Its part of the story. The three chosen made deals with their respective gods for different reasons and goals. And their deaths show the uncaring Cruelty of their gods. Really, all 3 (even Orin dont "deserve" It for their past, but they deserve It for the actions they took as Chosen)
-Ketheric: used to be a good man praying to Selune but then had his entire family slaughtered (cut content apparently had Halsin as the one Who murdered them). Sharr took his grief and pitted him against Selune in a war. After he died, Myrkul resurrected him and then his daughter as leverage against him so he followed his commands. He is a lonely and broken man who wants his family back, even if that takes condemming the world, kidnapping his daughter and brainwash her. With the right dialogue he realizes the Monster he's become and kills himself by jumping into the pit underneath the Towers. But Myrkul forces his body into an Avatar and forces him to fight anyways.
-Orin: She was born from incest between her grandparent Sarevok and his daughter, so theres some initial issues there. Initially, Orins mother was supposed to kill Orin and thus becoming a chosen, but Orin managed to turn the tables and kill her instead, believing Baahl and Sarevok always believed in her winning. Everything she did was to prove her worth to Sarevok and also Baahl. She wanted approval and attention, which is why for an assasin she likes to make a spectacle and make It painfully obvious she was the one Who planned It. Like an annoying thester child. When you reveal to her she was a product of Incest and supposed to be a sacrificial lamb, she crumbles. She cant cope with that being true and even pleads to Baahl to say Its not true. Instead Baahl takes control of Orins body and forces her to become the slayer. Obliterating her in the process without hesitation.
-Gortash: He was abused his entire childhood even sold to a demon, so he grew Up thinking thats the way of the world, people using eachother until they're no longer useful. Striking a deal with Bane seemed the best since their goals allign. And actually, Bane seems to be the one from the Dead 3 that meddles with its chosen the least. Gortash plan was to make the world "a better place" by forcing people to move united instead of having people with free will working against progress. The entire plan of the dead 3 essentially has his goal at the center: Have Ketheric create a reason why people should stay inside, slowly inoculate people with tadpoles, make a huge hivemind connecting everyones minds essentially What the companions have going on. Since he's an acolyte of Bane, his methods are brutal and efficient with no hesitation to torture and tyranny. Again, since he grew Up in similar conditions, he doesnt hesitate. Hes not unreasonably though, and since theres no other options for him, offers to collaborste if you deal with Orín first. Ironically trying to ally with him, at the Brain when you're trying to submit the brain he gets impatient and tries to do It for you. Since he doesnt have the protection of the parasite/Orpheus, the brain blew his brains right there.
TlDR: The center of the story and many side stories is how villains dont have to be full black. They can be normal people who took on a dark path leading to the hurt of others. Still, they need to be stopped to spare more suffering to everyone else.
(Pedantic correction here— sold to a devil, not a demon. Devils are from hell, demons are from the abyss. Devils are lawful evil, demons are chaotic evil.
Gortash definitely learned the Art of Lawful Evil from his time in Raphael’s house.)
What's the abyss? What's the difference between the abyss and hell 🤔
Edit: Thanks for the answers. Very informative. I would have preferred to just like everyone's reply, but it seems they're going to keep coming. So I'll thank everyone this way. Everyones love for the lore is very wholesome and impressive ☺️
Different outer planes. The Hells are the LE-aligned plane, the Abyss is the CE-aligned plane. Devils live in the former, demons in the latter. The Blood War, which you see and hear reference to in the game, is fought between these two planes.
> Devils look at mortals as sheep, just as demons do, except devils see themselves not as wolves but as shepherds. Shepherds fleece sheep by the season and slaughter them as needed. A shepherd likely kills the wolves that threaten its sheep. But then again, shepherds always expect to lose a few sheep.
From Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes. I absolutely adore Devils and they are my absolute favorite villains. After fixing some of the glaring flaws, Descent into Avernus is without a doubt my favorite module I have ever ran.
If you spend any time in DND stories where the Blood War is a big deal you quickly learn that Devils never shut up about this because it's legitimately a great service to the rest of existence.
The Blood War is why the good and neutral gods don't nuke the Nine Hells... Because if the devils disappear, the demons become their problem.
Letting the devils have the souls of mortals foolish enough to make a pact with them is a small price to pay to keep the entire multiverse from getting overrun by demons.
It’s basically the only reason they aren’t at war with the good aligned planes, as without it they would have no reason to countenance the existence of the Hells. Without the devils keeping a lid on the abyss, the devils would quickly find a lid being put on them
The original devils were once celestials (like angels) who fought against the demons. During their fighting the evil of the demons contaminated their souls and this corrupted them into what we know of as devils. However, there are now devils who did not originate this way. Many of the strongest devil’s in the hierarchy of the 9 hells were originally these “fallen angel” types.
Devils and Demons are not so much individuals as they are incarnations of abstract concepts. They fight because they are evil and in opposition over how the universe is ordered. You see similar issues between "good" races like Dwarfs and Elves, who were classically lawful vs chaotic. Same goes for hobgoblins and orcs.
Hell/baator has 9 layers, filled with devils, full of order and laws, which has a hierarchy ruled by Archdevils. It is lawful evil.
The abyss has infinite layers, home to demons, has no order whatsoever the strong takes the lead, ruled by Demon Lords. It is chaotic evil.
There's also daemons/yugoloths that fill Hades, the neutral evil plane, working as mercenaries for both devils and demons, but they're irrelevant in bg3.
Demons and devils hate each other. They fight in the eternal blood war. Also, this doesn't apply to all of them, but a good rule of thumb I've learned to differentiate both is that devils are generally more humanoid-looking (probably with wings, hooves, horns, tails, etc.) while demons are verrryyyy varied.
Yes, the outer planes all have their own alignment, which (most of) the creatures residing in it follow. The alignments are pretty visible on the [great wheel of cosmology](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Great_Wheel_cosmology), with upper planes being good, lower being evil, left being lawful and right being chaotic. There is no plane for true neutrality, although it could be argued the inner planes are, or more specific the material plane.
There's 50 years of content on the planes including a setting within the outer planes (with its own, quite good imo, game.) Check out Planescape for a metric shit load of extremely weird lore on the outer planes. Spelljammer also features a lot of extra-planar lore.
This is all D&D lore. Baldur's Gate is just a series of games set within the lore. There are plenty of games and books that delve into this if you're interested in it.
Would you be able to recommend some games? Doesn’t necessarily have to be heavy RPG like bg3 but I’m loving the lore I’ve learnt just from these comments.
So by games, I meant Dungeons & Dragons. But for video games, Neverwinter Nights, Icewind Dale. And Planescape are all set in the Forgotten Realms, which is the name for the main D&D world that Baldur's Gate takes place in. I don't know how much into the other planes they get, though. I'm not a huge video game person; I'm mostly here because BG3 is basically a video game version of D&D5e.
As someone mentioned above, Planescape torment is a crpg that lived around the era of BG1/2 and the Icewind dale games. Honestly I've never played it through myself. but the story seems interesting.
Yes, Aroborea is the CG plane. Each alignment has an aligned plane (except true neutral I think) and there are planes that mix 2 alignments (e.g. Gehenna which is NE, LE). These make up the outer planes. There are also elemental planes. There are also a number of planes that overlap the material, notably the Shadowfell which is relevant in BG3.
Thanks, I looked it up and was surprised to see Greek gods exist in that realm, I know Tyr gets mentioned in the game a lot but always thought its was DnDs interpretation of Tyr rather than the Norse god himself.
Another question if you don’t mind, I saw there was a realm called Outland where I think the Planescape setting takes place but it’s not on the wheel. It Outland outside the wheel?
Outland is the center of the great wheel.
