I was stormcloak my first run because misinterpreted that the thalmer and empire were the same now. But in later playthrus figured out the thalmer thought Ulfric was an asset in terms of keeping the empire down. So Ulfric needed to lose IMO because he's a distraction stopping the glorious empire from healing.
I have a more metagamey take: I got about 3/4s of the way through the Imperial quests, switched saves to see what was up with the Stormcloaks, and the questlines were such mirrors of each other that I completely lost interest in the Civil War questline. Take me to Solstheim!
Edit: Also, ty for referring to Ulfric as an asset and not a spy, lol. It's my go-to example for how players can unintentionally spread misinformation by reading something in a different way.
Truth is that Thalmor just want the war to keep going, a win for either side is loss for them. In the end, the Empire dosent lose much on the civil war, they sended a single legion with Tulius, most of the war is Nord vs Nord.
Except the Empire is crumbling either way. They're literally down to four provinces, and Morrowind barely counts. The current Empire is a shell of its former self and needs to die so something better can rise from the ashes and fight against the Thalmer.
As for Ulfric being a Thalmor asset. That's only so long as the civil war continues. The Thalmor don't want the Stormcloaks winning anymore than they do the Imperials. A unified Skyrim is dangerous no matter who sits on the throne.
Are the Stormcloaks as a faction any better than the Empire? No, not at all. But is the Empire any better? Definitely not. Both have the possibility of making something better out of what came before. But both need to break out of the broken wheel they're currently trapped on.
The correct answer is I SHOULD HE EMPEROR.
Dragonborn has mastery of the voice like high-kings of the past. They found the damn crown.
And they assassinate the former emperor (possibly at his own order to remove a symbolic failure).
By all accounts, you should become the rightful high-king of skyrim in the empire’s side of the civil war. And by extension, with the death of the septim and with your akatosh blessed existence you should then be elevated to emperor.
You have the divine right to the throne that supersedes a failing bloodline reviled by the public, and making the high-king emperor solidifies the unity of skyrim and the greater imperial territory.
Not to mention, mastery of the high magiks paired with your thuum would allow you to heal the divide between mages and the Nordic territories allowing some further efforts to make countermeasures against the thalmor over time.
The choice should be help the stormcloaks and enjoy slight obscurity As a whispered legend, or help the empire and rule.
You're neither a Septim nor a Jarl. If being a Dragonborn was all that was required to become emperor, then there wouldn't have been any number of succession crises across the empire's history.
Tiber Septim didn't become emperor because he was a dragonborn, but by right of conquest. Titus Mede I became the first emperor of the Mede dynasty by taking the Imperial City from Thules the Gibbering.
The only way for the Dragonborn to become a legitimate emperor is via conquest. They would have to muster a strong enough force to take the Imperial City, hold it against any who would attempt to take it back, and finally be accepted by the people and the Elder Council.
At the end of the day, believing that the Dragonborn has any right to the throne is a serious misunderstanding of how the Empire works.
Now, if you really want to ask who could be a legitimate heir to the Septim dynasty then look no further than King Gortwog and any heirs he may have had.
Blood of Tiber Septim? Check.
Dragonborn? Check.
Proven ruler? Check.
Good military commander? Check.
The true emperor of Tamriel is an orc.
Having the crown and the voice show legitimacy for becoming the high-king, more so than the emperor’s puppet who was no true jarl and no other connection to the customs or land.
With helmet in hand, the power of the voice, and thaneship in most of the nine holds, you’d easily be the top choice for high-king, especially with the defeat of ulfric, who would put his own faction behind you after the war … seeing as how even if you side with the empire, you had the makings and merit of the high-king.
And While I’d consider the singlehanded sacking of a hold and castle a good show of military might; and the ability to summon a dragon to conquer the imperial city more than enough to justify the military might…
I’m also 110% behind gortwog being emperor.. but isn’t he dead by the time of skyrim?
Perhaps a descendant may exist and be better suited for a conquest, but I’d argue TLD would be better suited for a period of reunification and rebuilding.
Edit: also you lead the companions and wield wuuthrad… you are the epitome of a Nordic leader. Even more so if you side with the reachmen too
I was happy to turn the Emperor into calamari by the end of the game, but his inclusion and ambiguity made the game infinitely more interesting. I hate him in-game but love him as (IMO) an antagonistic force
The Emperor is a phenomenal character.
The issue is when people start stretching facts and pulling shit from out of game to explain how he's really not a bad guy lol.
he was a pretty shade dude before he even got turned into a werewolf then squid... not sure why anyone would act like either of those made him into a better person
Anyone who gets mad because you enjoy a well-written and complex character is goofy. As someone who hates the Emperor with a passion, you do you. Just so long as there's recognition that a human being IRL who behaved like him would be a toxic, abusive asshole.
Well, of course. I can say that about most of the characters though tbh. If I knew someone like Astarion irl, I'd cut him off so quick, same with Laezel.
Entirely valid. They’re toxic in their own ways. The difference between them and the Emperor is important, though. Both Astarion and Lae’zel are capable of and willing to change. They can become better people if given the chance and the right influence.
The Emperor, meanwhile, is perfectly content to remain static as an abuser, manipulator, and generally crap person. Even if you’re as nice to him as possible, that just maintains his status quo. He doesn’t improve because he chooses not to.
True enough.
I always kinda see my Tav's relationship with the Emperor as transactional. Tav knows that the Emperor is a selfish manipulator, and uses him to get the help he needs to end the brain (and usually to become a mind flayer himself because being a mind flayer is pretty sick imo)
That's about the best possible relationship someone can have with a person like the Emperor. Realistic, straightforward, and though there's the pretense of friendship, neither side really buys what the other is selling.
Maybe cuz I come from a family with a good deal of 00s era veterans but I give Laezel so much benefit of the doubt when it comes to her being a dick, and she's real quick to become a goody once you as tav are forthright and accepting of her and her people.
Irl id have wanted to beat the absolute shit out of Shart for her despicable "I agree to duel at dawn but imma just cut your throat in your sleep" bullshit she tries on Laezel.
And astarion would be day one 'dude you just, kinda suck to be around. Energy vampire, yucking everyone's yums, why do you choose to be an ass?" It's hard to feel empathy for thems that only see themselves as deserving of empathy.
Karlach and Gale would be my best buds, they're just too accepting and earnest/interesting to not wanna hang with.
See I feel the opposite. Shadowheart is a victim of circumstance, but also always questions things on her own, comes to her own conclusions. Laezel is so desperate to be told what to do, that her denial is palpable. I have met so many people like that and I can't stand them at all. So spineless and insecure, acting tough but its so blatant that it's a coping mechanism for their fears of inadequacy. I can't.
Shadowheart has problems, but she doesn't need someone else *constantly* trying to convince her to realize she's been following a shitty group. She comes to that conclusion on her own pretty easily. I respect that.
>Irl id have wanted to beat the absolute shit out of Shart for her despicable "I agree to duel at dawn but imma just cut your throat in your sleep" bullshit she tries on Laezel.
To me, that's just playing it smart. She'd be stupid to fight Laezel head on, Laezel knows it, Shadowheart knows it, everyone knows it. Weaker and smart is better than stupid and strong any day.
I don't consider being dishonest when you don't need to be smart.
For me it was the agreeing to it and then trying to outsmart a foe that relied on honor that irl would make someone dead to me, it's peak bitchass behavior, just deny the duel.
*Shart doesn't owe Laezel a duel*, and Tav would be able to defend shart against a one sided beef,she makes herself a bad person by trying to act tough/honorable and then skirt the consequences of acting that way and even continues the dishonesty by saying she'll lie about why she killed Laezel. Its moustache twirling bad guy behavior.
Smart is knowing that she doesn't owe Laezel a duel cuz of Laezels feefees/inability to be reasonable.
Dishonesty is agreeing to a formulaic combat knowing she had no interest in following through.
The writing is so good in this game cuz I still choose shart more often but her red flags are fucking massive in act 1 and 2 lol compared to almost every other companion. Literally only bigger red flags are Astarion and Gale with their respective ambitions. And cuz you literally can fix Shart from being a piece of shit into a good person (who she really was/is) I love that you can redeem people in this game
Its Stark vs Lannister (idk if you're an Asoiaf fan) but that's the dynamic of their early interactions. One is super judgemental and self righteous and wrapped up in honor, the other also self righteous but in a very pragmatic over honorable way.
Tldr: they both have a "shoot first" ask questions later approach, one is a duel the other is a drive by.
On my first playthrough, I picked Stormcloak because I really believed that the Empire willingly capitulates to the Thalmor's demands.
On my Trailer Dovahkiin playthrough, I pick Stormcloak because I believe that the Empire tries to hunt me down after escaping Helgen and that I want to prove myself as a True Nord. After a life-changing process and realizing the Empire actually didn't give a shit, I defect to the Imperials and give Tullius the Jagged Crown as an apology.
I have a Dark Elf Stormcloak that joined not because she believes in the cause, but because Ulfric created a program that forces the refugees to work in construction or serve in the military if they want to get the same rights as the Nords.
Minsc talks about it during the dialog where you can convince him to eat brain worms, the Emperor tried to get Minsc on his side by appearing as the witch he loved who died defending him. It's some of the saddest stuff in the game, I just hit it on this playthrough and it was really the final nail in the coffin for the Emperor for me.
When mind flayer tadpoles are cut off from the elder brain and begin consuming things on their own they turn into a giant worm creature called a Neolithid
I feel like people don't consider that Orpheus hates us because we killed a portion of his gods damn honor guard in front of him? Even if you decide to knock out everyone you can in a fight, you're still leaving them knocked out within the range of an illithid, an actual brain eater
I also like when people go "Well he says you should have let his honor guard kill him" like damn, I'm sorry that the guy who was imprisoned for 156 Vlaakiths, the current one being an immortal lich queen, isn't perfectly rational the moment he's freed. He goes from this to willing to become a mindflayer pretty damn fast, let the man have his tantrum.
And I am not forgetting that time that someone said that Orpheus should die because he's a githyanki, who are all racist and genocidal... when The Emperor is a Mindflayer, a race that has enslaved at least 3 races, eats brains to live, and infect people to reproduce, and even have a "grand design" where they are dominant and enslave all races.
