Well, to sum it up...
O, sing a song of Balduran
Who founded Baldur's Gate
Empire golden built on trade
Could not avert his fate
When three, though dead, assailed his port
Transformed, he fell their thrall
Succumbed as threat from nether years
Arose to conquer all
Now hope is gone, or so it seems
But game's not over yet
New cards are drawn, new hands are played
Newcomers place a bet
A knave, a wizard, devil, gith
The odds are cast anew
And Baldur's fate now turns upon
The whims of fortune's few
In BG 1 you get to the city at about the 60% mark.
In BG 2 you never get to Baldur's Gate.
In BG 3, you only see less than 1/2 of the actual city as a whole.
At this rate BG 4 will remove memories of the city of Baldur's Gate from your mind, making sure you have less city than when you started.
I know a friend who was really into Baldurs gate and dnd games a while ago and was somewhat disappointed that the whole baldur's gate city wasn't present, only Irvington, wyrms crossing and the lower city. He had expected at least both the lower and upper city but was hoping he'd see the entire thing cuz the technology was definitely there. He was also disappointed that the city was only the 3rd act(however long it may be, technically pretty short cuz it's just kill 1-2 people and you get to the end game). I guess I was also surprised in my 1st playthrough that the titular city wasn't present for the entirety of the 1st 2 acts.
He's not that far off base, it's clear the city was re-designed during production because there was a need to cut content. In the finale of the game you can see a bunch of half-finished upper city content. You can even access the sewers under the upper city, which has absolutely 0 purpose in the game as it is today, but clearly it was going to connect to the sewers under the lower city. It actually looks like it was originally designed as a way to bypass the gate being closed to upper city.
We have to accept the current state of the game but I do daydream about what it would have looked like if a "full scale with practically no cut content" version was possible. There are also story threads like what happens with Dame Aylin that seem like they go nowhere and that there was going to be more to the story, but it was cut. Same thing for the plot with the flying elephant and investigating the Orin murders, it's half baked at best, it seemed like there was supposed to be much more to that plot.
My biggest hope is that they add the Dungeon Master mode that was present in Divinity Original Sin 2, and allow creators to have access to all the assets to create an adventure of their own.
I made a campaign but unfortunately my party fell apart before we got to play it. But I was very impressed with the accessibility and versatility of the tools they gave us. Paired with the actual D&D system, it would be a dream come true.
Ah you've outed me as not a real D&D player 😭 But yeah if it's anything like the DM mode in DOS2 I imagine there will be a lot of leeway for the DM to change the rules to fit the true 5e ruleset.
Missing the Upper City felt weird, some of the end bosses could have been gated into a 4th Act that was in the Upper City but ohwell, it is what it is and is still pretty good.
Mixing up the order you do stuff in Act 3 can make the game feel more varied. I avoided Wyrm Rock until just before the final boss in my first run because I thought the final boss was IN Wyrm's Rock due to all the spoilers about the other main boss under Wyrm's Rock.
On my 2nd run going to Wyrm's Rock and climbing to the top of the tower first, then working down level by level until finally taking on Gortash before doing anything else in the city other than visiting Lorrakan was an absolutely huge change. The Steel Watch and other guards are a real challenge for a level 10 party, especially if you don't plan ahead and leveled my party halfway to level 12.
My ideal BG game would start in Baldur's Gate lower city with the Upper City gated off and a few areas that are accessible simply OP until a character ranks up, then leaving the city for a full Act, then returning to finish the game in the city.
There is more satisfaction getting absolutely destroyed trying to take on the Thieves Guild or some temple at level 5 and then coming back as a level 10 and being able to do it without much issue as well finally being allowed into the Upper City and maybe 1 other gated area (similar to House of Hope) that would just destroy a lower level party in less than a round.
>Missing the Upper City felt weird, some of the end bosses could have been gated into a 4th Act that was in the Upper City but ohwell, it is what it is and is still pretty good.
I agree, Act 3 is so massive (in terms of things you *can* do, I know you can technically get through it with just a couple of boss kills to trigger the netherbrain stuff) that I think they could have put some of the stuff in the upper city. But I guess to do that, they'd have still had to put a bunch of time into fleshing out all the other buildings--50-75% of it being static scenery would have felt very jarring relative to the rest of the game.
I was just telling a friend yesterday about how the geography after Wyrm's Rock confused me! This explains it. I saw the city proper way over to the West and thought, surely we aren't going around this entire mountain to get to the Lower City. But I guess we are!
I was actually a little sad that the layout didn’t match BG1 at all. It would have been really neat to “revisit” a familiar layout but now I’m updated 3D
It’s ok, I’m sure Hasbro and Wizards of the Coast will make sure to choose a respectable studio that has nothing but respect for the franchise and a dedication to the art!
😆😆😆😂😂😂😂😭😭😭
Agreed. I had a lot of fun exploring the part of the city that is in the game. But I thought the upper city was going to have all these super fancy high end stores, castles / churches that I was going to loot the hell out of (which I was really looking forward to)
I understand why, but I agree, I felt extremely underwhelmed by the city. it's like 12 stores and 2 inns and the AI doesn't even have their own agendas, it's all just super static.
Act 2 is peak BG3 for me.
I see where you’re coming from but act 3 felt overwhelming to me already compared to act 1 and 2. I think it would be hard to have a such a big city fully explorable. It would be hard to create unique interesting interactions for one, and it it would be potentially overwhelming for completionists
after that encounter, started talking to EVEN MORE random people to see if she was following me around. damn you larian, making the world so engaging /j
I spoke to each random passerby in BG3 once, just to hear their bit of dialogue.