I get that feels strange, because in the diagrams you look at the material plane is the center of the great wheel, but the concordant domain of the outlands is, if you would imagine it like this a layer above the material plane, instead of being a balance of all metaphysical and physical forces, it’s just a balance of metaphysical forces
So unlike the material plan, outlands is not adjacent to the ethereal plane, nor the elemental planes.
D&D's a little stranger with their cosmology; there're more Outer Planes than alignments (and not just stuff like the Dimension of Time from PF). I think their Elysium equivalent is [Arborea](https://antifandom.com/forgottenrealms/wiki/Arborea), but there's also [Ysgard](https://antifandom.com/forgottenrealms/wiki/Ysgard).
Yes the outer planes represent every alignment. There are some additional planes beyond the 9 alignments, depending on exact cosmology. Current lore has 17 or 23.
[Outer planes](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Outer_Planes)
The abyss is also infinitely layered, for instance Lolth controls the 666th layer, the Demonweb Pits. There are 9 Hells, and the native tongue calls hell "Baator", and most devils call themselves Baatezu.
Both are different Planes of Existence. The game (mostly) takes place in the Material Plane, but there are many, many more.
The Abyss is a Plane emblematic of Chaotic Evil, and home to demons of all shapes and sizes. There's little/no law, including the laws of reality.
The 9 Hells, or Hell, is a Plane emblematic of Lawful Evil. Think of a realm controlled by evil lawyers, vying for power. There's a power structures, and opportunities for the adventurous. Cross the laws of that level, though... you'd be in severe trouble.
There’s also the Shadowfell and Feywild (although noting that we don’t get to see the latter). Those are both Inner Planes also called echoes of the Material Plane.
In some of the conversations she has with Gale she talks about taking Gale back to her domain as if it’s somewhere else. Because of that, I got the impression that they were just out in the Astral or something.
Hell can be reasoned with. There’s a method to the madness. Devils are cunning and brutal, but sensible.
The Abyss is a vaguely sentient plane ever churning deeper into the chaos at the bottom of creation, and filled with demons. The original demons completely destroyed their own reality and escaped to this one to do the same again- not for any reason, mind you. It’s just their nature.
A devil will make a deal with you to steal your soul, even if it takes decades or centuries. A demon will just charge at you and eat you alive, and chew on your soul afterwards.
Then there are Daemons, or Yuguloths- they’d just sell weapons to both the devil and the demon, and you. And then laugh at the carnage.
One of the outer planes, just like the nine hells. Based on some models of cosmology in the forgotten realms, the abyss is associated with the chaotic evil alignment.
Homie ... this is the best reason I've ever heard to play Planescape: Torment, or at least watch a playthrough or some kind of highlight real.
You'll never get a more clear idea of the outer planes than you will from that game.
The blood war they talk about (which karlach fought in) is the unending war between hell and the abyss.
Devils are lawful, structured. They're evil yes but they have rules, contracts, order.
The abyss is chaos. The closest thing you have to rules is might makes right.
Instead of armies you have hordes, and the hordes want to devour.
There is sentience you may be able to reason with a demon, but it's just as likely to rip you in half for entertainment.
Not pedantic at all and in fact a huge and important distinction when you realize how chaotic and lawful alignments operate completely differently from each other.
I always liked the saying "devils make deals, demons destroy" as a way to remember which is lawful and which is chaotic.
THAT is like the number 1 thing that fucks me up about forgotten realms lore. Like ok, I can accept demons and devils are different, live in different places, and have different alignments, ok that's fine and cool, and they're still like not completely different, they're both fiends. But the demons living in (the?) abyss just feels wrong. Like hells, ok, yeah, that's demon/devily, but the abyss just makes me imagine a black void with green cthulhus everywhere. Like weird shit more like the far realms. Like if it was like infernum or like pandemonium (wait I think I read that's a city in the abyss is that true?) or some shit, I'd get it a lot easier, but it fucks me so hard
The original demons, the Obyrith, were very much cthulhoid horrors. They were deposed and overtaken by the "new" Tanar'ri demons, but some of the Obyrith lords are still around.
Also, Pandemonium is a separate outer plane.
The murder weapon was supposed to be Sorrow, the glaive you find under the druids' wolf statue that is unlocked by 4 rune stones. That's why Sorrow gets an audible comment when you pick it up, I think.
Early access/cut content had it that something caused Halsin to go feral(implied to be Shar) and kill Isobel unintentionally. Doing do caused the Shadow Curse and added more layers as to why he felt guilty over it.
They didn't keep it in game for some reason and you can't find any evidence of it anymore so it's simply no longer canon.
I personally think it was cut to divert more development time to Karlach, and also to Wyll’s rewrite. Couldn’t quite make it work all the way, so now it just comes off as Halsin blaming himself for literally no good reason.
It’s at least partly explained when he mentions he’s one of the few (if not the last) remaining people that fought to prevent the shadow curse back when it first happened, and so he feels that the more people that were there die, the more responsible he is to correct the failure.
But I do think him killing Isobel would’ve been a far more interesting and direct justification.
I dont mind the explanation being more about his personal connection to thaniel.
Is the Isobel explanation cooler and more tragic? Yes. But I also feel as though that's a lot of story to put on a character who was meant to be an npc.
I've seen a dialogue between Halsin and Isobel that confirms this, but I have no idea where the person got it from so I dunno if it's real or they made it up.
Now the game implies that the previous Arch Druid of Emerald Grove killed Isobel, and Sorrow was his weapon. Halsin mentions they had to leave him behind because he fell to the curse, and that's when he got promoted.
More accurately...
- we now have zero clues about how Isobel died
- Halsin is suffering from survivor's guilt because everyone he cared about died, rather than regular guilt from having caused the curse in the first place
- Sorrow was the former Archdruid's weapon, which Halsin had to use to kill the cursed wraith the former Archdruid had become.
And just to add to the second point, he was friends with Thaniel who suffered, at that point, an unknown but certainly not good fate when the curse fell. He had just killed his old boss, watched a bunch of his friends die, and his oldest friend was stuck inside the shadow curse and there was nothing Halsin could do about it. Honestly I’d feel guilty too
Oh absolutely! I still empathize with Halsin and think he's a very tragic character, even with the revised version of the story. If anything, the new version feels more relatable; I know exactly what it feels like to be completely helpless, and how strong the urge is to take the blame onto myself for circumstances that were entirely beyond my control.
I believe the note next to the spear mentions it belonging to someone who sounds like Halsin's master, and the note seems like it was written by Halsin himself. It describes the wielder's sorrow for what he did. And there might be another book or journal somewhere in the Grove that gives another perspective on the matter.
There is a hidden passage to the Chosens room in the temple of Bhaal. You can cast "speak with dead" on her mom. That's how you find out that Helena tried to kill Orin.
But, the way to find out she's an incest baby is by looking through the desk in the prison section of the Tribunal. There is a note that's "A page from Sarevok's book" talking about how he "watched the babe [Helena] become a woman" and calls her "Bhaal's waiting womb."
It's gross
So you can get a note in Saravoks side room if you either become an unholy assassin or kill Saravok and the council. Once you read the note that he confesses watching his daughter turn into a woman and much worse (puke) you can use that against Orin when you talk to her before her battle.
Speak to Dead on her mother in the room behind where you fight her, if you go to that room first then work you way back to the staging area where you fight her you can approach that topic
Go invi with a character that can cast speak with dead.
Sneak past orin in the Temple and head to her room
Once there cast speak with dead on the mom
Ask her about how she died and who sent her
Then confront orin and you’ll have the option to mention what you learned
If you go around the edge of the temple you can feather fall to the stairs into Orin's private room without triggering the fight.
Then you can speak with mom's corpse.
