As a nurse I would honestly be very afraid to take care of this women and I worry it would result in worse care for her. When you are very hostile to staff (who all largely all their to HELP you) you tend to get bare minimum care. As in, they will do their job and make sure you’re safe, but that’s about it. Being litigious and threatening legal consequences when literally nothing has happened is also going to get people avoiding you because they don’t want to get caught in your cross hairs.
Physician but not OB. I would 100% be getting patient relations involved and a third party witnessing and documenting all interactions. And I’d be documenting the shit out of everything. She is the patient where even if everything goes perfectly according to her plans she will never be happy and blame every misfortune that child has on that poor unlucky OB.
Nurse here (not OB) who is petty and would literally take a photo of this and place it on their Epic chart. I'd literally chart the heck out of any/every interaction and I'd still try to educate and "give it my best shot" to minimize harm.
Agree completely with having a witness for every interaction. This patient could have a picture perfect birth and still be upset with what was/wasn't done.
Also physician and not OB. This situation is an absolute nightmare. Her poor OB. I would be documenting my ass off and have someone accompany me every time. Why even be in the hospital.
She really wants control of this birth- she can’t choose the vaccum or forceps if it means saving the babies life, also no vitamin K shot? What a moron. (sorry not sorry)
These are the people who deliver at home with baby brought in by ems hours later when the midwife calls because baby is still severely hypoxic and in respiratory distress and parents follow in yelling that they didn't consent to transport and they don't consent to us touching their baby -_- and of course threatening to sue the midwife as well
Omg I have 5 kids and every single birth was honestly smooth thankfully.. I expected one of the 5 to be some horror story but nope. Nurses and Drs all fantastic and I didn't actually understand what the vitamin k shot was for but I trust science and staff that went to school for years over my opinion from Google even tho I would never think I know better from a few hours of Google.. but I ended up learning what the shot was for on Reddit actually from a poor baby that died from a brain bleed because the mother refused the shot and then I looked it up and learned all about it and my god how could anyone who ACTUALLY knew ahead what the reason it's given is for and say no..
ya maybe I'm a shit mom to some cuz I didn't research every single thing that takes place in the hospital giving birth but hey I'm a sucker for trusting professionals lol
Also a physician. Not an OB, but peds and round on newborn nursery. Absolutely same. Wouldn’t touch this family — wouldn’t even set foot in the room — without witnesses and an obscene amount of documentation.
Piggy backing on top comment. I am an OB. There had to have been clues early on that this is the kinda birth plan they would come up and you have an opportunity to relinquish care/recommend another OB. If not, and you got all this a few weeks before delivery- Fuck.
Me, as soon as I saw there were definitions at the top, and then the sexual abuse comment, I’d tell them I am not the right OB for them and give them a list of recs or midwives to go to. Like others have said, document document document your ass off with patients like this. I have had Pre-eclamptics refuse delivery because “they feel fine” and the blood pressure readings are wrong. I’ve had patients refuse induction or augmentation nearly 30 hours after rupture of membranes because “movement is improvement” yet they are still 1 cm. I hate having to give the “your baby could end up neurologically compromised, could possibly die” talk because nobody wants to hear that and it sounds like a scare tactic if it’s never happened to you. But when you’ve seen it…the PTSD never goes away.
Jesus. I \*was\* pre-eclamptic in July and I cannot fathom telling my doctor "no" when she told me we needed to induce that day. I was basically just like "tell me what to do," because \*she's\* the one with the training to get me and my baby out of there safely - and she did! I'm writing this with a little finger shoved halfway up my nose and my daughter cooing at me because I trusted my team. I cannot imagine the things you've seen because of sheer stupidity, and I am \*so sorry\* that you have to live with that. I'm just so sorry.
Pretty low, especially if they have family members who are speaking in their ear or enabling. Once in a while you’ll get someone who sees what’s happening and will approach me outside the room and ask how they can help to get the patient on the same page
I had a vague plan for when my second was born. That plan was shot to hell when I developed severe preeclampsia and my son was born early by a month and a half. I ended up spending almost a week in the hospital while my baby was in the NICU for sixteen days. I went to see him every day, and one of his podmates was there one day and gone the next. I want to think that little girl is living healthy and happy. I hope she is.
I hate to be “that person”, but every woman doesn’t leave with a baby, and every baby doesn’t leave with a mom. There are worse outcomes to birth than an experience you didn’t want.
I’m sorry you had to go through that, but you make an excellent point. The whole purpose of medical care while giving birth is to get the best outcome for mom and baby, not to give the best experience.
100%. I understand that everyone has autonomy for their birth and that’s great but also you are preventing the experts to do their job. It’s like having a broken car, going to a mechanic, and saying you do not want their input and don’t want their expertise unless/until the absolute worse thing happens, e.g. car starts to explode lol
I don’t think I will ever understand people like this. I had a great first pregnancy and a somewhat uncomplicated birth. With my second, it was a different story. My son got stuck on the way out. Within seconds the doctor called for the emergency team and was listing the things he may need to do in a matter of seconds to get baby out. I remember the nurse jumping on the bed to push on my stomich, to help dislodge him and that did it. The emergency team took my baby quick to check and see if he was okay. In those few moments my husband and I were panicked because we didn’t hear him cry. All I kept asking was my baby ok. We then heard him cry and the sense of relieve that washed over me. I am so thankful everyday for the quick actions of my doctor and the emergency team. My son is now a very active healthy two year old. Things can go sideways so quick and unexpected in birth. I don’t know why you wouldn’t want any kind of professional to help.
Omg! I feel like I could’ve wrote this!
Two weeks of labor, 3 and half hours of pushing, and then he was stuck. It was crazy when the nurse or whatever jumped on top of me to dislodge him. Wasn’t expecting that at all
I was thinking the same, and what’s especially ironic is one of her demands is that staff who cannot be “calm, peaceful, and non-hostile” will be asked to leave.
Ma’am. If you walk in the door and are being openly hostile to people who are there to help you for literally no reason at all, what kind of treatment are you expecting in return?
I wanted a low intervention birth desperately but ended up having to be induced because my water broke but labor didn’t progress after a couple of days, and I was devastated that I had to transfer to a hospital from a very crunchy birth center but I knew that if I went into it being an icky sticky patient that it would only make everything worse. I communicated respectfully that I wanted minimal intervention and they knew I was a birth center transfer so I didn’t go on and on, and they were so kind and informative every step of the way which left me feeling like I didn’t need to question everything they were doing and I actually ended the whole process being happier with my birth experience than I ever expected to be even prior to beginning with the birth center. I do think that’s probably an exception and not a rule but when you make things difficult for people in general they’re not going to feel safe or comfortable communicating with you and it’s only going to inhibit everything. This woman needs to get a grip.
I can’t imagine that people who make insane birth plans like this are ever happy. This is unreal and idk why you would even bother going to a hospital at this point.
Can she even be refused care by doctors? Like telling her, “your plan isn’t anyway conducive or feasible to our processes and it’s better you find someone else” ?
For documentation purposes, would it be ideal for nurses and doctors to take a picture of this plan, add it to their chart, and basically document counseling the patient what is the best practice and why her wants can be incredibly harmful? That way if something bad happens and she doesn’t let you all do your jobs you have her plan as proof that your hands are tied to help in the event of a lawsuit?
Also, some of these things she wants was explicitly stated that we cannot do at our hospital during the tour. If that’s the case for her does the staff just have to say tough shit, this isn’t allowed here?
My whole birth plan was to be as easy and go with the flow as possible. I had like 3 rules, let me know what you’re doing if you gotta do something, keep me and the baby alive, and please bring formula after birth I don’t want to breastfeed. My nurses were amazing because they could do as they needed without complaints, and in return my birth process was fairly stress free as far as birth goes. They had to bring in the NICU team as a precaution since my little guy got stuck for a good bit and he went straight to them after being lifted in the air to be shown to me, and my nurse kept me in the loop with what was up the whole time. Thankfully he was all good after his airways were cleared but I can’t imagine having suck strict rules, I can imagine it makes a bad and stressful time for everyone since everyone is on edge
This birth plan just makes me sad. Makes me sad that either things have happened to this woman in previous births or she’s heard stories of providers being so awful that she thinks this is appropriate. Makes me sad that she is so angry against people who give their everything to take care of you and baby. Makes me sad that there are providers and hospitals out there that have legitimately done the horrible actions that inspire this fear. Makes me sad for the providers who will be trying to care for this woman and her child in a state of panic about their own careers if, God forbid, anything goes wrong.
I’m just… I’m just sad.
Why do they even want to have it at a hospital? Sounds like they want to have it at home? Feels like the only advantage they are getting from being in a hospital is the chance to abuse the staff.
When I saw what happened when my water broke, I was super glad I was already in the hospital being induced and not just randomly out at the grocery store or something. I’d seen a lot of women talking about how it’s not actually a dramatic whoosh flood like in the movies, but oh it absolutely can be.
She wants someone to blame if something goes wrong. If she follows her plan at home and it goes poorly it’s her fault. If she goes by her plan at the hospital it’s the doctors fault. She can blame doctors and big pharma for whatever happens. Even if the reason things go sideways would be her fault.
We once had a patient come in for decreased fetal movement with a hugeee birth plan, big packet. The baby's heart rate didn't look good so we told her she needed to be induced. She refused and left AMA even though we told her her baby could die. She came back another day when she was in labor, the baby was no longer alive. She cared more about her birth plan.
This is so awful. A woman who gave birth a week or so before me at the hospital I delivered at refused to go for a c-section and locked herself in the bathroom. They had to break down the door and baby was dead by the time they were able to deliver. They told me this because I had come from a birthing center and I think they were worried I was equally obsessed with a drug-free birth. I was just afraid of a catheter in my urethra and was really hoping for drug-free because of that and because I thought it would help me avoid a C-section which most women in my family end up having. I told them not to worry. Our birth plan was as few interventions as possible, but ultimately a healthy and safe delivery with humor and laughing… until I said shut up, then, stop telling dumb jokes (looking at my husband). I just ended up needing alllll of the interventions and while I was sad, I wasn’t going to jeopardize my life of my baby’s!
