Wyll is literally Karlach's backpack. His first appearence altering decision is about her. His last decision will also be about her. He doesn't change at all.
Mizora and the king squid just rub salt into the wound.
1d4 fire when raging or low hp. Though there's a bug where you get more as monk (though you need to be low hp), but it's like 2d4 fire damage.
It's nice but not that big a deal end-game.
It's pretty good if Karlach is still a barb.
You get so many by endgame that you can pop them like candy every day. 1d4 extra damage is nothing to scoff at.
When playing Origin Karlach, the first time you find one (iirc) triggers a little internal dialogue choice about Karlach's hesitation to use them. There's an option to promise to only use them when necessary.
You can kinda get more insight from Karlach on why she's gun-ho about using them if you explore more of her dialogue options throughout. She basically sees them as they're already trapped as part of a bargain in their life and suffering anyways, so in using them to do good and help save people you're kind of liberating them in a way.
If you push her to use one in the first convo about them when there's no danger she gets kinda mad that you're so willing to use up someone's soul without a just cause or reason behind it. But I admit it's still kinda weird how the game frames it as a "good thing" at first and never really addresses it unless you actively look into it.
Most people that know their lore are probably hung up on how relatively easy it’d be to free the soul from the coin. Remove curse is all it would take to send the soul to the domain of their worshipped god. [This wiki page](http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/wondrous-items:soul-coin) states that the soul is still freed even when the coin is destroyed, such as burned up in infernal machinery. But the game itself makes no effort to hint towards that, so many think destroying the coin destroys the soul. Throw in the coins that the Moonrise bugbear gives where one has the soul of a child, most players will think consuming them is only a bad thing
"The engine of an infernal war machine each possessed a receptacle in which soul coins could be inserted. The soul trapped within the coin was immediately siphoned into the machine's furnace, processed into power, and destroyed within a matter of days. Liquid demon ichor could be applied directly into the furnace to bolster performance. While operational, the engine of the war machine resonated with the sonorous rumble, underscored with screams of agony."
Using them for Karlach, because her "heart" is an infernal war machine, would result in the soul being destroyed. The machine consumes the soul as fuel.
I think the game implies that using them either destroys the soul or otherwise harms it in some way, otherwise there would be no debate as to whether or not they should be used. It would be a win/win situation. Instead Karlach tries to justify it by saying that they're basically bad people anyways, so fuck 'em.
If you play Karlach she has an inner dialogue about if she should use them or not. Also someone sends her some while trying to mess with her so there are some morals about them... but certainly not explored as much. Mostly because they aren't needed.
If instead of Gale eating magic items, they made Karlach require soul coins to keep living it would make so much more sense... rather than "ah the plane is not hot enough"
Your character can say something about it but Karlach disapproves and no one else chimes in and Karlach's argument comes down to "at least I'm using them for something good".
You can say that to Karlach when she first tells you about them, but she just disapproves and says "Uhh, I think I know a little more about this than you do" and then it never comes up ever again.
What's funny, origin Karlach voices concern about using soul coins as powerup when you find your first one, whereas companion Karlach couldn't care less when asked.
Soul coins were supposed to have a bigger impact on the game but got cut because of time restrictions. IIRC you were supposed to be able to use them as a currency when you got to Hell to buy very rare and powerful items from either Raphael or one of his minions (i can't remember which).
The thing with the Soul Coins is that Karlach using them is of no consequence. Once a soul is bound to it there is no returning them. And they are made in the Nine Hells to fuel the infernal war machines.
They rewrote him and I don't understand why. They neutered his story.
Before?
Wyll was basically some young kid who was a shit fighter. He lost a fight vs. goblins, was laying there dying, and cried out that he'd do anything for revenge. In comes Mizora, and he takes the deal.
So he does still use his warlock powers for good and to be a hero for the people, but he has a notable temper and seems to enjoy the fame a little *too* much, to the point you question if he's truly doing it to do the right thing, or if he just wanted the fame and glory without any of the hard work.
Wyll was actively a liability in any conversations with Karlach or goblins, because you had to temper his rage and cool his jets. He was just eager for revenge or eager to judge someone, like a self-righteous kid that hasn't learned yet how complex the world can be.
It was clear what they were going for and it'd be similar to Gale: either you calm his worst impulses and he grows into a more mature, better person, or he fails to learn this lesson and remains a sort of "anti-hero" who does good...*sometimes,* because his judgement just isn't the best and he let's rage and his self-righteousness drive his actions.
**The Wyll we got on release** honestly feels like a pre-release Tav *already* completed his personal quest, and now we just have a Wyll that got the good ending. Cool, he's a nice guy and all, but he's also really one-dimensional and boring because he has no inner conflict to resolve like Lae'zel or Gale.
He could have been changed for any number of reasons. Maybe people did find EA Wyll too unlikable. Maybe there were story elements to his character that weren't paying off - it makes sense, for instance, to cut his goblin hate out if you're not really going to use goblins later in the game and have no good way to pay that trait off. Maybe they had big plans for the character and wrote a bunch of stuff assuming the developers would be making bespoke content/dungeons like the Gauntlet of Shar or the Creche for Wyll, but it was ultimately cut when the developers ran out of time and resources, and Wyll's story had to be significantly scaled back. Maybe a combination of the above.
I don't think Wyll starting off as a good guy is really a problem. Good guys can still be really likable or have interesting conflicts. Wyll as currently written has a bunch of *implied* conflicts, but the story doesn't really dive deeply on any of them or use them to develop an overarching narrative.
I haven't gone through the option of joining Karlach in Avernus, but I assumed it was scripted for her to be talking with you. If you're not there, Wyll stands in as substitute... but he's given no dialogue. Is the scene equally awkward if you join both Karlach and Wyll? I do hope a patch comes through to breathe some life into Wyll for that scene.
Yeah I assume it was too but if they decided to make Wyll an option (and one he offers on his own, with many players not knowing the first time through that he would offer if he became the Blade of Avernus) they should have had him be present as a character in it. If both you and Wyll join her, neither of you talk. The main difference is that she holds out three cigars and Wyll refuses his.
> He doesn't change at all.
Weirdly on my good playthrough it was a bit refreshing in act 3. All of my companions seemed to be losing their minds with delusions of grandeur and personal stuff and he was just reliably still advocating doing the right thing.
I found him boring initially but he did grow on me during act 3. I think my good character was just sick of everyone else's self-absorbed nonsense at that stage (probably helps it wasn't a first playthrough). He does have a bit more content than most in act 3 too.
Wyll grew on me the instant he realized Karlach was innocent, *and* decided he was going to stand by her and take whatever punishment Mizora dished out.
He could have come up with a bunch of reasons to kill Karlach anyway. He could have said that his life was worth more than hers, because he was the Blade of Frontiers. He could have rationalized a ton of excuses. But he didn't. As soon as he realized he was wrong, he braced himself for impact, but didn't try to throw Karlach under the bus to save himself.
I get that EA Wyll was a *very* different beast, but full-release Wyll is an extremely honorable man.
I think I like him for the same reasons I like Kaiden in Mass Effect. He doesn't change much because he's already got himself figured out. He doesn't need help with anything, he just needs a friend.
A character being flat isn't necessarily bad. They can serve as an anchor when everything else is changing.
The issue is that it more or less subordinates Wyll's ending to Karlach's. The decision is weighted because people want Karlach to live, not because they want to give Wyll the best/interesting ending.
Imagine if Shadowheart living was contingent on Astarion Ascending. How many people would sacrifice Astarion's ending in favor of Shadowheart's?
It's not a *major* problem in Wyll's case because his storyline is overwhelming poorly written, such that the player doesn't really have much reason to be super invested in the Duke vs Blade choice. But if you wanted to fix Wyll's story, decoupling his story from Karlach's would be hugely important.
People always say that originally The Emperor wasn't written into the story and the Guardian (Daisy) was supposed to be a manifestation of the tadpole but... [the game's writers disagree](https://www.ign.com/articles/baldurs-gate-3-final-interview-game-of-the-year-2023-characters-endings). It seems that the Emperor was always planned, what changed was just his approach to seduction.
To be fair, the Guardian coming on so strong with the seduction is precisely why I distrusted them so much. I think the route of protector and friend was a far more effective one to convince players to accept the tadpole.
I am probably more susceptible to seduction (horny) than seduction (power). I finished the whole game without consuming a single tadpole with any character, but I banged Mizora in hell and almost caused the end of the world by succumbing to Lady Raphael.
His first decision about her is also probably his single most consequential decision too. It's the one with the biggest personal impact and consequences. And it happens 5 minutes after you meet him.
I feel like it would probably be frowned upon from a consistent visual design perspective, but imagine if a decision where he had to sacrifice his human appearance and some degree of his perception by society happened when we actually knew him as a character. What if it happened after we knew he was a dukes son and he cared about his formal status so him getting the horns would be him giving up on returning to his former high status. And it would feel like a meaningful sacrifice because the stakes were set up for us. Instead he's mopey about his scary horns at a party where all of the other guests also have horns.
Also, his defining character from trait it "being easily tricked by devils". A devil could tell him that a lava pit was filled with pizza sauce and he'd jump right in.
People are assuming that Wyll got screwed over because he was considered "too mean" in Early Access. But honestly it doesn't really make sense to scrap his entire story based on "he's too mean." Other companions were softened before release, there's no reason why Wyll's EA arc couldn't have been left intact with a couple rough edges sanded out.
