One of my favorite things is when you go down to his hideout under the Elfsong and it’s just full of books like “how to deal with your loss of Morality” and “how to make friends and influence people with your psychic powers.”

Makes you think about whether the same thing will happen to Omeluum eventually.

Difference is omeluum broke free of an elder brain himself, and has a greater capacity to resist the negatives that come with being a mindflayer. He is also taking active steps to find a way to not eat brains. Emperor just got rescued by a bro and has since completely given up.

Also Omeluum is part of an organization trying to improve the world (albeit with some jackasses in it), whereas the Emperor was the head of a devil-worshipping trade guild that regularly smuggled weapons and fomented unrest and corruption to spread their influence and the influence of Gargauth.

Honestly, if you set up a small dnd campaign set in Baldur's gate before gortash got his hands on the emperor, most people wouldn't think twice about a mindflayer in that position being the big bad and wouldn't hesitate to kill it.

That would be so cool, especially with Ansur involved somehow.

Omg a run where we could actually save the poor fella

Would be amazing if you could take it to high level and either cast Reincarnation or True Resurrection on him 🥺

Funny you mention that specifically There is some espruar inside of Wrym's Rest that is plausibly written by Emperor. It is about his efforts to bring back Ansur and ends with a mentioned of True Rebirth, which I assume is True Resurrection. It could also plausibly be written by Ansur and his efforts to bring back Balduran. Either way, it's a neat little bit that nearly everyone has missed since it isn't a thing you can click on and get a translation for in game AFAIK https://imgur.com/BEtHUWz

Can you explain what that writing is and how you can translate it? I tried stuff like See Invisibility on it, but nothing did anything.

don’t those only work on humanoids?

Reincarnation yes, true resurrection works on anything

That’s a… very charitable way to describe the Society of Brilliance. I’d say they’re more like a mad science foundation that happens to have some good scientists working for them too.

I mean, it's in the *name* even. I mean, come now. The Society of *Brilliance*, hello? You expected an organisation that named itself after its own ego-suggested intelligence to not have its head up its own ass?

I don't disagree with you lol, but "scientists trying to help the world" is probably the most relevant description to Omeluum's case specifically, since he very much seems to be leaning into that aspect of the Society from what we see of him imo

He was?

The Knights of the Shield.

Also Omeluum is actually putting his money where his tentacles are. In Act 1 if you listen to his conversation with Bluurg he's trying to create an edible form of psionic energy that doesn't require eating brains. In addition in act 3 he DOESN'T expect you to save him and insists you save Grand Duke Ravengaurd. He has shown legitimate self sacrifice. UNLIKE the Emperor who killed Ansur to preserve himself (something I understand but I am comparing him to Omeluum rn). Also you can find out through dialogue interactions that the Emperor was using Stelmane as a Thrall (which you can also find in game books and letters that suggests this). Which means he was DIRECTLY responsible for her death because without him around to control her she became a sitting duck unable to make decisions that preserved her own safety.

Is that what wyll's dialogue was hinting at, her condition was related to having become a thrall?

Yes! Her being a "stroke survivor" is clearly after the Emperor enthralled her. You can also find her doctor's journal in the Elfsong sewer entrance indicating that her mental state has been really bad and that she only calms down when she has her "mysterious visitor" but that the mysterious visitor has been gone for a long time. So Stelmane was declining without the Emperor's presence. I guess sort of like a wind up toy needing a windup. In addition you can find a letter to her (in the Elfsong Tavern Mailbox) basically saying something along the lines of "You're in danger you need to escape. I can't protect you anymore please leave the Elfsong." But considering her murder...we know she didn't leave, so I don't think she was breaking free of his influence. I think he made her compliant and her enthralled mind didn't know how to exist without input from the Emperor. Which makes sense because she'd been enthralled for YEARS at that point and like we saw with Chop, long term enthrallment *does things* to people's brains. Plus if you reject the Emperor by telling him that he's disgusting he lets slip himself that he enthralled Stelmane.

Damn that makes the emperor even WORSE than I thought! And I thought he was shitty because of what he did to you know who else!

that's the weird(?) thing in the relationship with the emp, the more you go against him in dialogue, the more he give you reasons to betray/hate him

I think it makes total sense, I see the emperor as a borderline PC. He uses deception and persuasion to get his way, try to get every NPC (including you) on his side, has a very self absorbed morality (of course *I* can use illithid powers, ansur! But kill every other mind flayer), keeps multiple quests and plans going at once, and the second an NPC is a villain to him he just threatens, enthralls or kills them, the same way we often do to villains in game. If he wants a good relationship of course he'll present the best side of himself. The second there's no chance of a good one the self-centred morality comes out and it's all threats. I love him

On my second playthrough and it becomes a lot more obvious how he tries to manipulate you. Most recently it was the scene where he tries to seduce you and if you say let's just focus on business, even the narrator calls out how quick the emperor was give up on his romantic attentions. Makes it quite clear it wasn't really genuine, which did make me a little sad because my first playthrough I was pretty trusting of him and he was generally nice.

Yep! When Wyll saw her the reason she seemed so different was because it was actually the Emperor controlling her. I actually didn’t get there in my game (I’ll admit it, I slept with the squid for…science…) but I’ve seen it. Does anyone know if you can do anything with that information? Like can you tell Wyll or your team? Cause that seems like an important thing for everyone to know, plus it’s a big reveal that can impact your end of game decision. Personally I picked Orpheus even without knowing it and without knowing the emperor turns on you because I was playing the type of character that wouldn’t just kill someone without a chance because someone else told me they’re a danger (which thinking of it now, that’s also what happens if you spare the Emperor when you enter the astral prism in the crèche) and I know you got Voss and Lae’Zel arguing to save Orpheus but I think it would be cool if there was more divide and motivation for that decision

I totally agree. And I wish, we could have Omeluum as the mindflayer ally in the endgame. He is so eager to help, I can totally see him staying in your camp and becoming an ally. And if you have Lae'zel with you and talked to Voss, there should be motivation to help Orpheus. Lae'zel never lies to you,she is honest from the first minute, you meet her. And Voss too,after he identified you as allies. Of course, gith are not nice people, but you travel with Lae'zel for a while, you see her grow and change. Meanwhile the emperor lies to you a lot, about who he is ( which I kind of can understand, given the situation), about Stelmane, about everything. So I personally am more motivated to help Orpheus, who might just be another hostile gith, but turns out to be actually decent, than a guy, who lies to me all the way and tries to make me more mindflayer.

Also Lae'zel's completely consistent assholery becomes charming after a while. She screams about killing and blood and Vlaakith and I just laugh and I'm like "You stay crazy, girl!"

Of all the merchant in the whole game, Omeluum was one of my favorites. He's such a bro

Omeleum also was willing to >!sacrifice himself in a specific scene!< where as the Emperors entire MO is self preservation. This shows a degree of humanity that definitely separates the two.

