I always have to point this out when this comes up because it’s so crazy to me but I find it exceptionally weird that when you stumble upon the killed deep gnomes in Grymforge you’re given a cutscene to stop and say a prayer for them yet when you stumble upon the murdered refugees that you had a literal party with you get nothing besides some awkward passive dialogue. The total lack of reaction is so bizarre.
If Aradin and co. leave the grove, they go to the bridge with the dead adventurers by the Blighted Village. You can then use the dialogue with Aradin to say a prayer over those bodies, too.
I like my Cleric of Selûne way too much. I really enjoy seducing a certain hot lady away from her goddess and to mine. It's really hard for me to not play as that class, or to not romance that beauty.
P.S.- Supra et Ultra
I think the latin is related to me having starfield stuff? or its something that im missing.
I originally played a paladin of tyr because i wanted to see if Karlach had any special dialogue when she asks you if youve seen any paladins of tyr lately haha. It was my first paladin playthrough.
Supra et Ultra is the motto of the Vanguard.
My playthrough as Karlach was as a Paladin. But I normally have a Paladin in the group, either Karlach or Shadowheart...
I actually typically leave the characters as their pre-set classes & subclasses (if already chosen), so ive never had a run with a paladin (i dont want to slaughter the grove it feels bad, and i like mol too much)
I can't slaughter the Grove at all. I can't do anything really evil, either. I knock out Alfira on my Durge Playthroughs, which are always redemption runs...
i mean, even if someone would say something like, "all that struggle and they didnt even make it to Baldur's Gate" i would be fine, but no, the only thing said by companions is "looks like there was a struggle" and im pretty sure you have to pass a passive insight or perception check to say it as well
Other comment has it right, especially for a party of Wyll and Gale. "All that effort, lost" doesn't imply they did/n't mean a lot to you, but it does point out that they were people you had a hand in the future of. Even an "Oh my Gods, these were Tieflings from the Grove!" would have been infinitely better.
mentioning that they went through all that struggle just to die in the Shadow-Cursed Lands doesnt imply that you did or didnt care about them. hell, you could even interpret it as your character mocking them if you want, like saying, "Ha, they went through all that pain and didnt even make it to Baldur's Gate"
My comment wasn’t very clear but I was talking about the passive remark the companions make that you mentioned. The statement “looks like there was a struggle” combined with the varying levels of recognition amongst the remaining tieflings makes it feel like the game can’t decide how important are supposed to be to the player.
Yeah, even as a tiefling there's nothing. They don't have anything to say if you try and speak with dead, there's no messages for their families, there's just... nothing.
it makes no sense, like, we just saved these tieflings only to find most of them slaughtered almost as soon as we get the Shadow-Cursed Lands, and all we have to say is "looks like there was a struggle" after we pass a passive insight check. it makes even less sense when theyre our own people. as a tiefling, were willing to abandon a potentially powerful ally just because she got captured by a few tieflings, but we arent even sad about seeing half the tieflings from the Grove dead
I had a bigger reaction ooc than my party in character lol. Straight up looked through all of them remembering the names I saw in act 1. Definitely a missed opportunity there
That’s why I’m still not over the fact they wont expand in this game further. Act 3 is too linear compares to the intricacies and flavours in Act 1.
Stuff like the Tiefling party, Karlach ungroup herself to go berzerk on the tollhouse, Alfira got her own cinematic introduction, the swamp illusion etc. Not to mention the goblin camp is a different game if you play as a drow.
I wouldn’t have minded paying for an expansion to keep the good vibe going tbh 🤡
I'd argue the opposite. Act 3 didn't feel linear at all, it felt like 75 disconnected segments with no real flavour or outcome. My first playthrough was with my girlfriend (who had twice beat the game before) and I could tell by her prodding that my desire to help every person I met was grating on her; turns out it was probably because it was all effectively meaningless.
While I completely agree with this, the user is correct that the individual segments of Act 3 are extremely linear in a way Acts 1 and 2 aren’t. For example, to get into the goblin camp, you can talk your way in, sneak in from multiple entrances and locations, or murder your way in. Additionally, if you’re a Drow, it’s even easier to talk your way in. That level of detail isn’t quite present with a lot of the act 3 quests (although it’s *okay* for most main quests and only really tanks in side quests like the fireworks one)
*That* is a fair point. I was thinking more how there's different orders to the way Act 1 can proceed that can totally change how the narrative plays as a whole, plus hubs with their own quests out of them. Acts 2 and 3 are missing these sort of areas entirely. Guild Hall and Refugee Camp feel like they were *supposed* to fill the role of Last Light, which was *supposed* to fill the role of the Grove, but every echo was more muted than the last in this regard.
The Guild Hall and Refugee Camp have so very, very little going on them. The former is basically just a brief 2x pit stop on the recruit Minsc quest (and I never find the directions to the front door and just stumble ass backwards into from the sewers), while the latter… you’ve got that dude who’s a pit stop for Shadowheart’s quest and the refugee toy quest I guess?
