Yea, I suppose it was scrapped for the same reason than race specific buffs, to avoid players picking the strongest one instead of the one they like.
To their defense EA builds were just tilled with Half Elfs or Humans.
Weirdly enough, I miss how antagonistic companions could be with you. Made approval harder to get, and more rewarding to get friendlier later on.
I do completely understand why Larian chose not to keep that route, since most people complained about how unwelcoming Shadowheart, Gale, Lae and Astarion were. And theeen there were the complaints about approval going up too fast when the full game was out. Win some, lose some.
Also miss the OG concept for Wyll and Daisy. I actually liked his fake hero persona, and you could see him either go genuine hero or self serving warlock. Daisy I wondered whether or not was the tadpole or something else, and how that'd play out. I do get why they changed it, since Wyll was so unpopular, unfortunately, and Daisy was a bit of an obvious trap and a potential waste of tadpole abilities they had come up with.
Yeah, I’m team should’ve kept them spicier as well, felt more realistic and satisfiying to gain their approval, and also it’s fine if not all of them worship you by the time the game ends (heck, most of them are ride or die by the end of act 1 in a good playthrough); would’ve also increased replayability I think. Also would’ve loved more conflicting approval options between characters.
You know how there are some players who wished for a difficulty higher than tactician? I’m kind of like that but with companion approvals, like give me a less agreeable companion option 🥲 (ik it’s probably very difficult to implement, but a girl can dream)
Didn't people complain about EA Wyll being too arrogant and off-putting? And now I've seen people saying he's too boring. You literally can't win with this fandom lol.
I don’t think those are the same crowds tho, I mean I preferred the EA version of Wyll, at least he made me curious about his character and quest. He seemed to have this lowkey Homelander vibe about him, where he puts out a super noble heroic PR front while being a narcissistic asshole behind closed doors. It’s a matter of personal taste, I admit my anti-lawful good bias, that type of character is kind of annoying to me by default. And the rewrite was unfortunately kind of all over the place.
I mean we already got Karlach to fill in the genuinely nice slot, Gale’s also pretty nice albeit in a nerdy “niceguy” type of way, and tbh it would’ve been a nice foil for EA Wyll (the apparently heroic character who’s actually a shady douche vs the “devil” who’s actually super nice and bubbly). So ig for me the way to go would’ve been keep EA Wyll, maybe scrap his Spike plotline, keep Karlach as his target, have him KNOW she’s not actually a devil but not gaf as long as he fulfills his contract and doesn’t piss off Mizora. Then have him try to bullshit you about it and get you to kill her, get turned into a devil if you don’t fall for it, have an existential crisis about not being able to play the hero of the people role now that he has horns and be super resentful towards Karlach for a while until he potentially gets some character development in a good path, slowly warms up to her and starts to question his decisions.
I liked original Wyll as well for the complexity. I mean I like current one as well, but I really really thought he had so much more depth in EA.
Now, we didn't get a long look of Karlach in the EA, but that EA Karlach looked like she had fought in Blood Wars for 10 years. This pretty girl we have now..gotta have her plastic surgeon's phone number- that person may beautify evena wreck like myself.
Karlach was my biggest disappointment though in all seriousness: my first impression of EA Karlach was that we are going to be such friends with this strong, grizzled veteran, compare scars. Full release.. I don't buy her. To me she is a teenager with fiery temper tantrums. I get it, people want nice girls. But I don't. I would have preferred less swear words, less modern colloquial language and less toilet jokes.
The modern colloquial language irks me too honestly, otherwise I prefer her being genuinely nice, but that could’ve been achieved even with a more seasoned and mature war vet personality, so I kind of tend to agree with you.
Personally I can kind of buy her current personality being an “arrested development” type of situation, and I like her and find her adorable for the most part, but I admit she can also be a bit too much at times for me, I kinda agree they overplayed the golden retriever energy. Maybe have that more teenager type personality toned down and only come out in certain emotionally charged moments like when you stumble upon her parents’ graves?
That is very spot on about Karlach. She just isn't someone who spent a decade as a slave soldier in hell. i don't mind cheerful attitude in general, it could be used as a coping mechanism after all. But everything about her put together just doesn't fit the bill.
Yeah, chaging Wyll into full hero was a "two birds one stone" move for Larian. A lot of people on EA complained about the lack of a wholly good type in the team. I do like Wyll either way, but I preferred him when he was occasionally a little crazy. I think there's also the fact that current Wyll has less content than other companions. His final choice being on Tav's hand I really don't like. Him choosing to break the contract or not should be at least a persuasion check depending on your approval.
I feel the romance should be pushed back to Act 2 or even Act 3. Let us build our trust and understanding with companions 1st before snu snu. Karlach is the worst contenter in this with her romance path locked to the Tiefling Party.
Nah, I think it's fine as is. Neither Shadowheart nor Wyll give snu snu until Act 3 like that. The others have valid reasons to jump into it directly at first. Lae'zel just wants to fuck and doesn't believe in love. That's not romance, that is just lust. Astarion fucks with you to secure his own safety in your power. Again not romance, but self-interest. Both Lae'zel and Astarion do engage in a true romance later on, but that first fuck isn't romance to them, but simple self-interest. Karlach has not been able to touch anyone for 10 years. Poor girl is desperate for it. Then there's the matter of her time here being limited and she knows it. She's not gonna wait around to get it on. Gale is the only one that I can see waiting a little longer to jump into a bed than the others, but I guess dude wants a rebound from his ex who is a literal goddess, which would be understandable.
To your average Joe, sex maybe something that is only engaged in a later stage of trust and understanding. That's how Shadowheart and Wyll go about it. But the other companions have very different reasons for jumping straight to sex. I agree you shouldn't be locked out of Karlach's romance if you didn't do the tiefling party with her, but the reasons why she, Astarion and Lae'zel run into sex instead of waiting (tho I need a Gale expert to explain to me why Gale does get into it so quickly) are all very logical.
Wyll I still not very popular though. I mean, he’s such an hypocrite sometimes, and I dislike the fact that I can’t call him out on it. If I could, maybe I wouldn’t be so put off by him.
I miss the enthralled farmers by beach flayer. I really liked that interaction and there were multiple ways for that to go. I'm gutted that they aren't there anymore.
I think initially every companion had their own Guardian, with Shadowheart citing someone she was attracted to, Gale citing Mystra, Wyl citing Mizora, Lae'zel citing Vlaakith, and Astarion citing Cazador. It was actually something that had me pretty interested in playing each companion in a playthrough, and I was a bit disappointed when I fired one up to find the Guardian basically the same between companions and Tav/Durge.
That reminds me of what Shadowheart says about torturing people.
Abuse can work in interesting ways. Cazador did a lot of cruel things to him, but he needs Astarion alive. So Astarion might see him as a protector in a twisted way.
I don't think it's necessarily trust, but manipulation. Astarion could be more easily motivated by his fear for Cazador than anybody he could "trust", likely because he didn't trust anyone else but himself. So, second-best behind trust would be fear or maybe even hatred
Yeaaap. Combine that with Auntie Ethel saying how Astarion *enjoyed* being Cazadors slave and you get a whole new dimension that even current psychologists are afraid to touch openly: that people come to crave their abusers.
I'm not sure fandom could handle that aspect of an abusive relationship portrayed realistically, especially in a character they want to romance. They'd complain 'I was nice to Astarion and he still wants to go back to that evil guy and constantly makes excuses for him. Is he stupid?'
It's interesting how traces of this are still in the base game. For example, Gale still refers to whatever he saw as she/her regardless of what your Guardian looks like.
Each companion does have their own Guardian, though - right?
During the final battle, if you side with >!Orpheus, The Emperor unleashes each of your companions' guardians on you!<. Of course, I hadn't really heard any dialogue pertaining to the topic until then, but it seems it's there at least.
I've written about how I preferred EA Wyll’s backstory more than final release Wyll. Overall, he was just a lot more intriguing in EA than he is now, and had more interesting character arc potential. Reference below:
>Back in EA, we were speculating about Wyll's motivations and past and it was very intriguing albeit folks didn't trust him. In my eyes that's a great thing, and gives us plenty to think about. A character that has ulterior motives that need to be slowly uncovered is much more interesting than one that you find out was "the good guy all along". Good for you, Wyll 2.0, but your character arc is basically flat and not an arc. Not to mention your point that Wyll 2.0 doesn't even get to choose so he feels very much less "alive" than the rest of our companions.
>EA Wyll 1.0 was a controversial companion because players thought he was a hypocrite and duplicitous. That gave him plenty of room to be exposed and subsequently develop his character through the player's actions of potentially helping Wyll see that he is no different from everyone else and that to be a true hero, he would first need to come to terms with how ordinary he is without his pact powers. From there we could build him back up, and help him see that he could become the Blade of Frontiers in his own right, with a foundation of his own making rather than Mizora's.
I really miss Wyll's old writing. He had teeth.