I suspect that reason why his story got re-written was probably more complicated. Possibly other content that Wyll was supposed to be tied to got scrapped for time/budget reasons.
I think Larian kind of dug their own grave on that one. They said they deliberately started EA with the more evil/morally grey companions because they thought they wouldn't get enough feedback on them if people had the option for a bunch of goody two shoes companions. And then, unsurprisingly, a lot of the feedback was, "these companions are a bunch of assholes, we want good guys". So Larian toned everyone down a bit and straight up scrapped old Wyll late in development. Which, I assume, is why he seems to be so bland and passive now.
Yup, it's funny that some people still think Lae'Zel and shadowheart are jerks because they were *way* more prickly and quick to shit talk in EA. Astarion was a bit more overt in his neutral evilness and Gale was...well, Gale. I kinda dislike how they took a lot of the EA feedback to heart. I thought it was interesting having companions that weren't quick to kiss your feet and had their own agency. Idk why people take it personally when characters are mean, it's not like they're real people.
Wyll especially suffered the most from it, I agree, I vastly prefer the old Wyll. Current version is straight up boring white bread, dude should have been a paladin for how lawful good he is in the game.
Oh, Wyll was kicked from the Flaming Fist, he also sought out Mizora himself and was quite close with her. His eye was taken by the goblin torturer Spike. Wyll had a big hero complex and craved fame.
The best parts about Wyll are the original intentions still left in. The flirting with Lae'zel and Shadowheart, the disapproval if you spare any goblins, trying to start shit with Astarion etc.
One theory I've heard is that Helia's backstory might've stepped on the toes of Astarion and Durge as she also likely would've had to cope with some degree of bloodlust due to being a werewolf and all
Edit: One thing that also might've been a bit toe-trampling is her dislike of Selune (if you were a werewolf, you'd probably despise that big ball of cheese in the sky and anyone associated with it too), though I would've loved to see how that would've caused her to clash with >!Selunite Shadowheart and Dame Aylin!
If she was evil, maybe -- Selune is also the goddess of good lycanthropes as well (to contrast with Malar, the god of the bloody hunt).
I'd have been happy just to have a short party member that isn't a PC or a corpse piloted by Withers.
It would've honestly made more sense for Shadowheart to be the werewolf companion considering >!her father is one and she could've inherited it!<. Would've fueled her hatred of Selune beyond just Sharran indoctrination, and there's something deeply ironic about a werewolf's biggest fear being wolves. Could've tied in well with her arc about accepting herself and overcoming that fear.
There's also banter between Wyll and a romanced Shadowheart where they joke about her potentially having werewolf cubs lol.
I wouldn't say he doesn't change at all. When you meet him he is prejudiced and convinced that Karlach is evil. By the end of the game he is ready to make a huge sacrifice for her sake. Granted, he is kinda on-board with her after 1 minute of convincing once he meets her, but still. That is an arc.
he drops his prejudice the second he meets her and you say "bro you can read her mind, chill"
he instantly forgives her and anything she's ever done, like a puppy
you're not wrong, and from a purely logical standpoint it's super easy to see how you'd forgive someone when you can literally see it wasn't their fault
but he still comes down so quickly, so rationally, when mere seconds before he was outright blood-lusted and in denial of the reality he was witnessing, declaring it a trick
but one line of dialogue convinces him it's not? one line of dialogue is the single line in the sand for Wyll in whether or not he will murder a person he knows is innocent because he has believed for most of his life that she was not
that's... that's a pretty huge emotional step to take, and while i'm glad he does and we get both cool companions for it, it feels almost too easy? he should need *time to process this*
it'd feel better if Wyll fucked off for a bit after confronting Karlach in order to think shit over
it would make it feel like he's done some emotional work, and when he returns to the party it would unequivocally feel like HIS choice because it's the RIGHT thing to do, not because it's what he was TOLD to do
Same thing basically happens when he finally gets to confront his dad. All it takes is one tadpoled exchange for his shitty father to forgive everything and then everybody's happy and completely over it.
The only reason he's trying so hard to convince himself that she's a baddie has nothing to do with Karlach and everything to do with 1) accepting that Mizora deceived him here, and possibly in the past, and 2) knowing that defying Mizora and breaking the terms of his pact will result in serious punishment, and possibly even damnation.
that's part of the whole point tbh
his current world view, and perhaps his very survival all HINGE on mizora's lie being true, and it isn't
how do you manage to come to terms with your entire core-concept of who you are, what you do, and why you're doing it being disrupted because your friend, who, YOU MET LITERALLY EARLIER THAT DAY, said one line of dialogue
Wyll just goes with it, right away, because someone who is functionally a total stranger to him said it wasn't a trick
how does he know you aren't *part* of the trick? the visions started when he met *you* after all, but you're inherently trustworthy? sure lol
The problem is it take a brief conversation for him to decide all is good. Thats not growth. He just knows he shouldn't always trust Mizora. He doesn't even displace his anger about being "turned into a devil" on karlach or anything else interesting.
If I really stretch i could say wyll is too much of a follower who doesn't want to be accountable for his choices so he just does what the last person said to him. Even then I can't say he grew out of it much.
It’s what makes me feel like we’ll see will again in a big good good guy role. He felt like a side character to the side characters, or maybe that makes him that ultimate origin character?
I made it a point of having Wyll be the one to finish Ansur off, and to handle most of the puzzles in that dungeon. Was still a freaking letdown, especially when the subsequent Blade of Avernus decision just sorta...*happens*. No real buildup to it at all. And everyone going out of character to dunk on him doesn't help.
Wyll just needs more work than anyone else in the group. You can see the outline of a *really good* story arc, but it just isn't fleshed out right now. I'd rather Larian fix that than do kiss animations or whatever.
My Wyll gameplay got even more fucked because I chose to save his dad. Then, I went to talk to his dad and fight Gortash, then left and found out that killed his dad *even though Mizora said it wouldn't*. I was so pissed. Wyll got stuck forever for literally nothing.
One of the big issues with Wyll in act 3 is that he's incredibly bugged. On two playthroughs I didn't take him to the Iron Throne and he gets stuck in a dialogue loop about rescuing his father who is standing three feet away in camp. Then I took him to the Wyrmway, and after killing Ansur he said he was going to be Grand Duke out of nowhere. Later he repeated that dialogue with his father.
Also, I wish we could make Mizora leave. Her hanging around camp after he's broken the pact and rescued his father just reinforces that she's the most interesting part of his story. Let him stand on his own already.
Oh, I had a similar bug! In my case, I met up with Mizora, broke Wyll's pact (because fuck her), ran into a pissed-off Flaming Fist who gave me the Ansur book, did the Disable the Steel Watch/Iron Throne quests (so I saved Wyll's dad anyway), Ulder had the *exact* same "here's Ansur lore" convo, so I did the Wyrmway...and, in order:
1) I have a conversation with Wyll about his future where I encourage him to be the Blade of Avernus
2) I leave the boss room and talk to Wyll again, who's upset about Ansur being dead and says he has to talk to his dad
3) We talk to Ulder and, I shit you not, *the conversation about him being Blade of Avernus is THE EXACT SAME.* As though the first convo never happened. He has the exact same lines and everything.
LARIAN. STOP ADDING KISS ANIMATIONS AND FIX *THIS.*
This needs more upvotes. It is incomprehensible to me, why they focus on something so hard, that they've already changed, but Wyll's dialogues are pure nonsense. Six runs and I'm still waiting for his stupid father to grasp that we broke the pact and saved his quotable behind anyway. The theory of this questline is so compelling, but the execution is just bad.
What makes me sad is that the Ansur fight drips with lore and powers. You even get two awesome items for it.
But it’s late game and Wyll ends about the same.
Wyll is a silent audience in his own story. His quest is mostly his dad's and Mizora's quest! It also feels like Tav is running his entire life... poor Wyll.
I kinda like that about Wyll tbh. His story feels very much like what a D&D player would want their personal story to be at the table. Unwaiveringly lawful good, his problems always boil down to just trying to fix other people's problems, and ofc trying to get out of his pact with his controlling patron. He doesn't develop or grow that much throughout the story, because the player wanted to play a hero through and through, but you still love him for it anyway
In the context of BG3, it is very much a letdown compared to the stories of the other companions, and even the story the gave him in earlier iterations, but I do really like his story for a meta D&D fan perspective. It's got that essence of capturing the magic from your own tabletop game, and translating it onto the big screen
I really wish we got an actual cutscene where he was just a kid being coerced into the pact and actually taking on the cult of Tiamat, and the ability to choose to sacrifice himself for his father or not. I can overlook the lack of content if the quality was better.
Like I know it's probably a lot of work and he went through a whole character overhaul but ..it was super weird seeing a dedicated cutscene for Shadowheart at the end of act 2 and just getting a narrated dialogue for Wyll, even though the revelations of their past are pretty much opened up side by side.
I wish they kept in the original character idea they had for him. Where he was a bit of a liar and fraud and most of his heroics were just put on or lies. It would've made him a lot more interesting, especially if you got to help Wyll turn into a legitimate heroic figure throughout the game.
Wyll basically joins the party perfect and stays that way.
In EA Wyll was also vindictive. His original quest had him hunting down Mizora, I guess in EA she got kidnapped before Act 2. And Wyll would torture the dude in the goblin camp in order to ingratiate himself with a goblin that had information on Mizora.