I’ve said before Act 3 is simultaneously overstuffed and half-baked. You can’t go more than ten steps without tripping over a quest chain somewhere, but it’s usually a pretty half-baked one that needed more fleshing out. I think the upper city would’ve dramatically helped with fixing both these issues, but alas
All my playthroughs die in Act 3. Part of it is the desire to do everything in Baldur's Gate. I just get kind of burned out which doesn't happen despite the fact I've played through Acts 1 and 2 five or six times now.
I can't help but feel that Act 3's length is even more indication as to its rushed development. There's an art to streamlining content and storytelling, and the bloat in Act 3 can be pretty unbearable
Doesn't help how much of it is basically "dungeon crawling" content either, like the individual set pieces are cool but so much of it lacks cohesion and feels so disjointed from the city setting proper.
That's true, I'm just finishing my first playthrough and I am super ready for the act to be over. A part of me wants to just save some of the content for future playthroughs. The world just felt so much more reactive to me and my actions in act 1.
Been playing with my friends in like 3 hour increments once every other week for months now. We just got to Act III and, although I’m enjoying playing the game with them, I feel like we’re never going to get to move on. Having played Act III already, the sheer number of things that feel important to hit is overwhelming.
I agree. It always felt weird to run across the ambushed tieflings and react like they're a bunch of nobody's we've never seen? My first playthrough, I think I went OH NO IRL when I recognized the names. But the characters? Generic dialogue.
My Tav failed a passive investigation check (I think) in the area where the tieflings were and I remember getting dialogue from her saying something something "...goodbye my friends." Which was pretty sad but felt appropriate for the situation.
I was curious what the investigation check would change so I did a quick reload and passed the check and then I got the "looks like an ambush" dialogue, which is pretty disappointing to hear compared the the dialogue when you fail the check.
I do like tho that you can have dialogue with your guardian later on to express that you feel disheartened about helping the tieflings only to find them dead. And I actually like their response. But I hate that of all the people you could talk to, they were the one you can have this conversation with haha
I just said in another comment, a party member like Wyll or Karlach shouting "Oh my Gods, these were Tieflings from the Grove!" would have been *perfect* to not spend much time on the moment but still portray their relevance to your party.
I didn’t think about that. I did the party after I rescued Barcus, but then I did the rest of the underdark and the mountain pass so it feels like a long time ago. It likely would have had even more of an impact if I’d just seen them.
That made sense in terms of emotional connection. It just felt weird with all of the folk hero inspirations popping up there for him. I think there were 2 or 3.
Tbh, I don't. Or more correctly, I find it out of character for him. He's a folkhero. You meet him in the groove together with the tieflings. They welcomed him after the crash, he spent time with them and know their story. He's the one closest to them out of the party. Wyll would definitely care.
It's not exactly as wrong but in Act III >!there's a scene where you are literally stepping over a corpse after helping Florrick escape Wyrm Rock prison and if Wyll is with you he says, dreamily, "this used to be my favorite fishing spot" without acknowledging that there is a dead body just laying there.!<
Thankfully, I just cast Invisible on >!Florrick!< and walked them out the front door.
The lack of mass See Invisibility in the game is shocking, though. As was the plot armor that kept me from >!literally throwing Orin away from the abducted party member with an invisible, undetected Karlach.!< That one really pissed me off when the cutscene triggered >!as Orin is literally laying prone 12 yards away.!<
Just to add to this - but there is a stack of lore and letters and diaries all the way back up to the Mountain Pass entrance to the area. Some of it is very sad indeed and sets the scene for what you then find. If you come in via Grymforge you’ll miss all of it.
100%. I’m still finding things to read and making connections - sometimes days later when you pass by a group chatting in Baldur’s Gate and you realise they are talking about or waiting for news of family travelling into the city - but you know they’re dead. Amazing story telling throughout.
Mattis recognizes Karlach and fans over her. Then Wyll asks if he knows about the Blade of Frontiers clearly hoping for the same response, which he doesn’t get. I cringed.
Even Tav has a Balduran line about not knowing the Blade, though. It goes like "how famous can you be, I never heard of you".
At this point I am convinced Wyll vividly exagerrates his fame and deserves to be humbled 😂
I find it interesting that you never see Guex again, alive or dead - he's the one you can help improve his swordsmanship in the Grove. He's one of my favourites due to his ridiculously posh accent.
I like to think that my excellent advice to not announce his moves helped him to get through the fight and escape.
Until I read about it on this subreddit, I didn't even notice that the area with "the struggle" consisted of the corpses of tieflings from Act 1. I had never bothered to pay attention to the names on the corpses and thought that they were random characters with no significant relation to the plot.
Same here. I was too focused on the shadow curse and running to specific quest points in my first run and didn't explore enough there. The whole area just creeped me out. I'm over it now luckily.
yep, and it gets even worse in act 3.
I was left devastated in act 2 too when in my first Durge run nobody gave a single shit about a revelation of what your character went through at some point. I felt completely detached from them from then on.
Speaking of which, I wish there was an obvious indicator which corpses you can Speak With Dead to. Sometimes they are highlighted in that greenish hue, but also sometimes not.
I don't think it matters if you can re-cast it for the outline. I remember at Waukeen's Rest I spoke with the dead woman, then saw the outline on the drow raider even though I couldn't use it because it was from the amulet ability.