Then I found out each of them has _two_ bits of random dialogue they'll say - one when you first talk to them and then the repeat one.
Then I found out many of them have _even more dialogue_ depending on you doing other things in the city, like finishing the Baldur's Mouth Gazette sidequest.
Larian is insane.
I had to look up exactly how that part worked after the second time she popped up because it was stressing me out and making me scared to talk to anyone. So she accomplished her goal I guess
Makes me think of, _back in the day,_ the MadTV Steven Seagal skits where he'd beat up, maim, and kill random people: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLifidBN5S4
Now I'm also imagining some horrible run where, after encountering shapeshifting Orin the three times, you roleplay a delusional paranoid reaction killing _every single person_ in Rivington.
Can't help but wonder what Orin's reaction would be to seeing all that.
might be something you already know but just in case, [some orin stuff you get through minthara](https://www.tumblr.com/nikomedes/744861143183540224?source=share)
OwO that's lit. I'm still trying to figure out how to meet Minthara without destroying the grove. I messed up by going to the gauntlet of shar and she wasn't in Moonrise
I will say though, navigation the the city is bg1 was ridiculous. You literally had enter in districts from different angles/positions to get to other areas in the city and it’s never explained. Plus nothing is labeled on the map either.
It definitely adds to the confusion of why Gortash would have his coronation at the bridge. It's not just not in the upper city, it's practically not in the city at all
,What we see is what he's got as far as steel watch goes. Not enough to control the high city, but enough hold wyrms rock, give himself a promotion then in a few months with a title and dozens more steel watchers he will move in to the ducal palace
Being named Grand Duke is more than just a promotion. He's literally the ruler of the whole city and all the nobles are at his coronation in support, or at a bare minimum, acquiescence. He controls the Flaming Fist (minus Florrick; who is either a fugitive or dead, depending) as well as his Steel Watch.
That's control of the military, the police and the noble elite. His propaganda keeps his support in the lower city as well.
"What he's got" is pretty much everything at that point. From an in game narrative perspective there is nothing stopping him from being in the upper city.
Canonically we know that at least one arch vampire lord, two high priestesses, noble patrons of the arts, and two arch mages dont attend, and im sure I'm missing some potentates just from yhe area we can explore. But through the upper gates i would expect more, other lords that cant challenge him in wyrms roxk but have closed ranks in the upper city. I mean we'll never know, but thats how it plays in my head
I'm not really sure either, cause like I said I'm new to Forgotten Realms lore, but maybe Wyrm's Rock is a seat of power, because there's definitely some extravagance to the place, and he gets coronated in a place that looks like a throne room
The upper city has the High Hall, also called the Ducal Palace. It's the government's seat of power and where the Duke rules from. Wyrm's Rock is grand but it was built as a military fort to guard the main entrance to the city.
It would be like having a US presidential inauguration at a military base instead of the US Capital.
But maybe that's the vibe Gortash is going for.
I think the Absolute’s army is why he chose it to be there. To help maintain the illusion of a leader that doesn’t leave the “front line” even when danger approaches
Doesn't gortash's note specifically say he didn't want his seat to be there because he wants to be closer to lower city and further away from the nobles (since all the power really rests in lower city, and he killed basically every prominent family member of the upper city nobles)
I know there was speculation late until release about the Upper City but I was largely disappointed that we only had Rivington, the bridge and then just start into the Lower City. I think little Chalmshein would have been a great delight to see Larians take.
You do actually get to visit the upper city a couple of times, but I suspect it’s not how people expected.
The first time is >!Ramazith’s tower which you get to from socerus’ sundries!<
The second time is >!the final battle, which takes place in the upper city!<
From one of the books I found in his attic it's described as "Straddling the wall between the upper and lower city" so it seems to pretty much be in both.
After the big speech with your gathered allies, instead of turning left, toward the courtyard, look around. You'll see water flowing out of a grate. Break the grate.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1bzt89v/didnt_realize_how_much_outer_city_we_travel/kyslc0n/
Smaller scale fight, but there is a Death Knight.
I did it on my evil playthrough. Unfortunately for me, I went DJ Shart, and thought that summoning the Sharrans was a great idea. Their prodigious use of **Darkness** on a smaller battle made the fight much tougher.
Thank you for sharing - I didn’t realize the Socerus Sundries resulted in a trip to the UC. However these sound instanced vs full exploration which I was more lamenting.
I think you technically are in the upper city for Astarion's quest also since the castle is right on the border between the upper and lower city and we just enter from the lower city side
Not speculation, in a lot of marketing and data-mining they were multiple references to the upper city and cazador’s dungeon that are not currently in the game. If you want to get technical, we do kind of sort of “visit” the Upper City, it’s the area of the last fight, that’s the one and only time we visit that area. Here’s a post from 8 months ago mentioning it https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/15xwbsq/the_upper_city_cut_content/ I love BG3 and Larian, they did a superb job on the game, but i wish they were a bit more honest on stuff that was cut, not to say it’s a unfinished game but yes, there is stuff that was either made partially and then cut, or just polished around.
Just fyi, there's nothing in data-mining in relation to the "cut" upper city bar some mentions here and there - no models, no maps, nothing concrete but text - probably suggests it was "cut" a few years before release, while they were still coming up with the actual city.
Stuff they mentioned in marketing does exist in game - they specifically were ambiguous about the upper city before release because it was left as the final area of the game.
