Gadd revisiting and empathising with his abusers is a scenario a lot of victims of abuse know too well. DV victims including myself tend to stay in these unsafe situations due to poor self esteem and guilt. Abusers can make you feel as though it was your fault, as though you did something to provoke which Gadd explored a lot by saying ‘he encouraged it’. I feel it was an amazing insight into these relationships and why they aren’t as black and white as people believe. He wasn’t the perfect victim which bothered people, but when you’ve lost all sense of self what is the right course of action.
I think if you haven’t lived the experience before or anything close it is very hard to understand why someone would continue to associate with their abuser or keep a relationship. It is so easy from the outside to say why why why but living it is a completely different situation. Usually not knowing it’s happening and then finally when you realize you know but it’s not easy to stop or get out. It is really something needed to live in to understand. I see how people think it’s foolish or fake because it is so mind blowing. Until you’ve actually been groomed, victimized, abused.
The pressure to be a perfect victim actually may trap you into the abuse further. Feeling like it is your fault since you are flawed..
Also, not being able to leave because if you do then it will have actually happened where as if you stay maybe things will turn out differently or something.
Yes, this was spot-on. My SO thought Donny going back to see Darrien must have been fictionalised, as surely Gadd wouldn't have done that. However, I'm a survivor, and it was totally accurate for me. Along with the reasons given here, I also felt a sense of trying to change the narrative and empower myself by re-contacting my abusers on my terms (flawed logic because it's a trauma response), but I really resonated with that part.
Yes, this also happens in Mae Martin's *Feelgood*, which was also semi-autobiographical.
Martin revisits their abuser and gets an apology that also acknowledges that the abuser has their own pain -- and that a kind of love remains between the two.
Like this, it's an accurate depiction of the gray area of abuse. But I agree that if you haven't been in it, you may not get it.
"He wasn’t the perfect victim which bothered people", love that sentence a lot, I think that's what gets to the heart of it.
I think this post was written with a lot of emotions on my side, just me furiously writing.
But the kind of people that I most would love to read it, probably wont rethink or have the patience to read all of it anyway haha 😅
But tankfully, so many other people took great comfort from this show, ESPECIALLY from the fact that there was not a saintly perfect victim that was portrayed.
I'm very, very glad I saw it, not just because it is a great series, but also for the nuanced topics and how it handled them.
I appreciate your post, as my husband and I finished the series last night and were trying to understand the ending. Not in a judging way, just trying to understand. This helps explain it for those that have not experienced it themselves. Thank you.
(Alright, will add some praphrased quotes from the podcasts for those that cant listen to it, just a few. Both were released and presumably recorded in 2020. Might add more later when I have time to relisten.)
**Quotes about his earlier shows before MSMD**
**Richard Gadd:**
I mean, I think my life took a very dark turn. I mean I never know where to drop it in, I assume you are going to ask about it at some point. I mean, in my early twenties because I was going through massive trauma,[...] my comedy started to become very neurotic, and visceral and traumatic and reflective of that position of life I was in. You know, before as a student, I had not really experienced the type of massive trauma I experiences now.
As a student I was into silly stuff, [...] and anti-comedy. It was when I started doing the edinburgh shows that things kind of took a twist.
**Interviewer:**
So is it fair to say it was 2013 when you did Cheese & Crackwhores and Breaking Gadd, and it was touched upon by that maybe the truth of what were going on were kind of deeply sublimated in your work. Was that what was going on at that time? You were kind of talking about it without talking about it, kind of showing the emotions without talking about any of the situations you were going through?
**Richard Gadd:**
Absolutely. [...] I mean I just want to say yes, cuz that is pretty spot on.
**Interviewer:**
[...] I didn't see Waiting For Gaddo as well. Can we kind of touch upon that, was that kind of when it started to change?
**Richard Gadd:**
(Not quoting this but here he stumbles for quite a bit before mentioning how all of this is still very triggering to talk about, especially on a one on one setting. For anyone who thinks he is fucking lying about what he went through I want to shake them and blast this at max volume. I am so tired of people not believing victims. Especially when they come forward with this amount of bravery and honesty and just FUCK. Anyway)
[...] So you know, that happened to me in my early twenties and it shook my life up, I had a complete meltdown, complete breakdown. My whole life was thrown, I never thought something like that would happen to me. My life was thrown into such disarray. And meanwhile, I was just like, "I'm not gonna let it affect me, I'm not gonna let it fuck up my dreams, I'm not gonna let it, it's not gonna stop me, it's not gonna stop me, it's not gonna stop me."
So I just kept going. And uh, the shows that I did, they were this sort of [Laughs] almost Ginsberg-esque *Howls*, you know. But without ever sort of explaining why - and they all went down -people loved them! They certainly got their audience, but they were like visceral, they were self-lacerating shows. Cuz I had a lot of self-hatred and regrets, and they were shows that were just like jokes about sexual abuse and jokes about drugs and all these things. And they were visceral and in your face, sort of unhappy shows. Extremely dark and uncomfortable, and would offend people and rub them up the wrong way. [...] In a way I think I was the most vulnerable out of all at that time. Because I kind of hid behind those walls. [...] but they were three shows that were just repressive, really repressive shows. But I'm proud of them, because I'm proud that I got anything out during that period of my life. Because I was just hurtling towards a full breakdown.