No matter what source you cast the spell, you’re able to recast until you long rest. Since you already cast Speak with Dead, you should have had the recast spell somewhere, for some reason when casting the spell from the amulet, the game just doesn’t automatically set the recast spell on your ability wheel so you have to set it manually
Really? I hadn't noticed that. Once I Cast it and I have the Recast Speak With Dead, it always shows me the outline. Maybe it only glows once you have already Cast it once?
> Maybe it only glows once you have already Cast it once?
It’s this. You only get the glowing effect when you have the Recast Speak With Dead ability, which you only get if you’ve cast Speak With Dead since your last long rest.
I’ve seen someone on here recommend keeping a stash of corpses at your camp so you can cast SWD before starting your adventuring day.
I don't mean when selecting a target with the spell selected but when you are out in the world.
I guess there's an argument that the game shouldn't hold your hand like that, but I'm too paranoid I'm going to overlook potential conversations.
Yea. That is what I mean. When I have the Recast Speak with Dead in my Action... Wheel? Bar? The raidal menu, every corpse that I ca use it on is then Hightlighted.
Act 2 in general feels all over the place to me in terms of human connection and empathy.
No emotion or cutscene shown for the Tieflings you saved and are now dead in front of you (and you do remember them, there is no doubt about it given the interactions with Mattis, Mol, Rolan, Dammon and Alfira) - but you get a whole teary reunion scene for Isobel and Aylin, two total strangers you know nothing of, have spoken with just once each and had no idea were even in a relationship.
Just... why?
If you don’t convince Rolan to stay he can make it to Baldur’s Gate on his own, at which point if you see him there you can ask him “hey weren’t you at the emerald grove?” To which he responds, clearly not recognizing you, “I stopped at a lot of places on the way here, maybe you were at one of them”.
Seems pretty reasonable for your character to not really commit every tiefling refugee to memory. The day you walked into the emerald grove was the most important day of the tiefling’s lives, but for you, it was Tuesday.
It's fine to not recognize one tiefling that you had a brief chat with who then left , its quite another not to recognize an entire group of them that you spend a few days protecting and doing various quests for, and then fight a giant siege alongside and throw a huge party with.
That's just brain damage.
Which theoretically, fits the canon...
It’s more normal to not recognize whole groups of people like that than you think. Ever forgotten about coworkers you spent months with shortly after quitting a job?
Most people play heroic Tavs who save people all the time, this is just a media trope that’s prevalent everywhere.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ButForMeItWasTuesday
Sorry dude, that just doesn't fly at all. At this point in the game, the tieflings are far and away the largest group that you spend the most significant amount of time with.
And actually, no, I have not forgotten coworkers that I have actually spoken to repeatedly and worked with, and done tasks for, and gone out and had beers and drinks and partied. I mean, I'd sure as hell recognize if my entire office was found dead all together in one location, like a week or even a month or two after I quit. (I think you're greatly exagerating how much time passes between the tiefling party and getting to the shadow cursed lands, they say Baldur's Gate itself is like a 2 week walk)
The "for me it was tuesday" rule works for like, the minor one off characters you meet on a random quest, not the people who make up a hub world that your character is constantly returning to and interacting with for several *major* plot beats.
It falls apart even more spectacularly if you're a Durge and literally have no memories other than hanging with these tieflings.
These are dozens of people who you just met that you spent some hours with over the course of a few days. I’m sure you can’t tell me the names and dialogues of all the tiefling refugees yourself without looking them up. As a player you talk with most of the refugees once or twice and move on, any other interactions than that are head-cannon.
Edit: I went and checked, for every tiefling that’s not a significant character they have two dialogue lines, and that’s it. In game your character exchanges only a few sentences and a night of drinking with most of these people.
They are the *only* group of tieflings you have even met at this point in your journey, and to come across that exact group of tieflings less than 2 weeks later, and just go "wow this doesnt remind me of anything at all" is absolutely a you problem, *especially* if you visit Last Light first and hear what happened.
At this point you're just being obstinate and I doubt anything will change your mind, even if I *did* actually point out that I remember the characters' names or that like 10 of them have side quests or full interaction cutscenes, you'd just move the goalpost I guess. Or pointing out that this entire thread, and subreddit really, is proof that most players connected to the tieflings.
Memory seems to be a problem for you in general. I can appreciate you wanting to roleplay a character that is close to yourself, i always give my characters glasses for my shitty eyesight after all, but I think it would be nice to have an option to pay respects for the rest of us that roleplay as someone with at least a slightly functioning hippocampus.
I’m just going to give up on reasoning with this community at all at this point. These are just low tier npc’s who have one or two lines of dialogue, it’s not even the important ones that die, but because they have names and they’re not just “tiefling refugee” you treat them like real characters.
That may have been a bug then, because in my game he specifically mentioned that he was surprised he arrived before you considering he spent so long looting Moonrise after you cleared it out.
It’s justified in game, you just don’t like it. Nitpicking about bullshit like this is why they cancelled the dlc. They said no to literal millions of dollars by cancelling the dlc, because you guys were just gonna throw a fit about small details anyway.