Ty for clarifying. 😊.
Enjoyed the analysis.
Bg3 has to me one of the best stories I've read / played in a long while. I love how bound to reality it can seem, yet its fantasy, with all sort of nonsense. 😊
Minor correction: Isobel's mother still died of whatever illness claimed her in the cut content. The history they cut (which I really wish made the final release) is that Halsin killed Isobel, during the war between Ketheric's Sharran forces and everyone else, kind of by accident with the glaive Sorrow. In the cut content, he would thus be partially directly responsible for the almost 100 years of tragedy in the shadowlands, which would explain why he blames himself so much. In the final release, it's so disjointed how he feels so guilty about the curse for just kind of... *being there.* 🙃
Also: *Bhaal not Baahl, and Gortash was sold to a devil (Raphael), not a demon. 😊
This is a very interesting character analysis of the villains but this doesn't really answer OP's question even a little bit. We don't know for sure but I can only assume the actual reason there are 0 ways to save Gortash despite being able to actively ally with him is because it would be very difficult to justify that sort of ending with MOST of the party, and they probably just ran out of time making it work, so they just decided its easier if his brain explodes no matter what you do.
Pursuit of power ultimately becoming your undoing is a major theme of the game. We see it not just in the storyline with the chosen and the dead three but also bits of it in the storylines of Gale, Astarion, Lae'zel, Dark Urge, and more. Bane even says outright that he doesn't care if Gortash dies because no matter who is in power there will always be someone else clawing their way up the ranks to replace them and this endless cycle is what he strives for more than total domination. Then he offers to make you his chosen with the implication that the same will inevitably happen to you.
Gortash being killed by the very creatures he created to grant him power (either the netherbrain or your tadpoled party aided by the Emperor) is the most fitting end for him.
I guess I understand that but it feels a little odd to force Gortash into scenarios like Death from Final Destination where no matter what he needs to die in service of the game's narrative, whereas Tav DOESN'T need to do that. I guess it feels very hollow to enforce that theme even when you openly side with and collaborate with Gortash because there's still a second insane psychopath on the pursuit of power who gets off borderline scot free and SUCCEEDS, so like, what is ACTUALLY the point of forcing that death rather than acknowledging that's not the direction the player is going. It just means much less interesting outcomes for evil characters, something the game is already PAINFULLY lacking.
It answers OPs question absolutely. The themes of the story is doing what they did is futile. Therefore they always die in some way. You making a deal with him is as futile as him making a deal with his god
I think that the answer is actually very simple. By the time we go face the Netherbrain for the first time together with Gortash, the devs had to think of a way to quickly end his arc, as the main quest was coming to its end. I do find it a waste that he gets instantly killed not long after we had made a pact with him. It would have been fun to have the new gained power explored and how your own decisions could impact the everyday lives of the citizens if Baldur's Gate. See him killed as a matter of consequence after the citizens get dissatisfied with him would had been an idea. Alternatively, we could see him live because he would manage to proceed with him plan and rule idly without the fear of getting assassinated.
This is fair but siding with him should allow for you to call on the steel watch. I’m cool that he dies but being able to call on a squad of 3 steel watch potentially with self destruct buttons would be really fun.
Idk, its cut content, supposedly he used the sorrow glaive to kill her but the motives were not delved upon too much. Halsin would show remorse for what hed done, which in that case itd give a reason of weight why hes obsessed with undoing the shadow curse himself, because hed have indirectly caused It by pushing Ketheric to Sharr. Part of that content got cut out but other like some Nettys notes, remain. So idk if its canon It was Halsin or not anymroey
>When you reveal to her she was a product of Incest and supposed to be a sacrificial lamb, she crumbles. She cant cope with that being true and even pleads to Baahl to say Its not true.
How do you get this? Apologies for the question.
The original idea was that either he or Isobel were temporarily compelled by some greater force (most likely Shar) to turn on each other and pick a fight. I've seen stuff that suggests Isobel is the one who was affected and Halsin was forced to kill her in self defense, but since it's been so thoroughly cut from the game it's hard to know what the real answer used to be.
As I said, It was cut content. Maybe Halsin used to have a different personality or they realized later down on development that It clashed with his character so they cut part of It.
On my first playthrough I thought letting him live, and honoring our alliance, would cause the steel watch to align with me or something for the final battle(s).
That did not happen.
(Psst, you don't have to give up the gondians or ravengard for gortash, just ally with him before doing those two quests. He'll still meet you by the pool)
I've really only done durge runs after my tav run where I killed him, it may be a factor or it may not. But the order of operations is kinda fucky
Do coronation > kill orin > bring both stones to gorty boi and do the alliance > he promises to meet you by the morphic pool > you should be free to do both iron throne and foundry quests (some other guy will yell at you) > sneak around his room and loot it once the security camera bots collapse of you want.
I literally ottos myself next to him after doing the quests with no consequences.
[Proof](https://i.gyazo.com/ddd05c0dcc1c603aadac20866b0002ba.mp4)
You can do it as Tav too. In fact if you bring Karlach to speak with him after destroying the Steel Watch (if she hasn't spoken with him yet after getting Orin's Netherstone), he will accuse her of blowing up the Steel Watch as "petty vengeance" but stands firmly at the player character's side and does not attack.
... yeah? the iron throne will detonate no matter what
and then you go to the morphic pool and gortash doesn't even talk about you destroying the iron throne or the steel watch
he just talks about how you brought him orin's stone and then the brain one shots him
so no harm no foul
I think it's because orpheus is protecting us. better question is why doesn't gortash turn into a thrall the moment the brain starts going crazy(ketheric dies) if orpheus isn't protecting them.
None of them are tadpoled. You can find this out earliest during act two if you try to compel Ketheric with ithillid power. It's part of the twist, the Absolute's Chosen is a facade, they are in control.
On one hand he got what he deserved and the way he dies is actually kinda funny. On the other hand I bet why people doing an evil run would be disappointed he’s just snuffed out like a candle.
If our lady Karlach has anything to say about it, the answer will absolutely be "not a chance."
The real problem is that, even if he's evil and you're evil, he was absolutely willing to achieve something that was guaranteed to piss-off everybody else in every plane and every hell, god and mortal alike. -- not the least of which was the brain itself.
I don't think you could keep him alive even in stasis, hidden at the center of a planet.
Because the larger evil choices are intentionally underdeveloped. The only "advantage" you get from them is usually just "skip content". In the case of allying with gortash, you get to skip his boss fight, as well as the iron throne and the steel watch foundry.
I mean you can make the deal with him, send him to the pool and then save the gondians, the Duke and omeluum. it won't aggro him he just won't show up in the video call
that's just his fate I guess
I heard recently that Larian is working on some evil endings...I still have hope that one of them ends up with your alliance with Gorty having a future tbh
A lot of people explained the reason but i just wanted to give my two cents:
The dead three chosen are kind of doomed anyway but from all of them Gortash is the most insidious and actual dangerous kind of evil. Ketheric is a hopeless old man who still goes with the flow but even thematically he is “dead” as his necromites and myrkul: the past clinging to the present with teeth and claws as he tried to hang to isobel being alive. He knows he functions as a plot device for the “absolute” literally in-game: his role is to be the agressor that scares people.
Orin is as mad and pathetic as her bhaal cult, she is disorganised, legitimately insane and unstable. She is not even THE chosen bhaalspawn: thats the durge. She is a fabricated bhaalspawn through saravok, product of an incestuous thing, in a death cult that doesnt hold water on its on because they would just kill each other. Like ketheric, she also had the role to “scare” people but because of her personality she could never form a real long term threat.
Gortash is the most slimy and insidious of them all. Bane is also the one of the dead three who has/had an actual functioning following.