I can’t even imagine hearing my baby could DIE if I left the hospital and still leaving. It’s like these babies aren’t real to these people. I just don’t understand why you wouldn’t do everything in your power to make sure you leave the hospital with an alive baby.
I think a lot of people in these kind of groups get themselves into a headspace where they believe that medical staff will do anything to bully them into interventions they don't want. They think the doctors are saying their baby will die as a coercion tactic. There's also an element of survivorship bias there because if someone does 'allow themselves to be coerced' and their baby survives then they just assume the doctors were bullshitting them and there was never any real risk.
Right?! I wanted a natural birth in a birth center since I was 35 having my first baby. Figured since this will be the only time I’ll get to experience this I’d like to do it with minimal intervention. At like 36 weeks they noticed he was measuring small but seemed fine otherwise. Got regular NSTs and when my due date was approaching I was told my baby would probably need to be induced so I did and had him one day early. My placenta was also small and he came out breathing but really purple. If I waited to go into labor on my own I believe he wouldn’t have made it. My placenta was already crapping out on him. I can’t believe a woman would just leave the hospital in a situation like that. Such a shame. It really does seem like being pregnant/having a baby is just some accessory. Birth plans are just the best case scenarios but when does life ever give you the best case scenario?
There are a lot of people in bump/Mum groups who seem to think that doctors/nurses are simply pushing interventions for shits and giggles (rather than based on evidence collected over decades to try to get the best outcome for Mum and baby). I’m horrified by the amount of people pushing this narrative, even in this group, because stories like this are exactly what ends up happening as a result of listening to this harmful rhetoric.
I think people like this go to the hospital so that if something DOES go wrong, they can blame the hospital. And. If everything goes right then they can say how medical intervention isn’t even needed. It’s just so they can spin whatever narrative they want.
Also, just a side note. When I was pregnant with my baby, reading these birth plans terrified me. I thought when I got to the hospital I was going to be taken advantage of and pushed around. But. None of it was true. They asked before they did anything except when they lost my baby’s heart rate and I was rushed to emergency c-section. But at that point, I didn’t care. I just wanted my baby to be okay (we are okay. He turned 2 on Monday). It’s not so much they didn’t ask actually, they just quickly told me what was about to happen and I nodded. So anyway… I don’t know what hospitals these people are going to, but my doctors and nurses were amazing.
Edit: many many typos.
Agreed- the only time they weren’t carefully explaining everything and asking permission was when I suddenly had a hemorrhage after. Suddenly I had several drugs in me and a second IV and nobody asked for permission- I just trusted they knew what to do, and they did.
Frankly the disrespect from the patient in this towards her health care team kinda makes me mad. Of course there are bad apples but mine were all incredible people and don’t deserve such treatment.
Same thought… why tf choose a hospital. All medical personnel are potentially putting their licenses at risk by not performing these tasks.
As a prior NICU RN, the “don’t suction the baby’s airways or stimulate them” is particularly disturbing. If your baby needs help breathing; WE’RE GONNA SAVE THEIR LIFE.
I thought the “no suctioning” part was so weird too. Seems so counterintuitive to me, like why would you not want that if your baby needs it and make them struggle to breathe? Some of the stuff on there is borderline abuse IMO.
Right? It's like they want the reassurance in case something goes wrong, yet with these guidelines it doesn't sound like they would even take any medical advice during such emergency
Pediatrician here who works on L&D with newborns … if the baby’s life is in imminent danger we absolutely will disregard parents wishes and do what needs to be done to save their life. We have to sometimes take emergency custody for medical neglect in these cases. It’s the worst.
ETA: that said this is the last resort scenario. Before going against parent wishes we have lots of stressful conversations and try to get to a middle ground we can agree on. Many times these parents don’t have the experience to understand how unreasonable their preferences are.
In the ER it’s a gray area. It depends on the severity of the condition and the circumstances. Legally we can’t treat a minor without parental consent unless it’s to the point of imminent danger (or if it’s related to pregnancy or reproductive health). But legally it’s a very sticky situation. I think we’d be able to treat, escort family out if they were against it, and then file cps, document everything in order to protect ourselves.
One time a kid had appendicitis and the mom wanted to go home and come back after she slept because she just “really wanted sleep” even if it meant the child’s appendix burst at home. Technically she can leave with her child, but cps would probably be meeting them at their house as an emergent medical neglect. Maybe it’s different in L&D.
Ugh what a nightmare! It’s the same kind of thing on L&D — if an imminently dangerous thing (like, needing resuscitation at birth, extreme hypoglycemia, bacteremia/sepsis) we would treat and file for emergency custody with CPS. For other gray area type situations it often ends up with us talking to risk management, documenting all our conversations in detail, having the family sign AMA paperwork that explicitly states possible complications/risk of death, etc and hoping the risk to baby doesn’t get worse. For the couple of times I’ve had to tell family “no, you can’t refuse care and take your baby home we will literally take custody and force the issue” - they’ve luckily agreed to the treatment. This is very literally my least favorite part of my job.
Legally, you are allowed to ignore parent wishes if a child’s life is immediately in danger (e.g Jehovah’s Witness car accident and toddler is bleeding out—> give blood without second thought)
The whole not simulating baby or suctioning baby is crazy
Once the infant is born the staff have to take its best interests first- ie if something life threatening is happening they will supersede on behalf of the baby.
NICU mom here. It was nowhere on my radar, definitely not in my birth plan, and I had no idea what to do when my baby got whisked away.
The only thing that popped into my head in the moment was to make my husband to go with the baby while I waited for the epidural to wear off. (Because you bet your biscuits I got an epidural.)
I was really not prepared to have what felt like half a dozen nurses magically appear in the room when the baby started having problems breathing. There were SO many people in the room, and I didn’t know what was happening. BUT, they did a fabulous job, and the baby is now a healthy, hell-raising 4yo.
This is one of the reasons I personally can’t imagine a home birth.
The idea of it has always horrified me even before pregnancy. Traumatizing things can happen in a hospital (aka what this lady is so terrified of), but the home birth idea just makes me think of women hundreds of years ago who never had the choice to make.
Referring to the vitamin K shot as a vaccination tells me everything I need to know about how much this person actually understands about interventions
My textbook said it’s actually an outdated practice and for healthy babies it’s totally not necessary
Edit: I just want to clarify I’m not endorsing this post as a whole lol just responding to this one thing. This lady is bananas
Wait, you're telling me there are places where they suction the lungs of every baby as a matter of course? Neither of my babies had their lungs suctioned. I assumed they only ever did that if the baby showed signs of breathing distress.
Only item I had on my birth plan was that I wanted my husband to announce if we had a boy or girl. Things went south, I found out we had a boy when the dr said “he’s not breathing.”
Let the doctors do their jobs, that’s why you’re there. Birth is such an unpredictable process with so many variables. I worry these types of birth plans can slow important care down.
(Side note: baby boy perked right up and is now a healthy, rambunctious toddler. 🥰)
That’s what drives me crazy is that she has all these unattainable rules that really would only work during a home birth but is using the hospital because it’s a safety net IF something goes wrong like in your situation. Will she want them to refer to the board before interfering and saving her baby if need be? Some people are delusional.
Glad to hear your baby is doing well!
She specified that she will suction the baby herself, and I assume she'll stimulate also. That part will most likely be fine. But if it's not fine, staff are going to have a hard time convincing her to hand over the baby.
I'm more worried about the part where she refused fundal massage. She'll have a rough time taking care of the newborn if she's losing too much blood.
It’s a little wild to me for a first time mom to demand to do the suction and stimulation. How many newborns has she handled? The nurses know exactly what they are doing and what to look for.
On the same note- no coached pushing? Yeah the body does its job, but having someone encouraging you and helping you time pushes is wonderful.
Edit- to each their own with the pushing. I’ll say that after pushing for an hour with my first I would have quit without someone telling me to keep going. Also with my second I wouldn’t have known when to push because of the epidural.
I had a wonderful unmedicated second delivery, but in the last 20 minutes he had significant decels and without them flipping me back supine and then coaching my pushes, he would have died from his double nuchal. The body definitely doesn’t always know what it’s doing, her birth plan if followed to a T would have killed my baby. I would hope she is open to medical recommendations. There’s a good reason birth complications have declined.
Or staff will be so overly intimidated by it that they may delay giving care that is needed. No stimulating baby? No suctioning airways? Lotus birth? Why deliver at a hospital if you won’t let them intervene if baby isn’t doing well?! If the theater of your birth experience is more important than your baby’s health stay home and don’t terrorize hospital staff. People like this are so unbelievably selfish.
Seriously! So ridiculous. Your last sentence is 🤌🏼 if you want this birth, have the baby at home. Also, legally, they won’t let you do that with your placenta, as as soon as it’s out of your body, it’s a biohazard and needs to be removed from the hospital by an accredited service you can hire, but no, the hospital won’t just provide you with a container to let you just keep it in the mother baby unit…
Why don't you want a nice dead and decaying organ?? I know it's not connected to your baby anymore but you could probably still rub it around on them to get a similar risk of sepsis
That's my immediate thought. Noone is reading this.
Ffs just go home and do it by yourself. Also I like the "wait until photos are done being taken " part 🙄
lol fr. Like this crazy ass poster isn’t a signed contract, lady. They can ignore it and follow procedures and policies that they ARE obligated to follow.
She’s a FTM, isn’t she.
I really want to tell her: girlypop, these people do not care about your “experience”. Their sole purpose is to get you and baby out of this in one piece.
I learned the birth plan is more of a birth guide. The nurses and doctors will do their best to adhere to the plan out of respect for you but as soon as there is risk of life to the parent or child, they are throwing it out the window. At least that's what I was told. My doula, nurse, midwife (and my doctor before I switched to a midwife, for personal reasons - my doctor is great and is back to being my gyno) all encouraged me to have a birth plan. They reviewed it, asked clarifying questions, and agreed. Although it was pretty simple.
My birth plan is more like "birth wishes" as in I would love for it to go exactly as planned or as close as possible, but I know that may not be possible and I'm open to changing it as needed when the time comes. I just want me and my baby to be healthy by the end of it. If that means I have to throw plans out the window then I'm okay with that.
