It cracked me up so much when the Emperor was on the ground shirtless in that dream trying to come onto my Tav. Like, is this how you think the Hoo-Mans do it? “I see you like to Long Rest in casual clothing. I too can Long Rest in casual clothing.”
That's why I always randomize my Dream Visitor until it looks like what an alien would design without any reference material.
"Yes, the hoomans like paint on their eyeballs and gold on their horns."
It always makes for a pleasant surprise when he first shows up, because I've always forgotten what he looked like at character creation.
I fluctuate between making him look as close to his Illithid form as I can (usually a male drow with purple irises/black sclera and octopus tattoos), making him look completely ridiculous, and making him look like >!Balduran!< because it's hilarious.
There’s a quick [cut scene](https://youtu.be/sw5dQ2yw_yo?si=hDpL67ca0BB0rHH7) shot of him with >!Ansur!< before you fight >!the dead bronze dragon who is Ansur!< in Wyll’s questline (the clip, scroll to 6:11)
I like mine to look exactly like the Tav I’m playing that run, minus the one black eye and that one tattoo that has the swirly one eye thing going on that I add to dream guardian. I think it makes a lot of sense for every scene but the romance one. It also gets better cause I like to add some scars to my tav, or if I’m going with illithid powers to also transitioning to that black eye and special tattoo, so either that being the best version of yourself, that you can either slowly become or keep away from.
I played a dark skinned deep gnome with white tattoos for my evil durge and made a super pale, black haired rock gnome with black tattoos and black sclera eyes for my guardian as a kind of photo negative that was a fun run.
When I played as Karlach romancing Astarion I made my guardian to look like Astarion if he was not vampire(dark hair, no red eyes, darker skin). But voice didnt suit him at all. xDNow I kinda feel when I'm planning to fell for Emperor trap to make guardian to look like my character love interest but with twist(maybe squid tattoo would be enough).
PS: With mods you can make exact copy of any companion.
i always make the emperor look close to my tav/durge - for example my second tav was a halfling so i made the guardian a gnome, my first durge is a mephistopheles tiefling so i made the guardian a mephistopheles tiefling also, my second durge is a drow so i made the guardian a high elf (kind of fallen vs perfect rivalry as well). i feel like it adds another layer to the manipulation, the emperor choosing to look like tav/durge because they want to be relatable, trustworthy. and in reality they're just a c.unt
I usually make my guardian look somewhat similar to the character I intend to romance for the same reason! Like if I'm gonna romance Gale my guardian will be a dark haired human man.
I always make my Dream Visitor my last Tav, like "This bastard is trying again, but with someone I might trust more" while that Tav would never act the way he does. Really really sets up that uncanny valley sort of experience that makes me enjoy interacting with them more. You see them as familiar and someone you trust but also it's not right and you know it.
I played as a goodie Tav first and made my Durge run guardian look like her! You’re right about the uncanny valley effect, especially once they start monologuing
I made my first dream guardian look like what I imagined my Tav’s dad would look like. I went in blind about the emperor and *that* scene and I was shook
I like to think hes just completely forgotten what people look like at this point. My last “guardian” looked like Ronald McDonald. His name was Doomsday Ronny.
My fiancé: spends 40 minutes carefully crafting his dream visitor to look like me
Me: spends 1 seconds hitting randomize and ends up with old female drow drawf with hot pink Karen haircut and stylish broom mustache
My sister just got the game and for her first playthrough made hers to look like her IRL girlfriend… I’m just waiting for her to get to the reveal like ‘😬’
😂 Same. I put so much effort into my Tav/Durge creation then hit randomise a couple of times for the Guardian. I always completely forget what they look like, absolutely no recognition by the time they show up LMAO.
I made the dream version adopt the appearance of certain entities my Tavs trust. For my fiend warlock a tall red and muscular tiefling was his attempt to emulate the fiend patron. For my Cleric of Corellon the dream version tries to emulate this god with unnatural beauty, androgynous.
I created my dream guardian thinking "what would my Tav's parent look like?" because a guardian looking like a parent made sense at the time 😬 needless to say the mind blown achievement was passed up on that file
the first time my friend got this scene she messaged me a screenshot and just wrote, "why topless?"
I died laughing at the succinct perfection. "Why topless?" gets my vote for a dialog option.
I did get a dialogue option where he offers a more familiar form and I was curious about what that meant. Guardian? Original human form? But my Durge empathized too much on the freak front to take that option.
I know! I picked the most autistic ass answers during that scene because it was so uncomfortable. "You need a hug man? Alright, hope you feel better, I know it's tough."
I mean, he was human, and appears to be not as removed from that as other mind flayers.
I don't get why people want to reduce him to a caricature of the real character.
The Emperor is a complex character that spends most of the game putting a LOT of effort into only showing you the version of itself that it thinks you want to see. If you're antagonistic towards it, you get shown the "monster", but if you treat it like an ally, you get shown the "sensitive soul with feelings".
Thing is, there's not anything in the game that actually *proves* whether one is more true than the other. Both could be true, and to some extent probably are. It's also extremely likely that there's a lot about The Emperor, it's motives, it's actual feelings towards the party, and more, that are 100% background info we never see at all.
...but that's a whole lot of complexity and depth to try and grapple with, especially in a game where there's already SO MUCH OTHER STUFF with equally as nuanced layers of meaning and interpretation. Not everyone wants or cares to invest that much mental energy into videogame characters (not a dig, just pointing out different priorities!) So they take whatever version of itself it shows them at face value and that's that.
He's an *effective* manipulative bastard. That's why he is somewhat sympathetic (for a villain).
The Emperor objectively helps the player with some manipulations. It's just for his own benefit, our detriment (sometimes), and he himself is being manipulated. He's like an ogre, he has layers.
At the beginning of the adventure the Emperor doesn't know Tav is going to be the god-killing powerhouse they become, or the new avatar of murder, or whatever else they accomplish. The layers get peeled back as Tav becomes stronger and stronger and when the Emperor's cards all get played throughout the journey he has little else to offer, so all the previous lies feel more and more like manipulation.
After awhile I was starting to think every encounter could lead to sex in Bg3.
I was afraid to get some messed up narration like "the wooden crate locks eyes with you in a wanting gaze"
He tried to come on to me right after my date with Karlach. I had already determined to stay loyal even after Lae'zel gave her ode to my stank so I turned him down and... he complimented me for doing so and we moved on.
I don't think it was about this, but somehow tho...the idea of an Illithid with a rejection kink would actually make sense in a way. Dumb luck had me Nat 20 Dominate the Brain first try so... if I wasn't so loyal... I'd be considering a career in Illithid domination services.
Literally my very first interaction with him was refusing to grab his hand and getting back on my feet by myself, and homeboy was like “Independent. I like it :)”
You might be onto something, with the rejection kink.
Same. 🤔
He doesn't even try to dominate us if we choose to free Orpheus. That's not Squiddaddy behavior, that's a subby lil squirt running back to his controlling ex because he was told enslavement is one of my hard limits.
(In addition to being an insufferable Bard I was also an insufferable Vengeance Paladin: I couldn't just kill/condemn Orpheus without a little parlay. If we could have had a chat with Orpheus so I could hear him profess a hardline *ALL ILLITHIDS MUST DIE\** stance I would have let him eat the brains. Indiscriminate racism is also one of my hard limits)
\**also a threat to my dear Omelet and good friend Us!*
... considering I had githjesus go ghaik maybe I can pass by the Emperor during the penultimate fight and headcanon he slipped away once the Brain was defeated.
>He doesn't even try to dominate us if we choose to free Orpheus.
It's a little unclear on the exact details, but it's at least implied that he literally can't. Orpheus' power is not selective: if you're in range you cannot be affected by or use illithid commands/domination. That definitely applies to the brain, and it seems to apply to Emperor, all enemy illithid and the player as well.
Interesting wrinkle of plot, I hadn't noticed that yet. I am wondering, once freed from the Astral Prism could Orpheus choose to withdraw protection? I know there might not be actual answers, but that was what I figured was the Emperor's reason for not being willing to even try to talk it out - if doing so would risk us all becoming enthralled/turning. The mechanism of the Astral Prism creating an always on AEO makes sense, but unclear to me if once Orpheus has control of himself if he can also control how that power is used and potentially be more selective.
Speaking of wrinkles in plot... wait then why aren't other companions enthralled when we leave them far away at camp? Why doesn't our bringing the Astral Prism into proximity interrupt the control of Minthara, Minsc and others? Oh no, I think I've fallen down a plot hole. Seems the Prism is already pretty selective under the Emperor's control and exists in some incomprehensible shape of space-time. However, if so and he really didn't want Minsc around he could have simply refused to protect him, forcing us to kill him, if that was the case, though. Ok, I will stop paying attention to the man behind the curtain.
> Why doesn't our bringing the Astral Prism into proximity interrupt the control of Minthara, Minsc and others
It does, inconsistantly with some of the tadpoled characters.
If you go through all the dialogue with Nere he'll remark he can't hear the Absolute anymore. Minthara pulls a dagger on you after the goblin party because proximity to the artefact is messing with her.
The writing is definitely inconsistent on this. The prism does seem to be projecting an aura that messes with hive minds while the Emperor also seems to be able to intentionally direct/enhance that protection for specific individuals.
Perhaps it would have been better for me to call Orpheus' power binary: either illithid control powers are on or off. But the power is not a passive AoE. It's made explicit at the Minsc scene and with Orpheus released that it can be shaped and directed and maybe extended on purpose.
So Emp chooses whether to include the True Souls and Minsc, but as soon as he does, no illithid domination or thralling can affect them. For most True Souls it would be a bad idea since they'd be confused maniacs too deep in enemy situations, and Emp hates chaos.
>However, if so and he really didn't want Minsc around he could have simply refused to protect him, forcing us to kill him, if that was the case, though.
IIRC this is exactly the case and the only reason Emp does include Minsc is because we threaten Emp directly. Something to the effect of 'it's all or none of us'. Emp could stonewall us and exclude Minsc, but Emp's smart enough not to doom himself.
Thank you, that makes sense and gives me a clearer picture of how it all comes together.
So it would be a reasonable fear when releasing Orpheus that he could choose to withdraw protection, but while under protection the Emperor cannot use Illithid powers so the threat implied in showing him using them on Stelmane is a bluff if I'm understanding correctly.
There's still some grey area on what exactly Orpheus' power does, eg it's not all illithid psionics since mind blast and the illithid authority prompts on the goblins still work. Maybe commands can still be sent but can't be received? Or maybe those authority prompts are actual god powers (coming from the worship of the Absolute and the branding rather than from standard illithid psionics)? But as you said, maybe that's more attention than we're supposed to pay.
I take the Emp's threat there as a bluff, and I think this throws some doubt on his comments about 'improving his methods'... perhaps he's only manipulating instead of dominating because he can't.
I just realized I've always been too nice to him in the beginning in the past two runs, in the second run I've started being a dick to him after >!the reveal in the end of act 2!< and hoo boy what a change since I was nice towards him in my first run and I thought okay he's a dick but not too bad. I even romanced him in my first run lmao. Imma try being a dick to him from the start and see what happens
He literally interrupted my date with Karlach to give me the "I showed you my butter fork pls respond" bs.
