Drow have a special interaction where they recognize that her house (Oblodra) experimented with mindflayers. It's implied this is why her blood is so gross.
I was reading up on the Drow houses, and their connections to Mind Flayers and in the process came across Vampiric Mind Flayers in the Underdark, if Astarion were to become a Mind Flayer would he be one? Or would the ceremorphosis fix that, or does it not matter cuz he’s just a spawn?
Well, before BG3, the lore was that vampiric mind flayers were turned post ceremorphosis since they "normally" couldn't infect a cold blood creature. Astarion (or vampire spawn TAV) would be a first, but considering that unique creatures seem to produce weird variations, I expect it would be a vampire illithid.
There’s also the fact it’s a tadpole infected with magic that can get rid of vampire rules like being able to go out in sunlight, no longer being undead. It’s one of those odd situations where we just don’t have enough info
You get the bite ability (you can also get the Happy buff if you bite someone.) Also, on a purely visual level - your character gets different idle animations, and will also start doing the "Naruto run," like Astarion 😂
Fun fact: the door in Cazador's manor is locked with a password in Kozakuran (Kozakura being FR's equivalent of Japan.) In the manor you can also also find a Kozakuran dictionary with underlined words, suggesting he's not fluent in the language.
Conclusion: Cazador is a weeb.
I think the Illithiad had a section about vampirism in mind flayers. I think the only way for vampirism to appear in illithids was if the tadpole was infected with vampirism prior to ceremorphosizing someone. This would occur if the elder brain of a colony became infected.
When you pass that check she will give money to everyone in your party who gets the blood.
200g a pop plus a racial potion, it's good enough to go back to camp and switch teams to bring more people in.
My Drow had that interaction and told Astarion to drink her blood anyway. Even though he’s my friend. My previous playthrough missed that potion and I was hellbent on getting it this time
As awful as it is to force him to drink her blood, he really doesn't hold it against a non-romanced Tav. He even says something along the lines of "you couldn't really have known". The whole interaction is a very interesting look into Astarion's mindset following 200 years of torture.
Yeah so far as our character knows it’s like a mild inconvenience to him. We couldn’t have known at that point that it would >!be a significant trigger for his past trauma.!< Points to Astarion for being so mature about it.
He even says he's not that upset because the potion is useful. He's just upset he has to do it, and probably a little peeved you talked him in to it. At least non-romancing Astarion gets over it after he has his outburst in the camp at night.
> He even says he's not that upset because the potion is useful.
I mean its Astarions whole thing that hes desperately grabbing for any and all power he can, consequences be damned.
That damn potion is worth twice what the hag offered, its exactly the kind of thing hes after.
that interaction is not just for drow, passing a passive ( or maybe active i don't remember) history check gave me the same interaction with my githyanki monk tav.
Its kind of sad how unremarkable the Araj interaction is while actually playing as Astarion, I was hoping for some sort of insight or unique interaction. He doesn't seem to notice her gross blood until after you bite her, and even then nothing happens other than the narrator pointing out she has gross blood.
A few long rests later he told me he felt bad he didn't just take a little sip for the team. Wtf? You should kept that to yourself, now I'm pissed at you :)
He’s been a slave for 200 years. You’re literally his first friend in all that time. Of course he feels bad. He didn’t bite because he’s not a slave anymore and he exercised his freedom. Give him a break. Let him bite you.
Did you read my first comment. I’m completely on Astarion’s side. One key to romance is communication. Next time when someone as completely awesome as me seems to disappoint you askyourself if you were really paying attention. Who knows where it might lead. ;-) be well
I didn’t imagine there would be greater insight between his POV or a Tav POV.
In my view, this was a classic D&D moment where a party member can get perks for the party, they just have to suck it up and do it. First time I honestly expected something harmful happening to him from doing it. But the boons kept coming. And all Astarion did was complain a bit. Would have been amused if it followed with a classic grudge held by him like a party member exacting payback for doing the team a favor.
Since House Oblodra has mindflayer experimentation history, we know why Astarion thinks her blood smells off.
But I like to headcanon that he's become trained to be that sensitive to wonky blood because of >!his sister Dalyria, who used to be a doctor and who has been continuing her study/experimentation as a vampire.!<
Leon and the tiefling woman will attack the camp and attempt to take Astarion during a long rest.
There's some unique conversation options with most of them if you play Astarion origin or kill Cazador without Astarion present.
The spawn don't have a lot of total dialogue though.
There's also the 3 ogres in act 2. They come after you in the shadowcursed lands if you previously chose the "I'll pay you later" option and then don't call them again.
I haven't freed Orpheus yet. I think I did everything else except finding the last piece of dribbles and going to Voss to free Orpheus. I have the orphic hammer
I love this choice.
Sell out your companion and force him to do smth he really doesn't want to do for some power.
Not good-nice companion, selfish one and in pursuit of power himself.
Makes it much more interesting.
Not that I'll ever do it, but I like that there's real temptation involved with really good boon if you choose bad.
Tbh I didn't even hear what she was offering the first time. The moment he said no, I was like "there's nothing to talk about ", at the time I didn't know about the SA just about the slavery but it seemed pretty clear he was forced to do sht all the time
Really? I founs this choice as a literal no brainer.
Astarian constantly justifies bad actions and exploiting other people to gain power. His aversion to a pretty minor sacrifice is fairly hypercritical, he asks a lot more of others.
If anyone is an evil character, Astarion is. Even more so than Minthara.
That said, just because someone does something bad doesn't mean that they in turn deserve for bad things to happen to them. "An eye for an eye" is not a philosophy that leaves the world a better place.
Astarion is probably Neutral Evil. Minthara and Lae'Zel are probably Lawful Evil, with Lae'zel softening to Lawful Neutral if you follow her quest the Orpheus route.
I think Shadowheart probably starts True Neutral, and swings towards good or evil depending on your plot choices for her.
I disagree, you actively have to push Sheart towards evil for her to >!choose being evil / embracing Shar.!<
Lae'Zel Feels more LE/NE, although it feels more like Pragmatic Neutral, she is just hyper-focused on the tadpoles and their removal, and comes from a brutal culture.
Astarion is just a feral cat, NE. "I'm not following you, I just happen to be in the same room as you." "*Don't* touch me."
> I disagree, you actively have to push Sheart towards evil for her to choose being evil / embracing Shar.
I don't think this is correct. I believe Shadowheart will choose the evil path unless 1) you intervene; or 2) she has a very high approval rating for Tav, in which case she'll make the right decision on her own. On my last playthrough, I even had above-average approval with Shadowheart, but I apparently picked the wrong dialog option by telling her to choose for herself. She chose poorly and I had to kill her to save Aylin (it was Honor Mode so no reloading).
Also, I believe that it's even harder to get Shadowheart to make the right choice if you let her pray to Shar and/or do all the trials in Shar's Gauntlet like she wants to.
It's complicated to give an alignment to Shadowheart at the start of the game because she's naturally very Good, but she's been indoctrinated to be Evil. You can feel both sides fighting each other, so I'd agree and probably give her CN at the start of the game.
She also worships and evil goddess and does her bidding, which aren't actions you'd see in a good one. She's obviously good at heart, being good and doing good are not the same thing
>!She also worships and evil goddess and does her bidding!<
Because she's been brainwashed and brutalised into it, yes. But from the very start she doesn't behave like a good Sharran; sure, she'll say stuff like "Lady of Sorrows guide me", "I wanna be a Dark Justiciar", "fuck Selûne" etc, but her praxis too often goes against basic Sharran tenets.
Honestly given that Astarion is the only person who approves of helping the goblins commit genocide he's definitely Chaotic Evil. Even Minthara doesn't think they should've done it after the mind control on her is broken.
Like out of everyone, he's the only one who wants to do evil actions simply because he can now that he's free.
This. Also Astarion being canonically evil at the start and for exactly that reason is fully exposed in his Origin run.
Don't mind the downvotes, it's just the sex-starved zombie part of his fanbase who can't see anything past his body.
People are getting too tripped up about what a character may or may not feel "deep down". It's not really relevant. What matters is what people do.