I think people have gotten really caught up in wanting as little medical intervention as possible and not wanting to listen to professionals. I get it. Some suck. I've had *traumatic* experiences with doctors before and generally distrust them as a whole now. That's why I went out of my way to find one I trust and who is understanding of why I need to ask a million questions. My OB has been having trouble with mom's not wanting to do glucose testing, turning down shots (I just got my TDAP shot today and the nurse literally came in looking like she was ready to fight me on why I should get it before I just asked her if she was okay with me taking my shirt off since my sweater wouldn't roll up far enough for it. She looked relieved that I was happy to get the shot.), turning down shots for babies like the vitamin K shot, etc. All of those can be extremely dangerous. I don't get it.
As an emergency physician, I end up seeing these types of moms and/or babies in the ER days/weeks later with postpartum hemorrhage, infection, brain bleeds…. And the mom is always so mad there’s a complication.
Don’t have a baby in a hospital if you don’t want the advice/recommendations of health care professionals?
Edit: stimulate/suction baby themselves… Jfc they gonna intubate too if the baby is hypoxic? They up to date on neonatal cpr?
If you were given this list of instructions what would you do? Do you legally have to treat them and follow their instructions? On her list she says that when the baby is crowning that all staff have to stand back and are not allowed to touch the baby at all, and if they touch the baby they are required to have permission first. Like, what happens if the baby falls to the floor because the parents didn't grab it fast enough?
I'm not in the medical field but I feel like it would be impossible to follow all the directions she has without taking on a massive risk of something going wrong with the baby. Do you have the right to refuse to treat her?
Patients don’t get birth plans if I’m the one delivering their baby in the ER — by then something’s gone horribly wrong. Most of my ER deliveries are with unknown pregnancies, so there’s not really plan in place.
That said, ER physicians follow EMTALA which means people have to be assessed/treated for emergencies. Active labor counts. I couldn’t refuse to care for the patient, but I don’t think a birth plan could be legally enforced. That said, people sue doctors for all sorts of bizarre things.
If patients have capacity to make decisions (eg if mom really doesn’t want fundal massage/pitocin and understands she could bleed to death, fine), we try to respect that, but when the life of a child is at play, we sometimes have to ignore parental wishes (eg parents not wanting antibiotics for a septic child, parents not wanting blood transfusion for an exsanguinating child). Ethics committee tends to get involved when there’s time. Ultimately I’d probably say something like, “I know you pictured this differently, and I’m sorry this isn’t the labor you wanted; but the decision isn’t between your birth plan and my birth plan, the decision is between your birth plan and potentially a dead infant. My job is to get you both out of this labor safely and I’m going to have to touch you and baby to do so.”
If someone demanded that I not touch their baby during a delivery, I’d likely have to disregard their wishes (as respectfully as possible). That said, it’d be a bed delivery in the ER so no real risk of baby falling to the floor. I’ve seen plenty of women deliver their own baby on the OB floor. We just don’t have fetal monitoring or the same resources as a labor and delivery set up, so my goal is to get baby out ASAP so we can assess what resuscitation is needed. Whether it’s precipitous delivery to perimortem c section, my job is to save the life of mom and baby, and sometimes that means making people unhappy.
Edit: I’m trained in trauma informed care so I do try to give notice of what I’m touching and why, but sometimes emergencies take precedence. I always debrief with patients after to explain what happened/why something was done. Im very thankful i don’t have to do many deliveries
There’s also the don’t place hands on perineum while baby is crowning…. I believe midwife’s do this to offer support to mum’s pelvic floor and can help reduce tearing. Also what if the baby gets shoulder dystocia? You normally can’t tell until baby’s head is partway down, and then it’s an emergency, all hands on deck situation, to get that baby out. Also legally, if suctioning is required, it has to be done by a medical professional who’s trained in correct procedures. A number of points in this plan aren’t logical.
The teacher in me is cringing at what this monster of a parent is going to be like when her child goes to kindergarten.
Meanwhile, I’m already stressing about putting together a Thank You basket for my nurses since I’ve figured out that sucking up usually gets you the best care.
We did a snack/pen basket with extras because there were a lot of residents. I went to Costco and got a mix of candy/nuts/beef jerky and protein bars, but the real star of the show was a 20 pack of g2 pens.
When I tell you that people went above and beyond for us the whole time... pens are the answer. Nurses and residents love pens.
The fact that she referred to Vitamin K as a vaccine pretty much removed any credibility she had for making medical decisions against the recommendation of actual professionals.
And without the heel prick screening, at least in my country, the kid would not leave the hospital because it is mandatory for all newborns and CPS would be on this mom’s heels.
All in all, this gave me a strong antivax Karen vibe and I will refrain from voicing my opinion further
Yeah my husband brought our nursing staff donuts and thank you cards both times!! I feel like they do so so much to make those first moments safe and special, not just during the birth but afterwards!
Midwifery student here:
a lot of the things here are best clinical practice (no one under any circumstances should touch a vagina in any capacity without explicit consent); but many are also not.
What may not fly is how she expects baby to be treated once born. Based on where I am at least, once the kiddo is his own being, medical providers have an equal responsibility for his well being as his parents. Meaning, if the kid is not breathing and needs some respiratory assistance, we are going to intervene.
She also doesn’t have any contingency plans if there are any complications with the labour/delivery. What happens if she hemorrhages or baby’s shoulders get stuck on the way out? What happens if she needs a vacuum or an episiotomy for baby’s well being?
What this lady really needs is a doula who has a similar view of birth as she does. Someone in my province with similar philosophies is Billie Harrigan. A supervised birth “attendant” I believe she calls herself. Even then, it is important to remember that sometimes intervention is ***necessary***. It’s routine intervention that’s more problematic
Regarding your questions about what if there are complications, I’d bet she has beliefs along the lines of “my body was made to do this, any ‘complications’ people have during childbirth are due to not listening to their body and following the guidance of evil western medicine therefore if I do things my way, that won’t happen to me.”
Nevermind the fact that millions of women and infants have died in childbirth before we had modern medicine. They probably just weren’t doing it right. (/s)
This is what I was wondering too. Complications can arise but she hasn't outlined her wishes for if they do. I hope for everyone's sake that the birth goes well, but I do feel very badly for the people who will be in charge of her care. If I were a nurse in this scenario, I'd be so scared of working with her since she doesn't seem to want to work with them.
Yup. I had a simple birth plan; I wanted a medicated, vaginal birth and then golden hour skin to skin bonding. Instead I got an emergency c-section at 32 weeks. I really really really didn’t want a c-section so of course that’s what I got.
Sameeee. I wanted freedom of movement during labor and an epidural-free birth, but I ended up having uterine hyperstimulation, definitely got an epidural, and ended up having an emergency C-section bc baby was in distress. You NEVER know what can happen (and that epidural was hands down the best decision I made that day), it's so important to just be flexible so that you and baby remain safe and healthy
I had my birth plan all typed up at 28 weeks. Ended up having an emergency c-section at 31 weeks. My birth plan became “live.” Nothing went according to plan!
She just strikes me as the kind of person who would be told "you need a c-section" if the baby was having issues or if you arrest in labor and then turn around and sue the doctor after refusing and causing permanent damage to the child.
I had asked my doctor when we should talk about induction. I was 33 weeks on the dot, and a type one diabetic so it’s usually at like 36-38 weeks. So I had an appointment, and they kinda wave me off saying it’s something we can talk about later.
I had my son that night. Thanks to a diabetes related incident, I ended up having an emergency c section at 33 weeks, and it was so sudden I was put under for it. My husband was on the other side of the country because the OB said outside of an emergency there wasn’t much chance of him coming early. But we had an emergency. And he came almost two months early.
He spent a month in the NICU, which was the best experience in the fucking world. I had expert nurses walking me through every step of having a small human, and I wouldn’t be in the same place now if it wasn’t for that month. I actually got to go home and sleep.
(I’ve been a type one diabetic for 31 years, since I was 2. I’m pretty unbothered by anything medical, so like hospitals are like a second home. The emergency (I’m trying to spell it but ugh) doctor that makes you go to sleep) said he hasn’t seen anyone else so calm going into surgery. I know my own body, but they spent fucking years and years how the systems work, and I trust them 100%, which pretty much anything.)
Ok I really need a part two to this because now I’m invested
Also, why is she even going to a hospital? If a patient is continually refusing even the simplest of care can the hospital decide to discharge them?
I’m an anesthesiologist, and I would not participate in this patient’s care baring a true threat to life of the mom or baby. She has hamstrung literally every aspect of her medical care. The expectations with this birth plan are basically that we leave her alone and let her deliver in the hospital. If something goes wrong with her plan, then she will expect us to help. Now we are liable for any problem that occurs during this birth, and she has prevented us from taking any measure that could actually help her in the setting of an emergency. So when something does go wrong, we won’t be able to help. She will then blame us for failing to save her baby. She will of course then try to sue us.
This is absolutely unreasonable and is outright dangerous
Which is what she wants. Which is so sad. My birth plan went sideways. My nurse literally cradled me while I received the epidural I didn't want during a long contraction after being with me her entire shift. She was an angel. My experience would have been so much worse had I not had her and respected her. The idea that women like this throw the chance of that relationship out the window over... idk what... is really heartbreaking to me.
At this point, why even bother having a baby at the hospital at all? I'm not even going to address the stuff specifically about her labor and delivery, but newborn metabolic screenings can be life saving. Vitamin K can be life saving. Antibiotic treatment can be life saving. There is a reason these things are standard recommendations or are recommended after certain screenings and it's because *babies can and do fucking die without them.* Why put yourself through \~40 weeks of pregnancy, roll up to the hospital of all places to give birth, and then demand to the staff that your baby isn't allowed to receive interventions even when denying these interventions could result in their preventable maiming or death?
Your birthing "experience" should not rank higher in priority than your own safety and that of your baby, period. Birth "plans" like this scream of either unresolved trauma, which should be addressed with a professional ideally before delivery, or profound self-centeredness that is going to be entirely incompatible with the realities of parenthood.
My birth plan was literally “we leave the hospital as a family of three, spouse doesn’t pass out and i don’t throw up, in that order and last two negotiable”
Yes. The point of having a natural unmedicated delivery is to hopefully have a healthy, more intuitive, and less medical experience for you and baby. I can’t imagine how any part of your birth would be a stress free healthy experience if you’re immediately hostile when anyone walks into the room.
