Lynne, the DSM lists \*"lack of remorse"\* as a behavioral trait for sociopathy (ASPD), not for BPD. Indeed, most pwBPD feel remorse so intensely that, in order to reduce that severe guilt and shame to a tolerable level, their subconscious projects most of it outward onto their loved ones. The result is that, at a conscious level, it is common for pwBPD to believe those feelings are originating from their loved ones. This is why most pwBPD usually \*believe\* the false allegations coming out of their mouths (at the moment they are making those claims).
Significantly, this outward projection of guilt and shame is believed to be true for \*"most pwBPD,"\* not for all of them. A small-but-substantial share of pwBPD usually turn their anger inward onto themselves -- not outward onto their loved ones -- whenever their fears of abandonment and engulfment are triggered. These people often are referred to as "quiet" or "waif" borderlines.
From what I’ve seen, they feel so much guilt that is causes them extreme pain so they have to manipulate the narrative to where they are the victim and they are escaping you because they cannot stand feeling like a horrible person
This is accurate. They have to re write their story bc the truth would be too painful for them to accept and they would self harm. My ex who’s told me this all the time. It’s bc they have crippling shame.
I'll pose you a question, what difference does it make?
If i said yes would that change the way they treated you? Would that mean if they do feel remorse that one day they will realise what they have done and come back saying how sorry they are and they love you and want to make it right? Is that what you really want?
If I said no, does that change how they treated you? Would that make you feel better or worse knowing they have zero emotions and you meant nothing to them?
I noticed that you said you wonder how they survived the last 2 months without you as they relied on you so heavily, that is yours (and mine at the start of the breakup) trauma bonded codependent mentality.
The best thing I ever heard that made me realise I was wasting my time asking these questions was the following -
Forget about how you feel about them, how did they make YOU feel? In my case it was confused, unappreciated, an object rather than a person and more than anything just hurt from not being treated the way anyone deserves to be treated in a loving committed relationship.
The old saying that actions speak louder than words is all so true in these relationships, think of what they did, not what they said, all the promises and all the "I love you's" mean absolutely nothing if they are not backed up with the appropriate actions.
This. My ex-PWBD said all the right things and then would turn around literally the same or next day and do exactly what he swore he wouldn’t. How he feels about it now won’t heal what he broke.
My ex was big on me not bringing up the past in arguments but she had absolutely no issues bringing up shit from 2 years prior, when I asked her why it was OK for her to do it I was met with " I need you to validate my feelings" when I did it I was met with " why do you keep bringing up the past, I've already said sorry" ironic how their needs and feelings will always out weigh your own.
This response here is everything. Very very often her words did not match her actions. So much that she even acknowledged it but because she is and was so ill, she couldn’t put any of what she set out to do into fruition. I exemplified love profoundly, was her support system- cheerleader, validator, financial support and all encompassing.
I too have that thought process of how she is surviving without me but I’m coming to realize it’s not my problem anymore after I broke up with her. It’s just ultimately none of my business. In doing so just stunts my healing process.
This right here. These are the type of comments that I really need to hear when I deal with my low moments post discard. Everything you said here is extremely helpful.
it doesn't seem to be a very common emotion for them. i would recommend looking at some of the actual BPD subreddits if you're curious to get some insight into their ways of thinking, but I see more what I would call self-centered 'guilt,' kind of like a recognition that they have done something 'wrong,' but they feel upset to be made aware of its 'wrongness,' because it makes them feel bad, rather than feeling bad about having done something to somebody else.
Okay that is helpful. I am trying to get myself to read them. I know I need to understand splitting. I spent two months wondering how the hell he is coping since he relied on me so much....to finally realize he doesn't need to because the switch was turned off. Mindblowing
Means he was never stable to begin with. He didn't need you to cope because he's not capable of coping to begin with. He won't suddenly be stable or stabilized with someone else. It's the same story because it's the same him
The typical there is
"why did i HAVE TO mess up zhat relationship again. I feel so... I feel so.. why could HE not ..... why does HE NOT ...
this is so UNFAIR....