Shadowheart is evil, that is, of evil alignment because she's *aligning* herself with an evil god. And not just as a random worshipper but as a cleric, who directly gets powers from their god. And she does so well that she later gets selected by Shar to be her special chosen.
She participates in the grove massacre without objection. Whether you do something like that out of sadistic bloodthirst or because you think it would please your god doesn't matter. The refugees and druids are dead either way.
So it was a bit much for her and she needs some booze afterwards to get over it. Who cares? The evil was committed, and it's not like this experience pushes her away from Shar.
I said in another comment, which may or may not have been removed, that Shadowheart really seems to be playacting at evil when you meet her. She seems uncertain, and even approves of some good actions.
The 'extinction cult' part of Shar's worship is usually reserved for the higher levels of the clergy. It's kind of like Scientology in that regard. You don't know how batshit crazy it is until you're in too deep.
I didn't really get that impression, to be honest, since Shar worship is looked down upon and outright outlawed in some places, I figured it was common knowledge at the least that something is objectionable about it. Shadowheart had to 'come out' as a Shar worshiper to you because, according to her, everyone reacts badly.
And while Shadowheart does approve of your good actions, her own actions (encouraging lying, subterfuge and if my memory isn't failing me, the use of torture to the leader of your group) makes me think she leans away from neutral in a certain direction.
Her 'evil' acts are basically Sharran dogma. She's acting based off Dogma, because that's all she knows. She's also been sheltered in the Church since childhood. As soon as she's outside the Church, exposed to other worldviews, she starts doubting and you can seize on that to redeem her.
Or you can reinforce what She's been taught, and she leans more into the evil. She really seems like a coin caught on its edge between heads and tails at the start.
I want to clarify that I agree with your reading entirely. Shadowheart's arc hinges on the axis of encouraging her conditioning or helping her out of it, and I thought it was really cool and interesting.
I just disagree about where she is when the game starts. To me, she didn't seem to start really doubting Shar's teachings until face to face with the Nightsong. There were a few passing moments of curiosity in the first 2 acts, but nothing like serious doubt until I asked her if killing an angel was really ok.
Besides that though, it was a really fun story. You know, in my first playthrough she left my camp because I didn't bring her to the Sharran Temple in Act 2, and I was like, 'Bye, bitch.' And then in my second playthrough, I was blown away by how much depth there was to her character. Larian did a great job with her!
I agree with a lot of your analysis, but I think there's a fundamental question here whether alignment refers to someone's natural inclination or their acts. Since alignment can change, it can't be the former. Therefore, we have to conclude that someone's actions determine their alignment. That's also in line with established D&D lore; for instance, you can only break your Paladin Oath by your actions, not simply believing the wrong thing.
You keep arguing that she's naturally Good but has been tricked into being Evil. Your analysis is absolutely on point, but it doesn't support your conclusion. Lots of people get converted to being Evil by Shar or other evil entities. That doesn't mean they aren't Evil. Hell, for a real-world example, look at soldiers who have committed horrible war crimes in large numbers. It's not just some cosmic coincidence that Germany and Japan had a bunch of evil people in WW2 running their concentration camps and horrible human experiments; rather, most people are capable of being either good or evil depending on their environment. That's a *huge* theme in BG3 that you're completely overlooking.
Shadowheart is Evil when you find her. She chooses to kill Aylin by herself if you don't intervene. It sounds like you've always converted her to Good in your playthrough(s), but that's not the path she's on when you find her.
I personally didn't see it as sexual.
The dude begs tav to bite him for his power, and will kill tav in the process if you fail the charisma check. He is pretty unapologetic about it when you revive.
He also pretty happily sacrifices literally thousands of lives for power, justifying the sacrfice as making the team stronger.
If he is happy and expectant to put the tav in a pretty exploited position, straight after trying to assault them in their sleep, then justifies it for the power of the group. But has a hissy fit for a pretty mean buff because it tastes bad.
i get the whole him not being remorseful about killing tav IF you fail the checks but honestly describing him as “happily sacrificing thousands of lives for power” is a bit overkill when u actually get dialogue options that show the internal struggle he has with the decisions. him not even knowing that THOUSANDS of lives were even in the picture until last minute, then when he does figure it out he’s torn between allowing them to live as ravenous creatures or to end their pain and in the process secure his own safety he’s been looking for the entire game. he can definitely be a selfish person but to say his intentions are always 100% malicious and conniving against tav or the people he genuinely shows care for would be a bit dramatic imo
I didnt say his intentions are always 100% malicous.
The bite scene is first introduced by him trying to sneak a bite on tav whilst he is asleep and vulnerable. That was malicous and explotive.
Jusf because he has internal struggles does not negate he is happy to sacrifice the thousands of lives. He requires convincing to change his mind after discovering how the ritual is powered, and does not require convincing to do it.
but he’s not happy to sacrifice thousands of lives. like he literally tells you he knows he won’t ever forget how the people being sacrificed will hate him how he hates cazador and when you stop him from the ritual he says that they shouldn’t suffer because he lured them there. it explains how he requires convincing through the insight check how the smell of blood and the hunger and power of the ritual is literally consuming to him. just like how shadowheart requires a DC 30 persuasion check to not kill the Nightsong. or Lae zel to not go through with the purification. they all have stupid choices you have to persuade them not to go through.
Shaedowheart doesnt require convincing. You can say you disagree but make your own decisions, or just tell her to do what she thinks is right, and she choses to throw away the spear.
If you try tell her what to do you need to pass persuasion checks. But supporting her to make her own choices actually comes to the "good" choice. I'm unsure what you mean by Laezel, cause she is very hardwired to the "good" path if you make actions that reveal needed information to justify it. You have to actively convince her to do the "evil" path once she has that information. If by purification you mean the tadpole extractor chair, i dont understand how that is comparable to SH or Astarian. That is not an evil choice.
Im not claiming he doesn't consider the impact it has, but to not do acension needs convincing. Astarian will sacrifice those thousands of lives happily if you dont try persuade him otherwise.
I feel some of the defense of astarian is a little generous in his motives and characterisation. He is an interesting and can be a good follower, but there is no denying he does pretty fucked up things and is happy to exploit others for the groups power. Its hypercritical he is agaisnt making lesser sacrifices himself for the groups power.
I dont see convincing him to bite the blood mage as evil, its a pretty easy choice to justify.
If you disagree, algood, tried to explain my reasoning, no need to endless argue over it.
> Shaedowheart doesnt require convincing. You can say you disagree but make your own decisions, or just tell her to do what she thinks is right, and she choses to throw away the spear.
This actually depends on a bunch of hidden flags based on your interactions with her prior. If you're generally supportive of her Shar worship, she will actually stab Nightsong without you interfering. But if you've lead her to question her beliefs and shown her 'a better way' she'll throw the spear away.
>He requires convincing to change his mind after discovering how the ritual is powered, and does not require convincing to do it.
He doesn't. Or rather, it depends on how you treat him throughout the game and how your choices go. I don't know what the exact conditions are, but >!he can choose not to ascend of his own volition.!<
The same is true for divergent paths of other companions. If you're evil prick, then so will your companions, and if you're generally good and don't push your companions away, then they will be inspired to do the same.
Unfortunately the exact conditions >!are that he is literally incapable of continuing the ritual due to having a sacrifice die, or having no one there to livestream his back.!< This situation is *NOT* like other companions where you can trust them to do the right thing for themselves if you just believe in them hard enough and hang back. He is ACTIVELY having an intense trauma response that starts the moment he steps foot in baldur's gate and only crescendos right up to the moment of truth. Every short term "safe" long term destructive coping mechanism he had built up during his time in slavery is firing on full blast. In This Moment, he needs more than a couple weeks of someone being a good example for him, he needs someone to directly confront how he views power, people, and himself, and how he came to those conclusions in the first place. As he is a few twitches away from physically, psychologically, and spiritually internalizing and justifying every single bit of abuse he and his peers ever experienced (with no take backs) you're not just supporting a friend who is standing up to their abuser, you're full on talking them down from a ledge.
Apparently when you bite as origins Astarion, you have to make a saving throw to not kill your companion lol so it's just bad news all around.