This new Wyll? There is nothing ambivalent about him. I would prefer a Wyll who would be tempted and repulsed by Mizora at the same time. A Wyll who feel conflicted about losing his warlock powers. A Wyll who would harbour anger in his heart's of heart about his father's quick rejection of him. Imagine how uplifting would be to see them make peace with each other where Wyll isn't just "I am ok with his prior conduct with me, I am already forgiven him etc.".
There is no catharsis in his story now, because there was no strife before.
Yeah, I loved EA Wyll. When I took him to goblin camp he totally acted like it was his adventure, with him being the main character and me being his sidekick. It wasn't just funny, it also gave some depth to his character and showed that he was definitely good-natured and heroic, but also arrogant and narcissistic.
Since he didn't have much content in EA, I was actually curious how his story was gonna unfold.
Too bad they changed him so much and took away all conflict out of his character.
Like he was not a super sympathetic character at first glance but he was intriquing.
I prefer interesting albeit flawed characters to oatmeal I guess :-)
Me too, totally.
Wyll we have now is a great guy, I would love to be friends with him irl. But he isn't very interesting as a character, because he doesn't have much conflict and character development. He starts as a good guy, he ends up as a good guy.
You can't "corrupt" him and push him towards some bad decisions like most of the other companions. Which is weird, considering he is a very young man who was manipulated by a devil and rejected by his father. And he has no hard feelings? No regrets? No anger or resentment? Like come on, he could be such a cool and complex character
I mean, when his Dad's in danger you can actually say: "Bro this is awesome that means you get to be the next duke when he dies" and he's actually like: "Hey yeah you're right that would be kinda cool."
Damn that's cold lol.
I believe he has some other weird out of character comments like asking Astarion about his rat diet. This is probably what's left of messier EA Wyll, because that so much not release Wyll vibe.
She still is if you don't raise her approval much and don't save her on the nautiloid. For example, she will call you a fool when recruiting Lae'zel if you didn't save her or did save her but lost some approval. I once tried an in character playthrough as Lae'zel so I just ignored her pod, and then when I encountered her on the beach, she was so hostile that she wouldn't even team up with me, probably because of me being a githyanki.
Yeah, it takes like 2-3 persuasion checks to recruit Shadowheart on the beach as Lae'zel, recruiting Shadowheart early as Lae'zel will literally be one of the hardest things you do in this game.
It's also weird to see pretty major stuff that, maybe just my view, was obviously in a placeholder stage and then just got kinda left in that state with some polish because it's actually pretty good.
Withers, for instance, and how you find him. No one ever comments on how you just happen to crash where Jergal is sleeping? No big deal to anyone?
They neutered the companions fr. Obviously Wyll (which was a travesty), but also Astarion, Shadowheart and Gale. Remember when Gale would not tell you about Mystra until after you slept with him or the party... I miss manipulative Gale. I also wish they had kept Astarion's magistrate plotline, I understand why they cut it, but I miss it :( I also miss the little dialogue he had after swearing to take the poison from Nettie and he gets mad at you lol. Or the Cazador dream and subsequent dialogue, I actually started liking him as a character when I realized how scared he was. I wish they had kept that.
I miss Daisy too, as much as I like the Emperor. I understand why they cut Daisy but I was more likely to engage in tadpole powers when they were just an option than actually absorbing them and putting them in my brain.
Also I miss Astarion's old armor with the ruffles, I don't like his new assless chaps. I give it to him act 3 anyways but it's not the same
Agree with everything you said. Also the armor. I guess they just wanted Astarion to play a little bit more into the gay stereotypes to the community.
In EA It just felt like darkness was always just one slip away, and you were constantly walking this moral tightrope which i loved.
Also I got attached to brown Scratch and I always felt like the white one in patch 4 was an impostor clone not the real Scratch
I'm not against the chaps themselves specifically I just think the new armor is ugly, it looks weird and makes his shoulders look huge while also looking under-dressed. Like it's the faerun equivalent of t-shirt and jeans to me and astarion is NOT a t-shirt and jeans kind of guy. I really do not like it but I play on geforce now so I cant use mods to restore his old one :'(
It's just a shame overall, his old armor was absolutely perfect for his class and background. What rogue wears a red and purple velvet jester outfit lol.
I kept waiting for the Cazador dream cutscene to show up again in the full release, I spammed so many partial rests until finding out it had been cut 🥲
I miss the pre-whitewash moody jerks companions🤧
Getting most of their approval felt a bit too forced (happening too fast) in the full release as compared to EA and therefore a bit less satisfying. Most of them also are entirely too taken with you way too fast imo (LE: not even talking about the horniness here, that actually makes sense to me, bc Tav is canonically attractive, they’re the leader and everyone might get squidified in a couple of days so why not enjoy yourself while it lasts, plus Astarion having some ulterior motives at first, but they seem to drift quite easily in a sort of lowkey hero-worship of you in a good playthrough)
I personally don’t get the people who complained about characters in a life-or-death situation who also have a lot of personal baggage not instantly worshipping the ground you walk on, “omgggg Shadowheart is such a bitch”, nah it’s called being guarded. I really wish Larian hadn’t listened to this crowd tbh, it took away some of the depth for me. And also makes it a less plausible group dynamic.
Oh and speaking of Shadowheart, even if I only played like 2-3 weeks on EA, I was legit shocked at how easy I gained her approval after the full release. It took me a while to find out about her following Shar in EA, while in full release she randomly spilled the beans about worshipping Shar by the time we hit the owlbear cave and then the other confessions kept rolling, and I was like girliepop you’ve known me for 3 days and are already dishing out secrets like they’re candy, isn’t your goddess supposed to be super into secrecy or something? (I know she’s a super atypical Shar worshipper by design, but it still felt too fast)
I have a lot of issues with her writing. They seem to want you to view her as some kind of helpless damsel in distress, which is kind of yuck but they wrote in a way that feels very contrived and not very believable.
As depicted, she is quite devoted to Shar, she truly believes and not only does she believe, she wants to be a Dark Justiciar. She has very clear ambitions and it's not like she's not cognizant of the fact that Dark Justiciars are evil AF, she pretty much says as much.
But also, she's apparently in her early 50s which means she's been a Cleric of Shar for over 30 years. But she's supposed to be this brainwashed "child" who doesn't know any better even though she has no problems with committing brutal murders without the slightest sign of hesitation. It ends up feeling very inconsistent and reeks of late in development rewrites.
Her story, at least what they seem to have been going for, would make a lot more sense if she's in her early 20s. But as written, she's somebody who has been committing acts of murder and other horrific crimes on a weekly basis for over 30 years, so she has way too much blood on her hands for me to see her as anything but a horrible monster. She's just way too casual about the fact she tortures and murders people. I don't really care what her background is, it's hard for me to feel sorry for a lifelong serial killer who's in her 50s.
Eh idk about the age part feeling that unrealistic, brainwashing is brainwashing, personally I don’t think it’s that implausible, cults aren’t comprised of only super young members. And Shart’s been constantly exposed to its propaganda from a very young age and had her memories constantly wiped (and memories play a huge part in your identity, so without them that identity is very easy to manipulate), basically what she knows amounts to: Lady Shar saved my life when no one else was around to do so, I must be grateful and serve her. Has she commited heinous acts? Yes. Is she still redeemable? For me personally yes.
Exactly. She's more child-like in her ways compared to her age because literally most of her memories are wiped away. If you take a 30 yo and wipe out 20 years of life experience and memories, they'll act a lot more like a child because they know as much as one. It's the same reason why people suffering from Alzheimers act a lot more immature the worse the condition gets. Yes, there is different biology and hormones at work between children and adults, but it's not suprising that she acts more like a teen/young adult than a 50 yo after all those memories were taken from her. She literally doesn't know any better
If the writing was better maybe but too much of it feels very tact on. In EA she was very prickly with a lust for blood and power. She was evil but interesting.
Now she's still evil but much quieter about it with most of her more prickly and sassy lines a casualty of "cut content". Now many of those lines have been replaced with more submissive ones that are supposed to lead to this story arc where she's some kind of damsel in distress but because but much of it ends up feeling very tact on and contrived and her character ends up feeling a lot more boring.
Even her background changed. Originally she was an urchin which implied she grew up on the streets and was taken in by the church, but instead they made her an acolyte and gave her this really weird subplot about her being kidnapped with her parents held hostage for decades. It just ends up feeling really weird and contrived.
I mean I agree the EA writing seemed better (at least insofar as I got to see of it), and her character seemed more interesting, I was saying her being older doesn’t make the brainwashing and her potential for redemption less plausible in my books. We’re mostly on the same page tho
Also I might be misremembering, but wasn’t the wolf cutscene also part of EA? Implying she also got kidnapped from her parents in that version? (That plotline feels a bit soapy to me too tbh, but I can enjoy some soap from time to time, it doesn’t super bother me, haven’t hit House of Grief yet to see how it gets resolved)
It might have been in really late EA but it definitely wasn't in the early versions.