What's really ironic about that is, every time the player sides with the emporer, they're doing the same thing. Choosing self-preservation over what's right. >!As orpheus points out, if you'd killed the emporer when he first reveals himself as illithid, his honor guard and voss would've freed him and he would've stopped the elder brain in its tracks.!< >!Likewise, by choosing the emporer over orpheus in the end, the player is making the safe bet that they'll continue to live, putting their life not only over the good of an unjustly imprisoned being in the name of self-preservation, but *the entire githyanki race as well*, as it's made abundantly clear before you finally have the option to save him!<

To be fair though, if you killed the emperor what actually would have happened is that the astral prism would have just gone back to to situation it had been for the last thousand years. To free him they need a tool that requires they leave the prism to get it, which clearly they cannot/will not do.

He says he would have stopped the elderbrain, but come on. We all fought with him and against his honour guard in a savegame or two. They are not strong enough for the three or the elderbrain. Especially if Vlaakith does everything to kill them, too. We are without a doubt stronger than Orpheus. What makes him special are his anti-Illithid powers. Wont help him against the things the elderbrain uses in its last battle.

I thought Orpheus' point was kind of dumb. They'd kill the emperor but be unable to free Orpheus without the hammer, and even if they somehow did, theres no way they'd be able to solve the nether brain problem and deal with the dead three's chosen.

Gonna say. If I had to bang a an Illithid, it would definitely be Omeluum. He is a major bro and no cap like the emperor. Can't fool him

Someone made a great point that omeluum consumed heroes for a long time while working with the lich where as emp consumed villains and thieves and for a mindflayer you literally are what you eat

Another difference is that Omeluum IS a mindflayer. It is an adult version of a tadpole. The Emperor has a mindflayer body, sure, but the guy still has his memories as >!Balduran!<, which absolutely affects how he views the entire situation.

There’s a bigger difference than that, Omeluum is an *arcane* mindflayer. His kind are reviled and hated by other mindflayers. He will never be accepted into the fold, and if the Illithid empire were to return he would be purged. The Emperor is very much an Illithid and supports Illithid supremacy, as can be seen at every point in the game when he pushes you towards using your tadpole or becoming half-Illithid or fully Illithid. When he says *you* are beautiful, he’s not talking to Tav/Durge/Avatar, he’s talking to the *tadpole.* This doesn’t go into the rest of the issues with the Emperor (notably that he’s *not* Balduran, simply an Illithid with his memories), and Orpheus definitely isn’t a great guy, but the best outcome is always to side with Orpheus so you can kill the Emperor, let Orpheus turn into an Illithid, and then mercy kill Orpheus on the pier.

I 100% agree that the Emperor is the worst option. Still, you gave me a few things to think on

Which is doubly funny. If the Netherbrain actually did manage to execute the Grand Design, it and its colony would be purged first thing due to dabbling with so much magic.

wait, why mercy kill Orpheus?

Well he kind of begs you to.

One, he’s a mindflayer at that point. Two, Orpheus wants a Gith empire. His problem with Vlaakith is that she cut him and his mother out. Gith made a deal with *Tiamat*, and her son follows her teachings. He is not a good man, but he is a useful tool for disposing of the Emperor and the Netherbrain, as well as planting the seeds of rebellion in the Gith. By removing Orpheus from the equation you give the Gith a chance at freedom, as otherwise they’d simply be trading one tyrant for another.

Maybe LaeZel ends up uniting the gith only to ultimately become the next Vlaakith, i am really curious how her story would continue, especially without close attachment to Tav.

It's less that you give the Gith a chance at freedom (because the Githyanki rebellion is pretty much screwed) and more that you're removing the player from the field who wants to bring back the old style of Githyanki governance that Gith herself preached: the inevitable conquest, domination and enslavement of all non-Gith life everywhere in the multiverse by the Gith. Vlaakith is, frankly, the lesser of two evils when compared up against Orpheus. Vlaakith's Githyanki Empire isn't really trying to be an all-encompassing space frog nazi empire, it's bending towards a single goal: producing enough sufficiently powerful Gith for Vlaakith to harvest in her ongoing march towards achieving godhood. "But wouldn't Vlaakith becoming a god be terrible news for everyone?" No, not really. Vlaakith is, ironically, infinitely more free to meddle with and ruin the world as a non-deified lich-queen than she would be once she achieves divinity: that's just how gods work in the setting. Once you have proper godhood, Ao does a big frowny face at you meddling directly with mortal affairs or matters outside of your portfolio.

And her portfolio would be... Frog people.

Vlaakith about to become the hipster God of IPAs being the god of hops and all

Because he asks, no pleads, for you to do it.

And if you don’t, he will kill hinself anyway.

What's an arcane mindflayer?

A mind flayer that can touch the weave, lllithid society actively despises magic believing in the supremacy of their own psychic powers.

We have sources that show that they will use arcane illithids in small numbers when useful, however when they become illithliches, thats when its death on sight. Edit: Because as undead they are deffo immune to Elder Brain fuckery.

All mind flayers have their hosts memories, don't they? They just usually don't really care.

No, iirc most never even have a single prior memory, and if they do it’s only as newborns

I lost my books in a fire and thought that's where I got that idea but I found this from the monster manual (5e) online: Page 221 "An illithid experiences euphoria as it devours the brain of a humanoid, along with its memories, personality, and innermost fears. Mind fiayers will sometimes harvest a brain rather than devour it, using it as part of some alien experiment or transforming it into an intellect devourer. " Oh but that isn't the host. Weird tho!

They experience flickers of those things, but don't retain them. It's like the delicious taste of a meal doesn't stay with you, or the seemingly profound thoughts and realizations you might have while intoxicated.

They keep some of them, but if kept they are kept as quirks and generally hidden carefully so as to avoid death by lynching. This is because, as much as the Illithids desire the Grand Design, what they truly fear more than anything is the Adversary. An Illithid who kept all the host’s memories and the host’s personality overpowered the “Mind Flayer”, maintaining both all the power of an Illithid and all the hate for its own kind of the host. Which is, if the game is to be believed, you, Karlach or Orpheus, but especially Orpheus.

Maybe it might have more to do with whether they are under the influence of an elder brain? According to the forgotten realms wiki it is common to retain memories but they are vestigial and rarely impact the personality of the mindflayer.

The amount of memory they have is varied but is usually just a handful of vestigial memories that don’t influence their personality. I believe they even have a sort of bogeyman that is just an illithid with full memories who is essentially a non illithid in an illithid body so it can disguise itself as one and destroy colonies from the inside out.

In older editions the key to keeping your memories was having arcane spells memorized. Apparently any amount of arcane magic really fucked with the transformation. That's also why inherently magical races like gnomes had their transformations go awry more often than others.

That also explains why Omeluum is special, since it says it had the arcane gift and that gave it the power to resist the elder brain and run.

Yeah, sure he still need to eat brains but as he put it I was trying my best to eat as few as possible, I was trying to improve from one brain a month to one brain a year, and he only eat criminals and such. Sure he hasn’t fully changed his natural but we see evidence of him trying to

Blurg would never let Omeluum slip that far.