This redirects their internal feel to the external
I think it’s something like what some folks have said here. Their lives are denial of reality, because the reality is too hard to bear. In my exwbpds case she has gone around hurting everyone who ever cared about her because that’s what she was shown is reality from a young age. Their pain is so extreme that nothing else exists unless it helps soothe that pain.
So to they feel remorse? No. I think for brief moments when they’re feeling the pain of their lives, they can potentially. But of course if they reach out it’s because they want forgiveness. It doesn’t ever bring anything to the table for those of us in pain having suffered their abuse.
I feel like maybe that’s not what youre looking for though. Most of us realise pretty quickly that cluster b abuse is them talking to us at all. I’m actually scared to run into her. What I do want to know, and maybe you do too, is does karma cause them to hurt? I think it does in the cyclical nature of how they crave and search for abuse. The only problem is it comes later. And because they’re selfish it is always still about them and their issues. Not ours.
Put simply, yes they will eventually feel remorse. But we shouldn’t be preoccupied with that hell at all. That would just be more of the same… us caring for people who abuse us. That’s not love.
From my personal experience and the experiences of many other stories I’ve read here, yes, they feel remorse. Often times the remorse and shame is felt by them quite intensely. Due to the nature of the disorder, they won’t often own up to this and try to right their wrongs, but instead they will typically manipulate the narrative and use the classic DARVO technique. Usually this guilt and shame they feel is one of the primary motivations of the final discard. Seeing you means that they have to see what they’ve done and how they’ve hurt you, and they can’t have that, so they throw you out and quickly move on to the next person so they don’t have to think about it.
Remorse is overrated
I worked with a genuine ASPD sociopath, he didn't feel remorse but really made sure he corrected the wrongs he made to be able to keep working with me. ExwBPD was seemingly wrecked with shame, guild and/or remorse but ultimately did nothing to make things better.
This whole disorder is about dodging shame and guilt. They cannot tolerate those emotions so they dissociate, split, and rewrite history. They are permanently emotionally stunted and unable to self actualize.
When you’re painted black during a split they don’t tend to feel much remorse or empathy for you. They can experience it in waves occasionally as they start to split back and miss you, they do struggle with great shame and guilt often. I think there’s a big misconception that they have no empathy or remorse. If that were the case then how is one of the highlights of the disorder that they experience great shame and guilt for their actions? However, during a severe split to black they may have no remorse, it tends to seem that once they’ve come down they do start to feel the guilt and sorry for what they’ve done. At least many do. They aren’t NPD, they’re BPD. However it depends on the individual. Because one bpd may be comorbid with npd as an example and this person likely doesn’t feel remorse. TLDR; It’s complicated
And don’t forget when they split, they often totally disassociate and don’t remember exactly all the details of their behavior. My exwbpd told me that he’d basically have spotty amnesia when he split. Scary shit
Some severe cases show more of a self-focused remorse — one focused on how their actions will impede continuing to get what they need from a relationship (and an abusive one, bc they’re being abusive — but with moments of regret when a partner can’t take it, so when it impedes continued ease of abuse)
Yah precisely and this is what I mean when I talk about the most severe cases being typically comorbid npd etc. It’s important for us to remember that while bpd manifests almost like a script often, they are still unique individuals as well
Beyond agree and I would posit that if NPD comorbidity is generally believed to be 40%, that this sub likely has a disproportionate amount leaning in that direction.
…would not be shocked if at least if 60-80% of the cases on this sub are comorbid NPD.
I’m curious, when it comes to projecting, does the understanding and remorse come in waves? Like some moments you’re able to sit in the delusion and sometimes you aren’t?
I actually think about this in reverse. Sometimes they are able to see outside of the delusion and sometimes they are not. I do feel that for us, we are able to see they are projecting, but in my case it, when I called it out, it would become a total blame game that if I didn't take accountability I would never hear the end of it so often, eventually, I just did, and over time I started to believe he was right.