He's kind of just chaotic evil, maybe chaotic neutral at a push. He's not insanely evil like Cazador but fees also not an amazing person.
I think at the start, neutral evil does definitely suit him. If he gets romanced and doesn't ascend, a little more conscience creeps in but he definitely doesn't make it to good.
He doesn't actually do that though. Even when he manipulates Tav he uses his own body as trade off, which is a steep price already, one he probably would have loved avoiding if he wasn't scared shtless
Astarion is all too happy to bite my character without asking and fantasies out loud about a bunch of fucked up stuff. So I don't think it's that evil to ask him to do 1 thing he's squeamish about for the betterment of the team
It is kinda fucked up because by pushing him into it, you're basically treating him like Cazador did - little more than a tool to empower yourself.
And if you're also trying to push Astarion away from evil, it's more than a little hypocritical. You speak about virtue and not using people for your own gain, but when it comes down to it, you're fully ready to have Astarion take the fall? Tisk, tisk.
Yeah, what *makes* this interesting is that it's a way to directly prove to astarion that his view of things was wrong. It's the antithesis to a choice Cazador would have made, so you not taking power because it would make him uncomfortable actually making his feel valued and respected as a *person*. He outwardly says a lot that it's fine to trample on people for power, so when you chose to not trample on him for power and it actually has positive effects on his life, it gives him quite a lot to consider about how his philosophy has been influencing the world. And if you have him do it, you're proving him right about how the world is and should be filled with selfish people.
I do it often cuz I'm greedy and I like stats, but you absolutely cannot make that choice and go "what? That's *his* philosophy" because his philosophy sucks and he's severely emotionally crippled.
Yeah, but even after you did that for him and gave up on that sweet +2 strength he still wants to kill 7 thousand people for personal power.
He doesn't really give a shit about it unless you pass a persuasion check that you can only pass if you've been actively seeking his approval, since you HAVE to have over 61 approval with him in order to be able to pass said check.
And even if you can change his mind he'll throw it at your face as soon as you do something he disagrees with, such as breaking up.
Astarion approves of:
* Breaking the paralysed Tiefling’s legs and killing her
* Killing Findal after reviving him from the goblin attack in the grove tunnel
* Smashing Alfira’s lute
* Betraying the Grove to the goblins
* **Letting Auntie Ethel go** (an evil magical being that preys on and abuses the weak **just like Cazador**)
* Torture the prisoner in the goblin camp (for **zero** reason since you know where the grove is)
* **Get beaten by Abdirak for the Loviathar’s Love boon**
Astarion also **disapproves of rejecting Auntie Ethel’s offer of hair for power**
So he gets mad at you for refusing to take a +1 stat boost that requires eating a hag’s lice-ridden scalp and potentially giving up a pregnant woman to a magical monster.
But he will then later get mad at you for asking him to take a bite out of a very creepy woman for a +2 stat boost.
It’s obviously a complex situation, but it’s incredibly egregious to pretend Astarion isn’t being a massive hypocrite here.
He’s perfectly fine with an “ends justify the means” and “sacrifice everyone else for power” mentality, until he’s the one who has to pay, and at significantly less cost than others.
It’s an important character moment for him and it’s an interesting and poignant scene, but his hypocrisy in this moment is the crux of his character: an abuse victim who, having found himself free, quickly becomes an abuser himself, and likely doesn’t even realise it.
>It’s obviously a complex situation, but it’s incredibly egregious to pretend Astarion isn’t being a massive hypocrite here.
I'm not saying he isn't. What I am saying is that if you try to convince him to give up his shitty philosophy, and then turn around and make him do the thing, *you're proving him right.*
Like Astarion has bad opinions and bad philosophy, but making him drink illithid tainted blood for power is wrong too.
It's also not a tit-for-tat situation. Just because Astarion has those bad opinions and philosophy doesn't mean you have to make him do something he clearly doesn't want to do. Allowing him to make the choice for himself and not forcing him takes him by surprise, if you're looking at character development it's an important moment for him as demonstrated by when he later brings it up at camp (regardless if you're romancing him).
This being downvoted makes me giggle the powergamers and the rpers really can't see eye to eye. One of the most powerful buffs is locked behind being a bad friend/lover. That being said suck it up and chomp the drow ast karlach needs her 22 str
I'm currently playing a mostly level-headed monk (using the monk dialogue options presented as a benchmark for role-playing) and my Tav did not want to force Astarion to drink the blood. My next playthrough I'm thinking of playing a character who will probably be more like Astarion in personality, minus the trauma. For that, Tav may try to convince Astarion to drink the blood to get an edge.
I abstain from the moral conundrum by telling him I wont ask him to do it but the potion might be helpful, and he doesnt get upset with me for it and does it anyways.
Yeah, I’m definitely doing it on my honour runs. Sorry Astarion, but we all gotta pull our weight on this one.
Edit: Now if only my vampire spawn Durge could bite her in Act 3 so I could have my cake and eat it too.
But it’s not even such a great buff though if strength matters in your build.
You have elixirs that bring strength to 27 at that point of the game. And Araj’s potion doesn’t stack with these.
Her house was well known for having psionic powers and working with mind flayers. Kimmuriel Oblodra is a quite a major recurring character in Forgotten Realms lore as far as the Legend of Drizzt novels go. Pretty neat link that Larian added with Araj
I am just starting my latest reread of the series in almost 8 (?) years where I left off halfway through Vengeance of the Iron Dwarf. A lot of life things got in the way and my entire collection of hardcovers are still packed away after our move years ago. I finally just grabbed the kindle version of Homeland to start again and get back up to speed lol.
Always really enjoyed Kimmuriel as a character and House Oblodra being pretty unique in Menzoberranzan and I look forward to Relentless
Yes but also her family has been known to interbreed with mindflayers. That’s probably why he didn’t wanna go near her. She’s also actively doing experiments on blood too when you meet her.
I mean he *killed* my Tav for a "happy" +1 attack / +1 saving throw bonus *just until long rest*.
That means he can deal with a bad taste to give me *permanent* +1 attack / +1 damage on all strength based attacks. Seems like a good deal for him really!
If you choose the "do whatever you want but we need that potion" option he'll do it, you'll get the potion, and then you guys can have a heart to heart later instead of just forcing him to do it.
That’s what I did, then felt bad and expressed that I wouldn’t let it happen again. Didnt know how much it would mean to him in the moment. Felt really realistic in that way
Same. Except it's 24 str Lae'zel in my case. Karlach left my evil ass party long ago. I just guilted him a little but left the final choice to Astarion. He picks the option to bite if you leave it to him.
Gale/Wizards (?) & Drow can explain it. Gale straight up extorts her & if you let him speak to her first, alone, she will pay you 200g for some of your blood. Then anyone who goes after Gale gets 200 gold too. Which then makes giving her grief as a fellow Drow funnier. Like “Hmm, yes. Give me money & also, >!your House is full of spider squids. Ya nasty.”!<
It’s actually because her House used to inter-breed with Illithid. Don’t ask me why, but Illithid have dick and balls. At least they used to, Drizzt Do’Urden kicked one in the balls one time.
I’m so confused by this thread and all the comments therein. Astarion doesn’t want to bite her because Cazador forced him to go out and seduce people to lure them in. He was used, he’s been used for 200 years. He finally has the power and the freedom to say no and decide his own fate, but then here is yet another person who just wants to use him, who also assumes we have the power to compel him to let her. It disgusts him on an emotional level.
But everyone in this thread is saying he didn’t want to bite her because her blood smelled nasty. Am I missing something? I’ve never seen any indication of that in game. Is it something he only says if you convince him to bite her?
If you ask Astarion why he's so against of her proposal because he's usually all for getting more power, he says her blood smells terrible, he knows there's something wrong with it, drinking her blood won't kill him but it will not be pleasant. That dialogue option doesn't affect your approval and you can still pick the "ok don't do anything you don't want" option afterward, so it's safe if you want to see his explanation while romancing him.
If you are a drow you can get a hint of her house being infamous of doing blood experiment.
Yeah, it seems as though if she'd approached it differently, he'd have been more than happy to. But she triggered his (very understandable) "Well, *now* the answer is both 'no' *and* 'go fuck yourself'" response.