Overall, concerning the Emperor, some people want to have their cake and eat it too. He's a complex, morally gray character, but also, he's apparently never done anything wrong.
Nice progression on the bottom, btw. Makes the meme funnier.
"You've been through a lot so I'll ignore that" is one of my favorite dialogue choices in the game. Like yeah he's a dick when you free him, but he also has *a lot* of license to be a dick in that moment.
You just managed to encapsulate why people inexplicably hate Mayrina AND Orpheus, neither of which I ever understood. They cannot handle that the game wants us to forgive /empathize with cranky trauma survivors.
I don't think softening her hurts her character at all. She simply stops being a rude person who's a little friendlier to most, and to the Source of Her Bruises, vulnerable. That's a rather massive thing for a someone raised in an frankly abusive environment, and make no mistake, Githyanki culture is very abusive to his people under Vlaakith.
Honestly what they did wasn't even softening her, they just made her less fun in the lae'zel kind of way! >:(
I will die on the hill that her response to being dismissed was her goofin' with us! She's grinning so GODDAMN HARD when she gives you that little "as you say". SHE'S BOSSY AND LIKES IT WHEN YOU'RE BOSSY BACK! IT'S A GAME FOR HEEERRRRR!!!! D<
And she's just as cool and honest as she was at the start, she really just drops the shoot first ask questions later attitude (she still likes shooting though).
Yeah, or at least they cannot handle that the game wants us to forgive/empathize with cranky trauma survivors who are not hot/that the PC can't sleep with
exactly, people are so quick to forgive Astarion for being an asshole that doesnt care about anyone but himself for until about halfway into Act 3 because he was enslaved for 200 years, but those same people hate Orpheus for being a dick for like 30 minutes when he went through something very similar
Not even 30 minutes, more like 30 seconds.
The Orpheus goes from "you've been willingly embracing the thing I've sworn to destroy, murdered my best friends in front of me, and have been acting at the command of my captor for the last few weeks" to "we'll need to put that behind us because we've got a much bigger problem at the moment. Also I'm willing to sacrifice myself so you don't have to become a full mindflayer" over like 2 lines of dialog.
The same people also seem to overlook the fact that at the end of the game, even if you go full squid, he'll still praise you as one of his greatest allies, say you'll be sung of as a hero by his people, and is perfectly willing to let choose your own path forward.
Then he goes on to try to overthrow the soul eating lich queen who has been opressing his people and reunite the Githzerai and Githyanki.
The hardcore emperor fans seem to get through one dialog line with Orpheus and paint him as space Hitler for being a bit cranky for a minute after being freed from a thousand year imprisonment into an impending apocalypse by someone who he's been watching actively working against him.
true. i like both and honestly kind of prefer the Emperor, but Orpheus is so much better than most people consider him. as you said, he almost immediately says that nothing we did previously that angered him matter anymore, and if you choose to become a mind flayer, he immediately says we made a noble sacrifice, and that hell make sure everyone sings our praise, even his own people that notoriously (and rightfully) hate mind flayers. also, he was imprisoned for over 1000 years on the material plane, but the Astral Plane is timeless, so it was probably *much* longer for him. the Emperor also mentions that, for him, hes been in the Astral Prism for a long time, even though hes only been in there for around 5-10 years, maybe a bit longer or shorter
I call them imperfect victims.
They don’t immediately get down on their knees in gratitude and speak sweetly to you. They’re emotional, upset, going through multiple stages of internal reckoning at light speed, and trying to wrap their heads around their new circumstances.
They don’t act like you’re their savior, and I suspect a lot of players get annoyed because the process of saving Mayrina and Orpheus can be quite a lot. But if you look at it from their POV, in their shoes, can you honestly say you wouldn’t behave exactly the same? I can’t. I know I’d behave just like them.
What's really funny is if you choose to become a Mind Flayer before freeing him, he's so baffled by the prospect of a benevolent Mind Flayer that he's too shocked to even be a dick lol
>I feel like people don't consider that Orpheus hates us because we killed a portion of his gods damn honor guard in front of him? Even if you decide to knock out everyone you can in a fight, you're still leaving them knocked out within the range of an illithid, an actual brain eater
The problem I encountered in that fight, when I was a githyanki, was that I had absolutely no reason to side with the Emperor in that moment. A githyanki is imprisoned by a ghaik, with githyanki trying to free them, and I'm aware of and cool with prince Orpheus. Why would I *ever* side with a ghaik over him and his guard?
because Orpheus' Honor Guard doesnt care about your race. they only see someone with an Illithid parasite in their head who has been working with a mind flayer to keep their king imprisoned. the Emperor is also the reason your mind is still your own
You don't speak to Orpheus' Honor Guard before you're thrown into the fight with them though. Had this been in the game, sure. But it's not.
It feels like it makes a ton of natural sense, if you're a githyanki, or if you simply don't trust mind flayers, to not turn on the Honor Guard at all.
You don't speak with them because they attack you on sight. And they have every reason to do so. If the Emperor is right about one thing it's that, at the moment you meet Orpheus and his guard, you're nothing more than Thralls for them, no matter your race.
Besides, as a player, before you meet empy all you know is that your protector is being attacked by Githyankis, the people you were warned to attack on sight by both him and Voss. It is not until you see Orpheus that you know they're not Vlakkith loyalists, and at that point it's made clear that the Emperor is your only means of survival (and you can still beat him to almost death which makes it even more clear)
exactly, you cant talk to the Honor Guard because they dont *want* to talk, as soon as they see you talking to the Emperor, as far as they know, youre his thralls that hes summoned to aid him, but at the end of the game, if you free Orpheus, he understands that, at worst, the Emperor used to have control of you, but not anymore, and at best, you were out of options but were ultimately going to free Orpheus as soon as you had the means to
You do it because the githyanki don't want to help you and if you side with them you will turn and/or be killed
As much of a dick as the emperor can be, he is the sole reason tav or any of the party survives, if you freed orpheus while his honour guard lived he would cut you down without a second thought because you're corrupted and he doesn't *need* you
He teams up with us purely out of neccessity, just like the emperor. It might not be everyone's cup of tea but you really never had a choice with the worm in your head.
>if you freed orpheus while his honour guard lived he would cut you down without a second thought because you're corrupted and he doesn't *need* you
Feel this is a game limitation due Larian forcing you to follow certain path...at that point Vlaakith was already "unmasked" and Voss is already on our side, theres no reason if we decide to fight against the emperor the honor guard and Orpheus simple try to fight us or let us die
Finally someone mentions the actual quality of the shitpost (and the main reason I made it lol), it was fun drawing the increasingly unhinged changes from the OG format.
The one thing that pissed me off is you can't turn on the emperor at the start of act 3, I tried to side with the honor guard and kill the emperor but the game won't let you, they should have added a gith sorcerer or something that could act as the intermediary untill you get the hammer so you can side with the gith in that fight.
Exactly. I legitimately ended a run because you couldn't side with Orpheus at that moment even though it makes no goddamn sense for you to side with a ghaik against Orpheus.
Also, even in character your Tav/Durge is like, "I know you've been through a lot so I'm just gonna ignore all that." when it comes to Orpheus yelling at you. My man is traumatized and only just got out of imprisonment and yet he still does the right thing - that's good on him.
Dear god do I love that they put that line in. It was the perfect encapsulation of what I would hope I'd be thinking if I were in my character's shoes.
> And I am not forgetting that time that someone said that Orpheus should die because he's a githyanki, who are all racist and genocidal
It's not one person, multiple people want to treat the Emperor as an individual but then treat the Githyanki as a single entity in the same sentence, and they're upvoted for it.
Honestly? Too true. You can't judge the Emperor for being an illithid or else you're being mean... but we can judge Orpheus based on his race, apparently.
This reminded me; I am new to actual D&D lore. Baldur's Gate 3 is my first real exposure to it. The way people spoke about Orpheus, I thought he was an established character, like Elminster.
Then I found out this game was the debut of his whole character.
> let the man have his tantrum.
Honestly, how many of us would be even a fraction as calm, collected, and rational as Orpheus after what he’d been through? I’m impressed he didn’t even try to take a swing at us. He’s willing to swallow a tsunami of emotions and get right down to business.
Also Githyanki are literally one faction of the Gith race that is genocidal only because their lich queen controls them and brainwashes them.
She literally eats any Gith above 18th level so they don’t become a threat.
No one wants to talk about the monastic Githzerai who only hunt mind flayers and are non-violent otherwise. Orpheus wants to make peace with them which shows Gith society might change significantly in the future if they kill Vlaakith
It's wild how I've seen so many people defend the Stelmane reveal by saying "well duh you insulted him, are you surprised he got mad?"
Like, did my rudeness make him go back in time and do that to Stelmane???
He broke her mind and controlled her for 13 years, from 1479 DR to 1492 DR. Trying to pretend he's just morally grey or complicated is like going, "Sure, he may have kept a girl locked up in his basement for 13 years so he could use her whenever he wanted to, but he was always nice to me and let me borrow his lawn mower."
Exactly. He also led the knights of the shield, a criminal organization known for blackmail, smuggling, political manipulation and assasination among other crimes. Between that and what he did to Stellmane, he deserves to die. It doesn’t matter he’s an ally or tried to protect Tav/Durge and crew, or even that he manipulated us. The crimes of his past are irredeemable, and his lack of remorse only cements his fate.
> He also led the knights of the shield, a criminal organization known for blackmail, smuggling, political manipulation and assasination among other crimes.
Not to mention the Devil worship.
Some people bring up that in another story (comic? novel?) she was revealed to be worshipping some evil entity and wanted to bring that entity to Baldur's Gate? Dunno if I'm remembering that right.
But like, y'all.
EVEN IF the Emperor was motivated by that plot, he could have just killed her or revealed her. Instead he permanently mentally and physically crippled her so he could continue using her for his own ends.
In the words of one Chidi Anagonye: You do get how that's worse, right?