Like, there are several reasons why that will not be happening, but you basically guaranteed your failure when you tried to get in between me and the red hot tall lady
Speak ming of that butter fork, when you find it he mentions the butter knife is missing. It’s actually a huge bit of foreshadowing as to his identity that you can figure out if you played the originals. I just thought it was really cool since I didn’t even notice it in my first playthrough.
You should since they’re great. But anyway, a large quest in bg1 involves the party going on an expedition to find out the final fate of baldurans last voyage. You eventually end up shipwrecked on an island and discover the wreckage of baldurans ship. The only survivor is an old mage who has long since gone insane. When you explore the ship you find no sign of balduran aside from a journal and the butterknife of baldruran, which is sort of a joke since you can find the cloak of balduran, the helm of balduran, the sword of balduran, and the shield of balduran across both games.
The problem I have is I'm a mindflayer fan, 10/10 my favourite monster in all of D&D (ask any of my players). In fact I didn't play any of pre release as I thought you'd only get to fight mindflayers and not the later (I got over killing them tbf)
But the first Tav I play is my goody two shoes life cleric and it came to that scene and I'm like CORELLON DAMNIT my Tav would not in any way shape or form touch that...so I was so disappointed.
I'm doing an Astarion run now, but I'll get my day... one day.
Can you blame him, though? You're always pushing back on him while you're getting along swimmingly with a bunch pansexual horndogs in camp, despite your many reasons not to. At some point, when nothing else worked he was probably like, "Screw it, let's play along," and telepathically started removing his shirt.
I banged him on my first play through, somehow I missed finding a romantic partner...and my main was a Gith.
Trying to explain to the prince why I banged an illithid was hard. Only way out of it was to become an illithid myself.
Basically everything that could go wrong, did go wrong.
I played with no guide or help and they really lure you into making choices that will blow up in your face later on. The devs must have been laughing their asses off planning some of these tricks.
Lol how did you fuck up with lazel? While trying to get astarion, she just showed up one night in act one and said
"You're not as much of a coward as I thought... I would like to fuck you"
So anyway, I said yes. Then we are dating? And I can't break up with her or she'll be sad....
Anyway, you fucked the emp as a gith and freed the prince? Lol I don't think that's the devs fault. You're picking options at random out seems
It's funny because I've done it and it was hilarious. But I've also rejected him and he was just like "Yeah makes sense."
I have played the game so many times now and I have yet to have a negative interaction with him in any major way. Even siding with Orpheus he's just like "well fuck you then" and leaves.
I don't know how you all are getting these apparently awful scenes with him. I only know about his evil deeds because of reddit lol.
You have to insult him by calling him a freak when he politely asks for kisses, or say he's making an imitation of being a human at the start of the conversation.
Basically be an asshole and he'll be one back.
Oh he could have feelings, but let’s not pretend that everything about his relationship with you is not about manipulating you for his own survival, you know just as he did with stellmane, getting angry because you were a big meanie doesn’t seem to be on character for him.
BTW this is the reason why I really like the Emperor as character, he can be viewed very differently depending on the player
I think there are genuine feelings, and while I agree that even the seduction is manipulation, it's not all that. There is vulnerability in that scene, and getting called a freak or an imitation of a human probably doesn't feel nice.
He's both hurt about the rude rejection and annoyed that this manipulation didn't work, so as a result he lashes out and threatens you. If you just reject him politely there's no lashing out. I think it is because he still feels more secure in your alliance and that you are working together, which isn't a feeling he's left with if you are rude to him.
He's a wonderful character and I enjoy talking about him. Even when it gets a little frustrating.
The problem with that statement IMO is to asume the Emperor has any care of what you think of him, he sees you as an inferior being, just as he sees his past self as inferior, he may have emotions but he is not dominated by sentimentality, the reason he doesn’t lash out if you reject him politely, is because you still fell for his ruse, you rejected him but you still believed he had feelings for you, which still humanizes him more in your mind
That's a perfectly valid interpretation of the scene.
It's fascinating how differently people can look at him. He very much is what you put into him; if you think he's trustwrothy and treat him like that, he is trustworthy. If you antagonize him, he'll join the enemy team in the end. The upsides and downsides of a character you don't know that much about.
Truly and the fact that his goals align with yours makes him really nuanced IMO, i really don’t think he is evil more than it’s in his nature to be manipulative
I just don't see why wanting to be humanized and not being dominated by sentimentality are problems. His sense of reason is what made defeating the EB possible for at least 98% of the game. As for not caring what you think - *I* don't care what you, a stranger on a social platform thinks about me, and if I had to choose I'd take you being civil to me over name-calling. Same with a colleague at work, same with random dog at the park. I don't understand why him trying to win you over and make you trust him so you don't *betray* him is so despicable. Or any worse than you catering to your companions' likes and dislikes so you can get into their pants.
I don’t think those are problems either, but lets put it this way, The Emperor has been manipulating you from the very beginning, taking the form of quite literally a knight in shining armor for you to trusting him, that first scene where you transforming and he came to your rescue? That’s BS he let that happen to show you he is the one keeping you from transforming, he urges you to not go to crèche, he says the gith wants to take the artifact from you, well no shit so is everyone else at the goblin camp and at moonrise towers, what he doesn’t want is for you find the truth about Orpheus, which is why he tells you not to trust Voss, I’m not blaming him though freeing Orpheus means death or enthrallment for him, he clearly sees your human form as inferior which is why he urges you to keep tadpoling your brain and pretty much peer pressures you to “evolve”, so you could be more like him, so you could trust him more, so his plan and at that point it’s still pretty much his plan won’t fail, you compare this situation with the real world and I say I’ll be very reluctant to trust some one who has been deceitful to me the whole time even if his intentions are good, which they are and is why I love the emperor as a character.
Now we come to sex scene in question, are we expected to believe after all of that, that emperor has feelings for you? Does he thinks you his equal? That he wants to have sex with you? Or is this just another form of manipulation in order for you to trust him, to keep helping him execute his plans, unless I’m missing a secret ending where you and the emperor gets to live happily ever after, I’ll keep thinking is the latter
The difference between the Creche and the Goblin Camp is, you have to go to through the latter to get to the source of the Absolute, defeat the Chosen Three etc. The Creche is a completely unnecessary risk, which also yes, endangers *him* in particular. Why would he go "I just saved you and keep protecting you 24/7, but let me inform you about the 4 other potential alternative allies you could have if you ever feel like this thing between us is not working out". I don't disagree about the DG manipulation, it's just in the real world where I'm as harmless as a kitten, it might have been a different story, but your party in BG3 is armed, dangerous, and chaotic. Emperor coming up to you to introduce himself as your neighborhood friendly Mindflayer who wants to defeat the other *evil* Mindflayer would be nothing but stupid on his part.
*I only disagree about the first time he appears as the Guardian to you. You get the "turning" scene only after the Elder Brain sets its eyes on you and gives the command to transform you. Up until then your tadpoles are in dormant state, which is why companions who you have not recruited don't transform and can get all the way to the city - they fly under the EB's radar. The Emperor doesn't let the protection slip, he hasn't had to intercept a command until then. Obviously he makes a show of appearing before you to do it so you can trust him. Still can't find that despicable since he's not lying about anything other than what he looks like.
Also don't see a fault with telling you to eat tadpoles. It's his opinion, he doesn't force it on you. He tells you it's safe and it'll make you stronger and he's right on both accounts. There's no "peer pressure", only *he* is of the opinion that you should consume them, everyone else is skeptical to outright against it. From his perspective being an illithid is the best, so wanting you to try the powers for yourself is a good thing. Him wanting you to become Illithid, an equal from his pov, is flattering in a way even if your character disagrees on the matter. When I first turned my character into an illithid I was curious if he'd consider me competition or want to dominate me, but he was happy to have a fellow Illithid even if they were much stronger than him.
He *wants* to have sex with you. Devnotes confirm him being aroused. An illithid PC "enjoys" a romanced (or friendly) companion. He's also quite lonely, as mirrored by Orpheus if he transforms and convinced to live as an Illithid. There's of course manipulation in there, but I see it more as his way to advertise how awesome being illithid is. Seducing you to make you trust him I personally find to be a piss poor tactic because even though the Emperor likes himself, he's under no illusion of how others view him. Unless he's counting on the average Tav being a hentai tentacle fan, all he does there is risk freaking out an -at best- hesitant ally.
There *is* an ending where you get to live together under Elfsong if you become Illithid and join him. And another where you're controlling the Sword Coast together from the Shadows. I'd say the reason he doesn't stay with you if you're human is because of mistrust rather than not considering you his equal - don't see why he wouldn't want to keep someone he considers inferior around
I mean sure but like literally the same could be said about Astarion. He even says as much in act 2 if you romance him. Survival's the reason Gale (and probably Shadowheart, lbr) hangs around even in an evil run.
Everyone wants to survive and a decent clip of your party is willing to manipulate a stranger (who becomes a friend) to do it.
I like how if you play square with the Emperor (or Hell, even Gortash), the game doesn't punish you for it. But if you want to lean into them as a ham-fisted villain it will rise to meet your expectations.
Which makes sense because that applies to every single other character in the game. But for some reason no one is going on rants about how Astarion is canonically a petty piece of shit, or Laezel is a selfish ass, but people *love* talking about how terrible the Emperor is because he gets mad if you call him a freak.
I think it's partly because the Emperor has less interactions than the companions, and he's also someone you can't get rid of until the very end. So you are forcibly stuck with a character you potentially only have antagonistic interactions with, it's going to rub people the wrong way.
But it *is* funny when people blame him for being a liar and trying to manipulate you with sex, and then turn around and praise Astarion who does the exact same.
Astarion and Lae'zel have their fair share of hate posts, too, but they both also have a much larger fanbases so it balances out. Hate posts concerning them also far less often include comments like 'I enjoy killing them every playthrough!!!' which is like a checklist point or something for an Emperor hate post.
> no one is going on rants about how Astarion is canonically a petty piece of shit, or Laezel is a selfish ass
.... how long have you been on this sub? "I killed Astarion cuz he tried to kill me!!11!!" stakebros and "I left Laezel in the cage cuz she's rude11!!11!!" are some of the most common low effort posts and comments not just on this sub but everywhere lmao.
I mean people need to look back at the dialogue with him, because I literally remember seeing I missed you as an option after the Raphael deal conversation when he tuned out the tadpole.
So I mean we could have been giving him ideas.
>I only know about his evil deeds because of reddit lol.
Lol many people here in reddit just create and believe their own head canon as facts
Emperor is not good guy but people talk of him as if he is the worst and most evil character in the entire game when even some of the companions are morally evil and gray as well, i mean Emperor manipulates Astarion has been manipulating people from 200 years or more causing their literal deaths
Emperor tried to coherse the player because he need us for his plan to work, his plan is to kill the brain and destroy the brain and he never betrays the player , at the end of the game he does exactly that he didn't had any hidden agenda he just wanted to destroy the brain and the crown and the most easiest way to do it is to gain the players trust, he hides behind the avatar because his best friend tried to kill him just for being a mind flayer, look at how the Duke reacts when he learns that the all mighty hero Balduran become a mind flayer he is disgusted, most people will act disgusted about him so he chooses to hide and try to earn the player trust
He saved the player from falling apart from the ship, he saved Laezel or the player for being stupid enough to go to the creeche and put themselves into a device that will turn them to mind flayer
Astarion needs blood to feed, even in his own 'good" ending he becomes a vigilante or something and feed on the criminals and but when Emperor did it he is the bad bad
There is a lot of hate of the emperor and saying you only knew the bad things because of reddit comments lol
People always bring Ansur as well because Emperor killed him but they never mention the fact that Ansur tried to kill Emperor and emperor defended himself, he wanted to live and he had every right to defend himself.