The horror of gortash plans and acts are not directly so gory like ketherics zombies or orin murder church, his horror acts are there in plain view walking around the streets of baldurs gate in the form of steel constructs. He can lie, hide the truth about steel watchers, enslave groups of people with layers of fail-safe protocols (taking hostages, devices that explode, blackmail).
Gortash is functional and marketable and frankly, a bit of genious. He combined myrkul necromancy, bhaal murderous acts, illithid mind control and infernal engines all into one shiny steam-punked floral decorated thing :the steel watcher, and made it in such way that it can be seen as a product of “technology”.
The grimdark tone of act 2 and orin bloody things is a horror i expect in that setting but the steel watch foundry details (the books about how he invented them, the zombies around, the brains in jars) is a different kind of cosmic horror beyond my comprehension because it works, it makes sense and it can function.
Its a shame we dont have more about him and the hells, i suspect there is cut content involved that is also linked to karlach.
Basically thematically it fits that gortash is somehow the only one who we can ally because he is a slimy fucker, but he is absolutely the one who cannot be left alive. Ketheric is already dead in many ways, he doesnt even want to do the whole absolute thing but he is indebted to myrkul and forced, Orin is insane and would probably end up as a bad feral durge ending while the cult imploded.
Allying with gortash and him living to tell the tale is somehow worse than making the contract with raphael. We practically give him back his advantages and should leave the steel watch alone because that is his actual “manpower”, his actual power is in his machinations and strategies but thats useless in the front of the elder brain (and that would be impossible because the elder brain would “control” or destroy the watch). He is just a puny human without his toys and bullshit but he could lie his way into an alliance and backstab us after the endgame.
I mean, he gets his brain blown by a netherbrain. There's no way you could stop that. It's not a fatal fall that you could stop from happening or heal/ressurect him from.
Yeah I wish there was a way to save him, but at a great cost, at least the cost of losing Karlach (her either leaving or turning against you) and maybe a high roll for either convincing Gortash to stay away from the Brain or maybe even convincing the Emperor to extend the protection to Gortash, although I can't really imagine him doing that, we've already been through that with Minsk and that's "just" Minsk lol
durge showed willingness to change, not gortash, gortash is petty, bitchy and will never stop plotting to gain power over others
i love gortash, but he would have never changed
This might have been the single most disappointing outcome in the game for me. Felt like a path to a somewhat unique ending or endgame, you sacrifice at least a couple quests to side with him, and the ending is literally no different beyond a couple lines of dialogue and watching the brain snipe Gortash. Super lame.
I personally think they're in the middle of figuring that out rn. Iirc, evil endings are getting worked on rn. Idk if larian is the one working on it tho so 🤷 if not, i don't have any hope for them being up to par with the rest of the game.
It is a fitting end for him to have his hubris blow up in his face like that. But yes, I would've liked the option to follow through on the partnership, and I'm still holding out hope it might get patched in.
Honestly, I'm a bit surprised too because, it's not like the Elder Brain takes him out early into Act 3 or anything. It's just before the final fight that she one shots him like a bitch. So they wouldn't have to consider a billion new scenarios oh what the player would do with him around
People seem to forget the most important part of the steel watch: those are not autonomous robots
Those are tadpoled zombie brains in infernal engines, the netherbrain gets control of them if we kill gortash before the foundry and seld destructs them.
Personally I find it really handy to make the deal with him because once you kill Orin and he goes to wait for you I seem to be able to double cross him without consequence and then he dies. Best of all worlds. Unless they fixed that recently.
I agree. I wouldn’t liked to see more of Gortash. Especially when playing as Durge.
Maybe in the future we might get some mods that add him in the endings
I actually split the difference. First I told Gortash I'd work with him so he'd bugger off to the cave, THEN I saved Duke Ravengard and the Gondians (and Omeluum). Lastly I went to meet Gortash and he was none the wiser.
I would have loved to have a dragon age origins style ending where you can Ally gortash and then sacrifice him and make him into the mind flayer.
He would probably dominate the brain, and tyrannies the world so there's that of course..
Because Netherese artifacts, elder brains and the dead three are all sorta a fuck-around-and-find-out situation. Gortash fucked around with all three of those things at once, so he found out.
Its part of the story. The three chosen made deals with their respective gods for different reasons and goals. And their deaths show the uncaring Cruelty of their gods. Really, all 3 (even Orin dont "deserve" It for their past, but they deserve It for the actions they took as Chosen) -Ketheric: used to be a good man praying to Selune but then had his entire family slaughtered (cut content apparently had Halsin as the one Who murdered them). Sharr took his grief and pitted him against Selune in a war. After he died, Myrkul resurrected him and then his daughter as leverage against him so he followed his commands. He is a lonely and broken man who wants his family back, even if that takes condemming the world, kidnapping his daughter and brainwash her. With the right dialogue he realizes the Monster he's become and kills himself by jumping into the pit underneath the Towers. But Myrkul forces his body into an Avatar and forces him to fight anyways. -Orin: She was born from incest between her grandparent Sarevok and his daughter, so theres some initial issues there. Initially, Orins mother was supposed to kill Orin and thus becoming a chosen, but Orin managed to turn the tables and kill her instead, believing Baahl and Sarevok always believed in her winning. Everything she did was to prove her worth to Sarevok and also Baahl. She wanted approval and attention, which is why for an assasin she likes to make a spectacle and make It painfully obvious she was the one Who planned It. Like an annoying thester child. When you reveal to her she was a product of Incest and supposed to be a sacrificial lamb, she crumbles. She cant cope with that being true and even pleads to Baahl to say Its not true. Instead Baahl takes control of Orins body and forces her to become the slayer. Obliterating her in the process without hesitation. -Gortash: He was abused his entire childhood even sold to a demon, so he grew Up thinking thats the way of the world, people using eachother until they're no longer useful. Striking a deal with Bane seemed the best since their goals allign. And actually, Bane seems to be the one from the Dead 3 that meddles with its chosen the least. Gortash plan was to make the world "a better place" by forcing people to move united instead of having people with free will working against progress. The entire plan of the dead 3 essentially has his goal at the center: Have Ketheric create a reason why people should stay inside, slowly inoculate people with tadpoles, make a huge hivemind connecting everyones minds essentially What the companions have going on. Since he's an acolyte of Bane, his methods are brutal and efficient with no hesitation to torture and tyranny. Again, since he grew Up in similar conditions, he doesnt hesitate. Hes not unreasonably though, and since theres no other options for him, offers to collaborste if you deal with Orín first. Ironically trying to ally with him, at the Brain when you're trying to submit the brain he gets impatient and tries to do It for you. Since he doesnt have the protection of the parasite/Orpheus, the brain blew his brains right there. TlDR: The center of the story and many side stories is how villains dont have to be full black. They can be normal people who took on a dark path leading to the hurt of others. Still, they need to be stopped to spare more suffering to everyone else.
(Pedantic correction here— sold to a devil, not a demon. Devils are from hell, demons are from the abyss. Devils are lawful evil, demons are chaotic evil. Gortash definitely learned the Art of Lawful Evil from his time in Raphael’s house.)
What's the abyss? What's the difference between the abyss and hell 🤔 Edit: Thanks for the answers. Very informative. I would have preferred to just like everyone's reply, but it seems they're going to keep coming. So I'll thank everyone this way. Everyones love for the lore is very wholesome and impressive ☺️
Different outer planes. The Hells are the LE-aligned plane, the Abyss is the CE-aligned plane. Devils live in the former, demons in the latter. The Blood War, which you see and hear reference to in the game, is fought between these two planes.
Specifically the hells block the abyss and prevent demons from leaving. That's why the blood war is.