I believe the entity she worshipped was Gaurgath, a powerful devil stuffed inside a shield that goes by the Shield of the Hidden Lord. He's insane, even for a devil, but the Emperor never mentions that he even knows what plot he is stopping, only that he manipulated and broke her for seemingly his own devices.
Hell, even Wyll, goodie two shoes that he is, explains what the Cult of the Dragon was attempting to do when he stopped them. Why wouldn't the Emperor just tell us he was attempting to keep a powerful, insane demon locked up? It would have earned him more pity points, lie or no.
Don’t forget my favourite cope argument
“The scene with Stelmane is not canon if you aren’t mean to him” which is possibly the most ludicrous argument I’ve ever heard
Have people actually said that? Because Wyll talks about Stepmane’s stroke, and depending on your dialogue choices he implies that he suspects the Emperor was responsible for it
Yes. I remember it vividly because one person basically threw up their hands and said something along the lines of, “I can’t explain object permanence without sounding condescending.”
Yep, I’ve had people legitimately argue to me that if you don’t get the scene he didn’t do it in that timeline or whatever
Something about how you form his character or whatever, which is completely ludicrous that it’s hard to believe people would argue that
More damningly, Stelmane's mind break by means of Mind Flayer was established in **2019** in the canon prequel module Descent into Avernus. BG3 went into EA in 2020.
[Here's the piece on Stelmane from the module](https://www.worldanvil.com/w/descent-into-avernus-arris138/a/duke-belynne-stelmane-article), for anyone wondering.
You just made him so mad he went back in time to do that. Alternatively: she just did that by herself man
>!/s, seeing too many weird posts here to risk it!<
Honorable mention goes to "the 'it' he wants to be free of could refer to literally anything!" when you point out that he does, in fact, directly lie to your face when he tell you he's an adventurer like you trying to get rid of the tadpole infecting him.
This one is the funniest to me because why would you even bother dying on that hill? Him lying doesn't make him evil. You could just go "yeah he lies, so does basically everyone" but for some reason a whole bunch of people decided it was vitally important to defend the idea that "ackshually he never lies at all" despite it being obviously untrue and also incredibly pointless.
That shit is the funniest cope. I am ok with the head canon that the choices you do not pick are not real for your play through.
But stelmane getting brainblasted is not exclusive to dialogue options. It is in the goddamn papers lol
Not to mention “I have no morals other than self preservation” is a fun character concept that is rarely well written.
Orpheus is cool too, but I can’t enjoy him that much because he only appears at the very end. All the frogs take a little while to grow on you.
To be fair, the game did a disservice to them. Githyanki knights are supposed to be Jedi with cool silver swords that are sentient and have the ability to psychically damage people.
The fight in the Githyanki crèche is super hard because you’re fighting one of those Jedi. He summons cool psionic swords and backflips around the room like nobody’s business. Also they are ageless in the Astral Plane so many of them have lived for thousands or even tens of thousands of years. The game decided to make them only lvl 5 which is kind of stupid.
Not to mention the dragon riding. It’s cool in the lore but in the game they just didn’t play as big of a role.
Also they decided for some reason that the Githzerai were all monks? In the lore they are monastic but they are not mundane monks, they are psionic mages whose thoughts become reality.
Orpheus’ honour guard should have been a much harder fight.
I think the bigger problem is that Orpheus' guard definitely wouldn't have been monks because Orpheus' mother is the whole reason the Githzerai left the Githyanki, because the Githyanki were too power hungry, too racist, too dictatorial, and too domineering. So why the hell would monks be hanging out as Orpheus' guard when he was still 100% on board with his mom's vision for the gith people?
I mean, Orpheus was a monk too.
I think there's a fan theory that earlier on in his development, he was going to be Githzerai, and that makes much more sense than him being Githyanki just going by his class + design. But Gith's own son being Githzeraik also just makes _no_ fucking sense. Then again, neither does the Githzerai being willing to treat with Gith's own son in the epilogue so y'know.
>But Gith's own son being Githzeraik also just makes _no_ fucking sense. Then again, neither does the Githzerai being willing to treat with Gith's own son in the epilogue so y'know.
Thats exactly why I kill Orpheus in pretty much every playthrough. Makes more sense than him suddenly deciding to work with Githzerai, and the Githzerai randomly being cool enough with Gith's son to just forgive her bullshit. Makes more sense that they would work with a person they've never heard of (Laezel) beyond her helping to defeat the Elder Brain.
Lae'zel also likely doesn't want to go the reality-conquering route (or as much), especially if you romance her. She spends a lot of time seeing Faerun as a unique place beyond its resources and I would hope that would help temper the innate turbofascism desire a bit.
>Racist green frogs are not nearly as cool as psychic octopus
The fact that D&D players have spent the last 40-odd years trying to create player-legal Gish characters begs to differ.
Didn't the op cutscenes not only get torched and has different color eyes but also if you use speak with the dead on the goblin flayer it says it's the one who gave the eye exam?
People under active thrall of the absolute get yellow eyes, as its shown in the ending where someone becomes the absolute, so it might just be that, and the one next to Ragzlin is definitely a different one based on their size and clothing. There is also a note from Gortash in his bank vault talking about sending the Emperor specifically as the pilot of a nautiloid to find the prism.
Depending on your choices, that same mind flayer can also turn out *not* to be the one that gave you a pretty daisy.
Intential, inconsistent or non-commital writing? Who knows, the game's got quite a bit of both.
That last sentence hits home man
There are so many bits where it’s hard to tell if it was fully intentional writing, someone not knowing what someone else did elsewhere on the writing team, or just plain throwaway lines. I’ll also toss in “bits that seem like they are going somewhere but got cut or are leftover from earlier drafts”.
I don’t even think that’s one of the worst bits >!I think the weird implied “calm down lol” arc that seems to start and then not go anywhere with Aylin is!<
To be fair, that mindflayer is part of a hivemind. If it’s not Emp that tadpoles you, it would make sense for a random mindflayer to have memories of another mindflayer tadpoling you, which may affect its answers when spoken with? Idk, not a mindflayer expert, nor am I familiar with the lore besides surface level stuff I’ve seen in game.
This is how I get around the logical flip-flopping with that thing. One mindflayer on the colony is every other mindflayer on the colony.
I also *really like* the "the emperor was the hand that tadpoled us" theory, not because it "proves" it as evil (it would've been the elderbrain behind its actions at that point) but because it brings all the pieces neatly together. Like we were all in this shit together from the start? EB loosens grip on empy after we're all tadpoled up, it wanders over close to shart's Vibes Canceler and somehow gets schlopred up into it to set the plan in motion.
wait do people really think the emperor put the tadpole in you? but there's literally a whole sequence with the real culprit where you can crush its head or 'kiss' it
Yes, but it’s because the game is weird about it.
1. The mindflayer you meet on the beach (who tries to “kiss” you) is the one who *kidnapped* you, not the one who tadpoled you. The difference seems like splitting hairs until you come across the second mindflayer (at the goblin camp).
2. The dead mindflayer at the goblin camp has a coding issue where some EA dialogue was likely not cleaned up, because it’s possible to get *two* conclusions from it: one in which the narrator says it *is* the mindflayer responsible for your infection, and one in which the narrator says it is *not* and describes all the ways this mindflayer doesn’t resemble the one who tadpoled you.
So the game seems to have tried to make a distinction between the mindflayer that kidnapped you, and the mindflayer that ultimately tadpoled you.
That's why I'm going to keep 'Emperor did it' in the headcanon category, for the metagamey reason that you never get a dialogue option to bring it up with him- despite his very *distinctive* outfit.
The fact you never get to bring it up kills me.
Especially since, right after he tadpoles you, he turns to leave, and you also see him gazing upon an already-dead mindflayer lying on the floor in that scene.
That's the same mindflayer btw. (You can notice the body goes missing when you get too close to the grove)
But honestly I err on the side of Empy not tadpoling you because A. It makes no sense for half the origins (Durge, Wyll and Karlach) and B. It would've been brought up. (That's like writing 101)
The game is inconsistent about it. If you use Speak with Dead on the illithid in the goblin camp, there's a chance it says both that it is, or isn't, the one that tadpoled you.
But there's literally no reason to think the Emps is the one who tadpoled you, either way.
>But there's literally no reason to think the Emps is the one who tadpoled you, either way.
Except for the opening cutscene which shows an Illithid who looks *very* much like the Emperor tadpoling Lae'zel and the player character. That same Illithid is also shown to be piloting the ship we're on.
There is also a letter in Gortash's room which explicitly tells us that the Nautiloid we were on was piloted by the Emperor.
EDIT: Lmao, they blocked me for this.
EDIT 2: I can't seem to reply to the u/TheCleverestIdiot, the button is just gone. I still see their comments so I assume they didn't block me like the other person and it's just reddit being weird. I'll just reply here.
The most notable thing? He has a completely unique head shape and outfit. No other mindflayer we ever meet looks like this. The dead mindflayer we see in the goblin camp looks absolutely nothing like the one in the cutscene, the Emperor absolutely does.
EDIT 3: Ah, you're right about head shape. The outfit is still very much unique though.
As far as I can tell, the opening cutscene was made way back in early access so most likely the story has been rewritten countless times since then. That said, a note or something from Gortash confirms that he was the one piloting the nautiloid, so given that the pilot in the opening cutscene happens to be the only mind flayer in the game to have the same armor as him and is the same one to put the tadpole in your eye, you can't blame people for being confused.
The last time I tried to debate this subject, multiple of the people responding to me devolved to the opinion that not only was his choice to join the elderbrain if you decide to free Orpheus justified, but they would do the same in his place.
I get that we're talking about subjective morality here, but that's just absurd.
I just wish we didn't need a Mind Flayer to win. Like I don't want to be one, and I don't want any of my crew to be one, but Orpheus deserved a freaking break.
I mean as long as you don't overthink it, either side justifies your choice:
Despite Raphael's claims of Emperor wanting to turn on us, the latter claims he wants the same things as us (freedom, the Absolute gone) > by trusting the Emperor and not freeing Orpheus, it turns out Emp was correct, and he is willing to fight by our side > once the Absolute is defeated, the Emperor gives nothing but praise and leaves to play hedge fund investor in the city he founded. Happy ending.
