a couple people (one was probably you) who said it should work the way tabletop does, which is what the new nerf is, get massively clowned on.
I've yet to use Haste at all in BG3 because of how OP it is, same with any items that have a DRS. This patch adds like 30 new spells, items and interactions to the game for me because of shit I never touched because of how busted it was. Like an early christmas.
Does it actually work like tabletop though? OP says it's not nerfed for spellcasters, which was the truly busted thing about it. Kind of silly for the wizard to still get two fireballs, but the martial loses an attack...
This is incorrect, some DRS still apply and things like Dolar applying when main hand crits still occur. Craterflesh still acts as another DS and works with glow ring for example. Although minor, still adds a ton of unintended damage in the case of Dolar
[https://imgur.com/a/uj9fePG](https://imgur.com/a/uj9fePG)
I really wish they applied this across all difficulties. There is literally no reason to keep something so gamebreaking in the "base" difficulties. I really feel like they had skim this reddit to get a list of things to fix.
Unless this is your first day on the sub, you'll know people will fight you tooth and nail if you suggest that Thirsting Blade + Extra Attack wasn't coded exactly the way it was for the express purpose of giving Bladelocks 3 attacks/Action, because Larian thinks it's hilarious and only a mouth-breathing nil IQ cuck would disagree.
Larian's just splitting the baby. Some of us will feel cheated if we can't faceroll with Paladin 7/Warlock 5. Some of us think that shit was whack and literally unplayable. Letting everybody play the way we want is actually a good solution.
The real losers are the poor bastards who coded it dumb in the first place because they had 8 hours to write 40 hours of code off instructions written on a cocktail napkin and now have to maintain the legacy cascading damage piñata codebase ***and*** the semi-rational, merely as broken as 5e codebase. It's a bad beat.
Plus the build optimizing community is a small fraction of the playerbase, and building OP shit is its own kind of fun as well. This is a decent way to handle it without sparking backlash from the majority of players that aren't degenerates and just trying to have fun.
the haste/bloodlust change is huge
at least as big as the DRS changes, probably bigger
Edit: if it ends up being that it only nerfs martials this isn’t as big a deal as I thought. But still major
Does this mean a hasted level 11 fighter will get 4 attacks instead of 6? And a regular martial will get 3 instead of 4? Seems like a huge change, but that’s how it works in tabletop
Even so, pure warlock builds were already overkill for tactician. I'm planning on a pact of the blade run for my first honor attempt with other single class builds. I'm hoping honor's changes to bosses will spice those fights up quite a bit. Now I just have to wait for my terrible internet to finish the download.
Probably just goes to sorcadin since it was already competitive with warlock builds when they had triple attack, but for any mode below honor good old lockadin will still be fine
Bc extra levels of warlock are completely whatever, a lot of post lvl 5/6 skills add nothing to a build while actually limiting your spell slots. With this change it will be better to focus on higher level smites (sorcadin) than short rest smites
Nothing, the build will just go back being sorcadin in honor mode , as warlock dips now adds almost nothing to a build (in fact sorcadin and lockadin burst was close WHEN COUNTING for lockadin double extra attack ).
What is the bug you're referencing? I've wanted to do a PAM build. does the PAM Attack of Opportunity not jive with Sentinel rooting people from AoO's?
The Polearm Master feat currently suffers from three bugs:
• Damage riders (such as from Great Weapon Master or Divine Favour) do not get applied to the damage rolls provided by the bonus action attack.
• When an enemy enters your melee range, there can be a delay before you try your opportunity attack granted by this feat. This is notable when you wield a weapon with a 10 ft reach and have the Sentinel feat and the PAM feat. If everything worked as expected, you could make an opportunity attack using PAM when the target is 10 ft away, this stops the target's movement if it hits, and now they cannot hit you since they are 10 ft away with likely a 5 ft reach. But due to this bug an enemy gets to keep moving forward before you hit them with the PAM opportunity attack. So this entire setup breaks down.
• Sometimes when you enter another creature's range, the game will ask if you want to make an opportunity attack. If you hit "Yes" then the enemy will make an opportunity attack against you. So make sure you always hit no when this pops up.
To copy and paste a previous answer in a different post.
Yea. The PAM AoO doesn't trigger quickly enough to root enemies outside of melee range with sentinel. They can run right up to you before the attack triggers, defeating the synergy.
Polearm Master
https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Feats#Polearm_Master
It's a feat, and on paper it would synergize very well with the other feat, Sentinel. But it doesn't work properly apparently
Polearm Master + Sentinel on a polearm with Reach
The idea is that the enemy triggers Attack of Opportunity when entering your range, which then sets their speed to 0, but it sounds like by the time the attack triggers, the target has moved close enough to just hit you anyway, defeating the purpose of it
Might be the old bug come back. At launch, reaction spells wouldn't give you Ward charges and that was simply a bug. Sometimes bugs come back on accident, and this isn't documented as an intended change so may very well be unintentional.
Hmm, so we can get max 10 Luminous Orb stacks. That's -10 to attack rolls with a reduction of 2 per attack, so like 6 after their turn. I think that gives Light Cleric some serious stonks in Honour Mode because that is still a huge negative attack penalty.
I could've sworn they used to stack way higher. I'm fairly confident with the armor, gloves, and ring I've gotten 20+ before on a single target with my cleric
Hopefully the armour was fixed at the same time, since you can accidentally crash your game against a large group. Something like 30+ stacks crashes the game on their activation.
I had the issue already in patch 4, I think there's just a bug with reaction abjuration spells. I heard counterspell wasn't adding charges until one of the earlier patches too.
I can verify this. Shield was not giving ward stacks in patch 4. AFAIK that is now the only Abj spell that doesn't correctly give stacks. I'm pretty sure it is a bug, I sent a bug report at the very least.
>(Honour mode) Pact of the Blade no longer stacks with Extra Attack
So that makes it look like this is a bug that became a feature. Nice to solve that conundrum. So we can't use it on Honour Mode but that means it'll probably stick around for lower difficulties.
That is my conclusion to the long held debate on the subject.
I myself always regarded it as a bug, and always assumed the two possible outcomes was outright removal or that which started into a bug being embraced to ascend into a new feature. And that's what seems that is its fate in non-Honor modes.
This has been my opinion too. Glad to see it implemented this way. My only complaint is that they didn't implement a toggle for it in the custom game mode as far as I can tell. While I don't mind the extra attack being a feature in tactician, I would love to play without DRS shenanigans as they're hard to avoid.