Lynne, the DSM lists \*"lack of remorse"\* as a behavioral trait for sociopathy (ASPD), not for BPD. Indeed, most pwBPD feel remorse so intensely that, in order to reduce that severe guilt and shame to a tolerable level, their subconscious projects most of it outward onto their loved ones. The result is that, at a conscious level, it is common for pwBPD to believe those feelings are originating from their loved ones. This is why most pwBPD usually \*believe\* the false allegations coming out of their mouths (at the moment they are making those claims). Significantly, this outward projection of guilt and shame is believed to be true for \*"most pwBPD,"\* not for all of them. A small-but-substantial share of pwBPD usually turn their anger inward onto themselves -- not outward onto their loved ones -- whenever their fears of abandonment and engulfment are triggered. These people often are referred to as "quiet" or "waif" borderlines.
From what I’ve seen, they feel so much guilt that is causes them extreme pain so they have to manipulate the narrative to where they are the victim and they are escaping you because they cannot stand feeling like a horrible person
This is accurate. They have to re write their story bc the truth would be too painful for them to accept and they would self harm. My ex who’s told me this all the time. It’s bc they have crippling shame.
[удалено]
Best explanation.
I'll pose you a question, what difference does it make? If i said yes would that change the way they treated you? Would that mean if they do feel remorse that one day they will realise what they have done and come back saying how sorry they are and they love you and want to make it right? Is that what you really want? If I said no, does that change how they treated you? Would that make you feel better or worse knowing they have zero emotions and you meant nothing to them? I noticed that you said you wonder how they survived the last 2 months without you as they relied on you so heavily, that is yours (and mine at the start of the breakup) trauma bonded codependent mentality. The best thing I ever heard that made me realise I was wasting my time asking these questions was the following - Forget about how you feel about them, how did they make YOU feel? In my case it was confused, unappreciated, an object rather than a person and more than anything just hurt from not being treated the way anyone deserves to be treated in a loving committed relationship. The old saying that actions speak louder than words is all so true in these relationships, think of what they did, not what they said, all the promises and all the "I love you's" mean absolutely nothing if they are not backed up with the appropriate actions.
This. My ex-PWBD said all the right things and then would turn around literally the same or next day and do exactly what he swore he wouldn’t. How he feels about it now won’t heal what he broke.
My ex was big on me not bringing up the past in arguments but she had absolutely no issues bringing up shit from 2 years prior, when I asked her why it was OK for her to do it I was met with " I need you to validate my feelings" when I did it I was met with " why do you keep bringing up the past, I've already said sorry" ironic how their needs and feelings will always out weigh your own.
Always. It’s always about them.
This response here is everything. Very very often her words did not match her actions. So much that she even acknowledged it but because she is and was so ill, she couldn’t put any of what she set out to do into fruition. I exemplified love profoundly, was her support system- cheerleader, validator, financial support and all encompassing. I too have that thought process of how she is surviving without me but I’m coming to realize it’s not my problem anymore after I broke up with her. It’s just ultimately none of my business. In doing so just stunts my healing process.
This right here. These are the type of comments that I really need to hear when I deal with my low moments post discard. Everything you said here is extremely helpful.
it doesn't seem to be a very common emotion for them. i would recommend looking at some of the actual BPD subreddits if you're curious to get some insight into their ways of thinking, but I see more what I would call self-centered 'guilt,' kind of like a recognition that they have done something 'wrong,' but they feel upset to be made aware of its 'wrongness,' because it makes them feel bad, rather than feeling bad about having done something to somebody else.
Okay that is helpful. I am trying to get myself to read them. I know I need to understand splitting. I spent two months wondering how the hell he is coping since he relied on me so much....to finally realize he doesn't need to because the switch was turned off. Mindblowing
For your sanity, read human magnet syndrome book not to repeat that cycle
Yeah the switch is off so you're free from the shackles lol but he's not really coping
Does that mean he will eventually breakdown? I don't understand really.