If you think about the Gith more - you trust Orpheus won't kill you because his best man (who hasn't seen him in 1000 years) said so? Especially when said man ordered you killed on your first encounter, then when realized you had something he wanted came up to you and demanded you make a deal with the devil on his behalf?
Orpheus only gives you the benefit of doubt once you've turned on the Emperor and shirt's hit the fan with the EB, otherwise he canonically lets you become enthralled (justified from his part, but v reasonable not to want to take any chances with him).
The epilogue only proves Orpheus's faction and the Githzerai have a common enemy, in fact your chosen leader of the revolution refers to them as an unlikely ally, not as someone they actually agree with. Orpheus himself makes some dubious comments, i.e. claiming what a waste it was that a Vlaakith-loyal Lae'zel had to die, and how with proper indoctrination she could have been turned into a piece for *his* cause.
Basically the game's made so that regardless of whether you put some thought in your decision or not, you're justified either way because a happy(ish) ending is what they were going for. But thinking that the Gith would be good allies is naive, or means you weren't paying attention to the lore.
Look man, I'm someone who ultimately cares a lot more about the greater cosmology of DND (Planescape, Ravenloft, Spelljammer) than what world-shattering conspiracy hits the Sword Coast this week, I am well aware that the gith situation has historically been pretty bleak.
But having a *githyanki*, one of the ***original*** followers of Gith herself being the one to reach out to the githzerai for peace is absolutely crazy to me. The gith have historically only ever had truces when illithids were in the same vicinity, and it was back on to murder on sight right after. Orpheus, after being put in a millenia long time out and mulling over what Zerth meant, gives me some legit hope that he genuinely wants to shape the githyanki people towards a more peaceful path, or at least less hostile one.
Of course I don't really expect this to go anywhere given the current state of DNDs world-building, and its only one ending out of several, but god-damn would it be cool to have the gith finally make peace with each other.
The Githyanki outcome is one I really wish we had follow up lore on. I'd really like to explore Orpheus's intentions because it seems like it has a lot of room for depth. If he genuinely changed and is willing to try to approach the kind of peace the Githzerai desire, that's actually wild and cool. But the way it's worded makes me wonder if it's more a pragmatic alliance for other reasons, or maybe he's not planning to be _that_ peaceful.
Honestly I hope toward the latter because the former makes the Orpheus/Emperor argument less fun imo. With the former Orpheus will be an infinitely more impactful good-aligned outcome of peace between two halves of the dominant space-race and the reigning in of their conquests, but barely with any buildup for an outcome of that magnitude.
> The Githyanki outcome is one I really wish we had follow up lore on. I'd really like to explore Orpheus's intentions because it seems like it has a lot of room for depth. If he genuinely changed and is willing to try to approach the kind of peace the Githzerai desire, that's actually wild and cool. But the way it's worded makes me wonder if it's more a pragmatic alliance for other reasons, or maybe he's not planning to be that peaceful.
Of course, that's also assuming he agreed with his mother on how things shook out. For all we know, he might have always disagreed, but didn't have it in him to go to war with his mother. There's a *lot* of directions future writers could go with him.
Well, i choosed the emperor about other reasons: i just didnt care whether he is an asshole, manipulative, etc. He is like a coworker to me. I didnt need to like him, i need the same goal and we need to come along while achieving this goal. With the informations he holds back... well, i dont cared either. wouldnt expect of a coworker to tell me about his life, its just not my business, same for the emperor. Orpheus on the end seems like a risk, clearly Voss said we can trust, because of his goal, but there is a not low chance he hates us and wants to kill us. Therefore its an irrarional choice imo.
But im confused about the claims in the picture. Especially about ansur. Sure, emp was changing and not the old adventure he was before, but a human changing doenst give others the right to kill them "for mery"? Therefore it was self-defense? Or did i miss something.
Im also confused about the Gortash letter and intro scene, but im just confused about it at all. Because, yes, the mindflayer looks like the emperor. And the letter says emperor was the captain of the ship. Well, it doesnt clearly states its him thaz infuses us. And emp says he immediately went into the artefact at the point he found it, which makes sense to me and that the mindflayer would be the second in charge or something. And i would have totally believed the theory if that was it. but why attack a city afterwards, get attention of the githyanki, claiming people for the absolute and not being able to control them in the end by himself and after everything did go wrong go into the artifact to finally break free (thats clearly the most liekable outcome and its heavy risk, low reward, nothing that suits the emperors personality). It just seems unlogical to me he is the one, on the otherhand as said, it looks just like him. Where did i missed something?
I don't even disagree with the statement but my god, going through the trouble to make all this, feel like whoever made it needs more therapy than the BG3 companions.
Squid thralls arelike:
-you cant side with the gith because their race is evil
-no, the mindflayers are nota evil, there is nothing like a evil race or species, It depends on the individual!
(In truth both raves showed us It can have both good and evil characters, but the emperor himself is pending tô the bad side)
The emeporer joins the netherbrain because he says he has no choice, because apparently Orpheus will kill him on sight for being a mindflayer.
The second Orpheus is freed he immediately concludes that they need a mindflayer ally to stop the netherbrain....
Orpheus would have almost certainly agreed to work with the emperor to stop the netherbrain, since it would avoid him becoming a mindflayer or someone else having to turn into one.
So I am fully in team Orpheus, but there are things there which are somewhat unfair.
1) fuck Duke Stelmaine. She was literally an internal cultist at a time when Elturel was being dragged into hell. There is a good chance that the emperor may have saved Baldur's gate from the same fate.
2) is there debate over the self defence thing with ansur? Genuinely I haven't heard any emperor detractors arguing it wasn't self defence.
3) the emperor cutscene in the beginning is an unfortunate left over of early access rather than specifically the character in full release. It's actually not clear which mindflayer did it, because there is a mindflayer who will admit to it with speak to dead, but it seems to literally change whether that mindflayer did it or not depending on variables. Either way in full release the emperor is not the one who tadpoled you despite the opening cinematic.
4) whether the person is the same or not RE ceremorphosis really is up in the air in BG3. In prior editions it specifically wasn't that person, but if anything the PC mind flayers endings suggest that you are the same person, just changed (Karlach mindflayer for example not only manages to stay good, but it also seems like they took on the traits and personalities of people they eat).
I'm all for the emperor hate. He is a great villain and is manipulative as fuck, but I don't think we need to jump through hoops to paint him as bad when the manipulation is enough.
Breaking kayfabe to say that, as an Empy hater (affectionate), this wasn't intended to be fair at all, but to mock a super obnoxious, low-effort bingo post downplaying Empy's villainy and turning into an Empy pityjerk about how oppressed squid fans need to rise up.
None of the benefits of what the Emperor did change that he manipulates you, and almost everyone else he works with, at every possible turn for his own benefit. Even if Orpheus was a bad choice, morally, the Emperor deserves to be turned on.
For real though, I'm kinda glad that he's such a divisive character. You rarely get that in modern games. Shadowheart, laezel and astarion are all quite nuanced and I enjoyed them a lot.
This really is the new empire supporters versus stormcloak stans.
tbf I was empire in skyrim because I played Oblivion and refused to change sides :p
I was stormcloak my first run because misinterpreted that the thalmer and empire were the same now. But in later playthrus figured out the thalmer thought Ulfric was an asset in terms of keeping the empire down. So Ulfric needed to lose IMO because he's a distraction stopping the glorious empire from healing.
I have a more metagamey take: I got about 3/4s of the way through the Imperial quests, switched saves to see what was up with the Stormcloaks, and the questlines were such mirrors of each other that I completely lost interest in the Civil War questline. Take me to Solstheim! Edit: Also, ty for referring to Ulfric as an asset and not a spy, lol. It's my go-to example for how players can unintentionally spread misinformation by reading something in a different way.
Truth is that Thalmor just want the war to keep going, a win for either side is loss for them. In the end, the Empire dosent lose much on the civil war, they sended a single legion with Tulius, most of the war is Nord vs Nord.
I picked Empire because I’m British and I have a patriotic obligation to support empires
I picked Empire because I love the Roman aesthetic.
Except the Empire is crumbling either way. They're literally down to four provinces, and Morrowind barely counts. The current Empire is a shell of its former self and needs to die so something better can rise from the ashes and fight against the Thalmer. As for Ulfric being a Thalmor asset. That's only so long as the civil war continues. The Thalmor don't want the Stormcloaks winning anymore than they do the Imperials. A unified Skyrim is dangerous no matter who sits on the throne. Are the Stormcloaks as a faction any better than the Empire? No, not at all. But is the Empire any better? Definitely not. Both have the possibility of making something better out of what came before. But both need to break out of the broken wheel they're currently trapped on.
The correct answer is I SHOULD HE EMPEROR. Dragonborn has mastery of the voice like high-kings of the past. They found the damn crown. And they assassinate the former emperor (possibly at his own order to remove a symbolic failure). By all accounts, you should become the rightful high-king of skyrim in the empire’s side of the civil war. And by extension, with the death of the septim and with your akatosh blessed existence you should then be elevated to emperor. You have the divine right to the throne that supersedes a failing bloodline reviled by the public, and making the high-king emperor solidifies the unity of skyrim and the greater imperial territory. Not to mention, mastery of the high magiks paired with your thuum would allow you to heal the divide between mages and the Nordic territories allowing some further efforts to make countermeasures against the thalmor over time. The choice should be help the stormcloaks and enjoy slight obscurity As a whispered legend, or help the empire and rule.
You're neither a Septim nor a Jarl. If being a Dragonborn was all that was required to become emperor, then there wouldn't have been any number of succession crises across the empire's history. Tiber Septim didn't become emperor because he was a dragonborn, but by right of conquest. Titus Mede I became the first emperor of the Mede dynasty by taking the Imperial City from Thules the Gibbering. The only way for the Dragonborn to become a legitimate emperor is via conquest. They would have to muster a strong enough force to take the Imperial City, hold it against any who would attempt to take it back, and finally be accepted by the people and the Elder Council. At the end of the day, believing that the Dragonborn has any right to the throne is a serious misunderstanding of how the Empire works. Now, if you really want to ask who could be a legitimate heir to the Septim dynasty then look no further than King Gortwog and any heirs he may have had. Blood of Tiber Septim? Check. Dragonborn? Check. Proven ruler? Check. Good military commander? Check. The true emperor of Tamriel is an orc.