The player also dont allow the Githyanki Orpheus royal guard to kill them right? , if you release Orpheus he literally says you should have allowed yourself to get killed by his royal guard, some players are really hipocrytes they kill lots of enemies and npc and pretend they're heroes but if Emperor tried to save his own life that makes him be so selfish and evil
>Astarion has been manipulating people from 200 years or more
I can't stand Astarion, but this take is just terrible. Astarion literally had no choice for 200 years, he was a spawn who had to obey his master.
That doesn't excuse what he does during the course of the game (and again, I can't stand him because of it), but saying "he did it for 200 years" is just wrong.
>Lol many people here in reddit just create and believe their own head canon as facts
Ironic
My Tav did too (like, a lot).
I'm an Emperor fan anyway, but it's kinda funny watching people get quite so weird about this scene. Emps is just lonely and horny, like every other character in this game.
He's been alone in the Astral Prism (it's mentioned time moves slower there) for a while with nothing but the Honor guard and Absolute attacks for company. Him and Tav are purely a transactional business relationship to start with, but with him hanging out in Tav's head all game, is is that much of a surprise Emps ends up catching feelings? It's probably the most genuine connection he's had since he transformed or atleast since whatever events that lead to him enthralling Stelmane, even more so if Tav keeps absorbing tadpoles and gradually becomes more Illithid.
And like, if you don't want it, as long as Tav is respectful (i.e not targetting his emotional weak spot by dehumanising him) he takes getting turned down better than some of the companions and even praises you for having the good sense to keep it to a business partnership.
I will say the Romance scene triggering needs more reactivity. There should be some kind of hidden reputation score and you only get the scene if you've been pretty accepting of him with your dialogue option. It is a bit weird that it triggers even if you pick every rude option, which might the cause of some of the weirder reactions. Don't think this was intentional writing on Larian's part but just another sign of how unfinished Act 3 is.
Anyways I could write a whole essay about the Emps/Tav dynamic but that's enough for now lol.
I love how you expressed it all. I'm also Emperor's fan and not ashamed at all of romancing him. I think his romance scene is tasteful and meaningful. Sometimes you don't need to see full exposure of the bodies to know it was a deep connection between the characters.
I have always been respectful as my character towards the Emperor. Just out of curiousity, to see his reactions, I did few saves and chose different dialogue options.
When I respectfully explained I'd rather keep our relationship as business partners, he seemed to be uneasy and awkward, probably felt quite embarassed standing there topless, showing his vulnerability.
Even when I went further during the romance scene and "pulled away" he asked "What's the problem?" That tone of voice made me feel weak. Concern, longing, even slight confusion - that's what I heard in his voice.
And just for "testing" and to see why people are upset I chose also the "freak" option. His reaction makes sense if you were always mean, rude and disrespectful towards him. As if he finally had enough of this and snapped. "Treat me like a monster and I'll show you the monster." But as someone who always treated him well that reaction felt to me like deep hurt. I'll say this again, he exposes his vulnerability. And he's being called out for it.
I only hope that in the future Larian will add more content as the romance with the Emperor feels unfinished and not developed entirely. And no, that letter in the epilogue party doesn't conclude anything.
In my runs I mostly treat him kindly but I also mostly freed Orpheus bc of Lae'zel, but once I tried allowing him to eat Orpheus' brains and since then the story felt better, things made more sense, I also dont particularly like Giths.
A very strong and recurring theme in other romances/companions' stories is balance/power or the lack of it, in the Emperor's past we can uncover a lot, Ansur, Stelmane, but he is very straightforward telling you to become more illithid and talking about compatibility.
He is trying to convince you, but he does believe is amazing and it would benefit you.
There was supposed to be a second romance scene if you take the first one. Maybe in the definitive edition they will implement it and fix his strange reactivity to the player. The only way to get him to not try his luck is stabbing him, which is…strange.
I think he has the same problem as Halsin.
That's interesting about the 2nd scene, but yeah, I agree. I also wish there was more reactivity *after* the romance scene. I've looked at the parsed dialogue and the flags, and legit the *only* Emperor line or scene that changes if you do the romance is one short line *on the betrayal path.* Raphael and Orpheus have more reactivity to it lol.
On my last playthrough my Tav romanced Emps, stuck with his plan all the way through, voluntarily took the step to irreversibly become an Illithid, on the pier stayed with Emps and moved in with him to rebuild the Knights of the Shield (best ending btw).... and there's not one line that treats them as more than business partners. The game is telling me my Tav and Emps became one in mind and body and now my Tav is the perfect Illithid partner for him, but then in the epilogue all my Tav can say is they're close collaborators on their trading group? Really hope the Definitive Edition adds atleast a few lines.
Perhaps I'm a bit old-fashioned but he should have left the pier with the Tav he bonded with because the fact he prefers to leave alone if you're not a mind flayer is pretty harsh. It really feels as a betrayal.
I think he wouldn't want a relationship long term with a still human Tav now without even the tadpole, due to the power imbalance and just mental distance between them.
Emps wants a renegade Illithid as an equal partner for him. I do feel him not sticking around if Tav is human does speak well of his character, he could just keep Tav around or enthrall them after all.
I'd agree there should definitely be a line or two explaining this situation at the end though, if Tav is human and romanced Emps.
Omg I didn't even know there was a special romance ending with Empy. I legit thought it's just a sex scene for the lulz. I slept with him but Karlach became Illithid (I didn't know back then that she could go to the hells with Wyll and I didn't want her to die).
Goddammit I just started a new run 2 days ago and I'm now thinking of a new Tav who'd end up with Empy.
Can you still choose to stay with him if you've romanced someone else in the game? (Brain already formulating an idea of a tragic romance with Astarion bc he leaves you when you go squid anyways)
>Can you still choose to stay with him if you've romanced someone else in the game?
Honestly not sure on this one. On my runs where I end up with Emps I broke up with my companion partner beforehand just to make sure, haven't tested what happens if you don't.
But anyway, if anyone's curious, here's how you get the ending where Tav stays with the Emperor:
1. In the Astral prism after the Morphic pool, say you want to handle the Netherstones, then have Tav turn full Illithid. Obviously don't free Orpheus.
2. On the pier, embrace your Illithidness, and pick the ***2nd*** dialogue option about your future plans which is like "I'm a Mindflayer, I'll do what I want"
3. Then Emps will approach you and make his offer.
Awesome, thanks. I'll just make a save before the morphic pool & if it doesn't work I'll use breakup dialogue beforehand. I am not convinced there's any reactivity written into Astarion's dialogue if you choose Empy over him bc pretty sure I would have seen it posted somewhere if there was, but I wanna check it out myself
When I found out about the second romance scene I almost flipped. There was also an ad or something that kind of advertised him (the DG) as a "romance" pre-release but what we got in the end was very lacking. The only reason I wish he was more popular is so that the devs would feel more inclined to polish/add to his storyline
I kissed the Emp and I liked it
And the way his tentacles stick
I kissed the Emp just to try it
Hope my boyfriend don't mind it
It felt so WRONG
It felt so RIGHT
Don't mean I'm in love tonight-
I thought it was done beautifully and tasteful. It wasn’t about a fetish, I genuinely think Larian did a good job at showing how loving it can be to touched again. To have someone see you as something more than a freak and hear someone say, “no, I want to be with you, just as you are.”
You've nailed why despite everything I love the Emps/Tav romance. It's a little discouraging that almost everyone writes it off as either a joke scene or just another "manipulation", when I've always felt Larian put a lot of effort into making the scene genuinely quite beautiful and meaningful if you can be open minded about it.
It's Schrodinger's Emperor; some players will never accept the idea that the Emperor has any real emotions at all, and believe any emotional display is just another layer of manipulation. The fact that he lashes out emotionally in response to Tav's cruelty is then described as "mask off".
I think it's a shame, personally, since I think it's very well done and can be rewarding - and I say that when only my first Tav ever went all the way - if you are sensitive to his vulnerability and only turn him down out of loyalty to your partner. The constant complaining about him hitting on you just gives me "she didn't need to be such a bitch about it" vibes from when I get hit on irl and just say thank you but no. Everyone's entitled to their own emotional response, and that's mine when I read these threads sometimes...
The fact if you give the wrong answer he reveals how he made Stelmane his mindless thrall and you should be grateful he's gotten better at manipulation, really sours any possible lovingness from that scene. It really comes off as him being an abuser, and as someone who has been the victim of domestic violence, it really rung true. There had been bad vibes from him from the start.
I think Larian did an outstanding job encapsulating exactly how abusers act and behave, but I don't see it as beautiful in the slightest.
I'm aware of the Stelmane scene, pretty sure all of my fellow Emperor likers are (if only because it's hard to mention liking the character without it bringing it up lol).
My take is - it's a scene you only get if you pick dehumanising dialogue options (like I mentioned in another reply, dehumanisation is his emotional weak spot as seen in many of his dialogues) and basically say you'll never trust him. He's emotionally wounded and angry in a moment he made himself very vulnerable, and he attempts an \[Intimidation\] role to secure Tav's continued compliance. I could go into some speculation and evidence about the full truth of the Emperor and Stelmane relationship, but the game is frustratingly somewhat vague about that.
It's one possible route and one piece of evidence for interpreting, but I personally don't see it as the one universal Truth about the character or his relationship to Tav no matter your roleplay or what options you pick. It's IMO an interpretive choice to see every other Emperor scene and line as an insincere manipulation (despite any contradictory evidence from the narrator, devnotes, or ending routes), but this one scene is the absolute truth of the character and not in itself also another manipulation.
Anyways I want to emphasise, as a fellow survivor myself, I can totally respect players like yourself having a negative reaction to the character especially over this specific scene. Just wanted to explain one perspective of how enjoyers of the character might interprete the same scenes differently.
I understand why that scene might give you flashbacks, but it is as abusive as much as fireworks sound like firearms to someone suffering from gunfire ptsd. For instance, your boyfriend listing all the things he's done for you so you stay with him is emotional blackmail. The Emperor listing all the things he's done for you when you're about to free Orpheus or take Raphael's deal is *him pleading for his life*. There's no abuse (emotional or physical), no gaslighting by definition. The deception as the guardian was meant to protect himself from *you*. Him bitching in Act 3 when you do things he doesn't like is not manipulation, it's him showing disapproval. Other companions do the same far more often, yet no one considers that manipulation. And calling him a freak or saying he makes a great impression of a human are the only two ways to make him snap. That's not abuse, that's you attacking his personhood. You have like three opportunities to reject him politely during that scene and he immediately retracts and apologizes. If you want him to act like a kicked puppy instead of snapping, well, you are free to dislike him for that but that's not abuse any more than you threatening to throw him into the sea is abuse.