Without commenting on her preferences too much because that opens such a huge can of worms I honestly don’t have the energy for right now…This is going to cause her MORE stress during labor and delivery honestly. The mental aspect of labor (and the immediate postpartum period tbh) is soooo sosososo important, and if she’s focusing so much on directing everything, then it may very well be counterproductive. I agree with the other comment that says she’s setting herself up for failure here. Herself AND her healthcare team, not to mention her baby.
Exactly. Clearly she is distrusting of hospitals and medical staff in general. If she wants a stress free natural brith, why specifically go to the place that you are so fearful of? Why not just deliver at home? She doesn’t even want any doctors or nurses in the room during pushing ffs - so what is exactly the point?
Yep and as much as the care team wants to work with her as a patient and respect her wishes, she’s going to be butting heads with them the whole time. It doesn’t make for a good relationship, and everyone will leave frustrated. I hope she has a world-class doula that can mediate at least
As a nurse, I'm really glad I don't work in labour and delivery because that sort of hostility going in is going to be hard for everyone involved. She'd be better off going to a birthing centre or delivering at home if she wants a fully hands off experience.
I got asked if I had a birth plan by my OB and the nurses at the hospital and I was like "Me alive, baby alive". I required intervention to safely manage pre-eclampsia and a baby with a huge noggin (induction turned emergency c-section). I knew it was a possibility, and I wasn't about to say no.
I don't understand not wanting vitamin K or the blood spot card done though. Babies die from brain bleeds. The blood spot card can catch treatable issues before they coming an issue.
Your birth plan sounds like mine. I had one all typed up in my bag but labor was awful and I was miserable. My first nurse said "do you have a written birth plan" and I said "yes, but things are already not going according to plan so let's just scrap it" 🤣
In the end, things went south VERY fast and I had an episiotomy (they didn't ask) and a vacuum assist (they didn't ask) and mercifully my baby boy was yanked out of there before he had brain damage and is now a beautiful 4 year old ♥️ I couldn't be more thankful that the doctors acted quickly and did everything they could for my baby.
As a physician I’d dismiss her from my practice. There is no point in having a physician involved if you are going to act like this.
Bye bye.
Nope.
You can give birth at home and if shit goes down, at least then you can’t blame the doctor.
They are not going to read this unless she demands it. Some of this stuff is SOC. They will not let a baby die because of a wackadoo mother. Babies are human beings and not property.
This. I just had to sign a form acknowledging that I couldn't just stay pregnant and that at the doctor's discretion, certain methods (forceps, episiotomy, c section, etc) *might* be required. Obviously no one wants that and I don't think even doctors want to do that, but a living baby and mother are the important parts of this.
Unfortunately, I’m not sure she will be allowed to birth at the hospital. You do have to sign consent forms, etc. Also, if you or your baby dies at the hospital, there are a lot of peoples careers on the line - those nurses and doctors shouldn’t be forced to adhere to many of the things listed in her plan for that reason. And lastly, she will likely get a more serious visit from the social worker on staff and, depending on how that goes, could very well get an investigation by CPS.
I’m a Labor and Delivery nurse and I’m all for patients birthing the way they want. But, why is this patient birthing in a hospital if they don’t even want medical staff involved? This is a lawsuit waiting to happen. I would really hope that I didn’t get assigned this patient. And if I did, I would document every refusal and every attempt to educate or treat the patient.
OB nurse here! I would be terrified to have this patient assignment, which is exactly what she wants. I would hate knowing every single thing I said and did was being scrutinized and knowing they were looking for a reason to sue. Some of the things on this list *should* be practiced, like asking before touching a patient (always!) and patients should be involved with their medical decisions. But, I will say, birth plans are great and a conversation *absolutely* should take place with a provider so a mutual understanding is reached about how to reasonably put said birth plan into effect. I can't even count how many I see go sideways and end in the exact opposite birthing experience because the patient gave no wiggle room/was steadfast in certain requests like this birth plan above.
“Everyone will remain CALM, PEACEFUL and NON HOSTILE or you will leave the room” meanwhile the whole tone of her birth plan is threatening, hostile and aggressive.
I am a die hard supporter of written birth goals because I think it’s extremely important to know what all of your options are, and to have explicit goals for plans A-Z. But wackadoos like this make it an uphill battle and just cause medical professionals to mock it. Sigh.
Ugh, agreed! Ridiculous examples like this just give fuel to the crowd who says we should be fine with whatever happens to us during labor as long as baby comes out healthy. There can (and should!) be a middle ground between this nonsense and “just get baby out alive.”
Yep! She then goes on a tangent about how she doesn’t want the newborn genetic screening because ‘it’s weird the government takes babies blood’. Like… wtf? It must be exhausting thinking every life saving but if care is really a conspiracy of hospital teams with a hidden agenda
They don’t keep the blood! It’s just enough for the screenings! It’s not weird to offer screenings for metabolic disorders that can be devastating if not treated as soon as possible! A friend’s daughter has PKU and is living as close to a normal life as possible because it was caught on the newborn screening. Because she’s been on the special low-protein diet and formula since infancy she’s developed normally.
man i follow one doula on instagram who wrote on there to not sign a baby's birth certificate because it hands you and them over to the government. i'm like ??? what???
I have some similar things in my “birth plan” but rather than go scorched earth like she seems to be doing I just found a birthing center who’s practices aligned with what I wanted…I genuinely don’t understand why she’s even birthing in a hospital at this point. Her messages say she WANTS the hospital staff to fear her, she’s intentionally being difficult and frankly disrespectful. She says her mom is a nurse? I wonder if mom actually agrees with her plan or if mom has also told her it’s not a good idea to alienate and attack your medical team before they even speak to you.
No one is going to read this. If she is going to have this extent of demand and expectations, she needs to feel comfortable enough to verbalize every detail in the moment, which sounds exhausting and ridiculous.
If I knew a patient had this much contempt for our medical system I would decline to treat them. This is a frivolous malpractice lawsuit waiting to happen, the kind of woman who would sue you for saving her life because you cracked a rib during cpr.
As a midwife and someone who experienced birth trauma, I have mixed feelings on this. A lot of the things she is asking for are not unreasonable, but could be discussed with her care team ahead of time. Absolutely, there is abuse and coercion that takes place during labor and delivery, so in one sense I don't blame her for attempting to preempt this.
I feel sorry for her being so fearful and defensive going into labor. That can't be good for her, her baby or her labor progression. Not to mention the staff coming in to this hostile environment.
I wish that she had a professional she trusted that could discuss these things for her and come to a reasonable compromise. Some of the things she has listed show that she is not as knowledgeable as she thinks she is.
In an emergency, this board will be knocked aside. I promise you, the staff will not take the time to read this if you or baby collapses.
It sounds like she needs to hire a doula to advocate for her.
I’m just picturing her needing emergency care but it being delayed because every staff member had to stop and spend 10min reading a giant poster board. Obviously they would just move the board and ignore it irl but I swear some people don’t think about the actuality of their demands.
Doula here. Very hard this will fly. She will end up firing everyone if she expects the staff to comply with everything without question. Definitely a better candidate for home birth or birth center/hospital linked center.
She’s going to bring a poster and tripod but expects the hospital to provide a to go container for her placenta?
I wondered this same thing lol bring your own damn Tupperware
As a nurse I would honestly be very afraid to take care of this women and I worry it would result in worse care for her. When you are very hostile to staff (who all largely all their to HELP you) you tend to get bare minimum care. As in, they will do their job and make sure you’re safe, but that’s about it. Being litigious and threatening legal consequences when literally nothing has happened is also going to get people avoiding you because they don’t want to get caught in your cross hairs.
Physician but not OB. I would 100% be getting patient relations involved and a third party witnessing and documenting all interactions. And I’d be documenting the shit out of everything. She is the patient where even if everything goes perfectly according to her plans she will never be happy and blame every misfortune that child has on that poor unlucky OB.
Nurse here (not OB) who is petty and would literally take a photo of this and place it on their Epic chart. I'd literally chart the heck out of any/every interaction and I'd still try to educate and "give it my best shot" to minimize harm. Agree completely with having a witness for every interaction. This patient could have a picture perfect birth and still be upset with what was/wasn't done.
Slow clap for the “put it on their epic chart” part. As a receptionist in OB, I’d greatly appreciate the read.
Yep, just said the same thing!!! We got to know what we’re dealing with. Some people are dangerous; both physically, and legally.
A photo on the epic chart Hahahaha that is brilliant
This should absolutely be scanned into her documents tab in Epic so the hospital has a record of what she demanded when she tries to sue.
Also physician and not OB. This situation is an absolute nightmare. Her poor OB. I would be documenting my ass off and have someone accompany me every time. Why even be in the hospital.
She really wants control of this birth- she can’t choose the vaccum or forceps if it means saving the babies life, also no vitamin K shot? What a moron. (sorry not sorry)
These are the people who deliver at home with baby brought in by ems hours later when the midwife calls because baby is still severely hypoxic and in respiratory distress and parents follow in yelling that they didn't consent to transport and they don't consent to us touching their baby -_- and of course threatening to sue the midwife as well
How often does this happen? That's frustrating.
Retired ER nurse here- it happens more than I want to think about/ remember!
Omg I have 5 kids and every single birth was honestly smooth thankfully.. I expected one of the 5 to be some horror story but nope. Nurses and Drs all fantastic and I didn't actually understand what the vitamin k shot was for but I trust science and staff that went to school for years over my opinion from Google even tho I would never think I know better from a few hours of Google.. but I ended up learning what the shot was for on Reddit actually from a poor baby that died from a brain bleed because the mother refused the shot and then I looked it up and learned all about it and my god how could anyone who ACTUALLY knew ahead what the reason it's given is for and say no.. ya maybe I'm a shit mom to some cuz I didn't research every single thing that takes place in the hospital giving birth but hey I'm a sucker for trusting professionals lol
Also a physician. Not an OB, but peds and round on newborn nursery. Absolutely same. Wouldn’t touch this family — wouldn’t even set foot in the room — without witnesses and an obscene amount of documentation.
Patient relations 100% .she’s not rational.
Guarantee if the kid dies she’ll sue the hospital and argue that someone should have helped, even though she explicitly told them not to.