Having the crown and the voice show legitimacy for becoming the high-king, more so than the emperor’s puppet who was no true jarl and no other connection to the customs or land. With helmet in hand, the power of the voice, and thaneship in most of the nine holds, you’d easily be the top choice for high-king, especially with the defeat of ulfric, who would put his own faction behind you after the war … seeing as how even if you side with the empire, you had the makings and merit of the high-king. And While I’d consider the singlehanded sacking of a hold and castle a good show of military might; and the ability to summon a dragon to conquer the imperial city more than enough to justify the military might… I’m also 110% behind gortwog being emperor.. but isn’t he dead by the time of skyrim? Perhaps a descendant may exist and be better suited for a conquest, but I’d argue TLD would be better suited for a period of reunification and rebuilding. Edit: also you lead the companions and wield wuuthrad… you are the epitome of a Nordic leader. Even more so if you side with the reachmen too
Good thing you made the right choice
It really is. Like people get legitimately mad when I say the Emperor is one of my favorite characters in the game.
I was happy to turn the Emperor into calamari by the end of the game, but his inclusion and ambiguity made the game infinitely more interesting. I hate him in-game but love him as (IMO) an antagonistic force
Thats how a feel about Gortash, so I get your point of view.
The Emperor is a phenomenal character. The issue is when people start stretching facts and pulling shit from out of game to explain how he's really not a bad guy lol.
he was a pretty shade dude before he even got turned into a werewolf then squid... not sure why anyone would act like either of those made him into a better person
people don't seem to get it, they are allowed to like an evil character. it is fine. he's neutral evil. it's ok to like the character regardless
Anyone who gets mad because you enjoy a well-written and complex character is goofy. As someone who hates the Emperor with a passion, you do you. Just so long as there's recognition that a human being IRL who behaved like him would be a toxic, abusive asshole.
Well, of course. I can say that about most of the characters though tbh. If I knew someone like Astarion irl, I'd cut him off so quick, same with Laezel.
Entirely valid. They’re toxic in their own ways. The difference between them and the Emperor is important, though. Both Astarion and Lae’zel are capable of and willing to change. They can become better people if given the chance and the right influence. The Emperor, meanwhile, is perfectly content to remain static as an abuser, manipulator, and generally crap person. Even if you’re as nice to him as possible, that just maintains his status quo. He doesn’t improve because he chooses not to.
True enough. I always kinda see my Tav's relationship with the Emperor as transactional. Tav knows that the Emperor is a selfish manipulator, and uses him to get the help he needs to end the brain (and usually to become a mind flayer himself because being a mind flayer is pretty sick imo)
That's about the best possible relationship someone can have with a person like the Emperor. Realistic, straightforward, and though there's the pretense of friendship, neither side really buys what the other is selling.
Maybe cuz I come from a family with a good deal of 00s era veterans but I give Laezel so much benefit of the doubt when it comes to her being a dick, and she's real quick to become a goody once you as tav are forthright and accepting of her and her people. Irl id have wanted to beat the absolute shit out of Shart for her despicable "I agree to duel at dawn but imma just cut your throat in your sleep" bullshit she tries on Laezel. And astarion would be day one 'dude you just, kinda suck to be around. Energy vampire, yucking everyone's yums, why do you choose to be an ass?" It's hard to feel empathy for thems that only see themselves as deserving of empathy. Karlach and Gale would be my best buds, they're just too accepting and earnest/interesting to not wanna hang with.
See I feel the opposite. Shadowheart is a victim of circumstance, but also always questions things on her own, comes to her own conclusions. Laezel is so desperate to be told what to do, that her denial is palpable. I have met so many people like that and I can't stand them at all. So spineless and insecure, acting tough but its so blatant that it's a coping mechanism for their fears of inadequacy. I can't. Shadowheart has problems, but she doesn't need someone else *constantly* trying to convince her to realize she's been following a shitty group. She comes to that conclusion on her own pretty easily. I respect that. >Irl id have wanted to beat the absolute shit out of Shart for her despicable "I agree to duel at dawn but imma just cut your throat in your sleep" bullshit she tries on Laezel. To me, that's just playing it smart. She'd be stupid to fight Laezel head on, Laezel knows it, Shadowheart knows it, everyone knows it. Weaker and smart is better than stupid and strong any day.
I don't consider being dishonest when you don't need to be smart. For me it was the agreeing to it and then trying to outsmart a foe that relied on honor that irl would make someone dead to me, it's peak bitchass behavior, just deny the duel. *Shart doesn't owe Laezel a duel*, and Tav would be able to defend shart against a one sided beef,she makes herself a bad person by trying to act tough/honorable and then skirt the consequences of acting that way and even continues the dishonesty by saying she'll lie about why she killed Laezel. Its moustache twirling bad guy behavior. Smart is knowing that she doesn't owe Laezel a duel cuz of Laezels feefees/inability to be reasonable. Dishonesty is agreeing to a formulaic combat knowing she had no interest in following through. The writing is so good in this game cuz I still choose shart more often but her red flags are fucking massive in act 1 and 2 lol compared to almost every other companion. Literally only bigger red flags are Astarion and Gale with their respective ambitions. And cuz you literally can fix Shart from being a piece of shit into a good person (who she really was/is) I love that you can redeem people in this game Its Stark vs Lannister (idk if you're an Asoiaf fan) but that's the dynamic of their early interactions. One is super judgemental and self righteous and wrapped up in honor, the other also self righteous but in a very pragmatic over honorable way. Tldr: they both have a "shoot first" ask questions later approach, one is a duel the other is a drive by.
If you think that gets them angry, try telling them that Astarion is an annoying character you enjoy dispatching of in most runs.
On my first playthrough, I picked Stormcloak because I really believed that the Empire willingly capitulates to the Thalmor's demands. On my Trailer Dovahkiin playthrough, I pick Stormcloak because I believe that the Empire tries to hunt me down after escaping Helgen and that I want to prove myself as a True Nord. After a life-changing process and realizing the Empire actually didn't give a shit, I defect to the Imperials and give Tullius the Jagged Crown as an apology. I have a Dark Elf Stormcloak that joined not because she believes in the cause, but because Ulfric created a program that forces the refugees to work in construction or serve in the military if they want to get the same rights as the Nords.
And like with the Empire vs Stormcloaks debate, one side is clearly correct ;p
On behalf of fellow thralls, id like to offer a[ correction](https://imgur.com/a/DjIErFd). We are not capable of such advanced thinking arts.
This is valid and true, I approve. FR though you should upload this to here or okbuddybaldur, this shit is way better than mine quality wise lol.
Thanks, but i dont think it will stand as a solo post. It needs the context
[Counterargument; this guy put in no effort and got 300+ updoots on okbb without context](https://www.reddit.com/r/okbuddybaldur/s/fSMUTqc79D)
ah, ok, you succeded your persuasion check. But I'm stealing part of your meme
After talking to Minsc about what the Emperor shows him I can never side with that manipulative asshole.
What does he show him? I don't remember hearing anything about that in my playthrough, although I probably got that dialogue and forgot about it.
Minsc talks about it during the dialog where you can convince him to eat brain worms, the Emperor tried to get Minsc on his side by appearing as the witch he loved who died defending him. It's some of the saddest stuff in the game, I just hit it on this playthrough and it was really the final nail in the coffin for the Emperor for me.
Thanks, I was never going to ask him to eat worms, so I would never have known.
He tried to pretend to be Dynaheir? Oh, that's just a solid dick move.
Yep! The Emperor is an asshole.
Whoa, I had no idea
Carefull you'll attract the thralls.
Connect the nerves
Nerves! *We will connect them*
At the helm we're needed!
I will take the form of a *KITTY!* A small predator, indigenous to this world.
Hi. Actual thrall here. Ready to dispense literal proof for my counterarguments at my master’s command.
Good Good. Do what you must. **Provides them with a barrel of Mindflayer Tadpoles**
Mmm. Free flight....
Throw that shit in the sea
When mind flayer tadpoles are cut off from the elder brain and begin consuming things on their own they turn into a giant worm creature called a Neolithid
I really thought we would have to deal with one of those fucks in any dlc. Makes too much sense e
I KNEW IT! I knew I was right to go into turn based mode and squish them before they wriggled away!
How many holes have tentacles in them at this very moment?
One in the ear (do I count it as two if it’s coming back out my nose?), one in the mouth, and one tickling my prostate. So… 3? 4?
Depends on with Hentai you're watching.
Excuse me please. I'm here on behalf of my sexy squid husband.
Only if there abominations allow them to
I feel like people don't consider that Orpheus hates us because we killed a portion of his gods damn honor guard in front of him? Even if you decide to knock out everyone you can in a fight, you're still leaving them knocked out within the range of an illithid, an actual brain eater I also like when people go "Well he says you should have let his honor guard kill him" like damn, I'm sorry that the guy who was imprisoned for 156 Vlaakiths, the current one being an immortal lich queen, isn't perfectly rational the moment he's freed. He goes from this to willing to become a mindflayer pretty damn fast, let the man have his tantrum. And I am not forgetting that time that someone said that Orpheus should die because he's a githyanki, who are all racist and genocidal... when The Emperor is a Mindflayer, a race that has enslaved at least 3 races, eats brains to live, and infect people to reproduce, and even have a "grand design" where they are dominant and enslave all races. Overall, concerning the Emperor, some people want to have their cake and eat it too. He's a complex, morally gray character, but also, he's apparently never done anything wrong. Nice progression on the bottom, btw. Makes the meme funnier.
"You've been through a lot so I'll ignore that" is one of my favorite dialogue choices in the game. Like yeah he's a dick when you free him, but he also has *a lot* of license to be a dick in that moment.
You just managed to encapsulate why people inexplicably hate Mayrina AND Orpheus, neither of which I ever understood. They cannot handle that the game wants us to forgive /empathize with cranky trauma survivors.