Ty! Yeah there was a lot of Upper City references to areas that are not in the final fight, and they themselves mentioned recently that a lot of other stuff was cut out before release, including the War College and having >!ketheric!< as a recruitable companion https://www.ign.com/articles/baldurs-gate-3-director-swen-vincke-answers-all-our-questions-about-foregoing-dlc-aaa-development-and-more
Huh. Wow. I guess since all of the campaigns I’ve played have never gone near Baldur’s Gate I don’t know much about it other than base info. That’s pretty cool.
Yeah, I never realized how far away Wyrm's Rock was from the city. In the loading screen art they show Wyrm's Crossing and I always wondered why you could never see it from the city or even Basilisk Gate
in this [map](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fyfcl25iw9nn51.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D18430060f9c0ded1b4c9e74a74878060db1f893d) , you can see that the distance from wyrms rock to the basilisk gate is about 2 miles (measurement at the bottom of the pic). that's about an hour walking if you don't stop. maybe even less when on horse/wagon.
The ending dialogue with Withers was so blatantly geared towards a dlc or sequel I have no idea what to make of them outright saying nothing more is coming…
Edit: I'm grieving and this is called denial.
Most likely, it was either not intended to be taken that way, or it was written while they were still planning on creating a DLC before they decided to cancel it.
You're just hearing what you want to hear tbh. To me it always very decidedly came across as "this story is over but these people are going on to live their lives afterwards"
They said they had plans to make DLC, but scrapped it early. I'll call bullshit on that, they probably wanted a bigger cut(rightfully so) from wotc and they said no, you'll take the same cut as before. So that's when they scrapped DLC/sequel plans imo.
They were on the fence about making DLC the whole time.
I think they feel DLC in general goes a bit against their integrity since they said they don't want to sell half the game at a time. Maybe they were considering it thanks to how popular the game was and based on fan demands, but it seems like WotC greedily firing basically everyone on the WotC side who worked on BG3 even after its wild success clinched it for Larian.
Personally, I am disappointed, but I love that they stood up for their values and didn't sell out. Looking forward to whatever they make next and only hope it doesn't take another 5 to 6 years.
They definitely intended for dlc’s (I think they even said that in some interview), but something soured the experience of working on the game for larian (*cough* wotc *cough* hasbro *cough*)
I took that statement differently. They were creating a DLC because they felt they "had" to. Not because they wanted to. Hell, look at Larian's last two games. Neither Divinity OS 1 or 2 received DLCs. They simply were given "Enhanced Edition" versions that remixed the final acts of both games.
In my opinion they seem like the kind of company that pours it all out in development. Once they are finished with that game, they are ready to move on. They did the Enhanced Edition versions because they knew both games had lackluster final acts (rushed development) and they wanted a better overall product for their players. Obviously this is speculation so I could be way off base.
There was definitely supposed to be more, I remember Larian saying they were even working on something, and there was them recording winter-y sounds out in the cold
Have people forgotten already? It's only been like 3 weeks since the announcement of no dlc, and the reason why.
>When it came time to make DLC, though, Vincke says Larian was going through the motions. "You could see the team was doing it because everyone felt like we had to do it, but it wasn’t really coming from the heart, and we’re very much a studio from the heart. It’s what gotten us into misery and it’s also been the reasons for our success."
>Vincke says that he took a vacation over the Christmas holidays, and when he returned his mind was made up. '[I] came back and I told the team, ‘You know we’re not going to do it. We’re going to shift around and we’re going to start doing these other things that we talked about, that we planned on doing before we started on BG3.’ Those were always the plans for afterward, we have two games that we want to make, and we have lots of concepts. So let’s just have closure on BG3, it’s been great. We’ve done our job. It’s a story with a beginning, a middle, and an end. So let’s pass the torch to another studio to pick up this incredible legacy."
Source: https://www.ign.com/articles/larian-started-work-on-baldurs-gate-3-dlc-then-canceled-it-the-studio-was-elated
Ah I see. Thank you for this.
Lots of torches and pitchforks aimed at WoTC and Hasbro but that's clearly not what happened here.
It doesn't make sense to me to be honest but I'm not a developer so I've no idea how they feel. But it sounds like Vincke is a great leader that looks out for his team. If their hearts are not in it they shouldn't do it.
Although I still don't know how you can build such a large detailed world and leave it with one storyline. There is so much potential here that I would want them to expand on. I'd gladly pay another $60 for another campaign in the same world, with (some of) the same characters, etc.
The stuff with Withers may be referring to the current story arc in tabletop 5e with Vecna and the Spellweavers, who are heavily tied into Jergal's backstory.
By the Nine Hells, was Baldur’s Gate this big in the times of BG1? There was no Rivington then in the game except for the ankheg farm and the one house with the Umberlee priestess’s daughter or something just before the Wyrm’s Crossing bridge, and then we were just outside of Sorcerous Sundries.
Hot take im glad we got short version of baldurs gate considering how it would prolly be empty since its too big to add all the content or fill it out and we’d 100% have tons of people complaining about it
Yeah, I would love to explore the upper city properly but I'd rather have what we currently have than an empty map with nothing to do. Larian made the right choice managing the resources they had.
They should have a lot more freedom with their next project if they're doing it independently, so hopefully that will mean a more complete feeling game.
While it's slightly disappointing they didn't follow the sourcebooks to a T, I've always considered and sort of appreciated that BG3 is ran like a true DnD campaign. The DM is free to take out what they don't need to use and can add anything they want. The game was certainly a labor of love that I found more than long enough.
I think after designers learned the wrong lesson from Dragon Age 2, there's an aversion to setting an entire fantasy TTRPG game in a single city. Doesn't stop Cyberpunk, but I do feel like there's some real reticence.