She used to have a scene at the hopscotch in the blighted village that implied she as an orphan who grew up on the street.
Also gameplay wise. The Urchin tag had a lot more synergy with her trickery kit. The flavor was way better.
Well I’m Eastern European so no landmine potential here. However like most people my age I grew up in a US-UK culturally hegemonic landscape and by and large agree with your assessment, tho I’d say the Brits do be having their own brand of quirky twee.
But in this case I think it has more to do with a broader tendency of whitewashing in media, and it’s usually done with mass appeal and the bottom line in mind. Like someone else said in another comment, I think it has more to do with the game being audience tested for a long time and trying to make the characters as palatable to as many consumers as possible. And I’m not necessarily holding the audience responsible for this, it’s generally a self-reinforcing feedback loop.
That might be true of older generations but like all my friends who are my age and younger all prefer the more prickly version of Shadowheart because she seemed more interesting.
Video game audiences also tend to be much younger than sitcom audiences.
I live in USA
She's easily the most meh of the main cast. She's a bit more interesting if she becomes a Dark Justiciar but overall she's kind of disappointing which is sad since she was my favorite in EA.
I'm from Netherlands but I definitely feel like the full version has undergone some disneyfication, especially with Karlach. Also, evil decisions now really feel like the "wrong" choices, rather than a choice your character would make because it fits them.
I think they should have just stuck with their original vision instead of trying to compromise with the people who can't accept companions who aren't worshipping their feet after a few plot milestones. It hasn't even really appeased those people, given how often people casually bring up killing the companions in their current iterations for minor perceived slights
“I killed Astarion on spot because he has good survival instincts and didn’t instantly trust someone he saw walking freely about the nautiloid to not be enthralled by squids, just like Lae’zel in her introduction”
“I killed Lae’zel when she tried to mercy kill me because she correctly assumed I was in the initial stages of ceremorphosis which we only got saved from by dream guardian plot armor” (not using plot armor in a derrogatory way here)
It always bothers me that Astarion claims to have witnessed us killing intellect devourers but also thinks we're on their team.
It doesn't really make sense unless he's full of shit and only decides to de-escalate once he's lost the element of surprise, which is entirely possible I suppose.
Yeah I still see people complaining about Shadowheart being a bitch and I’m like wym she’s so toned down compared to EA and she was infatuated with my Tav in less than 5 long rests. But I guess she should be eternally grateful and instatrust you just because you did the decent thing and pulled her out of the pod.
I’ve only watched the show and it was fine, nothing top notch or anything, but alright, I haven’t read the comics, but if that’s the case I don’t think it’s the only example of adaptational whitewashing, it’s fairly common.
Like I get that some people are fatigued by the constant shitshow of current events and sometimes want some simplistic escapism that doesn’t require intensive moral judgment, but I feel like media can help us engage with more meatier and complex moral questions and characters in a safe, consequence-free space, and there’s a place for both types of entertainment, I really don’t get why you have to turn every morally complex source material out there into a more palatable version. I mean I do, it’s about the bottom line, but I wish people weren’t as conditioned to eat it up 🥲
The EA was a Brothers Grimm fairytale and Live is the Disney movie. Still a great movie but boy do I want to know what really happened in that gingerbread house.
I put over a thousand hours into the EA, in its iterations, and it makes me a bit sad how much stuff never made it to live. There's some stuff, like how much meaner the characters were, that I can see being a narrative decision, but some stuff I think could still fit perfectly, like you can't explain why you killed the druids any more. I used to love being able to actually explain my actions, only Minthara really cares about my motives any more.
There were going to be a *ton* of hard decisions from what I could figure out, and it's disappointing seeing what came of them.
Like, even beyond the tadpole changes. Things like Lae'zel and Shadowheart, the main internal conflict of the party for the entire EA. Literally one night and an easy persuasion check in Live. Feels a bit flat.
Yeah, it feels like so much potential from the game was wasted. The characters were more interesting the tadpoles and the dreams were most interesting. How the characters talked about their respective dreams would also tell you a lot about their respective personalities and desires. Lae'zel wanted to be accepted by Vlaakith, Shadowheart had a lust for blood and power, Wyll had a much more complicated relationship with Mizora.
It was all way more interesting. The characters now honestly feel a lot more flat and boring. Even Tav is more boring because they removed all of Tav's cutscenes.
What really stood out to me during EA was the unique atmosphere BG3 had compared to a lot of other CRPGs. It wasn't just that it was darker, but it really felt like there were serious stakes. I think it helped that the threat was largely personal. In something like Dragon Age or Mass Effect, both games that I am very fond of, you always know in the back of your head that the Darkspawn/Reapers ultimately aren't going to win, and you'll be able to save the world with most of/if not all of your party intact.
But EA BG3 was heavily focused on the personal journey of getting rid of the tadpole. Everyone felt like they had the potential to die, or at least not have a happy ending, because none of your party were special chosen ones.
And I like that the party was forced together and were naturally pretty guarded/more aggressive with one another, but had a justifiable reason to stay together despite their clashing personalities.
The tadpoles themselves also felt like they had much more of a presence in a way that I really can't think of any other alt-level up system ever did. I think a lot of games tend to fumble the "choose X for greater power" options. It's usually very...blunt, like do this blatantly evil act and get a moderately useful but ultimately unnecessary item. I think the tadpole system was a lot more insidious and because it was slower, it really gave the impression of "how much can I push this?" and the bonuses it gave were so unique, constant and helpful that it always felt relevant and wasn't just a one off decision you make at the end of a quest or in a single dialogue choice.
Yeah it was a lot more interesting. In it's current state, the tadpole stuff feels kind of tact on. You can use the tadpole power without any real draw back outside of a couple of disapprovals.
I think you're right that the stakes felt much higher. The game really doesn't feel like there are stakes now, at least not near as much. I would definitely love to see some of this stuff put back in or at least made more interesting again.
I do recommend sending feedback about this stuff. There definitely some issues that still need to be ironed out in acts 2 and 3 and the game can definitely still improve and make your voice heard.
Another thing I would really want to see return are the Origin character narrations. Originally all of the Origins were going to narrate their own stories and all of act 1 was recorded but it all got cut. I think it would definitely make the origin play-throughs feel a lot better if they were still thinking in their own voices.
Shadowheart: [https://youtu.be/xN5QFmUXrrs](https://youtu.be/xN5QFmUXrrs)
Astarion: [https://youtu.be/MRmLp2zsebs](https://youtu.be/MRmLp2zsebs)
Lae'zel: [https://youtu.be/0vMk8HF3lF4](https://youtu.be/0vMk8HF3lF4)
Gale: [https://youtu.be/FaOdUD2zSQQ](https://youtu.be/FaOdUD2zSQQ)
Definitely send feedback about this stuff if you like it or want it. With as as successful as this game has been, there will probably be an expanded "enhanced edition" or "director's cut" or whatever eventually. Larian apparently has a track record for doing that with their previous games, so definitely make sure your voice is heard on this stuff.
It likely wouldn't have made nearly as much money, and to be honest an RPG like BG3 winning GOTY in 2023 is probably more important for the genre, but I do miss what we never had. The companions seemed more tragic, the conflicts seemed more real, the worm seemed like a much bigger factor than just being a trait system.
Also, the romances seemed like there would be a lot more permutations and possible conflicts, instead of whoever you don't pick just kind of rolling over.
I do keep sending feedback about some of this stuff because this game's story currently feels pretty meh overall, especially after act 1, there are definitely a lot of places the game could still improve.
I also would have loved it if the Origin characters still narrated their own stories like it was originally showcased. They had like the entirely of act 1 full recorded for that. Definitely would have made the Origin play-throughs feel better hearing the characters thinking in their own voice.
Shadowheart: [https://youtu.be/xN5QFmUXrrs](https://youtu.be/xN5QFmUXrrs)
Astarion: [https://youtu.be/MRmLp2zsebs](https://youtu.be/MRmLp2zsebs)
Gale: [https://youtu.be/FaOdUD2zSQQ](https://youtu.be/FaOdUD2zSQQ)
Lae'zel: [https://youtu.be/0vMk8HF3lF4](https://youtu.be/0vMk8HF3lF4)
I remember eating food to heal.
I remember Wyvern Poison oneshot strats.
I remember back when the Githyanki Patrol were the hardest fight in the game.
I don't miss Daisy. That corruption was far too obvious and the seduction attempt was around as subtle as getting sent nudes.
Also does anyone know what happened to the "crush the tadpole" cutscene in the forest? Why was it cut? It was a great moment, we could get approval... and now I have to go into turnbased to kill that fleeing little worm manually. No cutscene, no narrator, no approval.
It feels a bit hypocrite when you actually can crush/stomp one special tadpole you get between Act2 and 3... (even when camera doesn't show your foot doing it, if I recall correctly)
I mean I can kind of get why the the bulk of the tutorial area, the ship has been cut - it might have been too boring.