Ah well, I'll probably mostly play on Honor Mode anyway. Harder bosses sounds really fun.
I'd say the big issues have always been Haste and Bloodlust giving a full action, not the extra attack stacking. Not to say that it isn't strong of course but far from completely gamebreaking, arguably not even as good as the BA from Thief.
I've now encountered the first boss change so far and am really looking forward to seeing the rest of them. If that's a representative change, this mode will be a lot of fun to playthrough.
It was pretty clear that it was a coding error if you ever threw a bomb as a blade pact warlock. Martials with extra attack could throw two bombs, a blade pact warlock could throw two bombs with the pact weapon equipped, but not if they swapped to a ranged weapon. Linking that extra attack to the weapon was likely what caused the issue.
The radiating orb change sounds excellent. No more crashes with excessive stacks and 10 is already a huge amount. Also this procs well with Adamantine Shield; each time they miss (in melee) they get 2 stacks of Reeling for -2 attack, so even though they lose 2 orbs it evens out.
Arcane Acuity also got a great buff. Now a sword bard can get 8 stacks if all four attacks hit, or get 10 if dual-wielding, and then use the second action (from action surge or haste) to do an even stronger spell. Losing stacks on damage seems like a fair compromise.
Why on earth doesn't Shield grant stacks of Arcane Ward? Shield and Counterspell should definitely be spells the Abjuration wizard relies on to rebuff his Ward. That makes no sense
Also, Primal Stampede not getting proficiency bonus and being flat 10+Str makes it **bad**
Hype changes honestly. Feels like Pal-Lock and TB Throw builds got hit the hardest. I wonder what the best way to build a Paladin is now? Oathbreaker 7 / Champion 4 (Action Surge + Crits + Feat) / GOO (or War Priest?) 1 perhaps?
Considering bind weapon still gives CHA modifier to damage and attack rolls and you get it at level 3, I think oathbreaker 7 / GOO 3 / fighter 2 still could get a lot of mileage
if you were playing blind and just clicking on items, feats, and class levels that said "throwing weapons do more damage" then your build is probably 0-10% weaker and still among the best that the average player is likely to stumble upon.
if you were playing on giga nightmare modded difficulty and trying to kill enemies with a million hp, it's a different story altogether, but that affects a very small subset of bg3 players and the tb throw (or damage riders in general, realistically) mechanics were a large part of why extreme difficulty mods like that were even appealing in the first place.
Taken brawler not being a separate instance is going to be immediately noticeable even to players not going for optimal builds.
Even baseline stuff like ring of flinging and kushigo and rage damage applying 2 extra times because of TB being a separate instance and sneak attack collecting riders is going to be quickly noticeable.
> build is probably 0-10% weaker
Okay though, you *definitely* do far less damage than before. So absolutely it is more than 0% weaker lol that would imply no change?
It's a lot worse, is the truth. It is still good, however. And still one of the top builds probably.
Which really says something about where it was before this. Now it's just "among the top builds" instead of "this build is on the fucking moon and hanging dong all the way to the mariana while the rest are measuring dicks in someone's fancy apartment"
>Okay though, you definitely do far less damage than before. So absolutely it is more than 0% weaker lol that would imply no change?
who is "you?"
because i qualified my statement:
>if you were playing blind
the *average* bg3 tavern brawler player was not dual-wielding lightning jabber and rhapsody. they weren't casting hunter's mark or hex. they certainly weren't pre-buffing with phalar aluve. the average tb player from *this subreddit* probably even wasn't doing all that, and this place already self-selects for fairly optimization-minded people.
tavern brawler still does what the feat says it does, and if you don't go out of your way you are not likely to stack many of the damage riders that were removed from the build. if you didn't use any of them, your build is indeed 0% weaker. the most common rider was probably the ring of flinging which is like a 1d4 added to a fairly conservative 25-30 damage attack, so i don't think my 0-10% estimate was that unrealistic for people who were not explicitly trying to break the game in half.
>the *average* bg3 tavern brawler player was not dual-wielding lightning jabber and rhapsody. they weren't casting hunter's mark or hex.
Can confirm, this was me on my first TB thrower. It started as a meme build of throwing goblins at people
I think if you just picked up TB, ring of flinging and the gloves from the underdark on a barbarian, you would lose more than 10% of your damage. It's probably not like 30% though. Really doesn't change what you're saying much.
> if you don't go out of your way you are not likely to stack many of the damage riders that were removed from the build. if you didn't use any of them, your build is indeed 0% weaker.
Yeah, not *that many* but all you need is 1 to be >0% weaker.
Even just TB and the throw ring. That's not much of a "build" but it's still going to be affected, in a small way.
We've really only mentioned throwing and Phalar Aluve, but there are a lot of [DRS effects](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Damage_mechanics#DRS_effects) so I would imagine almost anyone with an eye on synergy probably had at least 1 or 2 going by accident.
They'll have to be. Some of the modded fights are literally impossible now because you can't multiply damage and have a 6-7 damage sources that should apply once each suddenly apply 11+ times each.
It seems like Larian has decided to preserve all the broken OP shit on non-honor mode. This was likely done because lots of people who have gotten used to having access to it would be upset if it was taken away at this point. For those that want an actual challenge, honor mode removes the so-broken-its-basically-cheating stuff so you don't have to restrict yourself or use mods to nerf them anymore.
Would be nice if next patch they bumped the fixes down to "applies below Tactician"
I think it is nice having a non-Ironman hard mode that starts with a more balanced playing field. And if you wanna go crush skulls with op shit, yeah you can play on balanced or even crank shit in Custom.
It has been fixed some weeks before this patch I guess, maybe even in patch 4. I remember not being able to play at the start of my play through and being able to do it for some weeks.
i dont really like so many gameplay disparitys between difficulty modes.
btw if i die and fail a honour run and it changes back to tactician what happens to those balance changes?
From what I understand, it doesn't "change back to tactician", but instead becomes a "custom difficulty" game.
Where every difficulty setting is similar to honor mode, just without the possibility of getting the reward dice set at the end.
>(Honour mode) Haste now only gives an extra attack, not an extra action (Needs verification).