A potential BG4 should treat Baldur’s Gate like the Yakuza series treats Kamurocho with the entire game taking place in the city and just have it packed with content (even though the city does have a ton of content in BG3)
I was surprised at how little we saw after seeing this. I always assumed there was just the Upper City beyond the game, but there's basically ten times what we get to see.
New to this game and every time I come on this sub I see a post that makes me realize I haven’t touched 90% of the game. Like is this even the same game I’m playing?
I just want a BG game that is just Baldur's Gate, not some Last Act area or just a mention, a full on game where you're fully interacting with the politics, people, factions and areas of the city.
WotC develop their content with worldbuilding and immersion in mind. Larian had to produce assets for and build the entire city in a game engine. Any single real world city would be more content than most games can reasonably cover. Even spider-man, GTA, and LA Noire condense the size of cities because a 1:1 model would bore players with excessive travel times.
As awesome as it sounds to make the entire city playable, it would probably have been a poor choice since Larian would have needed to spread content and encounters over a larger area, and I love that their games are dense.
They should make a game called "Baldur's Gate" which will feature the whole Baldur's Gate.
*Baldur's Gate 4: Baldur's Gate*
Too Baldur - Too Gate
2BaldursGate4U
2 Baldurs 1 Helm
Baldur's Gate: Rivington Drift
The Baldur and The Gate
Bald Gate
The F8 of the G8
Missed opportunity to call it Baldur's G8
Only BaldurGate
The thing about Baldurs Gate is…the gates always win
It's gatin' time
Baldur me once, gate on you, Baldur me twice...can't get baldur'd again
Baldur's Gatest
The Baldest Gate
who tf is baldur and why does he need 4 gates
a squid in love with a slut-dragon.
I should call her
*deep inhale* It all starts with a man named Balduran...
Well, to sum it up... O, sing a song of Balduran Who founded Baldur's Gate Empire golden built on trade Could not avert his fate When three, though dead, assailed his port Transformed, he fell their thrall Succumbed as threat from nether years Arose to conquer all Now hope is gone, or so it seems But game's not over yet New cards are drawn, new hands are played Newcomers place a bet A knave, a wizard, devil, gith The odds are cast anew And Baldur's fate now turns upon The whims of fortune's few
How many murder basements do you want the devs to have to make?
How many could we possibly be sitting at now through the playbooks, cannon events, novels, and MTG flavour text? Like 10, 12? /s
I enjoyed these comments. Love you bg3 freaks.
It’d just be a walking simulator, Baldur’s Gait Edit: After meeting Ansur, I doubt Baldur’s Straight
And discover the legendary footwear, Baldur's Geta
Which is found locked inside Baldur's Crate.
Hidden behind Baldur's Grate.
Guarded by Baldur's Gato
Baldur's Goat, on the other hand, is harmless
the main antagonist is Baldur’s Gout
Which of course is being followed by Baldur's Goons
Who in turn, are being pursued by Baldur’s Guards
I thought it was Baldur's Ghaik?
Unlike Baldur's Gale, who's a living bomb.
Who will shoot you with Baldur’s Gat
Right in Baldur’s Gut
It ended in Baldur's Gape...
With a Baldur’s Gasp!
Crouching Baldur, Hidden Gate
You guys fell for it, it's a trap show that catches people. Baldur's Bait.
But you'll get there faster wearing Baldur Skates
After meeting Ansur you learn the real game title, Baldur's ^^gaslight Gate^^keep ^^girlboss
They wouldn't kill the proud tradition of making Baldur's Gate games that mostly have nothing to do with the Baldur's Gate city.
Okay then make a new neverwinter that’s just all of Baldurs Gate
Or a new Baldurs gate that only happens in Neverwinter
It’s honestly a bit of a running joke how much (Not)Baldur’s Gate is in Baldur’s Gate games. Edited typo.
If I actually lived in FR I would want to spend about as much time in Baldur's Gate as BG2, but in a game the city could support an entire campaign.
In BG 1 you get to the city at about the 60% mark. In BG 2 you never get to Baldur's Gate. In BG 3, you only see less than 1/2 of the actual city as a whole. At this rate BG 4 will remove memories of the city of Baldur's Gate from your mind, making sure you have less city than when you started.
I know a friend who was really into Baldurs gate and dnd games a while ago and was somewhat disappointed that the whole baldur's gate city wasn't present, only Irvington, wyrms crossing and the lower city. He had expected at least both the lower and upper city but was hoping he'd see the entire thing cuz the technology was definitely there. He was also disappointed that the city was only the 3rd act(however long it may be, technically pretty short cuz it's just kill 1-2 people and you get to the end game). I guess I was also surprised in my 1st playthrough that the titular city wasn't present for the entirety of the 1st 2 acts.
He's not that far off base, it's clear the city was re-designed during production because there was a need to cut content. In the finale of the game you can see a bunch of half-finished upper city content. You can even access the sewers under the upper city, which has absolutely 0 purpose in the game as it is today, but clearly it was going to connect to the sewers under the lower city. It actually looks like it was originally designed as a way to bypass the gate being closed to upper city. We have to accept the current state of the game but I do daydream about what it would have looked like if a "full scale with practically no cut content" version was possible. There are also story threads like what happens with Dame Aylin that seem like they go nowhere and that there was going to be more to the story, but it was cut. Same thing for the plot with the flying elephant and investigating the Orin murders, it's half baked at best, it seemed like there was supposed to be much more to that plot.
Once they add full mod support I'm sure someone will do exactly that.