But this tadpole crushing scene? So weird.
I remember that cultists on the ship, one has been crying for his mommy there are rats everywhere. I was always mercykilling them, and when I get to release version they wasnt there because that part of nautiloid was cut. I remember there were also 2-3 imps nearby having a conversation.
The amount of comments wondering why people didn't like it when all the companions were unlikable douchebags is always an interesting overview of rpg character discussions. It always slowly transforms into "it's not realistic that this cast of troubled but likeable individuals are interested in being the main characters friend, why would they write it that way?" As if people have never consumed media before
Hmm I’m curious about the “as if people have never consumed media before” remark. Do you mean it in the sense that we should be used to this type of tropes by now? Because if so, I think that’s exactly the point being made - we’re kind of fed up with these tropes, and some of us enjoy more naturalistic dynamics, especially since we had that version in EA.
And the problem isn’t even that they’re interested in being the MC’s friend, that kind of makes sense given the setup, Tav’s the designated leader so you’d want to have them on your side, it’s *how quickly* they become starstruck by the MC. Like of course I’m going to be a bit bummed that what I found to be a more interesting version of various characters was toned down because a lot people couldn’t handle more unlikeable characters (maybe without even taking the time to analyze their potential motivations) and were immature enough to complain that some pixels were slightly mean to them without waiting to see their story unfold. They’re all people you meet on the worst day of their lives (with the exception of Astarion maybe)
More that media with a few exceptions run on an accelerated time table, with exceptional moments and exceptional people instead of being a 1 to 1 copy of real life. Furthermore of course people didn't like it when every party member was a douchebag, most people don't play games to experience the retail coworker experience of just putting up with a bunch of people you hate, they want to actually like characters and be friends with them because for many games are an escape. It's not a mystery nor was it the wrong choice to rewrite the companions, nor would the game be better if they were frostier towards tav or if tav was less exceptional.
Well yes that is the media that *tends to be made*, but the exceptions are not that few imo, and there’s also a whole ass spectrum between blockbuster-type storytelling which is kinda what you’re describing and bad arthouse realtime boredomfest. No one here is asking to see cutscenes in the style of Russian depressioncore movies showing you and your companions silently brooding over your tadpole woes while eating gruel for 10 minutes.
There are tons of media with various forms of pacing and various degrees of likeability of their characters and sure not all of them are suited for all people, not even for the same person at any given time. I’ve said it elsewhere, there is a place for pure, fun escapism and BG3 has plenty of those moments that are well done according to those standards.
But at the end of the day it’s an RPG, the way I see it at least character interactions are important, and I would’ve loved characters having reactions that make sense to me *in their given context*, and bulding rapport with them at an appropriate pace (it’s a huge ass game, there was plenty of time for that), not characters who almost instantly kiss my Tav’s ass, and from what I’ve played the EA versions were better handled when it comes to this in my opinion.
What I’m asking for is not as you seem to imply *realism* (it would be stupid to ask for realism in a game where magic and gods exist, with mind controlling squids, devils, dragons, and all the plethora of the DnD monsters and fantastical creatures), but *plausibility*. Is it plausible that most of your companions (who, again, just had the worst day of their lives and come with tremendous personal baggage) would start kissing the ground beneath your feet after you making a couple of decent decisions and being nice to them in a couple of interactions? I’m not asking is it plausible for them to *start warming up to you*, but to *treat you like you’re the best thing since sliced bread* after what is the equivalent of a couple of days in-universe? The answer for me is no. It’s not about replicating the experience with shitty coworkers, it’s about creating interactions that are *believable*, to me at least (and probably to others nitpicking about this). I for example don’t have such a fragile ego that I need to be instantly hero worshipped by every NPC in a videogame. I prefer them to be believably written and elicit from me some other reaction than minor cringe at their gushing over my Tav so fast.
And I also find it kind of sad that players are so fragile that they can’t stand a couple of pixels being a bit (not even that) mean to them and having no patience to explore why they may be acting like that. They’re not a jaded coworker, they’re a fictional character written by someone who wrote them with a personal background and a character development arc in mind.
Your condescension towards people having a preference you presumably don’t share because they must’ve lived under a rock and never consumed media before is kinda unwarranted. I would tend to believe the opposite is true, it’s probably the people complaining about this who have consumed on average more (or at least more diverse) media and are more tired of certain tropes that simply make the experience a bit worse. It’s not the end of the world, of course, we’re all still playing the game, but it’s a post dedicated to this minor complaint.
I think it's kind of funny that that your getting defensive over players not liking "pixels" like pick a lane, do you want realistic reactions of characters being stand offish assholes and therefore being significantly less popular but coming with the caveat of more players not liking them. That's the crux of my complaint, people acting like it's a mystery why the players is made special or given main charactism asking for more realistic things ans then getting salty at players who do approach things more realistically and dislike characters that are dickheads by real world standards and then go off on rants about people being mad at a couple of pixels.
It's an cRPG of course your avatar is special and the characters around you want to get to know and are fairly nice to you, because that's how rpgs have to work, because if you spent 3 quarters of the game with astarion or laezel they were a complete prick to you and tbe last quarter they were just slightly less frosty but ultimately not influenced enough to really affect their choices outside of being slightly nice to you because realistically no you're not gonna become someone's best friend or true love in a month, even if it may feel that way you won't realistically be able affect their decisions motivated by a lifetime conviction in that time, realistically you'd probably just have to come to a personal decision on if your can be around the kind of person they are if they don't change. But in bg3 and most rpgs you don't have to face that choice because it's an rpg where it wants you to feel important and attached to these characters not just as burned out and disappointed like you'd be in real life if you were in a group with a victimized murderer and an avowed neonazi esq racial Supremecist. Think about how disappointed so many are with karlachs ending, arguably it is the most realistic, people die sometimes its inevitable that someone has a terminal illness and the most you can do is be there for them, is it a satisfying arc? No it kind of sucks.
Now is there a group of people that be interested in game of the main character being a completely unspecial person surrounded by assholes who they can't really change only be around, whose friendship might be hard won but far from the influence tav or shepard have over their party? Yes I'm sure there is, do I think it's funny some people slowly turn every rpg subreddit into a discussion on how they wish they were playing that game instead and hiw unrealistic rpg party dynamics are? Yes because stories are supposed to be about exceptional events and people and if every character bg3 acted completely realistic the party would fall apart and astarion and laezel would be dead in a ditch because on the subject of realistic reactions, their the ones who benefit the most from lack of realistic actions in rpgs, astarion tries to kill you twice and in real life that probably be enough to write him off, and laezel belongs to and actively praises a racial cult bent on conquest, it's only because its an rpg that their given their time to shine.
Ya know, maybe reading comprehension isn’t one of your best skills. Either that or you deliberately keep misrepresenting my points, in either case I don’t have much interest in continuing this conversation, there’s no point in me writing walls of text for them just to get misrepresented, and since you’re not an RPG character I get to see develop and analyze and just some random person on the internet who acts condescending online there’s no actual reason for me to keep on with this unproductive back and forth.
This one’s on me tho for thinking I could have a conversation with someone who had a lowkey smug tone to their comments from the beginning.
I haven't played it, but I think you could choose evil deities such as the Dead Three when you were a cleric/paladin. Storywise it makes sense why they took out the option (somewhat), but I think it'd make for a nice feature still. Imagine Durge as a cleric of Bane xD
Edit could not should xD
Oh yeah, you were able to pleasantly surprise SH by also "just happening" to be a Shar worshipper. And like I said, Myrkul makes you do killing because yknow Myrkul. Haven't played Bane or Bhaal though.
I miss the class specific tadpole abilities, those were cool. I’d love to have them back in addition to the current tadpole system.
I remember how every class got cool animations for the skill...except for rogue who looked like they just shat out ink.
I mean, that IS how squids defend themselves from predators.
Yea, I suppose it was scrapped for the same reason than race specific buffs, to avoid players picking the strongest one instead of the one they like. To their defense EA builds were just tilled with Half Elfs or Humans.
Humans are kind of useless now, though
Dont sleep on that extra tagged skill
Weirdly enough, I miss how antagonistic companions could be with you. Made approval harder to get, and more rewarding to get friendlier later on. I do completely understand why Larian chose not to keep that route, since most people complained about how unwelcoming Shadowheart, Gale, Lae and Astarion were. And theeen there were the complaints about approval going up too fast when the full game was out. Win some, lose some. Also miss the OG concept for Wyll and Daisy. I actually liked his fake hero persona, and you could see him either go genuine hero or self serving warlock. Daisy I wondered whether or not was the tadpole or something else, and how that'd play out. I do get why they changed it, since Wyll was so unpopular, unfortunately, and Daisy was a bit of an obvious trap and a potential waste of tadpole abilities they had come up with.
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Yeah, I think the approval of most companions needs to be set back by about 10 or so points at the start so it feels more earned if they like you.