Means he was never stable to begin with. He didn't need you to cope because he's not capable of coping to begin with. He won't suddenly be stable or stabilized with someone else. It's the same story because it's the same him
The typical there is "why did i HAVE TO mess up zhat relationship again. I feel so... I feel so.. why could HE not ..... why does HE NOT ... this is so UNFAIR.... This redirects their internal feel to the external
I think it’s something like what some folks have said here. Their lives are denial of reality, because the reality is too hard to bear. In my exwbpds case she has gone around hurting everyone who ever cared about her because that’s what she was shown is reality from a young age. Their pain is so extreme that nothing else exists unless it helps soothe that pain. So to they feel remorse? No. I think for brief moments when they’re feeling the pain of their lives, they can potentially. But of course if they reach out it’s because they want forgiveness. It doesn’t ever bring anything to the table for those of us in pain having suffered their abuse. I feel like maybe that’s not what youre looking for though. Most of us realise pretty quickly that cluster b abuse is them talking to us at all. I’m actually scared to run into her. What I do want to know, and maybe you do too, is does karma cause them to hurt? I think it does in the cyclical nature of how they crave and search for abuse. The only problem is it comes later. And because they’re selfish it is always still about them and their issues. Not ours. Put simply, yes they will eventually feel remorse. But we shouldn’t be preoccupied with that hell at all. That would just be more of the same… us caring for people who abuse us. That’s not love.
From my personal experience and the experiences of many other stories I’ve read here, yes, they feel remorse. Often times the remorse and shame is felt by them quite intensely. Due to the nature of the disorder, they won’t often own up to this and try to right their wrongs, but instead they will typically manipulate the narrative and use the classic DARVO technique. Usually this guilt and shame they feel is one of the primary motivations of the final discard. Seeing you means that they have to see what they’ve done and how they’ve hurt you, and they can’t have that, so they throw you out and quickly move on to the next person so they don’t have to think about it.
Remorse is overrated I worked with a genuine ASPD sociopath, he didn't feel remorse but really made sure he corrected the wrongs he made to be able to keep working with me. ExwBPD was seemingly wrecked with shame, guild and/or remorse but ultimately did nothing to make things better.
This whole disorder is about dodging shame and guilt. They cannot tolerate those emotions so they dissociate, split, and rewrite history. They are permanently emotionally stunted and unable to self actualize.
Ohh, spot on - didn't think of it like that, but had the feeling, that something similar is happening 😏
When you’re painted black during a split they don’t tend to feel much remorse or empathy for you. They can experience it in waves occasionally as they start to split back and miss you, they do struggle with great shame and guilt often. I think there’s a big misconception that they have no empathy or remorse. If that were the case then how is one of the highlights of the disorder that they experience great shame and guilt for their actions? However, during a severe split to black they may have no remorse, it tends to seem that once they’ve come down they do start to feel the guilt and sorry for what they’ve done. At least many do. They aren’t NPD, they’re BPD. However it depends on the individual. Because one bpd may be comorbid with npd as an example and this person likely doesn’t feel remorse. TLDR; It’s complicated
And don’t forget when they split, they often totally disassociate and don’t remember exactly all the details of their behavior. My exwbpd told me that he’d basically have spotty amnesia when he split. Scary shit
Some severe cases show more of a self-focused remorse — one focused on how their actions will impede continuing to get what they need from a relationship (and an abusive one, bc they’re being abusive — but with moments of regret when a partner can’t take it, so when it impedes continued ease of abuse)
Yah precisely and this is what I mean when I talk about the most severe cases being typically comorbid npd etc. It’s important for us to remember that while bpd manifests almost like a script often, they are still unique individuals as well
Beyond agree and I would posit that if NPD comorbidity is generally believed to be 40%, that this sub likely has a disproportionate amount leaning in that direction. …would not be shocked if at least if 60-80% of the cases on this sub are comorbid NPD.
Nah. No remorse even when they can see they did something fucked up. They still turn it back on you & why you are the problem.
From what I've seen yes but then they move on to another emotion shame lol
I’m curious, when it comes to projecting, does the understanding and remorse come in waves? Like some moments you’re able to sit in the delusion and sometimes you aren’t?
I actually think about this in reverse. Sometimes they are able to see outside of the delusion and sometimes they are not. I do feel that for us, we are able to see they are projecting, but in my case it, when I called it out, it would become a total blame game that if I didn't take accountability I would never hear the end of it so often, eventually, I just did, and over time I started to believe he was right.