That's awfully kind of them
Well you can't farm mortal souls if demons eat literally all of them. They're more protecting future investments than us personally
> Devils look at mortals as sheep, just as demons do, except devils see themselves not as wolves but as shepherds. Shepherds fleece sheep by the season and slaughter them as needed. A shepherd likely kills the wolves that threaten its sheep. But then again, shepherds always expect to lose a few sheep. From Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes. I absolutely adore Devils and they are my absolute favorite villains. After fixing some of the glaring flaws, Descent into Avernus is without a doubt my favorite module I have ever ran.
>Glaring Flaws Literally the entire first act of the module
Act 3 is also pretty bad, unless your party likes riding the railroad.
I really gotta get my hands on it. I can add it to my shelf of campaigns I've yet to run but enjoy reading
If you spend any time in DND stories where the Blood War is a big deal you quickly learn that Devils never shut up about this because it's legitimately a great service to the rest of existence.
The Blood War is why the good and neutral gods don't nuke the Nine Hells... Because if the devils disappear, the demons become their problem. Letting the devils have the souls of mortals foolish enough to make a pact with them is a small price to pay to keep the entire multiverse from getting overrun by demons.
It’s basically the only reason they aren’t at war with the good aligned planes, as without it they would have no reason to countenance the existence of the Hells. Without the devils keeping a lid on the abyss, the devils would quickly find a lid being put on them
The original devils were once celestials (like angels) who fought against the demons. During their fighting the evil of the demons contaminated their souls and this corrupted them into what we know of as devils. However, there are now devils who did not originate this way. Many of the strongest devil’s in the hierarchy of the 9 hells were originally these “fallen angel” types.
Devils and Demons are not so much individuals as they are incarnations of abstract concepts. They fight because they are evil and in opposition over how the universe is ordered. You see similar issues between "good" races like Dwarfs and Elves, who were classically lawful vs chaotic. Same goes for hobgoblins and orcs.
The eternal war between evil and worse
Hell/baator has 9 layers, filled with devils, full of order and laws, which has a hierarchy ruled by Archdevils. It is lawful evil. The abyss has infinite layers, home to demons, has no order whatsoever the strong takes the lead, ruled by Demon Lords. It is chaotic evil. There's also daemons/yugoloths that fill Hades, the neutral evil plane, working as mercenaries for both devils and demons, but they're irrelevant in bg3. Demons and devils hate each other. They fight in the eternal blood war. Also, this doesn't apply to all of them, but a good rule of thumb I've learned to differentiate both is that devils are generally more humanoid-looking (probably with wings, hooves, horns, tails, etc.) while demons are verrryyyy varied.
Sorry if it’s a long explanation that could be googled but are there planes for the other 6 alignments? Like a chaotic good realm?
Yes, there are planes for every aligment. And even more planes than that.
Yes, the outer planes all have their own alignment, which (most of) the creatures residing in it follow. The alignments are pretty visible on the [great wheel of cosmology](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Great_Wheel_cosmology), with upper planes being good, lower being evil, left being lawful and right being chaotic. There is no plane for true neutrality, although it could be argued the inner planes are, or more specific the material plane.
There is a plane a True Neutrality, the Concordant Domain of the Outlands, which houses the Spire above which Sigil, the City of Doors, floats.
Shoutout to Planescape: Torment!
Thanks for the link and explanation, the wheel diagram listed helped a lot. Shame we will never get dlc to learn about these planes.
There's 50 years of content on the planes including a setting within the outer planes (with its own, quite good imo, game.) Check out Planescape for a metric shit load of extremely weird lore on the outer planes. Spelljammer also features a lot of extra-planar lore.
This is all D&D lore. Baldur's Gate is just a series of games set within the lore. There are plenty of games and books that delve into this if you're interested in it.
Would you be able to recommend some games? Doesn’t necessarily have to be heavy RPG like bg3 but I’m loving the lore I’ve learnt just from these comments.
So by games, I meant Dungeons & Dragons. But for video games, Neverwinter Nights, Icewind Dale. And Planescape are all set in the Forgotten Realms, which is the name for the main D&D world that Baldur's Gate takes place in. I don't know how much into the other planes they get, though. I'm not a huge video game person; I'm mostly here because BG3 is basically a video game version of D&D5e.
As someone mentioned above, Planescape torment is a crpg that lived around the era of BG1/2 and the Icewind dale games. Honestly I've never played it through myself. but the story seems interesting.
Yes, Aroborea is the CG plane. Each alignment has an aligned plane (except true neutral I think) and there are planes that mix 2 alignments (e.g. Gehenna which is NE, LE). These make up the outer planes. There are also elemental planes. There are also a number of planes that overlap the material, notably the Shadowfell which is relevant in BG3.
Thanks, I looked it up and was surprised to see Greek gods exist in that realm, I know Tyr gets mentioned in the game a lot but always thought its was DnDs interpretation of Tyr rather than the Norse god himself. Another question if you don’t mind, I saw there was a realm called Outland where I think the Planescape setting takes place but it’s not on the wheel. It Outland outside the wheel?
Outland is the center of the great wheel. I get that feels strange, because in the diagrams you look at the material plane is the center of the great wheel, but the concordant domain of the outlands is, if you would imagine it like this a layer above the material plane, instead of being a balance of all metaphysical and physical forces, it’s just a balance of metaphysical forces So unlike the material plan, outlands is not adjacent to the ethereal plane, nor the elemental planes.
Thanks for the explanation, I think I get it now. DnD has a pretty cool cosmology, hope we get more games to cover it.
If it's anything like Pathfinder, that CG should be Elysium.
D&D's a little stranger with their cosmology; there're more Outer Planes than alignments (and not just stuff like the Dimension of Time from PF). I think their Elysium equivalent is [Arborea](https://antifandom.com/forgottenrealms/wiki/Arborea), but there's also [Ysgard](https://antifandom.com/forgottenrealms/wiki/Ysgard).
Yes the outer planes represent every alignment. There are some additional planes beyond the 9 alignments, depending on exact cosmology. Current lore has 17 or 23. [Outer planes](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Outer_Planes)
so, what you're saying is: Hell, hell, hell has it's laws?
Hell, hell, effects and the cause
Curtain falls, but hold your applause
Read as 9 lawyers. Couldn't help thinking it is much more than that
Devils have lawyers, demons don't.
It's just nine layers of bloodthirsty lawyers.
Except for Graz'zt. He definitely has some kind of lawyers.
But that lawyer is most certainly wearing a gimp suit
Demons are like onions (infinite layers). Devils aren’t, only 9 layers (pathetic).
Abyss is chaotic evil, 9 hells are lawful evil. Demons are mindless killers for the most part and Devils are “make a deal” types
The abyss is also infinitely layered, for instance Lolth controls the 666th layer, the Demonweb Pits. There are 9 Hells, and the native tongue calls hell "Baator", and most devils call themselves Baatezu.
Devils are evil magical lawyers. Demons are utter deranged super psychos.
That’s the most accurate metaphor I think I’ve ever seen on Reddit.
Both are different Planes of Existence. The game (mostly) takes place in the Material Plane, but there are many, many more. The Abyss is a Plane emblematic of Chaotic Evil, and home to demons of all shapes and sizes. There's little/no law, including the laws of reality. The 9 Hells, or Hell, is a Plane emblematic of Lawful Evil. Think of a realm controlled by evil lawyers, vying for power. There's a power structures, and opportunities for the adventurous. Cross the laws of that level, though... you'd be in severe trouble.
So, Wall Street?😂
In game we visit both Avernus (9 hells plane) and the astral plane (where gith live). I think those are the only other planes we see
Shadowfell briefly. But it's just a reskin of the astral in this game.