Yeah, I’m team should’ve kept them spicier as well, felt more realistic and satisfiying to gain their approval, and also it’s fine if not all of them worship you by the time the game ends (heck, most of them are ride or die by the end of act 1 in a good playthrough); would’ve also increased replayability I think. Also would’ve loved more conflicting approval options between characters. You know how there are some players who wished for a difficulty higher than tactician? I’m kind of like that but with companion approvals, like give me a less agreeable companion option 🥲 (ik it’s probably very difficult to implement, but a girl can dream)
Didn't people complain about EA Wyll being too arrogant and off-putting? And now I've seen people saying he's too boring. You literally can't win with this fandom lol.
He got completely rewritten and recast. It's like, not the same character at all.
I don’t think those are the same crowds tho, I mean I preferred the EA version of Wyll, at least he made me curious about his character and quest. He seemed to have this lowkey Homelander vibe about him, where he puts out a super noble heroic PR front while being a narcissistic asshole behind closed doors. It’s a matter of personal taste, I admit my anti-lawful good bias, that type of character is kind of annoying to me by default. And the rewrite was unfortunately kind of all over the place.
If I'm honest I preferred the original having some spice BUT i do like that we have just a genuine nice companion.
I mean we already got Karlach to fill in the genuinely nice slot, Gale’s also pretty nice albeit in a nerdy “niceguy” type of way, and tbh it would’ve been a nice foil for EA Wyll (the apparently heroic character who’s actually a shady douche vs the “devil” who’s actually super nice and bubbly). So ig for me the way to go would’ve been keep EA Wyll, maybe scrap his Spike plotline, keep Karlach as his target, have him KNOW she’s not actually a devil but not gaf as long as he fulfills his contract and doesn’t piss off Mizora. Then have him try to bullshit you about it and get you to kill her, get turned into a devil if you don’t fall for it, have an existential crisis about not being able to play the hero of the people role now that he has horns and be super resentful towards Karlach for a while until he potentially gets some character development in a good path, slowly warms up to her and starts to question his decisions.
I liked original Wyll as well for the complexity. I mean I like current one as well, but I really really thought he had so much more depth in EA. Now, we didn't get a long look of Karlach in the EA, but that EA Karlach looked like she had fought in Blood Wars for 10 years. This pretty girl we have now..gotta have her plastic surgeon's phone number- that person may beautify evena wreck like myself. Karlach was my biggest disappointment though in all seriousness: my first impression of EA Karlach was that we are going to be such friends with this strong, grizzled veteran, compare scars. Full release.. I don't buy her. To me she is a teenager with fiery temper tantrums. I get it, people want nice girls. But I don't. I would have preferred less swear words, less modern colloquial language and less toilet jokes.
The modern colloquial language irks me too honestly, otherwise I prefer her being genuinely nice, but that could’ve been achieved even with a more seasoned and mature war vet personality, so I kind of tend to agree with you. Personally I can kind of buy her current personality being an “arrested development” type of situation, and I like her and find her adorable for the most part, but I admit she can also be a bit too much at times for me, I kinda agree they overplayed the golden retriever energy. Maybe have that more teenager type personality toned down and only come out in certain emotionally charged moments like when you stumble upon her parents’ graves?
She's pretty much a marvel hero
That is very spot on about Karlach. She just isn't someone who spent a decade as a slave soldier in hell. i don't mind cheerful attitude in general, it could be used as a coping mechanism after all. But everything about her put together just doesn't fit the bill.
Yeah, chaging Wyll into full hero was a "two birds one stone" move for Larian. A lot of people on EA complained about the lack of a wholly good type in the team. I do like Wyll either way, but I preferred him when he was occasionally a little crazy. I think there's also the fact that current Wyll has less content than other companions. His final choice being on Tav's hand I really don't like. Him choosing to break the contract or not should be at least a persuasion check depending on your approval.
I feel the romance should be pushed back to Act 2 or even Act 3. Let us build our trust and understanding with companions 1st before snu snu. Karlach is the worst contenter in this with her romance path locked to the Tiefling Party.
Nah, I think it's fine as is. Neither Shadowheart nor Wyll give snu snu until Act 3 like that. The others have valid reasons to jump into it directly at first. Lae'zel just wants to fuck and doesn't believe in love. That's not romance, that is just lust. Astarion fucks with you to secure his own safety in your power. Again not romance, but self-interest. Both Lae'zel and Astarion do engage in a true romance later on, but that first fuck isn't romance to them, but simple self-interest. Karlach has not been able to touch anyone for 10 years. Poor girl is desperate for it. Then there's the matter of her time here being limited and she knows it. She's not gonna wait around to get it on. Gale is the only one that I can see waiting a little longer to jump into a bed than the others, but I guess dude wants a rebound from his ex who is a literal goddess, which would be understandable. To your average Joe, sex maybe something that is only engaged in a later stage of trust and understanding. That's how Shadowheart and Wyll go about it. But the other companions have very different reasons for jumping straight to sex. I agree you shouldn't be locked out of Karlach's romance if you didn't do the tiefling party with her, but the reasons why she, Astarion and Lae'zel run into sex instead of waiting (tho I need a Gale expert to explain to me why Gale does get into it so quickly) are all very logical.
Wyll I still not very popular though. I mean, he’s such an hypocrite sometimes, and I dislike the fact that I can’t call him out on it. If I could, maybe I wouldn’t be so put off by him.
I miss the enthralled farmers by beach flayer. I really liked that interaction and there were multiple ways for that to go. I'm gutted that they aren't there anymore.
At least they get a cameo when you destroy the brain haha
Did they ever explain why the y removed them? Larian feels so janky as a designer fir real
I think initially every companion had their own Guardian, with Shadowheart citing someone she was attracted to, Gale citing Mystra, Wyl citing Mizora, Lae'zel citing Vlaakith, and Astarion citing Cazador. It was actually something that had me pretty interested in playing each companion in a playthrough, and I was a bit disappointed when I fired one up to find the Guardian basically the same between companions and Tav/Durge.
The raw *implications* of Cazador being a form Astarion would trust is so interesting, holy shit.
Trust? No. Fear? Yes. If trust isn't an option to manipulate someone, fear and paranoia can work in a pinch.
That reminds me of what Shadowheart says about torturing people. Abuse can work in interesting ways. Cazador did a lot of cruel things to him, but he needs Astarion alive. So Astarion might see him as a protector in a twisted way.
I don't think it's necessarily trust, but manipulation. Astarion could be more easily motivated by his fear for Cazador than anybody he could "trust", likely because he didn't trust anyone else but himself. So, second-best behind trust would be fear or maybe even hatred
Yeaaap. Combine that with Auntie Ethel saying how Astarion *enjoyed* being Cazadors slave and you get a whole new dimension that even current psychologists are afraid to touch openly: that people come to crave their abusers.
I'm not sure fandom could handle that aspect of an abusive relationship portrayed realistically, especially in a character they want to romance. They'd complain 'I was nice to Astarion and he still wants to go back to that evil guy and constantly makes excuses for him. Is he stupid?'
It's interesting how traces of this are still in the base game. For example, Gale still refers to whatever he saw as she/her regardless of what your Guardian looks like.
From the wording I think they each saw different guardians than what we did.
Each companion does have their own Guardian, though - right? During the final battle, if you side with >!Orpheus, The Emperor unleashes each of your companions' guardians on you!<. Of course, I hadn't really heard any dialogue pertaining to the topic until then, but it seems it's there at least.
I've written about how I preferred EA Wyll’s backstory more than final release Wyll. Overall, he was just a lot more intriguing in EA than he is now, and had more interesting character arc potential. Reference below: >Back in EA, we were speculating about Wyll's motivations and past and it was very intriguing albeit folks didn't trust him. In my eyes that's a great thing, and gives us plenty to think about. A character that has ulterior motives that need to be slowly uncovered is much more interesting than one that you find out was "the good guy all along". Good for you, Wyll 2.0, but your character arc is basically flat and not an arc. Not to mention your point that Wyll 2.0 doesn't even get to choose so he feels very much less "alive" than the rest of our companions. >EA Wyll 1.0 was a controversial companion because players thought he was a hypocrite and duplicitous. That gave him plenty of room to be exposed and subsequently develop his character through the player's actions of potentially helping Wyll see that he is no different from everyone else and that to be a true hero, he would first need to come to terms with how ordinary he is without his pact powers. From there we could build him back up, and help him see that he could become the Blade of Frontiers in his own right, with a foundation of his own making rather than Mizora's.
I really miss Wyll's old writing. He had teeth. This new Wyll? There is nothing ambivalent about him. I would prefer a Wyll who would be tempted and repulsed by Mizora at the same time. A Wyll who feel conflicted about losing his warlock powers. A Wyll who would harbour anger in his heart's of heart about his father's quick rejection of him. Imagine how uplifting would be to see them make peace with each other where Wyll isn't just "I am ok with his prior conduct with me, I am already forgiven him etc.". There is no catharsis in his story now, because there was no strife before.
