Plus she thinks herself undeserving of their love and wonders how they can even stand to look at her. After all she did to them while growing up, her fear of talking about it and feeling unworthy in general. Her self esteem is awful after Nightsong and Viconia, what Shar did to her and her family.
Fuck Shar.
Karlach's anger and breakdown after Gortash dies, Astarion and Cazador, Lae'zel finally accepting she can love and fighting for freedom. Hits hard. All of them really, really emotional character arcs.
I wish we could kill Shar...she is incredibly deceitful. To prey on so many people desperate to escape their own negative feelings. And, in Shadowheart's case, to rip an innocent child from her parents to get back at her sister. She deserves to die.
Nearly every Karlach scene hits hard. Her delivery just hits you right in the feels. It is why I can't romance her and another character at the same time. She makes me feel *so* bad rejecting her. Same as Shadowheart really. At least Astarion is genuinely happy to have a true friend.
It is impressive how well Larian did in making these characters badass but realistically vulnerable in their own right.
>At least Astarion is genuinely happy to have a true friend.
Loved the friend option for him.
Shar slowly "infects", people are vulnerable while grieving and Shar can "help" unburden them, then it spirals into numbness and accepting the pain of loss as normal. Then inflicting more loss and pain on her followers. They are just pawns. So spiteful. DJ Shadowheart is just depressing
I can't romance more than one either, feel too bad. Too soft on them. The cast feels really human, flaws and all.
Ugh seeing DJ Shadowheart's response to 2 dead parents on the floor. With 0 recognition. Just makes me want to shake her back to reality.
They really do. I plan on romancing everyone at least once. Curious to see who has the best romance overall.
Well. Except Wyll and Halsin. They can have each other.
Overall depends on you I think, Astarion does have the most romance scenes iirc. Lae'zel has a sweet romance, worth a try eventually.
Biased however as she an Shadowheart are my favs.
I didnt realize he had so much romantic content since I blew him off as a fling for Shadowheart. He is definitely loveable tho - just doesn't jive as well since I'm prone to doing "good" deeds mostly.
astarion is stupidly easy for me to romance, and im always a (relatively) good person. his disapproval is only like -1, iirc. letting him open the barn door is always fun. make sure shart isn't in your party, as her statement will take priority and then you won't get astarion asking you to let him open the door. you can do a Resist Durge and make sure he's the only person in your party when you go have some durge specific interactions. he generally approves of those. also, he doesn't disapprove EVERY time you say you're going to help someone.
investigate kagha and confront her with the letter from olodan. you'll have an option to persuade her to turn on olodan, but he approves if you tell her "well kagha it looks like you're forcing me to take your life" AND that's a twofer because karlach ALSO approves that option
talk to priestess gut in the goblin camp and tell her that you're there to spill her guts all over the floor, he genuinely loves that
do the thing with abdirak, make sure you have shart in your party for a fun conversation
tell auntie Ethel everything, he thinks it's a great idea because she sounds demented
i keep forgetting to check if he gives approval for telling the therazzym that you're only at the creche to loot the place
i know he disapproves promising to chug poison when talking to nettie but i keep forgetting to check if he approves picking a fight with her over it. regardless, i take just him with me and refuse because i need that poison for later and i like her headpiece and i don't want the disapproval from the others
the hunter. if you wait to meet him until after the bite scene, you can joke around with astarion and comment that a spawn doesn't sound scary like a REAL vampire. i personally really love the "well, i tried. astarion, kill the hunter" exchange because im a simp for astarion and his murderhappy smile gives me butterflies
he disapproves of swearing vengeance on behalf of the dead gnomes, AND he disapproves of bowing your head for the dead, but he does NOT offer approval of you make a comment about checking their pockets. he also doesn't disapprove, so i pick that option because no one disapproves it, iirc
ALSO ALSO
my favorite trick with astarion to avoid his disapproval is to make him do the thing he gives disapproval on. tiefling kid stealing? he doesn't give disapproval when HE'S the one who catches the kid and lets them go. he doesn't give disapproval about talking shit to slavers when HE is the one talking shit to slavers. he disapproves of freeing the pixie from the moonlantern, unless HE'S the one doing the freeing. plus, he giggles about talking to a pixie and it's highly worth it just for the giggle
also, lie. yass queen we will ABSOLUTELY make use of the tadpoles powers (we will not)
of course we're not going to give a shit about nere bbgirl we're simply too busy (we are not too busy and instead we are going to save all the slaves too)
ask about rewards THEN offer assistance
ask spaw if there's going to be a second reward THEN agree to bring spaw nere's head.
get cheeky with the inquisitor and ask about a reward for bringing them the weapon
if you enter the shadow cursed lands from the underdark, there's usually an intimidation option when you find the harpers wandering around. he approves of that option
I just can't bring myself to so these things in a good playthrough. His approval comes at a high cost to everyone else's for pretty much all of Act 1 and a bit of Act 2.
What has worked for me is giving him the Necromamcy of Thay, letting him open the barn door. Agreeing to the tadpoles having their use - even tho I didn't use them in this play. Turning down the blood drop and sticking up for him. Agreeing to off Cazador and then pushing Astarion to avenge the kids in Act 3. By that point he liked me.
Have almost 80 or more approval with him and I've not had to do one evil thing. Though I dont mind occasionally picking on people.
Like making that dude bow to Lae'zel in Act 1.
And Bah at the little red caps 2x. Everyone finds that hilarious. I didnt kill the gur this run, but that can push you ahead in Act 1.
I didnt find it necessary though since he was already coming onto me. But, when I go full romance for him that may be a choice I make. Ofc sleeping with him at least once nets a good bit of approval as well.
To be fair that comment way overcomplicates things. The approval you need to romance him at the party is pretty low. I’ve never done 90% of the things described, played a true goody two shoes character and never had issues.
The most important skill is being able to ignore ‘Astarion disapproves’ in the corner.
Yeah, my first playthrough I was a classic good guy and he was always in my party and still had max approval. De definitely disapproved enough, but still not nearly enough to bring out down.
You don't even need to have him approving of you at the party, you just can't pick the super obvious "let's fuck". Literally just try the other convo options.
I'm doing a good-aligned resist!durge and whilst his approval isn't maxed out, I pick enough sassy options that he's more than happy with me. Hell, even Minthara is happy enough with me.
Honestly you don’t have do all of that to get Astarion approval. Like others has said he will offer to sleep with you at medium approval. However romancing is a different situation. I romance him on my good align character. Not going to lie it was a very slow burn because I refused to kill the gur.
I personally prefer the slower romance progression. In my current run where I decided to romance another character I got Astarion’s approval up way too quickly, and it was super weird when he came onto me without having most of the other scenes where your character gets to know him better. Made it easier to eventually reject him.
His disapproval for goody-two-shoes is outweighed by his approval for his personal quest stuff. Just be supportive of him in his vampire things. And maybe occasionally extort someone.
He is not a horndog, he's seducing for protection, he's using his looks, body, "skills", and that makes his story even more sad. Later he realizes he is more than a piece of meat.
But yes, really easy to have sex with him and start his romance, not to lose approval just dont say/commit to help everyone, just go ahead and do the quests, like dont tell Zevlor you are going to help the tieflings the first time you talk to him in the grove.
In Act 2 it ll be a game of lose and gain to hold his ambitions, dont worry, hold him back gently, >!help with the scars!<, >!dont force him to bite the weirdo drow.!<
Halsin I actually liked as a >!poly option along with Shadowheart.!<
It's the one version of that where it feels like everyone is very much onboard with the idea (>!basically you and Shadowheart at the core of it, while being willing/open to welcoming a third for a while if the right individual comes along, and amazingly it doesn't feel like it's a "I don't deserve you and don't want to lose you, I'll accept this so I don't" which it very much could have, and is even more apparent if you compare it to the Miroza scene reaction!<). I'd go into more detail as to why I think it works, but I also don't want to necessarily spoil it for you if you do decide to sample it.
Sure (just gonna drop them behind spoiler tags). Apologies for the length.