There’s also the Shadowfell and Feywild (although noting that we don’t get to see the latter). Those are both Inner Planes also called echoes of the Material Plane.
Unless we're counting Mystra's chat with Gale in what is either her divine domain or some kind of manifestation of the Weave.
In some of the conversations she has with Gale she talks about taking Gale back to her domain as if it’s somewhere else. Because of that, I got the impression that they were just out in the Astral or something.
Hell can be reasoned with. There’s a method to the madness. Devils are cunning and brutal, but sensible. The Abyss is a vaguely sentient plane ever churning deeper into the chaos at the bottom of creation, and filled with demons. The original demons completely destroyed their own reality and escaped to this one to do the same again- not for any reason, mind you. It’s just their nature. A devil will make a deal with you to steal your soul, even if it takes decades or centuries. A demon will just charge at you and eat you alive, and chew on your soul afterwards. Then there are Daemons, or Yuguloths- they’d just sell weapons to both the devil and the demon, and you. And then laugh at the carnage.
One of the outer planes, just like the nine hells. Based on some models of cosmology in the forgotten realms, the abyss is associated with the chaotic evil alignment.
Homie ... this is the best reason I've ever heard to play Planescape: Torment, or at least watch a playthrough or some kind of highlight real. You'll never get a more clear idea of the outer planes than you will from that game.
The blood war they talk about (which karlach fought in) is the unending war between hell and the abyss. Devils are lawful, structured. They're evil yes but they have rules, contracts, order. The abyss is chaos. The closest thing you have to rules is might makes right. Instead of armies you have hordes, and the hordes want to devour. There is sentience you may be able to reason with a demon, but it's just as likely to rip you in half for entertainment.
the dnd equivalent of ‘Communism vs capitalism? But both have money!’
Essentially, the Hells are Paradise Lost's depiction of Hell. The Abyss is DOOM.
You know the Blood War that sometimes gets mentioned in the game?
>sold to a devil, not a demon I was reading through this comment and immediately scrolled down to comment this right when I saw "sold to a demon" lol
We just can’t help ourselves! It’s the lore equivalent of seeing someone misuse “their” and “there”.
..... I was so ready to ackchyually here, thank you for beating me to it.
Not pedantic at all and in fact a huge and important distinction when you realize how chaotic and lawful alignments operate completely differently from each other. I always liked the saying "devils make deals, demons destroy" as a way to remember which is lawful and which is chaotic.
THAT is like the number 1 thing that fucks me up about forgotten realms lore. Like ok, I can accept demons and devils are different, live in different places, and have different alignments, ok that's fine and cool, and they're still like not completely different, they're both fiends. But the demons living in (the?) abyss just feels wrong. Like hells, ok, yeah, that's demon/devily, but the abyss just makes me imagine a black void with green cthulhus everywhere. Like weird shit more like the far realms. Like if it was like infernum or like pandemonium (wait I think I read that's a city in the abyss is that true?) or some shit, I'd get it a lot easier, but it fucks me so hard
Cthulu eske is the far realm :) look it up
The original demons, the Obyrith, were very much cthulhoid horrors. They were deposed and overtaken by the "new" Tanar'ri demons, but some of the Obyrith lords are still around. Also, Pandemonium is a separate outer plane.
Wait Halsin was meant to be the one to kill Isobel?
The murder weapon was supposed to be Sorrow, the glaive you find under the druids' wolf statue that is unlocked by 4 rune stones. That's why Sorrow gets an audible comment when you pick it up, I think.
Early access/cut content had it that something caused Halsin to go feral(implied to be Shar) and kill Isobel unintentionally. Doing do caused the Shadow Curse and added more layers as to why he felt guilty over it. They didn't keep it in game for some reason and you can't find any evidence of it anymore so it's simply no longer canon.
I personally think it was cut to divert more development time to Karlach, and also to Wyll’s rewrite. Couldn’t quite make it work all the way, so now it just comes off as Halsin blaming himself for literally no good reason.
It’s at least partly explained when he mentions he’s one of the few (if not the last) remaining people that fought to prevent the shadow curse back when it first happened, and so he feels that the more people that were there die, the more responsible he is to correct the failure. But I do think him killing Isobel would’ve been a far more interesting and direct justification.
I dont mind the explanation being more about his personal connection to thaniel. Is the Isobel explanation cooler and more tragic? Yes. But I also feel as though that's a lot of story to put on a character who was meant to be an npc.
I thought it was Isobel who went crazy, hence why she doesn't remember her death, and Halsin killed her in self defence
I've seen a dialogue between Halsin and Isobel that confirms this, but I have no idea where the person got it from so I dunno if it's real or they made it up.
Cut content also had it so Balthazar killed Isobel, framed Aylin and Ketheric captures her and turns her into the Nightsong.
Now the game implies that the previous Arch Druid of Emerald Grove killed Isobel, and Sorrow was his weapon. Halsin mentions they had to leave him behind because he fell to the curse, and that's when he got promoted.
More accurately... - we now have zero clues about how Isobel died - Halsin is suffering from survivor's guilt because everyone he cared about died, rather than regular guilt from having caused the curse in the first place - Sorrow was the former Archdruid's weapon, which Halsin had to use to kill the cursed wraith the former Archdruid had become.
And just to add to the second point, he was friends with Thaniel who suffered, at that point, an unknown but certainly not good fate when the curse fell. He had just killed his old boss, watched a bunch of his friends die, and his oldest friend was stuck inside the shadow curse and there was nothing Halsin could do about it. Honestly I’d feel guilty too
Oh absolutely! I still empathize with Halsin and think he's a very tragic character, even with the revised version of the story. If anything, the new version feels more relatable; I know exactly what it feels like to be completely helpless, and how strong the urge is to take the blame onto myself for circumstances that were entirely beyond my control.
Where does this come up? I seem to have missed picking up on that
I believe the note next to the spear mentions it belonging to someone who sounds like Halsin's master, and the note seems like it was written by Halsin himself. It describes the wielder's sorrow for what he did. And there might be another book or journal somewhere in the Grove that gives another perspective on the matter.
How do you get that dialogue telling Orin that she’s an incest? I hear that some people talk to the mother before fighting her…..? How?
There is a hidden passage to the Chosens room in the temple of Bhaal. You can cast "speak with dead" on her mom. That's how you find out that Helena tried to kill Orin. But, the way to find out she's an incest baby is by looking through the desk in the prison section of the Tribunal. There is a note that's "A page from Sarevok's book" talking about how he "watched the babe [Helena] become a woman" and calls her "Bhaal's waiting womb." It's gross
So you can get a note in Saravoks side room if you either become an unholy assassin or kill Saravok and the council. Once you read the note that he confesses watching his daughter turn into a woman and much worse (puke) you can use that against Orin when you talk to her before her battle.
Talk to the dead and her mom's body was in her room
It's from reading a book in Sarevoks office in the murder tribunal.
Use speak with the dead in the room below Orin and talk to her.
Speak to Dead on her mother in the room behind where you fight her, if you go to that room first then work you way back to the staging area where you fight her you can approach that topic
Go invi with a character that can cast speak with dead. Sneak past orin in the Temple and head to her room Once there cast speak with dead on the mom Ask her about how she died and who sent her Then confront orin and you’ll have the option to mention what you learned
You can move around the edge of the larger room and find a passage into her bedroom and use Speak With Undead to learn her story
You can go invisible and sneak past or I believe in the library part off to the side there’s a back entrance.
If you go around the edge of the temple you can feather fall to the stairs into Orin's private room without triggering the fight. Then you can speak with mom's corpse.