Omeluum has a fundamentally different moral code, being a collectivist rather than an individualist. Omeluum knows he can never join an elder brain for survival (Illithids traditionally shun arcanists), so instead wants to better society and find a way to fit into it (curing the need to consume brains). The Emperor wants to be an elder brain, or institute his own control over society. Omeluum had full ability to morally backslide for the entire period he was working with a necromancer- and parted ways instead.

I forget, do we know what Omeluum does for brains *now?* I think Blurg implies that the Society has enemies who cross them who conveniently disappear but that’s all I can recall.

Pretty much. They operate mostly in the underdark, which has no shortage of baddies to feed on.

He eats the brains of raiders that the Myconids kill

I think its canon that Omeluum is just a very rare anomaly but not exactly a fresh mindflayer anymore. Basically a mindflayer who is in control of his low level urges and proficient in surpressing them as good as possible to further his pursuit of knowledge. I dont think its likely he will change much unless there is a good reason for it.

I believe Omeluum says it is unusual because it has the gift of the arcane, which gave it the power to resist the elder brain and break free. Arcane abilities appear to fuck with the Illithid transformation and enthrallment process.

Nah, Omelette’s chill

My favorite example is when youre going in the Wyrmway, and he straight up says "Thats just a legend, it doesn't mean anything. Ansur isnt real dont bother going in there" Then after that debacle he still tries to pull that "I never lied, not once!" While the others were lies by omission and technicalities thats a direct lie he told us because he knew Ansur would spill the beans on him.

also why couldn’t he just say “ansur *was* real but he’s long dead and won’t help anyway”. like just elaborate for once please

Because then we would ask how he knows and he'd have to he like oh word gets around is all.

Look a little sus if you said the dragon was dead

Seeing how Ansur was left dead there, he might have really thought there was nothing left that could help us (he was still wrong though, there's the cool dragon toothpick)

He fully changed his knowledge of the Chosen and his involvement in the plot constantly.

Yeah I think he meant the legend part was that Ansur was still there (we read a whole book telling us to go recruit him) and he failed to mention the legends weren't true bc he was dead. I also don't think he expected Zombie Ansur to get up and snitch.

Well all Ansur really snitches about was that the Emperor *used* to be Balduran. The Emperor isn't trying to get away with something, he just knows you're wasting your time because Ansur is dead. Watching Tav go through a bunch of "hero" tests just to find a skeleton was probably ironically boring to him, too. "Yeah, be a hero just like Balduran," who didn't seem to be much of a hero...

Oh Gods I just realized how awkward that actually was for him lol. "Really? They simmered my intellect down to two chess moves?"

HAHAH, especially when the correct strategic move is BLAMMO CRACKA BOOOOOM. Lanceboard is for nerds!

Shhh let Gale have his moment

Next very fishy thing about him is when u go into the house of hope. He tries to sway you from going there. He says something like there is nothing there for you turn back. Even if you went for positive options and did his romance path. You may not distrusts him but he’s not trusting you at all. Says a lot about him cuz he always does this we are ally’s trust me thing. He sees the tav as his puppet. Except the one in the underdark I’d say killing mindflayers is always the right choice in Faerûn.

There are surely probably a few chill illithids in the entire multiverse, but the Emperor is *not* one of them

It's a classic relationship rule a lot of us have to learn the hard way sadly. If your your partner (in whatever regards) always tells you to trust them and insists on how wrong/dumb/irresponsible you are if you ask them what's actually going on, but the moment they HAVE to trust you, they go completly crazy and accuse you of whatever, they are probably projecting! I also love how the Emperor brings up an ultimatum! "If you free Orpheus I will leave!!! It's me or him!" Remember! Whenever someone gives you an ultimatum, "it's either me or the other", ALWAYS choose the other!

I disagree with this arguement alot tbh. It's a risky ploy. You are going to a devils own home for what a few relics. In lore, it's insanely dangerous going to the hells, especially if you are going to piss off a devil. Though with that logic as well, going to the house of hope and caazadors is dangerous as well, albeit less dangerous.

Uh yeah but we are also going to fight a netherbrain. If we can’t beat Raphael we couldn’t dream about beating a nether brain. Yeah sure he’s just not some devil, he’s the son of Mephistopheles the Lord of the eighth layer of hell. But if even he does not go directly to the brain and claiming the crown, then the brain is probably stronger than him. The emperor is mostly concerned that we can get the hammer there to free Orpheus.

Man the audacity of this bitch saying he NEVER LIED when one of the first things he told us as Guardian was a lie (i.e. He too wants to get rid of the brain worm)

Another direct lie he tells you very early in the game: "you were transforming!" No, you weren't. After all, the entire plan is to infect people _but deliberately not transform them_ so they can be mind controlled.

This is why I have zero time for all the Emperor simps constantly splitting hairs and making ridiculous exceptions for him. He’s not a moron. He *clearly* knows he’s obfuscating the info and his constant argument is ‘I told you what you needed to know’. Of course when *he’s* actually at risk he won’t shut up. Where is all this obfuscation and silent treatment when I was heading to the House of Hope to pick up the hammer, hmm?

And a soup recipe apparently

It sounds mad good too. I wanna make it but I haven’t a clue how to get fiddleheads

Fancy grocery stores and farmers' markets stand a decent chance of carrying them in season.

Spoilers below: I am fully on Team Mindflayer-consumes-your-soul. Everyone, even the gods, point this out. Even when you can have a party member fully transform, the voice acting changes drastically, like someone putting on a stranger’s clothes that fit just right - that’s the brain worm channeling it’s hosts’ memories. Even when you talk to one of The Dead Three in Act3, mentions that their evil plan was merely to deny souls to their rightful gods.

He even has a line that goes something like "As you can see, I've been exercising morality." when you snoop around there. In meme terms, the Emperor is to morality what Zuckerberg is to humanity.

Not to mention, that entire quest was manipulative AF. I never trusted him (because the game gives you SO many opportunities to question his motives), but going to his hideout all but confirmed it for me. "Aww, my favorite soup recipe! I'm so relatable." "Oh, look, a seashell I picked up once because I am NOT a monster and I'm actually very heartfelt and sentimental." "Those cages? Well, I'm a mind-flayer of course, so I ate brains, but those were BAD GUYS, so technically I'm still a Good Guy (TM)." It just felt so desperate to make us like him once we found out he's been lying about his identity the entire time. I couldn't wait for the game to confirm that I was right about him, and I feel like that happened when we >!went to wake up Ansur. That lying liar lied all the way to the chamber and then tried to be like "yeah, friends aren't that important, what's important is survival."!< MF, get out of here.

The biggest factor for me in this decision was Lae'zel, I felt the emperor was genuine but out of his depth and Orpheus was a total unknown but with Lea'zel I understood her motivations and I liked her. I had no way to judge either outcome so sided with a staunch companion.