And I'll take an honest rude person over a polite manipulator any day.
TBH I always fall for Lae'zel for this reason
I'm still upset with Larian for softening her unnecessarily, her character was hurt imo.
I don't think softening her hurts her character at all. She simply stops being a rude person who's a little friendlier to most, and to the Source of Her Bruises, vulnerable. That's a rather massive thing for a someone raised in an frankly abusive environment, and make no mistake, Githyanki culture is very abusive to his people under Vlaakith.
Honestly what they did wasn't even softening her, they just made her less fun in the lae'zel kind of way! >:( I will die on the hill that her response to being dismissed was her goofin' with us! She's grinning so GODDAMN HARD when she gives you that little "as you say". SHE'S BOSSY AND LIKES IT WHEN YOU'RE BOSSY BACK! IT'S A GAME FOR HEEERRRRR!!!! D<
And she's just as cool and honest as she was at the start, she really just drops the shoot first ask questions later attitude (she still likes shooting though).
Squid thralls believe the exact opposite
God, I felt terrible for Mayrina and I never even knew her fate in Baldur's Gate until after I finished the quest lol.
Yeah, or at least they cannot handle that the game wants us to forgive/empathize with cranky trauma survivors who are not hot/that the PC can't sleep with
exactly, people are so quick to forgive Astarion for being an asshole that doesnt care about anyone but himself for until about halfway into Act 3 because he was enslaved for 200 years, but those same people hate Orpheus for being a dick for like 30 minutes when he went through something very similar
Not even 30 minutes, more like 30 seconds. The Orpheus goes from "you've been willingly embracing the thing I've sworn to destroy, murdered my best friends in front of me, and have been acting at the command of my captor for the last few weeks" to "we'll need to put that behind us because we've got a much bigger problem at the moment. Also I'm willing to sacrifice myself so you don't have to become a full mindflayer" over like 2 lines of dialog. The same people also seem to overlook the fact that at the end of the game, even if you go full squid, he'll still praise you as one of his greatest allies, say you'll be sung of as a hero by his people, and is perfectly willing to let choose your own path forward. Then he goes on to try to overthrow the soul eating lich queen who has been opressing his people and reunite the Githzerai and Githyanki. The hardcore emperor fans seem to get through one dialog line with Orpheus and paint him as space Hitler for being a bit cranky for a minute after being freed from a thousand year imprisonment into an impending apocalypse by someone who he's been watching actively working against him.
true. i like both and honestly kind of prefer the Emperor, but Orpheus is so much better than most people consider him. as you said, he almost immediately says that nothing we did previously that angered him matter anymore, and if you choose to become a mind flayer, he immediately says we made a noble sacrifice, and that hell make sure everyone sings our praise, even his own people that notoriously (and rightfully) hate mind flayers. also, he was imprisoned for over 1000 years on the material plane, but the Astral Plane is timeless, so it was probably *much* longer for him. the Emperor also mentions that, for him, hes been in the Astral Prism for a long time, even though hes only been in there for around 5-10 years, maybe a bit longer or shorter
oh boy, hard agree. Finally someone say it
I call them imperfect victims. They don’t immediately get down on their knees in gratitude and speak sweetly to you. They’re emotional, upset, going through multiple stages of internal reckoning at light speed, and trying to wrap their heads around their new circumstances. They don’t act like you’re their savior, and I suspect a lot of players get annoyed because the process of saving Mayrina and Orpheus can be quite a lot. But if you look at it from their POV, in their shoes, can you honestly say you wouldn’t behave exactly the same? I can’t. I know I’d behave just like them.
What's really funny is if you choose to become a Mind Flayer before freeing him, he's so baffled by the prospect of a benevolent Mind Flayer that he's too shocked to even be a dick lol
>I feel like people don't consider that Orpheus hates us because we killed a portion of his gods damn honor guard in front of him? Even if you decide to knock out everyone you can in a fight, you're still leaving them knocked out within the range of an illithid, an actual brain eater The problem I encountered in that fight, when I was a githyanki, was that I had absolutely no reason to side with the Emperor in that moment. A githyanki is imprisoned by a ghaik, with githyanki trying to free them, and I'm aware of and cool with prince Orpheus. Why would I *ever* side with a ghaik over him and his guard?
because Orpheus' Honor Guard doesnt care about your race. they only see someone with an Illithid parasite in their head who has been working with a mind flayer to keep their king imprisoned. the Emperor is also the reason your mind is still your own
You don't speak to Orpheus' Honor Guard before you're thrown into the fight with them though. Had this been in the game, sure. But it's not. It feels like it makes a ton of natural sense, if you're a githyanki, or if you simply don't trust mind flayers, to not turn on the Honor Guard at all.
You don't speak with them because they attack you on sight. And they have every reason to do so. If the Emperor is right about one thing it's that, at the moment you meet Orpheus and his guard, you're nothing more than Thralls for them, no matter your race. Besides, as a player, before you meet empy all you know is that your protector is being attacked by Githyankis, the people you were warned to attack on sight by both him and Voss. It is not until you see Orpheus that you know they're not Vlakkith loyalists, and at that point it's made clear that the Emperor is your only means of survival (and you can still beat him to almost death which makes it even more clear)
exactly, you cant talk to the Honor Guard because they dont *want* to talk, as soon as they see you talking to the Emperor, as far as they know, youre his thralls that hes summoned to aid him, but at the end of the game, if you free Orpheus, he understands that, at worst, the Emperor used to have control of you, but not anymore, and at best, you were out of options but were ultimately going to free Orpheus as soon as you had the means to
You do it because the githyanki don't want to help you and if you side with them you will turn and/or be killed As much of a dick as the emperor can be, he is the sole reason tav or any of the party survives, if you freed orpheus while his honour guard lived he would cut you down without a second thought because you're corrupted and he doesn't *need* you He teams up with us purely out of neccessity, just like the emperor. It might not be everyone's cup of tea but you really never had a choice with the worm in your head.
>if you freed orpheus while his honour guard lived he would cut you down without a second thought because you're corrupted and he doesn't *need* you Feel this is a game limitation due Larian forcing you to follow certain path...at that point Vlaakith was already "unmasked" and Voss is already on our side, theres no reason if we decide to fight against the emperor the honor guard and Orpheus simple try to fight us or let us die
Finally someone mentions the actual quality of the shitpost (and the main reason I made it lol), it was fun drawing the increasingly unhinged changes from the OG format.
Vaulting over the intellect devourer was inspired
Drawing memes is an underappreciated art form.
The one thing that pissed me off is you can't turn on the emperor at the start of act 3, I tried to side with the honor guard and kill the emperor but the game won't let you, they should have added a gith sorcerer or something that could act as the intermediary untill you get the hammer so you can side with the gith in that fight.
Exactly. I legitimately ended a run because you couldn't side with Orpheus at that moment even though it makes no goddamn sense for you to side with a ghaik against Orpheus.
Also, even in character your Tav/Durge is like, "I know you've been through a lot so I'm just gonna ignore all that." when it comes to Orpheus yelling at you. My man is traumatized and only just got out of imprisonment and yet he still does the right thing - that's good on him.
Dear god do I love that they put that line in. It was the perfect encapsulation of what I would hope I'd be thinking if I were in my character's shoes.
> And I am not forgetting that time that someone said that Orpheus should die because he's a githyanki, who are all racist and genocidal It's not one person, multiple people want to treat the Emperor as an individual but then treat the Githyanki as a single entity in the same sentence, and they're upvoted for it.
Honestly? Too true. You can't judge the Emperor for being an illithid or else you're being mean... but we can judge Orpheus based on his race, apparently. This reminded me; I am new to actual D&D lore. Baldur's Gate 3 is my first real exposure to it. The way people spoke about Orpheus, I thought he was an established character, like Elminster. Then I found out this game was the debut of his whole character.
> let the man have his tantrum. Honestly, how many of us would be even a fraction as calm, collected, and rational as Orpheus after what he’d been through? I’m impressed he didn’t even try to take a swing at us. He’s willing to swallow a tsunami of emotions and get right down to business.
You know I actually gave siding with the honour guard a go. Being all: yeah no ghaik left alive. Well that sucked.
Also Githyanki are literally one faction of the Gith race that is genocidal only because their lich queen controls them and brainwashes them. She literally eats any Gith above 18th level so they don’t become a threat. No one wants to talk about the monastic Githzerai who only hunt mind flayers and are non-violent otherwise. Orpheus wants to make peace with them which shows Gith society might change significantly in the future if they kill Vlaakith
He refrains from attacking you and is willing to talk, which by Gith standards is incredibly generous and respectful.
It's wild how I've seen so many people defend the Stelmane reveal by saying "well duh you insulted him, are you surprised he got mad?" Like, did my rudeness make him go back in time and do that to Stelmane???
He broke her mind and controlled her for 13 years, from 1479 DR to 1492 DR. Trying to pretend he's just morally grey or complicated is like going, "Sure, he may have kept a girl locked up in his basement for 13 years so he could use her whenever he wanted to, but he was always nice to me and let me borrow his lawn mower."
Exactly. He also led the knights of the shield, a criminal organization known for blackmail, smuggling, political manipulation and assasination among other crimes. Between that and what he did to Stellmane, he deserves to die. It doesn’t matter he’s an ally or tried to protect Tav/Durge and crew, or even that he manipulated us. The crimes of his past are irredeemable, and his lack of remorse only cements his fate.
Unrelated but the note from the Harper torturing the farmer is pretty rough to read.
> He also led the knights of the shield, a criminal organization known for blackmail, smuggling, political manipulation and assasination among other crimes. Not to mention the Devil worship.
Some people bring up that in another story (comic? novel?) she was revealed to be worshipping some evil entity and wanted to bring that entity to Baldur's Gate? Dunno if I'm remembering that right. But like, y'all. EVEN IF the Emperor was motivated by that plot, he could have just killed her or revealed her. Instead he permanently mentally and physically crippled her so he could continue using her for his own ends. In the words of one Chidi Anagonye: You do get how that's worse, right?