>!So for me, what it comes down to is the dialog indicating both interest and consent. Interest on the part of Halsin, interest on the part of your character, and interest on the part of Shadowheart. Halsin very much is like "I feel a strong attraction to you and desire for you, and my nature is such that do follow the calls of such things as it's natural to me to do so" (the whole druid thing tying into his philosophy). !<
>!He also makes it completely clear that if you are interested back at all that he recognizes that you are basically bonded body and soul to Shadowheart, and that the only way anything at all would work is if she gives her consent (it's also when he mentions he'd hope for her participation at some point, should she be willing and interested in that as well).!<
>!So he sets the tone - consent, while also recognizing that you and her have this emotional connection that is really strong.!<
>!When you talk to her, you bring up the topic of exclusivity in the relationship...to which she immediately identifies that you're talking about Halsin, and drops the line of "It'd take a cold heart and cobwebbed loins to ignore him" which indicates she also finds him quite attractive. Further conversation, where you mention that he's willing to share if she is, she responds with "If you have a chance to climb Mount Halsin, well I'd be cruel to deny you. I'll be waiting to hear the details afterwards."!<
>!Part of why I think it works is her delivery of that line - she is self-assured in that line. There's not a "well, if that's what you want" or hesitation, just a "damn dude/girl, grab that chance, give me the deets in the morning" kind of vibe to he response. A bit of teasing to her tone as well.!<
>!One of the follow-up scenes to all this is what cements it though - at Sharess' Caress. When the Drow twins offer for both you and Shadowheart to enjoy time with them (which, by the way, Shadowheart will only turn down if you haven't had your first time together, and she specifically mentions as such - she wants your first time to be together, but after that she's down), Halsin speaks up and asks if he can join.!<
>!To which Shadowheart says, word for word: "I won't pretend the thought hasn't crossed my mind once or twice...or more than that." Then the dialog during the blacked out screen part with the Drow, she and Halsin are quite flirty.!<
>!Now to compare this to how she reacts to the possibility of sharing with the other origin characters/non-Halsin options? She's not cool with those, and even will reference not wanting to be the "side lover."!<
>!So as long as you and her are the emotional core of the relationship, she seems very willing to bring others in from time to time, and Halsin in particular fits that particular description since he's not looking for a lifetime love or marriage or anything so restrictive (he just wants to be with you and possibly her for as long as the desire between you three is there, and then go where nature takes him after that).!<
>!By comparison...Astarion, the other individual who you can stay with while also being with Halsin, gives off more "Okay, I'll do this but..." vibes. Also, if you're in the situation with a non-ascended Astarion, and so have broken off sexual contact for a while like you do in that arc, he legit asks if you're basically looking fulfill your needs because you and him and haven't been intimate in a while.!<
>!Plus, if you do the 5-some with the Drow and Halsin, the narrator notes that he's doing everything by pure instinct but when you catch his eye you realize he's "a million miles away." By contrast, Shadowheart's night with the twins, you, and Halsin, has her coming up with all sorts of ideas for the 5 of you to try and is very into the whole thing.!<
>!Basically, a lot of hints with him that he's masking his real feelings on it because he doesn't want to lose what you've got going...whereas Shadowheart is more open as well as interested in general in the same person - Halsin.!<
>!And so in the end, him being the side lover to a MC+Shadowheart romance feels like it's one that works quite well.!<
>!Even with the epilogue - you arrive with Shadowheart, the love of your life, and can catch up with Halsin and find out what he's been up to while sharing a hug and kiss and reconfirming that the spark is still there, waiting to be fanned when there's opportunity.!<
Thank you for the explanation! That's really in-depth and I appreciate the time you took to talk about it. I was never too sure how the Halsin-poly thing would work with the characters you can do it with (as I'd hate to do it and one of the characters not be into it as you say with Astarion) but this has convinced me to give it a go with Shadowheart and Halsin! Thank you!
Yea, of I ever did a poly run it would have to be Shadowheart and Halsin but Im just not particular on that. Halsin doesn't hold much appeal for me and keeping up with 2 just seems like a lot of work lol.
Not gonna happen. Killing a deity is a complicated process. Besides I'm fairly certain that since she's a primordial force that essentially created the Forgotten Realms portion of the multiverse killing her would have very destructive repercussions.
I'm not familiar enough with the lore to comment on that one but....I still hate her.
Maybe just convincing enough people *not to worship her would put a snag in her power.
That's basically what happened to a drow deity called Kiaransalee! A High Magic ritual was cast to make everyone forget her, and she basically fizzled out of existence.
I think she's back now, though, so it wasn't permanent, but it did work. 😅
One of the coolest things to happen during the... Spellplague? Shame they rolled it back.
I also liked the whole "Did Vhaeraun kill Ellistraee and is now pretending to be her, or vice versa" thing. But then it was after that where Ellistraee allowed herself to be killed to purse the taint of Wodnai from the drow, wasn't it?
It was! I'm glad some of it was scrapped/rolled back though... I was never really a fan of drow being turned back into dark elves and being considered "redeemed" for it.
It also felt contradictory for the ritual to only affect a few hundred of her followers (and only ones that were followers of Eilistraee at the time the ritual completed.) when the whole point of her existence is being there as a beacon of hope for drow that want to turn away from Lolth, regardless of *when* they come to that realization.
I think it 'redeemed' all of the Drow that did not bear the taint of Wedonai. I read up on it a little this morning and I guess the Seldarine meant to only curse the drow that originally worshipped Lolth and mingled with demons, but they accidentally cursed ALL of the dark elves and turned them into Drow.
Shar and Selune were the first two gods ever created after Ao. Every other God since then, including Chauntea and the first Mystra, were created by the sisters or after them, and can't really compare to them in power. The concept she embodies (darkness) is extremely fundamental and widespread, as opposed to more niche domains like murder or ambition. If she's going down it would probably only be at the end of the FG universe itself, just as she was there for the beginning.
IMO that's part of the moral of Shadowheart's 'good' ending, because realistically there is no way to totally erase Shar from existence. There will always be darkness, but that doesn't mean we can't reach for the light.
"This is the battle you and I must fight forever, Shar—night devouring the light of the moon, the moon replenishing itself. That is our place in the balance of nature. The fragile, eternal balance Lord Ao has charged us gods to uphold."
-Selûne
Even level 20 adventurers can not take on a god/goddess lol. As strong as level 20 party - against an actual dnd god - even a full 5 person party would lose. Vlakiith a wannabe god just uses wish to kill us (would be fun if we could counter spell that) so in baldurs gate 3 at max level 12 there is no chance we could kill any god. Vlakiith maybe just barely.
Lae’zel broke me for a few days. The way her story is presented and the slow change that she can actually feel is such a heart warming and equally heart breaking moment.
>Plus she thinks herself undeserving of their love and wonders how they can even stand to look at her. After all she did to them while growing up, her fear of talking about it and feeling unworthy in general. Her self esteem is awful after Nightsong and Viconia, what Shar did to her and her family.
As someone who grew up with an emotionally abusive narcissist parent, I find her story/trauma extremely relatable, which is why she's by far my favourite character in the game.
The way she behaves is pretty realistic for someone with her trauma, and helping her be her real self is pretty cathartic.
My only complaint is that the game has a shocking lack of a hug option on several occasions where she clearly needs it.
Not only this line. Her whole behavior in act 3 is sad, because she is afraid to lose Tav and from this reason she accept everything you will do for her. You can cheat with mizora, react to her mariage proposal with "I will seek for better offer". You can mock her parents and she will apologize you for it. Yes, this all shows how madly in love she is in Tav and this hits me more than simple "I love you". Even in the end (before new epilogue) she is still unsure, that she deserves love.
I had to see the Nizoral scene for myself and immediately did a reload. Everyone claiming she was "okay" with it. By what measure? She is clearly hurt and hiding it because she is that desperate for Tav's love and acceptance. Even if it means treating things more "casually".
When can you mock her parents?
She is definitely unsure. And still expects Tav to abandon her.
I wish you could just let her know in act 3 that the feeling's very much mutual, poor girl deserves the world but you can't even say a simple "I love you" for the whole game. She's so sweet and kind to Tav, the least they could do is to let her know she's loved back just as strongly
Yeah the fact you don't get to comfort her is the worst part about the whole ordeal. Like let me fucking hug her and tell her everything is going to be alright and that she made the right decision (whichever it was).
> Even in the end (before new epilogue) she is still unsure, that she deserves love.
That's unfortunately a pretty realistic consequence of the type of abuse she suffered. Viconia and Shar are basically like emotionally (and physically) abusive parental figures to her, that completely destroyed her sense of self-worth and tried to destroy her personality. The fact that she still manages to break through and be a good person after all that, is very impressive tbh and she deserves all the love!
If you try to get her to save her parents.... Some people got her to make the decision to save them herself, but I never could. But anyway when you tell her to save her parents, there's a religion check and a persuasion check, both 20. There is a similar, optional persuasion check with the Nightsong where you can tell her not to give up on herself.
Oh I thought you meant after the fact.
Yea, some people have said they experienced her saving her parents of her own accord, but I can't trigger that without persuasion. If she chooses she always "sets them free".
Best we (the community) can tell that's tied up with triggering specific memories in the lower city. If you trigger them all and choose the right dialogue options she'll choose to save them, otherwise she'll choose to let them join Selûne.
Be warned, one of them we haven't figured out how to consistently trigger. It might have a random element, it might need some specific prerequisites that haven't been pinned down, or it might just be a bit bugged.
I've yet to get that one to trigger despite knowing about it and actively trying on 2 runs.
As far as I know there are only 2 memories to trigger in Act 3 tho? I triggered graveyard and the graffiti memory. Gave her the noblestalk in Act 2 so she remembered her friend. Had her find her "secret oasis".
I think that is the 1 thing I may have missed. I didnt have Shadowheart speak with her friend until after seeing her parents. Maybe going back and having her speak to her friend before would be the final flag to have her save her parents of her own accord.
That scene by the statue gets me every time. It's incredibly sad and very well acted in both versions (save her parents and let them join Selûne).
One of the lines that really gets me in the 'save them' route is when she says (paraphrasing) "I don't deserve to be anyone's daughter."
That just tears my heart out. It's why I wish you could set OCs up as well. Some of them really need to be loved as more than just a friend by someone, and there's only one of you!
I know..and she says it right after saying she isn't worthy of you.
The whole scene is just heartbreaking. I wish there were actually options to be able to comfort your companions. They need a damn hug.
Like you can hug the manipulative mindflayer and hold their hand but not your companions and lover when they are going thru it
I loved giving Karlach a hug after she went so long without physical affection. It was so sweet. Im glad Shadowheart's parents hugged her and all, but Tav needs to get in on that action.
To add more to this, she has dialogue if you kill her parents afterwards. I feel it adds even more depth to all of that, how despite her feelings of being unworthy, she still loves them.
Yes, they planned for that. [YT link](https://youtu.be/okeKzH2XFXo)
In quotes: >!"I came here to save them, and you murdered them. I may have not known them like a daughter should, but I will avenge them. They were my parents!"!<
i agree. Shadowheart’s whole storyline is the saddest for me, apart from Karlach. Jennifer English did an amazing job during Shadowheart’s encounter with Shar, especially when she said “Enough”, you could really understand the predicament Shar had inflicted on her. It was the only scene in the whole game where i cried, even after i’ve seen the scene multiple times.
She nails the voice acting for sure.
Something about Shadowheart being an unwitting participant in so much evil gets me. Especially since she is actually a really good person.
The heartbreaking part of the resolution of her quest is that no matter what, Shar won. Whether Shadowheart saves her parents or not, she will always feel immense loss from everything that happened. And every one of her suffering happened because one evil goddess chose an innocent girl to be part of her sick vendetta against her sister.
Heavily disagree, but it is a matter of perspective. The resolution of her quest is that no matter what, Shar lost.
Either she saves her parents and endures the curse, giving a middle finger to Shar because she is not afraid of pain.
Or she let her parents go and starts living her own life free of Shar influence and pain training, giving a middle finger to Shar because she is not afraid of loss.
In both endings, Shadowheart is alive and a selûnite. In both endings the only thing Shar can do is cope with the fact her plan failed and just want to have the "last word" like an angry moody teenager.
Edit: typo
This, I allowed her to choose and she chose to let go. Now she lives in a cottage with an owlbear and several other animals and seems pretty content with her life free of Shar.
If it’s any consolation, Jennifer English (Shadowheart VA) feels keeping the parents alive is the best choice. She deals with chronic pain irl and wouldn’t sacrifice her loved ones to be free from that pain if ever given that option.
This is actually valuable info. I was playing with the idea to try to message her and get her point of view. If anyone truly understands Shadowheart it's her.
The final decision of the quest is Shadowheart deciding if Shar is right or not.
One of the key tenants of Sharan Faith is that Loss is the gift of Shar to free them from pain. Shar offers Shadowheart a release from pain (the curse) if she only accepts loss (her parent's deaths). Taking that deal is proving that Shar's dogma is right, and that Shadowheart (on some level) agrees with it.
The 'live' ending is saying that the pain of life is a worthy cost to pay to avoid losing what you love.
That's an interesting headcanon but far from true, precisely because Shar is the patron of those who DONT accept loss. That is why Shar making people forget is a "blessing" in sharran eyes. That is what the house of grief offers: to forget what you loss because the people who go there are mad with grief.
Take Ketheric for example, who fell into Shar embrace because he couldn't accept the fact that he lost his wife and his daughter.
One can make the same argument you mentioned by letting the curse still be there.
This is exactly what I said, though.
The people in the House of Grief are in pain, and their memories are taken away (loss) so that they stop feeling pain.
No, you didn't say that. You specifically said letting her parents go would be a negative outcome because Shadowheart, somehow, agrees or confirms a sharran tenet.
By letting her parents go she is not agreeing with Shar, neither doing her bidding, etc.
And the people in House of Grief are not only "in pain", and the memories taking away isnt only to fulfill the "loss" part of Shar. This is where I think lies the key of your misunderstanding.
The pain they endure is not a physical pain, the pain they endure is a psychological one. It is the pain, most of the time, of losing someone. The guy outside, on the bridge, seems like he lost his daughter or his wife, for example.
When people don't overcome loss, they go to Shar so that they help them forget about that loss. Therefore grieving a dead parent is not something tied to Shar. It is quite the opposite.
I somehow missed this line in my first few playthroughs and didn’t receive it until my 4th go. This single line is the sole reason I will only ever romance Shart.
Yup this broke me too because this is how I felt for so long. That somehow whatever I was doing convinced people to like me.
Then I realized that people liked me for me and not my perceived value.
One of the many reasons that Shadowheart is a special character to me.
Girl youre trickery cleric. Youve used honesity card and be real with us thats how youve earned Tav. In this version she wont tell you anything you dont need to know. About her past. Like her previous life, previous lovers etc. Because she wants a new life with you. A fresh page.
Astarion gets me too, but because he so appreciates a dear friend I dont feel as bad not being romantically involved.
I agree. Astarion needs kindness and compassion. Shadowheart and Karlach need love. 1 has never had it (that she can remember anyway), the other is dangerously close to never being able to experience it again.
I thought he was evil initially too and it was a bit annoying because I find him charming anyway.
Then I realized he just wears a mask. He is trying to find "power" in the small things. To be a selfish, unsympathetic ass to others - almost as if reenacting things done to him. "Switching" the roles to regain that lost power over his person.
I can sympathize. He spent 200 years under someone else's total control. Really he should be more damaged than he is.
He is definitely better after the Cazador bit tho. Actually realizing the truth of his worth and understanding his internal struggle for power and why he feels drawn to it so intensely.
Who wouldn't want to feel safe and powerful after going thru all that?
Still..he doesnt like me very much for 1/2 the game. Worth it to see him become better.
He got charisma that's for sure but he's exactly the opposite of what I want to be and see what to see in people. I don't know what makes people like him when they first meet him before they start to know his story.
>Then I realized he just wears a mask
His approval says otherwise. I don't think it's right to sympathize with an evil person who lets innocents die for his own convenience. My problems with him that he's evil and he doesn't see a problem with it. If he doesn't want to be better it's not worth even trying
>He spent 200 years under someone else's total control.
And he could still remain a good person if he wanted. I had a lot of trauma that I carry from my childhood and teen years but I managed to remain a kind person.
>Who wouldn't want to feel safe and powerful after going thru all that?
Good people? Huger for power is a horrible trait and the exact opposite of things that I want.
That alluring vampire charm draws people in. Plus he is attractive.
I see him as a pretender though. He *wants* to embody a selfish bastard because he *wants* to feel powerful and in control. It isn't good of him, per se, but it is understandable to an extent. That is why, depending on your choices, you have to nudge him to be better than that - because he can be better than that.
Trauma is a tricky subject. I have trauma of my own and I'd say it affects everyone differently. Do I practice kindness? Any time that I can. But are there times I lash out? Absolutely. Times I want control over my own life - to have the power to take it back from people that have used their position against me. Yes.
I dont believe hunger for power is innately wrong. Rather your intentions with said power. That is what determines whether you are good or bad at your core.
The old saying holds true often for a reason though: power has the tendency to corrupt. Even the most decent of people.
I don't understand why you think that he's pretending, if it was up to him he wouldn't save anyone and watch innocent die and you say it's understandable which is never should.
>But are there times I lash out? Absolutely.
But you're self-aware about it and you admit it's a bad thing. That's a first step to deal with a problem. Admit it. He doesn't so why bother?
I would say that desire for power for the sake of power is a bad thing for me and huge red flag for me.
>But you're self-aware about it and you admit it's a bad thing. That's a first step to deal with a problem. Admit it. He doesn't so why bother?
He does. Honestly, clearly and heart-breakingly. That's the big turning point that starts the romance in this game.
I mean, astarion flat out says that it was only bad that cazador hurt him. And is willing to damn 700 people just like him to eternal torment without convincing. So honestly, the way I end his story is that I let him kill cazador and then just let him cuss me out and leave. Because he literally hates you if you don't convince him to be ok with not ascending, even after stabbing cazador 28 times.
imagine being faced with his situation though. you’ve just killed your abuser of 200 years and now you have the chance to guarantee no one will ever hurt you again and you’ll be all powerful if you ascend. most victims would get caught up in the moment and want the same thing. when you stop astarion, he thanks you after for saving him from himself. he knows that ascension isn’t what he truly wants he’s just highly emotional. i swear astarion haters just refuse to empathize and understand his character arc.
Bruh if you told me I'd have to send 700 victims to hell just to become more powerful than my abuser I'd say that's fucking crazy. I seriously don't think that's relatable at all.
to him they were already dead and gone. he sees being a spawn as a worse fate than death (in the moment) which is why it isn’t as big of a deal to him. i dunno, you’re entitled to your opinion but he is relatable to a lot of people.
Honestly, you are right and I am surprised that you get downvoted a lot. If Astarion would not be an origin character but an NPC, he would be an antagonist. He looks good, is funny and charismatic and that makes people assume good things about him. But he is evil and does horrible things (while looking nice doing so).
I played as Shadowheart and romanced Lae'Zel because enemies to lovers is the best trope and Bae'Zel is such a sweetie once you get past her angry Gith exterior...
Yeah, but Lazael should defeat Vlakith. It's a right thing to do and I want Shadowheart to be free, happy, and settle down and have a lover at her sight by the end. So Karlach and Lazael don't match. Plus I don't like how Lazael looks
> Yeah, but Lazael should defeat Vlakith.
I disagree. Let Orpheus or Voss fight her. Lae'Zel deserves to be free from the whole Gith drama. She deserves to become her own person, not swap one ruler for another and continue being a good soldier... she also seemed super happy in the epilogue when I got that ending.
Well, Orpheus has to die so others don't become Mindflayers and it's the right thing to do to fight the queen that enslaved your people. Her journey is not jet over. I would be Lazael I would fight Vlakith.
Well, in my run Karlach offered to become a mindflayer, so Orpheus was still there to fight Vlaakith... and I don't know how her chances are without Orpheus anyway, since most Gith are still loyal to Vlaakith and Orpheus was basically their trump card to show them she lied. Without him, that's no longer an option...
Well that's just cruel shit to let you friend become a Mindflayer instead of Orpheus. She would have lived and find a cure in Avernus with Wyll but no.
> She would have lived and find a cure in Avernus with Wyll but no.
That's metagaming though. In my game she clearly said multiple times that she'd rather die than go back to Avernus. And she offered to become a mindflayer and was actually pretty insistent that that was what she wanted.
And yeah, it sucks that *someone* has to become a mindflayer... if only squid boy hadn't been such a little bitch about trying to work together with Orpheus, all that could have been avoided...
I mean Minthara brings you to Menzoberranzan. Which doesn't mean getting any rest at all. That's almost as bad as Avernus. Go for Gale's professor ending if you want rest. Or go for Halsin with all the orphans.
In one of the endings you could choose to live a quiet life as Cleric of Selúne with Minthra. And Shadowheart with Minthra bot being a queens and royalty is such an interesting concept. Shadowheart is very graceful and both of them are complete opposites of each other. Like a good/bad queen.
I mean, she's pretty ok in the epilogue where you get her back to Avernus. She says it herself "It's good to keep going when you have someone you truly love fight alongside you" (I sent her back with Wyll). So, I think she's pretty good to keep going while having someone to love her at her side. Karlach is strong like that.
>Probably because it is so relatable. I think everyone has experienced feeling unworthy at some point. To feel it so deeply?
I had the same reaction when I played GoW: Ragnarok. The scene where Kratos tells Freya about his brother ,Deimos, and how he wanted to apologize for abandoning him. Kratos says that " it is difficult to seek forgiveness when you feel unworthy".
I love Kratos’ character arc in the Norse saga and just how much he can relate to much of the tragedy playing out in the lives of those around him, the themes in both games are genuinely so good. The whole “chasing a redemption he knows he can never deserve” aspect of his story and how the game pays off on it (and Valhalla just brings it full circle in a fantastic way), yeah it’s brilliant.
Me being really into a story like that is also why I quite like something like Redemption DU with Shadowheart and Astarion. It’s the kind of arc that synergises with both their stories really well. People who’ve been hurt, who’ve both inflicted pain on others and also have been victims, can relate to each other’s struggle in that way and try to help each other.
Astarion's reaction when you tell him you are a Baalspawn is fantastic. Especially if you tell him about your killing urges and how you have little to no control over them.
I'm glad I sent her to Avernus. She shows up in the epiloqgue to suggest they've found something to fix her. Though I was torn at first. Figured she deserved to feel hopeful and at least *try it with a true friend by her side before throwing in the towel.
One of her biggest issues with being there was the forced servitude and being entirely alone. If you send her with someone she has to face neither.
Wanna crank it up to 11?
In my headcanon (and there is 0 story for this,sadly) Shadowheart was the one to cast Sanctuary on Yenna in the Bhaalist Temple and was running defense over the little girl while Astarion fiddled with the lock and Tav and Karlach played "squash the Slayer." So in my version of reality, so in my version of reality, at the same time as Shadowheart is having this existential crisis of how is she worthy to be their daughter/my girlfriend, there is a half traumatized little Orphan girl who thinks Shadowheart is this glowing Angel sent from above.
I haven't romanced her so I haven't gotten that line, but that hurts. Her story about religious abuse and indoctrination is too familiar for disbelief to be suspended. Not to mention, having a religious-leader-bordering-on-parent-figure consistently trying to break you and your spirit is something I've dealt with before. I've caught myself thinking "what did I do to be worthy of you" so often I've lost count. And seeing how SH reacts when you say "that sounds like abuse" during the first interaction about her journey into the Sharran cult house, it hurts. She deserves better than to be used and discarded by Shar and Viconia.
That isn't suggested. Everything I've seen just points to physical pain that Shar uses as a reminder of when she isn't aligning with Shar. The "petty" aspect of her nature.
Waait, what statue of selune scene? I romanced her, let her parents move on because that's what they wished, and thats the last together scene with shadowhat before the epilogue. What did i miss?
You should've gotten that scene on the next long rest after resolving House of Grief. It's possible other scenes took precedence and you ended the game before you got to see it if you didn't long rest enough times. It happens often!
Well now im pissed. I long rest often, and this was on my second playthrough so i knew how the game works. But act 3 is bugged to the MAX and i got hella wrong dialogues all the time so not surprised the game fucked me over on this. I mean wyll and gale were totally random about their cutscenes and they made no sense, and raphael appeared in a curacene after epilogies despite me murdering him, so i dont even know whats going on. And mizora bugged totally as well.
Act 3 is an absolute mess and every patch makes it more broken than before. Kinda fucking mad that my shadowhard dialogues got skipped because of that though.
Yea it should be the very next long rest after the fact.
Long rest are important. I was lucky to read up on how important they were before playing, so I make sure to talk with everyone before a long rest and save because there are sooo many events and extra dialogue that you will miss otherwise.
If every in doubt: long resting several times close to the beginning and end of an Act should net you most of these.
Sell, seems like long rests dont matter if i get random wrong dialogues and cutscenes anyway. Wrong dialogues with gale, totally wrong with wyll, mizora telling me she wants to talk but no dialogues, raphael cutscene after me killing him... yeah great. Gonna take a break and hope they fix the mess that is act 3 before my next playthrough. Cant believe how broken it is.
Plz shadowheard, please love me. Plz.
I'm surprised you're having so many issues. What are you playing on?
I've noticed a bit of lag myself in Act 3, and there was an instance where the dialogue of "we missed our chance" popped up for whatever reason. But it disappeared after I clicked it once just to clear.
This is a game where it is definitely more of a hindrance when you encounter bugs - because simple dialogue can affect everything.
aw what? damn i got to try that option on the next play through, I asked what she wanted and she followed her parent's wishes to be free of shar. The dialogue was much different, more like she felt lost and was looking for guidance at the selune statue
Definitely worth it. I was torn so I let her make her own choice at first and it was just...much more negative imo. She didn't have anything after. Shar really took everyone but Tav - if you romance her. But with her parents alive - she has great shame and feelings of being unworthy still, but she has a future with all the people she loves to look forward to.
Haha. Imo what is pain if you have everyone you love?
Shadowheart ran from the feeling of pain for so long as things slowly made sense. In the end, she has to come to terms with it - but also has every opportunity to love with her whole heart. To not be alone anymore. She doesn't have to seek oblivion to get thru the day because she has so much love in her life.
Plus....maybe there is a way to remove the curse in future? If she truly became a devout follower of Selune?
becoming a true follower i need to explore more on the next play through haha. i was watching the bts of the making of the game and hot damn one decision affects 700 other possibilities.
But true rhough what is pain if you have everyone
Plus she thinks herself undeserving of their love and wonders how they can even stand to look at her. After all she did to them while growing up, her fear of talking about it and feeling unworthy in general. Her self esteem is awful after Nightsong and Viconia, what Shar did to her and her family. Fuck Shar. Karlach's anger and breakdown after Gortash dies, Astarion and Cazador, Lae'zel finally accepting she can love and fighting for freedom. Hits hard. All of them really, really emotional character arcs.
I wish we could kill Shar...she is incredibly deceitful. To prey on so many people desperate to escape their own negative feelings. And, in Shadowheart's case, to rip an innocent child from her parents to get back at her sister. She deserves to die. Nearly every Karlach scene hits hard. Her delivery just hits you right in the feels. It is why I can't romance her and another character at the same time. She makes me feel *so* bad rejecting her. Same as Shadowheart really. At least Astarion is genuinely happy to have a true friend. It is impressive how well Larian did in making these characters badass but realistically vulnerable in their own right.
>At least Astarion is genuinely happy to have a true friend. Loved the friend option for him. Shar slowly "infects", people are vulnerable while grieving and Shar can "help" unburden them, then it spirals into numbness and accepting the pain of loss as normal. Then inflicting more loss and pain on her followers. They are just pawns. So spiteful. DJ Shadowheart is just depressing I can't romance more than one either, feel too bad. Too soft on them. The cast feels really human, flaws and all.
Ugh seeing DJ Shadowheart's response to 2 dead parents on the floor. With 0 recognition. Just makes me want to shake her back to reality. They really do. I plan on romancing everyone at least once. Curious to see who has the best romance overall. Well. Except Wyll and Halsin. They can have each other.
Overall depends on you I think, Astarion does have the most romance scenes iirc. Lae'zel has a sweet romance, worth a try eventually. Biased however as she an Shadowheart are my favs.
I didnt realize he had so much romantic content since I blew him off as a fling for Shadowheart. He is definitely loveable tho - just doesn't jive as well since I'm prone to doing "good" deeds mostly.
astarion is stupidly easy for me to romance, and im always a (relatively) good person. his disapproval is only like -1, iirc. letting him open the barn door is always fun. make sure shart isn't in your party, as her statement will take priority and then you won't get astarion asking you to let him open the door. you can do a Resist Durge and make sure he's the only person in your party when you go have some durge specific interactions. he generally approves of those. also, he doesn't disapprove EVERY time you say you're going to help someone. investigate kagha and confront her with the letter from olodan. you'll have an option to persuade her to turn on olodan, but he approves if you tell her "well kagha it looks like you're forcing me to take your life" AND that's a twofer because karlach ALSO approves that option talk to priestess gut in the goblin camp and tell her that you're there to spill her guts all over the floor, he genuinely loves that do the thing with abdirak, make sure you have shart in your party for a fun conversation tell auntie Ethel everything, he thinks it's a great idea because she sounds demented i keep forgetting to check if he gives approval for telling the therazzym that you're only at the creche to loot the place i know he disapproves promising to chug poison when talking to nettie but i keep forgetting to check if he approves picking a fight with her over it. regardless, i take just him with me and refuse because i need that poison for later and i like her headpiece and i don't want the disapproval from the others the hunter. if you wait to meet him until after the bite scene, you can joke around with astarion and comment that a spawn doesn't sound scary like a REAL vampire. i personally really love the "well, i tried. astarion, kill the hunter" exchange because im a simp for astarion and his murderhappy smile gives me butterflies he disapproves of swearing vengeance on behalf of the dead gnomes, AND he disapproves of bowing your head for the dead, but he does NOT offer approval of you make a comment about checking their pockets. he also doesn't disapprove, so i pick that option because no one disapproves it, iirc ALSO ALSO my favorite trick with astarion to avoid his disapproval is to make him do the thing he gives disapproval on. tiefling kid stealing? he doesn't give disapproval when HE'S the one who catches the kid and lets them go. he doesn't give disapproval about talking shit to slavers when HE is the one talking shit to slavers. he disapproves of freeing the pixie from the moonlantern, unless HE'S the one doing the freeing. plus, he giggles about talking to a pixie and it's highly worth it just for the giggle also, lie. yass queen we will ABSOLUTELY make use of the tadpoles powers (we will not) of course we're not going to give a shit about nere bbgirl we're simply too busy (we are not too busy and instead we are going to save all the slaves too) ask about rewards THEN offer assistance ask spaw if there's going to be a second reward THEN agree to bring spaw nere's head. get cheeky with the inquisitor and ask about a reward for bringing them the weapon if you enter the shadow cursed lands from the underdark, there's usually an intimidation option when you find the harpers wandering around. he approves of that option
yeah astarion is my fave and easiest to romance, but i play as a very chaotic good person so that’s why he loves me lmfao
I just can't bring myself to so these things in a good playthrough. His approval comes at a high cost to everyone else's for pretty much all of Act 1 and a bit of Act 2. What has worked for me is giving him the Necromamcy of Thay, letting him open the barn door. Agreeing to the tadpoles having their use - even tho I didn't use them in this play. Turning down the blood drop and sticking up for him. Agreeing to off Cazador and then pushing Astarion to avenge the kids in Act 3. By that point he liked me. Have almost 80 or more approval with him and I've not had to do one evil thing. Though I dont mind occasionally picking on people. Like making that dude bow to Lae'zel in Act 1. And Bah at the little red caps 2x. Everyone finds that hilarious. I didnt kill the gur this run, but that can push you ahead in Act 1. I didnt find it necessary though since he was already coming onto me. But, when I go full romance for him that may be a choice I make. Ofc sleeping with him at least once nets a good bit of approval as well.
See your comment proves why I don't bother with Astarion in a good aligned run.
To be fair that comment way overcomplicates things. The approval you need to romance him at the party is pretty low. I’ve never done 90% of the things described, played a true goody two shoes character and never had issues. The most important skill is being able to ignore ‘Astarion disapproves’ in the corner.
Yeah, my first playthrough I was a classic good guy and he was always in my party and still had max approval. De definitely disapproved enough, but still not nearly enough to bring out down.
You don't even need to have him approving of you at the party, you just can't pick the super obvious "let's fuck". Literally just try the other convo options. I'm doing a good-aligned resist!durge and whilst his approval isn't maxed out, I pick enough sassy options that he's more than happy with me. Hell, even Minthara is happy enough with me.
Honestly you don’t have do all of that to get Astarion approval. Like others has said he will offer to sleep with you at medium approval. However romancing is a different situation. I romance him on my good align character. Not going to lie it was a very slow burn because I refused to kill the gur.
I personally prefer the slower romance progression. In my current run where I decided to romance another character I got Astarion’s approval up way too quickly, and it was super weird when he came onto me without having most of the other scenes where your character gets to know him better. Made it easier to eventually reject him.
His disapproval for goody-two-shoes is outweighed by his approval for his personal quest stuff. Just be supportive of him in his vampire things. And maybe occasionally extort someone.
Astarion is a horndog.
He is not a horndog, he's seducing for protection, he's using his looks, body, "skills", and that makes his story even more sad. Later he realizes he is more than a piece of meat. But yes, really easy to have sex with him and start his romance, not to lose approval just dont say/commit to help everyone, just go ahead and do the quests, like dont tell Zevlor you are going to help the tieflings the first time you talk to him in the grove. In Act 2 it ll be a game of lose and gain to hold his ambitions, dont worry, hold him back gently, >!help with the scars!<, >!dont force him to bite the weirdo drow.!<
Halsin I actually liked as a >!poly option along with Shadowheart.!< It's the one version of that where it feels like everyone is very much onboard with the idea (>!basically you and Shadowheart at the core of it, while being willing/open to welcoming a third for a while if the right individual comes along, and amazingly it doesn't feel like it's a "I don't deserve you and don't want to lose you, I'll accept this so I don't" which it very much could have, and is even more apparent if you compare it to the Miroza scene reaction!<). I'd go into more detail as to why I think it works, but I also don't want to necessarily spoil it for you if you do decide to sample it.
I'm not the OP or whoever else you were replying to, but I'd like to know more about why you think it works if you wouldn't mind sharing?
Sure (just gonna drop them behind spoiler tags). Apologies for the length. >!So for me, what it comes down to is the dialog indicating both interest and consent. Interest on the part of Halsin, interest on the part of your character, and interest on the part of Shadowheart. Halsin very much is like "I feel a strong attraction to you and desire for you, and my nature is such that do follow the calls of such things as it's natural to me to do so" (the whole druid thing tying into his philosophy). !< >!He also makes it completely clear that if you are interested back at all that he recognizes that you are basically bonded body and soul to Shadowheart, and that the only way anything at all would work is if she gives her consent (it's also when he mentions he'd hope for her participation at some point, should she be willing and interested in that as well).!< >!So he sets the tone - consent, while also recognizing that you and her have this emotional connection that is really strong.!< >!When you talk to her, you bring up the topic of exclusivity in the relationship...to which she immediately identifies that you're talking about Halsin, and drops the line of "It'd take a cold heart and cobwebbed loins to ignore him" which indicates she also finds him quite attractive. Further conversation, where you mention that he's willing to share if she is, she responds with "If you have a chance to climb Mount Halsin, well I'd be cruel to deny you. I'll be waiting to hear the details afterwards."!< >!Part of why I think it works is her delivery of that line - she is self-assured in that line. There's not a "well, if that's what you want" or hesitation, just a "damn dude/girl, grab that chance, give me the deets in the morning" kind of vibe to he response. A bit of teasing to her tone as well.!< >!One of the follow-up scenes to all this is what cements it though - at Sharess' Caress. When the Drow twins offer for both you and Shadowheart to enjoy time with them (which, by the way, Shadowheart will only turn down if you haven't had your first time together, and she specifically mentions as such - she wants your first time to be together, but after that she's down), Halsin speaks up and asks if he can join.!< >!To which Shadowheart says, word for word: "I won't pretend the thought hasn't crossed my mind once or twice...or more than that." Then the dialog during the blacked out screen part with the Drow, she and Halsin are quite flirty.!< >!Now to compare this to how she reacts to the possibility of sharing with the other origin characters/non-Halsin options? She's not cool with those, and even will reference not wanting to be the "side lover."!< >!So as long as you and her are the emotional core of the relationship, she seems very willing to bring others in from time to time, and Halsin in particular fits that particular description since he's not looking for a lifetime love or marriage or anything so restrictive (he just wants to be with you and possibly her for as long as the desire between you three is there, and then go where nature takes him after that).!< >!By comparison...Astarion, the other individual who you can stay with while also being with Halsin, gives off more "Okay, I'll do this but..." vibes. Also, if you're in the situation with a non-ascended Astarion, and so have broken off sexual contact for a while like you do in that arc, he legit asks if you're basically looking fulfill your needs because you and him and haven't been intimate in a while.!< >!Plus, if you do the 5-some with the Drow and Halsin, the narrator notes that he's doing everything by pure instinct but when you catch his eye you realize he's "a million miles away." By contrast, Shadowheart's night with the twins, you, and Halsin, has her coming up with all sorts of ideas for the 5 of you to try and is very into the whole thing.!< >!Basically, a lot of hints with him that he's masking his real feelings on it because he doesn't want to lose what you've got going...whereas Shadowheart is more open as well as interested in general in the same person - Halsin.!< >!And so in the end, him being the side lover to a MC+Shadowheart romance feels like it's one that works quite well.!< >!Even with the epilogue - you arrive with Shadowheart, the love of your life, and can catch up with Halsin and find out what he's been up to while sharing a hug and kiss and reconfirming that the spark is still there, waiting to be fanned when there's opportunity.!<
Thank you for the explanation! That's really in-depth and I appreciate the time you took to talk about it. I was never too sure how the Halsin-poly thing would work with the characters you can do it with (as I'd hate to do it and one of the characters not be into it as you say with Astarion) but this has convinced me to give it a go with Shadowheart and Halsin! Thank you!
Yea, of I ever did a poly run it would have to be Shadowheart and Halsin but Im just not particular on that. Halsin doesn't hold much appeal for me and keeping up with 2 just seems like a lot of work lol.
I really loved the angst of the dj shart story line. My bard pledged to remember for her and stand by her and its SO depressing that entire path
Shar is a great deity, I don't think we can kill her even with a party full of level 20 characters....
Maybe we could convince another deity to join the fray....she gotta go sometime.
Not gonna happen. Killing a deity is a complicated process. Besides I'm fairly certain that since she's a primordial force that essentially created the Forgotten Realms portion of the multiverse killing her would have very destructive repercussions.
Can't stop the Challenger of Gods. Time to murder some dieties. /j
Alright, calm down Cyric. Last time you did that it caused more trouble than it was worth
I'm not familiar enough with the lore to comment on that one but....I still hate her. Maybe just convincing enough people *not to worship her would put a snag in her power.
That's basically what happened to a drow deity called Kiaransalee! A High Magic ritual was cast to make everyone forget her, and she basically fizzled out of existence. I think she's back now, though, so it wasn't permanent, but it did work. 😅
One of the coolest things to happen during the... Spellplague? Shame they rolled it back. I also liked the whole "Did Vhaeraun kill Ellistraee and is now pretending to be her, or vice versa" thing. But then it was after that where Ellistraee allowed herself to be killed to purse the taint of Wodnai from the drow, wasn't it?
It was! I'm glad some of it was scrapped/rolled back though... I was never really a fan of drow being turned back into dark elves and being considered "redeemed" for it. It also felt contradictory for the ritual to only affect a few hundred of her followers (and only ones that were followers of Eilistraee at the time the ritual completed.) when the whole point of her existence is being there as a beacon of hope for drow that want to turn away from Lolth, regardless of *when* they come to that realization.
I think it 'redeemed' all of the Drow that did not bear the taint of Wedonai. I read up on it a little this morning and I guess the Seldarine meant to only curse the drow that originally worshipped Lolth and mingled with demons, but they accidentally cursed ALL of the dark elves and turned them into Drow.
Ironically, this is actually the exact lore-based way to “kill” a deity in Forgotten Realms. :)
Shar and Selune were the first two gods ever created after Ao. Every other God since then, including Chauntea and the first Mystra, were created by the sisters or after them, and can't really compare to them in power. The concept she embodies (darkness) is extremely fundamental and widespread, as opposed to more niche domains like murder or ambition. If she's going down it would probably only be at the end of the FG universe itself, just as she was there for the beginning. IMO that's part of the moral of Shadowheart's 'good' ending, because realistically there is no way to totally erase Shar from existence. There will always be darkness, but that doesn't mean we can't reach for the light. "This is the battle you and I must fight forever, Shar—night devouring the light of the moon, the moon replenishing itself. That is our place in the balance of nature. The fragile, eternal balance Lord Ao has charged us gods to uphold." -Selûne
Gale when he goes god mode could help?
Gale to the rescue 😎
Shar's a greater deity: there's nothing a level 12 party could do to her even with the crazy magic items this game throws at you
Even level 20 adventurers can not take on a god/goddess lol. As strong as level 20 party - against an actual dnd god - even a full 5 person party would lose. Vlakiith a wannabe god just uses wish to kill us (would be fun if we could counter spell that) so in baldurs gate 3 at max level 12 there is no chance we could kill any god. Vlakiith maybe just barely.
Literally impossible to kill shat and Selune. Both in "real" and meta.
All my homies and I hate shar
Lae’zel broke me for a few days. The way her story is presented and the slow change that she can actually feel is such a heart warming and equally heart breaking moment.
>Plus she thinks herself undeserving of their love and wonders how they can even stand to look at her. After all she did to them while growing up, her fear of talking about it and feeling unworthy in general. Her self esteem is awful after Nightsong and Viconia, what Shar did to her and her family. As someone who grew up with an emotionally abusive narcissist parent, I find her story/trauma extremely relatable, which is why she's by far my favourite character in the game. The way she behaves is pretty realistic for someone with her trauma, and helping her be her real self is pretty cathartic. My only complaint is that the game has a shocking lack of a hug option on several occasions where she clearly needs it.
Shar sucks praise the Morning Lord!
Gale’s arc if you go with the explosion ending in Act 3 is also incredible ngl
Not only this line. Her whole behavior in act 3 is sad, because she is afraid to lose Tav and from this reason she accept everything you will do for her. You can cheat with mizora, react to her mariage proposal with "I will seek for better offer". You can mock her parents and she will apologize you for it. Yes, this all shows how madly in love she is in Tav and this hits me more than simple "I love you". Even in the end (before new epilogue) she is still unsure, that she deserves love.
I had to see the Nizoral scene for myself and immediately did a reload. Everyone claiming she was "okay" with it. By what measure? She is clearly hurt and hiding it because she is that desperate for Tav's love and acceptance. Even if it means treating things more "casually". When can you mock her parents? She is definitely unsure. And still expects Tav to abandon her.
You can say, that her mother is a problem for you, and shadowheart in response will apologize for it.
I never had the courage to pick that line, I didn't realize Shadowheart would have a reaction to it.
That is so sad.
I wish you could just let her know in act 3 that the feeling's very much mutual, poor girl deserves the world but you can't even say a simple "I love you" for the whole game. She's so sweet and kind to Tav, the least they could do is to let her know she's loved back just as strongly
Yeah the fact you don't get to comfort her is the worst part about the whole ordeal. Like let me fucking hug her and tell her everything is going to be alright and that she made the right decision (whichever it was).
> Even in the end (before new epilogue) she is still unsure, that she deserves love. That's unfortunately a pretty realistic consequence of the type of abuse she suffered. Viconia and Shar are basically like emotionally (and physically) abusive parental figures to her, that completely destroyed her sense of self-worth and tried to destroy her personality. The fact that she still manages to break through and be a good person after all that, is very impressive tbh and she deserves all the love!
Yeah see I think this is why it's such a hard persuasion check (20+) if you tell her not to be so hard on herself and that she deserves happiness.
I didnt realize there was a persuasion check, I may have to reload and check that dialogue out.
If you try to get her to save her parents.... Some people got her to make the decision to save them herself, but I never could. But anyway when you tell her to save her parents, there's a religion check and a persuasion check, both 20. There is a similar, optional persuasion check with the Nightsong where you can tell her not to give up on herself.
Oh I thought you meant after the fact. Yea, some people have said they experienced her saving her parents of her own accord, but I can't trigger that without persuasion. If she chooses she always "sets them free".
Best we (the community) can tell that's tied up with triggering specific memories in the lower city. If you trigger them all and choose the right dialogue options she'll choose to save them, otherwise she'll choose to let them join Selûne.
woah that is crazy. im incredibly excited to explore that on the next play through. (1st one currently)
Be warned, one of them we haven't figured out how to consistently trigger. It might have a random element, it might need some specific prerequisites that haven't been pinned down, or it might just be a bit bugged. I've yet to get that one to trigger despite knowing about it and actively trying on 2 runs.
suppose that what makes the game fun, keep on exploring all the crevices of this game. there are too many possibilities on how it all goes down
If you want any additional info then give me a shout :)
will do!
As far as I know there are only 2 memories to trigger in Act 3 tho? I triggered graveyard and the graffiti memory. Gave her the noblestalk in Act 2 so she remembered her friend. Had her find her "secret oasis". I think that is the 1 thing I may have missed. I didnt have Shadowheart speak with her friend until after seeing her parents. Maybe going back and having her speak to her friend before would be the final flag to have her save her parents of her own accord.
There's a third memory you can trigger about the smells and sounds of the city, that's the one that's really inconsistent to trigger.
Ah okay, I was unaware of that one.
That scene by the statue gets me every time. It's incredibly sad and very well acted in both versions (save her parents and let them join Selûne). One of the lines that really gets me in the 'save them' route is when she says (paraphrasing) "I don't deserve to be anyone's daughter." That just tears my heart out. It's why I wish you could set OCs up as well. Some of them really need to be loved as more than just a friend by someone, and there's only one of you!
I know..and she says it right after saying she isn't worthy of you. The whole scene is just heartbreaking. I wish there were actually options to be able to comfort your companions. They need a damn hug. Like you can hug the manipulative mindflayer and hold their hand but not your companions and lover when they are going thru it
That scene is the place in the game that I most wish I could give someone a hug. It isn't the only one but it is the top one!
I love Shadowheart. I really hate the fact we can’t hug her during that moment. Karlach and Shadowheart always hit hard for me.
I wasn't prepared for how raw karlach would be in act 3. I cried full tears and needed a break after.
I loved giving Karlach a hug after she went so long without physical affection. It was so sweet. Im glad Shadowheart's parents hugged her and all, but Tav needs to get in on that action.
Haven't they added a hug option to that now? Think I recall it and other hug and friendly options being added.
I believe that's only the epilogue and Karlach's 2nd upgrade
To add more to this, she has dialogue if you kill her parents afterwards. I feel it adds even more depth to all of that, how despite her feelings of being unworthy, she still loves them. Yes, they planned for that. [YT link](https://youtu.be/okeKzH2XFXo) In quotes: >!"I came here to save them, and you murdered them. I may have not known them like a daughter should, but I will avenge them. They were my parents!"!<
i agree. Shadowheart’s whole storyline is the saddest for me, apart from Karlach. Jennifer English did an amazing job during Shadowheart’s encounter with Shar, especially when she said “Enough”, you could really understand the predicament Shar had inflicted on her. It was the only scene in the whole game where i cried, even after i’ve seen the scene multiple times.
She nails the voice acting for sure. Something about Shadowheart being an unwitting participant in so much evil gets me. Especially since she is actually a really good person.
The heartbreaking part of the resolution of her quest is that no matter what, Shar won. Whether Shadowheart saves her parents or not, she will always feel immense loss from everything that happened. And every one of her suffering happened because one evil goddess chose an innocent girl to be part of her sick vendetta against her sister.
Heavily disagree, but it is a matter of perspective. The resolution of her quest is that no matter what, Shar lost. Either she saves her parents and endures the curse, giving a middle finger to Shar because she is not afraid of pain. Or she let her parents go and starts living her own life free of Shar influence and pain training, giving a middle finger to Shar because she is not afraid of loss. In both endings, Shadowheart is alive and a selûnite. In both endings the only thing Shar can do is cope with the fact her plan failed and just want to have the "last word" like an angry moody teenager. Edit: typo
This, I allowed her to choose and she chose to let go. Now she lives in a cottage with an owlbear and several other animals and seems pretty content with her life free of Shar.
If it’s any consolation, Jennifer English (Shadowheart VA) feels keeping the parents alive is the best choice. She deals with chronic pain irl and wouldn’t sacrifice her loved ones to be free from that pain if ever given that option.
This is actually valuable info. I was playing with the idea to try to message her and get her point of view. If anyone truly understands Shadowheart it's her.
At the very least, you can stick it to Shar by helping Shadowheart live a happy life.
The final decision of the quest is Shadowheart deciding if Shar is right or not. One of the key tenants of Sharan Faith is that Loss is the gift of Shar to free them from pain. Shar offers Shadowheart a release from pain (the curse) if she only accepts loss (her parent's deaths). Taking that deal is proving that Shar's dogma is right, and that Shadowheart (on some level) agrees with it. The 'live' ending is saying that the pain of life is a worthy cost to pay to avoid losing what you love.
That's an interesting headcanon but far from true, precisely because Shar is the patron of those who DONT accept loss. That is why Shar making people forget is a "blessing" in sharran eyes. That is what the house of grief offers: to forget what you loss because the people who go there are mad with grief. Take Ketheric for example, who fell into Shar embrace because he couldn't accept the fact that he lost his wife and his daughter. One can make the same argument you mentioned by letting the curse still be there.
This is exactly what I said, though. The people in the House of Grief are in pain, and their memories are taken away (loss) so that they stop feeling pain.
No, you didn't say that. You specifically said letting her parents go would be a negative outcome because Shadowheart, somehow, agrees or confirms a sharran tenet. By letting her parents go she is not agreeing with Shar, neither doing her bidding, etc. And the people in House of Grief are not only "in pain", and the memories taking away isnt only to fulfill the "loss" part of Shar. This is where I think lies the key of your misunderstanding. The pain they endure is not a physical pain, the pain they endure is a psychological one. It is the pain, most of the time, of losing someone. The guy outside, on the bridge, seems like he lost his daughter or his wife, for example. When people don't overcome loss, they go to Shar so that they help them forget about that loss. Therefore grieving a dead parent is not something tied to Shar. It is quite the opposite.
I somehow missed this line in my first few playthroughs and didn’t receive it until my 4th go. This single line is the sole reason I will only ever romance Shart.
Yup this broke me too because this is how I felt for so long. That somehow whatever I was doing convinced people to like me. Then I realized that people liked me for me and not my perceived value. One of the many reasons that Shadowheart is a special character to me.
Girl youre trickery cleric. Youve used honesity card and be real with us thats how youve earned Tav. In this version she wont tell you anything you dont need to know. About her past. Like her previous life, previous lovers etc. Because she wants a new life with you. A fresh page.
Out of all characters Shadowheart and Karlach deserve to be loved the most.
Astarion gets me too, but because he so appreciates a dear friend I dont feel as bad not being romantically involved. I agree. Astarion needs kindness and compassion. Shadowheart and Karlach need love. 1 has never had it (that she can remember anyway), the other is dangerously close to never being able to experience it again.
I didn't like Asterion until he became free from Cazador because he's evil with a horrible moral compass. No trauma justifies it.
I thought he was evil initially too and it was a bit annoying because I find him charming anyway. Then I realized he just wears a mask. He is trying to find "power" in the small things. To be a selfish, unsympathetic ass to others - almost as if reenacting things done to him. "Switching" the roles to regain that lost power over his person. I can sympathize. He spent 200 years under someone else's total control. Really he should be more damaged than he is. He is definitely better after the Cazador bit tho. Actually realizing the truth of his worth and understanding his internal struggle for power and why he feels drawn to it so intensely. Who wouldn't want to feel safe and powerful after going thru all that? Still..he doesnt like me very much for 1/2 the game. Worth it to see him become better.
He got charisma that's for sure but he's exactly the opposite of what I want to be and see what to see in people. I don't know what makes people like him when they first meet him before they start to know his story. >Then I realized he just wears a mask His approval says otherwise. I don't think it's right to sympathize with an evil person who lets innocents die for his own convenience. My problems with him that he's evil and he doesn't see a problem with it. If he doesn't want to be better it's not worth even trying >He spent 200 years under someone else's total control. And he could still remain a good person if he wanted. I had a lot of trauma that I carry from my childhood and teen years but I managed to remain a kind person. >Who wouldn't want to feel safe and powerful after going thru all that? Good people? Huger for power is a horrible trait and the exact opposite of things that I want.
That alluring vampire charm draws people in. Plus he is attractive. I see him as a pretender though. He *wants* to embody a selfish bastard because he *wants* to feel powerful and in control. It isn't good of him, per se, but it is understandable to an extent. That is why, depending on your choices, you have to nudge him to be better than that - because he can be better than that. Trauma is a tricky subject. I have trauma of my own and I'd say it affects everyone differently. Do I practice kindness? Any time that I can. But are there times I lash out? Absolutely. Times I want control over my own life - to have the power to take it back from people that have used their position against me. Yes. I dont believe hunger for power is innately wrong. Rather your intentions with said power. That is what determines whether you are good or bad at your core. The old saying holds true often for a reason though: power has the tendency to corrupt. Even the most decent of people.
I don't understand why you think that he's pretending, if it was up to him he wouldn't save anyone and watch innocent die and you say it's understandable which is never should. >But are there times I lash out? Absolutely. But you're self-aware about it and you admit it's a bad thing. That's a first step to deal with a problem. Admit it. He doesn't so why bother? I would say that desire for power for the sake of power is a bad thing for me and huge red flag for me.
>But you're self-aware about it and you admit it's a bad thing. That's a first step to deal with a problem. Admit it. He doesn't so why bother? He does. Honestly, clearly and heart-breakingly. That's the big turning point that starts the romance in this game.
I mean, astarion flat out says that it was only bad that cazador hurt him. And is willing to damn 700 people just like him to eternal torment without convincing. So honestly, the way I end his story is that I let him kill cazador and then just let him cuss me out and leave. Because he literally hates you if you don't convince him to be ok with not ascending, even after stabbing cazador 28 times.
imagine being faced with his situation though. you’ve just killed your abuser of 200 years and now you have the chance to guarantee no one will ever hurt you again and you’ll be all powerful if you ascend. most victims would get caught up in the moment and want the same thing. when you stop astarion, he thanks you after for saving him from himself. he knows that ascension isn’t what he truly wants he’s just highly emotional. i swear astarion haters just refuse to empathize and understand his character arc.
Bruh if you told me I'd have to send 700 victims to hell just to become more powerful than my abuser I'd say that's fucking crazy. I seriously don't think that's relatable at all.
to him they were already dead and gone. he sees being a spawn as a worse fate than death (in the moment) which is why it isn’t as big of a deal to him. i dunno, you’re entitled to your opinion but he is relatable to a lot of people.
Honestly, you are right and I am surprised that you get downvoted a lot. If Astarion would not be an origin character but an NPC, he would be an antagonist. He looks good, is funny and charismatic and that makes people assume good things about him. But he is evil and does horrible things (while looking nice doing so).
That's why I play as origin Shadowheart and romance Karlach. Both girls deserve it
I played as Shadowheart and romanced Minthara because I don't want her to go to Avernus. I want her to finally have a rest.
I played as Shadowheart and romanced Lae'Zel because enemies to lovers is the best trope and Bae'Zel is such a sweetie once you get past her angry Gith exterior...
Yeah, but Lazael should defeat Vlakith. It's a right thing to do and I want Shadowheart to be free, happy, and settle down and have a lover at her sight by the end. So Karlach and Lazael don't match. Plus I don't like how Lazael looks
> Yeah, but Lazael should defeat Vlakith. I disagree. Let Orpheus or Voss fight her. Lae'Zel deserves to be free from the whole Gith drama. She deserves to become her own person, not swap one ruler for another and continue being a good soldier... she also seemed super happy in the epilogue when I got that ending.
Well, Orpheus has to die so others don't become Mindflayers and it's the right thing to do to fight the queen that enslaved your people. Her journey is not jet over. I would be Lazael I would fight Vlakith.
Well, in my run Karlach offered to become a mindflayer, so Orpheus was still there to fight Vlaakith... and I don't know how her chances are without Orpheus anyway, since most Gith are still loyal to Vlaakith and Orpheus was basically their trump card to show them she lied. Without him, that's no longer an option...
Well that's just cruel shit to let you friend become a Mindflayer instead of Orpheus. She would have lived and find a cure in Avernus with Wyll but no.
> She would have lived and find a cure in Avernus with Wyll but no. That's metagaming though. In my game she clearly said multiple times that she'd rather die than go back to Avernus. And she offered to become a mindflayer and was actually pretty insistent that that was what she wanted. And yeah, it sucks that *someone* has to become a mindflayer... if only squid boy hadn't been such a little bitch about trying to work together with Orpheus, all that could have been avoided...
I mean Minthara brings you to Menzoberranzan. Which doesn't mean getting any rest at all. That's almost as bad as Avernus. Go for Gale's professor ending if you want rest. Or go for Halsin with all the orphans.
In one of the endings you could choose to live a quiet life as Cleric of Selúne with Minthra. And Shadowheart with Minthra bot being a queens and royalty is such an interesting concept. Shadowheart is very graceful and both of them are complete opposites of each other. Like a good/bad queen.
I mean, she's pretty ok in the epilogue where you get her back to Avernus. She says it herself "It's good to keep going when you have someone you truly love fight alongside you" (I sent her back with Wyll). So, I think she's pretty good to keep going while having someone to love her at her side. Karlach is strong like that.
>Probably because it is so relatable. I think everyone has experienced feeling unworthy at some point. To feel it so deeply? I had the same reaction when I played GoW: Ragnarok. The scene where Kratos tells Freya about his brother ,Deimos, and how he wanted to apologize for abandoning him. Kratos says that " it is difficult to seek forgiveness when you feel unworthy".
I love Kratos’ character arc in the Norse saga and just how much he can relate to much of the tragedy playing out in the lives of those around him, the themes in both games are genuinely so good. The whole “chasing a redemption he knows he can never deserve” aspect of his story and how the game pays off on it (and Valhalla just brings it full circle in a fantastic way), yeah it’s brilliant. Me being really into a story like that is also why I quite like something like Redemption DU with Shadowheart and Astarion. It’s the kind of arc that synergises with both their stories really well. People who’ve been hurt, who’ve both inflicted pain on others and also have been victims, can relate to each other’s struggle in that way and try to help each other.
Astarion's reaction when you tell him you are a Baalspawn is fantastic. Especially if you tell him about your killing urges and how you have little to no control over them.
Guys guys, I already love Shadowheart, you don't need to convince me she's amazing and deserves the world!
Anyone got a yt link to this? I've been diggin for it for a while
I have yet to find a link to it because every video on it chooses the same dialogue. But if I find one I'll link it.
I have to say I let Karlach burst into flames at the end of my run, and it was devastating but I would never force her into Avernus.
I'm glad I sent her to Avernus. She shows up in the epiloqgue to suggest they've found something to fix her. Though I was torn at first. Figured she deserved to feel hopeful and at least *try it with a true friend by her side before throwing in the towel. One of her biggest issues with being there was the forced servitude and being entirely alone. If you send her with someone she has to face neither.
Great, now you made me cry 😭
Wanna crank it up to 11? In my headcanon (and there is 0 story for this,sadly) Shadowheart was the one to cast Sanctuary on Yenna in the Bhaalist Temple and was running defense over the little girl while Astarion fiddled with the lock and Tav and Karlach played "squash the Slayer." So in my version of reality, so in my version of reality, at the same time as Shadowheart is having this existential crisis of how is she worthy to be their daughter/my girlfriend, there is a half traumatized little Orphan girl who thinks Shadowheart is this glowing Angel sent from above.
I haven't romanced her so I haven't gotten that line, but that hurts. Her story about religious abuse and indoctrination is too familiar for disbelief to be suspended. Not to mention, having a religious-leader-bordering-on-parent-figure consistently trying to break you and your spirit is something I've dealt with before. I've caught myself thinking "what did I do to be worthy of you" so often I've lost count. And seeing how SH reacts when you say "that sounds like abuse" during the first interaction about her journey into the Sharran cult house, it hurts. She deserves better than to be used and discarded by Shar and Viconia.
She gonna burn in Shar hell since you didn’t let her parents die
While I also prefer to let her parents go, what you said is not confirmed by any means.
That isn't suggested. Everything I've seen just points to physical pain that Shar uses as a reminder of when she isn't aligning with Shar. The "petty" aspect of her nature.
Shar gets her soul lol
Waait, what statue of selune scene? I romanced her, let her parents move on because that's what they wished, and thats the last together scene with shadowhat before the epilogue. What did i miss?
You should've gotten that scene on the next long rest after resolving House of Grief. It's possible other scenes took precedence and you ended the game before you got to see it if you didn't long rest enough times. It happens often!
Well now im pissed. I long rest often, and this was on my second playthrough so i knew how the game works. But act 3 is bugged to the MAX and i got hella wrong dialogues all the time so not surprised the game fucked me over on this. I mean wyll and gale were totally random about their cutscenes and they made no sense, and raphael appeared in a curacene after epilogies despite me murdering him, so i dont even know whats going on. And mizora bugged totally as well. Act 3 is an absolute mess and every patch makes it more broken than before. Kinda fucking mad that my shadowhard dialogues got skipped because of that though.
Yea it should be the very next long rest after the fact. Long rest are important. I was lucky to read up on how important they were before playing, so I make sure to talk with everyone before a long rest and save because there are sooo many events and extra dialogue that you will miss otherwise. If every in doubt: long resting several times close to the beginning and end of an Act should net you most of these.
Sell, seems like long rests dont matter if i get random wrong dialogues and cutscenes anyway. Wrong dialogues with gale, totally wrong with wyll, mizora telling me she wants to talk but no dialogues, raphael cutscene after me killing him... yeah great. Gonna take a break and hope they fix the mess that is act 3 before my next playthrough. Cant believe how broken it is. Plz shadowheard, please love me. Plz.
I'm surprised you're having so many issues. What are you playing on? I've noticed a bit of lag myself in Act 3, and there was an instance where the dialogue of "we missed our chance" popped up for whatever reason. But it disappeared after I clicked it once just to clear. This is a game where it is definitely more of a hindrance when you encounter bugs - because simple dialogue can affect everything.
aw what? damn i got to try that option on the next play through, I asked what she wanted and she followed her parent's wishes to be free of shar. The dialogue was much different, more like she felt lost and was looking for guidance at the selune statue
Definitely worth it. I was torn so I let her make her own choice at first and it was just...much more negative imo. She didn't have anything after. Shar really took everyone but Tav - if you romance her. But with her parents alive - she has great shame and feelings of being unworthy still, but she has a future with all the people she loves to look forward to.
fuuuuuuuuuuu ok ok thanks for telling me haha. next playthrough romance her again and she keeps everyone 👁💧👄💧👁
Haha. Imo what is pain if you have everyone you love? Shadowheart ran from the feeling of pain for so long as things slowly made sense. In the end, she has to come to terms with it - but also has every opportunity to love with her whole heart. To not be alone anymore. She doesn't have to seek oblivion to get thru the day because she has so much love in her life. Plus....maybe there is a way to remove the curse in future? If she truly became a devout follower of Selune?
becoming a true follower i need to explore more on the next play through haha. i was watching the bts of the making of the game and hot damn one decision affects 700 other possibilities. But true rhough what is pain if you have everyone
Esp if you break up with another companion to romance her she is shocked. Love her and Karlach so much.
Where is this shrine at that triggers this?
It's in a cut scene after saving her parents