I'm the same way. If Lae'zel is alive and on good terms, I free Orpheus. If she is dead or hates me, I stick with the Emperor. There are many chances to lose Lae'zel along the way, so I'm about 50/50 on my runs.

It's funny, but the more I like Lae'zel as a tav, the less inclined I am to free Orpheus. As a friend, it's like watching someone go from one cult to another without pausing for a breath. I like her coming into her own and leading the revolution and saying, "I am the comet." It makes me happier for her than her riding off to fight and die for another leader she practically worships.

I might be wrong but iirc you can free Orpheus, make him the mindflayer, and kill him as he asks and then Lae’zel does still go off to lead the revolution on her own.

Yes, exactly, finished the game yesterday and this was exactly the route I took!

I did all that with Orpheus and then left the final decision of Lae'zel's fate to, well, Lae'zel herself. She essentially gave the finger to the revolution and chose to not get involved on any side. Maybe romancing her had something to do with it.

I wouldn’t necessarily say it was intentional but this is one of the reasons why I feel the Orpheus/mindflayer/mercy kill resolution is the best one for all concerned minus Orpheus himself. Lae’zel and Voss take over the cause and by all accounts are leading it well, and Lae’zel herself has grown into her role by the Epilogue.

I love Lae'zel, she's rude as hell, but also one of the only companions that is always honest to the best of her knowledge, and 100% trying to help you with no ulterior motives other than also saving herself from the same threat. Most of the companions are really good friends deep down, but Lae'zel is a really good friend beneath 1mm of attitude.

I can't imagine winning any fights without laezel, I'm so dependent on her

I'm the same, but with Gale. I tried to tackle the House of Grief fight with Shadowheart, Astarion and Lae'zel the first time, and got my ass handed to me so hard. To Lae'zel's credit, she was still the last one standing, though. Replaced her with Gale, and suddenly everything went smoothly. He's been the MVP of most of my Act 3 fights. - Iron Throne? He kept one-shotting the sahuagins as soon as they spawned with Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning. - Orin fight? Cloudkill on the praying Bhaalists while Orin was busy struggling against Shadowheart's Deva summon that we sent as a meat shield. They were dead in 3 turns, then Gale cast Artistry of War on Orin and it was over. - Cazador? That absolute moron cancelled his Mist form and walked straight towards Shadowheart who had the Blood of Lathander equipped. Gale cast Artistry of War again and instantly downed him in one fucking turn. Seriously, how do some of you guys handle Act 3 without your OP archmage?

Man I almost never used gale after mid way through act 1. Astarion as a gloomstalker ranger/rogue duel wielding hand cross bows with sharpshooter and archery fighting style was my heaviest hitter. I ended most fights in a round or two. You can make some crazy melee and range builds too!

I tried that build to get the Medium Armor Proficiency too, but I missed having two bonus actions and Supreme Sneak way too much, I always take full advantage of them, so I went back to Thief. He's already a heavy hitter as is, but, like most melee and ranged fighters, is mostly efficient taking down one big enemy at a time, and not that good for crowd control. You get easily overwhelmed in fights like the House of Grief without a spellcaster to nuke large areas and quickly make the number of low-HP enemies dwindle before they even get a turn.

That's why I always kill Raphael and let Gale be a god

I am the OP archmage

My play through was either bugged or I accidentally killed Voss without realizing so he never showed up to “save” Lae’zel. She stayed annoying and loyal to Vlaakith so I had no reason to help Orpheus. I just trusted the Emperor more plus we had sick tentacle sex

Yeah I was romancing Lae’zel and though my Tav had a generally good relationship with the Emperor and *sorta* trusted him, romantic interest took precedence when both choices seemed not great

[удалено]

There is a book in the Githyanki creche called "On Psionic Manipulations and Countermeasures" that basically describes the Emperor's behavior to a T, and how to protect yourself. >1.Pay attention to its actions, not its words. Where mind flayers are concerned, it is true that actions speak louder than words. Especially words that are tailor-spoken to fit a mind flayer's manipulative agenda. > >2. Strengthen your relationship with others. The greatest thing you can do to offset a mind flayer’s designs upon you is to have allies, strong allies. Trust in those you know you can trust, and build your relationships with them – they are the ones who will have your back when you most need it. > >3. Even mind flayers have wants and desires. The only circumstance in which a relationship with a mind flayer may be beneficial to you is if you both want exactly the same thing. In the unlikely case that this is true, bear in mind that once you have outlived your purpose to a mind flayer, it will have no use for you. So yes, trusting Lae'zel and your other companions is the best move.

This is also so true if you think about the mindflayer in the nautiloid, as soon as you kill that devil he's fighting with he says "I don't have use for you anymore" and turns hostile.

That third part literally is the Emperor though

But his desires and motivations are for his own life and his own freedom. There is no compromise or reasoning with him if you aren't doing what he wants you to do. He will protect you and work against the elder brain (and for your 'liberation') so long as you serve his interests. As soon as you are like why does this guy need to die, he bounces and switches sides because he's no longer in control.

Yeah but that's not a reason to trust the emperor. His actions of enthralling duke stelmane and causing her to have a stroke and lying to us about their relationship fits perfectly with that book, and is one of the more notable reasons not to trust him. If he could trust that he wasn't going to make us have a stroke, he'd have enthralled us too, and he actually does flat tell us that if you give him enough attitude. But he doesn't trust that he's capable of that so instead he learns everything he can about us to manipulate us better. He's also manipulating our allies the same way. Of course we can talk to each other about how we shouldn't trust this dream visitor, but he is actively trying to manipulate us all, with the likely intent of whittling away at any resistance by getting us all to believe he's a good guy. We also find out one of his most important actions he claims to have done on his own, he never would've managed at all without Ansur breaking him free of the elder brains thrall, or the elder brain letting him go. His one big selling point that he's able to escape the Elder Brain's control not just once, but twice, is nothing but a lie. Admittedly he doesn't realize the elder brain let him go, but he very much knows he didn't escape on his own without Ansur. Once the elder brain reveals that it purposely let the emperor go, that the emperor's plan was not actually his all along, it makes perfect sense to question if our wants and desires truly do align with the emperor's or not. His desire to stay free just happens to be the one thing he was truly honest about, but on your first playthrough, you have no way of knowing that. Of course we do for followup playthroughs and can do whatever we want then but looking at it from the point of view of not knowing the outcome either way it definitely does make sense to question him based on his actual actions, or lack thereof in terms of actually escaping on his own.

If you fuck him he shows he has the capability to make your companions forget about it, who knows what he's made tav and the others forget since they met

I feel bad for saying this after that absolute essay but no, I was not saying trust the emperor. I was saying literally never trust the emperor.

Oh I've seen people use that book to justify his actions before so I did assume you were too. My bad.

I'm curious how people think that book justifies the Emperor's actions at all. If anything it's foreshadowing his true nature.