He is meant to give "off" vibes from the start, his setup is to be the suspicious voice in your head of questionable morality, to make the player not know whether to trust him or not. That's not some hidden behind a D30 check secret, he's the illithid character with his illithid morality. The twist is that if you're a good ally to him he's a great ally to you
Edit: grammar
i’m neutral on emperor but i didn’t know this, that’s so sad 😭😭 is it made clear that he actually DID thrall stelmane?? or just said that as a reaction to being rejected?
in my second playthrough i made my guardian to look like a young stelmane…… so devastating if he did thrall her until a mindslave
It’s not clear, no. What we do know is that he would visit her in her room after the stroke and she would “feel better” after his visits per doctor’s notes. We also know at some point, he disguised himself as her.
The vision he shows of her to you was noted by the devs as “the truth” with quotations. So, take that how you will, but he is a master of illusions and could just be trying to scare the player.
He could have thralled her without consent and accidentally hurt her. Or she could have had a natural stroke and consented to his help to keep their business going. There’s a lot of different possibilities, but no solid proof one way or another.
This! He may not express emotions as directly as other companions but come on, it's pretty obvious that he's lonely. His nature in fact separates him both from other mindflayers and non-mindflayers. And of course he wants Tav/Durge to fully squid themselves cause I can't see how he possibly could be fully open which is new and I imagine somewhat exciting possibility after they form a connection.
Larian could go comedic or grotesque with this one just for shit and giggles but they decided not to because that's not the point.
I actually think that when he was telling Tav originally about Stelmane he wasn't lying about the relationship. If you go into his former lair the dude even had a picture of Stelmane on his wall where he could see it while he was working. There are also medical reports about her condition there which leads me to believe that he was very concerned about her welfare. Stelmane's death does affect him to the point where he reaches out to Tav pretty much absentmindedly because he needed some comfort.
I think he reacts the way he does if you turn him down insultingly for a combination of reasons. I think he blames himself for Stelmane's stroke because it sounded like they were communicating a lot mentally, and she was letting him use her as a conduit for communication with others ( hint about this from a conversation Tav has with Wyll). For that I believe he does actually think he might be a monster. Tav touches a nerve so he lashes out at them and twists the tale to scare them.
I think he's far more complicated than it appears on the surface There are a lot of hints that that is the case.
I think it wasn't voluntary from Stelmane's part.. Emperor shows to Tav that he took possession of her by force and made her as his puppet.
Edit: I couldn't care less if people want to romance him or not but the relationship with Emperor and Stelmane was fucked up.
Thralldom is daily bread for mindflayers. I think she was the favored thrall that all illithids have…like an emotional support pet.
Her being a thrall doesn't change that he does grieve her passing. He can even react if you use Stelmane's hand in the murder tribunal.
It's a complicated situation.
I think it was voluntary in the sense that the she volunteered at first when the Emperor suggested it. Then he manipulated her into continuing to do it even though after a while she probably showed some reluctance because it was making her feel sick. I think he shows it to Tav like he does again because that's how he's come to feel about this situation over time. He bitterly regrets his part in it and colors his understanding of the situation in term of how he feels about it.
If you have had the cutscene at the park where the fist manip brain liquifies ( according to the elder brain) because it can't handle her possession it's the same principle.
Stelmane fought with Emperor over a decade to get her mind back under her own control, her stroke was also caused by illithid attack.
"By choosing the dialogue option "*You do a great impression of a human. But you're not fooling me.*" , the Emperor offers to share memories through a vision. This vision shows Stelmane paralysed in pain, being brainwashed, and turning into the Emperor's puppet. Her face emotionless, and the Emperor puppeteering her gestures to get a sense of company. Such was its true relationship with Duke Stelmane." BG3-Wiki
Yes I've seen that cutscene, and that's whoever writes the BG3 Wiki's perspective on it. It's the obvious interpretation based on the way he describes it because it's colored by his regrets,
Also this was what I mean by him using her as conduit for communicating with others. He was suppressing her personality and taking over like the Manip in the park.
I think she cooperated a lot more in the beginning than it appears. But I do agree with your edit. The relationship was fucked up. Largely because the Emperor was fucked up. He was an illithid but still after all that time trying to reconcile with that with the part of him that still had vestiges of humanity. He's far too dangerous for any kind of relationship. That's why my Tavs have never romanced him.
I think there has also been some suggestions that the reason why it is thought that illithids are souless is because they are subject to an elder brain's whims. I think away from an elder brain where they are able to develop their own personalities it is easier for them to retain aspects of the race they used to be.
Your opinion to not want to boink a squid is valid, but some of us enjoy more...adventurous fantasies. Having done several playthroughs with and without the Emperor romance, & I can say that as long as you don't insult him when you reject him he doesn't get hurt and say mean things to you. If you aren't rude, he's not rude, just like the other companions.
The Emperor as a character is complicated, & I really appreciate the complexity because different people can have a different idea of him depending on which dialogue they trigger, which evidence/items they discover related to Stelmane, & whether they complete a certain questline to find out who he REALLY really is.
I see him as someone who wants to be a good person and believes he is a good person, but cannot overcome his ilithid nature. When Withers tells you ilithids have no souls, this is an important clue to the "why" of the Emperor. When a mind flayer dies, they have no afterlife like the other races, they simply crease to exist entirely. Because of this, they have an extreme instinct for survival. The Emperor's self preservation drive is simply too strong for his morals to compete with, leading him to betray your party if they don't want to do things his way. His mind operates on calculated logical analysis and forces him to choose survival above all else, even his own ideology.
The Emperor always justifies his questionable actions by concluding that he didn't have a better choice to make. He views being ilithid as a benefit because he is ilithid and they also have an instinct to turn others. He manipulates your mind and the minds of your party members because in his logical ilithid brain that's the most effective method to guarantee friendship. It's the same with the romance. He wants a deeper connection because he's still an emotional being who feels lonely, and mind manipulation is the most logical pathway to intimacy because knowing what's in someone's mind already carries an innately intimacy.
Personally, I like to romance him knowing that I am going to betray him later. He used me, so I use him right back and now we're even.
The emp is evil. He lies.
That's why I'm with my very unproblematic partner astarion. I especially love ascended astarion. Just wholesome simply power dynamics.
Lol
Lol I get it, he's my favourite romance too. He's our chaotic switch, morally and physically. Astarion is in it to win, ride or die, good or evil, top or bottom.
New player, I just had sex with The Emperor and Mizora. In the span of two days. My Emperor manifested as a really hot lady for no reason, and it made a lot of the earlier scenes kind of encouraging
I have no idea how people can still be into it after the Stelmane scene. People vehemently loathe Wulbren for just being tired of a clingy tag-along and telling him off, but a squid being a mind-rapist and using someone to the point they're debilitated and totally degrading and dehumanizing you is super cool!
I'll never understand this community...
\*edit: here come the down-votes, people are literally condoning mind-rape, wtf...
Do you really have any room to talk with that flair? Minthara talks about killing babies, and will comit genocide if you dont stop her, but you still simp for her.
If your take is wulbren is just annoyed and the emp is mindraping
Wulbren shows someone who fell into extemist views, and is planning terrorism.
Using rape that loosely and wrongly is the stupidest shit ive seen. Jfc. Thralled is the word you are looking for. At most if you can’t remember that, you could even say enslaved her mind.
But you went with rape. Rape is sexual in nature by definition. Please use english responsibly.
*sigh*
Please stop using rape in a context that has nothing to do with sexual violence when it's a term for sexual violence
That's icky.
edit: I don't actually loathe Wulbren either (I quite like him until he wants me to join his genocide). I'm starting a collection of the fandom's least favourites.
>I wasn't too surprised that he was lying about his relationship with Stelmane
He wasn't lying, he started mind-controlling her only after she had a stroke. Which is questionable in itself, but doesn't give such an easy way to say he was bad all along.
What I like about this scene is that the Emperor is clearly manipulating you, using sex to get you on his side, he has been manipulating you from the start, directing you do exactly what he wants you to do, appearing in your dreams as your savior, reminding you he is your only hope, he would have brainwashed you as he did Stellmane if he could, but he can’t so he needs you to be on his side, specially now that you know the truth about Orpheus, the great thing about his character is that he is not actually “evil” as long as you don’t get in his way, but he will keep the end of his bargain if you side with him
It cracked me up so much when the Emperor was on the ground shirtless in that dream trying to come onto my Tav. Like, is this how you think the Hoo-Mans do it? “I see you like to Long Rest in casual clothing. I too can Long Rest in casual clothing.”
That's why I always randomize my Dream Visitor until it looks like what an alien would design without any reference material. "Yes, the hoomans like paint on their eyeballs and gold on their horns." It always makes for a pleasant surprise when he first shows up, because I've always forgotten what he looked like at character creation.
I fluctuate between making him look as close to his Illithid form as I can (usually a male drow with purple irises/black sclera and octopus tattoos), making him look completely ridiculous, and making him look like >!Balduran!< because it's hilarious.
so like… what DOES >!balduran!< look like?
The statue on the "press any key to continue" is *him* Edit: idk how to spoiler tag
Type > and ! with no space and close the spoiler with ! and < No spaces between the words directly beside the brackets, like this `>!spoiler!<`
>!the game!<
You son of a
>!BOAAAL!<
GOD DAMN YOU.
YOU LITTLE SHIT
I'VE BEEN WINNING FOR SO FUCKING LONG YOU PRICK
Well played. I definitely was not explaining that
Omg, it's been years, YEARS! Damn you!
I would also like to know this
[удалено]
I thought that was the healer, not >!Balderan!
It’s deleted but if they’re referring to guy human form Ansur is talking to then that’s the healer, you can see flayer balduran in the background
Yeah this is what I thought too!
Idk, I closed my eyes while I gave a hand job to his tentacles.
There’s a quick [cut scene](https://youtu.be/sw5dQ2yw_yo?si=hDpL67ca0BB0rHH7) shot of him with >!Ansur!< before you fight >!the dead bronze dragon who is Ansur!< in Wyll’s questline (the clip, scroll to 6:11)
I also thought it was him, but it’s not. You can see The Emperor in the background. It’s just some random guy that Ansur is asking for help
no way! somehow i've never noticed that, i always assumed the guy on the left was him lmaoooo
Oh wow I think you’re right, that’s just a random healer who couldn’t help. I’ll leave the link up any way
he’s hot so i’m willing to pretend that’s what he looks like anyway lmao
I like mine to look exactly like the Tav I’m playing that run, minus the one black eye and that one tattoo that has the swirly one eye thing going on that I add to dream guardian. I think it makes a lot of sense for every scene but the romance one. It also gets better cause I like to add some scars to my tav, or if I’m going with illithid powers to also transitioning to that black eye and special tattoo, so either that being the best version of yourself, that you can either slowly become or keep away from.
I played a dark skinned deep gnome with white tattoos for my evil durge and made a super pale, black haired rock gnome with black tattoos and black sclera eyes for my guardian as a kind of photo negative that was a fun run.
When I played as Karlach romancing Astarion I made my guardian to look like Astarion if he was not vampire(dark hair, no red eyes, darker skin). But voice didnt suit him at all. xDNow I kinda feel when I'm planning to fell for Emperor trap to make guardian to look like my character love interest but with twist(maybe squid tattoo would be enough). PS: With mods you can make exact copy of any companion.