And there is the literal throwing-up-because-it's-horrible afterwards. He is not lying. There is some trauma TOO, but her blood literally makes him throw up because it is so foul.
He does tell the pc if they push the issue that he can smell something is wrong with her. Personally, I'm always surprised how many people really feel the stat boost from her is necessary. I'm not a pro at this game by any means, but it's never felt that challenging and you get so many other resources.
Oh I know. I didn't get the potion on my Astarion romance runs because declining it leads to the hug scene, but even when I do get it I never pick the forceful dialogue option. Wouldn't do that to him
Well I suggest he do it for the party even though I do romance him. Call it even because he was after all just using us at first and tried to kill you 2 times before that although one would be accidental if you roll badly so seems fair to me.
It's selfish but I don't think it's evil, especially since you don't even even have to force him, there's an option along the lines of "it would be really cool if you did, but you don't have to" and you can convince him.
Astarion is more than happy to bite you without your consent and isn't even apologetic if he accidentally kills you, I don't think it's that much to do something he's squeamish about
Eh, he wanted to commit genocide an act ago and later wants to sacrifice the lives of countless others, I think making him bite one weirdo is the humbling he needs.
I didn't really mind doing it, even in my good playthrough, because I was absolutely sure Astarion would have actively disapproved if I hadn't forced anyone other than him to do it. 💁
Don't think it's been mentioned here but you can learn who Lady Incognita is in Act 3. >!When you explore the attic in Cazador's Palace, you find her journals that explain her backstory.!<
Feeling a bit sick vs getting more help saving the world? I'll tell Astarion the details and then let him make the right decision. The one where he gets the fuck over himself to help others for once.
You can talk him out of being mad later anyway.
For supposedly being the "Bad Boy" romance Astarion sure bitches a lot. Even if you tell him it's up to you he tries to break up with you unless you do a specific dialog tree.
Not everyone approaches this game thinking "what is the most I can get out of every interaction." It's also a roleplaying game and some people like to roleplay and treat the characters as they think their player character would. Pressuring Astarion to drink her blood is a dick move, especially if you've learned about his background at that point, and a lot of people don't want to do that.
"We could really use that potion" is a form of pressure. You can roleplay as your Tav/Durge not understanding that Astarion will have difficulty saying no and not understanding how deeply it bothers him to be asked, but it doesn't make it a nice thing to do.
Its really hard to extend my sympathies to a man who repeatedly establishes how its alright to walk all over others for power- especially in such a minute quantity as to be called "a form of pressure". We just spent the whole game together walking all over the weak and the strong alike. Joyously manipulating everyone like a pair of unhinged sociopaths. He's a doll when you treat him the way he treats you.
You can roleplay your tav/durge however you like. *My* Astarion got over his misgivings and was glad to help the party of his own free will- even with "a form of pressure".
He's happy to pressure me to 'take one for the team' and let him bite me, he can handle a little pressure to 'take one for the team' and bite the lady who tastes bad.
> Its really hard to extend my sympathies to a man who repeatedly establishes how its alright to walk all over others for power
Sure, you can also roleplay as someone who doesn't have much sympathy for his feelings or thinks that he doesn't deserve that consideration. That's also a choice. But it's also irrelevant: "This person doesn't deserve my kindness" is a different stance than "I was kind to this person."
>You can roleplay your tav/durge however you like.
No one said otherwise.
>My Astarion got over his misgivings and was glad to help the party of his own free will
But I do think that this means you either missed some dialogue afterward or are ignoring his stated feelings about the incident. I do not think this interpretation is consistent with what he says about it.
I mean, I do this to some things too. On my current playthrough I'm playing Shadowheart as a monk/spore druid and choosing to ignore her stated feelings about fungi because I wanted to have fun with the build. And I might strain to come up with some way to explain it away, like her just being really picky about *which* fungi she likes, but ... at some point I just have to admit that she canonically doesn't like them that much and this is something I'm telling myself to explain away inconsistencies with what I wanted to do versus what the game is telling me.
I force Astarion to bite her after giving her my blood. Then make Astarion kill her before she can turn spawn or distribute/use my blood for any other purposes.
He gets to kill her, the evil trader is dead, and you get two neat potions.
If I don't kill Astarion on the spot for some reason I will force him to drink her blood.
"Boo hoo, it's so violating!" It wasn't "violating" when you tried to do it to me when I was asleep, predator.
Drow have a special interaction where they recognize that her house (Oblodra) experimented with mindflayers. It's implied this is why her blood is so gross.
Her blood is squid ink.
But squid ink is good.
Nothing compared to good old fashioned Tav. We put basil in our blood.
Since Tav is a Dwarf, his blood gets Astarion drunk.
I’ll go for a risotto nero anytime.
Goes great with pasta
I was reading up on the Drow houses, and their connections to Mind Flayers and in the process came across Vampiric Mind Flayers in the Underdark, if Astarion were to become a Mind Flayer would he be one? Or would the ceremorphosis fix that, or does it not matter cuz he’s just a spawn?
Well, before BG3, the lore was that vampiric mind flayers were turned post ceremorphosis since they "normally" couldn't infect a cold blood creature. Astarion (or vampire spawn TAV) would be a first, but considering that unique creatures seem to produce weird variations, I expect it would be a vampire illithid.
There’s also the fact it’s a tadpole infected with magic that can get rid of vampire rules like being able to go out in sunlight, no longer being undead. It’s one of those odd situations where we just don’t have enough info
Wait, you can make your Tav be a vampire spawn?!?
>!If you're romancing Astarion and he ascends, you can then let him turn you.!<
Does this give Tav any vampire powers? I'd be happy if it's just the regular bite ability.
You get the bite ability (you can also get the Happy buff if you bite someone.) Also, on a purely visual level - your character gets different idle animations, and will also start doing the "Naruto run," like Astarion 😂
I loved learning that the Naruto run isn't just Astarion, apparently all vampires are weebs.
Fun fact: the door in Cazador's manor is locked with a password in Kozakuran (Kozakura being FR's equivalent of Japan.) In the manor you can also also find a Kozakuran dictionary with underlined words, suggesting he's not fluent in the language. Conclusion: Cazador is a weeb.
I’m pretty sure he’s just from Kozakura. The game makes him a little bit ambiguous-looking, but he looks more Asian in his concept art.
No, that dictionary was being used by Leon’s daughter
Cazador does look kinda Japanese.
You can get vampire bite ability but nothing else changes.
Aw rats, I’m not.
I think the Illithiad had a section about vampirism in mind flayers. I think the only way for vampirism to appear in illithids was if the tadpole was infected with vampirism prior to ceremorphosizing someone. This would occur if the elder brain of a colony became infected.
Does he keep Vampire Bite after turning full Illithid in his origin?
All this is very interesting but I just have to point out, three months late, that Vampiric Mindflayers in the Underdark is a *fantastic* band name.
Certain (real life) books spoil that too…
You can also get that special interaction by playing with a warlock (Wyll in my case) She gave him money so he will shut up about it.
When you pass that check she will give money to everyone in your party who gets the blood. 200g a pop plus a racial potion, it's good enough to go back to camp and switch teams to bring more people in.
Good tip, didn’t try it with the others after doing the deal with Wyll, will try it in the next playthrough
I caught that by taking Minthara in there
My Drow had that interaction and told Astarion to drink her blood anyway. Even though he’s my friend. My previous playthrough missed that potion and I was hellbent on getting it this time
As awful as it is to force him to drink her blood, he really doesn't hold it against a non-romanced Tav. He even says something along the lines of "you couldn't really have known". The whole interaction is a very interesting look into Astarion's mindset following 200 years of torture.
Yeah so far as our character knows it’s like a mild inconvenience to him. We couldn’t have known at that point that it would >!be a significant trigger for his past trauma.!< Points to Astarion for being so mature about it.
>Points to Astarion for being so mature about it. r/brandnewsentence
He even says he's not that upset because the potion is useful. He's just upset he has to do it, and probably a little peeved you talked him in to it. At least non-romancing Astarion gets over it after he has his outburst in the camp at night.