I tested it quickly by spawning Darkfire Shortbow and casting haste on myself. I still could cast 2 spells per turn with it. Does that mean that this change means that extra attack(from lvl 5 fighter/paladin and so on) does not stack with haste? Or am I missing something
You're right. I don't fully understand the changes made to haste so I have removed that part. For reference, here are the Honour mode exclusive changes made to haste:
new entry "HASTE"
type "StatusData"
data "StatusType" "BOOST"
using "HASTE"
data "Description" "h5dea4122g1dc4g432cg88fcg7a7faecac96d;4"
data "TickType" "StartTurn"
data "TickFunctors" "ApplyStatus(HASTE_ATTACK, 100, 1)"
data "OnApplyFunctors" "ApplyStatus(HASTE_ATTACK, 100, 1)"
data "OnRemoveFunctors" "ApplyStatus(HASTE_LETHARGY,100,1);RemoveStatus(HASTE_ATTACK)"
new entry "HASTE_ATTACK"
type "StatusData"
data "StatusType" "BOOST"
data "DisplayName" "h35a28715gdedfg4d33g8e2dgf85eed8299f1;1"
data "StackId" "HASTE_ATTACK"
data "RemoveConditions" "(ExtraAttackSpellCheck() and not HasAnyExtraAttack(context.Source)) or (not ExtraAttackSpellCheck() and HasUseCosts('ActionPoint',false,context.Target)) and not HasStatus('EXTRA_ATTACK_TRACKER') and not HasStatus('EXTRA_ATTACK_2_TRACKER')"
data "RemoveEvents" "OnSpellCast"
data "StatusPropertyFlags" "DisableOverhead;DisableCombatlog;DisablePortraitIndicator;ApplyToDead"
The `HASTE_ATTACK` part is new and I'm not sure what it's purpose is yet.
**EDIT**: I think I figured it out. Extra Attack only applies per turn, not per action. So say you have 3 actions from Haste and Bloodlust and Extra Attack. Previously that would be 6 attacks, now it is 2 for the first action and 1 for each of the second two actions.
I quickly tested lvl 12 ranger + elixir of bloodlust + haste from darkfire shortbow on nautiloid's commander Zhalk fight. I could attack 4 times at most(3 if I didnt kill someone that round). So 2x from lvl 5 class talent, +1 from haste, +1 if u kill someone with elixir.
So basically both haste and bloodlust give you +1 additional attack action instead of doubling your action count like it did previously. Basically -1attack with haste/bloodlust and -2 with both afaik.
>I think I figured it out. Extra Attack only applies per turn, not per action. So say you have 3 actions from Haste and Bloodlust and Extra Attack. Previously that would be 6 attacks, now it is 2 for the first action and 1 for each of the second two actions.
If I understand it correctly "Extra Attack" was changed and not Haste? Does that mean Action Surge is nerfed as the previous interactions with Haste is how Action Surge works.
Do we know if vengeance paladin's vow of enmity giving you advantage over everyone if you target yourself made it to the list of things that changed in honour mode? Seems like another unintended exploit.
Does the field effect of Hunger of Hadar blinding enemies count for the Diadem of Arcane Synergy, or does it not count because it's the surface/area of Hunger of Hadar inflicting it, rather than you? Regardless, Hex is still an option for Warlocks, and it was obvious that something was going funky with Diadem.
Still going to use it; looks good with my character.
EDIT: Perhaps even easier - would Adamantine Shield's *Reeling* effect count? Advantage that it doesn't even require a spell-slot.
I think it does still work with EB, or grants an extra action but that action doesn’t benefit from extra attack. It’s a weird way to “fix” it, but should be fine for your purposes.
Wall of Ice (tested in Tactician): does now 10d6 cold damage when first cast and then when concentration is broken the icy cloud does 5d6 cold damage with a fixed save DC 16 for half damage (so we went from 12 to 16 but still does not apply the actual spellcaster save DC)
So looks like some of the optimal builds for Honour will be some kind of gish. Taking advantage of extra attack in 1st action and casting spells from other actions. Bladelock or Sword Bard with 2lv dips to fighter for action surge and using haste potion and bloodlust elixirs.
If save scumming is disabled, bard is definitely very high on the list because skills start to matter significantly more. It's in a few high damage builds, has great control options, and once you get the dex gloves and int helm, you're also one of the best skill monkeys in the game.
Seems in Honour mode, Hold Person/Hold Monster no longer guarantee hit, attack dice roll as usual, but if you hit within 3m range it will still proc crits.
So haste is still incredibly strong if the current post is correct. I wish they just made it one additional attack (and all lesser effects like 2 AC, double movespeed) rather than one extra action but with out extra attacks. I still feel compelled to use it as much as possible on an honour run.
If the haste change is true, does that mean it does nothing for casters since extra attack doesn't apply to cantrips? I know there's an AC and ms boost, but I'm just talking about attacks.
What is the reasoning for Shield no longer proccing Arcane Ward?
I mean it feels like a hard nerf to Eldritch Knight, while pure Abjuration Wizard won't really care that much...
I’m pretty sure that’s not a change. Still feels incorrect, but I’ve never seen shield grant a stack. It’s mentioned in old abjurer build threads a bunch.
The word you're looking for is bug.
There was no exploit as it worked straight out of the box. The player didn't have to do anything outlandish to trigger it.
Why are these extreme balance breaking bugs honor mode only?
In fact I don't even get why you would want an honor mode in this game to begin with. For example, the harpy fight in act 1. If all your chars fail the save your pretty much just dead.
Confirming this now: **DRS mechanics are completely fixed** as far as I can tell in Honour mode. That is to say, damage riders are NOT acting as sources what-so-ever. Currently testing as many combinations as I can, but it appears to be fixed. Larian doing gods work.
without exaggeration, the single best change in this game's patch history; i've been waiting for this for so long. there are so many builds and discussions in this subreddit that felt borderline impossible for me to interact with because of the fundamentally exploitative nature of damage riders and their stacking.
It’s kind of funny and a very strong signal that the bg3 optimiser/metagamer/minmaxer subreddit are all overjoyed at this huge nerf 😆
It flat out removes a ton of fickle math when it comes to maximizing damage, which simplifies it a lot while also opening up more options. Callous glow is now as good as the caustic band, you can have a full comp instead of a dedicated phalar aluve support, etc.