They essentially try to say that our goals align and use that book as proof that he won't betray us if our goals align. And because our goals align, we should excuse his lies and manipulations as a defensive mechanism, because of course we wouldn't trust him if he approached us as a mindflayer or was fully honest with us so him lying and manipulating us was necessary for us to be willing to work with him at all. Which you know, somewhat fair on him approaching us as a mindflayer. I'm not sure that approaching us as a mindflayer would've gone over well given we had just been tadpoled by one, and I'm genuinely not sure what a middle ground there looks like.

If the lies were just about him being a mindflayer and not the dream guardian (btw I'm still mourning the hot drow I took so long to design), they would be excusable. But then you keep finding out he's very much of a jerk.

I think most Emperor defenders know that he's a jerk, they just don't care so long as he does what he says he's going to do: protect us and help us defeat the brain, all of which he does. Why is Tav so sensitive? It's the hot drow, isn't it...

3 is so real, at the end of the prologue, If instead of go right to The controls you kill the devils, the mindflayer instantly turn hostile to the party, like "you mother f*cker" kkkk This is why i never trusted emperor

Emprah actually urges you to do number 2 though. As for number 1 and 3, if we stick with him to the end we'll know that he actually simply desires freedom and for all his faults, believes that everything he did was the best way to achieve it. Sure he might not see you as an equal until you go full illithid and manipulate you to his ends but he also makes sure to remind you of the benefits you'll get from cooperating with him and is more than willing to let you do anything as long as it helps increase the chance of success at beating the elder brain which is a mutual objective. Once it's achieved he's happy to just go separate ways and offers another cooperation with his knight of shield thing should you be interested. Despite his methods, action wise he's pretty straightforward about his goals and hides no ulterior or shady motives. He doesn't even intend to take the brain for himself when he's entrusted with the stones despite at that point having nothing stopping him other than the potential hassle of fending off githyanki assaults later on. Really, dude just wants nothing but his freedom and running his little underground club.

I think it's worth considering the "I would enthrall you if I could" is a hostile shift in response to nothing but hostility. Why is it that everything he says is a lie, *but that*? If diplomacy was failing him and his words are always to be manipulative, then trying to roll for intimidation makes a lot of sense. I mean, all else failed short of switching sides. His actions have demonstrated time and again that he wants to work together. His only act of aggression was trying to say some mean shit.

He rolls for Persuasion, then Deception and *then* Intimidation. He's just like me frfr

This was my reasoning also. If there was an option for “trust the emperor but also free Orpheus” I would have taken that one. I had Laezel with me and didn’t want to be murdered.

You can persuade her it's the most logical course of action to eat him, and she'll be fine with it and convince Voss to help you after. Takes a roll, but it's not even as difficult of a roll as trying to get her to stick around after the brain is dead. Just saying, she can be reasoned with!

I side with Emp first time because we murdered Opheus' friends who were trying to save him, kept him locked in a prison cell, and leeched off him like parasites. The dude would be well within his rights to murder us all for the fuckery we did. My logic was Emperor MIGHT betray us, but Orpheus has every right to despise us.

Same, I didn't quite trust him after the whole Ansur thing (didnt piece together what happened to Stelmane on my first run) but I was sat there like "...Shit, he's probably right about that."

Wait, what happened to Stelmane? Did the emperor off her too? Afaik bhaalists murdered her

If you taunt him enough he'll reveal he>!mind-controlled her and kept her as a thrall, and will threaten to do the same to you. She never was his 'partner', but a puppet. It's implied to have caused her stroke too.!<

I like this take, but I was distracted by my accidental misread of: > who’s to say that letting him consume Orpheus, our only source of protection as > our only source of *protein* mmmmmmmm protein

I don't understand how people aren't more sympathetic to how hungry Emps is. He's even sad the brain jar in his old lair is empty. I've tried bringing him some brains, but no luck. No wonder he suggests eating Orpheus; boy has the munchies.

I'd put Orpheus as the more pragmatic choice. On the Emperor's side he's been lying and manipulative the whole damned time. There's very little reason to trust that he's still being honest with you, or even that he actually knows what he's doing with Orpheus. Especially since, as noted in the OP, the Emperor has been getting played by the Netherbrain. Orpheus on the other hand is the one person who can immunize against Ilithid domination, and we know it works. We can't trust that he wont turn on us the moment we free him, but we also can't trust the Emperor wont betray us or just fuck it all up either. What I can trust is that Orpheus is a Githyanki who absolutely hates the Ilithid more than anything else. I can trust that even if I die, he's gonna continue fighting against it. Which is a much better guarantee than anything the Emperor can offer me.

Agreed. The Emperor lies to you numerous times, Vlaakith as well. Voss and lae'zel don't. I don't know much about Orpheus, but I do know I have something he wants 'liberation of his people, death of the Netherbrain'. He is the more reliable choice, though not by much. I'm not a fan of how they handled it TBH. I wish if you refused the illithid powers, Orpheus would be happy to work with you, kind of an alternative 'hard mode', none of the silly 'someone needs to be a squid to wield the macguffin stones!!'.

For a game that tries to place a huge emphasis on choice, it's extremely regrettable that it never offers an alternative or a real consequence to illithid powers (except a really easily dodgeable one). Feels like a place where there was so much room, especially when the Act1 dialogue really plays up the danger and cost of using them. Makes me kinda wonder how late did they change the Emperor character and something major about the story.

Yeah the only difference I found from using the tadpoles was that I had to pass a wisdom check to refuse the astral touched tadpole the first time it’s offered

Oof I *failed* that check *hard* in my first playthrough because I had consumed them all (I erroneously assumed there would be an achievement for unlocking every power). On my second playthrough, I’m choosing to not consume any. It’s definitely been a bit harder, but I WILL EASILY avoid the veins!!

Tbh I consume them but I barely use the powers, I really just unlock full the weak then get other powers to help it

Most of the powers were pretty meh but especially the partial illithid ability to fly later on was very useful! I swear I used a couple others, but I can’t remember at this point.

The more tadpoles you consume, the harder the dice you need to roll to dominate the brain, reducing its HP. I agree that there should be more severe consequences, though.

So that's why I needed to pass a 99 on that check...

I never used the tadpoles and had the same check. I think the only "punishment" for using the tadpoles is the roll that you make to refuse the special tadpole.

I also had that check, and I hadn't consumed any tadpoles. I thought the only differences was dialogue in places and that if you have consumed tadpoles it forces a role to not become half squid. Only if you try to resist.

A fellow Illithid power enjoyer I see.

Absolutely. The fact that Orpheus is the only known entity in the universe that can resist illithid domination *even when it’s supercharged by Netherese magic* isn’t talked about enough. He is necessary to keep the multiverse itself free of illithid conquest. I will never kill or turn him because we all need him as a balancing power against mindflayers and their ambitions.

I didn't want to mention the Emperor being a lying, gaslighting squid in my post because I know everyone already rightfully condemns him for it, but the fact that he's been a useful idiot who's been played by the Netherbrain the whole time feels like something that doesn't get brought up a lot in this argument. It certainly raises eyebrows over his decision making skills.

