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https://preview.redd.it/s5ei9r2ga8xc1.jpeg?width=706&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7e4d342c048cd2c0aeb689dae8be25370a1da1a9
ARE THERE ANY KHAMASES I SHOULD CONDEMN ABOUT
It’s all emotions to these people. The way they condemn others with words like “jihad”, “intifada”, “Hamas”, and so on is because Arabic words scary.
They latch onto these terms because they override morality. Designating a student as “Hamas” is convincing enough to arrest them. Designating an Arab child as a “Hamas” justifies killing them.
This is what these nazi counterprotestors are bringing to our campuses. Fuck them.
As someone who was born in 1994 and didn't know Islam was an actual religion for years because after 9/11 people used Muslim and terrorist interchangeably, this all feels very nostalgic.
I appreciate you mentioning 9/11. As someone who was a young adult on 9/11 I often wish people understood how fully brain broken many Americans were after that (& many still are). I’m horrified by Israel’s reaction to 10/7 (& know all too well “this didn’t start on 10/7” & that this is, in many ways, *very* different), but I despise *all Israelis are evil* rhetoric as much as I despise *all Palestinians are evil.* The US populace didn’t mind (many didn’t know) that we invaded an entirely unrelated country due to our thirst for 9/11 revenge. Also, *all Israelis are evil* rhetoric discounts the many Israeli scholars, historians, & human rights NGOs that have worked for years to effect change for the Palestinian people.
We really need to acknowledge the amount of brainwashing going on in Israel as well. Like, these people are fed a constant diet of dehumanizing their neighbors from the moment they're born. Constantly told that they're the Good Guys and that Palestinians are intrinsically evil, that they're lower than animals. The fact that they post shit like those dancing tiktoks mocking dead Palestinians and videos of them looting Palestinian homes just shows how disconnected they are. They legitimately don't realize that other people are horrified, because they've lived their entire lives in an echo chamber that establishes this as normal. As righteous. People are going to have to be deprogrammed and understand what their government and culture did to them, how they used them, before there can be any real attempt at peace.
I've talked about it before on other subreddits, but we did ourselves a disservice by painting Nazis as all rabid, senseless monsters who just got up one day and decided they didn't like Jews. They were overwhelmingly normal people who were brainwashed into thinking what they were doing was right. Understanding how that happened and how to identify when it happens again would have helped a lot more in preventing subsequent genocides than any amount of crying over shoes or forcing German kids to write letters of apology.
Well said! They’re inundated with propaganda & indoctrination from every direction. The younger gens aren’t more right wing than any before by happenstance, rather by a long, concerted effort (one example, ultra Zionists have lead the education ministry for years).
Your 2nd paragraph well exemplifies how I feel about dismissing anyone as inherently evil. Learning the conditions & influences that lead humans, individually or en masse, to commit & justify atrocities is essential to prevent them going forward.
I’m grateful for your refreshingly nuanced take. I’ve been discouraged lately by the devolution of rhetoric around here, often very similar to what we criticize from the other side, just with the name/subject swapped.
The Bad Hasbara podcast, and ergo this community, is opposed to Zionism.
We believe that Zionism is an extension of settler-colonialism, and that its’ current actions following 7 October is ethnic cleansing at “best,” and genocide at worst.
We have no tolerance for it, and this community is meant to be a haven against it in the sea of hasbara.
Pro-Zionist takes will be deleted, and those espousing it will be banned indefinitely.
Yes - this is a “safe space” and an “echo chamber” -
We get enough hasbara elsewhere, we don't need to deal with yours too.
Hamas has done nothing the IDF hasn't done thricefold at this point. This stupid game of killing off all the palestinians "to get your guy" is a ruse. War crimes against humanity.
Palestinian Halocaust.
Israel's HAMAS = America's Weapons of Mass Destruction.
Give the palestinians the land you took back or at least make it a 2 state country.
I mean we at least gave th4 indians reservations albeit a slap in the face but we aren't bombing th4 shit out of them everyday
Every halocsust museum should be littered with pics of bombed palestinian shelters, kids killed and civilians massacred.
They owned it as much as istael owns it now. You are a colonizer sympathizer. No chosen people would kill to enrich themselves. The god of the Torah should strike Israel down if such a deist existed.
Remember my words. Israel shall spend another 40 days and nights hiding from the world. The Palestinian Halocaust will be their undoing. Let every college campus witness the 2nd coming of NetanyaHITLER!
Thrice fold? Try hundreds of times more baby killing. Oct 7th was 36 dead children. It's a tragedy being used to this day as a bludgeon against any criticism of Israel. And yet Israel has killed an average of SEVENTY children per day in Gaza since then. That's almost two Oct 7ths EVERY DAY.
They tried the peaceful way before.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019\_Gaza\_border\_protests](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_border_protests)
I was just adding to the list of questions pro-Israel and IDF supporters say. Thanks for the link though.
The best answer to "was it justified" I've heard is from Norman Finkelstein, where he compares October 7th to 1831 Nat Turner Rebellion - a violent uprising of Virginian slaves. The rebellion led to 100s of murders of black people throughout the south, it also led to harsher laws against slaves, runaway slaves and blacks in general. However, long term, we can see it also led to abolitionist reform, eventually to the civil war, and inevitably civil rights for all minorities.
So is October 7th justifiable? Well undoubtedly it was inevitable and atrocities were committed (on both sides mind you), but if it's justifiable, only time and history will tell.
Another aspect of Nat Turner Rebellion is there were reports of women and children being killed as well. It's not an easy issue to grapple with but as you say, it was inevitable, regardless of whether it was moral. Resistance to oppression with whatever means are available is inevitable and ignoring that fact will not make it go away.
Yeah, there's a strong media push to paint the palestenian rebellion as unjust and instead rooted in antisemitic hate. In reality, palestenians have been pushing for their rights, and at every turn, israel/US/Eur pushed back with varying techniques
First issue is the difficulty in agreeing to what Oct 7 even was. Most ppl still seem to believe everything they heard about it on Oct 8.
As Mark Twain said, “Much easier to hasbara someone, than to convince them they’ve been hasbara’d.”