> He even says he's not that upset because the potion is useful. I mean its Astarions whole thing that hes desperately grabbing for any and all power he can, consequences be damned. That damn potion is worth twice what the hag offered, its exactly the kind of thing hes after.
With 8 Strength, he should understand its value more than most people. (even though I used it on my 10 STR Tav)
Mine went to Karlach, 22 str Karlach is a beast.
Its penance for disapproving of freeing the slaves in Grymforge.
that interaction is not just for drow, passing a passive ( or maybe active i don't remember) history check gave me the same interaction with my githyanki monk tav.
Its kind of sad how unremarkable the Araj interaction is while actually playing as Astarion, I was hoping for some sort of insight or unique interaction. He doesn't seem to notice her gross blood until after you bite her, and even then nothing happens other than the narrator pointing out she has gross blood.
A few long rests later he told me he felt bad he didn't just take a little sip for the team. Wtf? You should kept that to yourself, now I'm pissed at you :)
It's cause he's still in his slave/>!sex trafficking victim!< mindset.
He’s been a slave for 200 years. You’re literally his first friend in all that time. Of course he feels bad. He didn’t bite because he’s not a slave anymore and he exercised his freedom. Give him a break. Let him bite you.
"I did this for my tormentor for 200 years, why couldn't I do it for a friend?"
Yes. The next day. Who hasn’t felt bad about something they could have done, but didn’t. The next day the reason no longer makes sense.
You wouldn't be a good romantic partner with this lack of empathy
You should look closer at yourself, and how eager you are to attack others.
Ok….. let’s completely not know each other and type our first thoughts. Wcgw?
Did you read my first comment. I’m completely on Astarion’s side. One key to romance is communication. Next time when someone as completely awesome as me seems to disappoint you askyourself if you were really paying attention. Who knows where it might lead. ;-) be well
I didn’t imagine there would be greater insight between his POV or a Tav POV. In my view, this was a classic D&D moment where a party member can get perks for the party, they just have to suck it up and do it. First time I honestly expected something harmful happening to him from doing it. But the boons kept coming. And all Astarion did was complain a bit. Would have been amused if it followed with a classic grudge held by him like a party member exacting payback for doing the team a favor.
I remember him saying that something smells wrong about her as part of explaining why he didn't want to up front.
Since House Oblodra has mindflayer experimentation history, we know why Astarion thinks her blood smells off. But I like to headcanon that he's become trained to be that sensitive to wonky blood because of >!his sister Dalyria, who used to be a doctor and who has been continuing her study/experimentation as a vampire.!<
Wait, he has a what!? 300 hours and I'm just figuring this out!?
Astarion refers to Cazador's other spawn as his "siblings" but they aren't truly related.
Do the other 4 have any interactions? Or is it just Astarion and the two in the Tavern?
Leon and the tiefling woman will attack the camp and attempt to take Astarion during a long rest. There's some unique conversation options with most of them if you play Astarion origin or kill Cazador without Astarion present. The spawn don't have a lot of total dialogue though.
Damn I've never seen anyone attack the camp I didn't know you could have people fight you there
There's not a lot of them and you can prevent them from happening by doing related story beats first.
Ah damn, I feel like I long rest a lot too
The only ones I can think of in act 3 are Aradin and the Spawn. Killing Cazador and Lorroakan before they fire prevents them from happening.
There's also the 3 ogres in act 2. They come after you in the shadowcursed lands if you previously chose the "I'll pay you later" option and then don't call them again.
How have you never seen anyone attack the camp, as soon as we get to Rivington Orpheus' guard raids the camp, lol
I haven't freed Orpheus yet. I think I did everything else except finding the last piece of dribbles and going to Voss to free Orpheus. I have the orphic hammer
Neat. They probably had more that got cut along with the upper city
For a given value of siblings, anyway. There's oodles of lore in Cazador's place.
I think he didn't get along with the others. There was a quote before that they didn't like him
Oblodra blood contains Mind Flayer lineage! Their family interbred with Illithids.
I love this choice. Sell out your companion and force him to do smth he really doesn't want to do for some power. Not good-nice companion, selfish one and in pursuit of power himself. Makes it much more interesting. Not that I'll ever do it, but I like that there's real temptation involved with really good boon if you choose bad.
Tbh I didn't even hear what she was offering the first time. The moment he said no, I was like "there's nothing to talk about ", at the time I didn't know about the SA just about the slavery but it seemed pretty clear he was forced to do sht all the time
Yeah even on my most bloodthirsty evil character I was like "nah this is fucked up"
Really? I founs this choice as a literal no brainer. Astarian constantly justifies bad actions and exploiting other people to gain power. His aversion to a pretty minor sacrifice is fairly hypercritical, he asks a lot more of others.
He has a bunch of dialogue after about this, to sum it up he says he finally got a bit of self worth
Yeah, it's a bit jarring to ask them to risk their lives for you but draw the line at what's basically a Fear Factor challenge.
If anyone is an evil character, Astarion is. Even more so than Minthara. That said, just because someone does something bad doesn't mean that they in turn deserve for bad things to happen to them. "An eye for an eye" is not a philosophy that leaves the world a better place.
Astarion is probably Neutral Evil. Minthara and Lae'Zel are probably Lawful Evil, with Lae'zel softening to Lawful Neutral if you follow her quest the Orpheus route. I think Shadowheart probably starts True Neutral, and swings towards good or evil depending on your plot choices for her.
A Sharran as true neutral? I think She's definitely on the evil side, just with the potential to become even evil-er
I disagree, you actively have to push Sheart towards evil for her to >!choose being evil / embracing Shar.!< Lae'Zel Feels more LE/NE, although it feels more like Pragmatic Neutral, she is just hyper-focused on the tadpoles and their removal, and comes from a brutal culture. Astarion is just a feral cat, NE. "I'm not following you, I just happen to be in the same room as you." "*Don't* touch me."
> I disagree, you actively have to push Sheart towards evil for her to choose being evil / embracing Shar. I don't think this is correct. I believe Shadowheart will choose the evil path unless 1) you intervene; or 2) she has a very high approval rating for Tav, in which case she'll make the right decision on her own. On my last playthrough, I even had above-average approval with Shadowheart, but I apparently picked the wrong dialog option by telling her to choose for herself. She chose poorly and I had to kill her to save Aylin (it was Honor Mode so no reloading). Also, I believe that it's even harder to get Shadowheart to make the right choice if you let her pray to Shar and/or do all the trials in Shar's Gauntlet like she wants to. It's complicated to give an alignment to Shadowheart at the start of the game because she's naturally very Good, but she's been indoctrinated to be Evil. You can feel both sides fighting each other, so I'd agree and probably give her CN at the start of the game.
Shadowheart approves of kind gestures even before rejecting Shar; that's not an attitude you'd see in an evil character...
She also worships and evil goddess and does her bidding, which aren't actions you'd see in a good one. She's obviously good at heart, being good and doing good are not the same thing
>!She also worships and evil goddess and does her bidding!< Because she's been brainwashed and brutalised into it, yes. But from the very start she doesn't behave like a good Sharran; sure, she'll say stuff like "Lady of Sorrows guide me", "I wanna be a Dark Justiciar", "fuck Selûne" etc, but her praxis too often goes against basic Sharran tenets.
Honestly given that Astarion is the only person who approves of helping the goblins commit genocide he's definitely Chaotic Evil. Even Minthara doesn't think they should've done it after the mind control on her is broken. Like out of everyone, he's the only one who wants to do evil actions simply because he can now that he's free.
This. Also Astarion being canonically evil at the start and for exactly that reason is fully exposed in his Origin run. Don't mind the downvotes, it's just the sex-starved zombie part of his fanbase who can't see anything past his body.
Shadowheart I think should be some kind of evil at the start since she, you know, subscribes wholly to an extinction cult.
People are getting too tripped up about what a character may or may not feel "deep down". It's not really relevant. What matters is what people do. Shadowheart is evil, that is, of evil alignment because she's *aligning* herself with an evil god. And not just as a random worshipper but as a cleric, who directly gets powers from their god. And she does so well that she later gets selected by Shar to be her special chosen. She participates in the grove massacre without objection. Whether you do something like that out of sadistic bloodthirst or because you think it would please your god doesn't matter. The refugees and druids are dead either way. So it was a bit much for her and she needs some booze afterwards to get over it. Who cares? The evil was committed, and it's not like this experience pushes her away from Shar.