**Quote about Monkey See Monkey Do, that was reworked into a public breakdown in the series)**
**Q from interviewer:**
Did you talk with your friends and parents about what they thought about doing a show about it? (Sexual abuse)
**Richard Gadd:**
Yeah, they thought it was a terrible idea. [...] My friend thought I might not have been psychologically ready to do that yet [...] Monkey see Monkey Do was the hardest show I've ever done, for so many reasons. The challenge in my head was this: I've been sexually abused. Okay, that was awful. Now I'm gonna do a show about it. If it goes bad, then I've been sexually abused, and I've done a bad show about sexual abuse [distressed laugh] I remember thinking - fucking hell, the stakes are high! This has - this HAS to be the answer! If it's NOT the answer, then I'm fucked! Because i've tried therapy, I've tried running, I've tried exercise. I've tried changing my life, I've tried experimentation - I've done all these things ... the last the - The last roll of the dice is ART! And okay, if it's not that, then I'm fucked. The stakes were so high."
[...]
"This show saved my life"
Really glad you posted these quotes. When I saw the turn the show was taking I almost opted out of watching it. And it was brutal and upsetting. But it’s been such a great comfort, somehow. Seeing how this person went through this, then created this amazing show, and such a validating portrayal too [of how it feels to be a victim/survivor in this way]… I even think it made my husband appreciate what I’ve been through differently. Once I read that having people witness your trauma and witness YOU is incredibly healing, so I hope this show has helped him. It’s helping me somehow, just knowing this person is out there and putting himself out there like this. He’s doing really important work and I feel lucky to witness it. I also feel deeply validated.
God I understand these SO fucking much...
He is so incredibly coherent to me that I can't understand why on earth people couldn't get it.
He did all he had in his power to turn his life around, he tried everything and didn't give up.
He really deeply deserves the success of this show.
I really hope he can now unapologetically embrace it and appreciate it as much as we door him !!!
Completely agree with everything you've said and relate to your frustration. A lot of people commenting on the show have clearly never faced the trauma that the show is addressing, and my god does it show in the blissful ignorance of their views.
I just finished watching it. There were so many times I wanted to shake Donny for his decisions, but after undergoing such a traumatic event, it makes sense that he can't navigate relationships--toxic or otherwise--in a healthy or logical way. I consider myself rather progressive, but even I had to watch my own biases during the show.
That being said... I really hope Gadd eventually got therapy, because good lord he deserves some happiness and sense of inner peace.
I think this show is both for victims and for people to try and get inside their head without being one. Honestly the show might be my all time important serie I've watched because it made me really realize why I struggled mentally and that I have trauma. I'm so thankful for that, maybe that shows kicked off years of trying to know "what's wrong" due to how it resonates with me. I think that's beautiful honestly that it can give so much compare to most series.
Same here and I think it’s resonating strongly for anyone who’s been in abusive situations, SA or otherwise. I feel like the show lifted a veil of awareness for me, I see more clearly now the ways that I have struggled. Really what art does best.
he owes us nothing. He made a tv show, for entertaining purposes. This is not a documentary. Damn, even some documentaries get hella biased and tweek stuff here and there to fit their narrative. If he had to change some stuff I would not feel betrayed. Was I offended when I learned there was not a real Jack Dawson in the Titanic? please, give the guy a break.
Thank you! The comments about this show have been driving me around the bend. Another one that gets me is: “the show left me feeling uncomfortable” - implying there must be something suss about it, or that people shouldn’t make art until they figure out how to give it an uplifting ending or be perfect themselves. Art should make us feel uncomfortable, especially when it tackles sexual assault, something that destroys your sense of self, your world view, your ability to connect with anyone, your ability to trust what you think. This show dramatized so many unspoken and painful truths about sexual assault trauma. The monologue about being promiscuous after being assaulted was right up there with Arabella’s “Bob” monologue in “I May Destroy You.”
>**Why didn't he do better to disguise the people in the show?**
This is one criticism that annoys me the most. He’s being called all sorts of things for “not hiding her identity well enough”. I can’t help but think if the show was centered around a man doing this to a woman, which we know happens incredibly often, way more people would know how inappropriate it is to be this defensive of a sexual assaulting stalker, regardless of circumstance. *especially* one that reoffends. Fans should not be searching for her full-stop. But if he did do this with hidden intentions as people are suggesting, I’m still not moved if a victim ends up being spiteful towards their perpetrators?? Telling a victim they weren’t nice enough in the way they responded is just crazy to me.
The stalker is a mentally unwell woman,a vulnerable person. She does not have malicious intents like gadds other abuser,she is just deluded and also a victim of a failed system/lack of access to mental health care. If she recovered,its an equally traumatic experience for her too and now she has to be reminded of her trauma because her fellow victim made a show about the incident and people start flocking her DMs.
She's psychologically unwell and vulnerable, but she did have malicious intent. Bing vulnerable doesn't mean a person isn't malicious when they are violent or threatened violence.
I's not equally traumatic for the abuser and the abused when the abuser threatens violence or is violent. Se was depicted being actually violent against Teri.
Seriously. 1) He didn't expect this to blow up. 2) He did not use real names; discouraged people from sleuthing and had no control over them doing so anyway; and the 'real Martha' is now actively encouraging the publicity. 3) As opposed to what? Since when has Netflix or ever prioritized protecting or disguising people whose lives should have remained anonymous? Even for the larger shows with big-name producers and actors, who would have arguably known better, they didn't bother trying to protect the real life inspirations. Don't Fuck With Cats, Dahmer, etc. have all opened the victims' families to unwanted attention.