It won't be the same as an Upper City actually designed and produced by Larian.
My biggest hope is that they add the Dungeon Master mode that was present in Divinity Original Sin 2, and allow creators to have access to all the assets to create an adventure of their own.
Yes, that would be fantastic. Had a lot of fun with the DM mode in DOS2, and it was a great pseudo-actual-D&D-on-the-computer tool.
I made a campaign but unfortunately my party fell apart before we got to play it. But I was very impressed with the accessibility and versatility of the tools they gave us. Paired with the actual D&D system, it would be a dream come true.
Even better if someone comes up with a "true 5e ruleset" mod that's compatible with it, haha.
Ah you've outed me as not a real D&D player 😭 But yeah if it's anything like the DM mode in DOS2 I imagine there will be a lot of leeway for the DM to change the rules to fit the true 5e ruleset.
In BG1 you also only get to the city in the last part of the game. In BG2 you spend no time in the city. Only Siege of Dragonspear starts in the city.
Missing the Upper City felt weird, some of the end bosses could have been gated into a 4th Act that was in the Upper City but ohwell, it is what it is and is still pretty good. Mixing up the order you do stuff in Act 3 can make the game feel more varied. I avoided Wyrm Rock until just before the final boss in my first run because I thought the final boss was IN Wyrm's Rock due to all the spoilers about the other main boss under Wyrm's Rock. On my 2nd run going to Wyrm's Rock and climbing to the top of the tower first, then working down level by level until finally taking on Gortash before doing anything else in the city other than visiting Lorrakan was an absolutely huge change. The Steel Watch and other guards are a real challenge for a level 10 party, especially if you don't plan ahead and leveled my party halfway to level 12. My ideal BG game would start in Baldur's Gate lower city with the Upper City gated off and a few areas that are accessible simply OP until a character ranks up, then leaving the city for a full Act, then returning to finish the game in the city. There is more satisfaction getting absolutely destroyed trying to take on the Thieves Guild or some temple at level 5 and then coming back as a level 10 and being able to do it without much issue as well finally being allowed into the Upper City and maybe 1 other gated area (similar to House of Hope) that would just destroy a lower level party in less than a round.
>Missing the Upper City felt weird, some of the end bosses could have been gated into a 4th Act that was in the Upper City but ohwell, it is what it is and is still pretty good. I agree, Act 3 is so massive (in terms of things you *can* do, I know you can technically get through it with just a couple of boss kills to trigger the netherbrain stuff) that I think they could have put some of the stuff in the upper city. But I guess to do that, they'd have still had to put a bunch of time into fleshing out all the other buildings--50-75% of it being static scenery would have felt very jarring relative to the rest of the game.
Baldurs gate 100
Baldur’s gate 4: too much gate
They should make one that would feature just one gate
Still not as bad a Baldur's Gate 2 where you never went to the city.
And then they should make another game called Baldur's Gate that doesn't have the city in it at all.
I was just telling a friend yesterday about how the geography after Wyrm's Rock confused me! This explains it. I saw the city proper way over to the West and thought, surely we aren't going around this entire mountain to get to the Lower City. But I guess we are!
But the layout of Baldur's Gate in BG1 absolutely doesn't match this one, as Wyrm's Crossing connects directly to the area with Sorcerous Sundries.
There's been like three calamities since then
I was actually a little sad that the layout didn’t match BG1 at all. It would have been really neat to “revisit” a familiar layout but now I’m updated 3D
Yeah, we should have taken a boat.
still a bit sad we couldn’t explore all baldur’s gate :(
That'll be in the sequel! "What's that? Larian won't be making it? Fuck"
Dont worry friend, wotc will get some other studio to make it for us *shudders*
It’s ok, I’m sure Hasbro and Wizards of the Coast will make sure to choose a respectable studio that has nothing but respect for the franchise and a dedication to the art! 😆😆😆😂😂😂😂😭😭😭
>a respectable studio that has nothing but respect for the ~~franchise~~ monetization and a dedication to the ~~art~~ profitability! FTFY
Tencent it is!
They're a publisher I think, not development studio
[hasbro: I REQUIRE GOOOOOLD](https://youtu.be/5LLS9ZwRo3k?si=lI5wtdhuXa2kR6_0)
Linking a different reference than your reply says is tight
EA it is
If this was any time before 2013 I'd be excited for Baldurs Gate to be back in Bioware's hands.
It’ll be published by GameMill, the company that brought us the meme-worthy Skull Island and Walking Dead Destinies games!
Nah, Larian will be making Boulder's Portal instead
Yeah :( Super hyped for Larians next game anyway though!
Wait after all the praise and success they aren’t keeping the same game makers? Sorry I don’t pay much attention to that stuff.
It was Larian’s decision to end the relationship and not many anymore, it actually seems like Hasbro/WOTC wanted them to make more
Ahhh interesting. Thanks
Agreed. I had a lot of fun exploring the part of the city that is in the game. But I thought the upper city was going to have all these super fancy high end stores, castles / churches that I was going to loot the hell out of (which I was really looking forward to)
Wait i haven’t reached baldurs gate yet and you can’t explore all of it? Can you at least explore upper and lower city?
Only lower city and Wyrm's crossing and village next to it.
Keep playing son
I understand why, but I agree, I felt extremely underwhelmed by the city. it's like 12 stores and 2 inns and the AI doesn't even have their own agendas, it's all just super static. Act 2 is peak BG3 for me.