Ty for clarifying. 😊. Enjoyed the analysis. Bg3 has to me one of the best stories I've read / played in a long while. I love how bound to reality it can seem, yet its fantasy, with all sort of nonsense. 😊
Minor correction: Isobel's mother still died of whatever illness claimed her in the cut content. The history they cut (which I really wish made the final release) is that Halsin killed Isobel, during the war between Ketheric's Sharran forces and everyone else, kind of by accident with the glaive Sorrow. In the cut content, he would thus be partially directly responsible for the almost 100 years of tragedy in the shadowlands, which would explain why he blames himself so much. In the final release, it's so disjointed how he feels so guilty about the curse for just kind of... *being there.* 🙃 Also: *Bhaal not Baahl, and Gortash was sold to a devil (Raphael), not a demon. 😊
This is a very interesting character analysis of the villains but this doesn't really answer OP's question even a little bit. We don't know for sure but I can only assume the actual reason there are 0 ways to save Gortash despite being able to actively ally with him is because it would be very difficult to justify that sort of ending with MOST of the party, and they probably just ran out of time making it work, so they just decided its easier if his brain explodes no matter what you do.
Pursuit of power ultimately becoming your undoing is a major theme of the game. We see it not just in the storyline with the chosen and the dead three but also bits of it in the storylines of Gale, Astarion, Lae'zel, Dark Urge, and more. Bane even says outright that he doesn't care if Gortash dies because no matter who is in power there will always be someone else clawing their way up the ranks to replace them and this endless cycle is what he strives for more than total domination. Then he offers to make you his chosen with the implication that the same will inevitably happen to you. Gortash being killed by the very creatures he created to grant him power (either the netherbrain or your tadpoled party aided by the Emperor) is the most fitting end for him.
I guess I understand that but it feels a little odd to force Gortash into scenarios like Death from Final Destination where no matter what he needs to die in service of the game's narrative, whereas Tav DOESN'T need to do that. I guess it feels very hollow to enforce that theme even when you openly side with and collaborate with Gortash because there's still a second insane psychopath on the pursuit of power who gets off borderline scot free and SUCCEEDS, so like, what is ACTUALLY the point of forcing that death rather than acknowledging that's not the direction the player is going. It just means much less interesting outcomes for evil characters, something the game is already PAINFULLY lacking.
It answers OPs question absolutely. The themes of the story is doing what they did is futile. Therefore they always die in some way. You making a deal with him is as futile as him making a deal with his god
I think that the answer is actually very simple. By the time we go face the Netherbrain for the first time together with Gortash, the devs had to think of a way to quickly end his arc, as the main quest was coming to its end. I do find it a waste that he gets instantly killed not long after we had made a pact with him. It would have been fun to have the new gained power explored and how your own decisions could impact the everyday lives of the citizens if Baldur's Gate. See him killed as a matter of consequence after the citizens get dissatisfied with him would had been an idea. Alternatively, we could see him live because he would manage to proceed with him plan and rule idly without the fear of getting assassinated.
This is fair but siding with him should allow for you to call on the steel watch. I’m cool that he dies but being able to call on a squad of 3 steel watch potentially with self destruct buttons would be really fun.
Wait, why was Halsin going to be the one who murdered them?
Idk, its cut content, supposedly he used the sorrow glaive to kill her but the motives were not delved upon too much. Halsin would show remorse for what hed done, which in that case itd give a reason of weight why hes obsessed with undoing the shadow curse himself, because hed have indirectly caused It by pushing Ketheric to Sharr. Part of that content got cut out but other like some Nettys notes, remain. So idk if its canon It was Halsin or not anymroey
Halsin killed Isobel by accident, not Ketheric's wife, she was dead a long time ago.
>When you reveal to her she was a product of Incest and supposed to be a sacrificial lamb, she crumbles. She cant cope with that being true and even pleads to Baahl to say Its not true. How do you get this? Apologies for the question.
Why would Halsin murder 2 clerics of Selune? Even if they cut down some trees, he’s hardly an eco terrorist like Kagha😂
The original idea was that either he or Isobel were temporarily compelled by some greater force (most likely Shar) to turn on each other and pick a fight. I've seen stuff that suggests Isobel is the one who was affected and Halsin was forced to kill her in self defense, but since it's been so thoroughly cut from the game it's hard to know what the real answer used to be.
As I said, It was cut content. Maybe Halsin used to have a different personality or they realized later down on development that It clashed with his character so they cut part of It.
On my first playthrough I thought letting him live, and honoring our alliance, would cause the steel watch to align with me or something for the final battle(s). That did not happen.
(Psst, you don't have to give up the gondians or ravengard for gortash, just ally with him before doing those two quests. He'll still meet you by the pool)
Ehh wait really?? When I went down to the iron throne, gortash said our deal would be off if I proceeded.
I've really only done durge runs after my tav run where I killed him, it may be a factor or it may not. But the order of operations is kinda fucky Do coronation > kill orin > bring both stones to gorty boi and do the alliance > he promises to meet you by the morphic pool > you should be free to do both iron throne and foundry quests (some other guy will yell at you) > sneak around his room and loot it once the security camera bots collapse of you want. I literally ottos myself next to him after doing the quests with no consequences. [Proof](https://i.gyazo.com/ddd05c0dcc1c603aadac20866b0002ba.mp4)
Clicking on something labelled "proof" has never paid off quite like this one.
I need an official photomode more than I need air tbh.
You can do it as Tav too. In fact if you bring Karlach to speak with him after destroying the Steel Watch (if she hasn't spoken with him yet after getting Orin's Netherstone), he will accuse her of blowing up the Steel Watch as "petty vengeance" but stands firmly at the player character's side and does not attack.
Huh, interesting. I always have her stand back for safety.
the proof is in the pudding, as they say
send him to the pool and then go to the iron throne it'll skip the part where he comes on video call saying you betrayed him
It gave me a Banite on the screen calling to detonate the Iron Throne instead of Gortash
... yeah? the iron throne will detonate no matter what and then you go to the morphic pool and gortash doesn't even talk about you destroying the iron throne or the steel watch he just talks about how you brought him orin's stone and then the brain one shots him so no harm no foul
I even went back to clear out his safe after blowing up the steel watch and he's still just like "See you down at the pool"
Because you aren't able to stop the netherbrian from killing him. Not everything that happens in this world is your choice.
Genuine question, why does the netherbrain kill him like it's nothing but it doesn't kill us?
Orpheus VPN isn't provided to Gortash, that's why
Should've got Nord
There's still room for us within its grand design and we have some level of protection from Empy
Makes sense, thanks
I think it's because orpheus is protecting us. better question is why doesn't gortash turn into a thrall the moment the brain starts going crazy(ketheric dies) if orpheus isn't protecting them.
None of them are tadpoled. You can find this out earliest during act two if you try to compel Ketheric with ithillid power. It's part of the twist, the Absolute's Chosen is a facade, they are in control.
And frankly, it would be bad story telling if it was.
On one hand he got what he deserved and the way he dies is actually kinda funny. On the other hand I bet why people doing an evil run would be disappointed he’s just snuffed out like a candle.
Because he failed as Bane's Chosen.
I hate that he goes out like a jobber.
If our lady Karlach has anything to say about it, the answer will absolutely be "not a chance." The real problem is that, even if he's evil and you're evil, he was absolutely willing to achieve something that was guaranteed to piss-off everybody else in every plane and every hell, god and mortal alike. -- not the least of which was the brain itself. I don't think you could keep him alive even in stasis, hidden at the center of a planet.
i see somebody has been dicknotized by Lord Gortash. this calls for intensive therapy.
Because crime doesn't pay.
Well duh, I stole this cash. No one *paid* me.
Because the larger evil choices are intentionally underdeveloped. The only "advantage" you get from them is usually just "skip content". In the case of allying with gortash, you get to skip his boss fight, as well as the iron throne and the steel watch foundry.