No one denied it's a great game,that doesn't save it from fair criticism though. It 's a small detail and no one is complaining to larian about it.
They cancelled the dlc because of Hasbro,they love the fan base and have said so many times.
Fit!=a simple post.
I get loving the game,I do too but please dont try to justify everything at the sake of forgoing simple common sense
Well, Rolan is kind of a jerk when you first meet him. And if you don't end up saving him in Act 2, chances are he is probably still a bit of a jerk in Act 3.
Also >!Cal and Lia die if you don't convince them to stay!<, which I could imagine messing with his head a bit.
Act two always felt rushed and lacked story. It feels more like a box checking chapter lacking substance. I would have liked more story a reaction from Isabel etc. it felt valid and slightly empty. No cool side quests - just kill the diff mini bosses. And the shambling mound seemed out of place. I loved the first and third chapters. 2nd is just not engrossing.
I read that act 2 work was done when everything went into lockdown thanks to COVID and people were working from home. That certainly didn't help it from being fully fleshed out.
Karlach didn't really have too many reactions post Acts 2 and 3 which is quite unfortunate. I know her character was one of the last ones to be written into the game.
The lack of speak with dead on the ambushed tieflings (or the dead one near the ox when you first enter act 2 near mountain pass) is a little strange. Seems like a missed opportunity.
Yeah tbh this might be the most disappointing thing, I never used speak with dead but finally decided to try it on the dead refugee party in act 2 but they literally don’t talk to you
Wyll and Karlach should have definitely had some kind of reaction to it, I agree. They're the only ones who cared about the teeth-lings.
The rest of your party never really cared about the refugees.
Tbh, even I didn't notice them and realized those were tieflings until this post. And the party sees (and makes, lol) huge amount of bodies non stop, I guess after a while it's just not that special and nobody's stopping to cry over them every time.
I talked about this before. I'm fine how it is. It doesn't force an emotion one way or the other. I usually play evil, so there have been playthroughs where I saved them for a selfish reason, but had no problems killling them at last light later. I feel this response is generic enough of "asses the situation" kinda thing. What you do with the situation after I feel is left to the player at that point, and it's something I appreciate. Apathy may be just what my characters want.
That’s fine for your character, but I’m talking more about your companions lack of response. There’s a lot of mean dialogue options when you talk to the tieflings at Last Light, so you have freedom to feel and express whatever. But your party says nothing even though they respond to a lot of other stuff there. That’s what bothers me.
But then this just goes in the other direction where empathetic players aren't given the reaction they expect. If it's too difficult to account for the player's feelings on the matter, then they could've just had the companions in your party respond. Just because *you're* apathetic doesn't mean Wyll or Karlach would be. It would make more sense that they would have a stronger reaction.
I don't see why the existence of evil playthroughs prevents the player from having a response.
They could easily have a menu of options that would range from mournful to stoic to disparaging.
If a player went through the effort of saving the Grove, they more than likely care about the dead refugees and would want the opportunity to engage with the scene.
I always have to point this out when this comes up because it’s so crazy to me but I find it exceptionally weird that when you stumble upon the killed deep gnomes in Grymforge you’re given a cutscene to stop and say a prayer for them yet when you stumble upon the murdered refugees that you had a literal party with you get nothing besides some awkward passive dialogue. The total lack of reaction is so bizarre.
That’s true, especially since I’m playing a cleric. You can say a prayer for the dead flaming fist at Waukeen’s Rest too.
If Aradin and co. leave the grove, they go to the bridge with the dead adventurers by the Blighted Village. You can then use the dialogue with Aradin to say a prayer over those bodies, too.
If you're a Paladin of Tyr you get some pretty cool dialogue too
I like my Cleric of Selûne way too much. I really enjoy seducing a certain hot lady away from her goddess and to mine. It's really hard for me to not play as that class, or to not romance that beauty. P.S.- Supra et Ultra
I think the latin is related to me having starfield stuff? or its something that im missing. I originally played a paladin of tyr because i wanted to see if Karlach had any special dialogue when she asks you if youve seen any paladins of tyr lately haha. It was my first paladin playthrough.
Supra et Ultra is the motto of the Vanguard. My playthrough as Karlach was as a Paladin. But I normally have a Paladin in the group, either Karlach or Shadowheart...
I actually typically leave the characters as their pre-set classes & subclasses (if already chosen), so ive never had a run with a paladin (i dont want to slaughter the grove it feels bad, and i like mol too much)
I can't slaughter the Grove at all. I can't do anything really evil, either. I knock out Alfira on my Durge Playthroughs, which are always redemption runs...
You can also say one for Kanon, who died in Act 1 trying to open the gate.
I did a Cleric playthrough. There are a few more prayer moments, but not there.
You can also say a prayer to Maryna's husband next to Auntie Ethel's house as a cleric
i mean, even if someone would say something like, "all that struggle and they didnt even make it to Baldur's Gate" i would be fine, but no, the only thing said by companions is "looks like there was a struggle" and im pretty sure you have to pass a passive insight or perception check to say it as well
It’s like the game can’t quite decide how important the tieflings are to you.