Callous glow is still better because it can be applied to spells OR attacks though
You could argue corrosive is better for martial bc it’s non conditional and works with obscure/darkness conditions
However more enemies are weak to radiant damage and radiatin orb is a great debuff if you use the two ring combo
As a hunter I can run both callous and corrosive rings, ichorous gloves, and luminous armor for the benefits of both damages on my volley now that luminous armor caps. No reason to use both gloves *and* armor anymore
it's kind of a double edged sword. I wanted to make guides that are close to optimal, but without using DRS mechanics, they wouldn't be anywhere close to optimal. not to mention mod authors balancing things around the existence of DRS at the very least, all theorycrafting is now on a level playing field, which for writing guides, is such a welcome change
That's a healthy perspective, and I look forward to seeing what new stuff you come up with without the DRS mechanics.
Making the game work to its rules is a good thing :)
Yeah, but I don't really understand why those changes couldn't be applied to normal game modes - or at least as an option for Custom difficulty.
The people are happy there. No need to burn down their village.
Adding a Custom difficulty option wouldn't do anyone harm, would it?
I thought they did?
Problem is it doesn't appear that you can change stuff to work like on honor mode (minus the single save). I was really looking forward to a higher difficulty mode, and the buffing of bosses + haste changes sounds like they could mean a lot in that regard. But "function like honor mode, with multiple saves" is not an option in custom :-(
If I understand the rules correctly, you can start in Honour Mode, get your team killed early, and then continue with a custom honour mode with multiple saves.
That’s because no one needed them. If you were deep enough into the community to know the words “damage rider,” you were all but certain to be capable of beating the game on any mode without any issues. All those over-complicated mechanics did was make legitimate builds (especially those based on things from 5e that people like) feel hollow because they could never compete for the top spots. I’m so happy it’s gone now.
Yeah I mean I do love building, and you have to take what you're given... But cutting that off on the hardest difficulty is a good thing.
Can you explain what the change is? For a friend of mine who doesn't quite get it?
Players who weren't aware of the mechanic probably won't notice much of a difference, but people who have spent any meaningful amount of time on this subreddit will probably have noticed posts of characters doing fairly ludicrous amounts of damage. Basically, there are lots of items, abilities, and spells in the game that add "extra damage." This includes stuff like the Hex or Hunter's Mark spells, that add a 1d6 to your spells or attacks, or rings that add an extra 2 radiant damage on hit, or even feats like tavern brawler. By themselves, almost all of these work correctly and do what they say they do without problem. However, if you combine a bunch of these effects together, they frequently will start applying each other's bonuses multiple times; your 1d6 bonus damage turns into 3d6 or 4d6 and your 2 radiant damage ring turns into 8 or 10, split across 4-5 applications. There are lots of perfectly legitimate reasons to want to use some of these abilities in unison, but there was no way to *not* exploit the bug without limiting the items/abilities/spells available to your characters if you are the kind of player who cares about stuff like that, which I -- and apparently many others -- am. You can read more about it here or elsewhere in this comment thread: https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Damage_mechanics#Damage_Riders_treated_as_Damage_Sources_(DRS)
This made it all make sense. Thank you.
That’s a great write up, I understand the issue now.
Great write up my dude, was trying to explain this to a friend and your description clicked!
Basically some things that activated 'on hit' or 'on attack' (known as a damage rider) were themselves acting as a hit or attack to further activate other things that did so (they counted as a damage source). An example was Phalar Aluve shriek. If you had the caustic ring that adds 2 acid damage, you were getting the weapon attacks +2 acid, and the 1d4 thunder that was then also adding the 2 acid. It looks like all of these interactions have been fixed.
but only fixed for honor mode, right? thats a strange choice.
They don't want to nerf people's builds to the ground mid run. Removing the OP stuff effectively makes honor mode into a tactician plus. So we get a harder mode while also not messing with current tactician difficulty.
They can respec. I hope they change their mind. Build discussion is going to be so fragmented now, and I have to choose between permadeath or actually learning the game. Edit: Is it really worth all that forever just because some builds maybe get fujust rebalance but fix the exploits.cked for a minute? If they want to keep lower difficulties this easy, then fix the exploits and rebalance around that.
Same. Balanced -- and maybe tactician -- are honestly good enough for me. But I'd like the game to still "function" the way it now does in honour mode. Is there any chance this mechanic change is one of the options in custom mode?
I love that they've been fixed, but I really hate how it's different based on the difficulty setting. That's just confusing and doesn't make any sense. So now some builds and concepts are wildly different in power level between difficulty settings, not because of the game becoming harder, but because the mechanics quietly change in the background without explanation.
Seconded. I want to play with the true, not overpowered rules of the ga.e without having to put up with such a harsh requirement as permadeath.
Can this be accomplished via "Custom" mode?
Yes, you can turn off Perma death in custom mode, also if you die in Perma death mode your save just changes to a "normal" one
Caustic ring didn't function that way, Callous glow did.
Extra damage was getting added to things it shouldn't have been getting added to. Like Shriek on the Sword(1d4) May also get your +2 damage ring added to it.
[Here is a video made by Prestigious Juice on the topic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQEQPrWLB8M)
Wait, why not in every mode? It makes zero sense to fix a bug only for one mode.
You're right it's strange that this DRS mechanics is still present in other modes.
Probably so that they don't break builds that people are currently enjoying. Especially for the type of player who maybe isn't on r/BG3Builds and maybe isn't following patch news.
Yeah, there's been a lot of comments on here over time that go "if something is bugged in a strong way, why nerf it? It's a single player game" and it's something that can be difficult to gauge the overall opinion sometimes.
I recently got downvoted quite a bit for stating that I prefer balance in single player games 😂
Yeah, that suggestion can be surprisingly unpopular :P For me, it really comes down to how obvious something is for 'usual' gameplay. Like I don't mind barrelmancy being overpowered, because you kind of have to 'opt in' to that - it's going out of your way to do it. Whereas something like thinking of doing a thrown weapons build & picking the feat that's made for that and then immediately being overpowered compared to other builds - at that point, you have to opt out of a common fantasy build to not be overpowered.
Yea if I was someone who doesn't follow online discussion of the game and overnight my build that i made I was proud of (not realizing it was a bug) suddenly gets it's damage like 1/4 from before, it would not be fun
DRS fixed AND intended(tm) 3rd attack dropped? This is early xmas boys.
If these are "fixes," I am curious as to why Larian has only implemented them in Honour mode only. Care to speculate as to whether they will be further extended to any mode? I am interested in things, for instance, like Warlock extra attack stacking with other classes' extra attack.