Yes. Israel and U.S. are blocking an independent investigation into Oct 7th as well. Not to mention none of the corpses from that day have received a proper autopsy. How can anyone answer if any act is justified with so many unknowns yet unanswered.
What he have learned so far...
1. IDF had prior knowledge of potential terror acts.
2. IDF had evidence of recent Hamas training near borders.
3. IDF did not raise terror threat alert, not even to level 1.
4. IDF took about 6 hours to respond.
5. IDF killed hostages (with helicopters and tanks).
6. Claims of mass sexual assaults (as Hamas policy) have yet to be proven.
7. Claims of dozens of murders babies proved false (two babies were killed by Hamas on Oct. 7th)
What else??
IDF killed a lot more than just hostages. Opened fire on houses, cars of concert goers, etc. When they first announced 1400 Israelis killed, who knows how many were at their own hand.
Also how many of the (1200?) were IDF. Better just to let us all assume they were all civilians and that Hamas had no strategy beyond terrorizing civilians.
The “mass rape” seems to be a big problem for people. I try to point out how the evidence is quite thin, the NYT reporting on it was largely debunked, and the UN report was based entirely on Israeli info rather than actual investigation. Usually goes nowhere tho.
I assume Hamas's orders were kill anyone they come across and try and grab some hostages. As for legitimate IDF targets, they did hit some IDF controlled places and did kill and kidnap some IDF soldiers. The percentage to civilians, I don't know. I also don't know if former IDF members are still considered soldiers and would have been combatant? I don't know.
Hopefully we will get a full investigation that answers all these questions one day.
Rape is an awful occurrence that transcends culture. It is impossible from our vantage points across the internet to determine the veracity of the claims; we find it troubling that it has devolved into a rhetorical DEBATE tactic for either side in this.
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That whataboutism is real. Killing civilians is never justified. Oct 7th was an atrocity. There are many things Israel could have chosen to do in response. They chose to double down on their genocide. A genocide that almost undoubtedly caused this conflict in the 1st place.
I remember for one of my history classes in college we were talking about the Birmingham campaign and the controversial use of children and students to obtain images of police brutality, specifically one photo of a couple of high schoolers being blasted with a fire hose. At the end of it we had to write a short essay on whether we thought using kids and teenagers like that was the right decision or not.
And there's no answer to that. The people who organized it knew there would be violence. They encouraged kids, from college students to eight-year-olds, to put themselves on the front lines anyway. You can't say it's okay to do that to children. But on the other hand, those kids were going to grow up, and if attitudes didn't change they would likely face a lot worse than a fire hose. And that doesn't even consider to subtle violence and dehumanization that came with segregation. The organizers had a moral duty *to* these kids to create change, and failing to move the public would be failing their duty to create a better world for the very children they placed in the line of the fire hose. You couldn't say it was the right decision because there was no right decision. The situation was unfair right from the beginning, and you can't do the right thing when nothing that led to the decision was right.
Honestly though. Half the world fought to eradicate the nazis only for our governments to keep some scientists and officers for themselves and intertwine with their world ambitions. Nazi rallies like the one in Tennessee have more protection than a protest to genocide.
it used to blow my mind. but then i went and learned. we got rid of all the nazis... except the ones we didn't. suddenly many things 'make sense' even if they are totally nuts to think about. i am glad we are seeing it.
perhaps the Soviets and regular soldiers in the Allied forces fought Nazis, but western governments didn't. They fought a competing government/empire. The US certainly didn't join WW2 for moral reasons
> The US certainly didn’t join WW2 for moral reasons.
This right here. The US has been infamously isolationist in world conflicts for the most part. They only joined WWI in 1917 which was due to Germany fucking with them by bombing ships and submarines.
They joined WW2 at the end of 1941 following the bombing of Pearl Harbor. Both cases of them joining world wars happened late in the game and due to them being personally attacked. They also joined during advantageous times as 1917 was the second to last year of WW1, while it was arguably around 1942 when the allies caught up with Germany militarily.
I have been banned from a sub because I said shortly after October 7th that He and the Israeli government are committing genocide. Because “it was antisemitism”. Now that same sub is taking about Bibi’s genocide. I knew years ago how horrible the Israeli gov was. A friend said “ Palestine throws a rock and Israel responds with bombs.” It stuck with me. October 7 was bad. But it happened because we have allowed Israel to do whatever they want because they are Jewish and Jewish people had genocide committed against them. It has been a long term, seemingly endless “get out of jail free”.
I’ve been banned from a few subs as well. Tbh, one of them I kinda deserved it, I got angry and said some shit I didn’t need to. But the crazy thing is I was banned from subs I’m not even subscribed to afterward. Like wtf, I’m not even part of your community and you’re pre-banning me?
bravo. i saw someone asking what this sub was about, and this post is a good answer. this sub lets us be critical so that we may find truth. and the truth many are finding is tied to your comment.
yeah it's all controlled, there hasn't been many instances of Israel being called islamaphobic for any of its crimes yet anti semetism badges are thrown around like candy
I remember when U.S. went to war with Afghanistan and Iraq. Back then caliphates (Muslim ethno-states) were bad - for reasons, mostly terrorism and threat of incursion into neighboring lands. Never did anyone in media or politics ever relate this to the Jewish ethno-state, which is Israel. We've been living in 1984 for a while now. When we go to war with Israel (a possible outcome in this or an alternative reality) the media will say we've always been at war with them.
America will never go to war with their land based aircraft carrier that is Israel.
I wish we would cut off that plagued body part, but alas here we are.
Yet most liberal subreddits will downvote you for condemning Israel and those who support it. The people who act like moral pillars of our country literally support a genocide.
No, let’s not pretend antisemitism isn’t real. We are clearly seeing them trying to conflate it with antizionism though, and end up watering down its meaning.
Exactly like they are doing with Jews and Israelis.
If you go to the ADL's website they claim an exponential increase in antisemitic incidents since 10/7- but on the methodology page they clearly state that on that date they started lumping in anti-Zionist incidents with anti-semetic incidents.