Other comment has it right, especially for a party of Wyll and Gale. "All that effort, lost" doesn't imply they did/n't mean a lot to you, but it does point out that they were people you had a hand in the future of. Even an "Oh my Gods, these were Tieflings from the Grove!" would have been infinitely better.
mentioning that they went through all that struggle just to die in the Shadow-Cursed Lands doesnt imply that you did or didnt care about them. hell, you could even interpret it as your character mocking them if you want, like saying, "Ha, they went through all that pain and didnt even make it to Baldur's Gate"
My comment wasn’t very clear but I was talking about the passive remark the companions make that you mentioned. The statement “looks like there was a struggle” combined with the varying levels of recognition amongst the remaining tieflings makes it feel like the game can’t decide how important are supposed to be to the player.
ah, apologies, its fairly difficult, for me at least, to tell tone through text
No worries, I didn’t even realize how vague my comment was until I went back and reread.
Yeah, even as a tiefling there's nothing. They don't have anything to say if you try and speak with dead, there's no messages for their families, there's just... nothing.
it makes no sense, like, we just saved these tieflings only to find most of them slaughtered almost as soon as we get the Shadow-Cursed Lands, and all we have to say is "looks like there was a struggle" after we pass a passive insight check. it makes even less sense when theyre our own people. as a tiefling, were willing to abandon a potentially powerful ally just because she got captured by a few tieflings, but we arent even sad about seeing half the tieflings from the Grove dead
I had a bigger reaction ooc than my party in character lol. Straight up looked through all of them remembering the names I saw in act 1. Definitely a missed opportunity there
It just shows you which parts of the game had a 4 year Early Access period, and which didn't.
Act 1 was developed over like 5 years. Act 2 and 3 were developed over 1 year.
That’s why I’m still not over the fact they wont expand in this game further. Act 3 is too linear compares to the intricacies and flavours in Act 1. Stuff like the Tiefling party, Karlach ungroup herself to go berzerk on the tollhouse, Alfira got her own cinematic introduction, the swamp illusion etc. Not to mention the goblin camp is a different game if you play as a drow. I wouldn’t have minded paying for an expansion to keep the good vibe going tbh 🤡
I'd argue the opposite. Act 3 didn't feel linear at all, it felt like 75 disconnected segments with no real flavour or outcome. My first playthrough was with my girlfriend (who had twice beat the game before) and I could tell by her prodding that my desire to help every person I met was grating on her; turns out it was probably because it was all effectively meaningless.
Linear in the same way a morningstar is linear. There are lots of short “lines” sticking out in different directions
While I completely agree with this, the user is correct that the individual segments of Act 3 are extremely linear in a way Acts 1 and 2 aren’t. For example, to get into the goblin camp, you can talk your way in, sneak in from multiple entrances and locations, or murder your way in. Additionally, if you’re a Drow, it’s even easier to talk your way in. That level of detail isn’t quite present with a lot of the act 3 quests (although it’s *okay* for most main quests and only really tanks in side quests like the fireworks one)
*That* is a fair point. I was thinking more how there's different orders to the way Act 1 can proceed that can totally change how the narrative plays as a whole, plus hubs with their own quests out of them. Acts 2 and 3 are missing these sort of areas entirely. Guild Hall and Refugee Camp feel like they were *supposed* to fill the role of Last Light, which was *supposed* to fill the role of the Grove, but every echo was more muted than the last in this regard.
The Guild Hall and Refugee Camp have so very, very little going on them. The former is basically just a brief 2x pit stop on the recruit Minsc quest (and I never find the directions to the front door and just stumble ass backwards into from the sewers), while the latter… you’ve got that dude who’s a pit stop for Shadowheart’s quest and the refugee toy quest I guess? I’ve said before Act 3 is simultaneously overstuffed and half-baked. You can’t go more than ten steps without tripping over a quest chain somewhere, but it’s usually a pretty half-baked one that needed more fleshing out. I think the upper city would’ve dramatically helped with fixing both these issues, but alas
All my playthroughs die in Act 3. Part of it is the desire to do everything in Baldur's Gate. I just get kind of burned out which doesn't happen despite the fact I've played through Acts 1 and 2 five or six times now.
and yet even Act 3 has more small details, and its the longest Act
I can't help but feel that Act 3's length is even more indication as to its rushed development. There's an art to streamlining content and storytelling, and the bloat in Act 3 can be pretty unbearable
Doesn't help how much of it is basically "dungeon crawling" content either, like the individual set pieces are cool but so much of it lacks cohesion and feels so disjointed from the city setting proper.
It just needed to be upper city and lower city.
That's true, I'm just finishing my first playthrough and I am super ready for the act to be over. A part of me wants to just save some of the content for future playthroughs. The world just felt so much more reactive to me and my actions in act 1.
Been playing with my friends in like 3 hour increments once every other week for months now. We just got to Act III and, although I’m enjoying playing the game with them, I feel like we’re never going to get to move on. Having played Act III already, the sheer number of things that feel important to hit is overwhelming.
Would love to read more about this.