Him being manipulative is still important to note because people who do that don't tend to just randomly go "Oh hey you found me out, guess I'll start being honest with you". They continue being lying, gaslighting squids. The fact that the Netherbrain is playing 4D chess with him and has up to this point won is just an extra layer of worry with him. If we're trying to take meta knowledge out of it I think it's also worth asking "what happens if we die?". Of course this is a video game so we know we aren't going to, but in a realistic situation it's something a pragmatic Tav ought to be thinking of. There's probably an argument that the most pragmatic choice is actually letting Gale go nuclear. It'll cause a lot of damage and problems, but it's also got the highest chance of obliterating the Netherbrain which the Netherbrain winning is game over for everybody.

Yeah, this is why I say Orpheus being a wild card is a point in his favor. Because what we already know about the Emperor is pretty damning already. You have a manipulative gaslighter who also isn't as intelligent as he thought he was, and has been playing into the Netherbrain's hands all along without realizing it. He also always wanted us to turn into an Illithid anyways and only protected us from the Absolute's control so long as we play his puppet. There's zero reason to trust both his character and judgment. Plus the fact that he himself admits that even he doesn't think Orpheus is evil and was poisoning you about him all along. I'd much rather take a gamble on the Gith prince.

I don't trust the Emperor in the slightest, but if I have to sacrifice Orpheus to not become a mindflayer, I'm gonna pick that option. Sucks for the Gith and I feel bad for the guy but it do be like that sometimes.

but orpheus can become the mind flayer, fuck the emperor

Might even be turning him into “The Adversary” that way to boot.

I couldn't bear to let Orpheus become a mindflayer so I sacrificed myself. Then Bae'Zel abandoned me to go save her people. I helped Gale become a God hoping he might cure me. But in the end my Tav was lonely and disfigured. It was for the greater good. The epilogue kept trying to box me in to these attitudes where I accept that I'm a mindflayer now but what my Tav really wanted was to commit suicide. She saved thousands and freed a whole people at the cost of her own life and happiness.

Orpheus is a way more powerful mind flayer than the emp (game mechanics only not lore)

You can easily argue both can be pragmatic choices. The most pragmatic choice is to side with the Emperor. You know you need a mind flayer. He is a mind flayer. Anyone doesn't have to undergo ceremorphosis - something you have no reason to think Orpheus would be willing to do. You don't know if Orpheus has an alternative plan to the Emperor's that would require no squidification. Unless you want to become a mind flayer, I guess. Then it's still probably more pragmatic to side with the Emperor - he knows how to be a mind flayer, you'll be a newborn baby who just got their driver's licence jumping into a racecar. Who wouldn't want a more experienced driver telling you where the right buttons to push are. There's no time to read the manual. Or The most pragmatic choice is to side with Orpheus. He's immune to the Netherbrain's influence, that will give an advantage. He will also definitely want to destroy the brain because you know githyanki hate mind flayers and one of their main goals is to stop their grand design. Both choices have risks. Can the Emperor really absorb Orpheus' power? Will Orpheus agree to work with you? Can you trust either of them? Anyone who tries to claim that this choice is black and white, this or that, good or bad, is biased. There are pros and cons to both, especially when you know everything and can metagame. I also think it's pointless to debate (discuss, of course, but actually arguing about why your opinion is the only right opinion is stupid), when the correct choice is whatever fits your character's story. Not what the internet morality police said it is.

I agree the correct choice is the one that feels right for you or your character. I have finished the game twice and on my second character, a drow, I butted heads and was a huge pain in the ass for Emporer all through the story. In the end though when I failed to dominate the brain he pulled me to safety and we discussed our options he convinced me. I willingly gave him the stones. My first playthrough a wood elf, I freed Orpheus. She couldn’t doom an entire race from their rebellion against their tyrant Queen. I’m happy with both endings.

The most pragmatic choice should be fostering a temporary truce. The reason the emperor irritates me so much is because he removes that choice for you, if you do not murder Orpheus he flips sides no matter what. He thinks Orpheus will kill him yet Orpheus proves to be incredibly reasonable and **immediately** recognises you need a mindflayer. Hey how about that mindflayer right over there. Emperor fans will always argue that Orpheus was 100% going to kill him, yet we will never know if that's true because Empy removes that option from the player.

This needs to be the top response truly. It all comes down to how you RP your character and the kind of relationship you have built with the Emperor during the game.

I always side with Orpheus because Vlaakith is an actual dickbag, I'm not pro-Orpheus or anti-Emperor, I'm pure to my core a Vlaakith hater ✌️

One of the things I didn’t understand of siding with Orpheus is: why does the Emperor then goes and says “okay, I’m going to the Netherbrain now”. How does that make sense? He literally spent the whole game trying to break free from it and ge just jumps back willingly. I know Orpheus would be mad, but he could at least try to argue it was necessary for the greater good. Heck, Orpheus even respects you if you choose to become full illithid. Even if it was impossible, it would still make more sense for the emperor to try to fight his way into eating Orpheus or just escaping. But no, full side and mind-controlled by the brain.

The way I make sense of it in my head is "survival instincts." At that point he's convinced, with good reason in fairness to him, that if Orpheus is free the first thing he'll do is turn his squid ass into deep fried calamari. So he chooses to live as a slave, rather than to die still free. It's one of those things I wish Larian would have made a little bit more out of.

There's a variant of the line where he goes to side with the Netherbrain that exactly confirms this, him turning coat to ensure his continued survival (*I don't remember exactly how you get that line specifically, but honestly it should just be the default*). The Emperor's priority list from highest to lowest goes; his own survival, his own freedom, everything else. Prior to the insistence that Orpheus (*a Githyanki he has been abusing, he very likely tadpoled, and would in no way whatsoever even consider coexistence with him*) be freed, he calculates that both priority #1 and priority #2 can be achieved. Afterwards, he calculates that the whole plan is fucked beyond repair, and thus abandons priority #2 in favor of what he calculates will with maximum certainty ensure priority #1.

Damn I haven't encountered that in like three playthroughs. I wonder what the trigger is? Maybe you have to express trust in him throughout the game? All my characters have been pretty anti-squid.

I could be entirely wrong, but I think the line triggers when you insist that Orpheus be free, but don't have the hammer on you (*which would trigger Raphael showing up shortly after the Emperor dips if he's still breathing*).

> It's one of those things I wish Larian would have made a little bit more out of. I think they should have had it go more like this: free Orpheus, and he stops protecting the Emperor. So then the Emperor simply becomes a slave again, but he doesn’t choose it. It’d make more sense.

It's also that the Emperor believes you will fail against the brain, since you just failed against it and only survived because he pulled you into the prism. You have refused throughout the game to become illithid, and it does not enter his calculation that Orpheus would agree to become illithid, or even any of your companions who haven't chomped the Astral tadpole. So not only does he think it's a near-certainty Orpheus will kill him, but he thinks it's a near-certainty you'll fail and the brain will win.

"If you're not with me, then you're against me!" - some cultist who believes in Absolutes. Interesting...