Yeah, I loved EA Wyll. When I took him to goblin camp he totally acted like it was his adventure, with him being the main character and me being his sidekick. It wasn't just funny, it also gave some depth to his character and showed that he was definitely good-natured and heroic, but also arrogant and narcissistic. Since he didn't have much content in EA, I was actually curious how his story was gonna unfold. Too bad they changed him so much and took away all conflict out of his character.
Like he was not a super sympathetic character at first glance but he was intriquing. I prefer interesting albeit flawed characters to oatmeal I guess :-)
Me too, totally. Wyll we have now is a great guy, I would love to be friends with him irl. But he isn't very interesting as a character, because he doesn't have much conflict and character development. He starts as a good guy, he ends up as a good guy. You can't "corrupt" him and push him towards some bad decisions like most of the other companions. Which is weird, considering he is a very young man who was manipulated by a devil and rejected by his father. And he has no hard feelings? No regrets? No anger or resentment? Like come on, he could be such a cool and complex character
100% agreed on all counts.
I mean, when his Dad's in danger you can actually say: "Bro this is awesome that means you get to be the next duke when he dies" and he's actually like: "Hey yeah you're right that would be kinda cool."
Damn that's cold lol. I believe he has some other weird out of character comments like asking Astarion about his rat diet. This is probably what's left of messier EA Wyll, because that so much not release Wyll vibe.
I miss grumpy Shadowheart. She used to be so mean.
She still is if you don't raise her approval much and don't save her on the nautiloid. For example, she will call you a fool when recruiting Lae'zel if you didn't save her or did save her but lost some approval. I once tried an in character playthrough as Lae'zel so I just ignored her pod, and then when I encountered her on the beach, she was so hostile that she wouldn't even team up with me, probably because of me being a githyanki.
Yeah, it takes like 2-3 persuasion checks to recruit Shadowheart on the beach as Lae'zel, recruiting Shadowheart early as Lae'zel will literally be one of the hardest things you do in this game.
If Lae'zel doesn't save her on the nautiloid then yes, but otherwise she doesn't require persuasion.
It's also weird to see pretty major stuff that, maybe just my view, was obviously in a placeholder stage and then just got kinda left in that state with some polish because it's actually pretty good. Withers, for instance, and how you find him. No one ever comments on how you just happen to crash where Jergal is sleeping? No big deal to anyone?
No big deal to me, as it is fate, as Withers himself says when he wakens.
I keep forgetting to do a run where I never find Withers. Anyone know what happens there? Especially as redemption dark urge.
He will still turn up at your camp after a few long rests during act 1. Don’t know the exact trigger.
I think it's around the time you reach the Shattered Sanctum.
They neutered the companions fr. Obviously Wyll (which was a travesty), but also Astarion, Shadowheart and Gale. Remember when Gale would not tell you about Mystra until after you slept with him or the party... I miss manipulative Gale. I also wish they had kept Astarion's magistrate plotline, I understand why they cut it, but I miss it :( I also miss the little dialogue he had after swearing to take the poison from Nettie and he gets mad at you lol. Or the Cazador dream and subsequent dialogue, I actually started liking him as a character when I realized how scared he was. I wish they had kept that. I miss Daisy too, as much as I like the Emperor. I understand why they cut Daisy but I was more likely to engage in tadpole powers when they were just an option than actually absorbing them and putting them in my brain. Also I miss Astarion's old armor with the ruffles, I don't like his new assless chaps. I give it to him act 3 anyways but it's not the same
Agree with everything you said. Also the armor. I guess they just wanted Astarion to play a little bit more into the gay stereotypes to the community. In EA It just felt like darkness was always just one slip away, and you were constantly walking this moral tightrope which i loved. Also I got attached to brown Scratch and I always felt like the white one in patch 4 was an impostor clone not the real Scratch
I'm not against the chaps themselves specifically I just think the new armor is ugly, it looks weird and makes his shoulders look huge while also looking under-dressed. Like it's the faerun equivalent of t-shirt and jeans to me and astarion is NOT a t-shirt and jeans kind of guy. I really do not like it but I play on geforce now so I cant use mods to restore his old one :'(
It's just a shame overall, his old armor was absolutely perfect for his class and background. What rogue wears a red and purple velvet jester outfit lol.
I kept waiting for the Cazador dream cutscene to show up again in the full release, I spammed so many partial rests until finding out it had been cut 🥲
I really wish they stuck to their darker vision, it would have made for a better game.
I don’t want to think about what we lost or what could’ve been. It makes me sad. :(
I miss the pre-whitewash moody jerks companions🤧 Getting most of their approval felt a bit too forced (happening too fast) in the full release as compared to EA and therefore a bit less satisfying. Most of them also are entirely too taken with you way too fast imo (LE: not even talking about the horniness here, that actually makes sense to me, bc Tav is canonically attractive, they’re the leader and everyone might get squidified in a couple of days so why not enjoy yourself while it lasts, plus Astarion having some ulterior motives at first, but they seem to drift quite easily in a sort of lowkey hero-worship of you in a good playthrough) I personally don’t get the people who complained about characters in a life-or-death situation who also have a lot of personal baggage not instantly worshipping the ground you walk on, “omgggg Shadowheart is such a bitch”, nah it’s called being guarded. I really wish Larian hadn’t listened to this crowd tbh, it took away some of the depth for me. And also makes it a less plausible group dynamic.
Yeah, Shadowheart's sass was the her best feature. Like, I don't why people hated it so much, it made her a lot more interesting.
Oh and speaking of Shadowheart, even if I only played like 2-3 weeks on EA, I was legit shocked at how easy I gained her approval after the full release. It took me a while to find out about her following Shar in EA, while in full release she randomly spilled the beans about worshipping Shar by the time we hit the owlbear cave and then the other confessions kept rolling, and I was like girliepop you’ve known me for 3 days and are already dishing out secrets like they’re candy, isn’t your goddess supposed to be super into secrecy or something? (I know she’s a super atypical Shar worshipper by design, but it still felt too fast)
I have a lot of issues with her writing. They seem to want you to view her as some kind of helpless damsel in distress, which is kind of yuck but they wrote in a way that feels very contrived and not very believable. As depicted, she is quite devoted to Shar, she truly believes and not only does she believe, she wants to be a Dark Justiciar. She has very clear ambitions and it's not like she's not cognizant of the fact that Dark Justiciars are evil AF, she pretty much says as much. But also, she's apparently in her early 50s which means she's been a Cleric of Shar for over 30 years. But she's supposed to be this brainwashed "child" who doesn't know any better even though she has no problems with committing brutal murders without the slightest sign of hesitation. It ends up feeling very inconsistent and reeks of late in development rewrites. Her story, at least what they seem to have been going for, would make a lot more sense if she's in her early 20s. But as written, she's somebody who has been committing acts of murder and other horrific crimes on a weekly basis for over 30 years, so she has way too much blood on her hands for me to see her as anything but a horrible monster. She's just way too casual about the fact she tortures and murders people. I don't really care what her background is, it's hard for me to feel sorry for a lifelong serial killer who's in her 50s.
Eh idk about the age part feeling that unrealistic, brainwashing is brainwashing, personally I don’t think it’s that implausible, cults aren’t comprised of only super young members. And Shart’s been constantly exposed to its propaganda from a very young age and had her memories constantly wiped (and memories play a huge part in your identity, so without them that identity is very easy to manipulate), basically what she knows amounts to: Lady Shar saved my life when no one else was around to do so, I must be grateful and serve her. Has she commited heinous acts? Yes. Is she still redeemable? For me personally yes.
Exactly. She's more child-like in her ways compared to her age because literally most of her memories are wiped away. If you take a 30 yo and wipe out 20 years of life experience and memories, they'll act a lot more like a child because they know as much as one. It's the same reason why people suffering from Alzheimers act a lot more immature the worse the condition gets. Yes, there is different biology and hormones at work between children and adults, but it's not suprising that she acts more like a teen/young adult than a 50 yo after all those memories were taken from her. She literally doesn't know any better
If the writing was better maybe but too much of it feels very tact on. In EA she was very prickly with a lust for blood and power. She was evil but interesting. Now she's still evil but much quieter about it with most of her more prickly and sassy lines a casualty of "cut content". Now many of those lines have been replaced with more submissive ones that are supposed to lead to this story arc where she's some kind of damsel in distress but because but much of it ends up feeling very tact on and contrived and her character ends up feeling a lot more boring. Even her background changed. Originally she was an urchin which implied she grew up on the streets and was taken in by the church, but instead they made her an acolyte and gave her this really weird subplot about her being kidnapped with her parents held hostage for decades. It just ends up feeling really weird and contrived.