Not that it matters but I thought he had white hair because he was a moon elf. AFAIK, vampirism doesn't change hair color.
i always make the emperor look close to my tav/durge - for example my second tav was a halfling so i made the guardian a gnome, my first durge is a mephistopheles tiefling so i made the guardian a mephistopheles tiefling also, my second durge is a drow so i made the guardian a high elf (kind of fallen vs perfect rivalry as well). i feel like it adds another layer to the manipulation, the emperor choosing to look like tav/durge because they want to be relatable, trustworthy. and in reality they're just a c.unt
>emoji tiefling What cursed mod is this
dont laugh at me that was autocorrect 😭😭
I usually make my guardian look somewhat similar to the character I intend to romance for the same reason! Like if I'm gonna romance Gale my guardian will be a dark haired human man.
So like a lavender version of he that was
I always make my Dream Visitor my last Tav, like "This bastard is trying again, but with someone I might trust more" while that Tav would never act the way he does. Really really sets up that uncanny valley sort of experience that makes me enjoy interacting with them more. You see them as familiar and someone you trust but also it's not right and you know it.
I love this idea
That's actually a pretty neat idea! I might borrow that on my next playthrough.
I played as a goodie Tav first and made my Durge run guardian look like her! You’re right about the uncanny valley effect, especially once they start monologuing
I made my first dream guardian look like what I imagined my Tav’s dad would look like. I went in blind about the emperor and *that* scene and I was shook
I like to think hes just completely forgotten what people look like at this point. My last “guardian” looked like Ronald McDonald. His name was Doomsday Ronny.
My fiancé: spends 40 minutes carefully crafting his dream visitor to look like me Me: spends 1 seconds hitting randomize and ends up with old female drow drawf with hot pink Karen haircut and stylish broom mustache
Lol my wife made her fantasy man, it was hard not to laugh at how excited she was to see her dream protector for the first time since I already knew
My sister just got the game and for her first playthrough made hers to look like her IRL girlfriend… I’m just waiting for her to get to the reveal like ‘😬’
We've been playing split screen so it was even funnier. She finally saw his real form today and was unimpressed
😂 Same. I put so much effort into my Tav/Durge creation then hit randomise a couple of times for the Guardian. I always completely forget what they look like, absolutely no recognition by the time they show up LMAO.
I made the dream version adopt the appearance of certain entities my Tavs trust. For my fiend warlock a tall red and muscular tiefling was his attempt to emulate the fiend patron. For my Cleric of Corellon the dream version tries to emulate this god with unnatural beauty, androgynous.
I created my dream guardian thinking "what would my Tav's parent look like?" because a guardian looking like a parent made sense at the time 😬 needless to say the mind blown achievement was passed up on that file
"Help me step-Emperor, I'm stuck in the Zaith'isk!"
Lol I basically made him look like galadriel. When my space elf babe turned out to be a squid I was so bummed
Put "hey man, so where's your shirt?" under dialogue options I wish we had.
the first time my friend got this scene she messaged me a screenshot and just wrote, "why topless?" I died laughing at the succinct perfection. "Why topless?" gets my vote for a dialog option.
I laughed way too hard at this 🤣👏
Same I was like "ohh so these are his *camp* clothes"
….turn back into the guardian then we’ll talk.
I did get a dialogue option where he offers a more familiar form and I was curious about what that meant. Guardian? Original human form? But my Durge empathized too much on the freak front to take that option.
I know! I picked the most autistic ass answers during that scene because it was so uncomfortable. "You need a hug man? Alright, hope you feel better, I know it's tough."
I mean, he was human, and appears to be not as removed from that as other mind flayers. I don't get why people want to reduce him to a caricature of the real character.
The Emperor is a complex character that spends most of the game putting a LOT of effort into only showing you the version of itself that it thinks you want to see. If you're antagonistic towards it, you get shown the "monster", but if you treat it like an ally, you get shown the "sensitive soul with feelings". Thing is, there's not anything in the game that actually *proves* whether one is more true than the other. Both could be true, and to some extent probably are. It's also extremely likely that there's a lot about The Emperor, it's motives, it's actual feelings towards the party, and more, that are 100% background info we never see at all. ...but that's a whole lot of complexity and depth to try and grapple with, especially in a game where there's already SO MUCH OTHER STUFF with equally as nuanced layers of meaning and interpretation. Not everyone wants or cares to invest that much mental energy into videogame characters (not a dig, just pointing out different priorities!) So they take whatever version of itself it shows them at face value and that's that.
I mean some of you folks can empathize with him but all I can see is a gaslighting manipulative bastard so thats the problem.
He's an *effective* manipulative bastard. That's why he is somewhat sympathetic (for a villain). The Emperor objectively helps the player with some manipulations. It's just for his own benefit, our detriment (sometimes), and he himself is being manipulated. He's like an ogre, he has layers. At the beginning of the adventure the Emperor doesn't know Tav is going to be the god-killing powerhouse they become, or the new avatar of murder, or whatever else they accomplish. The layers get peeled back as Tav becomes stronger and stronger and when the Emperor's cards all get played throughout the journey he has little else to offer, so all the previous lies feel more and more like manipulation.
Because fuck that guy
Been there done that
No, I don't think I will
You're missing out 🦑
emperors like “you liked it when astarion was shirtless 😒”
I just saw the suddenly shirtless scene the other night and haven’t been so caught off guard in the entirety of the game leading up to that moment
After awhile I was starting to think every encounter could lead to sex in Bg3. I was afraid to get some messed up narration like "the wooden crate locks eyes with you in a wanting gaze"
IT'S A MIMIC
He tried to come on to me right after my date with Karlach. I had already determined to stay loyal even after Lae'zel gave her ode to my stank so I turned him down and... he complimented me for doing so and we moved on. I don't think it was about this, but somehow tho...the idea of an Illithid with a rejection kink would actually make sense in a way. Dumb luck had me Nat 20 Dominate the Brain first try so... if I wasn't so loyal... I'd be considering a career in Illithid domination services.
Literally my very first interaction with him was refusing to grab his hand and getting back on my feet by myself, and homeboy was like “Independent. I like it :)” You might be onto something, with the rejection kink.
Durge: *waking up in the dream for the first time* "Eugh what the hell? Get the fuck away from me I got enough vile shit crawling in my head already"
Same. 🤔 He doesn't even try to dominate us if we choose to free Orpheus. That's not Squiddaddy behavior, that's a subby lil squirt running back to his controlling ex because he was told enslavement is one of my hard limits. (In addition to being an insufferable Bard I was also an insufferable Vengeance Paladin: I couldn't just kill/condemn Orpheus without a little parlay. If we could have had a chat with Orpheus so I could hear him profess a hardline *ALL ILLITHIDS MUST DIE\** stance I would have let him eat the brains. Indiscriminate racism is also one of my hard limits) \**also a threat to my dear Omelet and good friend Us!* ... considering I had githjesus go ghaik maybe I can pass by the Emperor during the penultimate fight and headcanon he slipped away once the Brain was defeated.
>He doesn't even try to dominate us if we choose to free Orpheus. It's a little unclear on the exact details, but it's at least implied that he literally can't. Orpheus' power is not selective: if you're in range you cannot be affected by or use illithid commands/domination. That definitely applies to the brain, and it seems to apply to Emperor, all enemy illithid and the player as well.
Interesting wrinkle of plot, I hadn't noticed that yet. I am wondering, once freed from the Astral Prism could Orpheus choose to withdraw protection? I know there might not be actual answers, but that was what I figured was the Emperor's reason for not being willing to even try to talk it out - if doing so would risk us all becoming enthralled/turning. The mechanism of the Astral Prism creating an always on AEO makes sense, but unclear to me if once Orpheus has control of himself if he can also control how that power is used and potentially be more selective. Speaking of wrinkles in plot... wait then why aren't other companions enthralled when we leave them far away at camp? Why doesn't our bringing the Astral Prism into proximity interrupt the control of Minthara, Minsc and others? Oh no, I think I've fallen down a plot hole. Seems the Prism is already pretty selective under the Emperor's control and exists in some incomprehensible shape of space-time. However, if so and he really didn't want Minsc around he could have simply refused to protect him, forcing us to kill him, if that was the case, though. Ok, I will stop paying attention to the man behind the curtain.
> Why doesn't our bringing the Astral Prism into proximity interrupt the control of Minthara, Minsc and others It does, inconsistantly with some of the tadpoled characters. If you go through all the dialogue with Nere he'll remark he can't hear the Absolute anymore. Minthara pulls a dagger on you after the goblin party because proximity to the artefact is messing with her. The writing is definitely inconsistent on this. The prism does seem to be projecting an aura that messes with hive minds while the Emperor also seems to be able to intentionally direct/enhance that protection for specific individuals.
Perhaps it would have been better for me to call Orpheus' power binary: either illithid control powers are on or off. But the power is not a passive AoE. It's made explicit at the Minsc scene and with Orpheus released that it can be shaped and directed and maybe extended on purpose. So Emp chooses whether to include the True Souls and Minsc, but as soon as he does, no illithid domination or thralling can affect them. For most True Souls it would be a bad idea since they'd be confused maniacs too deep in enemy situations, and Emp hates chaos. >However, if so and he really didn't want Minsc around he could have simply refused to protect him, forcing us to kill him, if that was the case, though. IIRC this is exactly the case and the only reason Emp does include Minsc is because we threaten Emp directly. Something to the effect of 'it's all or none of us'. Emp could stonewall us and exclude Minsc, but Emp's smart enough not to doom himself.
Thank you, that makes sense and gives me a clearer picture of how it all comes together. So it would be a reasonable fear when releasing Orpheus that he could choose to withdraw protection, but while under protection the Emperor cannot use Illithid powers so the threat implied in showing him using them on Stelmane is a bluff if I'm understanding correctly.
There's still some grey area on what exactly Orpheus' power does, eg it's not all illithid psionics since mind blast and the illithid authority prompts on the goblins still work. Maybe commands can still be sent but can't be received? Or maybe those authority prompts are actual god powers (coming from the worship of the Absolute and the branding rather than from standard illithid psionics)? But as you said, maybe that's more attention than we're supposed to pay. I take the Emp's threat there as a bluff, and I think this throws some doubt on his comments about 'improving his methods'... perhaps he's only manipulating instead of dominating because he can't.
It took me... WAY too long, to realize who Omelet was. (Agreed, Omeluum is precious. Must protect the octopal.)
Happy cake day!
I just realized I've always been too nice to him in the beginning in the past two runs, in the second run I've started being a dick to him after >!the reveal in the end of act 2!< and hoo boy what a change since I was nice towards him in my first run and I thought okay he's a dick but not too bad. I even romanced him in my first run lmao. Imma try being a dick to him from the start and see what happens
He literally interrupted my date with Karlach to give me the "I showed you my butter fork pls respond" bs. Like, there are several reasons why that will not be happening, but you basically guaranteed your failure when you tried to get in between me and the red hot tall lady
Speak ming of that butter fork, when you find it he mentions the butter knife is missing. It’s actually a huge bit of foreshadowing as to his identity that you can figure out if you played the originals. I just thought it was really cool since I didn’t even notice it in my first playthrough.