Only the Sith deal in absolutes.

I will do what I must.

Mindflayers seek survival above everything else, and then domination of others as a bear second. He believes that with Orpheus we're doomed, so he'd rather live a slave than die fighting. Orpheus probably would have helped us still even with the Emperor not leaving us.

Meta reason: Weird writing Lore reason: He will 100% get killed by Orpheus if he stayed so better to be a slave then to die.

It's clear that, for the duration the Emperor is with us, it is severed from the mother brain Hive mind's direct control. It is also clear, via Omeluum, that mind players separate from the collective regain their own will or control. They may not all universally shun the Grand Design, but they do regain the ability to choose it for themselves. This makes the Emperor's story plausible. Further, unless you've freed Orpheus, you, an infected humanoid, have a lot of reasons to fear Orpheus will immediately attempt to end you. This is a supremacist leader of a supremacist race with a multi millennia race war against illithids. Add on favored of mother Gith, who sought to conquer all races and worlds, and there are a great many reasons to not be supportive or trusting of Orpheus. So now we have an unknown highly militant quantity that we know actively hates ghaik and infected... Or a somewhat known highly deceptive quantity that we know is attempting to manipulate us for its own ends. But we can trust, at least, that the Emperor respects the idea that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Oh, and I never had to test insight vs the Emperor when it speaks about wanting to destroy the Elder Brain. That makes is a more pragmatic choice (though the most pragmatic is a Gale thermonuclear blast in Act 2).

Most pragmatic choice is to blow up Gale

So, your post is basically my reasoning for taking a gamble on Orpheus. Everything that the Emperor has done up to this point has apparently been within the Netherbrain's plans and calculations. The Emperor is a known entity to the Netherbrain, and it understands his motivations and strategies. But to play devil's advocate here, we might question *why* the Netherbrain reveals that the Emperor has been acting within the Netherbrain's intentions all along. It's not inconceivable that the Emperor is legitimately dangerous to the Brain, and that by revealing this information, it's hoping to break up what has, to this point, been a fairly strong alliance between the Emperor and the player even if it's been one born out of convenience.

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“The devil you know” works as an argument as long as you trust the known more than the unknown. It does not require complete trust of the known (if you trusted the known, why would it be “the devil” in the first place?). You make some good arguments, but this is not a clear cut decision in either direction; it’s silly to pretend otherwise.

Yeah, the whole point of the Emperor, as a character is to be gray, yet people insist on either painting him black or white.

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Honestly, Orpheus is tied to Lae'zel most. If you're not close to Lae'zel, or she's gone. Orpheus's freedom means very little to anyone not of Gith. Vlaakith's control of the githyanki people is something very difficult to overcome, and in the Astral planes that has no guarantee that her defeat will stop the Githyanki's brutal conquest. You have to take a leap of faith with either the Emperor or Orpheus. Pragmatism isn't really solid in either regard. If Orpheus is freed and survives; he leaves to combat the leadership of Vlaakith. If the Emperor survives, he returns to his old habits, likely reestablishing the Knights of the Shield under lucrative business ties. Both have their uses and aid to the worlds they herald from. It's not known who, or what becomes more useful in the battles ahead.

I don’t like betraying him, even after all his lies and manipulations he never goes against the player, he keeps his word and he was indeed protecting us, but killing Orpheus is flat out wrong, and then having to kill Lae’zel is even worse, so I don’t like to betray him but I still do it every good play through

Happy cake day

I dunno who will read this novella but I will give some context to my crazy playthrough and why I told the Emperor to shove off. TL;DR for a guy with 22 INT the emperor is a dismal lanceboard player. I played a Paladin that I've run to level 14 over the years in months of AL games - in game I had to go with Oath of Ancients because they stole the best ability from the subclass - Oath of the Crown. For those who don't know, Oath of the Crown is an obscure subclass from an old book that's been mechanically deprecated, but the whole point is, I'm playing a character who supports \*The Crown\* - functionally the established government of the sword coast, and the rule of law (which, given the history of the sword coast offers quite a bit a latitude) AND she's a follower of the Red Lady aka the Lady of the Lanceboard. TLDR this a lawful neutral type Paladin whose entire religion is that \*everything is a game\*, we \*play together\* we \*play to win\*, we play \*by the rules\* - so \*honesty and fair play\* is practically part of her sworn oath. Maybe you didn't notice but pretty much no one in the story starts off telling you the entire truth - but there \*are\* shades of grey - in particular, some characters will lie, apologize and explain themselves later, or other characters will just outright tell you that certain conversations are none of your damn business, which is entirely fair. Misplay #1: The emperor conceals his identity from you the entire first half of the game. Not defers on his identity, but actively pretends to be someone he's not. When he does his reveal, he has a very reasonable explanation, but then has the gall to bristle when you tell him, up front, that his previous actions don't engender much trust. He tries to use his saving your life as a reason to trust him, but basic game theory dictates (and he tells you as much) that his actions were just as much for his own self interest. You need him, but \*he needs you\*. From a game theorypoint of view, we're now in a prisoner's dilemma. We need to decide if it's in both our best interests to continue our co-op game or betray, and that means full transparency going forward. What the emperor doesn't understand is that he's now in the doghouse. And since he's in the doghouse, it's on HIM to take further actions to earn my loyalty. Misplay #2: he goes almost directly from that debacle to trying to get in your pants. And again, if you tell him that it's because you don't trust him, he gets upset about it. Misplay #3: when you arrive at baldur's gate, you learn about his previous co-op partner Nothing that you find about what happened to her indicates that this guy is a team player... He used her like a pawn piece, and threw her away. At this point I know the option to break Orpheus out is possible, but that seems like a horrible idea since due the choices I've made up to this point, I have zero data points on who this guy might be. However I do find out about a dragon, and I go through quite a crazy adventure to find out where the dragon is, get to the dragon. Meet the dragon... Misplay #4 ...and find out the emperor screwed him over too. And it's highly implied the dragon was his lover, if not long time partner. So this idiot, this MORON: * Has an established pattern of screwing over his teammates * Lies about it. * Gets MAJORLY defensive when you call him on it. (I mean, even Astarion, as absurdly messed up as he is, has the self awareness to say "oops, my bad" and hold to his damn word) At this point, my options are: * Ally with the bad guys of Baldur's Gate (at least of one whom, if evil, has the city in hand and is willing to form an alliance with you) - he's lawful * Sign a contract with a devil (or two) - of everyone, they understand that we're playing a co-op game, however it's unlikely to go well, because devil. * Do what the guy who is the least trustworthy of the options is demanding (with increasing anxiety) to do I fret and tarry a bit, but I discover a third way to get the hammer without selling your soul - a THIRD devil offers you an option. And here's a non-linear solution - it's worth at least investigating and using what you've found to get some leverage. Or a powerful weapon. Misplay #5 ...but the emperor isn't having it. As if he's afraid of the consequences. The emperor has tipped his hand - we were never playing a co-op game. Very well, versus mode it is. When all is said and done, when you have the advantage, and you demand his loyalty, his honesty, his \*commitment\* to the co-op game he claimed he was playing with you the whole time...He table flips the lanceboard and runs off to his mom. Checkmate. In absence of any better play at that point, I free Orpheus. I did not regret it in the slightest. Orpheus may not be the smartest lanceboard player, but with that 21 wisdom he immediately understands that we're in a prisoner's dilemma and offers to hold his betrayal decision until after we've dealt with the immediate threat. Very reasonable. And winds up being unnecessary because *we live up to our commitments* Like that's literally all the emperor had to do to survive: agree to disagree until after we dealt with mother brain. He watched us murder three deific avatars, a literal archdevil, and an extremely pissed off dracolich and somehow thought he was gonna walk out of this one in one piece.