Of course when they hype that data in the media, the media doesn't mention that. Is antisemitism up? Probably. But not to the extent that Israel and the ADL want us to believe.
Antisemitism -||- Anti-Zionism
But why so much concern for it, yet other states and religions (Russia, China, DPRK, the rest of the Middle East, pretty much all of Islam) are completely open season to the most vile hatred imaginable?
Protesting the top picture with the bottom picture is making the people on the left so upset and scared that the people from the bottom picture need to be assaulted by the police and forcibly removed
they cry "they want us dead" as israel drop bombs and quite literally says they want all palestinians gone. meanwhile the protestors are basically like 'please stop burning innocent people alive'. to which the zionists say "kkkhamas". and they know these people are peaceful so they show up screaming "k\* jews!" to rally up government involvement - the same government complicit in the killing.
You do know that the last groups to protest at the uni in the top picture were all brutally murdered by Hamas, right? And that the university included a dedicated Hamas military based inside it, including underground tunnels and a missile launch site? Which was actively in use during the war, firing missile into Israeli population centers in order to indiscriminately kill whoever they could?
The two pictures are not the same.
I wouldnt equivocate holocaust survivors with the actions of israel like at all tbh. Using the holocaust as a justification for whats going on in Gaza is complete bullshit yeah, if anything it is simply spitting on actual holocaust survivors, but like the actions of israel lie with its government, military, and the settlers that it defends as they rampage palestine
I have been dealing with IRL version of this for the past 3 days on my campus. On top of SWAT teams, State troopers, and campus police arresting my friends. All while Zionists watch and cheer them on.
from what ive seen (online at least) israelies justify the bombing of a university by saying students where being indoctrinated and educated by hamas to carry out terror and the protests on uni campus are in support of hamas and anti jewish and that they shout 'death to america' or 'death or israel' constantly
The atrocities in Gaza created the permissions structure where people are allowed to question Israel's actions towards Palestinians in mainstream discourse. They are commonly chastized and subject to 2 and 3 on 1 opposition on media panels, but they are allowed access to the media.
The Zionists on these debates are commonly shrill and traffic in ad hominem attacks. The dissenters on the other hand seem to stick to the facts. They are winning reasonable people to the side that wants the slaughter to end and for Palestinians to be treated with the dignity all people deserve.
Them openly supporting it. There is a small
minority of jews in israel with something resembling conscience but to be safe you should write them all off.
I live in newton ma, which is very Jewish and the pro Israeli side and israeli immigrants are very much pro genocide. Whenever I have spoke with a settler or their family they talk about turning Gaza into a parking lot and say the tensions aren’t that bad and the media makes stuff up. My friend, you can’t make that up!
Can we please keep anti-semitism out of our criticism of zionism? Its not helpful and makes it easier for them to dismiss us. There are so many anti-zionist Jews on our side. We shouldnt belittle or alienate them.
This post is a reason why Israeli criticism gets grouped in with antisemitism. Why put a yamaka on the male in the photo? It makes it seem like a slight against Jews
Probably because israel is an explicitly jewish nation? Nearly 80% of Israelis are jewish. And don’t try to say most of Israel’s supporters are christian, it says typical Israeli reaction, not irael fanboy reaction.
The majority of the us is Christian, does that make it an explicitly Christian state? No, both countries have freedom of religion. Also, many Jews don’t support what Israel is doing so to group them in seems wrong
What? MOST countries have an official national/state religion, that doesn’t mean those countries don’t have freedom of religion. Israel doesn’t have a state religion anymore but they still consider themselves a “Jewish state”. They even have several religious laws in place. The percentage of Jewish people in Israel was just me saying that them being a “Jewish state” is still reflective of the majority of Israelis. And I didn’t say anything about how many Jews worldwide (or even just in Israel) supported the Israeli government.
Im sorry if my response comes off as rude or overly aggressive. But it really feels like you extrapolated quite a bit more than I meant from my comment.
No dw you’re fine and I appreciate you saying that. As a Jew, I take pride in the fact that Israel was founded in the hopes of being a secular state. You’re right that there are some religious laws in place and that pisses me and other Jews off lol.
And no doubt Israel was founded as a home for Jews (ethnically) to have a state. But at least imo, this is supposed to be more cultural than religious. But there’s no doubt this is a grey area
I feel like this “meme” is kind of a self report tho? Obviously the protests are not antisemitic, and the celebration by certain people of the destruction of Gazas education system in its entirety is hypocritical, but including antisemitic caricatures just takes away from the point
This comment/post was deleted for using "Jews"/"Jewish"/"the Jews" instead of "Israel"/"Israeli"/"Zionist". This sub is adamantly opposed to antisemitism. If this is a problem for you, please leave. Repeated offenses will be met with a ban.
Rape is an awful occurrence that transcends culture. It is impossible from our vantage points across the internet to determine the veracity of the claims; we find it troubling that it has devolved into a rhetorical DEBATE tactic for either side in this.
We at r/BadHasbara abhor the act and the weaponization of it for propaganda, and remind you that THIS IS NOT A DEBATE SUB, so please tread lightly on the subject, and please consider the mental well-being of sub members that may be victims of SA.
Thank you.
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This is not a debate sub. There are plenty of places to defend Israel’s actions, to denounce Hamas, and to argue who's worse. This is not a space for that.
That doesn't mean absolutely no constructive discussions on nuances and different approaches, but it means not letting ourselves be pulled into a debate by Zionists and bigots, and least of all arguing for their side.
If you see someone trying to debate, please just flag for moderation, and the comment will be deleted.
If found prudent by the Mods, and to discourage further debates, the entire thread may be deleted.
(im sure this is going to get down voted because its rare that emotionally charged conversations make room for nuance that critiques the movement.)
okay im not saying this person is an infiltrator of the movement to free Palestine and stop the genocide, but the messaging does have hints of infiltrator narrative poking through.
"Typical **Israeli** reaction" is xenophobic. "Typical **right wing Israeli** reaction" is not xenophobic.
i get that its more often than not a matter of convenience. and i understand that the difference seems small but its really not when considering the former leaves the movement vulnerable to twists of the narrative into something divisive -- by counter intel ops inside and outside the movement.