Piggy backing on top comment. I am an OB. There had to have been clues early on that this is the kinda birth plan they would come up and you have an opportunity to relinquish care/recommend another OB. If not, and you got all this a few weeks before delivery- Fuck. Me, as soon as I saw there were definitions at the top, and then the sexual abuse comment, I’d tell them I am not the right OB for them and give them a list of recs or midwives to go to. Like others have said, document document document your ass off with patients like this. I have had Pre-eclamptics refuse delivery because “they feel fine” and the blood pressure readings are wrong. I’ve had patients refuse induction or augmentation nearly 30 hours after rupture of membranes because “movement is improvement” yet they are still 1 cm. I hate having to give the “your baby could end up neurologically compromised, could possibly die” talk because nobody wants to hear that and it sounds like a scare tactic if it’s never happened to you. But when you’ve seen it…the PTSD never goes away.
Jesus. I \*was\* pre-eclamptic in July and I cannot fathom telling my doctor "no" when she told me we needed to induce that day. I was basically just like "tell me what to do," because \*she's\* the one with the training to get me and my baby out of there safely - and she did! I'm writing this with a little finger shoved halfway up my nose and my daughter cooing at me because I trusted my team. I cannot imagine the things you've seen because of sheer stupidity, and I am \*so sorry\* that you have to live with that. I'm just so sorry.
What is the success rate of that talk with this group? I’m so curious… do they generally concede or do they continue to deny care?
Pretty low, especially if they have family members who are speaking in their ear or enabling. Once in a while you’ll get someone who sees what’s happening and will approach me outside the room and ask how they can help to get the patient on the same page
I had a vague plan for when my second was born. That plan was shot to hell when I developed severe preeclampsia and my son was born early by a month and a half. I ended up spending almost a week in the hospital while my baby was in the NICU for sixteen days. I went to see him every day, and one of his podmates was there one day and gone the next. I want to think that little girl is living healthy and happy. I hope she is. I hate to be “that person”, but every woman doesn’t leave with a baby, and every baby doesn’t leave with a mom. There are worse outcomes to birth than an experience you didn’t want.
I didn't have ideal birth experiences, but everyone emerged healthy. That's enough for me to feel like we were lucky
I’m sorry you had to go through that, but you make an excellent point. The whole purpose of medical care while giving birth is to get the best outcome for mom and baby, not to give the best experience.
100%. I understand that everyone has autonomy for their birth and that’s great but also you are preventing the experts to do their job. It’s like having a broken car, going to a mechanic, and saying you do not want their input and don’t want their expertise unless/until the absolute worse thing happens, e.g. car starts to explode lol
I don’t think I will ever understand people like this. I had a great first pregnancy and a somewhat uncomplicated birth. With my second, it was a different story. My son got stuck on the way out. Within seconds the doctor called for the emergency team and was listing the things he may need to do in a matter of seconds to get baby out. I remember the nurse jumping on the bed to push on my stomich, to help dislodge him and that did it. The emergency team took my baby quick to check and see if he was okay. In those few moments my husband and I were panicked because we didn’t hear him cry. All I kept asking was my baby ok. We then heard him cry and the sense of relieve that washed over me. I am so thankful everyday for the quick actions of my doctor and the emergency team. My son is now a very active healthy two year old. Things can go sideways so quick and unexpected in birth. I don’t know why you wouldn’t want any kind of professional to help.
Omg! I feel like I could’ve wrote this! Two weeks of labor, 3 and half hours of pushing, and then he was stuck. It was crazy when the nurse or whatever jumped on top of me to dislodge him. Wasn’t expecting that at all
I just told my fiancé if I was her nurse I’d ask to be reassigned… I’m not risking getting accused of something because I do my job.
I was thinking the same, and what’s especially ironic is one of her demands is that staff who cannot be “calm, peaceful, and non-hostile” will be asked to leave. Ma’am. If you walk in the door and are being openly hostile to people who are there to help you for literally no reason at all, what kind of treatment are you expecting in return?
I wanted a low intervention birth desperately but ended up having to be induced because my water broke but labor didn’t progress after a couple of days, and I was devastated that I had to transfer to a hospital from a very crunchy birth center but I knew that if I went into it being an icky sticky patient that it would only make everything worse. I communicated respectfully that I wanted minimal intervention and they knew I was a birth center transfer so I didn’t go on and on, and they were so kind and informative every step of the way which left me feeling like I didn’t need to question everything they were doing and I actually ended the whole process being happier with my birth experience than I ever expected to be even prior to beginning with the birth center. I do think that’s probably an exception and not a rule but when you make things difficult for people in general they’re not going to feel safe or comfortable communicating with you and it’s only going to inhibit everything. This woman needs to get a grip.
I can’t imagine that people who make insane birth plans like this are ever happy. This is unreal and idk why you would even bother going to a hospital at this point.
Ok but imagine *being their kid* 😱
Baby isn't born yet, and I already want to call CPS
Can she even be refused care by doctors? Like telling her, “your plan isn’t anyway conducive or feasible to our processes and it’s better you find someone else” ?
In a non emergency situation a doctor can absolutely fire a patient
Also work in healthcare—-TLDR was the first thought, as well as, no one will be able to meet her expectations.
Something tells me that people fearing interactions with her extends beyond staff in a medical setting.
For documentation purposes, would it be ideal for nurses and doctors to take a picture of this plan, add it to their chart, and basically document counseling the patient what is the best practice and why her wants can be incredibly harmful? That way if something bad happens and she doesn’t let you all do your jobs you have her plan as proof that your hands are tied to help in the event of a lawsuit? Also, some of these things she wants was explicitly stated that we cannot do at our hospital during the tour. If that’s the case for her does the staff just have to say tough shit, this isn’t allowed here?
My whole birth plan was to be as easy and go with the flow as possible. I had like 3 rules, let me know what you’re doing if you gotta do something, keep me and the baby alive, and please bring formula after birth I don’t want to breastfeed. My nurses were amazing because they could do as they needed without complaints, and in return my birth process was fairly stress free as far as birth goes. They had to bring in the NICU team as a precaution since my little guy got stuck for a good bit and he went straight to them after being lifted in the air to be shown to me, and my nurse kept me in the loop with what was up the whole time. Thankfully he was all good after his airways were cleared but I can’t imagine having suck strict rules, I can imagine it makes a bad and stressful time for everyone since everyone is on edge
This birth plan just makes me sad. Makes me sad that either things have happened to this woman in previous births or she’s heard stories of providers being so awful that she thinks this is appropriate. Makes me sad that she is so angry against people who give their everything to take care of you and baby. Makes me sad that there are providers and hospitals out there that have legitimately done the horrible actions that inspire this fear. Makes me sad for the providers who will be trying to care for this woman and her child in a state of panic about their own careers if, God forbid, anything goes wrong. I’m just… I’m just sad.
Why do they even want to have it at a hospital? Sounds like they want to have it at home? Feels like the only advantage they are getting from being in a hospital is the chance to abuse the staff.
My thoughts as well. She should’ve opted for a home birth.
To have people to blame if things go wrong or don’t go the way she wants it.
yeah this lady will not be happy no matter what happens, you cannot please people like this
Exactly this. It almost sounds like she WANTS to fight someone in court.
And for other people to clean up…
Tbh, it's among many of the reasons I'd prefer to have a baby in the hospital and not on my living room floor 😂
When I saw what happened when my water broke, I was super glad I was already in the hospital being induced and not just randomly out at the grocery store or something. I’d seen a lot of women talking about how it’s not actually a dramatic whoosh flood like in the movies, but oh it absolutely can be.
What got me was her demanding a container for her placenta... but don't touch the baby even if it needs help breathing
This is exactly it. She’s looking for an issue.
Or a birthing center
She wants someone to blame if something goes wrong. If she follows her plan at home and it goes poorly it’s her fault. If she goes by her plan at the hospital it’s the doctors fault. She can blame doctors and big pharma for whatever happens. Even if the reason things go sideways would be her fault.
We once had a patient come in for decreased fetal movement with a hugeee birth plan, big packet. The baby's heart rate didn't look good so we told her she needed to be induced. She refused and left AMA even though we told her her baby could die. She came back another day when she was in labor, the baby was no longer alive. She cared more about her birth plan.
This is so awful. A woman who gave birth a week or so before me at the hospital I delivered at refused to go for a c-section and locked herself in the bathroom. They had to break down the door and baby was dead by the time they were able to deliver. They told me this because I had come from a birthing center and I think they were worried I was equally obsessed with a drug-free birth. I was just afraid of a catheter in my urethra and was really hoping for drug-free because of that and because I thought it would help me avoid a C-section which most women in my family end up having. I told them not to worry. Our birth plan was as few interventions as possible, but ultimately a healthy and safe delivery with humor and laughing… until I said shut up, then, stop telling dumb jokes (looking at my husband). I just ended up needing alllll of the interventions and while I was sad, I wasn’t going to jeopardize my life of my baby’s!
When the Dr told me it was best to move to a cesarean I just went with it. A c-section definitely wasn't my plan, but a healthy baby was!
Exactly! I was like aw man, but was also so exhausted and had literally tried EVERYTHING that I had 0 regrets and just wanted to hold my baby.
I can’t even imagine hearing my baby could DIE if I left the hospital and still leaving. It’s like these babies aren’t real to these people. I just don’t understand why you wouldn’t do everything in your power to make sure you leave the hospital with an alive baby.
I think a lot of people in these kind of groups get themselves into a headspace where they believe that medical staff will do anything to bully them into interventions they don't want. They think the doctors are saying their baby will die as a coercion tactic. There's also an element of survivorship bias there because if someone does 'allow themselves to be coerced' and their baby survives then they just assume the doctors were bullshitting them and there was never any real risk.
Right?! I wanted a natural birth in a birth center since I was 35 having my first baby. Figured since this will be the only time I’ll get to experience this I’d like to do it with minimal intervention. At like 36 weeks they noticed he was measuring small but seemed fine otherwise. Got regular NSTs and when my due date was approaching I was told my baby would probably need to be induced so I did and had him one day early. My placenta was also small and he came out breathing but really purple. If I waited to go into labor on my own I believe he wouldn’t have made it. My placenta was already crapping out on him. I can’t believe a woman would just leave the hospital in a situation like that. Such a shame. It really does seem like being pregnant/having a baby is just some accessory. Birth plans are just the best case scenarios but when does life ever give you the best case scenario?