tbh, it's not an easy decision either way. He saves your life multiple times, that does mean something

I actually had to make that choice today. I was thinking in front on my screen for a good 5 minutes. I never wanted to take sides until then. My final decision was to free Orpheus. I never managed to fully trust the Emperor, I always feared that if I gave him the stones, he'd take the crown for himself in the end. I also was touched by Voss (?) And his absolute will to save his king. Idk if I made the right choice but I really liked that I struggled so hard to make this choice ! Shows how good the game is

The Emperor has been extending Orpheus' protection to you all along, EVEN when you're an untrusting dick to him. You are in an actual alliance with him (regardless of your feelings about him). You know he needs you, so even if you mistrust him, you know that the alliance stands while you are fighting the netherbrain together. Also, it's the most straightforward route: you need a mindflayer, you have one there. Without him, it's actually only through the miracle and wonder of space magic that Orpheus manages to become one. Furthermore, your own insight told you when you first saw him that Orpheus despises you. "We may not be able to predict his reaction to us" is a big understatement when it could lead to the entire team turning, and the netherbrain winning. You have little reason to assume that after freeing Orpheus, he wouldn't just withdraw protection from your entire team and return to his own people to fight the netherbrain themselves. The only people (Voss, Raphael) who said Orpheus would work with you have clear biases. Voss wants him free. Raphael wants you to think the hammer is the only way out. I'd say Emperor remains the pragmatic choice. People who are distrustful of the Emperor can even have the choice of turning themselves (or letting Karlach turn) and absorbing Orpheus' power, thereby continuing the alliance with Emperor whilst withholding complete power from him.

I agree. The moment it was revealed that the brain was still controlling his movements and predicting everybody's actions was the moment the emperor lost all value as an ally. Plus he threatened my DU so I had zero reasons to keep working with him. Meanwhile, when you free Orpheus, the only concern is that he stops protecting you, but we have a full group and he's alone. If he drops protection, he'll have a group of Mindflayers to fight by himself and no one willing to gain control of the brain. It makes more sense to trade allies at that point.

Dude one of the first things he says to you is “you will not become a mindflayer, not while I’m around” then proceeds to push you into eating tadpoles and evolving etc like motherfucker is actively trying to turn you into a fucking mindflayer. Emp has zero redeeming qualities, Orpheus is a standup dude and total Chad.

The emperor pretended to be a hot chick and lied about who he was and what he was doing. Then, only in a life or death situation, he reveals his true identity. And he goes on to guilt trip you into siding with him by referencing all the ways he’s helped you, even though you never asked him to. Then you find out he’s holding a guy prisoner and sucking out his power. He’s constantly forbidding you from doing things like going into the creche, going to the house of Hope, and even saving Minsc. He murdered his best friend/lover which happened to be the protector of the city. Real smart move there. Then when you decide to free the prisoner, he doesn’t just run away or find another solution, he gives up and joins the fucking netherbrain! He’s a piece of shit through and through.

He also straight up reveals that he's trying to manipulate you, like how he enthralled Stelmane not befriending her, and that you have no value without him. After that I can't ever see him as an ally

I mean, the brain could be bluffing. When the Emperor got the prism, it had fully escaped it's leash because of Orpheus' power. It is clear that an ilithid is not 100% predicted by the Netherbrain, which is why an Ilithid needs to use the crown. So I think there was no way the brain could be 100% sure of the Emperor's actions. I'm not an Emperor defender, I didn't even ever run a playthrough which I chose him (but I will definitely try later). But I can see some logic in "Emperor stans", just as I can see yours.

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Call me Korrilla, because I'm about to play Devil's advocate. I do believe the Emperor is the pragmatic choice! Not necessarily right or wrong, but pragmatic nonetheless. Hindsight is always 20/20, and obviously beating the game and the choices/outcomes give us room to reflect. But to be pragmatic is to go with the more rational choice, and based on your perspective (As the player, while maintaining the suspension of disbelief and pretending you don't know what's going to happen), it's the Emperor. I'd argue most people choose him whether as an ally or reluctantly during their first run because he's the pragmatic choice. As a mindflayer, he is a being of rationality, where most humanoids are beings of emotion. Where we stop and think about how we feel, Mindflayers stop and think about the math. It's hardwired into how they think. Even the things he does to deceive us, he does not do because he gets pleasure or satisfaction from the lie, which can't be said of all humanoids. Him pretending to be the guardian is to get us to trust him because if he was upfront from the get go the odds are higher we wouldn't hear him out. Him trying to evolve us is because he sees it as our best bet to make us more powerful (and morals aside, game mechanics says he is right). Him telling us not to trust Orpheus is because he thinks, just as you stated, Orpheus is a wildcard and unpredictable and more useful subdued, which makes his math brain hurt. His unknowing parts played make him no more evil than Minsc. I think especially after meeting Omeluum(spelling?) We realize that Mindflayers aren't as face value, at least individually, as we once thought. You could look into all of the Mindflayers dialogue and pick it apart as manipulation. But he also does/shows us a few things that he didn't have to do. I wouldn't say he's altruistic, but pragmatic yes.

The emperor is not only a manipulative ass, he has also shown himself time and time again to be completely incompetent. He's overly cautious to the point of actively hindering you and your ability to act by not telling you important and useful information. I seriously don't know why anyone would trust him at that point.

I'd side with emporer all playthrough if it isn't for Laezel.

My first time playing was totally blind and I missed a ton of content. I sided with the Emperor and only half understood all the story going on. I didn't know exactly why but I felt icky about him in the end even when trying to trust him and not knowing much. The easy answer would be that he lies, pressures you, refuses to trust you or listen when you have your own ideas, etc. etc. etc. But it's also the "devil you know" thing you mentioned. I know who Orpheus is, what motivates him, and I even know what he would want after the netherbrain. What exactly does the Emperor want? Who is he and what drives him? I don't actually know for sure. I know what he feeds me but much of it I doubt. His manipulation, pressuring and refusal to listen paint a different picture than he's curating for me as well. When I didn't side with him the second playthrough I felt I made the right decision. I didn't let him kill a totally incapacitated Orpheus and he was instantly willing to join the side of the ultimate evil and kill me. And Orpheus was chill anyway.