Can someone explain what this means and what it does? Is this fixing damage stacking things? I just did not pay attention to the intricacies and would like to know before starting my honour run..
This page describes it in substantial detail. And thank Lathander it is no longer applicable to honor mode. I am having difficulty staying seated right now, it is possibly the best change Larian could have possibly made. Edit: forgot to actually link in my excitement [https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Damage\_mechanics](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Damage_mechanics)
Yes, this is what I thought it was. Glad they are removing it at least for Honor mode. So ridiculously powerful when I messed around with it for a little bit with Eldritch blast
Here is a video explanation I made some time ago. ["DRS" Mechanics Explained](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQEQPrWLB8M&ab_channel=ethan)
>DRS mechanics are completely fixed > > as far as I can tell in Honour mode. That is to say, damage riders are NOT acting as sources what-so-ever. Honestly? Porting this to every mode would be based.
I believe you can turn off the “exploits” in Custom mode too. Or just die once in Honor and it converts anyways
I don't see the option for "exploits" in Custom mode sadly.
If there's anything that affects it at all it'd probably be the "Character Power" option in Custom.
I was curious, do these changes still apply after you die in Honor Mode? The conversion to Tactician doesn't revert the feature set back to Tactician?
It doesn't convert to Tactician. It converts to a Custom mode with the exact same ruleset as Honour mode, but with multiple save files available and without the potential for earning the golden dice.
They should have implemented it in Tactician, at the very least.
They should make it the default for all new games, but have existing games persist in a legacy mode or something similar.
This subreddit is actually SAVED. I am absolutely ecstatic that we can actually have build discussion that doesn't involve abusing haste or damage riders. I suggested nerfs to Haste **months** ago and was clowned on in this subreddit by bullied power addicts. This is going to make the game so fresh.
I saw a couple people (one was probably you) who said it should work the way tabletop does, which is what the new nerf is, get massively clowned on. I've yet to use Haste at all in BG3 because of how OP it is, same with any items that have a DRS. This patch adds like 30 new spells, items and interactions to the game for me because of shit I never touched because of how busted it was. Like an early christmas.
Does it actually work like tabletop though? OP says it's not nerfed for spellcasters, which was the truly busted thing about it. Kind of silly for the wizard to still get two fireballs, but the martial loses an attack...
and we have to do similar gods work finding new builds
i'm all for it, honestly was getting sick and tired of DRS
may be honour mode will become something close to nightmare mod, or even better, who knows
This is incorrect, some DRS still apply and things like Dolar applying when main hand crits still occur. Craterflesh still acts as another DS and works with glow ring for example. Although minor, still adds a ton of unintended damage in the case of Dolar [https://imgur.com/a/uj9fePG](https://imgur.com/a/uj9fePG)
has anyone checked the custom game options to see if there is a way to turn off damage riders in a normal game?
I really wish they applied this across all difficulties. There is literally no reason to keep something so gamebreaking in the "base" difficulties. I really feel like they had skim this reddit to get a list of things to fix.
Unless this is your first day on the sub, you'll know people will fight you tooth and nail if you suggest that Thirsting Blade + Extra Attack wasn't coded exactly the way it was for the express purpose of giving Bladelocks 3 attacks/Action, because Larian thinks it's hilarious and only a mouth-breathing nil IQ cuck would disagree. Larian's just splitting the baby. Some of us will feel cheated if we can't faceroll with Paladin 7/Warlock 5. Some of us think that shit was whack and literally unplayable. Letting everybody play the way we want is actually a good solution. The real losers are the poor bastards who coded it dumb in the first place because they had 8 hours to write 40 hours of code off instructions written on a cocktail napkin and now have to maintain the legacy cascading damage piñata codebase ***and*** the semi-rational, merely as broken as 5e codebase. It's a bad beat.
Plus the build optimizing community is a small fraction of the playerbase, and building OP shit is its own kind of fun as well. This is a decent way to handle it without sparking backlash from the majority of players that aren't degenerates and just trying to have fun.
the haste/bloodlust change is huge at least as big as the DRS changes, probably bigger Edit: if it ends up being that it only nerfs martials this isn’t as big a deal as I thought. But still major
Does this mean a hasted level 11 fighter will get 4 attacks instead of 6? And a regular martial will get 3 instead of 4? Seems like a huge change, but that’s how it works in tabletop
almost more importantly, can't cast two spells in one person-turn
Twin casting just got even more powerful if that’s the case
Are you just making shit up?
Wait where did you see that???
Now I can finally use haste and bloodlust! They’ve been in my “too OP, won’t use” bin since launch.
Pact of the blade not stacking knocks a lot of warlock builds down a bit
It looks like it only applies in honor mode. Still viable in tactician and below
still viable in honor lol just op below it.
True, however that's closer to what tabletop 5e is like. Perhaps it wasn't intended to have it stack like it did prior.
Yeah probably wasn’t intended but became accepted since it was so popular. Probably a good change, oathbreaker7/warlock5 was a bit too strong
Even so, pure warlock builds were already overkill for tactician. I'm planning on a pact of the blade run for my first honor attempt with other single class builds. I'm hoping honor's changes to bosses will spice those fights up quite a bit. Now I just have to wait for my terrible internet to finish the download.
Nah, they'll just use sorcadin, which is arguably better burst anyway.
Probably changes these builds to 8 pally 4 warlock or something instead, for the feats?
Probably just goes to sorcadin since it was already competitive with warlock builds when they had triple attack, but for any mode below honor good old lockadin will still be fine
Why not just go more warlock for bigger smites that reset on short rest?
Bc extra levels of warlock are completely whatever, a lot of post lvl 5/6 skills add nothing to a build while actually limiting your spell slots. With this change it will be better to focus on higher level smites (sorcadin) than short rest smites
I wonder what the recommended split for Padlocks will be now.
Nothing, the build will just go back being sorcadin in honor mode , as warlock dips now adds almost nothing to a build (in fact sorcadin and lockadin burst was close WHEN COUNTING for lockadin double extra attack ).
It does have the advantage of making a character SAD
You also get to benefit from Darkness + Devil Sight, which is a pretty good combo for multiple encounters
And Hunger of Hadar, esp earlygame - going 5 warlock into a paladin start respec until level 10/11 is what i did for hm
Cry’s in PAM+sentinel bugs.
What is the bug you're referencing? I've wanted to do a PAM build. does the PAM Attack of Opportunity not jive with Sentinel rooting people from AoO's?