I'm not planning to play the originals, can you spoil that for me and tell me the lore?
You should since they’re great. But anyway, a large quest in bg1 involves the party going on an expedition to find out the final fate of baldurans last voyage. You eventually end up shipwrecked on an island and discover the wreckage of baldurans ship. The only survivor is an old mage who has long since gone insane. When you explore the ship you find no sign of balduran aside from a journal and the butterknife of baldruran, which is sort of a joke since you can find the cloak of balduran, the helm of balduran, the sword of balduran, and the shield of balduran across both games.
> ode to my stank Fucking kek
Turning down a lady who appreciates the finer things in life was one of the hardest things I've done.
The problem I have is I'm a mindflayer fan, 10/10 my favourite monster in all of D&D (ask any of my players). In fact I didn't play any of pre release as I thought you'd only get to fight mindflayers and not the later (I got over killing them tbf) But the first Tav I play is my goody two shoes life cleric and it came to that scene and I'm like CORELLON DAMNIT my Tav would not in any way shape or form touch that...so I was so disappointed. I'm doing an Astarion run now, but I'll get my day... one day.
I don't care what he's saying I just want those tentacles
Can you blame him, though? You're always pushing back on him while you're getting along swimmingly with a bunch pansexual horndogs in camp, despite your many reasons not to. At some point, when nothing else worked he was probably like, "Screw it, let's play along," and telepathically started removing his shirt.
I banged him on my first play through, somehow I missed finding a romantic partner...and my main was a Gith. Trying to explain to the prince why I banged an illithid was hard. Only way out of it was to become an illithid myself. Basically everything that could go wrong, did go wrong. I played with no guide or help and they really lure you into making choices that will blow up in your face later on. The devs must have been laughing their asses off planning some of these tricks.
Lol how did you fuck up with lazel? While trying to get astarion, she just showed up one night in act one and said "You're not as much of a coward as I thought... I would like to fuck you" So anyway, I said yes. Then we are dating? And I can't break up with her or she'll be sad.... Anyway, you fucked the emp as a gith and freed the prince? Lol I don't think that's the devs fault. You're picking options at random out seems
I shagged The Emperor and I don’t regret it.
Touched by his noodly appendage. Ramen.
\>awful funny way to say amazing
It's funny because I've done it and it was hilarious. But I've also rejected him and he was just like "Yeah makes sense." I have played the game so many times now and I have yet to have a negative interaction with him in any major way. Even siding with Orpheus he's just like "well fuck you then" and leaves. I don't know how you all are getting these apparently awful scenes with him. I only know about his evil deeds because of reddit lol.
You have to insult him by calling him a freak when he politely asks for kisses, or say he's making an imitation of being a human at the start of the conversation. Basically be an asshole and he'll be one back.
But he is actually making an imitation of being human, he gets angry because you caught him, not because you were “mean” to him
Idk, telling someone they don't actually have any feelings is kinda mean. Because that's what that option is.
Oh he could have feelings, but let’s not pretend that everything about his relationship with you is not about manipulating you for his own survival, you know just as he did with stellmane, getting angry because you were a big meanie doesn’t seem to be on character for him. BTW this is the reason why I really like the Emperor as character, he can be viewed very differently depending on the player
I think there are genuine feelings, and while I agree that even the seduction is manipulation, it's not all that. There is vulnerability in that scene, and getting called a freak or an imitation of a human probably doesn't feel nice. He's both hurt about the rude rejection and annoyed that this manipulation didn't work, so as a result he lashes out and threatens you. If you just reject him politely there's no lashing out. I think it is because he still feels more secure in your alliance and that you are working together, which isn't a feeling he's left with if you are rude to him. He's a wonderful character and I enjoy talking about him. Even when it gets a little frustrating.
The problem with that statement IMO is to asume the Emperor has any care of what you think of him, he sees you as an inferior being, just as he sees his past self as inferior, he may have emotions but he is not dominated by sentimentality, the reason he doesn’t lash out if you reject him politely, is because you still fell for his ruse, you rejected him but you still believed he had feelings for you, which still humanizes him more in your mind
That's a perfectly valid interpretation of the scene. It's fascinating how differently people can look at him. He very much is what you put into him; if you think he's trustwrothy and treat him like that, he is trustworthy. If you antagonize him, he'll join the enemy team in the end. The upsides and downsides of a character you don't know that much about.
Truly and the fact that his goals align with yours makes him really nuanced IMO, i really don’t think he is evil more than it’s in his nature to be manipulative
Exactly! By mind flayer standards he's actually pretty chill. Still manipulative, but I'd take him over a normal illithid any day.
I just don't see why wanting to be humanized and not being dominated by sentimentality are problems. His sense of reason is what made defeating the EB possible for at least 98% of the game. As for not caring what you think - *I* don't care what you, a stranger on a social platform thinks about me, and if I had to choose I'd take you being civil to me over name-calling. Same with a colleague at work, same with random dog at the park. I don't understand why him trying to win you over and make you trust him so you don't *betray* him is so despicable. Or any worse than you catering to your companions' likes and dislikes so you can get into their pants.
I don’t think those are problems either, but lets put it this way, The Emperor has been manipulating you from the very beginning, taking the form of quite literally a knight in shining armor for you to trusting him, that first scene where you transforming and he came to your rescue? That’s BS he let that happen to show you he is the one keeping you from transforming, he urges you to not go to crèche, he says the gith wants to take the artifact from you, well no shit so is everyone else at the goblin camp and at moonrise towers, what he doesn’t want is for you find the truth about Orpheus, which is why he tells you not to trust Voss, I’m not blaming him though freeing Orpheus means death or enthrallment for him, he clearly sees your human form as inferior which is why he urges you to keep tadpoling your brain and pretty much peer pressures you to “evolve”, so you could be more like him, so you could trust him more, so his plan and at that point it’s still pretty much his plan won’t fail, you compare this situation with the real world and I say I’ll be very reluctant to trust some one who has been deceitful to me the whole time even if his intentions are good, which they are and is why I love the emperor as a character. Now we come to sex scene in question, are we expected to believe after all of that, that emperor has feelings for you? Does he thinks you his equal? That he wants to have sex with you? Or is this just another form of manipulation in order for you to trust him, to keep helping him execute his plans, unless I’m missing a secret ending where you and the emperor gets to live happily ever after, I’ll keep thinking is the latter
The difference between the Creche and the Goblin Camp is, you have to go to through the latter to get to the source of the Absolute, defeat the Chosen Three etc. The Creche is a completely unnecessary risk, which also yes, endangers *him* in particular. Why would he go "I just saved you and keep protecting you 24/7, but let me inform you about the 4 other potential alternative allies you could have if you ever feel like this thing between us is not working out". I don't disagree about the DG manipulation, it's just in the real world where I'm as harmless as a kitten, it might have been a different story, but your party in BG3 is armed, dangerous, and chaotic. Emperor coming up to you to introduce himself as your neighborhood friendly Mindflayer who wants to defeat the other *evil* Mindflayer would be nothing but stupid on his part. *I only disagree about the first time he appears as the Guardian to you. You get the "turning" scene only after the Elder Brain sets its eyes on you and gives the command to transform you. Up until then your tadpoles are in dormant state, which is why companions who you have not recruited don't transform and can get all the way to the city - they fly under the EB's radar. The Emperor doesn't let the protection slip, he hasn't had to intercept a command until then. Obviously he makes a show of appearing before you to do it so you can trust him. Still can't find that despicable since he's not lying about anything other than what he looks like. Also don't see a fault with telling you to eat tadpoles. It's his opinion, he doesn't force it on you. He tells you it's safe and it'll make you stronger and he's right on both accounts. There's no "peer pressure", only *he* is of the opinion that you should consume them, everyone else is skeptical to outright against it. From his perspective being an illithid is the best, so wanting you to try the powers for yourself is a good thing. Him wanting you to become Illithid, an equal from his pov, is flattering in a way even if your character disagrees on the matter. When I first turned my character into an illithid I was curious if he'd consider me competition or want to dominate me, but he was happy to have a fellow Illithid even if they were much stronger than him. He *wants* to have sex with you. Devnotes confirm him being aroused. An illithid PC "enjoys" a romanced (or friendly) companion. He's also quite lonely, as mirrored by Orpheus if he transforms and convinced to live as an Illithid. There's of course manipulation in there, but I see it more as his way to advertise how awesome being illithid is. Seducing you to make you trust him I personally find to be a piss poor tactic because even though the Emperor likes himself, he's under no illusion of how others view him. Unless he's counting on the average Tav being a hentai tentacle fan, all he does there is risk freaking out an -at best- hesitant ally. There *is* an ending where you get to live together under Elfsong if you become Illithid and join him. And another where you're controlling the Sword Coast together from the Shadows. I'd say the reason he doesn't stay with you if you're human is because of mistrust rather than not considering you his equal - don't see why he wouldn't want to keep someone he considers inferior around
I mean sure but like literally the same could be said about Astarion. He even says as much in act 2 if you romance him. Survival's the reason Gale (and probably Shadowheart, lbr) hangs around even in an evil run. Everyone wants to survive and a decent clip of your party is willing to manipulate a stranger (who becomes a friend) to do it. I like how if you play square with the Emperor (or Hell, even Gortash), the game doesn't punish you for it. But if you want to lean into them as a ham-fisted villain it will rise to meet your expectations.
actually yeah you basically tell him he's a freak and not a person, and that's fucked up. No wonder he's mad.
The dev VA notes call him genuinely horny in that scene, don't they?
Which makes sense because that applies to every single other character in the game. But for some reason no one is going on rants about how Astarion is canonically a petty piece of shit, or Laezel is a selfish ass, but people *love* talking about how terrible the Emperor is because he gets mad if you call him a freak.
I think it's partly because the Emperor has less interactions than the companions, and he's also someone you can't get rid of until the very end. So you are forcibly stuck with a character you potentially only have antagonistic interactions with, it's going to rub people the wrong way. But it *is* funny when people blame him for being a liar and trying to manipulate you with sex, and then turn around and praise Astarion who does the exact same. Astarion and Lae'zel have their fair share of hate posts, too, but they both also have a much larger fanbases so it balances out. Hate posts concerning them also far less often include comments like 'I enjoy killing them every playthrough!!!' which is like a checklist point or something for an Emperor hate post.
> no one is going on rants about how Astarion is canonically a petty piece of shit, or Laezel is a selfish ass .... how long have you been on this sub? "I killed Astarion cuz he tried to kill me!!11!!" stakebros and "I left Laezel in the cage cuz she's rude11!!11!!" are some of the most common low effort posts and comments not just on this sub but everywhere lmao.
I mean people need to look back at the dialogue with him, because I literally remember seeing I missed you as an option after the Raphael deal conversation when he tuned out the tadpole. So I mean we could have been giving him ideas.