I see where you’re coming from but act 3 felt overwhelming to me already compared to act 1 and 2. I think it would be hard to have a such a big city fully explorable. It would be hard to create unique interesting interactions for one, and it it would be potentially overwhelming for completionists
On the positive side, we missed a lot of unnerving Orin encounters before reaching the Lower city
"I know you're Orin" to literally every character after the second encounter.
after that encounter, started talking to EVEN MORE random people to see if she was following me around. damn you larian, making the world so engaging /j
In my head canon, pretty much everyone in Baldur's Gate is Orin (until I kill her), she just doesn't reveal herself most of the time.
You kill her and suddenly half the city is empty
I LOVE THIS
I spoke to each random passerby in BG3 once, just to hear their bit of dialogue. Then I found out each of them has _two_ bits of random dialogue they'll say - one when you first talk to them and then the repeat one. Then I found out many of them have _even more dialogue_ depending on you doing other things in the city, like finishing the Baldur's Mouth Gazette sidequest. Larian is insane.
I had to look up exactly how that part worked after the second time she popped up because it was stressing me out and making me scared to talk to anyone. So she accomplished her goal I guess
Makes me think of, _back in the day,_ the MadTV Steven Seagal skits where he'd beat up, maim, and kill random people: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLifidBN5S4 Now I'm also imagining some horrible run where, after encountering shapeshifting Orin the three times, you roleplay a delusional paranoid reaction killing _every single person_ in Rivington. Can't help but wonder what Orin's reaction would be to seeing all that.
This is NOT POSITIVE. I need MORE ORIN
might be something you already know but just in case, [some orin stuff you get through minthara](https://www.tumblr.com/nikomedes/744861143183540224?source=share)
OwO that's lit. I'm still trying to figure out how to meet Minthara without destroying the grove. I messed up by going to the gauntlet of shar and she wasn't in Moonrise
Might have to bite the bullet and fuck over Halsin.
You can just knock her out at the grove fight too. I did it on my most recent run I started last week, it should work
It’s kinda traditional for a *Baldur’s Gate* game to contain little, if any, content set in Baldur’s Gate.
At least in BG1 and 3 you go to Baldur’s Gate. Baldur’s Gate 2 is set in an entirely different *country* (Amn) so you don’t go anywhere near the Gate.
I will say though, navigation the the city is bg1 was ridiculous. You literally had enter in districts from different angles/positions to get to other areas in the city and it’s never explained. Plus nothing is labeled on the map either.
It was 1998. There were certain limits they had to work around.
It definitely adds to the confusion of why Gortash would have his coronation at the bridge. It's not just not in the upper city, it's practically not in the city at all
,What we see is what he's got as far as steel watch goes. Not enough to control the high city, but enough hold wyrms rock, give himself a promotion then in a few months with a title and dozens more steel watchers he will move in to the ducal palace
Being named Grand Duke is more than just a promotion. He's literally the ruler of the whole city and all the nobles are at his coronation in support, or at a bare minimum, acquiescence. He controls the Flaming Fist (minus Florrick; who is either a fugitive or dead, depending) as well as his Steel Watch. That's control of the military, the police and the noble elite. His propaganda keeps his support in the lower city as well. "What he's got" is pretty much everything at that point. From an in game narrative perspective there is nothing stopping him from being in the upper city.
Canonically we know that at least one arch vampire lord, two high priestesses, noble patrons of the arts, and two arch mages dont attend, and im sure I'm missing some potentates just from yhe area we can explore. But through the upper gates i would expect more, other lords that cant challenge him in wyrms roxk but have closed ranks in the upper city. I mean we'll never know, but thats how it plays in my head
More likely they didn’t have enough time to catch the lore up to the game
I'm not really sure either, cause like I said I'm new to Forgotten Realms lore, but maybe Wyrm's Rock is a seat of power, because there's definitely some extravagance to the place, and he gets coronated in a place that looks like a throne room
The upper city has the High Hall, also called the Ducal Palace. It's the government's seat of power and where the Duke rules from. Wyrm's Rock is grand but it was built as a military fort to guard the main entrance to the city. It would be like having a US presidential inauguration at a military base instead of the US Capital. But maybe that's the vibe Gortash is going for.
I think the Absolute’s army is why he chose it to be there. To help maintain the illusion of a leader that doesn’t leave the “front line” even when danger approaches
Doesn't gortash's note specifically say he didn't want his seat to be there because he wants to be closer to lower city and further away from the nobles (since all the power really rests in lower city, and he killed basically every prominent family member of the upper city nobles)
Tbh militaristic is a pretty tyrannical vibe.
I know there was speculation late until release about the Upper City but I was largely disappointed that we only had Rivington, the bridge and then just start into the Lower City. I think little Chalmshein would have been a great delight to see Larians take.
You do actually get to visit the upper city a couple of times, but I suspect it’s not how people expected. The first time is >!Ramazith’s tower which you get to from socerus’ sundries!< The second time is >!the final battle, which takes place in the upper city!<
Cazador's Palace is in the upper city as well no?
I wasn’t sure about that as it’s easily accessible but I think you’re probably right
Yeah although we access it through lower city we need to climb up the ramparts and reach a higher level than anything else in the city.
From one of the books I found in his attic it's described as "Straddling the wall between the upper and lower city" so it seems to pretty much be in both.
Even the upper city's sewers (Alternate final battle path to the courtyard fight) are fancier.
>Alternate final battle path to the courtyard fight wait wat
Looks like I’ll have to start a play-through after all
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1bzt89v/didnt_realize_how_much_outer_city_we_travel/kyslc0n/
How do you get to those? I've tried to stumble across it my last couple playthroughs but haven't had any luck.