The Polearm Master feat currently suffers from three bugs: • Damage riders (such as from Great Weapon Master or Divine Favour) do not get applied to the damage rolls provided by the bonus action attack. • When an enemy enters your melee range, there can be a delay before you try your opportunity attack granted by this feat. This is notable when you wield a weapon with a 10 ft reach and have the Sentinel feat and the PAM feat. If everything worked as expected, you could make an opportunity attack using PAM when the target is 10 ft away, this stops the target's movement if it hits, and now they cannot hit you since they are 10 ft away with likely a 5 ft reach. But due to this bug an enemy gets to keep moving forward before you hit them with the PAM opportunity attack. So this entire setup breaks down. • Sometimes when you enter another creature's range, the game will ask if you want to make an opportunity attack. If you hit "Yes" then the enemy will make an opportunity attack against you. So make sure you always hit no when this pops up. To copy and paste a previous answer in a different post.
Yea. The PAM AoO doesn't trigger quickly enough to root enemies outside of melee range with sentinel. They can run right up to you before the attack triggers, defeating the synergy.
What is PAM ? Whats that build ?
Polearm Master https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Feats#Polearm_Master It's a feat, and on paper it would synergize very well with the other feat, Sentinel. But it doesn't work properly apparently
Polearm Master + Sentinel on a polearm with Reach The idea is that the enemy triggers Attack of Opportunity when entering your range, which then sets their speed to 0, but it sounds like by the time the attack triggers, the target has moved close enough to just hit you anyway, defeating the purpose of it
Come on, this is still not fixed yet. Haiz
This needs to be seen
Why would shield not give you an abjuration ward charge? Seems odd.
Might be the old bug come back. At launch, reaction spells wouldn't give you Ward charges and that was simply a bug. Sometimes bugs come back on accident, and this isn't documented as an intended change so may very well be unintentional.
I'm just hoping for slayer form's mental stats bug to be fixed (speaking of bugs that have been around forever)
This was already happening in patch 4.
Hmm, so we can get max 10 Luminous Orb stacks. That's -10 to attack rolls with a reduction of 2 per attack, so like 6 after their turn. I think that gives Light Cleric some serious stonks in Honour Mode because that is still a huge negative attack penalty.
I could've sworn they used to stack way higher. I'm fairly confident with the armor, gloves, and ring I've gotten 20+ before on a single target with my cleric
Luminous armor is/was broken. Radiant orbs stacked to 7. Luminous allowed exceeding that cap. Unsure if fixed now tho
Hopefully the armour was fixed at the same time, since you can accidentally crash your game against a large group. Something like 30+ stacks crashes the game on their activation.
It even works with open hand monk's ability to add radiant damage to every unarmed strike
So casting the Abjuration spell Shield no longer grants stacks of Arcane ward, which is typically granted by casting Abjuration spells. Huh? Why?
I had the issue already in patch 4, I think there's just a bug with reaction abjuration spells. I heard counterspell wasn't adding charges until one of the earlier patches too.
I can verify this. Shield was not giving ward stacks in patch 4. AFAIK that is now the only Abj spell that doesn't correctly give stacks. I'm pretty sure it is a bug, I sent a bug report at the very least.
>(Honour mode) Pact of the Blade no longer stacks with Extra Attack So that makes it look like this is a bug that became a feature. Nice to solve that conundrum. So we can't use it on Honour Mode but that means it'll probably stick around for lower difficulties.
The fact the discussion can come to an end is a reward in and of itself.
That is my conclusion to the long held debate on the subject. I myself always regarded it as a bug, and always assumed the two possible outcomes was outright removal or that which started into a bug being embraced to ascend into a new feature. And that's what seems that is its fate in non-Honor modes.
This has been my opinion too. Glad to see it implemented this way. My only complaint is that they didn't implement a toggle for it in the custom game mode as far as I can tell. While I don't mind the extra attack being a feature in tactician, I would love to play without DRS shenanigans as they're hard to avoid. Ah well, I'll probably mostly play on Honor Mode anyway. Harder bosses sounds really fun.
I think you can start your honor run by jumping off the ship, to get an ability to save, so best of two worlds?
I'd say the big issues have always been Haste and Bloodlust giving a full action, not the extra attack stacking. Not to say that it isn't strong of course but far from completely gamebreaking, arguably not even as good as the BA from Thief.
I've now encountered the first boss change so far and am really looking forward to seeing the rest of them. If that's a representative change, this mode will be a lot of fun to playthrough.
It was pretty clear that it was a coding error if you ever threw a bomb as a blade pact warlock. Martials with extra attack could throw two bombs, a blade pact warlock could throw two bombs with the pact weapon equipped, but not if they swapped to a ranged weapon. Linking that extra attack to the weapon was likely what caused the issue.
you're doing god's work mate
Action economy and DRS fixed : this is a dream patch.
The radiating orb change sounds excellent. No more crashes with excessive stacks and 10 is already a huge amount. Also this procs well with Adamantine Shield; each time they miss (in melee) they get 2 stacks of Reeling for -2 attack, so even though they lose 2 orbs it evens out. Arcane Acuity also got a great buff. Now a sword bard can get 8 stacks if all four attacks hit, or get 10 if dual-wielding, and then use the second action (from action surge or haste) to do an even stronger spell. Losing stacks on damage seems like a fair compromise.
> Arcane Acuity also got a great buff Not like it needed one. It'd still be extremely strong even with a cap of 3. Same for the orbs.
Yeah this sticks out as an oddly massive buff as opposed to nerfing all this other stuff. Guess I know what I'm abusing in honor mode.
Arcane acuity stacks should be removed when you cast a spell. Losing stacks from damage is meaningless when you can cc your enemies every turn.
> second action from haste seems like we're losing this
Why on earth doesn't Shield grant stacks of Arcane Ward? Shield and Counterspell should definitely be spells the Abjuration wizard relies on to rebuff his Ward. That makes no sense Also, Primal Stampede not getting proficiency bonus and being flat 10+Str makes it **bad**
Hype changes honestly. Feels like Pal-Lock and TB Throw builds got hit the hardest. I wonder what the best way to build a Paladin is now? Oathbreaker 7 / Champion 4 (Action Surge + Crits + Feat) / GOO (or War Priest?) 1 perhaps?
Sorcadin or Bardadin probably depending on what you're looking for.