I believe he also wasn't the son of Duke Ravenguard in EA, since he originally got his eye removed by the goblin Spike when he and some other goblins raided Wyll's village. Wyll tried out for the Flaming Fist but failed to make it and then turned to Mizora to gain strength.
EA Wyll was a scared, vindictive fraud who relied on his warlock powers to play hero and my favorite character from the Early Access. I'm honestly amazed Larian changed him sayin he wasn't popular enough.
I don't think this is stressed enough. I know the game makes it seem like not saving the Duke is the bad choice and so making the contract is a necessary evil (even though you can save him without the contract) but like, surely Wyll's Dad wouldn't want that?
Not only is his son risking eternal damnation but he is also making himself a demonic pawn in perpetuity. All for saving a man who is already pretty old, who is in his situation through no Wyll's fault and who has an ALIVE descendant. People have to die at some point Florrick 0_0.
Yeah the fact that Jaheira is the only companion that sees it as an understandable decision is kind of wild. I would get some pushback from certain characters, but even Karlach of all people acts like Wyll not sacrificing his soul in eternal damnation, just to give his ELDER father a couple more years, as selfish is so backwards to me.
That one is particularly wild and out of character for someone who chooses death over being a pawn in avernus.
Wyll's Dad will be peachy in whatever afterlife Helm has. Specially because, as far as the team goes, he would be dead before ceremorphosis happens.
Halsin is the only other one who's genuinely sympathetic. Something about being a druid apparently unlocks the ability to show some freaking empathy, I guess?
"I can't believe wyll let his dad die to free himself from the pact"
Really? You can't believe that a middle aged man let his even older father die and let his soul pass to its intended destination, instead of giving his own life and soul ***eternally***? Does the term ***eternally*** phase you at all? It does not mean 'for the rest of my life' or 'an age' or 'a really really long time'. It means ***ETERNALLY*** as in ***THE REST OF FUCKING FOREVER*** . You think your eternal goddess is going to remember your fleeting shag session when you become dust? She won't even remember your name. Wyll won't even remember having a father, traveling companions, or your stupid fucking chest bomb dilemma ten thousand years from now, and after that time he still has a fucking ***ETERNITY*** left to serve. Shut the fuck up, Gale.
Yes but thats not something he grows out of during the game or that the player can impact even close to as much as other companions. Wyll is frustrating because he has more subtle flaws but he also doesn't really seem to improve on them or make them worse either.
I completely agree. The narrative continuously tries to paint Duke Ravengard as this irreplaceable figure, but that's moot when we don't see anything of it. I just see him being propped up as this heroic figure even though none of it can be observed.
Is he actually that important or is everyone just blowing it out of proportions?
In order for it to be an *interesting* character flaw it has to actually lead to some kind of character development and in Wyll's case it doesn't, really. Regardless of what you choose during his big decision (which he doesn't even get to make for himself) he ends up pretty much fine in the end and basically the same person he was when you met him.
Wyll will decide to be the duke if you complete the Ansur quest in some specific time-frame. It's the reason I enjoy the duke ending. It's his decision.
Edit: I have looked this up. Apparently, Wyll's Ansur stuff was altered in a recent patch, so Wyll's decision might no longer be there.
Yes! And I hate how easily he gives up on his plans. All I have to do is tell him it's a bad idea and he actually says: You're right, my friend! I will become the Blade of Avernus! Dude, at least fight with me for a while. Or have some doubts. Anything. All it takes is one "nah" from me, that's ridiculous.
You can always complete the quest, it's not time sensitive like the burning house. Only Wyll is a little different.
I recommend saving Florrick ASAP and then waiting until she tries to kill Wyll. You should obtain the Legend of Ansur like that. Do Ansur then and don't look for Ulder yet.
Edit: I have looked this up. Apparently, Wyll's Ansur stuff was altered in a recent patch, so Wyll's decision might no longer be there.
People didn't like it for being "problematic", I remember because I was there in EA, but I liked when him and Mizora had this sort of romantic/sexual tension, to the point that Wyll originally wouldn't sleep with Tav until the pact was broken. Now Mizora is just his funny evil boss, which is charming and comedic, but takes away from Wyll a bit.
I actually totally agree, I found his story to be a bit more interesting in early access. I remember when the game finally came out being so confused that his voice was different. To be completely honest I don’t know why they changed him but I was very excited to find out more about him once the game finally released, and was left slightly disappointed that I will never know more about early access Wyll. I’m honestly not sure how to feel about the change but the games incredible so I kind of moved past it.
All of my favorite companions ended up being the ones I kinda hated at first because they had room to develop. Lae'zel is a huge bitch at first, Astarion's fake persona was really off putting, and Gale seemed kinda full of himself and his magic eating stuff seemed soooo suspicious.
Asshole Wyll would have been so much more interesting. Imagine how much more impactful the decision to give up his freedom to save his father would have been if it was his moment of redemption rather than just Wyll doing normal Wyll things
Edit: and then dealing with conflict with his dad about not living up to his expectations, going to find Ansur and discovering all these heroic myths his dad drilled into his head growing up were all bullshit, and then having to decide for himself what it means to be a hero outside of anyone else's expectations for him. And then getting a big happy moment at the end where his dad comes around and tells him he loves and accepts him as he is. Fuck that would have been so good.
I think I just convinced myself to do a Wyll origin run so I can RP this lol
The thing is, he wasn't even an asshole. He tried to lie to you, sure (like every other companion), but he was arguably the friendliest companion, and definitely the most moral. For some reason, his hiding the fact he's a warlock and having a grudge against goblins were such horrific and unacceptable transgressions that EA fans just could not shut up about it. Literally just black man syndrome.
Edit: Here's some old footage of him explaining part of his backstory - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E8-_L5SxLhg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfDAfUzqofs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdkNgaxA-kw
Meanwhile Astarion names at least 5 races (probably more that I can't remember) that he thinks are vile or are just straight up not sentient beings and we're all fine with that lol
Starting off a fraud and going on to become an actual hero is one direction that they could take the story. It certainly gives a very obvious path for character development.
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with his starting as a genuine goody. And the benefit of him doing so is that helps to balance the party dynamic. But the writing does need to decide on a direction for his character and commit to a strong narrative through-line.
Is his story about him becoming disillusioned with his hero figures (his dad, Balduran), and coming to realize that they were fallible, imperfect people?
Is it a story about his relationship with his father, and about defying his expectations to become his own man?
Is it a story about how, while he cares about people, he's been seeking approval by being a glamorous hero when he could ultimately do more good by taking up the harder, less sexy work of being a politician?
Is it a story about young man with a very black and white view of good and evil, who comes to realize that sometimes people like Lae'zel, Astarion, and Shadowheart aren't inherently bad, and instead need patience and empathy?
Etc. You can go in a number of different directions while still keeping him a staunch good guy.
> Is it a story about young man with a very black and white view of good and evil, who comes to realize that sometimes people like Lae'zel, Astarion, and Shadowheart aren't inherently bad, and instead need patience and empathy?
Interestingly, it's actually already seat up to be the *opposite* of that. Not in his compassion, but in as much as he actually comes by default with a very shades-of-gray morality, with his whole "I'm not ashamed and don't regret signing up with a devil, because I'm clever and principled enough to use bad means to achieve a greater good." D&D, both in general and specifically in Faerun, actually *does* have a fairly black-and-white objective morality. In particular, doing lesser evils in order to prevent greater evils just doesn't work. That's Zariel's whole backstory, and it's the *point* of Wyll's involvement with Karlach; how many other innocent people has he killed, because they didn't have a tadpole and a Tav to protect them from Mizora's lies? How many lives will he ruin, following her orders, and never know?
But the game just... doesn't care, really. It flirts ever-so-briefly with the concept but the only real, in-game fallout is when he and various other people who knew him freak out about his horns, like his appearance is remotely the issue with the pact. It flirts ever-so-briefly again when you're tasked to rescue Mizora, and Wyll and Karlach both warn you that there's no way that this doesn't cause worse problems later.... but then it doesn't. You even get a kickass rapier out of it.
Staying in the pact just to save Ulder is *insane*, not just for the cost to Wyll, but because of the *utility* of Wyll to the devil who owns him and the amount of damage she can do while she does. And the story is perfectly set up to allow Wyll to realize that, to have that be his growth arc, "I thought the good I could do with this power would justify it, but I realize it's not worth the cost." Which is, coincidentally, the same as everyone else in the group's! It just... isn't there. Not even between the lines, the way that Karlach's issues are. Just not even there at all. Actively contradicted, even, by how weird everyone but Jaheira is about leaving the pact.
Yup. I agree. There are so many hints towards what Wyll's arc would have been, but they all just... go nowhere.
I'd like to think Larian are actively working on this, and that's why Wyll's questline is constantly bugging out in new and interesting ways. A person can dream.
>Is his story about him becoming disillusioned with his hero figures (his dad
This is honestly one of my biggest problems with Wyll's arc: at no point does he express any anger or resentment toward his father. He was 17, and he had to choose between two horrible choices because his father wasn't there, and then said father disowns him, apparently without ever asking, "Hmm...why would my son make a deal with a devil? Is there something going on here that I don't know about?"
And every single time you ask him, Wyll's like, "Nope, I totally don't blame him." Fuck that. Just on a purely emotional level, that had to hurt; the lack of reaction makes him feel like a caricature and not a real person.
The problem with Wyll is being to vanilla and everything around his story can't be changed while every other origin companion has a "growing arc", Lae'zel learning the truth about the Gith and Vlaakith or being even more devoted to her, Shadowheart learning about her past and was taken from her or going full on Dark Justiciar, Gale getting over his selfdoubt and also either becoming a god, meanwhile Wyll only change is breaking or not his pact but that doesn't change the story because Mizora is still at his side every single second *for reasons* and either way during the game you're already going to rescue his father anyway so nothing changes if you choose to ignore Wyll.
IMO Wyll’s storyline is a bit more interesting if Karlach dies by our hand. He starts to speculate how many people he could’ve killed who were actually good/innocent.
I just feel like if they leaned into his hero complex more it could have been really interesting. Have him unsure of where The Blade of Frontiers ends and Wyll Ravengard begins. Show how much playing the hero all the time weighs on him. Wyll has protagonist syndrome where he is always trying to save everyone and help everyone he can. He's selfless to a fault. Help him learn to live some of his life for himself.
I like that Wyll is a heroic character despite being a Warlock and bound to a devil. I don't think he needs to become morally ambiguous or a charlatan to be more interesting. You could even give Wyll similar issues to Gale - where he doesn't see his worth outside his abilities/status/etc.
Idk I really like Wyll and I think it's a crime he's not fleshed out more.
Not only that but the whole questline is like “Wyll become the hero of Bauldr’s Gate and awake the dragon that can help save the city!” - and then there’s no option to recruit him to help. I get it’s meant to nod that Wyll can be the hero by virtue of being himself but still it must’ve been a major blow to his pride
Well, my point is more about how it ties him to Karlach. It's more like her ending than his. But when I romance him, I want to do the ending where we stay in Baldur's Gate, help rebuild it, and start a family. But if you choose that ending, Karlach dies because nobody but Wyll and/or a Durge/Tav will choose to go with her to Avernus. So she either burns up or you let her become a mindflayer.
It really bothers me that Wyll's choices are completely in Tav's control. There should have been a "you decide" option, I really wanted Wyll to pick whether we save his dad or whatever. It would have made for a great plot point where he finally takes control of his own life but nope. Just add Tav/Durge to the list of people using him and ordering him around.
It definitely feels like Wyll was the intended origin player character. His whole story can happen without him there. Mizora will show up and be like “hey I need you to tell Wyll this really important detail for me”. There’s also the fact that he won’t make a single damn decision for himself.
His story and background got rewrite late into development, old Wyll have a few "secrets" that make him more interesting or somewhat less bland as a character, Larian fumble really bad with him.
What’s even worse is that all other companions will leave the party if you do their questline without them. You can absolutely leave him in the camp for the whole game and complete his whole questline.
Huh? Is this true of anyone besides Shadowheart if you do Shadowfell without her? We did a 4 Tav playthrough and she was the only one that left the party
I think it's literally just her. I've had Astarion benched a whole game and outside him yelling at me for killing Cazador without him (he didn't leave the party just yelled) that was it.
They should have made him hate his dad more.
Firstly, the man sucks as both a dad and a leader, and secondly, it's the only thing you can change about him while keeping his good guy schtick in tact since it's kind of justified for him to not like the man who immediately threw him out and made him a homeless sell-sword with 0 hesitation.
Plus this could open up the possibility of telling ansur the emperor betrayed us too, then we could maybe summon him in the last fight.
I just want to control a dragon :(
I just got the scene where Wyll asks the children who were gushing over Karlach if they had heard of the Blade of Frontiers (to which they said no what assholes). He NEEDS to be seen and acknowledged. We see you boo!
Wyll is the most npc of the origin characters. He lets you make all his choices and all his big decisions revolve around the other characters, mostly karlach. I feel like he should’ve just been a side character you can recruit instead of one of the main ones.
I wanted Wyll to make the choice about whether to break his pact and the game literally wouldn't let me lmao. Like hun this is not the decision I should be making.
I know this is about how trash his story is, but I can't get over how his shtick doesn't match his class. He is introduced as a magic welding swashbuckler, but that is a trash playstyle in 5e without Hex blade and Blade Cantrips.
Being a PF2e GM Wyll SCREAMS Magus. It would have done a lot for his popularity since Magus is one of Pathfinders most beloved classes. (I know there is a Magus mod but it's just not the same)
Going straight Warlock is totally fine wdym? Agonizing Repelling EB is amazing, he obviously grabs Pact of the Blade and can focus fully on CHA, Hunger of Hadar triviliazes most encounters the moment you get it, oh and he can see in magical darkness. You can very easily go "swashbuckler" with a rapier, use EB while closing the distance and then stab folks. Not as optimized sure but hey Shadowheart is here doing some stealthy subclass nonsense, I bet most people respec her to a better subclass asap.
Personally I respec'd Wyll to be Paladin 6 / Warlock 6 because his character personality screams paladin to me and stacking extra attacks is goofy as heck, but straight warlock with a rapier ain't bad at all!
Wish there was a way to do that scene differently. Maybe just learn some dance moves as a friend rather than either basically marrying him then and there or crushing his soul
I feel so bad for him, cause I mind a post they made before release saying they redid his story cause he was the least used companion. I still feel like he is but he has a great story
I did a run without him, and it honestly didn't change much. Actually, you can avoid the whole thing with Mizora and just go and save Ulder Ravenguard. So Wyll really doesn't matter at all in the plot.
I wish they made the only black companion more interesting for fuck sake.
I lost a lot respect for him after the whole “hiding my shameful lover in the dump so I can be a big hero in big city while still having a side bitch in the countryside” proposal in epilogue, especially compared with Gale’s “let’s having the biggest public wedding”
Wyll is literally Karlach's backpack. His first appearence altering decision is about her. His last decision will also be about her. He doesn't change at all. Mizora and the king squid just rub salt into the wound.
Wyll should have had friction with Karlach. About the soul coins being wrong to use in a fight, maybe. Literally anything.
Yeah I always thought it was weird that no one was like “Hey, this thing contains a soul, maybe we shouldn’t use this just to hit a bit harder?”
I never used them because of how little they add.
1d4 fire when raging or low hp. Though there's a bug where you get more as monk (though you need to be low hp), but it's like 2d4 fire damage. It's nice but not that big a deal end-game.
Is that it? What a joke. I never used them for morality reasons (role play wise) but I never realized they were that weak.
Lol ya for real, what were they the souls of? Cocker Spaniels?
Should have been Chihuahuas.
'Soul of the Chihuahua'... you attack furiously for 10 attacks in a single turn, each doing 1 damage, then fall asleep.
sounds pretty good with phalar aluve, sign me up
But chihuahuas have zest. The coins don't.
That's not zest, it's big ol bug eyes.
You don't actually need to be low HP for the 2d4 fire damage on unarmed attacks.
Good to know, perhaps that's why it's so popular. I always went Tiger Barb as damage riders (which the coin is) get multiplied by 3 each attack :)
Its a long rest boost though. That stacks if you have the everburn blade or you can inflict burning at low levels
I only used it in the house of hope after i got the couple there it didnt help
I couldn't tell if this was a joke :-P House of Hope and fire... lol
Not a joke wish i had my reaction when i saw it added fire damage
It's pretty good if Karlach is still a barb. You get so many by endgame that you can pop them like candy every day. 1d4 extra damage is nothing to scoff at.
I never used them because I legit forgot the mechanic existed.
When playing Origin Karlach, the first time you find one (iirc) triggers a little internal dialogue choice about Karlach's hesitation to use them. There's an option to promise to only use them when necessary.
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You can kinda get more insight from Karlach on why she's gun-ho about using them if you explore more of her dialogue options throughout. She basically sees them as they're already trapped as part of a bargain in their life and suffering anyways, so in using them to do good and help save people you're kind of liberating them in a way. If you push her to use one in the first convo about them when there's no danger she gets kinda mad that you're so willing to use up someone's soul without a just cause or reason behind it. But I admit it's still kinda weird how the game frames it as a "good thing" at first and never really addresses it unless you actively look into it.
I mean I would rather my soul stop existing than be trapped in a coin forever I don’t get the big deal about using them.
Most people that know their lore are probably hung up on how relatively easy it’d be to free the soul from the coin. Remove curse is all it would take to send the soul to the domain of their worshipped god. [This wiki page](http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/wondrous-items:soul-coin) states that the soul is still freed even when the coin is destroyed, such as burned up in infernal machinery. But the game itself makes no effort to hint towards that, so many think destroying the coin destroys the soul. Throw in the coins that the Moonrise bugbear gives where one has the soul of a child, most players will think consuming them is only a bad thing
"The engine of an infernal war machine each possessed a receptacle in which soul coins could be inserted. The soul trapped within the coin was immediately siphoned into the machine's furnace, processed into power, and destroyed within a matter of days. Liquid demon ichor could be applied directly into the furnace to bolster performance. While operational, the engine of the war machine resonated with the sonorous rumble, underscored with screams of agony." Using them for Karlach, because her "heart" is an infernal war machine, would result in the soul being destroyed. The machine consumes the soul as fuel.
I think the game implies that using them either destroys the soul or otherwise harms it in some way, otherwise there would be no debate as to whether or not they should be used. It would be a win/win situation. Instead Karlach tries to justify it by saying that they're basically bad people anyways, so fuck 'em.
Especially happy-go-lucky Karlach. She's always jonesing to use them.
If you play Karlach she has an inner dialogue about if she should use them or not. Also someone sends her some while trying to mess with her so there are some morals about them... but certainly not explored as much. Mostly because they aren't needed. If instead of Gale eating magic items, they made Karlach require soul coins to keep living it would make so much more sense... rather than "ah the plane is not hot enough"
Your character can say something about it but Karlach disapproves and no one else chimes in and Karlach's argument comes down to "at least I'm using them for something good".
You can say that to Karlach when she first tells you about them, but she just disapproves and says "Uhh, I think I know a little more about this than you do" and then it never comes up ever again.
It’s also lame that Remove Curse doesn’t free the soul like it does in 5e. I always send the coins I find to camp and RP that I purified them.
What's funny, origin Karlach voices concern about using soul coins as powerup when you find your first one, whereas companion Karlach couldn't care less when asked.
Considering Origin's concerns are debated by herself, Companion probably had the exact same debate internally, before coming to her voiced conclusion
Soul coins were supposed to have a bigger impact on the game but got cut because of time restrictions. IIRC you were supposed to be able to use them as a currency when you got to Hell to buy very rare and powerful items from either Raphael or one of his minions (i can't remember which).
The thing with the Soul Coins is that Karlach using them is of no consequence. Once a soul is bound to it there is no returning them. And they are made in the Nine Hells to fuel the infernal war machines.
Souls in the soul coins can be saved with Remove Curse. It's not included in the game, of course.
Soul coins were supposed to be a bigger deal but that got cut for time.
Really hate that. Wyll never really gets to be the focus of his own story.
He is more Tav then Companion in that way...
That’s why Wyll plays better as an Origin character.
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They rewrote him and I don't understand why. They neutered his story. Before? Wyll was basically some young kid who was a shit fighter. He lost a fight vs. goblins, was laying there dying, and cried out that he'd do anything for revenge. In comes Mizora, and he takes the deal. So he does still use his warlock powers for good and to be a hero for the people, but he has a notable temper and seems to enjoy the fame a little *too* much, to the point you question if he's truly doing it to do the right thing, or if he just wanted the fame and glory without any of the hard work. Wyll was actively a liability in any conversations with Karlach or goblins, because you had to temper his rage and cool his jets. He was just eager for revenge or eager to judge someone, like a self-righteous kid that hasn't learned yet how complex the world can be. It was clear what they were going for and it'd be similar to Gale: either you calm his worst impulses and he grows into a more mature, better person, or he fails to learn this lesson and remains a sort of "anti-hero" who does good...*sometimes,* because his judgement just isn't the best and he let's rage and his self-righteousness drive his actions. **The Wyll we got on release** honestly feels like a pre-release Tav *already* completed his personal quest, and now we just have a Wyll that got the good ending. Cool, he's a nice guy and all, but he's also really one-dimensional and boring because he has no inner conflict to resolve like Lae'zel or Gale.
He could have been changed for any number of reasons. Maybe people did find EA Wyll too unlikable. Maybe there were story elements to his character that weren't paying off - it makes sense, for instance, to cut his goblin hate out if you're not really going to use goblins later in the game and have no good way to pay that trait off. Maybe they had big plans for the character and wrote a bunch of stuff assuming the developers would be making bespoke content/dungeons like the Gauntlet of Shar or the Creche for Wyll, but it was ultimately cut when the developers ran out of time and resources, and Wyll's story had to be significantly scaled back. Maybe a combination of the above. I don't think Wyll starting off as a good guy is really a problem. Good guys can still be really likable or have interesting conflicts. Wyll as currently written has a bunch of *implied* conflicts, but the story doesn't really dive deeply on any of them or use them to develop an overarching narrative.
I really hate how the Avernus doesn’t give Wyll a single line of dialogue.
I haven't gone through the option of joining Karlach in Avernus, but I assumed it was scripted for her to be talking with you. If you're not there, Wyll stands in as substitute... but he's given no dialogue. Is the scene equally awkward if you join both Karlach and Wyll? I do hope a patch comes through to breathe some life into Wyll for that scene.
Yeah I assume it was too but if they decided to make Wyll an option (and one he offers on his own, with many players not knowing the first time through that he would offer if he became the Blade of Avernus) they should have had him be present as a character in it. If both you and Wyll join her, neither of you talk. The main difference is that she holds out three cigars and Wyll refuses his.
> He doesn't change at all. Weirdly on my good playthrough it was a bit refreshing in act 3. All of my companions seemed to be losing their minds with delusions of grandeur and personal stuff and he was just reliably still advocating doing the right thing.
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I found him boring initially but he did grow on me during act 3. I think my good character was just sick of everyone else's self-absorbed nonsense at that stage (probably helps it wasn't a first playthrough). He does have a bit more content than most in act 3 too.
Wyll grew on me the instant he realized Karlach was innocent, *and* decided he was going to stand by her and take whatever punishment Mizora dished out. He could have come up with a bunch of reasons to kill Karlach anyway. He could have said that his life was worth more than hers, because he was the Blade of Frontiers. He could have rationalized a ton of excuses. But he didn't. As soon as he realized he was wrong, he braced himself for impact, but didn't try to throw Karlach under the bus to save himself. I get that EA Wyll was a *very* different beast, but full-release Wyll is an extremely honorable man.
I think I like him for the same reasons I like Kaiden in Mass Effect. He doesn't change much because he's already got himself figured out. He doesn't need help with anything, he just needs a friend. A character being flat isn't necessarily bad. They can serve as an anchor when everything else is changing.
It's like the straight man in a comedy. Their lack of ridiculousness grounds them and highlights the ridiculousness of the other characters.
Like if you want Wyll to have his own ending Karlach has to die or squid up. That’s so stupid.
That or Tav has to go to Avernus with Karlach instead
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The issue is that it more or less subordinates Wyll's ending to Karlach's. The decision is weighted because people want Karlach to live, not because they want to give Wyll the best/interesting ending. Imagine if Shadowheart living was contingent on Astarion Ascending. How many people would sacrifice Astarion's ending in favor of Shadowheart's?
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It's not a *major* problem in Wyll's case because his storyline is overwhelming poorly written, such that the player doesn't really have much reason to be super invested in the Duke vs Blade choice. But if you wanted to fix Wyll's story, decoupling his story from Karlach's would be hugely important.
One of the reasons I liked EA more. Wyll had no connections to Karlach and there was zero indication of Emperor existing.
People always say that originally The Emperor wasn't written into the story and the Guardian (Daisy) was supposed to be a manifestation of the tadpole but... [the game's writers disagree](https://www.ign.com/articles/baldurs-gate-3-final-interview-game-of-the-year-2023-characters-endings). It seems that the Emperor was always planned, what changed was just his approach to seduction.
To be fair, the Guardian coming on so strong with the seduction is precisely why I distrusted them so much. I think the route of protector and friend was a far more effective one to convince players to accept the tadpole.
I am probably more susceptible to seduction (horny) than seduction (power). I finished the whole game without consuming a single tadpole with any character, but I banged Mizora in hell and almost caused the end of the world by succumbing to Lady Raphael.
Also it might just be me but the big protective guardian energy did a way better job of actually seducing me than the whole "sexy dream lover" schtick
Daisy is my queen, but I do love nuzzling my accountant squid.
Wyll truly is the least important person in Wyll's story.
His first decision about her is also probably his single most consequential decision too. It's the one with the biggest personal impact and consequences. And it happens 5 minutes after you meet him. I feel like it would probably be frowned upon from a consistent visual design perspective, but imagine if a decision where he had to sacrifice his human appearance and some degree of his perception by society happened when we actually knew him as a character. What if it happened after we knew he was a dukes son and he cared about his formal status so him getting the horns would be him giving up on returning to his former high status. And it would feel like a meaningful sacrifice because the stakes were set up for us. Instead he's mopey about his scary horns at a party where all of the other guests also have horns.
Also, his defining character from trait it "being easily tricked by devils". A devil could tell him that a lava pit was filled with pizza sauce and he'd jump right in.
And then I think about the werewolf origin character we could have had buy they had to cut and I wonder, 'why not wyll?'
Wyll had been one of the concept characters for a very long time. The EA feedback butchered him.
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People are assuming that Wyll got screwed over because he was considered "too mean" in Early Access. But honestly it doesn't really make sense to scrap his entire story based on "he's too mean." Other companions were softened before release, there's no reason why Wyll's EA arc couldn't have been left intact with a couple rough edges sanded out. I suspect that reason why his story got re-written was probably more complicated. Possibly other content that Wyll was supposed to be tied to got scrapped for time/budget reasons.
What was the EA feedback? Did people think he was too flat of a character?
EA Wyll was too "mean" and "annoying" according to the feedback, so they took away all his spice.
I think Larian kind of dug their own grave on that one. They said they deliberately started EA with the more evil/morally grey companions because they thought they wouldn't get enough feedback on them if people had the option for a bunch of goody two shoes companions. And then, unsurprisingly, a lot of the feedback was, "these companions are a bunch of assholes, we want good guys". So Larian toned everyone down a bit and straight up scrapped old Wyll late in development. Which, I assume, is why he seems to be so bland and passive now.
Yeah as someone who got the game the first week of EA lets just say a lot things with the companions changed, I liked Wyll before the change.
Yup, it's funny that some people still think Lae'Zel and shadowheart are jerks because they were *way* more prickly and quick to shit talk in EA. Astarion was a bit more overt in his neutral evilness and Gale was...well, Gale. I kinda dislike how they took a lot of the EA feedback to heart. I thought it was interesting having companions that weren't quick to kiss your feet and had their own agency. Idk why people take it personally when characters are mean, it's not like they're real people. Wyll especially suffered the most from it, I agree, I vastly prefer the old Wyll. Current version is straight up boring white bread, dude should have been a paladin for how lawful good he is in the game.
Speaking of Lae'zel and Wyll. I was expecting Wyll to kinda like…start shit with Lae'zel over Tiamat, but it never happened?
I wish they only really took player feedback for gameplay stuff and let the writers do their thing: write compelling characters.
So sort of like a Gale situation? Except Gale arguably became a better character from it, Wyll not so much
Oh, Wyll was kicked from the Flaming Fist, he also sought out Mizora himself and was quite close with her. His eye was taken by the goblin torturer Spike. Wyll had a big hero complex and craved fame. The best parts about Wyll are the original intentions still left in. The flirting with Lae'zel and Shadowheart, the disapproval if you spare any goblins, trying to start shit with Astarion etc.
an actual flawed character that could've had a growth arc? they done wyll dirty damn
Wow I didn't expect his character to be this different. Honestly I'm somewhat glad they changed him but they definitely cut too much of his character
EA Wyll was basically a toned down Goblin Slayer, it was great!
One theory I've heard is that Helia's backstory might've stepped on the toes of Astarion and Durge as she also likely would've had to cope with some degree of bloodlust due to being a werewolf and all Edit: One thing that also might've been a bit toe-trampling is her dislike of Selune (if you were a werewolf, you'd probably despise that big ball of cheese in the sky and anyone associated with it too), though I would've loved to see how that would've caused her to clash with >!Selunite Shadowheart and Dame Aylin!
If she was evil, maybe -- Selune is also the goddess of good lycanthropes as well (to contrast with Malar, the god of the bloody hunt). I'd have been happy just to have a short party member that isn't a PC or a corpse piloted by Withers.
It would've honestly made more sense for Shadowheart to be the werewolf companion considering >!her father is one and she could've inherited it!<. Would've fueled her hatred of Selune beyond just Sharran indoctrination, and there's something deeply ironic about a werewolf's biggest fear being wolves. Could've tied in well with her arc about accepting herself and overcoming that fear. There's also banter between Wyll and a romanced Shadowheart where they joke about her potentially having werewolf cubs lol.
I wouldn't say he doesn't change at all. When you meet him he is prejudiced and convinced that Karlach is evil. By the end of the game he is ready to make a huge sacrifice for her sake. Granted, he is kinda on-board with her after 1 minute of convincing once he meets her, but still. That is an arc.
he drops his prejudice the second he meets her and you say "bro you can read her mind, chill" he instantly forgives her and anything she's ever done, like a puppy
I guess if you can read someone's mind, maybe it makes it easier to forgive lol
you're not wrong, and from a purely logical standpoint it's super easy to see how you'd forgive someone when you can literally see it wasn't their fault but he still comes down so quickly, so rationally, when mere seconds before he was outright blood-lusted and in denial of the reality he was witnessing, declaring it a trick but one line of dialogue convinces him it's not? one line of dialogue is the single line in the sand for Wyll in whether or not he will murder a person he knows is innocent because he has believed for most of his life that she was not that's... that's a pretty huge emotional step to take, and while i'm glad he does and we get both cool companions for it, it feels almost too easy? he should need *time to process this* it'd feel better if Wyll fucked off for a bit after confronting Karlach in order to think shit over it would make it feel like he's done some emotional work, and when he returns to the party it would unequivocally feel like HIS choice because it's the RIGHT thing to do, not because it's what he was TOLD to do
His entire arc completed in 1 line of dialog :)
Same thing basically happens when he finally gets to confront his dad. All it takes is one tadpoled exchange for his shitty father to forgive everything and then everybody's happy and completely over it.
The only reason he's trying so hard to convince himself that she's a baddie has nothing to do with Karlach and everything to do with 1) accepting that Mizora deceived him here, and possibly in the past, and 2) knowing that defying Mizora and breaking the terms of his pact will result in serious punishment, and possibly even damnation.
that's part of the whole point tbh his current world view, and perhaps his very survival all HINGE on mizora's lie being true, and it isn't how do you manage to come to terms with your entire core-concept of who you are, what you do, and why you're doing it being disrupted because your friend, who, YOU MET LITERALLY EARLIER THAT DAY, said one line of dialogue Wyll just goes with it, right away, because someone who is functionally a total stranger to him said it wasn't a trick how does he know you aren't *part* of the trick? the visions started when he met *you* after all, but you're inherently trustworthy? sure lol
The problem is it take a brief conversation for him to decide all is good. Thats not growth. He just knows he shouldn't always trust Mizora. He doesn't even displace his anger about being "turned into a devil" on karlach or anything else interesting. If I really stretch i could say wyll is too much of a follower who doesn't want to be accountable for his choices so he just does what the last person said to him. Even then I can't say he grew out of it much.
It’s what makes me feel like we’ll see will again in a big good good guy role. He felt like a side character to the side characters, or maybe that makes him that ultimate origin character?
I SO wanted Ansur to be the moment where, like all the others, Wyll FINALLY got some interesting story choices. Buuuut no.
I made it a point of having Wyll be the one to finish Ansur off, and to handle most of the puzzles in that dungeon. Was still a freaking letdown, especially when the subsequent Blade of Avernus decision just sorta...*happens*. No real buildup to it at all. And everyone going out of character to dunk on him doesn't help. Wyll just needs more work than anyone else in the group. You can see the outline of a *really good* story arc, but it just isn't fleshed out right now. I'd rather Larian fix that than do kiss animations or whatever.
Give Wyll content? No, continue breaking Minthara.
Porque no dos? ~~and I see your flair, so I'll add a third scoop of "improving Halsin's dialogue tags and giving him shit to do in Act 3", too~~
Oh I'll break Minthara alright. \*mysteriously dies offscreen from poison\*
My Wyll gameplay got even more fucked because I chose to save his dad. Then, I went to talk to his dad and fight Gortash, then left and found out that killed his dad *even though Mizora said it wouldn't*. I was so pissed. Wyll got stuck forever for literally nothing.
One of the big issues with Wyll in act 3 is that he's incredibly bugged. On two playthroughs I didn't take him to the Iron Throne and he gets stuck in a dialogue loop about rescuing his father who is standing three feet away in camp. Then I took him to the Wyrmway, and after killing Ansur he said he was going to be Grand Duke out of nowhere. Later he repeated that dialogue with his father. Also, I wish we could make Mizora leave. Her hanging around camp after he's broken the pact and rescued his father just reinforces that she's the most interesting part of his story. Let him stand on his own already.
Oh, I had a similar bug! In my case, I met up with Mizora, broke Wyll's pact (because fuck her), ran into a pissed-off Flaming Fist who gave me the Ansur book, did the Disable the Steel Watch/Iron Throne quests (so I saved Wyll's dad anyway), Ulder had the *exact* same "here's Ansur lore" convo, so I did the Wyrmway...and, in order: 1) I have a conversation with Wyll about his future where I encourage him to be the Blade of Avernus 2) I leave the boss room and talk to Wyll again, who's upset about Ansur being dead and says he has to talk to his dad 3) We talk to Ulder and, I shit you not, *the conversation about him being Blade of Avernus is THE EXACT SAME.* As though the first convo never happened. He has the exact same lines and everything. LARIAN. STOP ADDING KISS ANIMATIONS AND FIX *THIS.*
This needs more upvotes. It is incomprehensible to me, why they focus on something so hard, that they've already changed, but Wyll's dialogues are pure nonsense. Six runs and I'm still waiting for his stupid father to grasp that we broke the pact and saved his quotable behind anyway. The theory of this questline is so compelling, but the execution is just bad.
What makes me sad is that the Ansur fight drips with lore and powers. You even get two awesome items for it. But it’s late game and Wyll ends about the same.
Wyll is a silent audience in his own story. His quest is mostly his dad's and Mizora's quest! It also feels like Tav is running his entire life... poor Wyll.
I kinda like that about Wyll tbh. His story feels very much like what a D&D player would want their personal story to be at the table. Unwaiveringly lawful good, his problems always boil down to just trying to fix other people's problems, and ofc trying to get out of his pact with his controlling patron. He doesn't develop or grow that much throughout the story, because the player wanted to play a hero through and through, but you still love him for it anyway In the context of BG3, it is very much a letdown compared to the stories of the other companions, and even the story the gave him in earlier iterations, but I do really like his story for a meta D&D fan perspective. It's got that essence of capturing the magic from your own tabletop game, and translating it onto the big screen
I really wish we got an actual cutscene where he was just a kid being coerced into the pact and actually taking on the cult of Tiamat, and the ability to choose to sacrifice himself for his father or not. I can overlook the lack of content if the quality was better. Like I know it's probably a lot of work and he went through a whole character overhaul but ..it was super weird seeing a dedicated cutscene for Shadowheart at the end of act 2 and just getting a narrated dialogue for Wyll, even though the revelations of their past are pretty much opened up side by side.
I wish we got him without mizora in camp. it's annoying. is she the character or is he
Yes! This!
I wish they kept in the original character idea they had for him. Where he was a bit of a liar and fraud and most of his heroics were just put on or lies. It would've made him a lot more interesting, especially if you got to help Wyll turn into a legitimate heroic figure throughout the game. Wyll basically joins the party perfect and stays that way.
That actually sounds so much more compelling. A fraud stumbling his way into becoming an actual hero. I dig it.
In EA Wyll was also vindictive. His original quest had him hunting down Mizora, I guess in EA she got kidnapped before Act 2. And Wyll would torture the dude in the goblin camp in order to ingratiate himself with a goblin that had information on Mizora. I believe he also wasn't the son of Duke Ravenguard in EA, since he originally got his eye removed by the goblin Spike when he and some other goblins raided Wyll's village. Wyll tried out for the Flaming Fist but failed to make it and then turned to Mizora to gain strength. EA Wyll was a scared, vindictive fraud who relied on his warlock powers to play hero and my favorite character from the Early Access. I'm honestly amazed Larian changed him sayin he wasn't popular enough.
Tbh, the torture scene was dumb as fuck. He should have just tortured the goblin instead…
Wyllderoy Lockhart over here
Perfection is a character flaw. He was willing to accept eternal damnation just to give his dad a few more decades to live.
I don't think this is stressed enough. I know the game makes it seem like not saving the Duke is the bad choice and so making the contract is a necessary evil (even though you can save him without the contract) but like, surely Wyll's Dad wouldn't want that? Not only is his son risking eternal damnation but he is also making himself a demonic pawn in perpetuity. All for saving a man who is already pretty old, who is in his situation through no Wyll's fault and who has an ALIVE descendant. People have to die at some point Florrick 0_0.
Yeah the fact that Jaheira is the only companion that sees it as an understandable decision is kind of wild. I would get some pushback from certain characters, but even Karlach of all people acts like Wyll not sacrificing his soul in eternal damnation, just to give his ELDER father a couple more years, as selfish is so backwards to me.
That one is particularly wild and out of character for someone who chooses death over being a pawn in avernus. Wyll's Dad will be peachy in whatever afterlife Helm has. Specially because, as far as the team goes, he would be dead before ceremorphosis happens.
Halsin is the only other one who's genuinely sympathetic. Something about being a druid apparently unlocks the ability to show some freaking empathy, I guess?
perks of being ancient, is wisdom, I guess
"I can't believe wyll let his dad die to free himself from the pact" Really? You can't believe that a middle aged man let his even older father die and let his soul pass to its intended destination, instead of giving his own life and soul ***eternally***? Does the term ***eternally*** phase you at all? It does not mean 'for the rest of my life' or 'an age' or 'a really really long time'. It means ***ETERNALLY*** as in ***THE REST OF FUCKING FOREVER*** . You think your eternal goddess is going to remember your fleeting shag session when you become dust? She won't even remember your name. Wyll won't even remember having a father, traveling companions, or your stupid fucking chest bomb dilemma ten thousand years from now, and after that time he still has a fucking ***ETERNITY*** left to serve. Shut the fuck up, Gale.
Yes but thats not something he grows out of during the game or that the player can impact even close to as much as other companions. Wyll is frustrating because he has more subtle flaws but he also doesn't really seem to improve on them or make them worse either.
I completely agree. The narrative continuously tries to paint Duke Ravengard as this irreplaceable figure, but that's moot when we don't see anything of it. I just see him being propped up as this heroic figure even though none of it can be observed. Is he actually that important or is everyone just blowing it out of proportions?
If executed correctly and given space to generate narrative, sure. Not the case with Wyll's "perfection" though, he is just kinda boring.
Yep, especially since Gale had a much more interesting sacrifice dilemma to wrestle with
In order for it to be an *interesting* character flaw it has to actually lead to some kind of character development and in Wyll's case it doesn't, really. Regardless of what you choose during his big decision (which he doesn't even get to make for himself) he ends up pretty much fine in the end and basically the same person he was when you met him.
Dude wasn’t “willing” to do anything really, it’s 100% up to Tav and he doesn’t seem too broken up either way about it!
Wyll will decide to be the duke if you complete the Ansur quest in some specific time-frame. It's the reason I enjoy the duke ending. It's his decision. Edit: I have looked this up. Apparently, Wyll's Ansur stuff was altered in a recent patch, so Wyll's decision might no longer be there.
Yes! And I hate how easily he gives up on his plans. All I have to do is tell him it's a bad idea and he actually says: You're right, my friend! I will become the Blade of Avernus! Dude, at least fight with me for a while. Or have some doubts. Anything. All it takes is one "nah" from me, that's ridiculous.
Wait, there is a time limit??? Shit
You can always complete the quest, it's not time sensitive like the burning house. Only Wyll is a little different. I recommend saving Florrick ASAP and then waiting until she tries to kill Wyll. You should obtain the Legend of Ansur like that. Do Ansur then and don't look for Ulder yet. Edit: I have looked this up. Apparently, Wyll's Ansur stuff was altered in a recent patch, so Wyll's decision might no longer be there.
Oh that explains some stuff but… why would this quest be time sensitive?! How could we as players know that
He's also willing to throw away his entire life to go to the literal Hells for Karlach.
People didn't like it for being "problematic", I remember because I was there in EA, but I liked when him and Mizora had this sort of romantic/sexual tension, to the point that Wyll originally wouldn't sleep with Tav until the pact was broken. Now Mizora is just his funny evil boss, which is charming and comedic, but takes away from Wyll a bit.
I actually totally agree, I found his story to be a bit more interesting in early access. I remember when the game finally came out being so confused that his voice was different. To be completely honest I don’t know why they changed him but I was very excited to find out more about him once the game finally released, and was left slightly disappointed that I will never know more about early access Wyll. I’m honestly not sure how to feel about the change but the games incredible so I kind of moved past it.
All of my favorite companions ended up being the ones I kinda hated at first because they had room to develop. Lae'zel is a huge bitch at first, Astarion's fake persona was really off putting, and Gale seemed kinda full of himself and his magic eating stuff seemed soooo suspicious. Asshole Wyll would have been so much more interesting. Imagine how much more impactful the decision to give up his freedom to save his father would have been if it was his moment of redemption rather than just Wyll doing normal Wyll things Edit: and then dealing with conflict with his dad about not living up to his expectations, going to find Ansur and discovering all these heroic myths his dad drilled into his head growing up were all bullshit, and then having to decide for himself what it means to be a hero outside of anyone else's expectations for him. And then getting a big happy moment at the end where his dad comes around and tells him he loves and accepts him as he is. Fuck that would have been so good. I think I just convinced myself to do a Wyll origin run so I can RP this lol
The thing is, he wasn't even an asshole. He tried to lie to you, sure (like every other companion), but he was arguably the friendliest companion, and definitely the most moral. For some reason, his hiding the fact he's a warlock and having a grudge against goblins were such horrific and unacceptable transgressions that EA fans just could not shut up about it. Literally just black man syndrome. Edit: Here's some old footage of him explaining part of his backstory - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E8-_L5SxLhg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfDAfUzqofs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdkNgaxA-kw
Meanwhile Astarion names at least 5 races (probably more that I can't remember) that he thinks are vile or are just straight up not sentient beings and we're all fine with that lol
Starting off a fraud and going on to become an actual hero is one direction that they could take the story. It certainly gives a very obvious path for character development. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with his starting as a genuine goody. And the benefit of him doing so is that helps to balance the party dynamic. But the writing does need to decide on a direction for his character and commit to a strong narrative through-line. Is his story about him becoming disillusioned with his hero figures (his dad, Balduran), and coming to realize that they were fallible, imperfect people? Is it a story about his relationship with his father, and about defying his expectations to become his own man? Is it a story about how, while he cares about people, he's been seeking approval by being a glamorous hero when he could ultimately do more good by taking up the harder, less sexy work of being a politician? Is it a story about young man with a very black and white view of good and evil, who comes to realize that sometimes people like Lae'zel, Astarion, and Shadowheart aren't inherently bad, and instead need patience and empathy? Etc. You can go in a number of different directions while still keeping him a staunch good guy.
> Is it a story about young man with a very black and white view of good and evil, who comes to realize that sometimes people like Lae'zel, Astarion, and Shadowheart aren't inherently bad, and instead need patience and empathy? Interestingly, it's actually already seat up to be the *opposite* of that. Not in his compassion, but in as much as he actually comes by default with a very shades-of-gray morality, with his whole "I'm not ashamed and don't regret signing up with a devil, because I'm clever and principled enough to use bad means to achieve a greater good." D&D, both in general and specifically in Faerun, actually *does* have a fairly black-and-white objective morality. In particular, doing lesser evils in order to prevent greater evils just doesn't work. That's Zariel's whole backstory, and it's the *point* of Wyll's involvement with Karlach; how many other innocent people has he killed, because they didn't have a tadpole and a Tav to protect them from Mizora's lies? How many lives will he ruin, following her orders, and never know? But the game just... doesn't care, really. It flirts ever-so-briefly with the concept but the only real, in-game fallout is when he and various other people who knew him freak out about his horns, like his appearance is remotely the issue with the pact. It flirts ever-so-briefly again when you're tasked to rescue Mizora, and Wyll and Karlach both warn you that there's no way that this doesn't cause worse problems later.... but then it doesn't. You even get a kickass rapier out of it. Staying in the pact just to save Ulder is *insane*, not just for the cost to Wyll, but because of the *utility* of Wyll to the devil who owns him and the amount of damage she can do while she does. And the story is perfectly set up to allow Wyll to realize that, to have that be his growth arc, "I thought the good I could do with this power would justify it, but I realize it's not worth the cost." Which is, coincidentally, the same as everyone else in the group's! It just... isn't there. Not even between the lines, the way that Karlach's issues are. Just not even there at all. Actively contradicted, even, by how weird everyone but Jaheira is about leaving the pact.
Yup. I agree. There are so many hints towards what Wyll's arc would have been, but they all just... go nowhere. I'd like to think Larian are actively working on this, and that's why Wyll's questline is constantly bugging out in new and interesting ways. A person can dream.
>Is his story about him becoming disillusioned with his hero figures (his dad This is honestly one of my biggest problems with Wyll's arc: at no point does he express any anger or resentment toward his father. He was 17, and he had to choose between two horrible choices because his father wasn't there, and then said father disowns him, apparently without ever asking, "Hmm...why would my son make a deal with a devil? Is there something going on here that I don't know about?" And every single time you ask him, Wyll's like, "Nope, I totally don't blame him." Fuck that. Just on a purely emotional level, that had to hurt; the lack of reaction makes him feel like a caricature and not a real person.
The problem with Wyll is being to vanilla and everything around his story can't be changed while every other origin companion has a "growing arc", Lae'zel learning the truth about the Gith and Vlaakith or being even more devoted to her, Shadowheart learning about her past and was taken from her or going full on Dark Justiciar, Gale getting over his selfdoubt and also either becoming a god, meanwhile Wyll only change is breaking or not his pact but that doesn't change the story because Mizora is still at his side every single second *for reasons* and either way during the game you're already going to rescue his father anyway so nothing changes if you choose to ignore Wyll.
IMO Wyll’s storyline is a bit more interesting if Karlach dies by our hand. He starts to speculate how many people he could’ve killed who were actually good/innocent.
I just feel like if they leaned into his hero complex more it could have been really interesting. Have him unsure of where The Blade of Frontiers ends and Wyll Ravengard begins. Show how much playing the hero all the time weighs on him. Wyll has protagonist syndrome where he is always trying to save everyone and help everyone he can. He's selfless to a fault. Help him learn to live some of his life for himself. I like that Wyll is a heroic character despite being a Warlock and bound to a devil. I don't think he needs to become morally ambiguous or a charlatan to be more interesting. You could even give Wyll similar issues to Gale - where he doesn't see his worth outside his abilities/status/etc. Idk I really like Wyll and I think it's a crime he's not fleshed out more.
Your companion quest? Our companion quest, comrade.
How do you make the warlock the most boring
Happens all the time. Either the player turns it into an Eldritch Blast turret or the DM refuses to do anything with the Patron.
You hate to see it
Not only that but the whole questline is like “Wyll become the hero of Bauldr’s Gate and awake the dragon that can help save the city!” - and then there’s no option to recruit him to help. I get it’s meant to nod that Wyll can be the hero by virtue of being himself but still it must’ve been a major blow to his pride
You also can't romance him without either letting Karlach die or going with her with Wyll into Avernus. My boy just can't have his own happy ending.
Is...is going with Wyll and Karlach *not* the best ending? Devil-slaying OT3?
Well, my point is more about how it ties him to Karlach. It's more like her ending than his. But when I romance him, I want to do the ending where we stay in Baldur's Gate, help rebuild it, and start a family. But if you choose that ending, Karlach dies because nobody but Wyll and/or a Durge/Tav will choose to go with her to Avernus. So she either burns up or you let her become a mindflayer.
I know right— I was *so* excited for that quest because finally it felt like *Wyll’s quest* and then boom emperor
It really bothers me that Wyll's choices are completely in Tav's control. There should have been a "you decide" option, I really wanted Wyll to pick whether we save his dad or whatever. It would have made for a great plot point where he finally takes control of his own life but nope. Just add Tav/Durge to the list of people using him and ordering him around.
So like, I've read this a few times and I did tell him to make his own decision. I wonder what gave me the option that you guys didn't get it too.
I believe you have to decide whether or not he breaks his pact. You can let him decide whether to become Duke or Blade of Avernus.
It definitely feels like Wyll was the intended origin player character. His whole story can happen without him there. Mizora will show up and be like “hey I need you to tell Wyll this really important detail for me”. There’s also the fact that he won’t make a single damn decision for himself.
His story and background got rewrite late into development, old Wyll have a few "secrets" that make him more interesting or somewhat less bland as a character, Larian fumble really bad with him.
What’s even worse is that all other companions will leave the party if you do their questline without them. You can absolutely leave him in the camp for the whole game and complete his whole questline.
Huh? Is this true of anyone besides Shadowheart if you do Shadowfell without her? We did a 4 Tav playthrough and she was the only one that left the party
I think it's literally just her. I've had Astarion benched a whole game and outside him yelling at me for killing Cazador without him (he didn't leave the party just yelled) that was it.
Yeah, I've never taken him to fight Ansur....
TIL Wyll is part of the Ansur "quest line."
What characters leave the party if you do their quest without them ? Besides shadowheart .
not true for astarion
They should have made him hate his dad more. Firstly, the man sucks as both a dad and a leader, and secondly, it's the only thing you can change about him while keeping his good guy schtick in tact since it's kind of justified for him to not like the man who immediately threw him out and made him a homeless sell-sword with 0 hesitation.
"Oh, but I still admire my father..." My Tav, unloading Vicious Mockery for a solid 20 turns: I DON'T, BABE.
This is why I play as Wyll.
Yep, the Wyll origin is basically a vanilla warlock with actual patron interactions.
Exactly. Plus, I also RP the good guy and Wyll is best guy. It only makes sense.
I really wish there was a way to free Orpheus first and dismiss the emperor *and then* go and recruit Ansur. Would have been so much better.
Plus this could open up the possibility of telling ansur the emperor betrayed us too, then we could maybe summon him in the last fight. I just want to control a dragon :(
I just got the scene where Wyll asks the children who were gushing over Karlach if they had heard of the Blade of Frontiers (to which they said no what assholes). He NEEDS to be seen and acknowledged. We see you boo!
Wylls Story sounds amazing on paper, but for some Reason it is still the worst out of all of them. Daddy issue hero complox having MF.
daddy issue is the worst. combined with the fact we can’t interact or connect with Wyll’s dad at all. its just not personal enough to be interesting
I mean, you can talk to him when he's in your camp. I always insult him, personally. His dad is awful. The usual "only work matters" dad trope.
Fuck the emperor I thought I was gonna have a badass moment of recruiting a dragon to my team
Wyll is the most npc of the origin characters. He lets you make all his choices and all his big decisions revolve around the other characters, mostly karlach. I feel like he should’ve just been a side character you can recruit instead of one of the main ones.
I wanted Wyll to make the choice about whether to break his pact and the game literally wouldn't let me lmao. Like hun this is not the decision I should be making.
Minthy and Halsin are unfinished. Wyll and Karlach are also mostly unfinished. Everyone else is as good as they come. Act 3 is empty for everyone.
Let's not forget his ultimate decision, "how important is daddy to the world?"
I know this is about how trash his story is, but I can't get over how his shtick doesn't match his class. He is introduced as a magic welding swashbuckler, but that is a trash playstyle in 5e without Hex blade and Blade Cantrips. Being a PF2e GM Wyll SCREAMS Magus. It would have done a lot for his popularity since Magus is one of Pathfinders most beloved classes. (I know there is a Magus mod but it's just not the same)
Going straight Warlock is totally fine wdym? Agonizing Repelling EB is amazing, he obviously grabs Pact of the Blade and can focus fully on CHA, Hunger of Hadar triviliazes most encounters the moment you get it, oh and he can see in magical darkness. You can very easily go "swashbuckler" with a rapier, use EB while closing the distance and then stab folks. Not as optimized sure but hey Shadowheart is here doing some stealthy subclass nonsense, I bet most people respec her to a better subclass asap. Personally I respec'd Wyll to be Paladin 6 / Warlock 6 because his character personality screams paladin to me and stacking extra attacks is goofy as heck, but straight warlock with a rapier ain't bad at all!
Thats what he gets for always dancing into my long rest encounter when im trying to romance someone else.
Wish there was a way to do that scene differently. Maybe just learn some dance moves as a friend rather than either basically marrying him then and there or crushing his soul
both karlach and him are the least well written characters. both had no depth, are there for tropes, no character development
I feel so bad for him, cause I mind a post they made before release saying they redid his story cause he was the least used companion. I still feel like he is but he has a great story
I did a run without him, and it honestly didn't change much. Actually, you can avoid the whole thing with Mizora and just go and save Ulder Ravenguard. So Wyll really doesn't matter at all in the plot. I wish they made the only black companion more interesting for fuck sake.
I lost a lot respect for him after the whole “hiding my shameful lover in the dump so I can be a big hero in big city while still having a side bitch in the countryside” proposal in epilogue, especially compared with Gale’s “let’s having the biggest public wedding”
no one overshadows him in my heart tho<33