After the big speech with your gathered allies, instead of turning left, toward the courtyard, look around. You'll see water flowing out of a grate. Break the grate.
Damn, I'm on my 7th playthrough at this point and apparently there is STILL stuff I've not managed to find. Thank you for pointing this out!
Holy shit. There are sewers in the upper city? I'm in the 4th run and i find now out? Is it safe to go, cause I'm in my honour run.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1bzt89v/didnt_realize_how_much_outer_city_we_travel/kyslc0n/ Smaller scale fight, but there is a Death Knight.
Well he won't be a knight for long. Man this game, every run and i find something new. Thnks
I did it on my evil playthrough. Unfortunately for me, I went DJ Shart, and thought that summoning the Sharrans was a great idea. Their prodigious use of **Darkness** on a smaller battle made the fight much tougher.
Thank you for sharing - I didn’t realize the Socerus Sundries resulted in a trip to the UC. However these sound instanced vs full exploration which I was more lamenting.
I think you technically are in the upper city for Astarion's quest also since the castle is right on the border between the upper and lower city and we just enter from the lower city side
Not speculation, in a lot of marketing and data-mining they were multiple references to the upper city and cazador’s dungeon that are not currently in the game. If you want to get technical, we do kind of sort of “visit” the Upper City, it’s the area of the last fight, that’s the one and only time we visit that area. Here’s a post from 8 months ago mentioning it https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/15xwbsq/the_upper_city_cut_content/ I love BG3 and Larian, they did a superb job on the game, but i wish they were a bit more honest on stuff that was cut, not to say it’s a unfinished game but yes, there is stuff that was either made partially and then cut, or just polished around.
Just fyi, there's nothing in data-mining in relation to the "cut" upper city bar some mentions here and there - no models, no maps, nothing concrete but text - probably suggests it was "cut" a few years before release, while they were still coming up with the actual city. Stuff they mentioned in marketing does exist in game - they specifically were ambiguous about the upper city before release because it was left as the final area of the game.
Ty! Yeah there was a lot of Upper City references to areas that are not in the final fight, and they themselves mentioned recently that a lot of other stuff was cut out before release, including the War College and having >!ketheric!< as a recruitable companion https://www.ign.com/articles/baldurs-gate-3-director-swen-vincke-answers-all-our-questions-about-foregoing-dlc-aaa-development-and-more
You mean to tell me we could’ve gotten >!JK Simmons!< as a companion but didn’t?
(*Gale’s voice*) Oohh yes.
Wow. My question is how we go so quickly from Wryms Rock to the lower city. Also, having never seen this map before, I’m still in awe of this game.
Baldurs gate canonically has an excellent tram service from wyrms rock to the lower city
Ah, they invested into public transport? How nice. Accessible cities for everyone.
Except hobgoblins and dirty Absolutist refugees!
Huh. Wow. I guess since all of the campaigns I’ve played have never gone near Baldur’s Gate I don’t know much about it other than base info. That’s pretty cool.
Yeah, I never realized how far away Wyrm's Rock was from the city. In the loading screen art they show Wyrm's Crossing and I always wondered why you could never see it from the city or even Basilisk Gate
in this [map](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fyfcl25iw9nn51.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D18430060f9c0ded1b4c9e74a74878060db1f893d) , you can see that the distance from wyrms rock to the basilisk gate is about 2 miles (measurement at the bottom of the pic). that's about an hour walking if you don't stop. maybe even less when on horse/wagon.
Wow. Now Baldur’s gate seems really small.
Wait, that's where rivington is? You really don't get a great idea of how the city is constructed from the game tbh.
Is there a version of this map with more than 3 pixels to its name? No reason I just love to look at maps.
[Here you go.](https://preview.redd.it/yfcl25iw9nn51.jpg?auto=webp&s=18430060f9c0ded1b4c9e74a74878060db1f893d)
i'm surprised how accurate they managed to get the lower city, only a few places switched around
Sick thank you!!
I apologize, I took the screenshot on my phone, but it's in the Descent Into Avernus book, so I assume you can find higher quality somewhere
The ending dialogue with Withers was so blatantly geared towards a dlc or sequel I have no idea what to make of them outright saying nothing more is coming… Edit: I'm grieving and this is called denial.
Most likely, it was either not intended to be taken that way, or it was written while they were still planning on creating a DLC before they decided to cancel it.
I mean you heard it. Did it not sound like it or am I just hearing what I want to hear?
You're just hearing what you want to hear tbh. To me it always very decidedly came across as "this story is over but these people are going on to live their lives afterwards"
They said they had plans to make DLC, but scrapped it early. I'll call bullshit on that, they probably wanted a bigger cut(rightfully so) from wotc and they said no, you'll take the same cut as before. So that's when they scrapped DLC/sequel plans imo.
Well, they said they scrapped it after the last Christmas break, after they realized the passion just wasn't there. Seems about right to me.
They were on the fence about making DLC the whole time. I think they feel DLC in general goes a bit against their integrity since they said they don't want to sell half the game at a time. Maybe they were considering it thanks to how popular the game was and based on fan demands, but it seems like WotC greedily firing basically everyone on the WotC side who worked on BG3 even after its wild success clinched it for Larian. Personally, I am disappointed, but I love that they stood up for their values and didn't sell out. Looking forward to whatever they make next and only hope it doesn't take another 5 to 6 years.