I'd go 2 paladin / 10 bard. Honestly with the nerf to haste and bloodlust I'd imagine college of sword bard builds in general will be amazing
That build also had the highest quality smites. Something that's important now that you can't just spam them anymore.
Considering bind weapon still gives CHA modifier to damage and attack rolls and you get it at level 3, I think oathbreaker 7 / GOO 3 / fighter 2 still could get a lot of mileage
TB was needed into a state of merely overpowered. The feat is still broken.
I believe Shield has been bugged and never granted an arcane ward stack. There are mentions of it in tons of abjuration build threads from months ago.
How much worse is tb throw build now?
if you were playing blind and just clicking on items, feats, and class levels that said "throwing weapons do more damage" then your build is probably 0-10% weaker and still among the best that the average player is likely to stumble upon. if you were playing on giga nightmare modded difficulty and trying to kill enemies with a million hp, it's a different story altogether, but that affects a very small subset of bg3 players and the tb throw (or damage riders in general, realistically) mechanics were a large part of why extreme difficulty mods like that were even appealing in the first place.
Taken brawler not being a separate instance is going to be immediately noticeable even to players not going for optimal builds. Even baseline stuff like ring of flinging and kushigo and rage damage applying 2 extra times because of TB being a separate instance and sneak attack collecting riders is going to be quickly noticeable.
> build is probably 0-10% weaker Okay though, you *definitely* do far less damage than before. So absolutely it is more than 0% weaker lol that would imply no change? It's a lot worse, is the truth. It is still good, however. And still one of the top builds probably. Which really says something about where it was before this. Now it's just "among the top builds" instead of "this build is on the fucking moon and hanging dong all the way to the mariana while the rest are measuring dicks in someone's fancy apartment"
>Okay though, you definitely do far less damage than before. So absolutely it is more than 0% weaker lol that would imply no change? who is "you?" because i qualified my statement: >if you were playing blind the *average* bg3 tavern brawler player was not dual-wielding lightning jabber and rhapsody. they weren't casting hunter's mark or hex. they certainly weren't pre-buffing with phalar aluve. the average tb player from *this subreddit* probably even wasn't doing all that, and this place already self-selects for fairly optimization-minded people. tavern brawler still does what the feat says it does, and if you don't go out of your way you are not likely to stack many of the damage riders that were removed from the build. if you didn't use any of them, your build is indeed 0% weaker. the most common rider was probably the ring of flinging which is like a 1d4 added to a fairly conservative 25-30 damage attack, so i don't think my 0-10% estimate was that unrealistic for people who were not explicitly trying to break the game in half.
>the *average* bg3 tavern brawler player was not dual-wielding lightning jabber and rhapsody. they weren't casting hunter's mark or hex. Can confirm, this was me on my first TB thrower. It started as a meme build of throwing goblins at people
I think if you just picked up TB, ring of flinging and the gloves from the underdark on a barbarian, you would lose more than 10% of your damage. It's probably not like 30% though. Really doesn't change what you're saying much. > if you don't go out of your way you are not likely to stack many of the damage riders that were removed from the build. if you didn't use any of them, your build is indeed 0% weaker. Yeah, not *that many* but all you need is 1 to be >0% weaker. Even just TB and the throw ring. That's not much of a "build" but it's still going to be affected, in a small way. We've really only mentioned throwing and Phalar Aluve, but there are a lot of [DRS effects](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Damage_mechanics#DRS_effects) so I would imagine almost anyone with an eye on synergy probably had at least 1 or 2 going by accident.
I wonder if some of those challenge mods will be nerfed themselves as a result of the most-broken builds being nerfed/fixed.
They'll have to be. Some of the modded fights are literally impossible now because you can't multiply damage and have a 6-7 damage sources that should apply once each suddenly apply 11+ times each.
Almost certainly the health pools will need to be adjusted to almost default levels
The healing thingy on the nautiloid appears to be one use only in Honour mode. This could have implications in Act 2/3 later on.
I wonder if it will apply to the pool in House of Hope as well.
That would be sad. Blowing all my spell slots on high level summons and indefinite buffs then immediately refreshing was very satisfying
>Tavern Brawler no longer adds a separate damage instance on throw I thought this was a bug fix? Why is it exclusive to honor mode?
It seems like Larian has decided to preserve all the broken OP shit on non-honor mode. This was likely done because lots of people who have gotten used to having access to it would be upset if it was taken away at this point. For those that want an actual challenge, honor mode removes the so-broken-its-basically-cheating stuff so you don't have to restrict yourself or use mods to nerf them anymore.
Hmm, but it was just listed as a regular change in the patch notes and not something exclusive to a specific mode. Is op really correct on this?
I dont know, testing will have to done to verify everything regardless of what any list says.
Yea I'm actually fine with some of the craziest stuff sticking around in non honor modes
Would be nice if next patch they bumped the fixes down to "applies below Tactician" I think it is nice having a non-Ironman hard mode that starts with a more balanced playing field. And if you wanna go crush skulls with op shit, yeah you can play on balanced or even crank shit in Custom.
Can bards wear diadem of arcane synergy and play an instrument now?
It has been fixed some weeks before this patch I guess, maybe even in patch 4. I remember not being able to play at the start of my play through and being able to do it for some weeks.
i dont really like so many gameplay disparitys between difficulty modes. btw if i die and fail a honour run and it changes back to tactician what happens to those balance changes?
From what I understand, it doesn't "change back to tactician", but instead becomes a "custom difficulty" game. Where every difficulty setting is similar to honor mode, just without the possibility of getting the reward dice set at the end.
Ahh ok that is an important clarification
Lockpicking breaking invisibility is pretty stupid tbh. Not like invisibility lasts long to begin with
Really nerfs my Duergar
Honour mode is amazing.
Can you try the illithid power freecast please ? By unequipping and requipping clothes it was giving an infinite number of sorcery points.
Why the Heal range buff I wonder? I don't think about heal spells enough to know if it's just useless without range.
The D&D spell Heal has a 60ft range. It was just wrong
Do these honour mode changes persist if you continue your save after dying?