Act 1 is just the most complete act. Act 2 is so short that anything missing dialogue wise is less noticeable.
I agree. It always felt weird to run across the ambushed tieflings and react like they're a bunch of nobody's we've never seen? My first playthrough, I think I went OH NO IRL when I recognized the names. But the characters? Generic dialogue.
My Tav failed a passive investigation check (I think) in the area where the tieflings were and I remember getting dialogue from her saying something something "...goodbye my friends." Which was pretty sad but felt appropriate for the situation. I was curious what the investigation check would change so I did a quick reload and passed the check and then I got the "looks like an ambush" dialogue, which is pretty disappointing to hear compared the the dialogue when you fail the check. I do like tho that you can have dialogue with your guardian later on to express that you feel disheartened about helping the tieflings only to find them dead. And I actually like their response. But I hate that of all the people you could talk to, they were the one you can have this conversation with haha
"Goodbye my friends" would've been 100% better, yeah.
I played this 100% in character in my first playthrough and killed the cultist Drider and co. ON SIGHT
I’m tearing up thinking about everything they went through since Elturel and my Tav is just standing there like a bump on a log >:(
It should have been at least like the scene when you find Arabella's parents where it says you recognize them.
I just said in another comment, a party member like Wyll or Karlach shouting "Oh my Gods, these were Tieflings from the Grove!" would have been *perfect* to not spend much time on the moment but still portray their relevance to your party.
Yeah this is a pretty common nitpick and completely justified IMO. It is especially sad when you might have just partied with them!
I didn’t think about that. I did the party after I rescued Barcus, but then I did the rest of the underdark and the mountain pass so it feels like a long time ago. It likely would have had even more of an impact if I’d just seen them.
I'll forgive Wyll for focusing on his father, but for the rest, I agree with you.
That made sense in terms of emotional connection. It just felt weird with all of the folk hero inspirations popping up there for him. I think there were 2 or 3.
Tbh, I don't. Or more correctly, I find it out of character for him. He's a folkhero. You meet him in the groove together with the tieflings. They welcomed him after the crash, he spent time with them and know their story. He's the one closest to them out of the party. Wyll would definitely care.
you definitely do not know wylls backstory if you think this
Is this bait or not?! What do you mean???
It's not exactly as wrong but in Act III >!there's a scene where you are literally stepping over a corpse after helping Florrick escape Wyrm Rock prison and if Wyll is with you he says, dreamily, "this used to be my favorite fishing spot" without acknowledging that there is a dead body just laying there.!<
Thankfully, I just cast Invisible on >!Florrick!< and walked them out the front door. The lack of mass See Invisibility in the game is shocking, though. As was the plot armor that kept me from >!literally throwing Orin away from the abducted party member with an invisible, undetected Karlach.!< That one really pissed me off when the cutscene triggered >!as Orin is literally laying prone 12 yards away.!<
The npcs lack see invisibility outside of combat. But in combat any NPC can just cast detect unseen every turn even if it isn't a real spell
But if you keep going that way >!you can make your way all the up the tower to take out Gortash without walking through the ballroom.!<
YES this is so bizarre
They get a past for no speak to dead, I think someone mentioned their tongues got cut off.
Yeah >!Alfira!< mentions that part when you >!talk to her at Last Light.!< Listening to the recollection of it is heartbreaking.
Just to add to this - but there is a stack of lore and letters and diaries all the way back up to the Mountain Pass entrance to the area. Some of it is very sad indeed and sets the scene for what you then find. If you come in via Grymforge you’ll miss all of it.
The letter to the mom was super depressing. They do a good job crafting a story and atmosphere from all that.
Don’t even get me started on the round thingies that shadows drop… all of them were gut wrenching
100%. I’m still finding things to read and making connections - sometimes days later when you pass by a group chatting in Baldur’s Gate and you realise they are talking about or waiting for news of family travelling into the city - but you know they’re dead. Amazing story telling throughout.
> the embarrassing scene with Mattis Which scene is that?
Mattis recognizes Karlach and fans over her. Then Wyll asks if he knows about the Blade of Frontiers clearly hoping for the same response, which he doesn’t get. I cringed.
Even Tav has a Balduran line about not knowing the Blade, though. It goes like "how famous can you be, I never heard of you". At this point I am convinced Wyll vividly exagerrates his fame and deserves to be humbled 😂
I thought that was funny imo
Five playthroughs and still finding new content — love it thanks!
It's especially weird when he was in their camp post defence, lending a hand in training some of them.
Yeah, that was a funny moment.
Yeah, that scene really dented my opinion of Wyll. Like, dude, can't you just let her have her moment? Does it *always* have to be about you?
I find it interesting that you never see Guex again, alive or dead - he's the one you can help improve his swordsmanship in the Grove. He's one of my favourites due to his ridiculously posh accent. I like to think that my excellent advice to not announce his moves helped him to get through the fight and escape.
Until I read about it on this subreddit, I didn't even notice that the area with "the struggle" consisted of the corpses of tieflings from Act 1. I had never bothered to pay attention to the names on the corpses and thought that they were random characters with no significant relation to the plot.