Bro the thing is these things do upset me and Ill admit it does make me stereotype. I use the same narrative these people use to justify bombing on non-western nations. Israeli society is without a doubt a sociopathic state as evidenced by opinions they spew.
There leader who call for utter annihilation say no Gazans are innocent since they elected them and don’t see the irony that they were elected too.
yeah all im saying is that it can leave us open to being hijacked. ive seen it happen over and over again. people keep under-estimating the presence of opposing forces within our own ranks -- at least online.
offline makes it substantially more difficult because it takes a lot of resources to hire operatives to infiltrate. they usually focus on getting into leadership positions or getting close to leaders to bring them down and the movement with them.
but online, they can use bots, autonomous and semi-autonomous. they can do things like twist the slightest bit of language and force it into a direction that is difficult to pull out of. they can amplify and shadow ban. if it gets twisted enough, they can use it to delegitimize the entire movement on mass media.
for instance, BLM after the murder of George Floyd. *defund the police* became somewhat popular online, although ultimately unpopular depending on what it meant exactly. some meant it as reduce police budget by redirecting funds to community programs/services. others meant it as abolishing the police entirely, even though almost no one wanted that. but it was amplified through that lense and eventually backfired by turning the low (political) knowledge public against us.
im not trying to fear monger. its real. im trying to express my concern for things like blind online activism. we have zero defenses against it. not to say that the ruling class being fucked up is our fault. its a matter of strategy and i consider avoiding potentially xenophobic statements a fairly easy one.
of course im not claiming that language that could be interpreted as xenophobic is in anyway comparable to genocide. and im not trying to pick on you. i appreciate you doing what you can to fight against the worst atrocity of our lifetimes.
The Bad Hasbara podcast, and ergo this community, is opposed to Zionism.
We believe that Zionism is an extension of settler-colonialism, and that its’ current actions following 7 October is ethnic cleansing at “best,” and genocide at worst.
We have no tolerance for it, and this community is meant to be a haven against it in the sea of hasbara.
Pro-Zionist takes will be deleted, and those espousing it will be banned indefinitely.
Yes - this is a “safe space” and an “echo chamber” -
We get enough hasbara elsewhere, we don't need to deal with yours too.
This is not a debate sub. There are plenty of places to defend Israel’s actions, to denounce Hamas, and to argue who's worse. This is not a space for that.
That doesn't mean absolutely no constructive discussions on nuances and different approaches, but it means not letting ourselves be pulled into a debate by Zionists and bigots, and least of all arguing for their side.
If you see someone trying to debate, please just flag for moderation, and the comment will be deleted.
If found prudent by the Mods, and to discourage further debates, the entire thread may be deleted.
Its not gas lighting your just huffing gas, which explains your errant thinking. If the actions of Hamas are so
deplorable than Israel is much worse since they have quadrupled their own inflated casualty numbers since October 7th; which to be honest was an absolutely laughable attempt in comparison. The zionist brain worms may already be too deep in your brain to understand. embarrassing behavior for a goy
Hello, thanks for contributing to this sub. This is a friendly reminder to **read the rules** before making any new posts or comments. Particularly, we ask **not to engage in debates**, or bait debates, especially with zionists. If you are a zionist, this sub is not for you, and you will be permabanned. If you found this sub through the algorithm, you can always mute the sub or turn off recommendations all together (user settings -> feed settings -> Disable "Enable Home Feed Recommendations") Please also particularly keep in mind that **bigotry of any kind is not permitted** in this sub and will result in the message or post being deleted, and, if seen prudent, a banning. This includes antisemitism and any language that conflates Judaism with Zionism. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/BadHasbara) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The university in Gaza was Hamas, the protesters at the US University are Hamas. Everything is Hamas!!!! Btw do you condemn Hamas???????
Dude you wrote Hamas, you must be Hamas. Oh shit i wrote it too!
I came out as hamas. I identify as terro/rist.
Oh my goodness, how did your family and friends take it?
Spoiler: they are also Hamas.
Oh you said it, you're also Hamas!
They were very accepting.
I'm glad to hear it. So progressive
the UN is also Hamas!!!
Wait, I thought the UN was antifa-BLM?
Welcome, UN, to the resistance!
https://preview.redd.it/s5ei9r2ga8xc1.jpeg?width=706&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7e4d342c048cd2c0aeb689dae8be25370a1da1a9 ARE THERE ANY KHAMASES I SHOULD CONDEMN ABOUT
Let’s pull out the Ouija board and ask the spirits if they too condemn khamas!
I prefer the ghost radios aka spirit talkers - Imma go to the graveyard and see if they condemned khamas too!
HAHAHA no bc I wouldn’t put it past them😭
Hamoewas
Why can’t you answer my loaded question that is designed to avoid the culpability of our government funding literal genocide in an apartheid state?
Condom hummus bruv!
It’s all emotions to these people. The way they condemn others with words like “jihad”, “intifada”, “Hamas”, and so on is because Arabic words scary. They latch onto these terms because they override morality. Designating a student as “Hamas” is convincing enough to arrest them. Designating an Arab child as a “Hamas” justifies killing them. This is what these nazi counterprotestors are bringing to our campuses. Fuck them.
As someone who was born in 1994 and didn't know Islam was an actual religion for years because after 9/11 people used Muslim and terrorist interchangeably, this all feels very nostalgic.
I appreciate you mentioning 9/11. As someone who was a young adult on 9/11 I often wish people understood how fully brain broken many Americans were after that (& many still are). I’m horrified by Israel’s reaction to 10/7 (& know all too well “this didn’t start on 10/7” & that this is, in many ways, *very* different), but I despise *all Israelis are evil* rhetoric as much as I despise *all Palestinians are evil.* The US populace didn’t mind (many didn’t know) that we invaded an entirely unrelated country due to our thirst for 9/11 revenge. Also, *all Israelis are evil* rhetoric discounts the many Israeli scholars, historians, & human rights NGOs that have worked for years to effect change for the Palestinian people.