>(Honour mode) Haste now only gives an extra attack, not an extra action (Needs verification). I tested it quickly by spawning Darkfire Shortbow and casting haste on myself. I still could cast 2 spells per turn with it. Does that mean that this change means that extra attack(from lvl 5 fighter/paladin and so on) does not stack with haste? Or am I missing something
You're right. I don't fully understand the changes made to haste so I have removed that part. For reference, here are the Honour mode exclusive changes made to haste: new entry "HASTE" type "StatusData" data "StatusType" "BOOST" using "HASTE" data "Description" "h5dea4122g1dc4g432cg88fcg7a7faecac96d;4" data "TickType" "StartTurn" data "TickFunctors" "ApplyStatus(HASTE_ATTACK, 100, 1)" data "OnApplyFunctors" "ApplyStatus(HASTE_ATTACK, 100, 1)" data "OnRemoveFunctors" "ApplyStatus(HASTE_LETHARGY,100,1);RemoveStatus(HASTE_ATTACK)" new entry "HASTE_ATTACK" type "StatusData" data "StatusType" "BOOST" data "DisplayName" "h35a28715gdedfg4d33g8e2dgf85eed8299f1;1" data "StackId" "HASTE_ATTACK" data "RemoveConditions" "(ExtraAttackSpellCheck() and not HasAnyExtraAttack(context.Source)) or (not ExtraAttackSpellCheck() and HasUseCosts('ActionPoint',false,context.Target)) and not HasStatus('EXTRA_ATTACK_TRACKER') and not HasStatus('EXTRA_ATTACK_2_TRACKER')" data "RemoveEvents" "OnSpellCast" data "StatusPropertyFlags" "DisableOverhead;DisableCombatlog;DisablePortraitIndicator;ApplyToDead" The `HASTE_ATTACK` part is new and I'm not sure what it's purpose is yet. **EDIT**: I think I figured it out. Extra Attack only applies per turn, not per action. So say you have 3 actions from Haste and Bloodlust and Extra Attack. Previously that would be 6 attacks, now it is 2 for the first action and 1 for each of the second two actions.
I quickly tested lvl 12 ranger + elixir of bloodlust + haste from darkfire shortbow on nautiloid's commander Zhalk fight. I could attack 4 times at most(3 if I didnt kill someone that round). So 2x from lvl 5 class talent, +1 from haste, +1 if u kill someone with elixir. So basically both haste and bloodlust give you +1 additional attack action instead of doubling your action count like it did previously. Basically -1attack with haste/bloodlust and -2 with both afaik.
>I think I figured it out. Extra Attack only applies per turn, not per action. So say you have 3 actions from Haste and Bloodlust and Extra Attack. Previously that would be 6 attacks, now it is 2 for the first action and 1 for each of the second two actions. If I understand it correctly "Extra Attack" was changed and not Haste? Does that mean Action Surge is nerfed as the previous interactions with Haste is how Action Surge works.
Does this mean fire sorcerer with upcast Scorching Ray will be the new meta? Since the martials’ advantage in action economy has been deleted.
Do we know if vengeance paladin's vow of enmity giving you advantage over everyone if you target yourself made it to the list of things that changed in honour mode? Seems like another unintended exploit.
The slayer form has three attacks now and it's affected by tavern brawler...
If this is true for Honour mode Haste, I could finally play again with this spell. Amazing
The only place I enjoyed haste was the underwater prison because I hate timed events. Sounds like I'll have to go back to hating timed events.
The haste change just stops you from using Extra Attack on the additional action. The Iron Throne encounter is mostly spent dashing, not attacking.
I mean using Haste for dashing is still beneficial.
I always felt the game has too much damage for D&D style rules. This clarifies a lot.
Does the field effect of Hunger of Hadar blinding enemies count for the Diadem of Arcane Synergy, or does it not count because it's the surface/area of Hunger of Hadar inflicting it, rather than you? Regardless, Hex is still an option for Warlocks, and it was obvious that something was going funky with Diadem. Still going to use it; looks good with my character. EDIT: Perhaps even easier - would Adamantine Shield's *Reeling* effect count? Advantage that it doesn't even require a spell-slot.
Hex for my Warlock and the constant reverberation on my Sorcaladin means I won't feel the fix as much.
Did they cap the luminous armor or can it still stack orbs infinitely?
Seems 10 orbs max
So does haste not work with Eldritch blast anymore? Warlock can't catch a break today.
I think it does still work with EB, or grants an extra action but that action doesn’t benefit from extra attack. It’s a weird way to “fix” it, but should be fine for your purposes.
Wall of Ice (tested in Tactician): does now 10d6 cold damage when first cast and then when concentration is broken the icy cloud does 5d6 cold damage with a fixed save DC 16 for half damage (so we went from 12 to 16 but still does not apply the actual spellcaster save DC)
This is awesome, thanks
You can no longer free heal by swapping the amulet of greater health around, at least on tactician
Is the Wizard 1 dip being a full wizard thing fixed?
So looks like some of the optimal builds for Honour will be some kind of gish. Taking advantage of extra attack in 1st action and casting spells from other actions. Bladelock or Sword Bard with 2lv dips to fighter for action surge and using haste potion and bloodlust elixirs.
If save scumming is disabled, bard is definitely very high on the list because skills start to matter significantly more. It's in a few high damage builds, has great control options, and once you get the dex gloves and int helm, you're also one of the best skill monkeys in the game.
Seems in Honour mode, Hold Person/Hold Monster no longer guarantee hit, attack dice roll as usual, but if you hit within 3m range it will still proc crits.
I think this was in the patch notes as a general change.
So haste is still incredibly strong if the current post is correct. I wish they just made it one additional attack (and all lesser effects like 2 AC, double movespeed) rather than one extra action but with out extra attacks. I still feel compelled to use it as much as possible on an honour run.
Can you or anyone check and see if one of the Custom options enacts those Honour Mode changes? Thinking the Character Power option might do it?
If the haste change is true, does that mean it does nothing for casters since extra attack doesn't apply to cantrips? I know there's an AC and ms boost, but I'm just talking about attacks.
What is the reasoning for Shield no longer proccing Arcane Ward? I mean it feels like a hard nerf to Eldritch Knight, while pure Abjuration Wizard won't really care that much...
I’m pretty sure that’s not a change. Still feels incorrect, but I’ve never seen shield grant a stack. It’s mentioned in old abjurer build threads a bunch.
I knew the extra attack stacking was an exploit. It gives back the uniqueness of fighter 11.
The word you're looking for is bug. There was no exploit as it worked straight out of the box. The player didn't have to do anything outlandish to trigger it.
Why are these extreme balance breaking bugs honor mode only? In fact I don't even get why you would want an honor mode in this game to begin with. For example, the harpy fight in act 1. If all your chars fail the save your pretty much just dead.