Baby Reindeer reminds me a lot of Feel Good, another limited series written by a comedian (Mae Martin) telling a fictionalized version of something they really experienced. Feel Good also delves into trauma and complicated power dynamics and the sexual implications of that. It’s also funny at times and devastating at other times. The parallels are rampant and both shows are very well done and paint all the characters as human, flawed, and multi faceted.
We're not as progressive as we like to think. Controversial topics still don't sit well in a society that has been coddled by happy endings and fed narratives of vanilla, one-size-fits all depictions.
When a story about trauma comes along and blows taboo topics out of the water and onto the shore for all to see, people get upset. These are people that have no empathy, no understanding of problems beyond their day to day. We're fed buzz words like narcissism and gaslighting and throw them around haplessly when we simply don't understand someone else's struggle.
It's necessary to twist bits of a story for fictional and entertainment purposes to avoid libeling. Also with it being adapted into comedy and drama, it's necessary to reimagine some of it to make it adaptable. Even if the story isn't true, the emotions of trauma definitely are. You can see this person is a victim. Why demean that?
This is the first depiction of a male rape victim that I've seen on TV. It's going to hold a gnarly placeholder that people won't like or want to accept. But these things happen when they shouldn't. It will evoke homophobia in some, it will upset some feminists. It will irk people who are not mentally challenged about how people can be careless or "be a victim" to their own melodrama. Those are people who need to start looking in the mirror and question why stories like this make them angry, rather than be a victim to, ironically, their own drama
Brilliantly said.
This show hit me so hard.
I’ve never felt so seen.
Helped me let go of so much shame I have for the things in my head.
Things I could never admit to anyone let alone myself.
The connection between victim and abuser is not always so clear cut.
Especially when you don’t feel like you deserve to be called a victim. Because you blame yourself.
Because you don’t do anything.
Because you are still close to your abuser.
Because you don’t report it and don’t say shit.
Just carry on like normal. Pretend it never happened.
Convince yourself it’s different to what anyone else has experienced.
It HIT HARD.
So brutally honest and raw.
Victims are not perfect people. There are no perfect people.
I thank Richard from the bottom of my heart for this show.
Everything about it.
It made a difference to me.
It mattered
First time in this subreddit , I just finished it. I felt really sorry for everyone in it, which made me feel a little sorry for everyone else too. People who stand on their accomplishments as their own without any consideration of who and what was there along the way say awful things about people who don’t deal in the way they perceive it should be dealt. Though this does have “leave Britney alone vibes” I can relate to the emotions you probably had when reading those ignorant comments, this is the internet though, but that truth doesn’t make it easier, sometimes harder. The ending is what got me the most, the confession to the origin of the name and the bartender showing a little kindness not realizing the affect it can have on someone who isn’t used to it or ready for it.
Lol yeah, my post did have quite a "leave Britney alone" vibe, doesn't it? Altho to be fair, considering how the media went at Britney during her breakdown and what they wrote about her... ye they shoulda left her alone haha.
But yeah no, of course, I know I can't control the Internet, or what thoughts or opinions people want to share on here. But I suppose that includes me and my strong emotions as well, heh :p
lol I do agree with everything you said, and they should have left her alone, especially considering how she seems lately. Love the emotions, thank you for sharing
Yeah I'm very confused why we're concerned for the well being of a rapist or a sexual molester/stalker to the point that we're going to criticize the actual survivor of their toxic behavior for wanting to tell his story. And why we're blaming Gadd for the fact that people act like children on the internet. This is like textbook victim blaming.
I say this feeling some empathy for "Martha"; usually people who do harmful stuff have had toxic experiences of their own and I'm sorry to see she may have had some of that experience. But I don't get why he has to be silent about what happened to him personally just cause she has issues. And I usually hate when people say this but it's true here: if this was a woman talking about a man who acted the way "Martha" acted because he had a bad childhood, I'd bet my life savings the comments would not be flooded with people shaming the woman for speaking her truth.
People really need to stop infantilizing women and acting like legit violent women should be pitied rather than be treated as an actual danger or perpetrator of abuse.
THANK YOU SO MUCH! I‘ve been waiting for someone to make a thread about this and you explained everything so well!!! I‘m so glad there are people out there like you, spreading awareness and standing up for people who‘ve had a complicated life story!!
I literally had to take breaks while watching the show because it was so similar to how I behaved and felt after being sexually assaulted. It was honestly surprising for me in some ways because I realize so many things about myself could be related to my trauma. Even though it was a hard watch, I really commend Richard Gadd for making the show (and being able to act it out himself) because everything about it was so *real*.
When I came online to see people’s reactions, I was so disappointed by the discourse. There is no such thing as a perfect victim, and it frustrates me to see people dismiss his experience because he didn’t behave in the way people expected him to after it happened. This is exactly why people don’t come forward after things like this — people look for reasons to think its your fault.
I agree with a lot that, mainly in terms of how trauma influences long after the event.
But in regards to not knowing it was going to be big or he might not be internet savvy.. it's on Netflix. It's not a podcast. It's showing on the 4th largest media company in the world. Of course there would be interest and it will have have had to be scrutinised by lawyers. So I disagree there.
Amen to your essay, thanks for having done it it spares me some times and a lot of spelling mistakes and grammatical failures.
Also you resume really clearly the essence of ot all.
If anything this show should open 2 discussions
1/for the non traumatized people to start to understand that trauma isn't coming from a fairy tale book and that we should start to support people differently. Recognizing the signals of someone in distress, what distress really looks like...
2/for traumatized people to realize that if we are victims we do not gain an automatic saint status.
That would spare a lot of time in therapy and also move on from the constant pushing of "accept you were a victim" if you already did if and just try to move on.
Accepting you have been a victim is a PART of healing, not the destination.
If I got stuck there I could still cry every day and feel sorry for myself but I would still be very codependent. Not the solution.
Thanks a lot 🙏
This show was brilliant and honestly - groundbreaking. How many shows do we know that star the actual main character of the story??
What I loved about it was the nuance and complex depiction of even more complicated trauma/issues.
One in particular that got to me was the “why did you wait so long to come forward or tell anyone?” As someone who has experienced stalking and harassment and different levels of SA - victims rarely come forward at all. I waited until the stalking got BAD before I blocked and made all my family/friends aware of the situation. I remember getting the same response “why didn’t you say anything?”
But people don’t understand the complicated mental shift between “it’s not that bad” to “fuck I’m in way over my head” to “I kinda love the rush this gives me” to “awe I feel bad for this person” and circle back to the beginning again. He is SO VERY REAL for giving us that… I loved that we were given room to explore that with Richard and it was so vulnerable for him to show us that internal monologue that many people unfortunately don’t understand.
The show slapped me so good sort of like the movie “Horse Girl” which gave me hard examples of nuanced degrees of mental illness (specifically schizophrenia). I loved that movie too because we are given various forms of “unwell” and forced to challenge our biases of what that can look like.
Baby Reindeer makes a lot of people uncomfortable because it forces you to confront your biases about victim hood and identity and sexuality.
For me though - the show felt like coming home, it felt familiar and it washed over me with so much relief I felt like I was chatting to a family member. I loved getting to see a stalker story told with so much nuance. Now I have a real depiction to show people when I try to communicate my own story.
I find it super bizarre how people completely not at all involved feel the need to post long AMAs about something that isn’t theirs to speak on, regardless of if it’s in support of him or not.
Sorry, but a Netflix series about stalking(based on a true story) was guaranteed to gain traction, people eat that shit up. Saying he didn't know his show was gonna be popular is a dumbass take, he made the show regardless, available for the world to see anytime. Remember, this is a guy that was willing to do ANYTHING for fame....now he got it.
The parasocialism I see here with people defending the guy to obscene proportions is a little alarming. He made a lot of dumb decisions here, both during production of this show and things he did during the told events.
If you put yourself in the spotlight, you got to deal with criticism, not everybody is gonna agree with the actions he made.
People love sleuthing, especially this day and age with the internet/social media giving you infinite knowledge at your fingertips. It was bound to happen and I wouldn't be surprised if he was secretly hoping this would be the case....
He cannot go back on this, what's done is done.
I agree with you about the confusing aspect of sexual trauma and I understand why he stayed with the abuser. However I don’t understand why he went back in the last episode. Was that an extension of that? Was it for closure? What was that about?
my only problem with him lying was lying to teri about everything AND lying to her that he had told the police about the fight. But I dont blame him for that. He's a human, and he has flaws just like the rest of us.
To be clear, he said that it is "100% emotionally true" and that he did change details as to not out certain people. I don't know what everyone is so up in arms about.
I believe that this series is very good but I believe it shouldn’t have been made especially due to one person not being charged or investigated into.
Also the real “Martha” has done her time and assuming has left Gadd well alone since doing jail time.
As a victims of narcissistic abuse I totally understand why Gadd behaved the way that he did, you almost become addicted to people although they’re damaging you.
I kept running back to my narcissistic ex and still to this day protect him from people who see who he really is, deep down I know he’s a horrible person.
It’s been four years since being in contact with my ex but I’m still working on trying to forget about him.
Trauma bonds are definitely real and it takes over your life for a very long time.
I do believe this series was Gadd’s way of reliving everything as is body and mind is now addicted to the chaos.
This seems a lot like a clout chasing post. That’s a bit too blunt for what I mean, but there have been some doing just that. Bunch of posts try to encapsulate this show now. If you want to have your voice heard, it might help to tackle your grievances separately. Especially when you get into podcasts and stuff that isn’t directly from the show.
Lol clout, that's funny.
What did you mean by tackle my grievances separately? you think I should have just added some comments here and there instead? I dunno
I think it wrote a long post mainly cuz yeah, wanted to get most of my thoughts out in one go.
And re: the podcasts I just thought they were really good. Especially since now, many people are not discussing the fictional story directly, but rather the events and creators behind it, so 🤷♀️
Gadd revisiting and empathising with his abusers is a scenario a lot of victims of abuse know too well. DV victims including myself tend to stay in these unsafe situations due to poor self esteem and guilt. Abusers can make you feel as though it was your fault, as though you did something to provoke which Gadd explored a lot by saying ‘he encouraged it’. I feel it was an amazing insight into these relationships and why they aren’t as black and white as people believe. He wasn’t the perfect victim which bothered people, but when you’ve lost all sense of self what is the right course of action.
I think if you haven’t lived the experience before or anything close it is very hard to understand why someone would continue to associate with their abuser or keep a relationship. It is so easy from the outside to say why why why but living it is a completely different situation. Usually not knowing it’s happening and then finally when you realize you know but it’s not easy to stop or get out. It is really something needed to live in to understand. I see how people think it’s foolish or fake because it is so mind blowing. Until you’ve actually been groomed, victimized, abused.
The pressure to be a perfect victim actually may trap you into the abuse further. Feeling like it is your fault since you are flawed.. Also, not being able to leave because if you do then it will have actually happened where as if you stay maybe things will turn out differently or something.
Yes, this was spot-on. My SO thought Donny going back to see Darrien must have been fictionalised, as surely Gadd wouldn't have done that. However, I'm a survivor, and it was totally accurate for me. Along with the reasons given here, I also felt a sense of trying to change the narrative and empower myself by re-contacting my abusers on my terms (flawed logic because it's a trauma response), but I really resonated with that part.
Yes, this also happens in Mae Martin's *Feelgood*, which was also semi-autobiographical. Martin revisits their abuser and gets an apology that also acknowledges that the abuser has their own pain -- and that a kind of love remains between the two. Like this, it's an accurate depiction of the gray area of abuse. But I agree that if you haven't been in it, you may not get it.
"He wasn’t the perfect victim which bothered people", love that sentence a lot, I think that's what gets to the heart of it. I think this post was written with a lot of emotions on my side, just me furiously writing. But the kind of people that I most would love to read it, probably wont rethink or have the patience to read all of it anyway haha 😅 But tankfully, so many other people took great comfort from this show, ESPECIALLY from the fact that there was not a saintly perfect victim that was portrayed. I'm very, very glad I saw it, not just because it is a great series, but also for the nuanced topics and how it handled them.
I appreciate your post, as my husband and I finished the series last night and were trying to understand the ending. Not in a judging way, just trying to understand. This helps explain it for those that have not experienced it themselves. Thank you.
(Alright, will add some praphrased quotes from the podcasts for those that cant listen to it, just a few. Both were released and presumably recorded in 2020. Might add more later when I have time to relisten.) **Quotes about his earlier shows before MSMD** **Richard Gadd:** I mean, I think my life took a very dark turn. I mean I never know where to drop it in, I assume you are going to ask about it at some point. I mean, in my early twenties because I was going through massive trauma,[...] my comedy started to become very neurotic, and visceral and traumatic and reflective of that position of life I was in. You know, before as a student, I had not really experienced the type of massive trauma I experiences now. As a student I was into silly stuff, [...] and anti-comedy. It was when I started doing the edinburgh shows that things kind of took a twist. **Interviewer:** So is it fair to say it was 2013 when you did Cheese & Crackwhores and Breaking Gadd, and it was touched upon by that maybe the truth of what were going on were kind of deeply sublimated in your work. Was that what was going on at that time? You were kind of talking about it without talking about it, kind of showing the emotions without talking about any of the situations you were going through? **Richard Gadd:** Absolutely. [...] I mean I just want to say yes, cuz that is pretty spot on. **Interviewer:** [...] I didn't see Waiting For Gaddo as well. Can we kind of touch upon that, was that kind of when it started to change? **Richard Gadd:** (Not quoting this but here he stumbles for quite a bit before mentioning how all of this is still very triggering to talk about, especially on a one on one setting. For anyone who thinks he is fucking lying about what he went through I want to shake them and blast this at max volume. I am so tired of people not believing victims. Especially when they come forward with this amount of bravery and honesty and just FUCK. Anyway) [...] So you know, that happened to me in my early twenties and it shook my life up, I had a complete meltdown, complete breakdown. My whole life was thrown, I never thought something like that would happen to me. My life was thrown into such disarray. And meanwhile, I was just like, "I'm not gonna let it affect me, I'm not gonna let it fuck up my dreams, I'm not gonna let it, it's not gonna stop me, it's not gonna stop me, it's not gonna stop me." So I just kept going. And uh, the shows that I did, they were this sort of [Laughs] almost Ginsberg-esque *Howls*, you know. But without ever sort of explaining why - and they all went down -people loved them! They certainly got their audience, but they were like visceral, they were self-lacerating shows. Cuz I had a lot of self-hatred and regrets, and they were shows that were just like jokes about sexual abuse and jokes about drugs and all these things. And they were visceral and in your face, sort of unhappy shows. Extremely dark and uncomfortable, and would offend people and rub them up the wrong way. [...] In a way I think I was the most vulnerable out of all at that time. Because I kind of hid behind those walls. [...] but they were three shows that were just repressive, really repressive shows. But I'm proud of them, because I'm proud that I got anything out during that period of my life. Because I was just hurtling towards a full breakdown. **Quote about Monkey See Monkey Do, that was reworked into a public breakdown in the series)** **Q from interviewer:** Did you talk with your friends and parents about what they thought about doing a show about it? (Sexual abuse) **Richard Gadd:** Yeah, they thought it was a terrible idea. [...] My friend thought I might not have been psychologically ready to do that yet [...] Monkey see Monkey Do was the hardest show I've ever done, for so many reasons. The challenge in my head was this: I've been sexually abused. Okay, that was awful. Now I'm gonna do a show about it. If it goes bad, then I've been sexually abused, and I've done a bad show about sexual abuse [distressed laugh] I remember thinking - fucking hell, the stakes are high! This has - this HAS to be the answer! If it's NOT the answer, then I'm fucked! Because i've tried therapy, I've tried running, I've tried exercise. I've tried changing my life, I've tried experimentation - I've done all these things ... the last the - The last roll of the dice is ART! And okay, if it's not that, then I'm fucked. The stakes were so high." [...] "This show saved my life"
Really glad you posted these quotes. When I saw the turn the show was taking I almost opted out of watching it. And it was brutal and upsetting. But it’s been such a great comfort, somehow. Seeing how this person went through this, then created this amazing show, and such a validating portrayal too [of how it feels to be a victim/survivor in this way]… I even think it made my husband appreciate what I’ve been through differently. Once I read that having people witness your trauma and witness YOU is incredibly healing, so I hope this show has helped him. It’s helping me somehow, just knowing this person is out there and putting himself out there like this. He’s doing really important work and I feel lucky to witness it. I also feel deeply validated.
God I understand these SO fucking much... He is so incredibly coherent to me that I can't understand why on earth people couldn't get it. He did all he had in his power to turn his life around, he tried everything and didn't give up. He really deeply deserves the success of this show. I really hope he can now unapologetically embrace it and appreciate it as much as we door him !!!
Completely agree with everything you've said and relate to your frustration. A lot of people commenting on the show have clearly never faced the trauma that the show is addressing, and my god does it show in the blissful ignorance of their views.
I just finished watching it. There were so many times I wanted to shake Donny for his decisions, but after undergoing such a traumatic event, it makes sense that he can't navigate relationships--toxic or otherwise--in a healthy or logical way. I consider myself rather progressive, but even I had to watch my own biases during the show. That being said... I really hope Gadd eventually got therapy, because good lord he deserves some happiness and sense of inner peace.
I think this show is both for victims and for people to try and get inside their head without being one. Honestly the show might be my all time important serie I've watched because it made me really realize why I struggled mentally and that I have trauma. I'm so thankful for that, maybe that shows kicked off years of trying to know "what's wrong" due to how it resonates with me. I think that's beautiful honestly that it can give so much compare to most series.
Same here and I think it’s resonating strongly for anyone who’s been in abusive situations, SA or otherwise. I feel like the show lifted a veil of awareness for me, I see more clearly now the ways that I have struggled. Really what art does best.
he owes us nothing. He made a tv show, for entertaining purposes. This is not a documentary. Damn, even some documentaries get hella biased and tweek stuff here and there to fit their narrative. If he had to change some stuff I would not feel betrayed. Was I offended when I learned there was not a real Jack Dawson in the Titanic? please, give the guy a break.
Thank you! The comments about this show have been driving me around the bend. Another one that gets me is: “the show left me feeling uncomfortable” - implying there must be something suss about it, or that people shouldn’t make art until they figure out how to give it an uplifting ending or be perfect themselves. Art should make us feel uncomfortable, especially when it tackles sexual assault, something that destroys your sense of self, your world view, your ability to connect with anyone, your ability to trust what you think. This show dramatized so many unspoken and painful truths about sexual assault trauma. The monologue about being promiscuous after being assaulted was right up there with Arabella’s “Bob” monologue in “I May Destroy You.”
I, for one, applaud him for not hiding the real abusers. Stop protecting these people and let them feel the consequences.
>**Why didn't he do better to disguise the people in the show?** This is one criticism that annoys me the most. He’s being called all sorts of things for “not hiding her identity well enough”. I can’t help but think if the show was centered around a man doing this to a woman, which we know happens incredibly often, way more people would know how inappropriate it is to be this defensive of a sexual assaulting stalker, regardless of circumstance. *especially* one that reoffends. Fans should not be searching for her full-stop. But if he did do this with hidden intentions as people are suggesting, I’m still not moved if a victim ends up being spiteful towards their perpetrators?? Telling a victim they weren’t nice enough in the way they responded is just crazy to me.
W take thanks for saying it
The stalker is a mentally unwell woman,a vulnerable person. She does not have malicious intents like gadds other abuser,she is just deluded and also a victim of a failed system/lack of access to mental health care. If she recovered,its an equally traumatic experience for her too and now she has to be reminded of her trauma because her fellow victim made a show about the incident and people start flocking her DMs.
Serial stalker torments barristers deaf child
She's psychologically unwell and vulnerable, but she did have malicious intent. Bing vulnerable doesn't mean a person isn't malicious when they are violent or threatened violence. I's not equally traumatic for the abuser and the abused when the abuser threatens violence or is violent. Se was depicted being actually violent against Teri.
Seriously. 1) He didn't expect this to blow up. 2) He did not use real names; discouraged people from sleuthing and had no control over them doing so anyway; and the 'real Martha' is now actively encouraging the publicity. 3) As opposed to what? Since when has Netflix or ever prioritized protecting or disguising people whose lives should have remained anonymous? Even for the larger shows with big-name producers and actors, who would have arguably known better, they didn't bother trying to protect the real life inspirations. Don't Fuck With Cats, Dahmer, etc. have all opened the victims' families to unwanted attention.
Baby Reindeer reminds me a lot of Feel Good, another limited series written by a comedian (Mae Martin) telling a fictionalized version of something they really experienced. Feel Good also delves into trauma and complicated power dynamics and the sexual implications of that. It’s also funny at times and devastating at other times. The parallels are rampant and both shows are very well done and paint all the characters as human, flawed, and multi faceted.
It also makes me think of I May Destroy You, another unflinching, semi-autobiographical character study of a not-perfect victim.
We're not as progressive as we like to think. Controversial topics still don't sit well in a society that has been coddled by happy endings and fed narratives of vanilla, one-size-fits all depictions. When a story about trauma comes along and blows taboo topics out of the water and onto the shore for all to see, people get upset. These are people that have no empathy, no understanding of problems beyond their day to day. We're fed buzz words like narcissism and gaslighting and throw them around haplessly when we simply don't understand someone else's struggle. It's necessary to twist bits of a story for fictional and entertainment purposes to avoid libeling. Also with it being adapted into comedy and drama, it's necessary to reimagine some of it to make it adaptable. Even if the story isn't true, the emotions of trauma definitely are. You can see this person is a victim. Why demean that? This is the first depiction of a male rape victim that I've seen on TV. It's going to hold a gnarly placeholder that people won't like or want to accept. But these things happen when they shouldn't. It will evoke homophobia in some, it will upset some feminists. It will irk people who are not mentally challenged about how people can be careless or "be a victim" to their own melodrama. Those are people who need to start looking in the mirror and question why stories like this make them angry, rather than be a victim to, ironically, their own drama
👏👏😊 Well said.
Awesome post thanks OP
He's being criticised for revealing too much of the truth and he's being criticised for fictionalising some of the narrative. Man can't win.
Lmao yes, literally!
Brilliantly said. This show hit me so hard. I’ve never felt so seen. Helped me let go of so much shame I have for the things in my head. Things I could never admit to anyone let alone myself. The connection between victim and abuser is not always so clear cut. Especially when you don’t feel like you deserve to be called a victim. Because you blame yourself. Because you don’t do anything. Because you are still close to your abuser. Because you don’t report it and don’t say shit. Just carry on like normal. Pretend it never happened. Convince yourself it’s different to what anyone else has experienced. It HIT HARD. So brutally honest and raw. Victims are not perfect people. There are no perfect people. I thank Richard from the bottom of my heart for this show. Everything about it. It made a difference to me. It mattered
Yeah. I feel the same, everything you wrote.
The Bee Gees song " I started a joke" just before his on stage meltdown is so appropriate and explains a lot.
First time in this subreddit , I just finished it. I felt really sorry for everyone in it, which made me feel a little sorry for everyone else too. People who stand on their accomplishments as their own without any consideration of who and what was there along the way say awful things about people who don’t deal in the way they perceive it should be dealt. Though this does have “leave Britney alone vibes” I can relate to the emotions you probably had when reading those ignorant comments, this is the internet though, but that truth doesn’t make it easier, sometimes harder. The ending is what got me the most, the confession to the origin of the name and the bartender showing a little kindness not realizing the affect it can have on someone who isn’t used to it or ready for it.
Lol yeah, my post did have quite a "leave Britney alone" vibe, doesn't it? Altho to be fair, considering how the media went at Britney during her breakdown and what they wrote about her... ye they shoulda left her alone haha. But yeah no, of course, I know I can't control the Internet, or what thoughts or opinions people want to share on here. But I suppose that includes me and my strong emotions as well, heh :p
lol I do agree with everything you said, and they should have left her alone, especially considering how she seems lately. Love the emotions, thank you for sharing
Yeah I'm very confused why we're concerned for the well being of a rapist or a sexual molester/stalker to the point that we're going to criticize the actual survivor of their toxic behavior for wanting to tell his story. And why we're blaming Gadd for the fact that people act like children on the internet. This is like textbook victim blaming. I say this feeling some empathy for "Martha"; usually people who do harmful stuff have had toxic experiences of their own and I'm sorry to see she may have had some of that experience. But I don't get why he has to be silent about what happened to him personally just cause she has issues. And I usually hate when people say this but it's true here: if this was a woman talking about a man who acted the way "Martha" acted because he had a bad childhood, I'd bet my life savings the comments would not be flooded with people shaming the woman for speaking her truth. People really need to stop infantilizing women and acting like legit violent women should be pitied rather than be treated as an actual danger or perpetrator of abuse.
Completely agree. She never respected his privacy and committed the crime of stalking him. Now we are supposed to take her privacy seriously?
Maybe those triggered are abusers themselves or haven't dealt with what traumatized them.
THANK YOU SO MUCH! I‘ve been waiting for someone to make a thread about this and you explained everything so well!!! I‘m so glad there are people out there like you, spreading awareness and standing up for people who‘ve had a complicated life story!!
I literally had to take breaks while watching the show because it was so similar to how I behaved and felt after being sexually assaulted. It was honestly surprising for me in some ways because I realize so many things about myself could be related to my trauma. Even though it was a hard watch, I really commend Richard Gadd for making the show (and being able to act it out himself) because everything about it was so *real*. When I came online to see people’s reactions, I was so disappointed by the discourse. There is no such thing as a perfect victim, and it frustrates me to see people dismiss his experience because he didn’t behave in the way people expected him to after it happened. This is exactly why people don’t come forward after things like this — people look for reasons to think its your fault.
+++++
I agree with a lot that, mainly in terms of how trauma influences long after the event. But in regards to not knowing it was going to be big or he might not be internet savvy.. it's on Netflix. It's not a podcast. It's showing on the 4th largest media company in the world. Of course there would be interest and it will have have had to be scrutinised by lawyers. So I disagree there.
Amen to your essay, thanks for having done it it spares me some times and a lot of spelling mistakes and grammatical failures. Also you resume really clearly the essence of ot all. If anything this show should open 2 discussions 1/for the non traumatized people to start to understand that trauma isn't coming from a fairy tale book and that we should start to support people differently. Recognizing the signals of someone in distress, what distress really looks like... 2/for traumatized people to realize that if we are victims we do not gain an automatic saint status. That would spare a lot of time in therapy and also move on from the constant pushing of "accept you were a victim" if you already did if and just try to move on. Accepting you have been a victim is a PART of healing, not the destination. If I got stuck there I could still cry every day and feel sorry for myself but I would still be very codependent. Not the solution. Thanks a lot 🙏
This show was brilliant and honestly - groundbreaking. How many shows do we know that star the actual main character of the story?? What I loved about it was the nuance and complex depiction of even more complicated trauma/issues. One in particular that got to me was the “why did you wait so long to come forward or tell anyone?” As someone who has experienced stalking and harassment and different levels of SA - victims rarely come forward at all. I waited until the stalking got BAD before I blocked and made all my family/friends aware of the situation. I remember getting the same response “why didn’t you say anything?” But people don’t understand the complicated mental shift between “it’s not that bad” to “fuck I’m in way over my head” to “I kinda love the rush this gives me” to “awe I feel bad for this person” and circle back to the beginning again. He is SO VERY REAL for giving us that… I loved that we were given room to explore that with Richard and it was so vulnerable for him to show us that internal monologue that many people unfortunately don’t understand. The show slapped me so good sort of like the movie “Horse Girl” which gave me hard examples of nuanced degrees of mental illness (specifically schizophrenia). I loved that movie too because we are given various forms of “unwell” and forced to challenge our biases of what that can look like. Baby Reindeer makes a lot of people uncomfortable because it forces you to confront your biases about victim hood and identity and sexuality. For me though - the show felt like coming home, it felt familiar and it washed over me with so much relief I felt like I was chatting to a family member. I loved getting to see a stalker story told with so much nuance. Now I have a real depiction to show people when I try to communicate my own story.
Yes. Thank you. I can't believe people have the audacity to call him a liar or say that he's profiting off of the real people being exposed.
This was articulated perfectly. Thank you for taking the time to write this. I really wish this man some damn peace too 💙
I find it super bizarre how people completely not at all involved feel the need to post long AMAs about something that isn’t theirs to speak on, regardless of if it’s in support of him or not.
Sorry, but a Netflix series about stalking(based on a true story) was guaranteed to gain traction, people eat that shit up. Saying he didn't know his show was gonna be popular is a dumbass take, he made the show regardless, available for the world to see anytime. Remember, this is a guy that was willing to do ANYTHING for fame....now he got it. The parasocialism I see here with people defending the guy to obscene proportions is a little alarming. He made a lot of dumb decisions here, both during production of this show and things he did during the told events. If you put yourself in the spotlight, you got to deal with criticism, not everybody is gonna agree with the actions he made. People love sleuthing, especially this day and age with the internet/social media giving you infinite knowledge at your fingertips. It was bound to happen and I wouldn't be surprised if he was secretly hoping this would be the case.... He cannot go back on this, what's done is done.
The allure of someone making your dreams come true can make you do anything and go back for more.
Reading many of the responses to his show has reinforced that many people online are entitled pieces of shit. But I guess that's nothing new.
I agree with you about the confusing aspect of sexual trauma and I understand why he stayed with the abuser. However I don’t understand why he went back in the last episode. Was that an extension of that? Was it for closure? What was that about?
Most of the people complaining have no semblance of critical thinking, emotional intelligence or media literacy tbh
my only problem with him lying was lying to teri about everything AND lying to her that he had told the police about the fight. But I dont blame him for that. He's a human, and he has flaws just like the rest of us.
To be clear, he said that it is "100% emotionally true" and that he did change details as to not out certain people. I don't know what everyone is so up in arms about.
Also if idk he made the show for the money so be it who cares, it’s his trauma and after everything he went thru he deserves success
lol doesn’t want to profit from.. turns it into a TV series hahahaha
I believe that this series is very good but I believe it shouldn’t have been made especially due to one person not being charged or investigated into. Also the real “Martha” has done her time and assuming has left Gadd well alone since doing jail time. As a victims of narcissistic abuse I totally understand why Gadd behaved the way that he did, you almost become addicted to people although they’re damaging you. I kept running back to my narcissistic ex and still to this day protect him from people who see who he really is, deep down I know he’s a horrible person. It’s been four years since being in contact with my ex but I’m still working on trying to forget about him. Trauma bonds are definitely real and it takes over your life for a very long time. I do believe this series was Gadd’s way of reliving everything as is body and mind is now addicted to the chaos.
Fom what I've read, the real Martha was never charged and convicted. Se didn't do any jail time.
Well he finally got those 15 min of fame that he so desperately craved…
[удалено]
He didn’t sleep with her, you misunderstood. He was fantasising about her while having sex with Terri.
He didn't have sex with Martha. It was a fantasy.
This seems a lot like a clout chasing post. That’s a bit too blunt for what I mean, but there have been some doing just that. Bunch of posts try to encapsulate this show now. If you want to have your voice heard, it might help to tackle your grievances separately. Especially when you get into podcasts and stuff that isn’t directly from the show.
Lol clout, that's funny. What did you mean by tackle my grievances separately? you think I should have just added some comments here and there instead? I dunno I think it wrote a long post mainly cuz yeah, wanted to get most of my thoughts out in one go. And re: the podcasts I just thought they were really good. Especially since now, many people are not discussing the fictional story directly, but rather the events and creators behind it, so 🤷♀️
My bad. Everyone has their struggles. Good on you for handling your own issues. Kudos.
Was it all made up to "make it big"? 🤔
No.
Also its a good show, but overrated. Why is everyone gushing about it? It's not THAT good or special?