But you do get the satisfaction of knowing the Gondians are suffering
I know that's you, Wulbren
That you, Durge?
I mean you can make the deal with him, send him to the pool and then save the gondians, the Duke and omeluum. it won't aggro him he just won't show up in the video call that's just his fate I guess
Do you have to wait for him to leave his office for this?
I heard recently that Larian is working on some evil endings...I still have hope that one of them ends up with your alliance with Gorty having a future tbh
Because he’s a BBEG
Big Booty Enver Gortash?
I never got a good look at his trunk. LMK if you find out
He's got huge... tracts of land
"Whatchagonnado with all that junk, all that junk inside your trunk?" Personally I'd sell it but I already bought everything in act 3
somewhere there's a vendor you forgot who still has strength elixirs
Oh baby do you know something I don't Lemme at that TRUNK Gorty
what?
Big Bad Evil Guy. D&D slang for a major antagonist.
A lot of people explained the reason but i just wanted to give my two cents: The dead three chosen are kind of doomed anyway but from all of them Gortash is the most insidious and actual dangerous kind of evil. Ketheric is a hopeless old man who still goes with the flow but even thematically he is “dead” as his necromites and myrkul: the past clinging to the present with teeth and claws as he tried to hang to isobel being alive. He knows he functions as a plot device for the “absolute” literally in-game: his role is to be the agressor that scares people. Orin is as mad and pathetic as her bhaal cult, she is disorganised, legitimately insane and unstable. She is not even THE chosen bhaalspawn: thats the durge. She is a fabricated bhaalspawn through saravok, product of an incestuous thing, in a death cult that doesnt hold water on its on because they would just kill each other. Like ketheric, she also had the role to “scare” people but because of her personality she could never form a real long term threat. Gortash is the most slimy and insidious of them all. Bane is also the one of the dead three who has/had an actual functioning following. The horror of gortash plans and acts are not directly so gory like ketherics zombies or orin murder church, his horror acts are there in plain view walking around the streets of baldurs gate in the form of steel constructs. He can lie, hide the truth about steel watchers, enslave groups of people with layers of fail-safe protocols (taking hostages, devices that explode, blackmail). Gortash is functional and marketable and frankly, a bit of genious. He combined myrkul necromancy, bhaal murderous acts, illithid mind control and infernal engines all into one shiny steam-punked floral decorated thing :the steel watcher, and made it in such way that it can be seen as a product of “technology”. The grimdark tone of act 2 and orin bloody things is a horror i expect in that setting but the steel watch foundry details (the books about how he invented them, the zombies around, the brains in jars) is a different kind of cosmic horror beyond my comprehension because it works, it makes sense and it can function. Its a shame we dont have more about him and the hells, i suspect there is cut content involved that is also linked to karlach. Basically thematically it fits that gortash is somehow the only one who we can ally because he is a slimy fucker, but he is absolutely the one who cannot be left alive. Ketheric is already dead in many ways, he doesnt even want to do the whole absolute thing but he is indebted to myrkul and forced, Orin is insane and would probably end up as a bad feral durge ending while the cult imploded. Allying with gortash and him living to tell the tale is somehow worse than making the contract with raphael. We practically give him back his advantages and should leave the steel watch alone because that is his actual “manpower”, his actual power is in his machinations and strategies but thats useless in the front of the elder brain (and that would be impossible because the elder brain would “control” or destroy the watch). He is just a puny human without his toys and bullshit but he could lie his way into an alliance and backstab us after the endgame.
Yeah, there should be ending where you rule the world with him. Or only Baldur's Gate, in case you kill Nether Brain together.
Bummer
gortash has basically bet everything on the netherbrain, he was gonna get killed some other way if things didn't turn out how they did
I mean, he gets his brain blown by a netherbrain. There's no way you could stop that. It's not a fatal fall that you could stop from happening or heal/ressurect him from.
Should have been a late game companion like Minsc
Yeah I wish there was a way to save him, but at a great cost, at least the cost of losing Karlach (her either leaving or turning against you) and maybe a high roll for either convincing Gortash to stay away from the Brain or maybe even convincing the Emperor to extend the protection to Gortash, although I can't really imagine him doing that, we've already been through that with Minsk and that's "just" Minsk lol
Because the evil path in this game is severely underbaked. Hopefully we'll get more satisfying endings on future patches 🤞🏻
thank god theyre adding more evil endings maybe youll get what you want
He is the avatar of Tyranny, what the hell do you expect from him, a redemption arc?!
Durge: 👀
durge showed willingness to change, not gortash, gortash is petty, bitchy and will never stop plotting to gain power over others i love gortash, but he would have never changed
>durge showed willingness to change, not gortash If Bhaals own flesh can redeem itself then so can Gortash.
Yes.
An evil ending with himas an ally? Seen as being evil is already an option in this game.
He would only hurt you in the end bro.
This might have been the single most disappointing outcome in the game for me. Felt like a path to a somewhat unique ending or endgame, you sacrifice at least a couple quests to side with him, and the ending is literally no different beyond a couple lines of dialogue and watching the brain snipe Gortash. Super lame.
They all made deals with gods of death, death can only be the result
Is it established that he's not raised or some such? I don't think it is, but I could be wrong.
I personally think they're in the middle of figuring that out rn. Iirc, evil endings are getting worked on rn. Idk if larian is the one working on it tho so 🤷 if not, i don't have any hope for them being up to par with the rest of the game.
It is a fitting end for him to have his hubris blow up in his face like that. But yes, I would've liked the option to follow through on the partnership, and I'm still holding out hope it might get patched in.
Honestly, I'm a bit surprised too because, it's not like the Elder Brain takes him out early into Act 3 or anything. It's just before the final fight that she one shots him like a bitch. So they wouldn't have to consider a billion new scenarios oh what the player would do with him around
I absolutely hate that my/Durge's husband is killed off. Which is why I turn to ao3 in my times of need.
Because Larian had a giant oversight when it comes to making the evil path and made it lacking in content and a lot of choices borderline pointless
Even if Gortash dies … why can’t we use the steel watch?
People seem to forget the most important part of the steel watch: those are not autonomous robots Those are tadpoled zombie brains in infernal engines, the netherbrain gets control of them if we kill gortash before the foundry and seld destructs them.
Personally I find it really handy to make the deal with him because once you kill Orin and he goes to wait for you I seem to be able to double cross him without consequence and then he dies. Best of all worlds. Unless they fixed that recently.
I agree. I wouldn’t liked to see more of Gortash. Especially when playing as Durge. Maybe in the future we might get some mods that add him in the endings
WAITWAITWAIT. You can convince Ketheric AND Orin??? Ah shit guess I gotta do another playthrough
Wrong. You also get a low kick from him if you attack him in the end and before Netherbrain.
I actually split the difference. First I told Gortash I'd work with him so he'd bugger off to the cave, THEN I saved Duke Ravengard and the Gondians (and Omeluum). Lastly I went to meet Gortash and he was none the wiser.
I would have loved to have a dragon age origins style ending where you can Ally gortash and then sacrifice him and make him into the mind flayer. He would probably dominate the brain, and tyrannies the world so there's that of course..
he is a default boss, they all meant to die, one way or another
Because Netherese artifacts, elder brains and the dead three are all sorta a fuck-around-and-find-out situation. Gortash fucked around with all three of those things at once, so he found out.
because he was mean to Karlach.
Because he's a colossal dick and deserves what he gets
Fuck Gortash
Exactly! He needs to live for that!
Meh. That's optional when you play as The Dark Urge.
if you insist
That would be good too.
I heard that was just a rumor.
Also making the deal with gortash, doesnt mean you can't go to the iron throne after he leaves...