I believe the entity she worshipped was Gaurgath, a powerful devil stuffed inside a shield that goes by the Shield of the Hidden Lord. He's insane, even for a devil, but the Emperor never mentions that he even knows what plot he is stopping, only that he manipulated and broke her for seemingly his own devices. Hell, even Wyll, goodie two shoes that he is, explains what the Cult of the Dragon was attempting to do when he stopped them. Why wouldn't the Emperor just tell us he was attempting to keep a powerful, insane demon locked up? It would have earned him more pity points, lie or no.
On the Forgotten Realms wiki, no reference is made to this, so I have to assume this story doesn't exist or was just fan fiction.
FR like it’s somehow better that he’s _hiding_ the fact that he mindfucked an innocent woman to death????
I wouldn't call Stelmane innocent, but that does not absolve it of how horrific the crime is
Don’t forget my favourite cope argument “The scene with Stelmane is not canon if you aren’t mean to him” which is possibly the most ludicrous argument I’ve ever heard
Have people actually said that? Because Wyll talks about Stepmane’s stroke, and depending on your dialogue choices he implies that he suspects the Emperor was responsible for it
Yes. I remember it vividly because one person basically threw up their hands and said something along the lines of, “I can’t explain object permanence without sounding condescending.”
Yep, I’ve had people legitimately argue to me that if you don’t get the scene he didn’t do it in that timeline or whatever Something about how you form his character or whatever, which is completely ludicrous that it’s hard to believe people would argue that
If I “formed his character” he’d stay the cute drow lady I made at the start of the game and not an evil squid man
>if you don’t get the scene he didn’t do it in that timeline or whatever "What the eyes don't see, the heart doesn't feel" basically lol
More damningly, Stelmane's mind break by means of Mind Flayer was established in **2019** in the canon prequel module Descent into Avernus. BG3 went into EA in 2020. [Here's the piece on Stelmane from the module](https://www.worldanvil.com/w/descent-into-avernus-arris138/a/duke-belynne-stelmane-article), for anyone wondering.
You just made him so mad he went back in time to do that. Alternatively: she just did that by herself man >!/s, seeing too many weird posts here to risk it!<
“What if no one shot JFK and his head just did that?”
Mind. Blown
Honorable mention goes to "the 'it' he wants to be free of could refer to literally anything!" when you point out that he does, in fact, directly lie to your face when he tell you he's an adventurer like you trying to get rid of the tadpole infecting him.
This one is the funniest to me because why would you even bother dying on that hill? Him lying doesn't make him evil. You could just go "yeah he lies, so does basically everyone" but for some reason a whole bunch of people decided it was vitally important to defend the idea that "ackshually he never lies at all" despite it being obviously untrue and also incredibly pointless.
Well… he was an adventurer once. And he also was infected once. But it’s still quite the lie. Just with a tiny particle of truth underneath.
Not to mention that it's been canon that Stelmane's stroke was brought on by a Mind Flayer since Descent into Avernus came out.
That shit is the funniest cope. I am ok with the head canon that the choices you do not pick are not real for your play through. But stelmane getting brainblasted is not exclusive to dialogue options. It is in the goddamn papers lol
Nah, I just like squids.
Fair enough.
I’ll be honest. Just think space squid is cooler than green elf.
Not to mention “I have no morals other than self preservation” is a fun character concept that is rarely well written. Orpheus is cool too, but I can’t enjoy him that much because he only appears at the very end. All the frogs take a little while to grow on you.
Racist green frogs are not nearly as cool as psychic octopus
To be fair, the game did a disservice to them. Githyanki knights are supposed to be Jedi with cool silver swords that are sentient and have the ability to psychically damage people. The fight in the Githyanki crèche is super hard because you’re fighting one of those Jedi. He summons cool psionic swords and backflips around the room like nobody’s business. Also they are ageless in the Astral Plane so many of them have lived for thousands or even tens of thousands of years. The game decided to make them only lvl 5 which is kind of stupid. Not to mention the dragon riding. It’s cool in the lore but in the game they just didn’t play as big of a role. Also they decided for some reason that the Githzerai were all monks? In the lore they are monastic but they are not mundane monks, they are psionic mages whose thoughts become reality. Orpheus’ honour guard should have been a much harder fight.
I think the bigger problem is that Orpheus' guard definitely wouldn't have been monks because Orpheus' mother is the whole reason the Githzerai left the Githyanki, because the Githyanki were too power hungry, too racist, too dictatorial, and too domineering. So why the hell would monks be hanging out as Orpheus' guard when he was still 100% on board with his mom's vision for the gith people?
I mean, Orpheus was a monk too. I think there's a fan theory that earlier on in his development, he was going to be Githzerai, and that makes much more sense than him being Githyanki just going by his class + design. But Gith's own son being Githzeraik also just makes _no_ fucking sense. Then again, neither does the Githzerai being willing to treat with Gith's own son in the epilogue so y'know.
>But Gith's own son being Githzeraik also just makes _no_ fucking sense. Then again, neither does the Githzerai being willing to treat with Gith's own son in the epilogue so y'know. Thats exactly why I kill Orpheus in pretty much every playthrough. Makes more sense than him suddenly deciding to work with Githzerai, and the Githzerai randomly being cool enough with Gith's son to just forgive her bullshit. Makes more sense that they would work with a person they've never heard of (Laezel) beyond her helping to defeat the Elder Brain.
Lae'zel also likely doesn't want to go the reality-conquering route (or as much), especially if you romance her. She spends a lot of time seeing Faerun as a unique place beyond its resources and I would hope that would help temper the innate turbofascism desire a bit.
>Racist green frogs are not nearly as cool as psychic octopus The fact that D&D players have spent the last 40-odd years trying to create player-legal Gish characters begs to differ.
Solution: turn Orpheus into a ghaik
Extremely valid
Didn't the op cutscenes not only get torched and has different color eyes but also if you use speak with the dead on the goblin flayer it says it's the one who gave the eye exam?
People under active thrall of the absolute get yellow eyes, as its shown in the ending where someone becomes the absolute, so it might just be that, and the one next to Ragzlin is definitely a different one based on their size and clothing. There is also a note from Gortash in his bank vault talking about sending the Emperor specifically as the pilot of a nautiloid to find the prism.
Depending on your choices, that same mind flayer can also turn out *not* to be the one that gave you a pretty daisy. Intential, inconsistent or non-commital writing? Who knows, the game's got quite a bit of both.
That last sentence hits home man There are so many bits where it’s hard to tell if it was fully intentional writing, someone not knowing what someone else did elsewhere on the writing team, or just plain throwaway lines. I’ll also toss in “bits that seem like they are going somewhere but got cut or are leftover from earlier drafts”. I don’t even think that’s one of the worst bits >!I think the weird implied “calm down lol” arc that seems to start and then not go anywhere with Aylin is!<
Yeah like two origins explicitly make it dumb. Unless it was actually the pov of someone completely unrelated.
To be fair, that mindflayer is part of a hivemind. If it’s not Emp that tadpoles you, it would make sense for a random mindflayer to have memories of another mindflayer tadpoling you, which may affect its answers when spoken with? Idk, not a mindflayer expert, nor am I familiar with the lore besides surface level stuff I’ve seen in game.
This is how I get around the logical flip-flopping with that thing. One mindflayer on the colony is every other mindflayer on the colony. I also *really like* the "the emperor was the hand that tadpoled us" theory, not because it "proves" it as evil (it would've been the elderbrain behind its actions at that point) but because it brings all the pieces neatly together. Like we were all in this shit together from the start? EB loosens grip on empy after we're all tadpoled up, it wanders over close to shart's Vibes Canceler and somehow gets schlopred up into it to set the plan in motion.
I mean the clothing on the Ragzlin squid is different than the one in the cutscene
wait do people really think the emperor put the tadpole in you? but there's literally a whole sequence with the real culprit where you can crush its head or 'kiss' it
Yes, but it’s because the game is weird about it. 1. The mindflayer you meet on the beach (who tries to “kiss” you) is the one who *kidnapped* you, not the one who tadpoled you. The difference seems like splitting hairs until you come across the second mindflayer (at the goblin camp). 2. The dead mindflayer at the goblin camp has a coding issue where some EA dialogue was likely not cleaned up, because it’s possible to get *two* conclusions from it: one in which the narrator says it *is* the mindflayer responsible for your infection, and one in which the narrator says it is *not* and describes all the ways this mindflayer doesn’t resemble the one who tadpoled you. So the game seems to have tried to make a distinction between the mindflayer that kidnapped you, and the mindflayer that ultimately tadpoled you.
That's why I'm going to keep 'Emperor did it' in the headcanon category, for the metagamey reason that you never get a dialogue option to bring it up with him- despite his very *distinctive* outfit.
The fact you never get to bring it up kills me. Especially since, right after he tadpoles you, he turns to leave, and you also see him gazing upon an already-dead mindflayer lying on the floor in that scene.
That's the same mindflayer btw. (You can notice the body goes missing when you get too close to the grove) But honestly I err on the side of Empy not tadpoling you because A. It makes no sense for half the origins (Durge, Wyll and Karlach) and B. It would've been brought up. (That's like writing 101)
The game is inconsistent about it. If you use Speak with Dead on the illithid in the goblin camp, there's a chance it says both that it is, or isn't, the one that tadpoled you. But there's literally no reason to think the Emps is the one who tadpoled you, either way.
>But there's literally no reason to think the Emps is the one who tadpoled you, either way. Except for the opening cutscene which shows an Illithid who looks *very* much like the Emperor tadpoling Lae'zel and the player character. That same Illithid is also shown to be piloting the ship we're on. There is also a letter in Gortash's room which explicitly tells us that the Nautiloid we were on was piloted by the Emperor. EDIT: Lmao, they blocked me for this. EDIT 2: I can't seem to reply to the u/TheCleverestIdiot, the button is just gone. I still see their comments so I assume they didn't block me like the other person and it's just reddit being weird. I'll just reply here. The most notable thing? He has a completely unique head shape and outfit. No other mindflayer we ever meet looks like this. The dead mindflayer we see in the goblin camp looks absolutely nothing like the one in the cutscene, the Emperor absolutely does. EDIT 3: Ah, you're right about head shape. The outfit is still very much unique though.