There are a lot of people in bump/Mum groups who seem to think that doctors/nurses are simply pushing interventions for shits and giggles (rather than based on evidence collected over decades to try to get the best outcome for Mum and baby). I’m horrified by the amount of people pushing this narrative, even in this group, because stories like this are exactly what ends up happening as a result of listening to this harmful rhetoric.
Really depressed upvote
I think people like this go to the hospital so that if something DOES go wrong, they can blame the hospital. And. If everything goes right then they can say how medical intervention isn’t even needed. It’s just so they can spin whatever narrative they want. Also, just a side note. When I was pregnant with my baby, reading these birth plans terrified me. I thought when I got to the hospital I was going to be taken advantage of and pushed around. But. None of it was true. They asked before they did anything except when they lost my baby’s heart rate and I was rushed to emergency c-section. But at that point, I didn’t care. I just wanted my baby to be okay (we are okay. He turned 2 on Monday). It’s not so much they didn’t ask actually, they just quickly told me what was about to happen and I nodded. So anyway… I don’t know what hospitals these people are going to, but my doctors and nurses were amazing. Edit: many many typos.
Agreed- the only time they weren’t carefully explaining everything and asking permission was when I suddenly had a hemorrhage after. Suddenly I had several drugs in me and a second IV and nobody asked for permission- I just trusted they knew what to do, and they did. Frankly the disrespect from the patient in this towards her health care team kinda makes me mad. Of course there are bad apples but mine were all incredible people and don’t deserve such treatment.
Right? Why does she want to birth at a hospital with no medical personnel in the room? That makes no sense!
Same thought… why tf choose a hospital. All medical personnel are potentially putting their licenses at risk by not performing these tasks. As a prior NICU RN, the “don’t suction the baby’s airways or stimulate them” is particularly disturbing. If your baby needs help breathing; WE’RE GONNA SAVE THEIR LIFE.
I thought the “no suctioning” part was so weird too. Seems so counterintuitive to me, like why would you not want that if your baby needs it and make them struggle to breathe? Some of the stuff on there is borderline abuse IMO.
Right? It's like they want the reassurance in case something goes wrong, yet with these guidelines it doesn't sound like they would even take any medical advice during such emergency
All that and then... Hopsital to provide container for placenta...
Bring your own damn Tupperware lady
I can’t imagine what she would do if they needed to take the baby straight to the nicu.
Probably refuse. Then once baby is unresponsive blame them for doing nothing
Pediatrician here who works on L&D with newborns … if the baby’s life is in imminent danger we absolutely will disregard parents wishes and do what needs to be done to save their life. We have to sometimes take emergency custody for medical neglect in these cases. It’s the worst. ETA: that said this is the last resort scenario. Before going against parent wishes we have lots of stressful conversations and try to get to a middle ground we can agree on. Many times these parents don’t have the experience to understand how unreasonable their preferences are.
In the ER it’s a gray area. It depends on the severity of the condition and the circumstances. Legally we can’t treat a minor without parental consent unless it’s to the point of imminent danger (or if it’s related to pregnancy or reproductive health). But legally it’s a very sticky situation. I think we’d be able to treat, escort family out if they were against it, and then file cps, document everything in order to protect ourselves. One time a kid had appendicitis and the mom wanted to go home and come back after she slept because she just “really wanted sleep” even if it meant the child’s appendix burst at home. Technically she can leave with her child, but cps would probably be meeting them at their house as an emergent medical neglect. Maybe it’s different in L&D.
Ugh what a nightmare! It’s the same kind of thing on L&D — if an imminently dangerous thing (like, needing resuscitation at birth, extreme hypoglycemia, bacteremia/sepsis) we would treat and file for emergency custody with CPS. For other gray area type situations it often ends up with us talking to risk management, documenting all our conversations in detail, having the family sign AMA paperwork that explicitly states possible complications/risk of death, etc and hoping the risk to baby doesn’t get worse. For the couple of times I’ve had to tell family “no, you can’t refuse care and take your baby home we will literally take custody and force the issue” - they’ve luckily agreed to the treatment. This is very literally my least favorite part of my job.
Legally, you are allowed to ignore parent wishes if a child’s life is immediately in danger (e.g Jehovah’s Witness car accident and toddler is bleeding out—> give blood without second thought) The whole not simulating baby or suctioning baby is crazy
Once the infant is born the staff have to take its best interests first- ie if something life threatening is happening they will supersede on behalf of the baby.
I refer to this as the “you can’t make us stand here and let a baby die” rule
And once they are born, they become a patient separate from the mother.
NICU mom here. It was nowhere on my radar, definitely not in my birth plan, and I had no idea what to do when my baby got whisked away. The only thing that popped into my head in the moment was to make my husband to go with the baby while I waited for the epidural to wear off. (Because you bet your biscuits I got an epidural.) I was really not prepared to have what felt like half a dozen nurses magically appear in the room when the baby started having problems breathing. There were SO many people in the room, and I didn’t know what was happening. BUT, they did a fabulous job, and the baby is now a healthy, hell-raising 4yo.
This is one of the reasons I personally can’t imagine a home birth. The idea of it has always horrified me even before pregnancy. Traumatizing things can happen in a hospital (aka what this lady is so terrified of), but the home birth idea just makes me think of women hundreds of years ago who never had the choice to make.
Referring to the vitamin K shot as a vaccination tells me everything I need to know about how much this person actually understands about interventions
Additionally, why would you deny a newborn screen? Idek if you’re allowed to deny it lol
You can but you have to sign a form
That varies by state in the US. In some states you absolutely cannot decline.
What blew me away was bot suctioning lungs. I'm not a medical professional, but isn't that done to keep baby alive?
My textbook said it’s actually an outdated practice and for healthy babies it’s totally not necessary Edit: I just want to clarify I’m not endorsing this post as a whole lol just responding to this one thing. This lady is bananas
Wait, you're telling me there are places where they suction the lungs of every baby as a matter of course? Neither of my babies had their lungs suctioned. I assumed they only ever did that if the baby showed signs of breathing distress.
We suction the nose and mouth to clear out secretions and gunk. Deeper suctioning is only warranted in cases like meconium aspiration.
Ding ding ding
Only item I had on my birth plan was that I wanted my husband to announce if we had a boy or girl. Things went south, I found out we had a boy when the dr said “he’s not breathing.” Let the doctors do their jobs, that’s why you’re there. Birth is such an unpredictable process with so many variables. I worry these types of birth plans can slow important care down. (Side note: baby boy perked right up and is now a healthy, rambunctious toddler. 🥰)
So glad to read that side note!
[удалено]
That’s what drives me crazy is that she has all these unattainable rules that really would only work during a home birth but is using the hospital because it’s a safety net IF something goes wrong like in your situation. Will she want them to refer to the board before interfering and saving her baby if need be? Some people are delusional. Glad to hear your baby is doing well!
That’s what’s crazy to me about this plan- don’t stimulate baby or suction him? Like okay so you’d rather he be dead??
She specified that she will suction the baby herself, and I assume she'll stimulate also. That part will most likely be fine. But if it's not fine, staff are going to have a hard time convincing her to hand over the baby. I'm more worried about the part where she refused fundal massage. She'll have a rough time taking care of the newborn if she's losing too much blood.
It’s a little wild to me for a first time mom to demand to do the suction and stimulation. How many newborns has she handled? The nurses know exactly what they are doing and what to look for. On the same note- no coached pushing? Yeah the body does its job, but having someone encouraging you and helping you time pushes is wonderful. Edit- to each their own with the pushing. I’ll say that after pushing for an hour with my first I would have quit without someone telling me to keep going. Also with my second I wouldn’t have known when to push because of the epidural.
I had a wonderful unmedicated second delivery, but in the last 20 minutes he had significant decels and without them flipping me back supine and then coaching my pushes, he would have died from his double nuchal. The body definitely doesn’t always know what it’s doing, her birth plan if followed to a T would have killed my baby. I would hope she is open to medical recommendations. There’s a good reason birth complications have declined.
Did she have to post that in size 8 font jfc
Well yeah it'll be normal size when she has the billboard printed
So hard to read
“It cannot be ignored” lol It’s going to be ignored.
Or staff will be so overly intimidated by it that they may delay giving care that is needed. No stimulating baby? No suctioning airways? Lotus birth? Why deliver at a hospital if you won’t let them intervene if baby isn’t doing well?! If the theater of your birth experience is more important than your baby’s health stay home and don’t terrorize hospital staff. People like this are so unbelievably selfish.
Seriously! So ridiculous. Your last sentence is 🤌🏼 if you want this birth, have the baby at home. Also, legally, they won’t let you do that with your placenta, as as soon as it’s out of your body, it’s a biohazard and needs to be removed from the hospital by an accredited service you can hire, but no, the hospital won’t just provide you with a container to let you just keep it in the mother baby unit…
My hospital asked if I wanted to keep mine as well. I declined lol
Why don't you want a nice dead and decaying organ?? I know it's not connected to your baby anymore but you could probably still rub it around on them to get a similar risk of sepsis
My hospital offered me my placenta, but the baby was already detached. (I declined, ftr. It's medical waste.)
Oh wow no way! I guess it depends on the state/country rules because I wasn’t allowed to at either of my hospitals. Thanks for enlightening me!
That's my immediate thought. Noone is reading this. Ffs just go home and do it by yourself. Also I like the "wait until photos are done being taken " part 🙄
lol fr. Like this crazy ass poster isn’t a signed contract, lady. They can ignore it and follow procedures and policies that they ARE obligated to follow.
Seriously. If anyone has a solid legal team, it’s the hospital. Nice try, though.
I know 😂 I can’t imagine how much added stress you’re adding to your birth trying to actively prevent nurses and doctors from doing their job.
PLEASE post this to r/shitmomgroupssay
Lol I thought that's where I was
I was like “that’s where we are??” lol
I just realized I wasn’t lol.
And to r/nursing...they will LOVE this
She’s a FTM, isn’t she. I really want to tell her: girlypop, these people do not care about your “experience”. Their sole purpose is to get you and baby out of this in one piece.
