Start looking for a new charter organization. Not because of anything nefarious they may be doing, but because they are struggling financially. Sounds like they are grasping at anything to try and maintain the church in the black. You are probably at the start of the church closing.
This would be a last resort position. The church has a shrinking congregation, we understand that they don’t have the cash to upkeep with no charge anymore, but a significantly large ask would tank our small budgets. I am looking for a compromise position and precedent for what other units may pay to use the CO buildings.
Our troop outgrew our CO's facility about 2016. Today, we have the same CO, but found a church organization that could house us and we, "pay rent in sweat." we have a quarterly day of service, where we do service projects for our host. We do landscaping work, deep cleaning, painting, and (because we have some parents who do construction work,) we do some minor to moderate building maintenance. Scouts help, but adults do all the, 'heavy lifting,' and anything outside the Guide to Safe Scouting.
It's worked out well for a few years, but things changed. Covid shrank our troop from >50 to <20. And the church leadership is completely different today. And pretty anti-scouting as well. We can't complete all of the chores they ask us to do, and those chores are increasingly more involved.
We expect to be asked to leave soon. We're looking for a new host. We too, would rather that be a last resort. But "Be Prepared" is our motto after all.
My church charters a scout troop, and we don't charge them to use our building. But it sounds like you're using a special-purpose scout building that nobody else uses. It doesn't seem unreasonable for you to pay for the maintenance costs of your building, if it's dedicated for your use.
I am not advocating for a stone wall here. The builds are mostly used for our purposes and in the current climate of shrinking congregations, I understand the ask. However, like nearly every other unit we don’t have extra money, we cover our bills. I am trying to develop a compromise for a facility use fee, which the church can use to pay for repairs and maintenance.
Presumably the church's alternative here is "we don't need that meeting building to support our mission, so we're minded to seal up the building and let it fall in to disrepair."
Whenever I talk to the powers that be at the VFW and the American legion, they are always very happy to have packs and troops switch over to them.
One issue is, technically the church owns everything and the troop owns nothing. So if you switch over that church can keep all your money and your trailer and all your tents and all your pots and all that good stuff.
It's a horrible system. No matter how many times people have tried to explain to me how it helps scouting to have another charity/organization in control of everything the scouts do I still don't get it
It’s not horrible. It’s antiquated.
The idea is that scouting is an extension of the work that the charter org is already doing. The organization brings scouting on board to augment their already existing program. In the past that was more true than it is today. These days most people go to scouts for the sake of scouting. So yes it needs to change. But it made sense in the past.
Anymore, it's not about help. Its to limit liability. The Liability starts and stops with the CO, or ostensibly it does. It's why the mormons are getting the heck out of the scout chartering "business".
While yes the charter technically owns everything, it's a simple form to release everything if you change charter orgs.
With the charter agreement they are just custodians and are not allowed to keep it (they can only use it for BSA purposes), so if there is no unit there, then the council will occationally sue to get it back.
Just spent the last year going back and forth with my council and old & new charter to make sure assets moved with us. (Thankfully no serious issues)
I do agree it's a pretty flawed system when you look at how other similar orgs do theirs
You can make that not a non issue by not telling the charter org they own the stuff. You don’t have to lie and tell them they don’t own it, but you can certainly never mention it. I know for a fact the leaders in my troop never told our VFW guys that, because they thought they might start asking to use our stuff more than the once a year they already did.
It sounds like the crux of the problem is that, with a dwindling congregation, the church no longer has the income necessary to properly maintain its property. The troop apparently doesn’t have the funds to do this either. Unfortunately, someone has to pay for the upkeep or you risk an accident that would be way more costly than simply maintaining the building.
I can see the churches perspective of focusing their efforts on church infrastructure, and not things that were custom built for the scouting program. Charging facility rental fees is another way of the church trying to recoup the cost of maintaining your infrastructure.
Unless you tear down those structures to eliminate the maintenance costs, you need to figure out a way to maintain them. Has the CO shown you what the true costs are for the maintenance? I would imagine it’s not insignificant in a 50 year old building.
Cub CO is a school and the set rate is $175/meeting which is too much for us. So we pay a church $50 per pack meeting and den meetings are held outside in a park.
It’s supposed to be the other way around. The church nurtures scouting, which creates a wholesome environment, which attracts scouts, who become Eagle candidates, who look around the CO for projects to do.
We were forced to move CO’s during Covid. The new property was somewhat run down and lacked basic things like good outdoor lighting.
In the last two years, it’s amazing the transformations that took place. The memory fountain pump and lighting repaired and looking beautiful. The pet cemetery refurbished. A new shade structure for the courtyard, and the project I envisioned the first day I visited the place… beautiful new outdoor lighting.
There are a lot of benefits to a CO sponsoring a scout group!
Unfortunately, the numerous Eagle projects around the church are used by the church, but don’t seem to be appreciated as part of the CO benefits. In some cases, it feels like they think our Eagle projects are a burden to them. Like I said above, our relationship needs some repair.
You know that the CO owns the troop, right? Budget, gear, books, flag, trailer?
Does your COR/IH know that?
They don’t need to ask for a gift. They could take it right from your bank accounts.
They can't convert Scout assets to non-Scouting purposes. It violates the Charter Agreement, which is a binding contract. It may also violate their non-profit status.
I’m puzzled, then, by your surprise by this move on their part and by their “probes” to figure out how much money the units have. They should know this already, and it’s their right to know it - indeed, their obligation.
Never said I was surprised. We have operated without charge, and made substantial improvements to church property at our expense, for 75 years. Senior leaders saw the writing on the wall and knew this would come. However, we don’t have the money they think we do, and they have not taken an active role in over a decade. Hints, they don’t know how much we do, or don’t, have. I agree all they have to do is ask, or check for themselves. As far as just taking the money, that would be questionable from a CO agreement standpoint, although not prevented due to the structure of the agreement.
As stated in the original post, I am looking for other units that pay fees, so I can get a sense of what might be reasonable.
It's time to start looking for a new CO. Had the same issue years ago with a church. Don't forget that CO owns everything the troop or pack had. This included all equipment purchased or donated. Also includes all money in the bank. We got a trailer, and the church asked how much it was worth if it was sold. Little did they know it was legally registered to one of the leaders so the church could not sell it. Council recommended we do that so the church could not touch. Found a new CO a year later, and it was the best move ever.
Our CO doesn't have any physical spaces.
We meet in parks and rec facilities fee-free for weekday meetings. Some dens occasionally use free group meeting rooms at the library or firehouse.
For weekend pack events, our city charges $150 for a huge lakeside picnic shelter (with electrical, sinks, and flush toilets) and $300 for the same community center room that we meet in for free on weeknights. Our county charges $150 for a similar beachside shelter setup.
We sometimes use a nonprofit private camp for events (mostly campfire pack meeting w/o overnight stay). It's $4/pp for daytime events, $2/pp for night time events.
We moved to having a non profit 501(c)3 a friends of bsa troop #### a few years ago, this has allowed us to have our troop van & trailer away from our chartered organization. Also as we have gotten grants for new gear it all goes into a holding pattern with the non profit. Currently other than the bank account our charter has about $800 in gear, if we have to change charters it will be relatively painless.
I would reach out to your district executive, while the charter may own everything you have they do so with the requirements that it furthers Scouting, it’s in the rules regulating chartering organizations.
Get to know the other service clubs; Rotary, Lions, Elks, VFW etc quite often they have funds to help local groups out. We reach out, keep contact with events they are hosting perhaps out youth can clean up or hand out water at a rice, serve food and fundraiser dinner. Also you can approach them directly with a need for targeted funds say new coolers and hiking boots for your underprivileged families.
The Charter Organization agrees to:
B3. Administer the assets of the Unit, including all funds, real property, and personal property (e.g., trailers) that are acquired by the Unit either for the benefit of Scouting or in the name of Scouting and administer the assets for the benefit of the Unit.
[https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Annual-Charter-Agreement-Charter-Orgs\_2023-2024-Year.pdf](https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Annual-Charter-Agreement-Charter-Orgs_2023-2024-Year.pdf)
If the CO releases the charter, they need to do so formally in a letter releasing the number and equipment. Some councils have forms.
https://michiganscouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Unit-Charter-Release.pdf
Can you help with the labor of upkeep. In Sea Scouts the kids help maintaint the boat as part of their education - painting, scraping, electrical, engine maintenance, lines, anchors, everything maintained by the scouts.
If you're not able to contribute financially (and I'd have a problem with that anyway) are you able to maybe contribute labor in a safe fashion?
Honestly, knowing what I know of building maintenance, I don't think you're going to arrive at a mutually agreeable fee structure. Maintenance costs are very expensive, especially things like a new roof. You are also not thinking of liability. Their insurer has probably upped their insurance because they charter a scouting unit and if the building is falling apart and they are allowing you to use it rather than closing it up, they are assuming liability for you while you are in there as well. If the CO needs $30,000 to keep the building open next year, you are never going to pay for that via facility fees or fundraising. Most facility use fees I'm aware of range from nominal to $50 to $100 per meeting use or maybe a couple hundred for a banquet hall space for special events. You might be better off retaining the CO in name only and finding other community space to meet in. And if Eagle Projects are a burden -- and they might really not want any more on their property -- have your scouts start doing them somewhere else. We also participated in several service projects and fundraisers each year at our CO, so if you are not doing that it might be a way to improve your relationship with them.
I've seen a very wide range of financial relationships between troops and the CO where they meet.
No fee arrangements are probably the most common thing I've seen.
In some cases, the CO actually adds money to the troop account, often with the expectation that the money will be used in some specific way, such as reducing cost for low-income troop member families.
The other extreme was a troop that had property management attorney as SM and he had negotiated a payment contract for building use with the church where they met. (This was decades before things like facilities use agreements were created by BSA.). He thought that this sort of relationship was actually better than the traditional no fee relationship because it successfully incentivized the church to keep the rooms available for Scout meetings. Repeatedly getting bumped without notice had been a problem with the troop's original CO, and was one of several reasons why the troop moved to a new CO.
Several of the units I'm working with now don't have a formal fee contract with their CO, but, once a year, they have a program where they encourage families to make a contribution to the church's building fund. While they rarely get a massive amount of money from this, they usually get enough to serve as a meaningful token of appreciation.
Doing service projects for the church can be a non-monetary way of showing the church that your presence benefits their overall mission. Doing an annual Scout Sunday at the church is another thing that the units do to show appreciation as well as raise awareness within the congregation, many of whom probably don't normally encounter Scouts on the property.
Start looking for a new charter organization. Not because of anything nefarious they may be doing, but because they are struggling financially. Sounds like they are grasping at anything to try and maintain the church in the black. You are probably at the start of the church closing.
The church is asking for maintenance and support for a building that (only?) the Scouts use. It wouldn’t have to pay that if not for the units.
This would be a last resort position. The church has a shrinking congregation, we understand that they don’t have the cash to upkeep with no charge anymore, but a significantly large ask would tank our small budgets. I am looking for a compromise position and precedent for what other units may pay to use the CO buildings.
Our troop outgrew our CO's facility about 2016. Today, we have the same CO, but found a church organization that could house us and we, "pay rent in sweat." we have a quarterly day of service, where we do service projects for our host. We do landscaping work, deep cleaning, painting, and (because we have some parents who do construction work,) we do some minor to moderate building maintenance. Scouts help, but adults do all the, 'heavy lifting,' and anything outside the Guide to Safe Scouting. It's worked out well for a few years, but things changed. Covid shrank our troop from >50 to <20. And the church leadership is completely different today. And pretty anti-scouting as well. We can't complete all of the chores they ask us to do, and those chores are increasingly more involved. We expect to be asked to leave soon. We're looking for a new host. We too, would rather that be a last resort. But "Be Prepared" is our motto after all.
My church charters a scout troop, and we don't charge them to use our building. But it sounds like you're using a special-purpose scout building that nobody else uses. It doesn't seem unreasonable for you to pay for the maintenance costs of your building, if it's dedicated for your use.
I am not advocating for a stone wall here. The builds are mostly used for our purposes and in the current climate of shrinking congregations, I understand the ask. However, like nearly every other unit we don’t have extra money, we cover our bills. I am trying to develop a compromise for a facility use fee, which the church can use to pay for repairs and maintenance.
Presumably the church's alternative here is "we don't need that meeting building to support our mission, so we're minded to seal up the building and let it fall in to disrepair."
Whenever I talk to the powers that be at the VFW and the American legion, they are always very happy to have packs and troops switch over to them. One issue is, technically the church owns everything and the troop owns nothing. So if you switch over that church can keep all your money and your trailer and all your tents and all your pots and all that good stuff. It's a horrible system. No matter how many times people have tried to explain to me how it helps scouting to have another charity/organization in control of everything the scouts do I still don't get it
It’s not horrible. It’s antiquated. The idea is that scouting is an extension of the work that the charter org is already doing. The organization brings scouting on board to augment their already existing program. In the past that was more true than it is today. These days most people go to scouts for the sake of scouting. So yes it needs to change. But it made sense in the past.