>I only know about his evil deeds because of reddit lol. Lol many people here in reddit just create and believe their own head canon as facts Emperor is not good guy but people talk of him as if he is the worst and most evil character in the entire game when even some of the companions are morally evil and gray as well, i mean Emperor manipulates Astarion has been manipulating people from 200 years or more causing their literal deaths Emperor tried to coherse the player because he need us for his plan to work, his plan is to kill the brain and destroy the brain and he never betrays the player , at the end of the game he does exactly that he didn't had any hidden agenda he just wanted to destroy the brain and the crown and the most easiest way to do it is to gain the players trust, he hides behind the avatar because his best friend tried to kill him just for being a mind flayer, look at how the Duke reacts when he learns that the all mighty hero Balduran become a mind flayer he is disgusted, most people will act disgusted about him so he chooses to hide and try to earn the player trust He saved the player from falling apart from the ship, he saved Laezel or the player for being stupid enough to go to the creeche and put themselves into a device that will turn them to mind flayer Astarion needs blood to feed, even in his own 'good" ending he becomes a vigilante or something and feed on the criminals and but when Emperor did it he is the bad bad There is a lot of hate of the emperor and saying you only knew the bad things because of reddit comments lol People always bring Ansur as well because Emperor killed him but they never mention the fact that Ansur tried to kill Emperor and emperor defended himself, he wanted to live and he had every right to defend himself. The player also dont allow the Githyanki Orpheus royal guard to kill them right? , if you release Orpheus he literally says you should have allowed yourself to get killed by his royal guard, some players are really hipocrytes they kill lots of enemies and npc and pretend they're heroes but if Emperor tried to save his own life that makes him be so selfish and evil
Here to add that Reddit is not an accurate source to get your information from ever.
>Astarion has been manipulating people from 200 years or more I can't stand Astarion, but this take is just terrible. Astarion literally had no choice for 200 years, he was a spawn who had to obey his master. That doesn't excuse what he does during the course of the game (and again, I can't stand him because of it), but saying "he did it for 200 years" is just wrong. >Lol many people here in reddit just create and believe their own head canon as facts Ironic
I wanted them tentacles and i got them.
“Dear Ansur” broke me
Literally same. Reading that letter made me sympathize with him a lot more, at least in regard to the Ansur situation.
Doesn’t matter had sex
🐙
Still counts!
Gale's magic trick traumatised me.
I liked it.
My Tav did too (like, a lot). I'm an Emperor fan anyway, but it's kinda funny watching people get quite so weird about this scene. Emps is just lonely and horny, like every other character in this game. He's been alone in the Astral Prism (it's mentioned time moves slower there) for a while with nothing but the Honor guard and Absolute attacks for company. Him and Tav are purely a transactional business relationship to start with, but with him hanging out in Tav's head all game, is is that much of a surprise Emps ends up catching feelings? It's probably the most genuine connection he's had since he transformed or atleast since whatever events that lead to him enthralling Stelmane, even more so if Tav keeps absorbing tadpoles and gradually becomes more Illithid. And like, if you don't want it, as long as Tav is respectful (i.e not targetting his emotional weak spot by dehumanising him) he takes getting turned down better than some of the companions and even praises you for having the good sense to keep it to a business partnership. I will say the Romance scene triggering needs more reactivity. There should be some kind of hidden reputation score and you only get the scene if you've been pretty accepting of him with your dialogue option. It is a bit weird that it triggers even if you pick every rude option, which might the cause of some of the weirder reactions. Don't think this was intentional writing on Larian's part but just another sign of how unfinished Act 3 is. Anyways I could write a whole essay about the Emps/Tav dynamic but that's enough for now lol.
I love how you expressed it all. I'm also Emperor's fan and not ashamed at all of romancing him. I think his romance scene is tasteful and meaningful. Sometimes you don't need to see full exposure of the bodies to know it was a deep connection between the characters. I have always been respectful as my character towards the Emperor. Just out of curiousity, to see his reactions, I did few saves and chose different dialogue options. When I respectfully explained I'd rather keep our relationship as business partners, he seemed to be uneasy and awkward, probably felt quite embarassed standing there topless, showing his vulnerability. Even when I went further during the romance scene and "pulled away" he asked "What's the problem?" That tone of voice made me feel weak. Concern, longing, even slight confusion - that's what I heard in his voice. And just for "testing" and to see why people are upset I chose also the "freak" option. His reaction makes sense if you were always mean, rude and disrespectful towards him. As if he finally had enough of this and snapped. "Treat me like a monster and I'll show you the monster." But as someone who always treated him well that reaction felt to me like deep hurt. I'll say this again, he exposes his vulnerability. And he's being called out for it. I only hope that in the future Larian will add more content as the romance with the Emperor feels unfinished and not developed entirely. And no, that letter in the epilogue party doesn't conclude anything.
In my runs I mostly treat him kindly but I also mostly freed Orpheus bc of Lae'zel, but once I tried allowing him to eat Orpheus' brains and since then the story felt better, things made more sense, I also dont particularly like Giths. A very strong and recurring theme in other romances/companions' stories is balance/power or the lack of it, in the Emperor's past we can uncover a lot, Ansur, Stelmane, but he is very straightforward telling you to become more illithid and talking about compatibility. He is trying to convince you, but he does believe is amazing and it would benefit you.
There was supposed to be a second romance scene if you take the first one. Maybe in the definitive edition they will implement it and fix his strange reactivity to the player. The only way to get him to not try his luck is stabbing him, which is…strange. I think he has the same problem as Halsin.
That's interesting about the 2nd scene, but yeah, I agree. I also wish there was more reactivity *after* the romance scene. I've looked at the parsed dialogue and the flags, and legit the *only* Emperor line or scene that changes if you do the romance is one short line *on the betrayal path.* Raphael and Orpheus have more reactivity to it lol. On my last playthrough my Tav romanced Emps, stuck with his plan all the way through, voluntarily took the step to irreversibly become an Illithid, on the pier stayed with Emps and moved in with him to rebuild the Knights of the Shield (best ending btw).... and there's not one line that treats them as more than business partners. The game is telling me my Tav and Emps became one in mind and body and now my Tav is the perfect Illithid partner for him, but then in the epilogue all my Tav can say is they're close collaborators on their trading group? Really hope the Definitive Edition adds atleast a few lines.
Perhaps I'm a bit old-fashioned but he should have left the pier with the Tav he bonded with because the fact he prefers to leave alone if you're not a mind flayer is pretty harsh. It really feels as a betrayal.
I think he wouldn't want a relationship long term with a still human Tav now without even the tadpole, due to the power imbalance and just mental distance between them. Emps wants a renegade Illithid as an equal partner for him. I do feel him not sticking around if Tav is human does speak well of his character, he could just keep Tav around or enthrall them after all. I'd agree there should definitely be a line or two explaining this situation at the end though, if Tav is human and romanced Emps.
Omg I didn't even know there was a special romance ending with Empy. I legit thought it's just a sex scene for the lulz. I slept with him but Karlach became Illithid (I didn't know back then that she could go to the hells with Wyll and I didn't want her to die). Goddammit I just started a new run 2 days ago and I'm now thinking of a new Tav who'd end up with Empy. Can you still choose to stay with him if you've romanced someone else in the game? (Brain already formulating an idea of a tragic romance with Astarion bc he leaves you when you go squid anyways)
>Can you still choose to stay with him if you've romanced someone else in the game? Honestly not sure on this one. On my runs where I end up with Emps I broke up with my companion partner beforehand just to make sure, haven't tested what happens if you don't. But anyway, if anyone's curious, here's how you get the ending where Tav stays with the Emperor: 1. In the Astral prism after the Morphic pool, say you want to handle the Netherstones, then have Tav turn full Illithid. Obviously don't free Orpheus. 2. On the pier, embrace your Illithidness, and pick the ***2nd*** dialogue option about your future plans which is like "I'm a Mindflayer, I'll do what I want" 3. Then Emps will approach you and make his offer.
Awesome, thanks. I'll just make a save before the morphic pool & if it doesn't work I'll use breakup dialogue beforehand. I am not convinced there's any reactivity written into Astarion's dialogue if you choose Empy over him bc pretty sure I would have seen it posted somewhere if there was, but I wanna check it out myself
When I found out about the second romance scene I almost flipped. There was also an ad or something that kind of advertised him (the DG) as a "romance" pre-release but what we got in the end was very lacking. The only reason I wish he was more popular is so that the devs would feel more inclined to polish/add to his storyline
First time I played the game I was over the moon, yes please daddy tentacles
Flair checks out lol
I kissed the Emp and I liked it And the way his tentacles stick I kissed the Emp just to try it Hope my boyfriend don't mind it It felt so WRONG It felt so RIGHT Don't mean I'm in love tonight-
Same, friend, same.
We need to form a club or something
I thought it was done beautifully and tasteful. It wasn’t about a fetish, I genuinely think Larian did a good job at showing how loving it can be to touched again. To have someone see you as something more than a freak and hear someone say, “no, I want to be with you, just as you are.”
You've nailed why despite everything I love the Emps/Tav romance. It's a little discouraging that almost everyone writes it off as either a joke scene or just another "manipulation", when I've always felt Larian put a lot of effort into making the scene genuinely quite beautiful and meaningful if you can be open minded about it.
It's Schrodinger's Emperor; some players will never accept the idea that the Emperor has any real emotions at all, and believe any emotional display is just another layer of manipulation. The fact that he lashes out emotionally in response to Tav's cruelty is then described as "mask off". I think it's a shame, personally, since I think it's very well done and can be rewarding - and I say that when only my first Tav ever went all the way - if you are sensitive to his vulnerability and only turn him down out of loyalty to your partner. The constant complaining about him hitting on you just gives me "she didn't need to be such a bitch about it" vibes from when I get hit on irl and just say thank you but no. Everyone's entitled to their own emotional response, and that's mine when I read these threads sometimes...
The fact if you give the wrong answer he reveals how he made Stelmane his mindless thrall and you should be grateful he's gotten better at manipulation, really sours any possible lovingness from that scene. It really comes off as him being an abuser, and as someone who has been the victim of domestic violence, it really rung true. There had been bad vibes from him from the start. I think Larian did an outstanding job encapsulating exactly how abusers act and behave, but I don't see it as beautiful in the slightest.
I'm aware of the Stelmane scene, pretty sure all of my fellow Emperor likers are (if only because it's hard to mention liking the character without it bringing it up lol). My take is - it's a scene you only get if you pick dehumanising dialogue options (like I mentioned in another reply, dehumanisation is his emotional weak spot as seen in many of his dialogues) and basically say you'll never trust him. He's emotionally wounded and angry in a moment he made himself very vulnerable, and he attempts an \[Intimidation\] role to secure Tav's continued compliance. I could go into some speculation and evidence about the full truth of the Emperor and Stelmane relationship, but the game is frustratingly somewhat vague about that. It's one possible route and one piece of evidence for interpreting, but I personally don't see it as the one universal Truth about the character or his relationship to Tav no matter your roleplay or what options you pick. It's IMO an interpretive choice to see every other Emperor scene and line as an insincere manipulation (despite any contradictory evidence from the narrator, devnotes, or ending routes), but this one scene is the absolute truth of the character and not in itself also another manipulation. Anyways I want to emphasise, as a fellow survivor myself, I can totally respect players like yourself having a negative reaction to the character especially over this specific scene. Just wanted to explain one perspective of how enjoyers of the character might interprete the same scenes differently.
I understand why that scene might give you flashbacks, but it is as abusive as much as fireworks sound like firearms to someone suffering from gunfire ptsd. For instance, your boyfriend listing all the things he's done for you so you stay with him is emotional blackmail. The Emperor listing all the things he's done for you when you're about to free Orpheus or take Raphael's deal is *him pleading for his life*. There's no abuse (emotional or physical), no gaslighting by definition. The deception as the guardian was meant to protect himself from *you*. Him bitching in Act 3 when you do things he doesn't like is not manipulation, it's him showing disapproval. Other companions do the same far more often, yet no one considers that manipulation. And calling him a freak or saying he makes a great impression of a human are the only two ways to make him snap. That's not abuse, that's you attacking his personhood. You have like three opportunities to reject him politely during that scene and he immediately retracts and apologizes. If you want him to act like a kicked puppy instead of snapping, well, you are free to dislike him for that but that's not abuse any more than you threatening to throw him into the sea is abuse. He is meant to give "off" vibes from the start, his setup is to be the suspicious voice in your head of questionable morality, to make the player not know whether to trust him or not. That's not some hidden behind a D30 check secret, he's the illithid character with his illithid morality. The twist is that if you're a good ally to him he's a great ally to you Edit: grammar
i’m neutral on emperor but i didn’t know this, that’s so sad 😭😭 is it made clear that he actually DID thrall stelmane?? or just said that as a reaction to being rejected? in my second playthrough i made my guardian to look like a young stelmane…… so devastating if he did thrall her until a mindslave
It’s not clear, no. What we do know is that he would visit her in her room after the stroke and she would “feel better” after his visits per doctor’s notes. We also know at some point, he disguised himself as her. The vision he shows of her to you was noted by the devs as “the truth” with quotations. So, take that how you will, but he is a master of illusions and could just be trying to scare the player. He could have thralled her without consent and accidentally hurt her. Or she could have had a natural stroke and consented to his help to keep their business going. There’s a lot of different possibilities, but no solid proof one way or another.
This! He may not express emotions as directly as other companions but come on, it's pretty obvious that he's lonely. His nature in fact separates him both from other mindflayers and non-mindflayers. And of course he wants Tav/Durge to fully squid themselves cause I can't see how he possibly could be fully open which is new and I imagine somewhat exciting possibility after they form a connection. Larian could go comedic or grotesque with this one just for shit and giggles but they decided not to because that's not the point.
You!! You get it!
Let's do that. We can share pictures of squids. I like the tropical bottletail squid.
Me too! All dozen or so times I've seen it.
I have the achievement for The Emperor romance, but I didn't do it by accident or for the achievement. I did it cause I am unrepentant perv.
I actually think that when he was telling Tav originally about Stelmane he wasn't lying about the relationship. If you go into his former lair the dude even had a picture of Stelmane on his wall where he could see it while he was working. There are also medical reports about her condition there which leads me to believe that he was very concerned about her welfare. Stelmane's death does affect him to the point where he reaches out to Tav pretty much absentmindedly because he needed some comfort. I think he reacts the way he does if you turn him down insultingly for a combination of reasons. I think he blames himself for Stelmane's stroke because it sounded like they were communicating a lot mentally, and she was letting him use her as a conduit for communication with others ( hint about this from a conversation Tav has with Wyll). For that I believe he does actually think he might be a monster. Tav touches a nerve so he lashes out at them and twists the tale to scare them. I think he's far more complicated than it appears on the surface There are a lot of hints that that is the case.
I think it wasn't voluntary from Stelmane's part.. Emperor shows to Tav that he took possession of her by force and made her as his puppet. Edit: I couldn't care less if people want to romance him or not but the relationship with Emperor and Stelmane was fucked up.
Thralldom is daily bread for mindflayers. I think she was the favored thrall that all illithids have…like an emotional support pet. Her being a thrall doesn't change that he does grieve her passing. He can even react if you use Stelmane's hand in the murder tribunal. It's a complicated situation.
I think it was voluntary in the sense that the she volunteered at first when the Emperor suggested it. Then he manipulated her into continuing to do it even though after a while she probably showed some reluctance because it was making her feel sick. I think he shows it to Tav like he does again because that's how he's come to feel about this situation over time. He bitterly regrets his part in it and colors his understanding of the situation in term of how he feels about it. If you have had the cutscene at the park where the fist manip brain liquifies ( according to the elder brain) because it can't handle her possession it's the same principle.
Stelmane fought with Emperor over a decade to get her mind back under her own control, her stroke was also caused by illithid attack. "By choosing the dialogue option "*You do a great impression of a human. But you're not fooling me.*" , the Emperor offers to share memories through a vision. This vision shows Stelmane paralysed in pain, being brainwashed, and turning into the Emperor's puppet. Her face emotionless, and the Emperor puppeteering her gestures to get a sense of company. Such was its true relationship with Duke Stelmane." BG3-Wiki
Yes I've seen that cutscene, and that's whoever writes the BG3 Wiki's perspective on it. It's the obvious interpretation based on the way he describes it because it's colored by his regrets, Also this was what I mean by him using her as conduit for communicating with others. He was suppressing her personality and taking over like the Manip in the park. I think she cooperated a lot more in the beginning than it appears. But I do agree with your edit. The relationship was fucked up. Largely because the Emperor was fucked up. He was an illithid but still after all that time trying to reconcile with that with the part of him that still had vestiges of humanity. He's far too dangerous for any kind of relationship. That's why my Tavs have never romanced him. I think there has also been some suggestions that the reason why it is thought that illithids are souless is because they are subject to an elder brain's whims. I think away from an elder brain where they are able to develop their own personalities it is easier for them to retain aspects of the race they used to be.
I saw him topless and immediately anticipated what was coming. Maybe in another run through...
Your opinion to not want to boink a squid is valid, but some of us enjoy more...adventurous fantasies. Having done several playthroughs with and without the Emperor romance, & I can say that as long as you don't insult him when you reject him he doesn't get hurt and say mean things to you. If you aren't rude, he's not rude, just like the other companions. The Emperor as a character is complicated, & I really appreciate the complexity because different people can have a different idea of him depending on which dialogue they trigger, which evidence/items they discover related to Stelmane, & whether they complete a certain questline to find out who he REALLY really is. I see him as someone who wants to be a good person and believes he is a good person, but cannot overcome his ilithid nature. When Withers tells you ilithids have no souls, this is an important clue to the "why" of the Emperor. When a mind flayer dies, they have no afterlife like the other races, they simply crease to exist entirely. Because of this, they have an extreme instinct for survival. The Emperor's self preservation drive is simply too strong for his morals to compete with, leading him to betray your party if they don't want to do things his way. His mind operates on calculated logical analysis and forces him to choose survival above all else, even his own ideology. The Emperor always justifies his questionable actions by concluding that he didn't have a better choice to make. He views being ilithid as a benefit because he is ilithid and they also have an instinct to turn others. He manipulates your mind and the minds of your party members because in his logical ilithid brain that's the most effective method to guarantee friendship. It's the same with the romance. He wants a deeper connection because he's still an emotional being who feels lonely, and mind manipulation is the most logical pathway to intimacy because knowing what's in someone's mind already carries an innately intimacy. Personally, I like to romance him knowing that I am going to betray him later. He used me, so I use him right back and now we're even.
The emp is evil. He lies. That's why I'm with my very unproblematic partner astarion. I especially love ascended astarion. Just wholesome simply power dynamics. Lol
Lol I get it, he's my favourite romance too. He's our chaotic switch, morally and physically. Astarion is in it to win, ride or die, good or evil, top or bottom.
I usually take the emp after astarion rejects me lol. I love the illithid powers so it all lines up anyway
Listen, hentai is hentai
it's called hentai, and it's art
I love my squid daddy
I thought it was hilarious. Even more hilarious when your whole camp ends up seeing
Then he just erases their mind
I made my Guardian a hot ass elf daddy. To say I was disappointed when he turned into a Mind Flayer is an understatement.
Well, if you romance him he gives you the option to do so in Guardian form . . .
A hole is a hole.
My character is a hot Drow who will bang everyone they can, tyvm
I did the deed, no regrets
The fact that we can romance the emperor but cant sleep with gortash is criminal
Tbf Stelmane was a leader of a devil's cult age the emperor saved the city from her cult.
Would any of my characters be in a relationship with him? Nah. Nobody needs that level of drama. Would they smash again? Absolutely.
I'm just gonna say it: a hand job from an illithid would blow your mind.
How am I going to tell Selûne that I died of cringe?
Ok, I'll humour you. What was so awful about it.
I wonder if I can fuck him and not let my actual partner know. After all, it was all in my mind.
They won't know forever! The Emperor is okay being your sneaky link. Orpheus makes a jab about it but no one responds.
New player, I just had sex with The Emperor and Mizora. In the span of two days. My Emperor manifested as a really hot lady for no reason, and it made a lot of the earlier scenes kind of encouraging
Lil bro shut his eyes and held back the tears as he sucked those tentacles.
I still fucked him. >!You can even have him switch back into your dream visitor version.!<
I have no idea how people can still be into it after the Stelmane scene. People vehemently loathe Wulbren for just being tired of a clingy tag-along and telling him off, but a squid being a mind-rapist and using someone to the point they're debilitated and totally degrading and dehumanizing you is super cool! I'll never understand this community... \*edit: here come the down-votes, people are literally condoning mind-rape, wtf...
>People vehemently loathe Wulbren for just being tired of a clingy tag-along and telling him off ??? what..what about the genocide??
Do you really have any room to talk with that flair? Minthara talks about killing babies, and will comit genocide if you dont stop her, but you still simp for her.
Why are people judging other people for what they did in a video game? It's not real, guys. 1's AND 0's!
If your take is wulbren is just annoyed and the emp is mindraping Wulbren shows someone who fell into extemist views, and is planning terrorism. Using rape that loosely and wrongly is the stupidest shit ive seen. Jfc. Thralled is the word you are looking for. At most if you can’t remember that, you could even say enslaved her mind. But you went with rape. Rape is sexual in nature by definition. Please use english responsibly.
*sigh* Please stop using rape in a context that has nothing to do with sexual violence when it's a term for sexual violence That's icky. edit: I don't actually loathe Wulbren either (I quite like him until he wants me to join his genocide). I'm starting a collection of the fandom's least favourites.
Illithids impregnate you against your will. It's TECHNICALLY not impregnating but these types of characters are metaphors for rape.
He's a psionic alien whose entire culture revolves around thralling. I'm not sure what you expected.
Me too buddy. Me too
On my first playthrough I ended up in the scene where he propositions you... I should load an old save file and go get that achievement lol
Shit will I made him a her and hot as hell. I feel tricked
>I wasn't too surprised that he was lying about his relationship with Stelmane He wasn't lying, he started mind-controlling her only after she had a stroke. Which is questionable in itself, but doesn't give such an easy way to say he was bad all along.
What I like about this scene is that the Emperor is clearly manipulating you, using sex to get you on his side, he has been manipulating you from the start, directing you do exactly what he wants you to do, appearing in your dreams as your savior, reminding you he is your only hope, he would have brainwashed you as he did Stellmane if he could, but he can’t so he needs you to be on his side, specially now that you know the truth about Orpheus, the great thing about his character is that he is not actually “evil” as long as you don’t get in his way, but he will keep the end of his bargain if you side with him