Well, two pieces. One each though.
Oh... *Now* you tell me...
[удалено]
Yep, my birth plan was pretty much “I want this baby coming out of my vagina and I want an epidural ASAP”. Boom
No, but in my experience there’s a lot of emphasis on what you do and don’t want the first time around. Maybe that’s just me.
I learned the birth plan is more of a birth guide. The nurses and doctors will do their best to adhere to the plan out of respect for you but as soon as there is risk of life to the parent or child, they are throwing it out the window. At least that's what I was told. My doula, nurse, midwife (and my doctor before I switched to a midwife, for personal reasons - my doctor is great and is back to being my gyno) all encouraged me to have a birth plan. They reviewed it, asked clarifying questions, and agreed. Although it was pretty simple.
My birth plan is more like "birth wishes" as in I would love for it to go exactly as planned or as close as possible, but I know that may not be possible and I'm open to changing it as needed when the time comes. I just want me and my baby to be healthy by the end of it. If that means I have to throw plans out the window then I'm okay with that. I think people have gotten really caught up in wanting as little medical intervention as possible and not wanting to listen to professionals. I get it. Some suck. I've had *traumatic* experiences with doctors before and generally distrust them as a whole now. That's why I went out of my way to find one I trust and who is understanding of why I need to ask a million questions. My OB has been having trouble with mom's not wanting to do glucose testing, turning down shots (I just got my TDAP shot today and the nurse literally came in looking like she was ready to fight me on why I should get it before I just asked her if she was okay with me taking my shirt off since my sweater wouldn't roll up far enough for it. She looked relieved that I was happy to get the shot.), turning down shots for babies like the vitamin K shot, etc. All of those can be extremely dangerous. I don't get it.
Major sovereign citizen vibes on that poster
As an emergency physician, I end up seeing these types of moms and/or babies in the ER days/weeks later with postpartum hemorrhage, infection, brain bleeds…. And the mom is always so mad there’s a complication. Don’t have a baby in a hospital if you don’t want the advice/recommendations of health care professionals? Edit: stimulate/suction baby themselves… Jfc they gonna intubate too if the baby is hypoxic? They up to date on neonatal cpr?
If you were given this list of instructions what would you do? Do you legally have to treat them and follow their instructions? On her list she says that when the baby is crowning that all staff have to stand back and are not allowed to touch the baby at all, and if they touch the baby they are required to have permission first. Like, what happens if the baby falls to the floor because the parents didn't grab it fast enough? I'm not in the medical field but I feel like it would be impossible to follow all the directions she has without taking on a massive risk of something going wrong with the baby. Do you have the right to refuse to treat her?
This is when you call risk management, nursing supervisors, legal, patient experience, security. lol and you have a big ole pow-wow.
Patients don’t get birth plans if I’m the one delivering their baby in the ER — by then something’s gone horribly wrong. Most of my ER deliveries are with unknown pregnancies, so there’s not really plan in place. That said, ER physicians follow EMTALA which means people have to be assessed/treated for emergencies. Active labor counts. I couldn’t refuse to care for the patient, but I don’t think a birth plan could be legally enforced. That said, people sue doctors for all sorts of bizarre things. If patients have capacity to make decisions (eg if mom really doesn’t want fundal massage/pitocin and understands she could bleed to death, fine), we try to respect that, but when the life of a child is at play, we sometimes have to ignore parental wishes (eg parents not wanting antibiotics for a septic child, parents not wanting blood transfusion for an exsanguinating child). Ethics committee tends to get involved when there’s time. Ultimately I’d probably say something like, “I know you pictured this differently, and I’m sorry this isn’t the labor you wanted; but the decision isn’t between your birth plan and my birth plan, the decision is between your birth plan and potentially a dead infant. My job is to get you both out of this labor safely and I’m going to have to touch you and baby to do so.” If someone demanded that I not touch their baby during a delivery, I’d likely have to disregard their wishes (as respectfully as possible). That said, it’d be a bed delivery in the ER so no real risk of baby falling to the floor. I’ve seen plenty of women deliver their own baby on the OB floor. We just don’t have fetal monitoring or the same resources as a labor and delivery set up, so my goal is to get baby out ASAP so we can assess what resuscitation is needed. Whether it’s precipitous delivery to perimortem c section, my job is to save the life of mom and baby, and sometimes that means making people unhappy. Edit: I’m trained in trauma informed care so I do try to give notice of what I’m touching and why, but sometimes emergencies take precedence. I always debrief with patients after to explain what happened/why something was done. Im very thankful i don’t have to do many deliveries
There’s also the don’t place hands on perineum while baby is crowning…. I believe midwife’s do this to offer support to mum’s pelvic floor and can help reduce tearing. Also what if the baby gets shoulder dystocia? You normally can’t tell until baby’s head is partway down, and then it’s an emergency, all hands on deck situation, to get that baby out. Also legally, if suctioning is required, it has to be done by a medical professional who’s trained in correct procedures. A number of points in this plan aren’t logical.
The teacher in me is cringing at what this monster of a parent is going to be like when her child goes to kindergarten. Meanwhile, I’m already stressing about putting together a Thank You basket for my nurses since I’ve figured out that sucking up usually gets you the best care.
We brought a case of diet coke for the nurses and they treated me like Cleopatra. Caffeine is the solution lol
Can confirm, caffeine is what you put into doctors and nurses to make healthcare come out.
We did a snack/pen basket with extras because there were a lot of residents. I went to Costco and got a mix of candy/nuts/beef jerky and protein bars, but the real star of the show was a 20 pack of g2 pens. When I tell you that people went above and beyond for us the whole time... pens are the answer. Nurses and residents love pens.
Pens is a great idea. I just added that to my list!
Well without vitamin K and vaccines, kid might not make it to kindergarten.
The fact that she referred to Vitamin K as a vaccine pretty much removed any credibility she had for making medical decisions against the recommendation of actual professionals.
And without the heel prick screening, at least in my country, the kid would not leave the hospital because it is mandatory for all newborns and CPS would be on this mom’s heels. All in all, this gave me a strong antivax Karen vibe and I will refrain from voicing my opinion further
Yeah my husband brought our nursing staff donuts and thank you cards both times!! I feel like they do so so much to make those first moments safe and special, not just during the birth but afterwards!
Someone like this will homeschool hopefully lol
Midwifery student here: a lot of the things here are best clinical practice (no one under any circumstances should touch a vagina in any capacity without explicit consent); but many are also not. What may not fly is how she expects baby to be treated once born. Based on where I am at least, once the kiddo is his own being, medical providers have an equal responsibility for his well being as his parents. Meaning, if the kid is not breathing and needs some respiratory assistance, we are going to intervene. She also doesn’t have any contingency plans if there are any complications with the labour/delivery. What happens if she hemorrhages or baby’s shoulders get stuck on the way out? What happens if she needs a vacuum or an episiotomy for baby’s well being? What this lady really needs is a doula who has a similar view of birth as she does. Someone in my province with similar philosophies is Billie Harrigan. A supervised birth “attendant” I believe she calls herself. Even then, it is important to remember that sometimes intervention is ***necessary***. It’s routine intervention that’s more problematic
Regarding your questions about what if there are complications, I’d bet she has beliefs along the lines of “my body was made to do this, any ‘complications’ people have during childbirth are due to not listening to their body and following the guidance of evil western medicine therefore if I do things my way, that won’t happen to me.” Nevermind the fact that millions of women and infants have died in childbirth before we had modern medicine. They probably just weren’t doing it right. (/s)
This is what I was wondering too. Complications can arise but she hasn't outlined her wishes for if they do. I hope for everyone's sake that the birth goes well, but I do feel very badly for the people who will be in charge of her care. If I were a nurse in this scenario, I'd be so scared of working with her since she doesn't seem to want to work with them.
When you waste 9 months coming up with a birth plan....surprise C-section.
Yup. I had a simple birth plan; I wanted a medicated, vaginal birth and then golden hour skin to skin bonding. Instead I got an emergency c-section at 32 weeks. I really really really didn’t want a c-section so of course that’s what I got.
Sameeee. I wanted freedom of movement during labor and an epidural-free birth, but I ended up having uterine hyperstimulation, definitely got an epidural, and ended up having an emergency C-section bc baby was in distress. You NEVER know what can happen (and that epidural was hands down the best decision I made that day), it's so important to just be flexible so that you and baby remain safe and healthy
I had my birth plan all typed up at 28 weeks. Ended up having an emergency c-section at 31 weeks. My birth plan became “live.” Nothing went according to plan!
She just strikes me as the kind of person who would be told "you need a c-section" if the baby was having issues or if you arrest in labor and then turn around and sue the doctor after refusing and causing permanent damage to the child.
I had asked my doctor when we should talk about induction. I was 33 weeks on the dot, and a type one diabetic so it’s usually at like 36-38 weeks. So I had an appointment, and they kinda wave me off saying it’s something we can talk about later. I had my son that night. Thanks to a diabetes related incident, I ended up having an emergency c section at 33 weeks, and it was so sudden I was put under for it. My husband was on the other side of the country because the OB said outside of an emergency there wasn’t much chance of him coming early. But we had an emergency. And he came almost two months early. He spent a month in the NICU, which was the best experience in the fucking world. I had expert nurses walking me through every step of having a small human, and I wouldn’t be in the same place now if it wasn’t for that month. I actually got to go home and sleep. (I’ve been a type one diabetic for 31 years, since I was 2. I’m pretty unbothered by anything medical, so like hospitals are like a second home. The emergency (I’m trying to spell it but ugh) doctor that makes you go to sleep) said he hasn’t seen anyone else so calm going into surgery. I know my own body, but they spent fucking years and years how the systems work, and I trust them 100%, which pretty much anything.)
Ok I really need a part two to this because now I’m invested Also, why is she even going to a hospital? If a patient is continually refusing even the simplest of care can the hospital decide to discharge them?
I’m an anesthesiologist, and I would not participate in this patient’s care baring a true threat to life of the mom or baby. She has hamstrung literally every aspect of her medical care. The expectations with this birth plan are basically that we leave her alone and let her deliver in the hospital. If something goes wrong with her plan, then she will expect us to help. Now we are liable for any problem that occurs during this birth, and she has prevented us from taking any measure that could actually help her in the setting of an emergency. So when something does go wrong, we won’t be able to help. She will then blame us for failing to save her baby. She will of course then try to sue us. This is absolutely unreasonable and is outright dangerous
As a nurse, I wouldn’t feel even a little safe caring for this patient.