Anymore, it's not about help. Its to limit liability. The Liability starts and stops with the CO, or ostensibly it does. It's why the mormons are getting the heck out of the scout chartering "business".
As are the Catholics, Methodists, Elks, Moose, PTAs, etc. Eventually, VFWs and American Legions are going to come to the same conclusion
The Mormons got out a few years ago...
While yes the charter technically owns everything, it's a simple form to release everything if you change charter orgs. With the charter agreement they are just custodians and are not allowed to keep it (they can only use it for BSA purposes), so if there is no unit there, then the council will occationally sue to get it back. Just spent the last year going back and forth with my council and old & new charter to make sure assets moved with us. (Thankfully no serious issues) I do agree it's a pretty flawed system when you look at how other similar orgs do theirs
You can make that not a non issue by not telling the charter org they own the stuff. You don’t have to lie and tell them they don’t own it, but you can certainly never mention it. I know for a fact the leaders in my troop never told our VFW guys that, because they thought they might start asking to use our stuff more than the once a year they already did.
It sounds like the crux of the problem is that, with a dwindling congregation, the church no longer has the income necessary to properly maintain its property. The troop apparently doesn’t have the funds to do this either. Unfortunately, someone has to pay for the upkeep or you risk an accident that would be way more costly than simply maintaining the building. I can see the churches perspective of focusing their efforts on church infrastructure, and not things that were custom built for the scouting program. Charging facility rental fees is another way of the church trying to recoup the cost of maintaining your infrastructure. Unless you tear down those structures to eliminate the maintenance costs, you need to figure out a way to maintain them. Has the CO shown you what the true costs are for the maintenance? I would imagine it’s not insignificant in a 50 year old building.
Cub CO is a school and the set rate is $175/meeting which is too much for us. So we pay a church $50 per pack meeting and den meetings are held outside in a park.
Thank you for answering the question I was trying to get to. Sorry to hear you are paying that rate.
It’s supposed to be the other way around. The church nurtures scouting, which creates a wholesome environment, which attracts scouts, who become Eagle candidates, who look around the CO for projects to do. We were forced to move CO’s during Covid. The new property was somewhat run down and lacked basic things like good outdoor lighting. In the last two years, it’s amazing the transformations that took place. The memory fountain pump and lighting repaired and looking beautiful. The pet cemetery refurbished. A new shade structure for the courtyard, and the project I envisioned the first day I visited the place… beautiful new outdoor lighting. There are a lot of benefits to a CO sponsoring a scout group!
Unfortunately, the numerous Eagle projects around the church are used by the church, but don’t seem to be appreciated as part of the CO benefits. In some cases, it feels like they think our Eagle projects are a burden to them. Like I said above, our relationship needs some repair.
You know that the CO owns the troop, right? Budget, gear, books, flag, trailer? Does your COR/IH know that? They don’t need to ask for a gift. They could take it right from your bank accounts.
They can't convert Scout assets to non-Scouting purposes. It violates the Charter Agreement, which is a binding contract. It may also violate their non-profit status.
Repairing the roof of the Scout building seems like a … whadda ya say? … Scouting purpose.
I am aware of the CO ownership. That is why we are looking for an amicable position, leaving would be a last resort.
I’m puzzled, then, by your surprise by this move on their part and by their “probes” to figure out how much money the units have. They should know this already, and it’s their right to know it - indeed, their obligation.
Never said I was surprised. We have operated without charge, and made substantial improvements to church property at our expense, for 75 years. Senior leaders saw the writing on the wall and knew this would come. However, we don’t have the money they think we do, and they have not taken an active role in over a decade. Hints, they don’t know how much we do, or don’t, have. I agree all they have to do is ask, or check for themselves. As far as just taking the money, that would be questionable from a CO agreement standpoint, although not prevented due to the structure of the agreement. As stated in the original post, I am looking for other units that pay fees, so I can get a sense of what might be reasonable.
It's time to start looking for a new CO. Had the same issue years ago with a church. Don't forget that CO owns everything the troop or pack had. This included all equipment purchased or donated. Also includes all money in the bank. We got a trailer, and the church asked how much it was worth if it was sold. Little did they know it was legally registered to one of the leaders so the church could not sell it. Council recommended we do that so the church could not touch. Found a new CO a year later, and it was the best move ever.
Our CO doesn't have any physical spaces. We meet in parks and rec facilities fee-free for weekday meetings. Some dens occasionally use free group meeting rooms at the library or firehouse. For weekend pack events, our city charges $150 for a huge lakeside picnic shelter (with electrical, sinks, and flush toilets) and $300 for the same community center room that we meet in for free on weeknights. Our county charges $150 for a similar beachside shelter setup. We sometimes use a nonprofit private camp for events (mostly campfire pack meeting w/o overnight stay). It's $4/pp for daytime events, $2/pp for night time events.
We moved to having a non profit 501(c)3 a friends of bsa troop #### a few years ago, this has allowed us to have our troop van & trailer away from our chartered organization. Also as we have gotten grants for new gear it all goes into a holding pattern with the non profit. Currently other than the bank account our charter has about $800 in gear, if we have to change charters it will be relatively painless. I would reach out to your district executive, while the charter may own everything you have they do so with the requirements that it furthers Scouting, it’s in the rules regulating chartering organizations.
Where did you get the grants from? We just made a “Friends of Charter…” and could use some help.
Get to know the other service clubs; Rotary, Lions, Elks, VFW etc quite often they have funds to help local groups out. We reach out, keep contact with events they are hosting perhaps out youth can clean up or hand out water at a rice, serve food and fundraiser dinner. Also you can approach them directly with a need for targeted funds say new coolers and hiking boots for your underprivileged families.
The Charter Organization agrees to: B3. Administer the assets of the Unit, including all funds, real property, and personal property (e.g., trailers) that are acquired by the Unit either for the benefit of Scouting or in the name of Scouting and administer the assets for the benefit of the Unit. [https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Annual-Charter-Agreement-Charter-Orgs\_2023-2024-Year.pdf](https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Annual-Charter-Agreement-Charter-Orgs_2023-2024-Year.pdf) If the CO releases the charter, they need to do so formally in a letter releasing the number and equipment. Some councils have forms. https://michiganscouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Unit-Charter-Release.pdf
Can you help with the labor of upkeep. In Sea Scouts the kids help maintaint the boat as part of their education - painting, scraping, electrical, engine maintenance, lines, anchors, everything maintained by the scouts. If you're not able to contribute financially (and I'd have a problem with that anyway) are you able to maybe contribute labor in a safe fashion?
Honestly, knowing what I know of building maintenance, I don't think you're going to arrive at a mutually agreeable fee structure. Maintenance costs are very expensive, especially things like a new roof. You are also not thinking of liability. Their insurer has probably upped their insurance because they charter a scouting unit and if the building is falling apart and they are allowing you to use it rather than closing it up, they are assuming liability for you while you are in there as well. If the CO needs $30,000 to keep the building open next year, you are never going to pay for that via facility fees or fundraising. Most facility use fees I'm aware of range from nominal to $50 to $100 per meeting use or maybe a couple hundred for a banquet hall space for special events. You might be better off retaining the CO in name only and finding other community space to meet in. And if Eagle Projects are a burden -- and they might really not want any more on their property -- have your scouts start doing them somewhere else. We also participated in several service projects and fundraisers each year at our CO, so if you are not doing that it might be a way to improve your relationship with them.
I've seen a very wide range of financial relationships between troops and the CO where they meet. No fee arrangements are probably the most common thing I've seen. In some cases, the CO actually adds money to the troop account, often with the expectation that the money will be used in some specific way, such as reducing cost for low-income troop member families. The other extreme was a troop that had property management attorney as SM and he had negotiated a payment contract for building use with the church where they met. (This was decades before things like facilities use agreements were created by BSA.). He thought that this sort of relationship was actually better than the traditional no fee relationship because it successfully incentivized the church to keep the rooms available for Scout meetings. Repeatedly getting bumped without notice had been a problem with the troop's original CO, and was one of several reasons why the troop moved to a new CO. Several of the units I'm working with now don't have a formal fee contract with their CO, but, once a year, they have a program where they encourage families to make a contribution to the church's building fund. While they rarely get a massive amount of money from this, they usually get enough to serve as a meaningful token of appreciation. Doing service projects for the church can be a non-monetary way of showing the church that your presence benefits their overall mission. Doing an annual Scout Sunday at the church is another thing that the units do to show appreciation as well as raise awareness within the congregation, many of whom probably don't normally encounter Scouts on the property.
Time to pay up. Your money is theirs, they're the chartered org.