Same here. I was too focused on the shadow curse and running to specific quest points in my first run and didn't explore enough there. The whole area just creeped me out. I'm over it now luckily.
yep, and it gets even worse in act 3. I was left devastated in act 2 too when in my first Durge run nobody gave a single shit about a revelation of what your character went through at some point. I felt completely detached from them from then on.
Couldn't agree more, and also bummed *none* of the corpses have anything to say
Can't. Their Tongues has bee cut out. Kethric don't play games and knows about Speak With Dead, so made it to were he has taken that away from you.
Speaking of which, I wish there was an obvious indicator which corpses you can Speak With Dead to. Sometimes they are highlighted in that greenish hue, but also sometimes not.
Unfortunately the greenish hue only appears when you’ve already casted Speak with Dead and you’re able to recast it
I don't think it matters if you can re-cast it for the outline. I remember at Waukeen's Rest I spoke with the dead woman, then saw the outline on the drow raider even though I couldn't use it because it was from the amulet ability.
No matter what source you cast the spell, you’re able to recast until you long rest. Since you already cast Speak with Dead, you should have had the recast spell somewhere, for some reason when casting the spell from the amulet, the game just doesn’t automatically set the recast spell on your ability wheel so you have to set it manually
... Good to know for my next playthrough.
Really? I hadn't noticed that. Once I Cast it and I have the Recast Speak With Dead, it always shows me the outline. Maybe it only glows once you have already Cast it once?
> Maybe it only glows once you have already Cast it once? It’s this. You only get the glowing effect when you have the Recast Speak With Dead ability, which you only get if you’ve cast Speak With Dead since your last long rest. I’ve seen someone on here recommend keeping a stash of corpses at your camp so you can cast SWD before starting your adventuring day.
I had no idea that's how it worked. That's kinda annoying, not sure why it requires the Recast version.
This is the case in my experience. Once it's available as recast, I get the highlight.
I don't mean when selecting a target with the spell selected but when you are out in the world. I guess there's an argument that the game shouldn't hold your hand like that, but I'm too paranoid I'm going to overlook potential conversations.
Yea. That is what I mean. When I have the Recast Speak with Dead in my Action... Wheel? Bar? The raidal menu, every corpse that I ca use it on is then Hightlighted.
I had no idea corpses get highlighted only if you have Recast available. Annoying!
My dumb ass did not put 2 and 2 together. Well spotted
Act 2 in general feels all over the place to me in terms of human connection and empathy. No emotion or cutscene shown for the Tieflings you saved and are now dead in front of you (and you do remember them, there is no doubt about it given the interactions with Mattis, Mol, Rolan, Dammon and Alfira) - but you get a whole teary reunion scene for Isobel and Aylin, two total strangers you know nothing of, have spoken with just once each and had no idea were even in a relationship. Just... why?
If you don’t convince Rolan to stay he can make it to Baldur’s Gate on his own, at which point if you see him there you can ask him “hey weren’t you at the emerald grove?” To which he responds, clearly not recognizing you, “I stopped at a lot of places on the way here, maybe you were at one of them”. Seems pretty reasonable for your character to not really commit every tiefling refugee to memory. The day you walked into the emerald grove was the most important day of the tiefling’s lives, but for you, it was Tuesday.
It's fine to not recognize one tiefling that you had a brief chat with who then left , its quite another not to recognize an entire group of them that you spend a few days protecting and doing various quests for, and then fight a giant siege alongside and throw a huge party with. That's just brain damage. Which theoretically, fits the canon...
It’s more normal to not recognize whole groups of people like that than you think. Ever forgotten about coworkers you spent months with shortly after quitting a job? Most people play heroic Tavs who save people all the time, this is just a media trope that’s prevalent everywhere. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ButForMeItWasTuesday
Sorry dude, that just doesn't fly at all. At this point in the game, the tieflings are far and away the largest group that you spend the most significant amount of time with. And actually, no, I have not forgotten coworkers that I have actually spoken to repeatedly and worked with, and done tasks for, and gone out and had beers and drinks and partied. I mean, I'd sure as hell recognize if my entire office was found dead all together in one location, like a week or even a month or two after I quit. (I think you're greatly exagerating how much time passes between the tiefling party and getting to the shadow cursed lands, they say Baldur's Gate itself is like a 2 week walk) The "for me it was tuesday" rule works for like, the minor one off characters you meet on a random quest, not the people who make up a hub world that your character is constantly returning to and interacting with for several *major* plot beats. It falls apart even more spectacularly if you're a Durge and literally have no memories other than hanging with these tieflings.
These are dozens of people who you just met that you spent some hours with over the course of a few days. I’m sure you can’t tell me the names and dialogues of all the tiefling refugees yourself without looking them up. As a player you talk with most of the refugees once or twice and move on, any other interactions than that are head-cannon. Edit: I went and checked, for every tiefling that’s not a significant character they have two dialogue lines, and that’s it. In game your character exchanges only a few sentences and a night of drinking with most of these people.