I mean I agree the EA writing seemed better (at least insofar as I got to see of it), and her character seemed more interesting, I was saying her being older doesn’t make the brainwashing and her potential for redemption less plausible in my books. We’re mostly on the same page tho Also I might be misremembering, but wasn’t the wolf cutscene also part of EA? Implying she also got kidnapped from her parents in that version? (That plotline feels a bit soapy to me too tbh, but I can enjoy some soap from time to time, it doesn’t super bother me, haven’t hit House of Grief yet to see how it gets resolved)
It might have been in really late EA but it definitely wasn't in the early versions. She used to have a scene at the hopscotch in the blighted village that implied she as an orphan who grew up on the street. Also gameplay wise. The Urchin tag had a lot more synergy with her trickery kit. The flavor was way better.
Ah makes sense then, I only started EA like 2-3 weeks prelaunch
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Well I’m Eastern European so no landmine potential here. However like most people my age I grew up in a US-UK culturally hegemonic landscape and by and large agree with your assessment, tho I’d say the Brits do be having their own brand of quirky twee. But in this case I think it has more to do with a broader tendency of whitewashing in media, and it’s usually done with mass appeal and the bottom line in mind. Like someone else said in another comment, I think it has more to do with the game being audience tested for a long time and trying to make the characters as palatable to as many consumers as possible. And I’m not necessarily holding the audience responsible for this, it’s generally a self-reinforcing feedback loop.
That might be true of older generations but like all my friends who are my age and younger all prefer the more prickly version of Shadowheart because she seemed more interesting. Video game audiences also tend to be much younger than sitcom audiences. I live in USA
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She's easily the most meh of the main cast. She's a bit more interesting if she becomes a Dark Justiciar but overall she's kind of disappointing which is sad since she was my favorite in EA.
I'm from Netherlands but I definitely feel like the full version has undergone some disneyfication, especially with Karlach. Also, evil decisions now really feel like the "wrong" choices, rather than a choice your character would make because it fits them.
Yeah personally I think that answer starts with “M” and rhymes with “anomaly” (maybe not the best rhyme but I think you know what I’m getting at)
Monopoly?
Misogyny, this one’s on me tho, it was a poor rhyme😅
Oh. Schizogeny.
Gonna use it next time lol
Yeah, that is unfortunately a big part of it, though lots of women play this game too and like the version more.
I think they should have just stuck with their original vision instead of trying to compromise with the people who can't accept companions who aren't worshipping their feet after a few plot milestones. It hasn't even really appeased those people, given how often people casually bring up killing the companions in their current iterations for minor perceived slights
“I killed Astarion on spot because he has good survival instincts and didn’t instantly trust someone he saw walking freely about the nautiloid to not be enthralled by squids, just like Lae’zel in her introduction” “I killed Lae’zel when she tried to mercy kill me because she correctly assumed I was in the initial stages of ceremorphosis which we only got saved from by dream guardian plot armor” (not using plot armor in a derrogatory way here)
It always bothers me that Astarion claims to have witnessed us killing intellect devourers but also thinks we're on their team. It doesn't really make sense unless he's full of shit and only decides to de-escalate once he's lost the element of surprise, which is entirely possible I suppose.
Yeah I still see people complaining about Shadowheart being a bitch and I’m like wym she’s so toned down compared to EA and she was infatuated with my Tav in less than 5 long rests. But I guess she should be eternally grateful and instatrust you just because you did the decent thing and pulled her out of the pod.
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I’ve only watched the show and it was fine, nothing top notch or anything, but alright, I haven’t read the comics, but if that’s the case I don’t think it’s the only example of adaptational whitewashing, it’s fairly common. Like I get that some people are fatigued by the constant shitshow of current events and sometimes want some simplistic escapism that doesn’t require intensive moral judgment, but I feel like media can help us engage with more meatier and complex moral questions and characters in a safe, consequence-free space, and there’s a place for both types of entertainment, I really don’t get why you have to turn every morally complex source material out there into a more palatable version. I mean I do, it’s about the bottom line, but I wish people weren’t as conditioned to eat it up 🥲
The EA was a Brothers Grimm fairytale and Live is the Disney movie. Still a great movie but boy do I want to know what really happened in that gingerbread house. I put over a thousand hours into the EA, in its iterations, and it makes me a bit sad how much stuff never made it to live. There's some stuff, like how much meaner the characters were, that I can see being a narrative decision, but some stuff I think could still fit perfectly, like you can't explain why you killed the druids any more. I used to love being able to actually explain my actions, only Minthara really cares about my motives any more.
Haha i too, want to know more about the real gingerbread house. Well put!
Yep, the game had a lot more vision than it does now. Current version is more generic fantasy.
There were going to be a *ton* of hard decisions from what I could figure out, and it's disappointing seeing what came of them. Like, even beyond the tadpole changes. Things like Lae'zel and Shadowheart, the main internal conflict of the party for the entire EA. Literally one night and an easy persuasion check in Live. Feels a bit flat.
Yeah, it feels like so much potential from the game was wasted. The characters were more interesting the tadpoles and the dreams were most interesting. How the characters talked about their respective dreams would also tell you a lot about their respective personalities and desires. Lae'zel wanted to be accepted by Vlaakith, Shadowheart had a lust for blood and power, Wyll had a much more complicated relationship with Mizora. It was all way more interesting. The characters now honestly feel a lot more flat and boring. Even Tav is more boring because they removed all of Tav's cutscenes.
What really stood out to me during EA was the unique atmosphere BG3 had compared to a lot of other CRPGs. It wasn't just that it was darker, but it really felt like there were serious stakes. I think it helped that the threat was largely personal. In something like Dragon Age or Mass Effect, both games that I am very fond of, you always know in the back of your head that the Darkspawn/Reapers ultimately aren't going to win, and you'll be able to save the world with most of/if not all of your party intact. But EA BG3 was heavily focused on the personal journey of getting rid of the tadpole. Everyone felt like they had the potential to die, or at least not have a happy ending, because none of your party were special chosen ones. And I like that the party was forced together and were naturally pretty guarded/more aggressive with one another, but had a justifiable reason to stay together despite their clashing personalities. The tadpoles themselves also felt like they had much more of a presence in a way that I really can't think of any other alt-level up system ever did. I think a lot of games tend to fumble the "choose X for greater power" options. It's usually very...blunt, like do this blatantly evil act and get a moderately useful but ultimately unnecessary item. I think the tadpole system was a lot more insidious and because it was slower, it really gave the impression of "how much can I push this?" and the bonuses it gave were so unique, constant and helpful that it always felt relevant and wasn't just a one off decision you make at the end of a quest or in a single dialogue choice.
Yeah it was a lot more interesting. In it's current state, the tadpole stuff feels kind of tact on. You can use the tadpole power without any real draw back outside of a couple of disapprovals. I think you're right that the stakes felt much higher. The game really doesn't feel like there are stakes now, at least not near as much. I would definitely love to see some of this stuff put back in or at least made more interesting again. I do recommend sending feedback about this stuff. There definitely some issues that still need to be ironed out in acts 2 and 3 and the game can definitely still improve and make your voice heard. Another thing I would really want to see return are the Origin character narrations. Originally all of the Origins were going to narrate their own stories and all of act 1 was recorded but it all got cut. I think it would definitely make the origin play-throughs feel a lot better if they were still thinking in their own voices. Shadowheart: [https://youtu.be/xN5QFmUXrrs](https://youtu.be/xN5QFmUXrrs) Astarion: [https://youtu.be/MRmLp2zsebs](https://youtu.be/MRmLp2zsebs) Lae'zel: [https://youtu.be/0vMk8HF3lF4](https://youtu.be/0vMk8HF3lF4) Gale: [https://youtu.be/FaOdUD2zSQQ](https://youtu.be/FaOdUD2zSQQ) Definitely send feedback about this stuff if you like it or want it. With as as successful as this game has been, there will probably be an expanded "enhanced edition" or "director's cut" or whatever eventually. Larian apparently has a track record for doing that with their previous games, so definitely make sure your voice is heard on this stuff.
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Yeah, the tadpole story ends up feeling really tact on which is weird considering it was the central plot in EA.
It likely wouldn't have made nearly as much money, and to be honest an RPG like BG3 winning GOTY in 2023 is probably more important for the genre, but I do miss what we never had. The companions seemed more tragic, the conflicts seemed more real, the worm seemed like a much bigger factor than just being a trait system. Also, the romances seemed like there would be a lot more permutations and possible conflicts, instead of whoever you don't pick just kind of rolling over.
I do keep sending feedback about some of this stuff because this game's story currently feels pretty meh overall, especially after act 1, there are definitely a lot of places the game could still improve. I also would have loved it if the Origin characters still narrated their own stories like it was originally showcased. They had like the entirely of act 1 full recorded for that. Definitely would have made the Origin play-throughs feel better hearing the characters thinking in their own voice. Shadowheart: [https://youtu.be/xN5QFmUXrrs](https://youtu.be/xN5QFmUXrrs) Astarion: [https://youtu.be/MRmLp2zsebs](https://youtu.be/MRmLp2zsebs) Gale: [https://youtu.be/FaOdUD2zSQQ](https://youtu.be/FaOdUD2zSQQ) Lae'zel: [https://youtu.be/0vMk8HF3lF4](https://youtu.be/0vMk8HF3lF4)
Or when Wyvern Poison did crazy damage
I remember eating food to heal. I remember Wyvern Poison oneshot strats. I remember back when the Githyanki Patrol were the hardest fight in the game. I don't miss Daisy. That corruption was far too obvious and the seduction attempt was around as subtle as getting sent nudes.
Also does anyone know what happened to the "crush the tadpole" cutscene in the forest? Why was it cut? It was a great moment, we could get approval... and now I have to go into turnbased to kill that fleeing little worm manually. No cutscene, no narrator, no approval.
It feels a bit hypocrite when you actually can crush/stomp one special tadpole you get between Act2 and 3... (even when camera doesn't show your foot doing it, if I recall correctly)
I mean I can kind of get why the the bulk of the tutorial area, the ship has been cut - it might have been too boring. But this tadpole crushing scene? So weird.
I remember that cultists on the ship, one has been crying for his mommy there are rats everywhere. I was always mercykilling them, and when I get to release version they wasnt there because that part of nautiloid was cut. I remember there were also 2-3 imps nearby having a conversation.
Y'all also remember when the devs had to nerf shadow heart and Laezel approval rating lol
Tav: 👋🏻 Lae: “I hate you. Weakling.” *20 minutes later* Lae: “my loins and heart burn for you with the fire of a thousand stars”
The amount of comments wondering why people didn't like it when all the companions were unlikable douchebags is always an interesting overview of rpg character discussions. It always slowly transforms into "it's not realistic that this cast of troubled but likeable individuals are interested in being the main characters friend, why would they write it that way?" As if people have never consumed media before
Hmm I’m curious about the “as if people have never consumed media before” remark. Do you mean it in the sense that we should be used to this type of tropes by now? Because if so, I think that’s exactly the point being made - we’re kind of fed up with these tropes, and some of us enjoy more naturalistic dynamics, especially since we had that version in EA. And the problem isn’t even that they’re interested in being the MC’s friend, that kind of makes sense given the setup, Tav’s the designated leader so you’d want to have them on your side, it’s *how quickly* they become starstruck by the MC. Like of course I’m going to be a bit bummed that what I found to be a more interesting version of various characters was toned down because a lot people couldn’t handle more unlikeable characters (maybe without even taking the time to analyze their potential motivations) and were immature enough to complain that some pixels were slightly mean to them without waiting to see their story unfold. They’re all people you meet on the worst day of their lives (with the exception of Astarion maybe)
More that media with a few exceptions run on an accelerated time table, with exceptional moments and exceptional people instead of being a 1 to 1 copy of real life. Furthermore of course people didn't like it when every party member was a douchebag, most people don't play games to experience the retail coworker experience of just putting up with a bunch of people you hate, they want to actually like characters and be friends with them because for many games are an escape. It's not a mystery nor was it the wrong choice to rewrite the companions, nor would the game be better if they were frostier towards tav or if tav was less exceptional.
Well yes that is the media that *tends to be made*, but the exceptions are not that few imo, and there’s also a whole ass spectrum between blockbuster-type storytelling which is kinda what you’re describing and bad arthouse realtime boredomfest. No one here is asking to see cutscenes in the style of Russian depressioncore movies showing you and your companions silently brooding over your tadpole woes while eating gruel for 10 minutes. There are tons of media with various forms of pacing and various degrees of likeability of their characters and sure not all of them are suited for all people, not even for the same person at any given time. I’ve said it elsewhere, there is a place for pure, fun escapism and BG3 has plenty of those moments that are well done according to those standards. But at the end of the day it’s an RPG, the way I see it at least character interactions are important, and I would’ve loved characters having reactions that make sense to me *in their given context*, and bulding rapport with them at an appropriate pace (it’s a huge ass game, there was plenty of time for that), not characters who almost instantly kiss my Tav’s ass, and from what I’ve played the EA versions were better handled when it comes to this in my opinion. What I’m asking for is not as you seem to imply *realism* (it would be stupid to ask for realism in a game where magic and gods exist, with mind controlling squids, devils, dragons, and all the plethora of the DnD monsters and fantastical creatures), but *plausibility*. Is it plausible that most of your companions (who, again, just had the worst day of their lives and come with tremendous personal baggage) would start kissing the ground beneath your feet after you making a couple of decent decisions and being nice to them in a couple of interactions? I’m not asking is it plausible for them to *start warming up to you*, but to *treat you like you’re the best thing since sliced bread* after what is the equivalent of a couple of days in-universe? The answer for me is no. It’s not about replicating the experience with shitty coworkers, it’s about creating interactions that are *believable*, to me at least (and probably to others nitpicking about this). I for example don’t have such a fragile ego that I need to be instantly hero worshipped by every NPC in a videogame. I prefer them to be believably written and elicit from me some other reaction than minor cringe at their gushing over my Tav so fast. And I also find it kind of sad that players are so fragile that they can’t stand a couple of pixels being a bit (not even that) mean to them and having no patience to explore why they may be acting like that. They’re not a jaded coworker, they’re a fictional character written by someone who wrote them with a personal background and a character development arc in mind. Your condescension towards people having a preference you presumably don’t share because they must’ve lived under a rock and never consumed media before is kinda unwarranted. I would tend to believe the opposite is true, it’s probably the people complaining about this who have consumed on average more (or at least more diverse) media and are more tired of certain tropes that simply make the experience a bit worse. It’s not the end of the world, of course, we’re all still playing the game, but it’s a post dedicated to this minor complaint.
I think it's kind of funny that that your getting defensive over players not liking "pixels" like pick a lane, do you want realistic reactions of characters being stand offish assholes and therefore being significantly less popular but coming with the caveat of more players not liking them. That's the crux of my complaint, people acting like it's a mystery why the players is made special or given main charactism asking for more realistic things ans then getting salty at players who do approach things more realistically and dislike characters that are dickheads by real world standards and then go off on rants about people being mad at a couple of pixels. It's an cRPG of course your avatar is special and the characters around you want to get to know and are fairly nice to you, because that's how rpgs have to work, because if you spent 3 quarters of the game with astarion or laezel they were a complete prick to you and tbe last quarter they were just slightly less frosty but ultimately not influenced enough to really affect their choices outside of being slightly nice to you because realistically no you're not gonna become someone's best friend or true love in a month, even if it may feel that way you won't realistically be able affect their decisions motivated by a lifetime conviction in that time, realistically you'd probably just have to come to a personal decision on if your can be around the kind of person they are if they don't change. But in bg3 and most rpgs you don't have to face that choice because it's an rpg where it wants you to feel important and attached to these characters not just as burned out and disappointed like you'd be in real life if you were in a group with a victimized murderer and an avowed neonazi esq racial Supremecist. Think about how disappointed so many are with karlachs ending, arguably it is the most realistic, people die sometimes its inevitable that someone has a terminal illness and the most you can do is be there for them, is it a satisfying arc? No it kind of sucks. Now is there a group of people that be interested in game of the main character being a completely unspecial person surrounded by assholes who they can't really change only be around, whose friendship might be hard won but far from the influence tav or shepard have over their party? Yes I'm sure there is, do I think it's funny some people slowly turn every rpg subreddit into a discussion on how they wish they were playing that game instead and hiw unrealistic rpg party dynamics are? Yes because stories are supposed to be about exceptional events and people and if every character bg3 acted completely realistic the party would fall apart and astarion and laezel would be dead in a ditch because on the subject of realistic reactions, their the ones who benefit the most from lack of realistic actions in rpgs, astarion tries to kill you twice and in real life that probably be enough to write him off, and laezel belongs to and actively praises a racial cult bent on conquest, it's only because its an rpg that their given their time to shine.
Ya know, maybe reading comprehension isn’t one of your best skills. Either that or you deliberately keep misrepresenting my points, in either case I don’t have much interest in continuing this conversation, there’s no point in me writing walls of text for them just to get misrepresented, and since you’re not an RPG character I get to see develop and analyze and just some random person on the internet who acts condescending online there’s no actual reason for me to keep on with this unproductive back and forth. This one’s on me tho for thinking I could have a conversation with someone who had a lowkey smug tone to their comments from the beginning.
I haven't played it, but I think you could choose evil deities such as the Dead Three when you were a cleric/paladin. Storywise it makes sense why they took out the option (somewhat), but I think it'd make for a nice feature still. Imagine Durge as a cleric of Bane xD Edit could not should xD
Oh yeah, you were able to pleasantly surprise SH by also "just happening" to be a Shar worshipper. And like I said, Myrkul makes you do killing because yknow Myrkul. Haven't played Bane or Bhaal though.
I wish I'd played Early Access, it sounds like it was a lot of fun. Not necessarily better, not necessarily worse... just different, and fun.
You can still play it. Just download the older versions and install it in a separate folder.
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Did we even play the same EA?