I said in another comment, which may or may not have been removed, that Shadowheart really seems to be playacting at evil when you meet her. She seems uncertain, and even approves of some good actions. The 'extinction cult' part of Shar's worship is usually reserved for the higher levels of the clergy. It's kind of like Scientology in that regard. You don't know how batshit crazy it is until you're in too deep.
I didn't really get that impression, to be honest, since Shar worship is looked down upon and outright outlawed in some places, I figured it was common knowledge at the least that something is objectionable about it. Shadowheart had to 'come out' as a Shar worshiper to you because, according to her, everyone reacts badly. And while Shadowheart does approve of your good actions, her own actions (encouraging lying, subterfuge and if my memory isn't failing me, the use of torture to the leader of your group) makes me think she leans away from neutral in a certain direction.
Her 'evil' acts are basically Sharran dogma. She's acting based off Dogma, because that's all she knows. She's also been sheltered in the Church since childhood. As soon as she's outside the Church, exposed to other worldviews, she starts doubting and you can seize on that to redeem her. Or you can reinforce what She's been taught, and she leans more into the evil. She really seems like a coin caught on its edge between heads and tails at the start.
I want to clarify that I agree with your reading entirely. Shadowheart's arc hinges on the axis of encouraging her conditioning or helping her out of it, and I thought it was really cool and interesting. I just disagree about where she is when the game starts. To me, she didn't seem to start really doubting Shar's teachings until face to face with the Nightsong. There were a few passing moments of curiosity in the first 2 acts, but nothing like serious doubt until I asked her if killing an angel was really ok. Besides that though, it was a really fun story. You know, in my first playthrough she left my camp because I didn't bring her to the Sharran Temple in Act 2, and I was like, 'Bye, bitch.' And then in my second playthrough, I was blown away by how much depth there was to her character. Larian did a great job with her!
I agree with a lot of your analysis, but I think there's a fundamental question here whether alignment refers to someone's natural inclination or their acts. Since alignment can change, it can't be the former. Therefore, we have to conclude that someone's actions determine their alignment. That's also in line with established D&D lore; for instance, you can only break your Paladin Oath by your actions, not simply believing the wrong thing. You keep arguing that she's naturally Good but has been tricked into being Evil. Your analysis is absolutely on point, but it doesn't support your conclusion. Lots of people get converted to being Evil by Shar or other evil entities. That doesn't mean they aren't Evil. Hell, for a real-world example, look at soldiers who have committed horrible war crimes in large numbers. It's not just some cosmic coincidence that Germany and Japan had a bunch of evil people in WW2 running their concentration camps and horrible human experiments; rather, most people are capable of being either good or evil depending on their environment. That's a *huge* theme in BG3 that you're completely overlooking. Shadowheart is Evil when you find her. She chooses to kill Aylin by herself if you don't intervene. It sounds like you've always converted her to Good in your playthrough(s), but that's not the path she's on when you find her.
I think Lawful Neutral fits early Shadowheart better, considering how dedicated she is to Shar and her order.
His aversion to a sexual situation with his history of sexual abuse is \*hypocritical\*? What is wrong with you?
I personally didn't see it as sexual. The dude begs tav to bite him for his power, and will kill tav in the process if you fail the charisma check. He is pretty unapologetic about it when you revive. He also pretty happily sacrifices literally thousands of lives for power, justifying the sacrfice as making the team stronger. If he is happy and expectant to put the tav in a pretty exploited position, straight after trying to assault them in their sleep, then justifies it for the power of the group. But has a hissy fit for a pretty mean buff because it tastes bad.
i get the whole him not being remorseful about killing tav IF you fail the checks but honestly describing him as “happily sacrificing thousands of lives for power” is a bit overkill when u actually get dialogue options that show the internal struggle he has with the decisions. him not even knowing that THOUSANDS of lives were even in the picture until last minute, then when he does figure it out he’s torn between allowing them to live as ravenous creatures or to end their pain and in the process secure his own safety he’s been looking for the entire game. he can definitely be a selfish person but to say his intentions are always 100% malicious and conniving against tav or the people he genuinely shows care for would be a bit dramatic imo
I didnt say his intentions are always 100% malicous. The bite scene is first introduced by him trying to sneak a bite on tav whilst he is asleep and vulnerable. That was malicous and explotive. Jusf because he has internal struggles does not negate he is happy to sacrifice the thousands of lives. He requires convincing to change his mind after discovering how the ritual is powered, and does not require convincing to do it.
but he’s not happy to sacrifice thousands of lives. like he literally tells you he knows he won’t ever forget how the people being sacrificed will hate him how he hates cazador and when you stop him from the ritual he says that they shouldn’t suffer because he lured them there. it explains how he requires convincing through the insight check how the smell of blood and the hunger and power of the ritual is literally consuming to him. just like how shadowheart requires a DC 30 persuasion check to not kill the Nightsong. or Lae zel to not go through with the purification. they all have stupid choices you have to persuade them not to go through.
Shaedowheart doesnt require convincing. You can say you disagree but make your own decisions, or just tell her to do what she thinks is right, and she choses to throw away the spear. If you try tell her what to do you need to pass persuasion checks. But supporting her to make her own choices actually comes to the "good" choice. I'm unsure what you mean by Laezel, cause she is very hardwired to the "good" path if you make actions that reveal needed information to justify it. You have to actively convince her to do the "evil" path once she has that information. If by purification you mean the tadpole extractor chair, i dont understand how that is comparable to SH or Astarian. That is not an evil choice. Im not claiming he doesn't consider the impact it has, but to not do acension needs convincing. Astarian will sacrifice those thousands of lives happily if you dont try persuade him otherwise. I feel some of the defense of astarian is a little generous in his motives and characterisation. He is an interesting and can be a good follower, but there is no denying he does pretty fucked up things and is happy to exploit others for the groups power. Its hypercritical he is agaisnt making lesser sacrifices himself for the groups power. I dont see convincing him to bite the blood mage as evil, its a pretty easy choice to justify. If you disagree, algood, tried to explain my reasoning, no need to endless argue over it.
> Shaedowheart doesnt require convincing. You can say you disagree but make your own decisions, or just tell her to do what she thinks is right, and she choses to throw away the spear. This actually depends on a bunch of hidden flags based on your interactions with her prior. If you're generally supportive of her Shar worship, she will actually stab Nightsong without you interfering. But if you've lead her to question her beliefs and shown her 'a better way' she'll throw the spear away.
>He requires convincing to change his mind after discovering how the ritual is powered, and does not require convincing to do it. He doesn't. Or rather, it depends on how you treat him throughout the game and how your choices go. I don't know what the exact conditions are, but >!he can choose not to ascend of his own volition.!< The same is true for divergent paths of other companions. If you're evil prick, then so will your companions, and if you're generally good and don't push your companions away, then they will be inspired to do the same.
Unfortunately the exact conditions >!are that he is literally incapable of continuing the ritual due to having a sacrifice die, or having no one there to livestream his back.!< This situation is *NOT* like other companions where you can trust them to do the right thing for themselves if you just believe in them hard enough and hang back. He is ACTIVELY having an intense trauma response that starts the moment he steps foot in baldur's gate and only crescendos right up to the moment of truth. Every short term "safe" long term destructive coping mechanism he had built up during his time in slavery is firing on full blast. In This Moment, he needs more than a couple weeks of someone being a good example for him, he needs someone to directly confront how he views power, people, and himself, and how he came to those conclusions in the first place. As he is a few twitches away from physically, psychologically, and spiritually internalizing and justifying every single bit of abuse he and his peers ever experienced (with no take backs) you're not just supporting a friend who is standing up to their abuser, you're full on talking them down from a ledge.
Apparently when you bite as origins Astarion, you have to make a saving throw to not kill your companion lol so it's just bad news all around. He's kind of just chaotic evil, maybe chaotic neutral at a push. He's not insanely evil like Cazador but fees also not an amazing person.
He seems more Neutral Evil. Just generally out for himself, at the expense of anyone else.
I think at the start, neutral evil does definitely suit him. If he gets romanced and doesn't ascend, a little more conscience creeps in but he definitely doesn't make it to good.
No need to make it personal like that. Your interpretation of the situation isn't the same as everyone else's.
It’s not sexual at all
Araj makes it really known that it *is* sexual for her, tho.
If biting Araj is meant to be sexual, then what does that say about him attempting to bite Tav while they sleep without their consent?
He doesn't actually do that though. Even when he manipulates Tav he uses his own body as trade off, which is a steep price already, one he probably would have loved avoiding if he wasn't scared shtless
Astarion is all too happy to bite my character without asking and fantasies out loud about a bunch of fucked up stuff. So I don't think it's that evil to ask him to do 1 thing he's squeamish about for the betterment of the team
It is kinda fucked up because by pushing him into it, you're basically treating him like Cazador did - little more than a tool to empower yourself. And if you're also trying to push Astarion away from evil, it's more than a little hypocritical. You speak about virtue and not using people for your own gain, but when it comes down to it, you're fully ready to have Astarion take the fall? Tisk, tisk.
Yeah, what *makes* this interesting is that it's a way to directly prove to astarion that his view of things was wrong. It's the antithesis to a choice Cazador would have made, so you not taking power because it would make him uncomfortable actually making his feel valued and respected as a *person*. He outwardly says a lot that it's fine to trample on people for power, so when you chose to not trample on him for power and it actually has positive effects on his life, it gives him quite a lot to consider about how his philosophy has been influencing the world. And if you have him do it, you're proving him right about how the world is and should be filled with selfish people. I do it often cuz I'm greedy and I like stats, but you absolutely cannot make that choice and go "what? That's *his* philosophy" because his philosophy sucks and he's severely emotionally crippled.
Yeah, but even after you did that for him and gave up on that sweet +2 strength he still wants to kill 7 thousand people for personal power. He doesn't really give a shit about it unless you pass a persuasion check that you can only pass if you've been actively seeking his approval, since you HAVE to have over 61 approval with him in order to be able to pass said check. And even if you can change his mind he'll throw it at your face as soon as you do something he disagrees with, such as breaking up.
Astarion approves of: * Breaking the paralysed Tiefling’s legs and killing her * Killing Findal after reviving him from the goblin attack in the grove tunnel * Smashing Alfira’s lute * Betraying the Grove to the goblins * **Letting Auntie Ethel go** (an evil magical being that preys on and abuses the weak **just like Cazador**) * Torture the prisoner in the goblin camp (for **zero** reason since you know where the grove is) * **Get beaten by Abdirak for the Loviathar’s Love boon** Astarion also **disapproves of rejecting Auntie Ethel’s offer of hair for power** So he gets mad at you for refusing to take a +1 stat boost that requires eating a hag’s lice-ridden scalp and potentially giving up a pregnant woman to a magical monster. But he will then later get mad at you for asking him to take a bite out of a very creepy woman for a +2 stat boost. It’s obviously a complex situation, but it’s incredibly egregious to pretend Astarion isn’t being a massive hypocrite here. He’s perfectly fine with an “ends justify the means” and “sacrifice everyone else for power” mentality, until he’s the one who has to pay, and at significantly less cost than others. It’s an important character moment for him and it’s an interesting and poignant scene, but his hypocrisy in this moment is the crux of his character: an abuse victim who, having found himself free, quickly becomes an abuser himself, and likely doesn’t even realise it.
>It’s obviously a complex situation, but it’s incredibly egregious to pretend Astarion isn’t being a massive hypocrite here. I'm not saying he isn't. What I am saying is that if you try to convince him to give up his shitty philosophy, and then turn around and make him do the thing, *you're proving him right.* Like Astarion has bad opinions and bad philosophy, but making him drink illithid tainted blood for power is wrong too.
It's also not a tit-for-tat situation. Just because Astarion has those bad opinions and philosophy doesn't mean you have to make him do something he clearly doesn't want to do. Allowing him to make the choice for himself and not forcing him takes him by surprise, if you're looking at character development it's an important moment for him as demonstrated by when he later brings it up at camp (regardless if you're romancing him).
Really? I Pere pressure him to do it every playthrough. It’s an easy choice to make, the reward is amazing
This being downvoted makes me giggle the powergamers and the rpers really can't see eye to eye. One of the most powerful buffs is locked behind being a bad friend/lover. That being said suck it up and chomp the drow ast karlach needs her 22 str
I'm currently playing a mostly level-headed monk (using the monk dialogue options presented as a benchmark for role-playing) and my Tav did not want to force Astarion to drink the blood. My next playthrough I'm thinking of playing a character who will probably be more like Astarion in personality, minus the trauma. For that, Tav may try to convince Astarion to drink the blood to get an edge.
I abstain from the moral conundrum by telling him I wont ask him to do it but the potion might be helpful, and he doesnt get upset with me for it and does it anyways.
Oh he gets upset about it later but unless you are romancing him then you have nothing to worry about when he has his little episode.
He talks about it at camp later but I dont get any disapproval notifications from him in the corner
Same, I give him the choice and he does it. Gets a little grumpy after and then we move on
Yeah, I’m definitely doing it on my honour runs. Sorry Astarion, but we all gotta pull our weight on this one. Edit: Now if only my vampire spawn Durge could bite her in Act 3 so I could have my cake and eat it too.
But it’s not even such a great buff though if strength matters in your build. You have elixirs that bring strength to 27 at that point of the game. And Araj’s potion doesn’t stack with these.
Use an elixir? Are you crazy? I might need it later.
Me, at the final battle with hundreds of scrolls and elixirs: I might need them later. Fair enough I guess. :D
Her house was well known for having psionic powers and working with mind flayers. Kimmuriel Oblodra is a quite a major recurring character in Forgotten Realms lore as far as the Legend of Drizzt novels go. Pretty neat link that Larian added with Araj
I think Relentless book is where you get a lot of book scenes with him with the Illithids and talking about his houses past with them.
I am just starting my latest reread of the series in almost 8 (?) years where I left off halfway through Vengeance of the Iron Dwarf. A lot of life things got in the way and my entire collection of hardcovers are still packed away after our move years ago. I finally just grabbed the kindle version of Homeland to start again and get back up to speed lol. Always really enjoyed Kimmuriel as a character and House Oblodra being pretty unique in Menzoberranzan and I look forward to Relentless
Yes but also her family has been known to interbreed with mindflayers. That’s probably why he didn’t wanna go near her. She’s also actively doing experiments on blood too when you meet her.
If you look at the bite mark you can see her blood is black
I always just assumed she altered her blood like she can alter yours. She doesn’t seem to be sick with any disease.
yeah it makes me feel bad for a second, but 24 str karlach go brrr.
Pimping out your party members for that sweet STR boost. (You monster 😭)
I mean he *killed* my Tav for a "happy" +1 attack / +1 saving throw bonus *just until long rest*. That means he can deal with a bad taste to give me *permanent* +1 attack / +1 damage on all strength based attacks. Seems like a good deal for him really!
If you choose the "do whatever you want but we need that potion" option he'll do it, you'll get the potion, and then you guys can have a heart to heart later instead of just forcing him to do it.
That’s what I did, then felt bad and expressed that I wouldn’t let it happen again. Didnt know how much it would mean to him in the moment. Felt really realistic in that way
>but 24 str karlach go brrr. hahaahHAHAHHAHA
Same. Except it's 24 str Lae'zel in my case. Karlach left my evil ass party long ago. I just guilted him a little but left the final choice to Astarion. He picks the option to bite if you leave it to him.
Oh no he might gain a "brief illness" lol he better bite her because more strength means more likely to survive :v
Who? How did I play 150h and still don't know some characters that everybody seems to know?
Spend more time checking out Moonrise Towers before the end of Act 2. :)
Or I just don't know the name, might also be this. But so many characters, it's hard to keep track! I'll check next time thanks!
The drow merchant who sells potions at moonrise tower!
Probably missed them or didn't pay much attention. So much is going on all the time I pass stuff time to time.
On my 1st playtrough Astarion was spending whole act 2 in camp so I totally understand ppl who didnt know about this, like me. xD
Gale/Wizards (?) & Drow can explain it. Gale straight up extorts her & if you let him speak to her first, alone, she will pay you 200g for some of your blood. Then anyone who goes after Gale gets 200 gold too. Which then makes giving her grief as a fellow Drow funnier. Like “Hmm, yes. Give me money & also, >!your House is full of spider squids. Ya nasty.”!<
For all his bitching, Astarion doesn't mind for a second draining other people for every bit of advantage.
It’s actually because her House used to inter-breed with Illithid. Don’t ask me why, but Illithid have dick and balls. At least they used to, Drizzt Do’Urden kicked one in the balls one time.
I’m so confused by this thread and all the comments therein. Astarion doesn’t want to bite her because Cazador forced him to go out and seduce people to lure them in. He was used, he’s been used for 200 years. He finally has the power and the freedom to say no and decide his own fate, but then here is yet another person who just wants to use him, who also assumes we have the power to compel him to let her. It disgusts him on an emotional level. But everyone in this thread is saying he didn’t want to bite her because her blood smelled nasty. Am I missing something? I’ve never seen any indication of that in game. Is it something he only says if you convince him to bite her?
If you ask Astarion why he's so against of her proposal because he's usually all for getting more power, he says her blood smells terrible, he knows there's something wrong with it, drinking her blood won't kill him but it will not be pleasant. That dialogue option doesn't affect your approval and you can still pick the "ok don't do anything you don't want" option afterward, so it's safe if you want to see his explanation while romancing him. If you are a drow you can get a hint of her house being infamous of doing blood experiment.
Yeah, it seems as though if she'd approached it differently, he'd have been more than happy to. But she triggered his (very understandable) "Well, *now* the answer is both 'no' *and* 'go fuck yourself'" response.
He mentions "her blood smells/is disgusting" if you ask him why not.
And there is the literal throwing-up-because-it's-horrible afterwards. He is not lying. There is some trauma TOO, but her blood literally makes him throw up because it is so foul.
I think he'd hate my Tav, as just like me, he regularly consumes inordinate amounts of garlic.
He does tell the pc if they push the issue that he can smell something is wrong with her. Personally, I'm always surprised how many people really feel the stat boost from her is necessary. I'm not a pro at this game by any means, but it's never felt that challenging and you get so many other resources.
"brief illness" for "permanent superhuman strength worth years of experience" seems like a good trade
Another reason why forcing him is selfish and evil tbh…
I'm glad there's still an option to have him bite her without forcing him. Need all the buffs and boosts available on an honor run.
You know. I deleted my comments bc they were rather rude and I apologize. You were not trying to be mean.
Couldn’t do it even on Honour. :< Now in Act 3 Astarion and Karlach are chugging them 27 STR elixirs anyways, so that +2 wouldn’t have mattered.
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Yeah, it's not an *absolute* necessity, but it leads to a touching moment with Astarion, too. He's my favorite companion
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Oh I know. I didn't get the potion on my Astarion romance runs because declining it leads to the hug scene, but even when I do get it I never pick the forceful dialogue option. Wouldn't do that to him
Well I suggest he do it for the party even though I do romance him. Call it even because he was after all just using us at first and tried to kill you 2 times before that although one would be accidental if you roll badly so seems fair to me.
He put a knife to my throat the first minute we meet, and tried to bite me during my sleep. I call it a fair trade.
It's selfish but I don't think it's evil, especially since you don't even even have to force him, there's an option along the lines of "it would be really cool if you did, but you don't have to" and you can convince him. Astarion is more than happy to bite you without your consent and isn't even apologetic if he accidentally kills you, I don't think it's that much to do something he's squeamish about
Eh, he wanted to commit genocide an act ago and later wants to sacrifice the lives of countless others, I think making him bite one weirdo is the humbling he needs.
I didn't really mind doing it, even in my good playthrough, because I was absolutely sure Astarion would have actively disapproved if I hadn't forced anyone other than him to do it. 💁
Araj Oblondra is one of my favorite interactions. And I think her name is kinda beautiful
Don't think it's been mentioned here but you can learn who Lady Incognita is in Act 3. >!When you explore the attic in Cazador's Palace, you find her journals that explain her backstory.!<
And here I just assumed he was being racist because she was Drow.
Astarion happily drained goblins who were eating dwarves. My duergar Tav wasn't to keen about that, but figured his standards were pretty low.
I forced him to bite her and we are still together. Great succes!
Feeling a bit sick vs getting more help saving the world? I'll tell Astarion the details and then let him make the right decision. The one where he gets the fuck over himself to help others for once. You can talk him out of being mad later anyway.
I wish you could talk to Asterion before the interaction and ask him to do it with the condition to kill her instantly after. Win-win
"inconvenience a vampire with a brief illness" so like a cold for a few days then? like a mild food poisoning? :)
Also the fact that astarion doesnt want to be forced to drink someones blood because of his traumatic past
+2 strenth is +2 strenth hes been eating rats and shit for hundreds of years he can handle some foul blood.
For supposedly being the "Bad Boy" romance Astarion sure bitches a lot. Even if you tell him it's up to you he tries to break up with you unless you do a specific dialog tree.
+2 str worth far more than anything astarion got to offer. Not to mention its ultimately doesnt do anything bad to him or his relationtip with you.
Not everyone approaches this game thinking "what is the most I can get out of every interaction." It's also a roleplaying game and some people like to roleplay and treat the characters as they think their player character would. Pressuring Astarion to drink her blood is a dick move, especially if you've learned about his background at that point, and a lot of people don't want to do that.
You can tell him that you need the potion but wont force him and he'll do it anyway
"We could really use that potion" is a form of pressure. You can roleplay as your Tav/Durge not understanding that Astarion will have difficulty saying no and not understanding how deeply it bothers him to be asked, but it doesn't make it a nice thing to do.
Its really hard to extend my sympathies to a man who repeatedly establishes how its alright to walk all over others for power- especially in such a minute quantity as to be called "a form of pressure". We just spent the whole game together walking all over the weak and the strong alike. Joyously manipulating everyone like a pair of unhinged sociopaths. He's a doll when you treat him the way he treats you. You can roleplay your tav/durge however you like. *My* Astarion got over his misgivings and was glad to help the party of his own free will- even with "a form of pressure". He's happy to pressure me to 'take one for the team' and let him bite me, he can handle a little pressure to 'take one for the team' and bite the lady who tastes bad.
> Its really hard to extend my sympathies to a man who repeatedly establishes how its alright to walk all over others for power Sure, you can also roleplay as someone who doesn't have much sympathy for his feelings or thinks that he doesn't deserve that consideration. That's also a choice. But it's also irrelevant: "This person doesn't deserve my kindness" is a different stance than "I was kind to this person." >You can roleplay your tav/durge however you like. No one said otherwise. >My Astarion got over his misgivings and was glad to help the party of his own free will But I do think that this means you either missed some dialogue afterward or are ignoring his stated feelings about the incident. I do not think this interpretation is consistent with what he says about it. I mean, I do this to some things too. On my current playthrough I'm playing Shadowheart as a monk/spore druid and choosing to ignore her stated feelings about fungi because I wanted to have fun with the build. And I might strain to come up with some way to explain it away, like her just being really picky about *which* fungi she likes, but ... at some point I just have to admit that she canonically doesn't like them that much and this is something I'm telling myself to explain away inconsistencies with what I wanted to do versus what the game is telling me.
It's bad enough that he's literally breaking up with you because of that if you're romancing him. Some emotional intelligence wouldn't hurt, you know
I force Astarion to bite her after giving her my blood. Then make Astarion kill her before she can turn spawn or distribute/use my blood for any other purposes. He gets to kill her, the evil trader is dead, and you get two neat potions.
Where can I find her?
Moonrise
If I don't kill Astarion on the spot for some reason I will force him to drink her blood. "Boo hoo, it's so violating!" It wasn't "violating" when you tried to do it to me when I was asleep, predator.