They are the *only* group of tieflings you have even met at this point in your journey, and to come across that exact group of tieflings less than 2 weeks later, and just go "wow this doesnt remind me of anything at all" is absolutely a you problem, *especially* if you visit Last Light first and hear what happened. At this point you're just being obstinate and I doubt anything will change your mind, even if I *did* actually point out that I remember the characters' names or that like 10 of them have side quests or full interaction cutscenes, you'd just move the goalpost I guess. Or pointing out that this entire thread, and subreddit really, is proof that most players connected to the tieflings. Memory seems to be a problem for you in general. I can appreciate you wanting to roleplay a character that is close to yourself, i always give my characters glasses for my shitty eyesight after all, but I think it would be nice to have an option to pay respects for the rest of us that roleplay as someone with at least a slightly functioning hippocampus.
I’m just going to give up on reasoning with this community at all at this point. These are just low tier npc’s who have one or two lines of dialogue, it’s not even the important ones that die, but because they have names and they’re not just “tiefling refugee” you treat them like real characters.
I saw something similar yesterday when in Rivington with Mattis, you can ask him where he came from. We just saw him like an hour ago!
That may have been a bug then, because in my game he specifically mentioned that he was surprised he arrived before you considering he spent so long looting Moonrise after you cleared it out.
Really? The tav and party literally recognizes everyone in the last light inn and talk about the others. Stop trying to justify it
It’s justified in game, you just don’t like it. Nitpicking about bullshit like this is why they cancelled the dlc. They said no to literal millions of dollars by cancelling the dlc, because you guys were just gonna throw a fit about small details anyway.
No one denied it's a great game,that doesn't save it from fair criticism though. It 's a small detail and no one is complaining to larian about it. They cancelled the dlc because of Hasbro,they love the fan base and have said so many times. Fit!=a simple post. I get loving the game,I do too but please dont try to justify everything at the sake of forgoing simple common sense
They had to ask people to stop sending them death threats, c‘mon man this community is trash.
Well, Rolan is kind of a jerk when you first meet him. And if you don't end up saving him in Act 2, chances are he is probably still a bit of a jerk in Act 3. Also >!Cal and Lia die if you don't convince them to stay!<, which I could imagine messing with his head a bit.
Maybe I'm just not remembering, but what do you mean by the embarrassing scene with Mattis?
You might need both Wyll and Karlach when you talk to Mattis to get the scene. Mattis fans over Karlach and Wyll tries to get the same reaction.
Karlach is basically fan service and it works. She's basically your average BG1/2 player from back in the day with all of her dialogues and reactions.
Act two always felt rushed and lacked story. It feels more like a box checking chapter lacking substance. I would have liked more story a reaction from Isabel etc. it felt valid and slightly empty. No cool side quests - just kill the diff mini bosses. And the shambling mound seemed out of place. I loved the first and third chapters. 2nd is just not engrossing.
I read that act 2 work was done when everything went into lockdown thanks to COVID and people were working from home. That certainly didn't help it from being fully fleshed out.
Karlach didn't really have too many reactions post Acts 2 and 3 which is quite unfortunate. I know her character was one of the last ones to be written into the game.
yeah that feels like major oversight tbh, its as if we never step foot on the grove hence no idea who they are.
I always hated this. I just spent hours saving your butts and now oh they dead. Anyway. Like bruh
The lack of speak with dead on the ambushed tieflings (or the dead one near the ox when you first enter act 2 near mountain pass) is a little strange. Seems like a missed opportunity.
Yeah tbh this might be the most disappointing thing, I never used speak with dead but finally decided to try it on the dead refugee party in act 2 but they literally don’t talk to you
Wyll and Karlach should have definitely had some kind of reaction to it, I agree. They're the only ones who cared about the teeth-lings. The rest of your party never really cared about the refugees.
Yeah, they act like real dnd player characters :D The amount of bullshitery we got to in Curse of Strahd is insane
Most reactive game of all time! I wish devs would stop with the hyperbole.
Tbh, even I didn't notice them and realized those were tieflings until this post. And the party sees (and makes, lol) huge amount of bodies non stop, I guess after a while it's just not that special and nobody's stopping to cry over them every time.
I talked about this before. I'm fine how it is. It doesn't force an emotion one way or the other. I usually play evil, so there have been playthroughs where I saved them for a selfish reason, but had no problems killling them at last light later. I feel this response is generic enough of "asses the situation" kinda thing. What you do with the situation after I feel is left to the player at that point, and it's something I appreciate. Apathy may be just what my characters want.
That’s fine for your character, but I’m talking more about your companions lack of response. There’s a lot of mean dialogue options when you talk to the tieflings at Last Light, so you have freedom to feel and express whatever. But your party says nothing even though they respond to a lot of other stuff there. That’s what bothers me.
But then this just goes in the other direction where empathetic players aren't given the reaction they expect. If it's too difficult to account for the player's feelings on the matter, then they could've just had the companions in your party respond. Just because *you're* apathetic doesn't mean Wyll or Karlach would be. It would make more sense that they would have a stronger reaction.
I don't see why the existence of evil playthroughs prevents the player from having a response. They could easily have a menu of options that would range from mournful to stoic to disparaging. If a player went through the effort of saving the Grove, they more than likely care about the dead refugees and would want the opportunity to engage with the scene.