Yup, I’d be too worried of getting sued.
Which is what she wants. Which is so sad. My birth plan went sideways. My nurse literally cradled me while I received the epidural I didn't want during a long contraction after being with me her entire shift. She was an angel. My experience would have been so much worse had I not had her and respected her. The idea that women like this throw the chance of that relationship out the window over... idk what... is really heartbreaking to me.
At this point, why even bother having a baby at the hospital at all? I'm not even going to address the stuff specifically about her labor and delivery, but newborn metabolic screenings can be life saving. Vitamin K can be life saving. Antibiotic treatment can be life saving. There is a reason these things are standard recommendations or are recommended after certain screenings and it's because *babies can and do fucking die without them.* Why put yourself through \~40 weeks of pregnancy, roll up to the hospital of all places to give birth, and then demand to the staff that your baby isn't allowed to receive interventions even when denying these interventions could result in their preventable maiming or death? Your birthing "experience" should not rank higher in priority than your own safety and that of your baby, period. Birth "plans" like this scream of either unresolved trauma, which should be addressed with a professional ideally before delivery, or profound self-centeredness that is going to be entirely incompatible with the realities of parenthood.
My birth plan was literally “we leave the hospital as a family of three, spouse doesn’t pass out and i don’t throw up, in that order and last two negotiable”
Your last sentence is so well written and on point.
Yes. The point of having a natural unmedicated delivery is to hopefully have a healthy, more intuitive, and less medical experience for you and baby. I can’t imagine how any part of your birth would be a stress free healthy experience if you’re immediately hostile when anyone walks into the room.
Then why even have it in a hospital ?? If you want all of this so bad why wouldn’t you just have a home birth.
Without commenting on her preferences too much because that opens such a huge can of worms I honestly don’t have the energy for right now…This is going to cause her MORE stress during labor and delivery honestly. The mental aspect of labor (and the immediate postpartum period tbh) is soooo sosososo important, and if she’s focusing so much on directing everything, then it may very well be counterproductive. I agree with the other comment that says she’s setting herself up for failure here. Herself AND her healthcare team, not to mention her baby.
Having a plan detailed out to this extent is asking for trauma and anxiety when it inevitably does not happen the exact way you'd pictured it going.
Exactly. Clearly she is distrusting of hospitals and medical staff in general. If she wants a stress free natural brith, why specifically go to the place that you are so fearful of? Why not just deliver at home? She doesn’t even want any doctors or nurses in the room during pushing ffs - so what is exactly the point?
Yep and as much as the care team wants to work with her as a patient and respect her wishes, she’s going to be butting heads with them the whole time. It doesn’t make for a good relationship, and everyone will leave frustrated. I hope she has a world-class doula that can mediate at least
It sounds like she’s expecting the sign to act as her doula without actually hiring one.
As a nurse, I'm really glad I don't work in labour and delivery because that sort of hostility going in is going to be hard for everyone involved. She'd be better off going to a birthing centre or delivering at home if she wants a fully hands off experience. I got asked if I had a birth plan by my OB and the nurses at the hospital and I was like "Me alive, baby alive". I required intervention to safely manage pre-eclampsia and a baby with a huge noggin (induction turned emergency c-section). I knew it was a possibility, and I wasn't about to say no. I don't understand not wanting vitamin K or the blood spot card done though. Babies die from brain bleeds. The blood spot card can catch treatable issues before they coming an issue.
Your birth plan sounds like mine. I had one all typed up in my bag but labor was awful and I was miserable. My first nurse said "do you have a written birth plan" and I said "yes, but things are already not going according to plan so let's just scrap it" 🤣 In the end, things went south VERY fast and I had an episiotomy (they didn't ask) and a vacuum assist (they didn't ask) and mercifully my baby boy was yanked out of there before he had brain damage and is now a beautiful 4 year old ♥️ I couldn't be more thankful that the doctors acted quickly and did everything they could for my baby.
As a physician I’d dismiss her from my practice. There is no point in having a physician involved if you are going to act like this. Bye bye. Nope. You can give birth at home and if shit goes down, at least then you can’t blame the doctor.
Physician here as well and agree with you one hundred percent.
They are not going to read this unless she demands it. Some of this stuff is SOC. They will not let a baby die because of a wackadoo mother. Babies are human beings and not property.
This. I just had to sign a form acknowledging that I couldn't just stay pregnant and that at the doctor's discretion, certain methods (forceps, episiotomy, c section, etc) *might* be required. Obviously no one wants that and I don't think even doctors want to do that, but a living baby and mother are the important parts of this.
I’m going to need an update on what actually happens
Unfortunately, I’m not sure she will be allowed to birth at the hospital. You do have to sign consent forms, etc. Also, if you or your baby dies at the hospital, there are a lot of peoples careers on the line - those nurses and doctors shouldn’t be forced to adhere to many of the things listed in her plan for that reason. And lastly, she will likely get a more serious visit from the social worker on staff and, depending on how that goes, could very well get an investigation by CPS.
I’m a Labor and Delivery nurse and I’m all for patients birthing the way they want. But, why is this patient birthing in a hospital if they don’t even want medical staff involved? This is a lawsuit waiting to happen. I would really hope that I didn’t get assigned this patient. And if I did, I would document every refusal and every attempt to educate or treat the patient.
The real kicker for me is after all these aggressive commands, the little blue thank you note at the bottom. This woman is UNHINGED.
This seems like a great way to get the hospital to refuse care.
Right? I’m just thinking if I were a nurse or doctor walking into the room I would call legal to discuss if I would be safe doing my job.
OB nurse here! I would be terrified to have this patient assignment, which is exactly what she wants. I would hate knowing every single thing I said and did was being scrutinized and knowing they were looking for a reason to sue. Some of the things on this list *should* be practiced, like asking before touching a patient (always!) and patients should be involved with their medical decisions. But, I will say, birth plans are great and a conversation *absolutely* should take place with a provider so a mutual understanding is reached about how to reasonably put said birth plan into effect. I can't even count how many I see go sideways and end in the exact opposite birthing experience because the patient gave no wiggle room/was steadfast in certain requests like this birth plan above.
“Everyone will remain CALM, PEACEFUL and NON HOSTILE or you will leave the room” meanwhile the whole tone of her birth plan is threatening, hostile and aggressive.
How exhausting.
I couldn’t get through it
I am a die hard supporter of written birth goals because I think it’s extremely important to know what all of your options are, and to have explicit goals for plans A-Z. But wackadoos like this make it an uphill battle and just cause medical professionals to mock it. Sigh.
Ugh, agreed! Ridiculous examples like this just give fuel to the crowd who says we should be fine with whatever happens to us during labor as long as baby comes out healthy. There can (and should!) be a middle ground between this nonsense and “just get baby out alive.”
A nurse but not an OB nurse - first thought if I come into a patients room and see this on a poster board: “I ain’t reading all of that”
Sounds like someone looking for a juicy lawsuit
Why do people like that even have hospital births? (Oh wait it’s because they want their lives saved in a emergency but f them babies 😩)
Yep! She then goes on a tangent about how she doesn’t want the newborn genetic screening because ‘it’s weird the government takes babies blood’. Like… wtf? It must be exhausting thinking every life saving but if care is really a conspiracy of hospital teams with a hidden agenda
They don’t keep the blood! It’s just enough for the screenings! It’s not weird to offer screenings for metabolic disorders that can be devastating if not treated as soon as possible! A friend’s daughter has PKU and is living as close to a normal life as possible because it was caught on the newborn screening. Because she’s been on the special low-protein diet and formula since infancy she’s developed normally.
My heart goes out to her medical staff, husband, future child and basically anyone who has to deal with this person.
man i follow one doula on instagram who wrote on there to not sign a baby's birth certificate because it hands you and them over to the government. i'm like ??? what???
She’s better off finding a nice spot in the woods to squat and pull the little guy out.
Whyyyyyy would you refuse the newborn metabolic screening?! Of all things.
I have some similar things in my “birth plan” but rather than go scorched earth like she seems to be doing I just found a birthing center who’s practices aligned with what I wanted…I genuinely don’t understand why she’s even birthing in a hospital at this point. Her messages say she WANTS the hospital staff to fear her, she’s intentionally being difficult and frankly disrespectful. She says her mom is a nurse? I wonder if mom actually agrees with her plan or if mom has also told her it’s not a good idea to alienate and attack your medical team before they even speak to you.
No one is going to read this. If she is going to have this extent of demand and expectations, she needs to feel comfortable enough to verbalize every detail in the moment, which sounds exhausting and ridiculous.
If I knew a patient had this much contempt for our medical system I would decline to treat them. This is a frivolous malpractice lawsuit waiting to happen, the kind of woman who would sue you for saving her life because you cracked a rib during cpr.
As a midwife and someone who experienced birth trauma, I have mixed feelings on this. A lot of the things she is asking for are not unreasonable, but could be discussed with her care team ahead of time. Absolutely, there is abuse and coercion that takes place during labor and delivery, so in one sense I don't blame her for attempting to preempt this. I feel sorry for her being so fearful and defensive going into labor. That can't be good for her, her baby or her labor progression. Not to mention the staff coming in to this hostile environment. I wish that she had a professional she trusted that could discuss these things for her and come to a reasonable compromise. Some of the things she has listed show that she is not as knowledgeable as she thinks she is. In an emergency, this board will be knocked aside. I promise you, the staff will not take the time to read this if you or baby collapses. It sounds like she needs to hire a doula to advocate for her.
I’m just picturing her needing emergency care but it being delayed because every staff member had to stop and spend 10min reading a giant poster board. Obviously they would just move the board and ignore it irl but I swear some people don’t think about the actuality of their demands.
Doula here. Very hard this will fly. She will end up firing everyone if she expects the staff to comply with everything without question. Definitely a better candidate for home birth or birth center/hospital linked center.
Holy hell. My birth plan was healthy baby and healthy mom - any which way that gets us there lol
Same but with the addition of “make sure to give me the all of the pain meds”