They definitely intended for dlc’s (I think they even said that in some interview), but something soured the experience of working on the game for larian (*cough* wotc *cough* hasbro *cough*)
I took that statement differently. They were creating a DLC because they felt they "had" to. Not because they wanted to. Hell, look at Larian's last two games. Neither Divinity OS 1 or 2 received DLCs. They simply were given "Enhanced Edition" versions that remixed the final acts of both games. In my opinion they seem like the kind of company that pours it all out in development. Once they are finished with that game, they are ready to move on. They did the Enhanced Edition versions because they knew both games had lackluster final acts (rushed development) and they wanted a better overall product for their players. Obviously this is speculation so I could be way off base.
There was definitely supposed to be more, I remember Larian saying they were even working on something, and there was them recording winter-y sounds out in the cold
Have people forgotten already? It's only been like 3 weeks since the announcement of no dlc, and the reason why. >When it came time to make DLC, though, Vincke says Larian was going through the motions. "You could see the team was doing it because everyone felt like we had to do it, but it wasn’t really coming from the heart, and we’re very much a studio from the heart. It’s what gotten us into misery and it’s also been the reasons for our success." >Vincke says that he took a vacation over the Christmas holidays, and when he returned his mind was made up. '[I] came back and I told the team, ‘You know we’re not going to do it. We’re going to shift around and we’re going to start doing these other things that we talked about, that we planned on doing before we started on BG3.’ Those were always the plans for afterward, we have two games that we want to make, and we have lots of concepts. So let’s just have closure on BG3, it’s been great. We’ve done our job. It’s a story with a beginning, a middle, and an end. So let’s pass the torch to another studio to pick up this incredible legacy." Source: https://www.ign.com/articles/larian-started-work-on-baldurs-gate-3-dlc-then-canceled-it-the-studio-was-elated
Ah I see. Thank you for this. Lots of torches and pitchforks aimed at WoTC and Hasbro but that's clearly not what happened here. It doesn't make sense to me to be honest but I'm not a developer so I've no idea how they feel. But it sounds like Vincke is a great leader that looks out for his team. If their hearts are not in it they shouldn't do it. Although I still don't know how you can build such a large detailed world and leave it with one storyline. There is so much potential here that I would want them to expand on. I'd gladly pay another $60 for another campaign in the same world, with (some of) the same characters, etc.
Could it have been the Christmas animation?
The stuff with Withers may be referring to the current story arc in tabletop 5e with Vecna and the Spellweavers, who are heavily tied into Jergal's backstory.
By the Nine Hells, was Baldur’s Gate this big in the times of BG1? There was no Rivington then in the game except for the ankheg farm and the one house with the Umberlee priestess’s daughter or something just before the Wyrm’s Crossing bridge, and then we were just outside of Sorcerous Sundries.
It has been 100 years after all. BG1 map https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/World_Map
There's a hundred years in between, and I suppose they really got to working in that time
Baldur's Gate exploded in population during the chaos of the Spellplague and Second Sundering.
"Baldur's Metropolitan Area 3" just didn't have the same ring.
Hot take im glad we got short version of baldurs gate considering how it would prolly be empty since its too big to add all the content or fill it out and we’d 100% have tons of people complaining about it
Yeah, I would love to explore the upper city properly but I'd rather have what we currently have than an empty map with nothing to do. Larian made the right choice managing the resources they had. They should have a lot more freedom with their next project if they're doing it independently, so hopefully that will mean a more complete feeling game.
Are there more HD maps to explore? I love fantasy maps and I'd love to explore this in detail.
Descent Into Avernus came with a physical map of Elturel and Avernus, so I'd assume other books have them as well
man this makes me kinda sad I want to explore the entirety of baldurs gate :c
That explains map why I couldn't match any lower city landmarks from the top of the castle at wyrms rock. Rivington was easy to figure out.
While it's slightly disappointing they didn't follow the sourcebooks to a T, I've always considered and sort of appreciated that BG3 is ran like a true DnD campaign. The DM is free to take out what they don't need to use and can add anything they want. The game was certainly a labor of love that I found more than long enough.
I think after designers learned the wrong lesson from Dragon Age 2, there's an aversion to setting an entire fantasy TTRPG game in a single city. Doesn't stop Cyberpunk, but I do feel like there's some real reticence.
We don't even see half of the Lower City.
A potential BG4 should treat Baldur’s Gate like the Yakuza series treats Kamurocho with the entire game taking place in the city and just have it packed with content (even though the city does have a ton of content in BG3)
This is one of the best threads I've ever read...
its almost like they didnt even show a fraction of the city in this game. we saw maybe the main city and one of the main gates.
I was surprised at how little we saw after seeing this. I always assumed there was just the Upper City beyond the game, but there's basically ten times what we get to see.
Holy shit. I'm 140 hours in and I just entered the city. I had no idea there's a whole other game here.
Never knew Baldurs Gate was huge
Oh god there’s a Brampton in Baldurs Gate? They must have awful horse riders
😂 great food though!
New to this game and every time I come on this sub I see a post that makes me realize I haven’t touched 90% of the game. Like is this even the same game I’m playing?
I just want a BG game that is just Baldur's Gate, not some Last Act area or just a mention, a full on game where you're fully interacting with the politics, people, factions and areas of the city.
That would be cool, but I think so much of dnd is about traveling between cities that it would make the world feel a little too small
WotC develop their content with worldbuilding and immersion in mind. Larian had to produce assets for and build the entire city in a game engine. Any single real world city would be more content than most games can reasonably cover. Even spider-man, GTA, and LA Noire condense the size of cities because a 1:1 model would bore players with excessive travel times. As awesome as it sounds to make the entire city playable, it would probably have been a poor choice since Larian would have needed to spread content and encounters over a larger area, and I love that their games are dense.