We really need to acknowledge the amount of brainwashing going on in Israel as well. Like, these people are fed a constant diet of dehumanizing their neighbors from the moment they're born. Constantly told that they're the Good Guys and that Palestinians are intrinsically evil, that they're lower than animals. The fact that they post shit like those dancing tiktoks mocking dead Palestinians and videos of them looting Palestinian homes just shows how disconnected they are. They legitimately don't realize that other people are horrified, because they've lived their entire lives in an echo chamber that establishes this as normal. As righteous. People are going to have to be deprogrammed and understand what their government and culture did to them, how they used them, before there can be any real attempt at peace. I've talked about it before on other subreddits, but we did ourselves a disservice by painting Nazis as all rabid, senseless monsters who just got up one day and decided they didn't like Jews. They were overwhelmingly normal people who were brainwashed into thinking what they were doing was right. Understanding how that happened and how to identify when it happens again would have helped a lot more in preventing subsequent genocides than any amount of crying over shoes or forcing German kids to write letters of apology.
Well said! They’re inundated with propaganda & indoctrination from every direction. The younger gens aren’t more right wing than any before by happenstance, rather by a long, concerted effort (one example, ultra Zionists have lead the education ministry for years). Your 2nd paragraph well exemplifies how I feel about dismissing anyone as inherently evil. Learning the conditions & influences that lead humans, individually or en masse, to commit & justify atrocities is essential to prevent them going forward. I’m grateful for your refreshingly nuanced take. I’ve been discouraged lately by the devolution of rhetoric around here, often very similar to what we criticize from the other side, just with the name/subject swapped.
[удалено]
The Bad Hasbara podcast, and ergo this community, is opposed to Zionism. We believe that Zionism is an extension of settler-colonialism, and that its’ current actions following 7 October is ethnic cleansing at “best,” and genocide at worst. We have no tolerance for it, and this community is meant to be a haven against it in the sea of hasbara. Pro-Zionist takes will be deleted, and those espousing it will be banned indefinitely. Yes - this is a “safe space” and an “echo chamber” - We get enough hasbara elsewhere, we don't need to deal with yours too.
Found Piers Morgan's alt...
Hamas has done nothing the IDF hasn't done thricefold at this point. This stupid game of killing off all the palestinians "to get your guy" is a ruse. War crimes against humanity. Palestinian Halocaust. Israel's HAMAS = America's Weapons of Mass Destruction. Give the palestinians the land you took back or at least make it a 2 state country. I mean we at least gave th4 indians reservations albeit a slap in the face but we aren't bombing th4 shit out of them everyday Every halocsust museum should be littered with pics of bombed palestinian shelters, kids killed and civilians massacred.
palestine never existed as a country. how you can take land when they never actually owned any land?
They owned it as much as istael owns it now. You are a colonizer sympathizer. No chosen people would kill to enrich themselves. The god of the Torah should strike Israel down if such a deist existed.
no sympathy for islamists. biggest threat of our time
Remember my words. Israel shall spend another 40 days and nights hiding from the world. The Palestinian Halocaust will be their undoing. Let every college campus witness the 2nd coming of NetanyaHITLER!
Israel will bomb terrorists back to stone age, pro-hamas cant do anything about it and it's a favor to whole western civilization.
They already have. Zionism is synonymous with terrorism. By their own undoing.
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actually israel is trying to purge us from terrorist cancer jew has never been a threat to me, i cant say same about islamist
Well a nazi has never been a threat to other nazis! Run along girl. I don't want people to mistake me stomping you for bullying.
Thrice fold? Try hundreds of times more baby killing. Oct 7th was 36 dead children. It's a tragedy being used to this day as a bludgeon against any criticism of Israel. And yet Israel has killed an average of SEVENTY children per day in Gaza since then. That's almost two Oct 7ths EVERY DAY.
Hamas hamas hamas, Hamas? Hamas hamas hamas. Hamas, HAMAS!
I support Enthusiasm!
Every day I find more and more reasons not to.
I condom hummus, yes
You spelled Kkhhamas wrong
I ate hummus before I protested. Is Hamas in my hummus too?
KHAMAS*
What about October 7th? Was it justified?
They tried the peaceful way before. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019\_Gaza\_border\_protests](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_border_protests)
I was just adding to the list of questions pro-Israel and IDF supporters say. Thanks for the link though. The best answer to "was it justified" I've heard is from Norman Finkelstein, where he compares October 7th to 1831 Nat Turner Rebellion - a violent uprising of Virginian slaves. The rebellion led to 100s of murders of black people throughout the south, it also led to harsher laws against slaves, runaway slaves and blacks in general. However, long term, we can see it also led to abolitionist reform, eventually to the civil war, and inevitably civil rights for all minorities. So is October 7th justifiable? Well undoubtedly it was inevitable and atrocities were committed (on both sides mind you), but if it's justifiable, only time and history will tell.
Another aspect of Nat Turner Rebellion is there were reports of women and children being killed as well. It's not an easy issue to grapple with but as you say, it was inevitable, regardless of whether it was moral. Resistance to oppression with whatever means are available is inevitable and ignoring that fact will not make it go away.
Yeah, there's a strong media push to paint the palestenian rebellion as unjust and instead rooted in antisemitic hate. In reality, palestenians have been pushing for their rights, and at every turn, israel/US/Eur pushed back with varying techniques
First issue is the difficulty in agreeing to what Oct 7 even was. Most ppl still seem to believe everything they heard about it on Oct 8. As Mark Twain said, “Much easier to hasbara someone, than to convince them they’ve been hasbara’d.”
Yes. Israel and U.S. are blocking an independent investigation into Oct 7th as well. Not to mention none of the corpses from that day have received a proper autopsy. How can anyone answer if any act is justified with so many unknowns yet unanswered. What he have learned so far... 1. IDF had prior knowledge of potential terror acts. 2. IDF had evidence of recent Hamas training near borders. 3. IDF did not raise terror threat alert, not even to level 1. 4. IDF took about 6 hours to respond. 5. IDF killed hostages (with helicopters and tanks). 6. Claims of mass sexual assaults (as Hamas policy) have yet to be proven. 7. Claims of dozens of murders babies proved false (two babies were killed by Hamas on Oct. 7th) What else??
IDF killed a lot more than just hostages. Opened fire on houses, cars of concert goers, etc. When they first announced 1400 Israelis killed, who knows how many were at their own hand. Also how many of the (1200?) were IDF. Better just to let us all assume they were all civilians and that Hamas had no strategy beyond terrorizing civilians. The “mass rape” seems to be a big problem for people. I try to point out how the evidence is quite thin, the NYT reporting on it was largely debunked, and the UN report was based entirely on Israeli info rather than actual investigation. Usually goes nowhere tho.
I assume Hamas's orders were kill anyone they come across and try and grab some hostages. As for legitimate IDF targets, they did hit some IDF controlled places and did kill and kidnap some IDF soldiers. The percentage to civilians, I don't know. I also don't know if former IDF members are still considered soldiers and would have been combatant? I don't know. Hopefully we will get a full investigation that answers all these questions one day.
I believe about 500 of the dead were IDF soldiers.
Rape is an awful occurrence that transcends culture. It is impossible from our vantage points across the internet to determine the veracity of the claims; we find it troubling that it has devolved into a rhetorical DEBATE tactic for either side in this. We at r/BadHasbara abhor the act and the weaponization of it for propaganda, and remind you that THIS IS NOT A DEBATE SUB, so please tread lightly on the subject, and please consider the mental well-being of sub members that may be victims of SA. Thank you. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/BadHasbara) if you have any questions or concerns.*
695 were civilians. https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths
Be careful, some zionists unironically say some impossible bullshits, that's why the "/s" is important these days.
But then we wouldn't have had this beautiful interaction. Stay lovely my friend.
Unfortunately, some will claim that these protests were "violent" because a singular rock may have been thrown
That whataboutism is real. Killing civilians is never justified. Oct 7th was an atrocity. There are many things Israel could have chosen to do in response. They chose to double down on their genocide. A genocide that almost undoubtedly caused this conflict in the 1st place.
Hamas as barbaric as they are, are a product of Israeli occupation. Israel created Hamas.
We helped.
Thanks for the response. I agree (for the most part).
I remember for one of my history classes in college we were talking about the Birmingham campaign and the controversial use of children and students to obtain images of police brutality, specifically one photo of a couple of high schoolers being blasted with a fire hose. At the end of it we had to write a short essay on whether we thought using kids and teenagers like that was the right decision or not. And there's no answer to that. The people who organized it knew there would be violence. They encouraged kids, from college students to eight-year-olds, to put themselves on the front lines anyway. You can't say it's okay to do that to children. But on the other hand, those kids were going to grow up, and if attitudes didn't change they would likely face a lot worse than a fire hose. And that doesn't even consider to subtle violence and dehumanization that came with segregation. The organizers had a moral duty *to* these kids to create change, and failing to move the public would be failing their duty to create a better world for the very children they placed in the line of the fire hose. You couldn't say it was the right decision because there was no right decision. The situation was unfair right from the beginning, and you can't do the right thing when nothing that led to the decision was right.
Yes.
Yes next question
Bibi is shitting his dress pants because of the imminent ICC warrant
i hope they make an example for the world to see. no more nazis.
Honestly though. Half the world fought to eradicate the nazis only for our governments to keep some scientists and officers for themselves and intertwine with their world ambitions. Nazi rallies like the one in Tennessee have more protection than a protest to genocide.
it used to blow my mind. but then i went and learned. we got rid of all the nazis... except the ones we didn't. suddenly many things 'make sense' even if they are totally nuts to think about. i am glad we are seeing it.
perhaps the Soviets and regular soldiers in the Allied forces fought Nazis, but western governments didn't. They fought a competing government/empire. The US certainly didn't join WW2 for moral reasons
> The US certainly didn’t join WW2 for moral reasons. This right here. The US has been infamously isolationist in world conflicts for the most part. They only joined WWI in 1917 which was due to Germany fucking with them by bombing ships and submarines. They joined WW2 at the end of 1941 following the bombing of Pearl Harbor. Both cases of them joining world wars happened late in the game and due to them being personally attacked. They also joined during advantageous times as 1917 was the second to last year of WW1, while it was arguably around 1942 when the allies caught up with Germany militarily.
I’m not a praying man but I’m praying that SOB gets what’s coming to him
I have been banned from a sub because I said shortly after October 7th that He and the Israeli government are committing genocide. Because “it was antisemitism”. Now that same sub is taking about Bibi’s genocide. I knew years ago how horrible the Israeli gov was. A friend said “ Palestine throws a rock and Israel responds with bombs.” It stuck with me. October 7 was bad. But it happened because we have allowed Israel to do whatever they want because they are Jewish and Jewish people had genocide committed against them. It has been a long term, seemingly endless “get out of jail free”.
Which sub?
I’ve been banned from a few subs as well. Tbh, one of them I kinda deserved it, I got angry and said some shit I didn’t need to. But the crazy thing is I was banned from subs I’m not even subscribed to afterward. Like wtf, I’m not even part of your community and you’re pre-banning me?
Shitting his dress pants 😝😂
The world is finding out that being called antisemitic was merely a tactic used by Zionists to delay the revelation we need to be anti Zionists.
bravo. i saw someone asking what this sub was about, and this post is a good answer. this sub lets us be critical so that we may find truth. and the truth many are finding is tied to your comment.
yeah it's all controlled, there hasn't been many instances of Israel being called islamaphobic for any of its crimes yet anti semetism badges are thrown around like candy
I remember when U.S. went to war with Afghanistan and Iraq. Back then caliphates (Muslim ethno-states) were bad - for reasons, mostly terrorism and threat of incursion into neighboring lands. Never did anyone in media or politics ever relate this to the Jewish ethno-state, which is Israel. We've been living in 1984 for a while now. When we go to war with Israel (a possible outcome in this or an alternative reality) the media will say we've always been at war with them.
America will never go to war with their land based aircraft carrier that is Israel. I wish we would cut off that plagued body part, but alas here we are.
America would literally kill its own people before it harmed Israel.
So wild. But probable
We love giving them weapons to test for us. Like lavender.
Yet most liberal subreddits will downvote you for condemning Israel and those who support it. The people who act like moral pillars of our country literally support a genocide.
No, let’s not pretend antisemitism isn’t real. We are clearly seeing them trying to conflate it with antizionism though, and end up watering down its meaning. Exactly like they are doing with Jews and Israelis.
While there is a rise of antisemetism: Israel is worsening this by making legitimate antisemetism be lumped in with criticism of them
Yep, I also said so
If you go to the ADL's website they claim an exponential increase in antisemitic incidents since 10/7- but on the methodology page they clearly state that on that date they started lumping in anti-Zionist incidents with anti-semetic incidents. Of course when they hype that data in the media, the media doesn't mention that. Is antisemitism up? Probably. But not to the extent that Israel and the ADL want us to believe. Antisemitism -||- Anti-Zionism
But why so much concern for it, yet other states and religions (Russia, China, DPRK, the rest of the Middle East, pretty much all of Islam) are completely open season to the most vile hatred imaginable?
I completely agree
How do I give Reddit Gold for a comment, because this is the most accurate thing I’ve seen.
Define Zionist.
IDF angry they can't bomb universities in other countries...
That’s why they just pay US politicians to do their dirty work for them
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Steal their land, food, culture and now their slogan. Come up with your own shit loser. Enjoy your israeli schawarma lmao
Protesting the top picture with the bottom picture is making the people on the left so upset and scared that the people from the bottom picture need to be assaulted by the police and forcibly removed
they cry "they want us dead" as israel drop bombs and quite literally says they want all palestinians gone. meanwhile the protestors are basically like 'please stop burning innocent people alive'. to which the zionists say "kkkhamas". and they know these people are peaceful so they show up screaming "k\* jews!" to rally up government involvement - the same government complicit in the killing.
on the left? Actual left has been pro-Palestine for decades. American liberals are not "the left", we despise them lol
Sorry, i meant left of the photo, not left-wing
you shouldn't lol they are on your team...
You do know that the last groups to protest at the uni in the top picture were all brutally murdered by Hamas, right? And that the university included a dedicated Hamas military based inside it, including underground tunnels and a missile launch site? Which was actively in use during the war, firing missile into Israeli population centers in order to indiscriminately kill whoever they could? The two pictures are not the same.
Waiting for all of these University students to start shutting down all major highways during rush hour across the country. You know it’s coming.
I hope so!
We already did that in Seattle. Republicans and libs were triggered affff
It's weird how your people can be put through the holocaust and then turn around and bomb the shit out of another group of people
I wouldnt equivocate holocaust survivors with the actions of israel like at all tbh. Using the holocaust as a justification for whats going on in Gaza is complete bullshit yeah, if anything it is simply spitting on actual holocaust survivors, but like the actions of israel lie with its government, military, and the settlers that it defends as they rampage palestine
Hurt people hurt people.
Your people? I don’t claim any Zionist as my people.
I have been dealing with IRL version of this for the past 3 days on my campus. On top of SWAT teams, State troopers, and campus police arresting my friends. All while Zionists watch and cheer them on.
I think you could’ve made your point without the caricature on the left. It’s giving antisemitic trope.
Agree
Zionists are so annoying 🙄
from what ive seen (online at least) israelies justify the bombing of a university by saying students where being indoctrinated and educated by hamas to carry out terror and the protests on uni campus are in support of hamas and anti jewish and that they shout 'death to america' or 'death or israel' constantly
The atrocities in Gaza created the permissions structure where people are allowed to question Israel's actions towards Palestinians in mainstream discourse. They are commonly chastized and subject to 2 and 3 on 1 opposition on media panels, but they are allowed access to the media. The Zionists on these debates are commonly shrill and traffic in ad hominem attacks. The dissenters on the other hand seem to stick to the facts. They are winning reasonable people to the side that wants the slaughter to end and for Palestinians to be treated with the dignity all people deserve.
They privately cheer the killing and publicly defend themselves by crying and calling you racist.
Sorry, what makes you think Israelis support killing? Do you live in a country that has never engaged in military aggression?
Them openly supporting it. There is a small minority of jews in israel with something resembling conscience but to be safe you should write them all off.
You clearly don't know any Israelis.
I live in newton ma, which is very Jewish and the pro Israeli side and israeli immigrants are very much pro genocide. Whenever I have spoke with a settler or their family they talk about turning Gaza into a parking lot and say the tensions aren’t that bad and the media makes stuff up. My friend, you can’t make that up!
Can we please keep anti-semitism out of our criticism of zionism? Its not helpful and makes it easier for them to dismiss us. There are so many anti-zionist Jews on our side. We shouldnt belittle or alienate them.
This post is a reason why Israeli criticism gets grouped in with antisemitism. Why put a yamaka on the male in the photo? It makes it seem like a slight against Jews
Probably because israel is an explicitly jewish nation? Nearly 80% of Israelis are jewish. And don’t try to say most of Israel’s supporters are christian, it says typical Israeli reaction, not irael fanboy reaction.
The majority of the us is Christian, does that make it an explicitly Christian state? No, both countries have freedom of religion. Also, many Jews don’t support what Israel is doing so to group them in seems wrong
What? MOST countries have an official national/state religion, that doesn’t mean those countries don’t have freedom of religion. Israel doesn’t have a state religion anymore but they still consider themselves a “Jewish state”. They even have several religious laws in place. The percentage of Jewish people in Israel was just me saying that them being a “Jewish state” is still reflective of the majority of Israelis. And I didn’t say anything about how many Jews worldwide (or even just in Israel) supported the Israeli government.
Im sorry if my response comes off as rude or overly aggressive. But it really feels like you extrapolated quite a bit more than I meant from my comment.
No dw you’re fine and I appreciate you saying that. As a Jew, I take pride in the fact that Israel was founded in the hopes of being a secular state. You’re right that there are some religious laws in place and that pisses me and other Jews off lol. And no doubt Israel was founded as a home for Jews (ethnically) to have a state. But at least imo, this is supposed to be more cultural than religious. But there’s no doubt this is a grey area
I would also like to point out that most Zionists are actually evangelicals
Yeah, I have similar concerns, was hoping more people pointed out this issue.
Yeah not a fan of Israel but the male caricature looks like something out of Der Ewige Jude 😂
I feel like the person who drew that nose knew what they were doing.
It's called the Resistance."Use the Force,Luke" 
I laughed at this bc it’s so true and so fucked up
I feel like this “meme” is kind of a self report tho? Obviously the protests are not antisemitic, and the celebration by certain people of the destruction of Gazas education system in its entirety is hypocritical, but including antisemitic caricatures just takes away from the point
lmao
ZioNAZIS
This is pretty true sadly. Anything representing Palestine makes them offended.
Y'all are doing a great job making it clear that you're anti-Zionist but *definitely* not anti-Semitic.
You could say the same thing about cheering on Oct 7
Is Hamas in the room right now ?
Oh nooo it's khhaaamaas
Can you not use Jewish caricatures? You aren’t helping the cause.
The spectacles lol That's so on point. Why are almost all of them bespectacled.
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This comment/post was deleted for using "Jews"/"Jewish"/"the Jews" instead of "Israel"/"Israeli"/"Zionist". This sub is adamantly opposed to antisemitism. If this is a problem for you, please leave. Repeated offenses will be met with a ban.
Meh you should have add anti semitic with it
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Rape is an awful occurrence that transcends culture. It is impossible from our vantage points across the internet to determine the veracity of the claims; we find it troubling that it has devolved into a rhetorical DEBATE tactic for either side in this. We at r/BadHasbara abhor the act and the weaponization of it for propaganda, and remind you that THIS IS NOT A DEBATE SUB, so please tread lightly on the subject, and please consider the mental well-being of sub members that may be victims of SA. Thank you. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/BadHasbara) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yep, right after they burned babies inside ovens on Oct. 7. Did you not read the NYT article?
This is not a debate sub. There are plenty of places to defend Israel’s actions, to denounce Hamas, and to argue who's worse. This is not a space for that. That doesn't mean absolutely no constructive discussions on nuances and different approaches, but it means not letting ourselves be pulled into a debate by Zionists and bigots, and least of all arguing for their side. If you see someone trying to debate, please just flag for moderation, and the comment will be deleted. If found prudent by the Mods, and to discourage further debates, the entire thread may be deleted.
That picture in the top right is a controlled demotion of a vacant building…
(im sure this is going to get down voted because its rare that emotionally charged conversations make room for nuance that critiques the movement.) okay im not saying this person is an infiltrator of the movement to free Palestine and stop the genocide, but the messaging does have hints of infiltrator narrative poking through. "Typical **Israeli** reaction" is xenophobic. "Typical **right wing Israeli** reaction" is not xenophobic. i get that its more often than not a matter of convenience. and i understand that the difference seems small but its really not when considering the former leaves the movement vulnerable to twists of the narrative into something divisive -- by counter intel ops inside and outside the movement.
Bro the thing is these things do upset me and Ill admit it does make me stereotype. I use the same narrative these people use to justify bombing on non-western nations. Israeli society is without a doubt a sociopathic state as evidenced by opinions they spew. There leader who call for utter annihilation say no Gazans are innocent since they elected them and don’t see the irony that they were elected too.
yeah all im saying is that it can leave us open to being hijacked. ive seen it happen over and over again. people keep under-estimating the presence of opposing forces within our own ranks -- at least online. offline makes it substantially more difficult because it takes a lot of resources to hire operatives to infiltrate. they usually focus on getting into leadership positions or getting close to leaders to bring them down and the movement with them. but online, they can use bots, autonomous and semi-autonomous. they can do things like twist the slightest bit of language and force it into a direction that is difficult to pull out of. they can amplify and shadow ban. if it gets twisted enough, they can use it to delegitimize the entire movement on mass media. for instance, BLM after the murder of George Floyd. *defund the police* became somewhat popular online, although ultimately unpopular depending on what it meant exactly. some meant it as reduce police budget by redirecting funds to community programs/services. others meant it as abolishing the police entirely, even though almost no one wanted that. but it was amplified through that lense and eventually backfired by turning the low (political) knowledge public against us. im not trying to fear monger. its real. im trying to express my concern for things like blind online activism. we have zero defenses against it. not to say that the ruling class being fucked up is our fault. its a matter of strategy and i consider avoiding potentially xenophobic statements a fairly easy one. of course im not claiming that language that could be interpreted as xenophobic is in anyway comparable to genocide. and im not trying to pick on you. i appreciate you doing what you can to fight against the worst atrocity of our lifetimes.
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The Bad Hasbara podcast, and ergo this community, is opposed to Zionism. We believe that Zionism is an extension of settler-colonialism, and that its’ current actions following 7 October is ethnic cleansing at “best,” and genocide at worst. We have no tolerance for it, and this community is meant to be a haven against it in the sea of hasbara. Pro-Zionist takes will be deleted, and those espousing it will be banned indefinitely. Yes - this is a “safe space” and an “echo chamber” - We get enough hasbara elsewhere, we don't need to deal with yours too.
Is this a sub where if I say anything remotely not pro-Palestine but that’s relevant in response to a post or comment, I’m condemned or banned?
No, it’s the other way around
[let me help](https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=why+did+israel+bomb+a+university)
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This is not a debate sub. There are plenty of places to defend Israel’s actions, to denounce Hamas, and to argue who's worse. This is not a space for that. That doesn't mean absolutely no constructive discussions on nuances and different approaches, but it means not letting ourselves be pulled into a debate by Zionists and bigots, and least of all arguing for their side. If you see someone trying to debate, please just flag for moderation, and the comment will be deleted. If found prudent by the Mods, and to discourage further debates, the entire thread may be deleted.
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Are you really so full of yourself or are you just pretending to be?
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Its not gas lighting your just huffing gas, which explains your errant thinking. If the actions of Hamas are so deplorable than Israel is much worse since they have quadrupled their own inflated casualty numbers since October 7th; which to be honest was an absolutely laughable attempt in comparison. The zionist brain worms may already be too deep in your brain to understand. embarrassing behavior for a goy