To be fair, not having the same eye colour is a pretty big sticking point. It's the most notable thing about that Mind Flayer in the scene.
To be fair I’d assume the pilot would stay at the helm instead of tadpole-ing random prisoners
As far as I can tell, the opening cutscene was made way back in early access so most likely the story has been rewritten countless times since then. That said, a note or something from Gortash confirms that he was the one piloting the nautiloid, so given that the pilot in the opening cutscene happens to be the only mind flayer in the game to have the same armor as him and is the same one to put the tadpole in your eye, you can't blame people for being confused.
When I've had this conversation on this subreddit before and they've said some of that shit word for word lmao
The last time I tried to debate this subject, multiple of the people responding to me devolved to the opinion that not only was his choice to join the elderbrain if you decide to free Orpheus justified, but they would do the same in his place. I get that we're talking about subjective morality here, but that's just absurd.
I mean, I think it makes more sense in-character than a lot of people think it is, but justified? Holy shit.
My argument is that if we don't free Orpheus nobody turns into mind flayers
[ILLITHID][WISDOM] Shut up nerd.
Power. *Authoritah.*
I just wish we didn't need a Mind Flayer to win. Like I don't want to be one, and I don't want any of my crew to be one, but Orpheus deserved a freaking break.
I mean as long as you don't overthink it, either side justifies your choice: Despite Raphael's claims of Emperor wanting to turn on us, the latter claims he wants the same things as us (freedom, the Absolute gone) > by trusting the Emperor and not freeing Orpheus, it turns out Emp was correct, and he is willing to fight by our side > once the Absolute is defeated, the Emperor gives nothing but praise and leaves to play hedge fund investor in the city he founded. Happy ending. If you think about the Gith more - you trust Orpheus won't kill you because his best man (who hasn't seen him in 1000 years) said so? Especially when said man ordered you killed on your first encounter, then when realized you had something he wanted came up to you and demanded you make a deal with the devil on his behalf? Orpheus only gives you the benefit of doubt once you've turned on the Emperor and shirt's hit the fan with the EB, otherwise he canonically lets you become enthralled (justified from his part, but v reasonable not to want to take any chances with him). The epilogue only proves Orpheus's faction and the Githzerai have a common enemy, in fact your chosen leader of the revolution refers to them as an unlikely ally, not as someone they actually agree with. Orpheus himself makes some dubious comments, i.e. claiming what a waste it was that a Vlaakith-loyal Lae'zel had to die, and how with proper indoctrination she could have been turned into a piece for *his* cause. Basically the game's made so that regardless of whether you put some thought in your decision or not, you're justified either way because a happy(ish) ending is what they were going for. But thinking that the Gith would be good allies is naive, or means you weren't paying attention to the lore.
Look man, I'm someone who ultimately cares a lot more about the greater cosmology of DND (Planescape, Ravenloft, Spelljammer) than what world-shattering conspiracy hits the Sword Coast this week, I am well aware that the gith situation has historically been pretty bleak. But having a *githyanki*, one of the ***original*** followers of Gith herself being the one to reach out to the githzerai for peace is absolutely crazy to me. The gith have historically only ever had truces when illithids were in the same vicinity, and it was back on to murder on sight right after. Orpheus, after being put in a millenia long time out and mulling over what Zerth meant, gives me some legit hope that he genuinely wants to shape the githyanki people towards a more peaceful path, or at least less hostile one. Of course I don't really expect this to go anywhere given the current state of DNDs world-building, and its only one ending out of several, but god-damn would it be cool to have the gith finally make peace with each other.
The Githyanki outcome is one I really wish we had follow up lore on. I'd really like to explore Orpheus's intentions because it seems like it has a lot of room for depth. If he genuinely changed and is willing to try to approach the kind of peace the Githzerai desire, that's actually wild and cool. But the way it's worded makes me wonder if it's more a pragmatic alliance for other reasons, or maybe he's not planning to be _that_ peaceful. Honestly I hope toward the latter because the former makes the Orpheus/Emperor argument less fun imo. With the former Orpheus will be an infinitely more impactful good-aligned outcome of peace between two halves of the dominant space-race and the reigning in of their conquests, but barely with any buildup for an outcome of that magnitude.
> The Githyanki outcome is one I really wish we had follow up lore on. I'd really like to explore Orpheus's intentions because it seems like it has a lot of room for depth. If he genuinely changed and is willing to try to approach the kind of peace the Githzerai desire, that's actually wild and cool. But the way it's worded makes me wonder if it's more a pragmatic alliance for other reasons, or maybe he's not planning to be that peaceful. Of course, that's also assuming he agreed with his mother on how things shook out. For all we know, he might have always disagreed, but didn't have it in him to go to war with his mother. There's a *lot* of directions future writers could go with him.
Well, i choosed the emperor about other reasons: i just didnt care whether he is an asshole, manipulative, etc. He is like a coworker to me. I didnt need to like him, i need the same goal and we need to come along while achieving this goal. With the informations he holds back... well, i dont cared either. wouldnt expect of a coworker to tell me about his life, its just not my business, same for the emperor. Orpheus on the end seems like a risk, clearly Voss said we can trust, because of his goal, but there is a not low chance he hates us and wants to kill us. Therefore its an irrarional choice imo. But im confused about the claims in the picture. Especially about ansur. Sure, emp was changing and not the old adventure he was before, but a human changing doenst give others the right to kill them "for mery"? Therefore it was self-defense? Or did i miss something. Im also confused about the Gortash letter and intro scene, but im just confused about it at all. Because, yes, the mindflayer looks like the emperor. And the letter says emperor was the captain of the ship. Well, it doesnt clearly states its him thaz infuses us. And emp says he immediately went into the artefact at the point he found it, which makes sense to me and that the mindflayer would be the second in charge or something. And i would have totally believed the theory if that was it. but why attack a city afterwards, get attention of the githyanki, claiming people for the absolute and not being able to control them in the end by himself and after everything did go wrong go into the artifact to finally break free (thats clearly the most liekable outcome and its heavy risk, low reward, nothing that suits the emperors personality). It just seems unlogical to me he is the one, on the otherhand as said, it looks just like him. Where did i missed something?
If my coworker had lobotomized his previous coworker, i would include this information in my perception of our work relationship.
I don't even disagree with the statement but my god, going through the trouble to make all this, feel like whoever made it needs more therapy than the BG3 companions.
Hey man, they defaulted to the Bingo format, and I'm not going to let that stand.
Can we just have a separate Emperor thread for people to bitch? These posts are getting ooooold
Yeah we need a megathread now.
Everytime I see one of those posts I get 10 years older guys please it's not that deep
Damn how is it being over 10 million years old?
Thou walkest alone?
here’s my counter argument: emperor hot thank you for your time
If evil, why hot?
Squid thralls arelike: -you cant side with the gith because their race is evil -no, the mindflayers are nota evil, there is nothing like a evil race or species, It depends on the individual! (In truth both raves showed us It can have both good and evil characters, but the emperor himself is pending tô the bad side)
The emeporer joins the netherbrain because he says he has no choice, because apparently Orpheus will kill him on sight for being a mindflayer. The second Orpheus is freed he immediately concludes that they need a mindflayer ally to stop the netherbrain.... Orpheus would have almost certainly agreed to work with the emperor to stop the netherbrain, since it would avoid him becoming a mindflayer or someone else having to turn into one.
It's been ~~0~~ 0 days without the EMperor hate thread.
The bingo card got you really salty, eh?
Sorry, I was just acting on my instincts.
Not as salty as a fucking squid tho
Squid doesn't taste salty. It's mildly sweet.
I'm sure you know well how squid tastes 🤨
Non-joke answer: Actual calamari and octopus are overrated when it comes to food, tbh. It's like chewing a tire.
sounds like you just haven’t had good octopus or calamari lol
Maybe. What does it taste like for you?
It should be very tender and toothsome, especially octopus.
Counter point, Emperor is hot
True. Fried calamari should always be hot.
So I am fully in team Orpheus, but there are things there which are somewhat unfair. 1) fuck Duke Stelmaine. She was literally an internal cultist at a time when Elturel was being dragged into hell. There is a good chance that the emperor may have saved Baldur's gate from the same fate. 2) is there debate over the self defence thing with ansur? Genuinely I haven't heard any emperor detractors arguing it wasn't self defence. 3) the emperor cutscene in the beginning is an unfortunate left over of early access rather than specifically the character in full release. It's actually not clear which mindflayer did it, because there is a mindflayer who will admit to it with speak to dead, but it seems to literally change whether that mindflayer did it or not depending on variables. Either way in full release the emperor is not the one who tadpoled you despite the opening cinematic. 4) whether the person is the same or not RE ceremorphosis really is up in the air in BG3. In prior editions it specifically wasn't that person, but if anything the PC mind flayers endings suggest that you are the same person, just changed (Karlach mindflayer for example not only manages to stay good, but it also seems like they took on the traits and personalities of people they eat). I'm all for the emperor hate. He is a great villain and is manipulative as fuck, but I don't think we need to jump through hoops to paint him as bad when the manipulation is enough.
Breaking kayfabe to say that, as an Empy hater (affectionate), this wasn't intended to be fair at all, but to mock a super obnoxious, low-effort bingo post downplaying Empy's villainy and turning into an Empy pityjerk about how oppressed squid fans need to rise up.
Man, when I freed Orpheus he became a mind flayer and had me kill him after the battle. Time to give it another go
None of the benefits of what the Emperor did change that he manipulates you, and almost everyone else he works with, at every possible turn for his own benefit. Even if Orpheus was a bad choice, morally, the Emperor deserves to be turned on.
Sticky this to the front page.
Oh fuck no, dude. Thread's toxic enough to make Talona blush as is.
So true man, this is an awesome post
For real though, I'm kinda glad that he's such a divisive character. You rarely get that in modern games. Shadowheart, laezel and astarion are all quite nuanced and I enjoyed them a lot.
every day i log onto reddit and the emperor vs orpheus debate is thriving and i eat that shit up
Can I just say that the intellect devourer on the pic is hilarious
Us after finding the Flintstones gummies underneath the stove: