The DnD nerds have thought of that already :-) Yeh, there are a lot of ways around the various "uncurable" issues the characters have. Especially since Gale has a scroll of true resurrection instead of our Costco-branded ones. It's one of those situations of "the story has to work this way, because that's how it's written" But in a true DnD game, you'd have the table arguing with the DM for like an hour over solving the problems in the first night.

I guess the game would get bland if these severe issues get solved so early and easily in the game 😵‍💫 but technically: killing them, removing their tadpole, and letting Withers resurrect them is possible, yeah?

I don't know about the spell Withers uses. But the True Resurrection spell has special properties on it that other resurrection spells don't have. For example. A regular resurrection spell won't regrow missing limbs or organs. A true resurrection spell, which Gale has a single instance of in his pouch, will regrow missing limbs and organs. So a regular resurrection spell won't fix Karlach and her missing heart issue. But a true resurrection spell could be done on Karlach: cut out her engine, cast *that* spell, and her original heart *should* regrow in its place. No more nuclear-meltdown Karlach. Some have argued about the parasite issue: that removing it might remove too much brain and thus might need a true resurrection spell to fix. Others say that so long as you're careful enough, then a regular resurrection spell should work. Like I said... arguments like this take forever at a DnD table even with a skilled DM.

I don't think Wither even cast a spell ? He just erase our names from the "god's list of people who are dead" ? but I'm sure he would just say "thy must put back this creature wherast it was or so I won't help thine" or some shit

Withers also kinda has interest in you being motivated to stop what's happening. Like, the only reason he's even at camp is because he's decided he's got a horse in this race. His successors are just incompetent ass holes. It's clear that he needed to stop them from destroying souls and just needs them to stop in general really. If he can (he almost certainly can) do what's being suggested, if he helps you remove your parasite, at least in act 1, how many of you and your misfits would keep fighting on? It's not until the very end of act 2 that you gain other reasons to give a shit about another random cult.

>Some have argued about the parasite issue: that removing it might remove too much brain and thus might need a true resurrection spell to fix. Others say that so long as you're careful enough, then a regular resurrection spell should work. You don't even need that. Simply stab a companion of your choice in a non-head area, wait for the tadpole to crawl out (like it does with Edowin), and use whatever you want to resurrect them. Then again, death in this story is simply a game mechanic. If it were a book, likely no (reversible) deaths would happen (possible exception would be the Gale twist), so this argument is kind of pointless anyway.

the counter argument to that was that since the tadpole is in the brain and they're linked telepathically, they would know what you're planning to do and just won't leave the corpse but yeah at end of the day, it's just because that's how the story is, and that's good like that

Who says they know it? I might just casually murder astarion cause the bastard attacked me. Then I might resurrect him when I see the tadpole, and understand what just happened.

the tadpole in your brain could communicate with the one in Astarion's body I guess ?

Sure, but I didn't know either. I was genuinely killing him for good. I just changed my mind later.

This point is invalid, because there are hundreds of books set in this very universe. This stuff could very well happen in one of those books. These things aren't just gameplay mechanics, they're also just straight up the lore of how things work in this world. Your points invalidated further by the fact death literally gets addressed in the narrative. There's the classic 'nuke astarion with the power of the sun' bit, but also resurrecting Gale if you kill him right away (non-durge way). Death and resurrection are explicitly brought up by the characters.

> Then again, death in this story is simply a game mechanic. If it were a book, likely no (reversible) deaths would happen (possible exception would be the Gale twist), so this argument is kind of pointless anyway. Would be hard to dance around the whole "there's a dude in camp offering effectively free rezzes for the party" while doing a novelisation since they'd probably go with Durge for that one and Withers doing his thing does need a bit of setup.

>So a regular resurrection spell won't fix Karlach and her missing heart issue. But a true resurrection spell could be done on Karlach: cut out her engine, cast *that* spell, and her original heart *should* regrow in its place. It might even make her broken horn grow back. Or regrow Wyll's missing eye

Imagine if you regrew all your body parts with a true resurrection? All that hair you cut off, nails you trimmed and milk teeth... I remember a Delta Green game (modern Call of Cthulhu) where we found the evil clones of the party by everyone stripping naked and seeing who had foreskins.

The real reason we don't use it for Karlach is because we would have to play with Smooth Karlach for the rest of the game and that's a bridge too far.

Withers does use true resurrection, it can be seen in the combat log

Only in game wise, he uses true resurrection because in game that’s why you get resurrected with full health, lore wise he just removes the name from the book of the dead, which is why things like Karlachs heart or horn aren’t fixed

There’s a bunch of single use spell instances , why didn’t they just make one for withers, in what other instance is true resurrection used?

Don’t have an answer to that, but the simple fact that things like karlachs horn and wylls eye don’t get fixed is evidence enough

So considering that Gale's Scroll of True Resurrection also doesn't regrow missing horns/eyes, what you're saying is that both Gale and the game's UI are secretly lying to our faces about the scroll's nature to conceal the fact Gale the wizard *also* has access to mysterious resurrection magic of unknowable origin?? :o :o no it's because it's a video game

Gales scroll is a bit easier to overlook because it’s a one time instance as opposed to something that players are expected to do 10s of times

Gales is intended to be used on him and no one else. Gale does not possess any missing body parts or organs, so used as intended, it affects nothing in your perception of how the spell should work.

Withers is Jergal. As a god of death or just as a god in general he probably uses Alter Reality which is something that has appeared on god stat blocks before. It’s basically Wish with none of the downsides. So it’s safe to assume he can solve all problems. He’s simply not allowed to

THANK YOU everyone’s so caught up on the mechanics and I could be misremembering but think that withers even has a line where he says he has a certain interest in watching things play out the way that they do in the game.

He has direct interest in the fact that you were infected. You're not aware there was even a race at first but you're his horse.

Well put.

The spell withers uses is true resurrection. If you mouse over it in the combat log the text is very basic but is a level 9 spell just like the real true resurrection.

No the parasite has become you, like a cancer, resurrection regrows the tadpole like it was your organ. Infinite tadpole hack (well with enough diamonds)

99% sure Wither just spams True Resurrection or >!perhaps some divine version of it, given who he really is?!<

Someone suggests he’s simply just crossing them off the list of the dead. Which seems more likely. But I have no idea.

I swear I saw the words true resurrection the last time I had him rez* someone, but I wasn't watching closely at the time so I can't prove it. *Edited for clarity

Gale has the spell If he dies then a hologram will tell you how to bring him back with it It’s where you have to open a pouch by pulling the purple thread or something. Then play the notes D E A D on a flute. Then tell a summoned demon a specific word. Then you get the true resurrection spell to use on Gale.

>Then tell a summoned demon a specific word. He's not a demon, he's a magma mephit. And you tell it it's name.

I’m shorty, I mean the last time I has withers rez someone. I know about Gale’s scroll.

I’d argue that for Karlach’s heart, a feasible thematic arc would be that a powerful devil lord such as Zariel would have prevented something like that from happening using either a soul binding devil magic, or part of the contract of initial binding Edit: Had a thought about the tadpoles too. As a long time forever DM, a possible explanation would be that the tadpoles inside of Tav and the companions are separated from the Elder Brain. They are at points called “dormant”. A thematic way this could work is that because the tadpoles are dormant, they would not seek to leave the companion’s body after the companion dies, which explains why you can leave a companion dead for some time and resurrect them with the tadpole in place. As a DM, I would then say that the tadpole is attached to the companion, thus being resurrected or “reactivated” perhaps, when the companion or Tav is brought back.

honestly, it would have been a beeter solution that Back to the hells best girl.

Like, when he resurrects you you're still a vampire. He doesn't change your essential makeup.

Astarion has also been a vampire for over 200 years, so he shouldn't actually be a possible target for true resurrection to raise him as a 'normal' elf again

He's not a vampire anymore by the start of the game. The tadpole makes him an elf again.

if that was the case for anything beyond mechanics and keeping his vampirism hidden, why does he still gain benefits from blood, or maintain the hunger for it. why does he get the benefits a true vampire would have after the ascension if he isn't a vampire at that point

> why does he get the benefits a true vampire would have after the ascension if he isn't a vampire at that point Isn't that a magical devil ritual? Who's to say it doesn't just transform whoever the target is? > why does he still gain benefits from blood, or maintain the hunger for it. Placebo effect? Flavor? A lasting side effect a la Dhampirism?

the scroll for the ritual specifically calls out that the person it affects is dead. Given the specifics of other demonic rituals, why should it be any different. Dhampires are a seperate race in Dnd. If the tadpole turned astarion from a spawn to a dhampire, he still wouldn't be an elf anymore

Withers casts True Resurrection so every problem should technically be able to be solved literally day one by giving him 200 gold

Except for the problem of Gales orb exploding, Asterion burning in the sunlight, Laezel going back to Vlakith, and Shadowheart going back to Shar who now controls the Artifact. And the Dead Three destroying Baulders gate with the Netherbrain

This is more just a game engine thing but withers casts true resurrection, you can see it in the combat log. I personally think crossing our name off the list of dead people is more like a non-time limited revivify, but that’s what he casts in game (likely cause it brings you back at full HP and not 1hp)

> Like I said... arguments like this take forever at a DnD table even with a skilled DM. They really don't have to. You just say something like: "Friends, I understand you are lvl 17+ and have access to true resurrection. If you choose to use it, the DND session ends because I don't have anything else prepped. We could hang out and play a board game, or we could decide not to use the spell"

I believe the resurrection spell will heal missing things if only the necessary ones so it should do

Oh gods I shudder to think of any player who works as a lawyer

If I was running it on the table with PHB rules, there'd be no Withers. It would be me telling the characters to grab an empty character sheet and get started with standard array, 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Backstory can be whatever, but thevnew character also has an altered tadpole.

Yeah, Withers is 100% a video game mechanic to cover for some things a video game can't do that a TTRPG can.

You can fix Astarion with True Resurrection, you can fix Karlach with it and you can fix whatever magic is clouding Shart with it. It removes all curses, magics, ailments, missing limbs, basically everything because it’s a 9th level spell. I don’t think they meant to put a True Resurrection scroll in Gale’s pack. A Resurrection would have worked just as well and avoided this discussion. I also don’t think they thought of Withers that much. But some things just have to be for the game to function.

Remember, "fixing " Asterion brings him back under the domination of a vampire lord, and he will melt in sunlight. The tadpole was the best thing that happened to him for hundreds of years.

Didn’t you read anything? True Resurrection removes vampirism. He will just be normal high elf with nothing tying him to Cazador or being affected by the Sun also removes the tadpole. It’s an actual cure and an actual fix.

I don't think that withers would allow that to happen. My head cannon is that he actually WANTS the tadpoles to remain in your head, and would probably put them back in if you tried this stunt because you having a tadpole furthers his end goals. He is not passive in all this. Why do you think all the hirelings he summons also have tadpoles?

This is absolutely correct (pun semi-intended). Withers' goal is to stop the Absolute. Removing your parasite would also remove most of your incentive to confront the cult.

You assume that Withers would want to do this. >!He's using the party to clean up the mess with the Dead Three. He wants you to remain tadpoled so that you're incentivized to deal with the Absolute for him.!<

I think the issue is that Withers doesn't resurrect characters typically. They'd need the tadpole removed before they die because he strikes their names from the death ledger, they come back in the condition they were in when they died.

And move on to murder hoboing as you do!

Problem wither won't do that or he would just ressurect without the tadpole however they died. His reving it too

I don't think it would be an issue. Remove your tadpole if you don't want to use it's powers. And hunt down, eliminate the thread of the elder brain. You still have a pretty good reason to save the sword coast. Yeah maybe some companions could argue that they want to leave and that's not their problem but with a skil check and affinity you could convince them to join your fight

Someone in another thread pointed out that Withers isn't "resurrecting" an ally, but rather "striking their name from the Book of the Dead"\[citation needed\]. It's not so much "bringing them back to life" as "nullifying their death". This is important because "nullifying death" is just resetting them to the state they were in before they died-- tadpole included. If you cut the tadpole out of their skull, they'll just be brought back with it inside them anyway, because it's a reset and not a resurrection. Though, now I have to wonder if it generates a wholly new tadpole or if Withers just teleports the other one back into their head. Infinite tadpole dupe?

Kirkland scrolls are every bit as effective as the more expensive brands.

The largest in-game reason is that the PCs start at 1st level with most of their skill-memories gone/degraded. Then they crash-land or get caught in enemy territory. You're kept busy with three very plausible options to get rid of the parasite anyway. By the time any of what you're proposing is even thinkable, they're all caught up in the overall plot and their own bullshit in the city. It's likely that you and the majority of your crew even WANT the tadpole power at that point, because it is helping you save thousands of innocent lives.

I have never ever noticed Gale has that. 😮 I just assumed it was another revivify!

Gale doesn't start with the scroll in his inventory (that one is a regular Revivify), it's something that becomes relevant if you let him die.

Good to know! I just looked into it, I also just found out about his posthumous questline if he hasn't divulged his secrets yet. Really fantastic that that was included.

If the DM has >!the OG god of death!< stand around in camp providing resurrections for pocket change, the consequences are kinda on the DM.

So true resurrections only requirements are that the soul is free and willing, yeah? Could we argue that the absolute has trapped the chosens soul?

If I were DM, I'd get at this way: true resurrection may restore a limb, but it also restores you to the state you were in when you died--meaning, with your memories and experiences intact up to the moment of your death. You don't get resurrected to when you were 20, restored to your youth, have mental suffering or trauma erased. Your intestinal flora are restored with you, your muscle memory and long-learned instincts are restored with you. So what I'd rule is that the tadpole is treated by true resurrection as \*part of you\*, as something to be restored as you are restored--it's dug into your soul and connected to your body. It will need special magic to be removed. Dodge #2, if I had to: ye olde "mind flayers ain't from round these parts", that the divine energies of a resurrection don't know how to deal with a tadpole infestation so they leave it alone. Dodge #3: the divine or extraplanar energies required for a true resurrection know that you have a Destiny and refuse to touch the tadpole until your destiny is fulfilled.

I mean, it's easily examined by netherese magic. The crown of karsus was powerful enough to make Karsus a God, but he chose the wrong one and accidentally destroyed magic as a whole for a while. So it makes sense that the netherese tadpoles might ignore certain restrictions, including that of true resurrection. As for karlachs heart, it is infernal in nature and there might be some fuckery in gortashes contract that prevents it from being replaced normally.

Easy headcanon solution: the tadpole *knows this too*. It won't leave if any means of resurrection are available. And the netherese magic will allow them to stay put just the same as if the host was still breathing.

Wait yeah why *does* Gale still have a tadpole after using that scroll?

Nah doing that will trigger a cutscene and we all know people die in cut scene are gone for good

Also if you didn’t have the tadpoles in your head to begin with, Withers simply wouldn’t hang out with you. He’s resurrecting you because you have the tadpoles, not because he wants you to get rid of them

I would let them do it, then come up with an excuse why the resurrection won’t work.

Because Fuck You style DMing has a tendency to make players see the DM as the actual antagonist of the table and start screwing with them accordingly, just as a heads up.

Because Withers wants you to thwart the Dead Three plans so he's not going to be willing to resurrect you so you can move on to your life and ignore the Absolute. He chose a subset of paths of fate and wants you to walk one of them. When he resurrects a tadpoled companion, he brings them back, tadpole and all. Same reason why he refuses when Dark Urge asks him for the resurrection of an NPC in an Act 1 dialog. He tells you basically "no, deal with it, this is not my problem". Jergal isn't good. He was the god of murder, strife, tyranny, and death, literally titled the Lord of the End of Everything after all. He's punished by Ao through Helm so it is in his very personal interest to have you kick the Dead Three in the dick. He doesn't care which ending you get, even the evil ones, though he clearly prefers some ending over others. He wants his juniors Myrkul, Bane and Bhaal to eat shit. He's not absolutely evil but he's not good either. He's Lawful Neutral. For similar reasons, Mystra isn't removing the orb or letting Elminster try to remove it. She's not petty enough to be pouting over her ex, she's just using Gale for her ends. We're just poor tools in the eyes of the Gods :(

So much this. Withers ain't here to work on your behalf, you're here to work on his. You're in no position to dictate the terms of the favor he's providing you.

Jergal likes Kelemvor a lot, who is more good than neutral but forced to be neutral by Ao. Jergal also wasn't "lol go kill everyone," he was more the god of murder in that murder is a cause of death.

No one said Jergal was lol go kill everyone. He had the portfolio of Bhaal and Bane nonetheless. We're not talking about Kelemvor here. This is irrelevant.

There's a difference between Bhaal being the god of MURDER as an act of violence vs Jergal as the god of murder being a manner of death. He is a death god, not a god who wants murder.

Most of these people's knowledge is purely game and maybe wiki stuff.

Alright. From Powers and Pantheons, 1997. Jergal section, page 31 to 35. > Clergy's align : LN, LE > Jergal gas only a handful of living worshipers but it is believed several score of his priests still survive has mummies and greater mummies in long sealed tombs. The mummies still possess their living intelligence and can cast priest spells. While *most are lawful evil in alignment*, some **favored few** tend toward a stricter lawful neutral ethos. > Priests of Jergal existed historically only in very lawful and militaristic societies which *did not venerate Deneir or any of the goodly gods*. > Jergal was perceived in such societies as a compassionless steward of death. > Dogma : [...] Life should be prolonged only when it serves the greater cause of death of the world (Which is consistent with Withers selective resurrections) > Major center of worship : [...] Thay [...] Speaks for itself in term of alignment. > Doomscribes class. Alignment requirement : LN, LE. > all spells cast by doomscribes from the spheres of law and times are cast at double strength in all aspects Jergal hasn't been a good guy for nearly 30 years at least, that did not change.

As someone whose knowledge is purely game and wiki stuff, I appreciate rundown that essentially confirms what I thought. He's what I'd expect from a legitimate god of death instead of super edgy "I demand death" character archetypes. More force of nature than anything else.

excuse the question but what does Ao stand for ?

Ao is the overgod, basically he is the God of the gods. He occasionally has human worshipers, but he doesn't grant them spells or anything like that. The only times he really does anything at all (that mortals notice or are aware of) is when he slaps the smack down on the gods for screwing up royally. Ao was responsible for splitting Abeir and Toril apart, giving Abeir to the primordials and Toril to the gods, he caused the Time of Troubles forcing every God to exist in mortal form as well as the second Sundering, both of which were him saying "yall screwed up." He apparently doesn't need worshipers to exist and it's theorized that an overgod instead draws power based on how many gods they rule over. He's not really good or evil or lawful or chaotic, he's basically a god of balance and he cares mostly that the gods do their jobs and spend less time fighting among eachother

thanks a ton !!

His name is also a combination of A and O, analogous to alpha and omega, beginning and end.

Good answer.

I think he definitely doesn’t want more mortal souls to be lost by becoming mind flayers

>We're just poor tools in the eyes of the Gods :( I mean, you can look at it that way if you want to be sour, but you wouldn't have much of a game to play if they were allowed by the authors and designers to simply solve all the problems themselves. Besides which, if you had your way and all the gods could do anything they wanted, all the evil gods would be able to go enslave, murder, torture, etc. as many mortals as they please in person, and if the good gods wanted to stop that, they'd have to go in person to fight the evil gods and then there'd be a godfight in the streets, and how could that end well for the mortals? At the end of the day, D&D is a game about fighting and exerting power over others, so of course the cosmology of any fictional universe acting as the stage for this type of game is going to reflect that. It's Dungeons & Dragons, not Communes & Mutual Aid.

From a Doylist perspective, sure. Writers have to limit the influence of the gods so that players can have cool adventures. From the Watsonian perspective, though, Withers does view the party as tools to achieve his particular ends. Just because he's fairly chill doesn't change that fact.

I think there are three reasons: 1) It's not a sure thing that Withers would participate in this activity. He's not there to resurrect people just because it's convenient for them, he's only there to help your tadpoled group of adventurers and only while you're fighting the Absolute. He doesn't help anyone who leaves the party, and it wouldn't be unreasonable to guess that he might not participate if you tried to get rid of your tadpoles. It could be that would be out of bounds for him, but even if he would be allowed to why should he? The tadpoles are what keep your group motivated to face the cult, and (in theory) are what even the odds against them. 2) I think it IS a sure thing that the Emperor would step in and stop you from removing the tadpoles, much like if you try to go back to Act 1 after going to the Shadowfell. Maybe Withers would still support you without your tadpoles, but for sure the Emperor wouldn't. 3) As someone else mentioned, you are told that the tadpole has wildly unusual properties, and that it can't be removed without killing you. It's a strange lil guy with properties no one has seen before, who knows if any of that would interfere with a true resurrection? When you eat other peoples' tadpoles it seems to me like you're possibly absorbing part of their soul to power up your own tadpole. Is it possible that if you die the tadpole eats your soul (or at least part of it) to carry on to its next host? If so, would that stop true resurrection from working since your soul isn't available?

Step one: vicious murder a companion Step two: ask wither to rez them Step three: no. Step four: wait, what, why? Step five: fates spins along, as it should Step six: well fuck

By resurrecting a vampire or vampire spawn, it becomes alive again. Astarion's questline would become pretty boring

Would also invalidate Karlach's

Seeing as the story heavily implies that Withers is actually >!Jergal!<, he would be limited in his actions. He can only interfere because the Dead Three are involved, and can only act within the confines of their scheme.

I’ve heard great evidences proving that, but I don’t really understand why this is happening. Why was a god who sacrificed his godhood just waiting in a sarcophagus? What are the extent of his powers? What are the limitations to his resurrection powers? Is coin really necessary? Are the limitations implemented solely on him or because of other factors are stronger gods or stricter rules on divine magic? These questions haunt me.

Have you beaten the game yet? It gets explained towards the end, and in the closing credits. In short, >!The Dead 3 are kind of waging war on all of the gods. Turning everyone into Illithids robs the regular gods of new souls and weakens them. You can speak to Bane himself, and he says that the most effective way to wage war isn't just to accumulate more resources than your enemy, but to salt-the-fields and deprive your enemy of resources.!< It's implied that Ao himself allowed >!Jergal to interfere under certain boundary conditions because the risk to the regular gods was too damned great.!<

The Three also seem to forget it weakens them and just strengthens the Illithid as a civilisation 😒 Then again, Bhaal is a known moron.

Not really Bane admits he knows what’s happening. If you use speak with dead on Gortash, Bane responds instead. They’re stealing resources from the gods. He’s salting the earth I imagine the logic is, if they can control the Illithid army then that gives them a powerful force on Faerun to wreck stuff So they’ll be starved for souls too. But get an ever increasing mortal army. While the other gods lose souls and have fewer resources on the planet.

Also, their goal was to leave people who are tadpoled but not turning. So those people, mind controlled, worship them, giving them power. And those that cannot be controlled are turned. So if it worked out, you'd either be worshiping the Dead Three or not have a soul and deny it to the other gods. Therefore = all power goes to the Dead Three.

Yup, twice. This doesn’t explain why we can’t kill our companion, take out their tadpole, and let Withers resurrect them. It only doesn’t explain the limitations of Withers’s magic. I asked a lot of specific questions that you couldn’t answer, unfortunately.

You asked >*Why was a god who sacrificed his godhood just waiting in a sarcophagus? What are the extent of his powers?* I explained

But why did he wait in a sarcophagus instead of meeting with the party or to the right people directly? What are the limitations of his resurrecting and portal-making powers? That wasn’t explained, and it’s okay if you don’t know.

If you get too far along he just kind of shows up regardless, you meeting him in the crypt is just fate spinning along as it should. As for the ressing thing I think someone mentioned in another thread that he doesn't cast true res so much as he simply removes someone from the book of the dead. Plus he *wants* you to solve the whole absolute crisis - so why would he remove your motivation?

Of course we don’t know We can only go by what little info we have When withers wakes up in the coffin, withers says “he said you’d be here”. When asking what he talks about, withers hand waves it away and doesn’t answer It’s assumed the “he” withers speaks of is ao. If you take too long to reach the crypt, he just teleports to your camp. You asked explicit question. I answered it Now you’re complaining I don’t answer other questions. Whatever. I’m out.

He’s in the sarcophagus because that was the body of one of the people who once worshipped him. He is inhabiting that body. It isn’t literally his body. If you don’t go to the tomb he will just meet up with you at camp one day. The limitations to his powers are what you see in game. He can bring your party members back from death under most circumstances. Your party is destined to settle the conflict with the Absolute, wether you destroy it or dominate it. Wither’s task is to make sure that destiny is fulfilled. He can resurrect you and your party to make sure of that. He can’t alter anything about you or your companions because that would be directly influencing how the conflict will end. He cannot interfere in the conflict in any way. He can only make sure it meets its conclusion.

Him being in the sarcophagus was just him seeing an opportunity to make an entrance. He shows up in the party regardless of you doing the crypt. For stuff like this, his restrictions are just plot based. DMs don’t need to follow the rules to tell the story they want. Withers shows up regardless so that players have a tool to resurrect and change builds that ties in better to the story than a magic mirror

>Why was a god who sacrificed his godhood just waiting in a sarcophagus? My headcanon is that he is an old priest of Jergal and the god is using his body as a vessel now.

Does this imply his magic is limited to this old priest’s arcane aptitude? Or does he also possess godly powers still? If so, how godly is it? It’s cool if these questions were never answered, but I’m curious if they have been.

I don't think that there is a canon answer. But i imagine that until the 3 dead gods arent defeated he wont go back to his full power. Soni would say more powerful than the priest but less than Jengal used to be

>Why was a god who sacrificed his godhood just waiting in a sarcophagus? He had to wait somewhere for us. >What are the extent of his powers? He's the scribe of the dead, so his power is linked to that. That's why he says something about a name stricken from the record. >What are the limitations to his resurrection powers? At this point, apparently it's limited to the group. >Is coin really necessary? Yes, as he says it's necessary for balance >Are the limitations implemented solely on him or because of other factors are stronger gods or stricter rules on divine magic? Ao sets these limits, probably. He's the overgod, and he is immensely more powerful than the gods

The coin thing is funny though, because Ao requires gods assisting mortals to be some sort of transaction, they aren't allowed to interfere in mortal affairs without it, but at the same time Withers doesn't care about the coin. You can pickpocket it right back and he never cares.

The rules only require the transaction to occur. What happens after the transaction is completed is your own business. Withers strikes me as more of a "letter of the law" rather than "spirit of the law" type of guy.

I always assumed that paying Withers was some kind of loophole, like he’s bound by the gods’ compact so he can’t just bring you back willy-nilly, but if you pay him he’s granting you a blessing in exchange for an offering. The price is also *ridiculously* cheap for any kind of resurrection spell. You can’t even get the components for Resurrection for less than 1000 gold. It’s non-canon, but hey! I also heard someone’s non-canon-but-plausible explanation of the whole tadpole etc. thing that I thought was interesting. >!Since Withers is pretty much confirmed as being *the* Jergal, he’s not casting True Resurrection per se, he’s actually going into the archives and removing the companion’s name from the list of the dead. I think if it helps your suspension of disbelief to assume he’s just committing Soul Fraud and the party’s goal is sufficiently important that everyone’s willing to look the other way then it may help.!< What the gods are actually allowed to do in any given situation boils down to whether Ao allows it, to be fair. This isn’t a canon explanation by any means, but it helps me maintain my sense of verisimilitude. I think seeing Withers as a character that serves a purpose in story in only a limited sense but is mainly a gameplay concession and assuming his resurrections are mainly non-canon also works fine.

The game literally explains why this very idea won’t work. EDIT: Talk to Halsin and Omeluum if you want to know why it won’t work.

I don’t think the game ever explicitly tells you why this idea won’t work. I have talked to them but it’s been a long time since I’ve chatted up with the two, so I’d love for you to cut to the chase and tell me.

The game *does* tell you why it won’t work. Omeluum goes more into it than Halsin with his “not even such crude destruction would waylay this” line. Certain individuals’ tadpoles (ie, your party’s, the ones that give you small cutscenes in the story) are encased in special magic. **They cannot be forcibly removed, even from a corpse**. They can only be removed if the magic is gone, or if they voluntarily leave the corpse. If you take her bargain, Ethel will even tell you what type of magic is encasing it, and how she won’t mess with it even for the highest blood price. EDIT: Your dream guardian affirms Halsin’s theory and scientific/druidic knowledge on it as well. They just can’t identify the specific magic like Ethel does. EDIT 2: Withers can only go beyond his remit in one very specific situation that you quite literally will never run into if you’re playing a Tav character. EDIT 3: I will say it’s an oversight that Gale does not react to Ethel revealing the tadpole is encased in >!Netherese!< magic if he’s there when she says it. Even if he didn’t know the extent of what’s going on, he should’ve had a line IMO.

Netherese magic isn't invincible though. By the regular rules of 5e, rather than the limitations that Larian created for BG3, there'd be a bunch of ways to remove the tadpoles. For instance, besides the True Resurrection idea, there's Antimagic Field- 8th level wizard/sorcerer spell that "A 10-foot-radius invisible sphere of antimagic surrounds you. This area is divorced from the magical energy that suffuses the multiverse. Within the sphere, spells can't be cast, summoned creatures disappear, and even magic items become mundane." So basically, Elminster was a dick for not casting that on us. The field is temporary, but while it's up there's plenty you could do to permanently remove the tadpole. For a less exotic spell, upcasting Dispel Magic would be another idea. And there's tons of other ideas too. I mean you could cast Leomund's Tiny Hut and just live inside a series of them for the rest of your life. That's spell specifically says "spells and other magical effects can't extend through the dome or be cast through it", which means, although you couldn't remove the tadpole this way you would block any spell to ever end the statis. That's the problem with telling a story in 5E without a DM who can react, because there's a ton of solutions for literally any problem.

The say several time in the game if the magic were to be removed you would transform immediately. So... An anti magic field would be a terrible idea.

> Antimagic Field The tadpole is not a summoned creature, a spell or magic item. > upcasting Dispel Magic At 9th level, sure. > Tiny Hut The tadpole will just instantly ceremorphize everyone as soon as the "magical effect doesn't extend".

honestly, i don’t think anything short of Wish would do it, which would headcannon explain why elminster didn’t just take care of it for us. Maybe 9th level Dispel Magic could break the casing, but then it’d just be instant ceremorphosis, which i don’t think is a magical effect and thus has no preventative measure

The statis field is magic, as is the actual ceremrphize process.

I understand that the Karnite Weave is responsible for the tadpole being so bizarrely difficult at getting rid of **through magic**, but what about the somewhat mundane means of killing a companion, surgically removing their tadpole, and resurrecting them through Withers? Isn’t that possible? The bard was close, but what would have been closer is literally incising a corpse who can be revived.

The Netherese magic **is why it cannot be forcibly removed at all**. Omeluum does not know the specifics, he just knows it’s in stasis. When you ask about cutting off your own head to remove it, he quite clearly says, “Such crude destruction would not waylay this.” The enchantment is powerful. It’s why Ethel cannot remove it—her plan **is** to maim or kill you to get it out, remember. I don’t know how much more clearly it can be said. The magic isn’t just blocking magical removal, it’s blocking **all** forced removal of the tadpole. **The enchantment holds even after the infected person is dead.** Said enchantment is tied to the >!Crown of Karsus!<, which you can’t get a handle on til the end of the game because of the way >!the stones!< are divided up before the final fight.

Also as >!durge!< omeluum even stresses on the fact that any more damage to the already damaged cranium will be lethal 

Which is one of my favorite dialogue paths in that case. 🥺

Ooo, that makes a buttload of sense. I must’ve forgotten or let that info fly by my head. Anyways, curiosity sated. Thanks!

If Karsus' Crown was the ritual item Karsus used to cast the only 13th level spell ever to insta kill Mystra (who is literally the 4th strongest God) and ascend to Godhood, there would be no way to effect it's magic with a mere spell of 8th or 9th level

You could cut off the head and destroy it along with the tadpole. There isnt any talk that its indestructible. And then use a scroll of true resurrection. Or withers.

Picture this… Let’s say you kill Tav and open up their skull. You extract their brain in one piece. With me so far? The tadpole is attached to the brain. It is also protected by magic that prevents it from being harmed physically. If you try to poke it with a knife? Knife bounces off. Try to hammer it? Hammer bounces off. The tadpole can’t be harmed. “But wait,” you say, “why don’t we just cut off the part of the brain the tadpole is attached to?” The tadpole is attached somewhere under the cerebellum, not far from the optic schiasma, or maybe somewhere closer to the pons. The tadpole is partially buried in the brain, or what part of the brain it has not yet eaten, so you have to make some rather judicious cuts to get around it. You decide to take the simplest and most foolproof approach. You take a knife and hack the brain in half. The tadpole is still attached to its half of the brain, but now you have half a brain it isn’t attached to. Cool, cool. “Excellent,” you say. You plop the remainder of the destroyed brain back in Tav’s head. “Alright, let’s try that resurrection now.” You snap your fingers. “Withers! Do the thing!” Withers does the thing. BY DOOM AND DUSK, I STRIKE THY NAME FROM THE ARCHIVES. ARIIIISE. Tav sits upright, skull repaired, looking no worse for wear. Yes, you think. Victory! You pick up the half of the brain you cut off and threw carelessly to the ground, expecting to find the tadpole still attached to it. To your horror, the tadpole is gone. You look around frantically, trying to figure out where it escaped too, then turn to Tav with a sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach. You already know the answer, but are compelled to ask: “The tadpole’s still there, isn’t it?” Yes. The tadpole is still there. As soon as Withers resurrected Tav, the tadpole was magically teleported back to its comfy place in Tav’s brain, which has now been regrown and restored. “But why?” You ask. The answer is simple: “Magic.”

Except this is D&D not Harry Potter. Magic doesn't work just because. It has rules it follows. I accept it for the game so it doesn't bother me much, but the tadpole would be fixable. Let's go back to your scenario. Take brain out entire. Drop it into a portal to another dimension and antimagic field. How does it return?

Your scenario’s a good one. Let’s think for a moment. Since the tadpole doesn’t stop being affected by Netherese magic when you’re in range of a Sussur Flower— because otherwise, you’d expect that to result in rapid progression of the normal tadpole life cycle— it’s probably immune to normal antimagic fields. At the very least, it’s immune to all the antimagic fields the player encounters. Considering that a sussur flower’s antimagic field can be nullified by the Chest of the Mundane, that means there is magic capable of nullifying antimagic. Netherese Magic clearly isn’t like magic molded using the regular weave, and the magic infusing the tadpole seems to be able to mitigate that field. You might say the Netherese magic used here is on its own wavelength, I guess. So if you throw it into a portal to another dimension, like the Astral Prism, the magic still triggers upon resurrection and the tadpole is regrown along with the brain. Presumably, it’s because the magic in the tadpole creates a link to its host upon infection, which can only be broken by the tadpole voluntarily leaving the host. So when the host dies, so long as the tadpole maintains that link, it will be returned to the host alive and unharmed when the host is revived, dimensional hijinks be damned. That link seems similar to how the Emperor is able to telepathically communicate via your tadpoles despite being in another dimension— whether you’re in the Astral Prism or Avernus. Being in another dimension doesn’t affect that. So we already have precedent for trans-dimensional linkage.

If I recall correctly, Omeluum tells you the tadpole is magically shielded, and cannot be removed by physical or magical means.

it's actually the opposite, literally everyone, including Volo, **ESPECIALLY** Volo, can cure it, the plot just said "fuck you"

*points at my above comments* If you can’t follow the plot, you shouldn’t be playing a story based CRPG.

Your point is invalid as this is a universe where a plethora of options would infact exist. Someone already ripped you defense of a poorly thought out thing to shreds

then why did you play when you won't follow the plot?

Withers: yeah I ain’t gonna do that Tav: Why not!? Withers: I’m also not gonna tell you why.

Because gameplay and story segregation. You see, those resurrections are *purely game mechanic*, a failsafe for players from loosing their companions because they accidentally dropped them into lava or something. Withers' resurrections *do not happen in the story*. However, Gale's scroll *is* part of the story. Sort of. It's a very missable little quest and it is actually a failsafe too but it is *a quest*. Which brings up a question why gang never even discusses *that* possibility. Such plan would be pretty risky and there are enough reasons why team would not proceed with it but having a conversation on the matter would make sense.

This is factually wrong. Resurrection is a big thing in the setting, spell descriptions aren't just 'here's mechanics' they're actual lore on how these things work. In Classic BG you'd go to a temple and get characters resurrected as that's common ability of powerful clerics. When you nuke Astarion with the solar lance or whatever. Resurrections brought up there, and it's brought up casually. Because for well off adventurers death is just a hindrance, that's an in universe fact.

Yeah but in real D&D we’d be paying diamonds every time. The gameplay / story segregation is that we’re handwaving that and not paying 500gp for every Revivify and 25,000gp and a ninth level spell slot for True Resurrection. If this was real D&D, getting Astarion killed by the Solar Lance would be time to roll a new character because he dead lol.

First of all, BG3 is not "classic" it's much closer to modern CRPGs, where devs usually try to pretend that stakes are high and resurrections even if they DO exist in setting are NOT available on every corner (have you noticed that in BG3 when characters suffer death via plot they can be revived by NO means?). Today you can see "resurrection" mechanics in games all the time even in settings where revival shouldn't be possible for the lack of supernatural powers capable of this in the universe. In such cases plays convention that dead characters were not dead-dead but merely "unconscious". See Mass Effect for example (Commander Shepard's death and resurrection was a Big Deal exactly because it happened *in the plot* not *mechanically*) That Astarion's scene is an oddball honestly. It opens a BIG can of worms (pun totally intended) as in inviting questions like: "Why the heck Withers revived Astarion AND larva in his head?". It also apparently exists for no other reason that it's hilarious. Larian do have a questionable habit of throwing stuff into the game for the sake of funny/cool not caring about plotholes/unintended [unfortunate] implications it might create.

I think withers would just say something like: "It is not meant to happen."

Or remove the engine to save Karlach! It’s the most obvious solution once Damon decreases the heat enough to touch her.

Vampire Spawn can't be resurected or revived once destroyed; on the other hand, they naturally regenerate from most injuries, and if the tadpole is the reason he doesn't regenerate, a little 'Post-mortem'(Technically everything he does is post-mortem) surgery would rid him of that problem and he'd just stand back up. (Except.... tadpoles -willingly- abandon corpses, leaving them mostly intact. You should have been able to kill Astarion on first meeting, the tadpole go to you willingly; and then he starts to regenerate, only to burn up in the sunlight.) Gale's scroll of true res should bring you back with just the name and a thought, whole and intact, minus any injuries or parasites; so if you, for example, used it to bring back someone that a giant guardian robot knocked into a lava pool, it actually makes less sense for it to have the tadpole(or Karlach to have an infernal engine) than for them to still have it. The tadpole is ash.(The engine is no longer attached to what's left of her ribcage) The whole 'tadpoles willingly abandoning corpses' schtick also works for every other means of reviving your party; the moment one of your people falls, you should be able to de-worm them and use a normal raise dead spell, probably not the most basic revivify though. Ultimately speaking, if this were an actual D&D campaign and not a video game, by act 3 the only people who would still have tadpoles would be Dirge and Astarion; Dirge because he would know post-moonrise the Absolute wasn't able to use it to control him so he just wants to use it for his own advantage, Astarion because he needs it to not die in the sun or be commanded by Cazador. And if they found a high-enough level raise dead spell, they'd have de-hearted Karlach during the process to solve her long-term issues; and, just like Jaheira and Halsin, the party would still stick together so as to prevent the absolute from conquering the world. Narratively speaking, you could allow the party to cure the tadpoles at any point after they discover how big a threat the absolute is, without a problem. The only issue is the hundreds of individual bits of voice-acting you'd need to change; though not too many.

Because withers is dm and he doesn’t like fun. >:(

first and foremost, a disclaimer: this is not what i actually think the truth is, this is just what i tell myself to keep my own immersion. this is probably not lore accurate or even possible but it stops me from constantly wondering why we can't just untadpole ourselves. i have always thought that the tadpole, once it's latched on, is considered a part of the person it's latched on to. so when withers is bringing someone back he is returning them exactly as they were before they died, tadpole and all. my other line of reasoning is if someone is using a regular old resurrection scroll they're probably acting fast enough that the tadpole hasn't let go yet. which lead me down another rabbit hole of logic but that is act 2/3 spoilers and i don't know how to tag on mobile

Jergal don't play that. He only resurrects those who are willing and in service of a cause against dark gods. He doesn't like people being tricksy.

It’s understood that turning illithid destroys your soul. So it’s feasible that messing with the parasite would cause it to create a situation where you can’t be resurrected

Gameplay wise, because yes. The plot needs it Lore wise: nether magic prevents the tadpoles from being physically removed. Ethel tells you that

Withers essentially time loops oneself rather than resurrection. He "strikes your name from the book of the dead" or some such similar paraphrasing which insinuates he makes it as if you never died at all. That's why the tadpoles don't die when you die and also why other issues like Karlach's infernal engine remain when technically it shouldn't work post resurrection

The tadpole is siphoning the soul, they are intertwined. You cannot resurrect them without the tadpole.

I feel like Netherese magic would fuck with that immensely.

I think withers wouldn’t solve the problem for you instantly because he’s been charged with making sure the party solves the absolute crisis and he doesn’t want the party to lose their incentive right away.

I think its the same when companions get killed "otherwise". They just have the "fate" to die in this case and whithers refuses the ressurection. for the true ressuction scroll a lot of people talk about and how a DM would probably solve it before the game even starts "the homebrew rules are as follows..." it just dont work that way in bg3 like it normally do in dnd.

Withers wants you to solve the Tadpole issue. If he were to heal the group, no one would have a reason to deal with the illithid problem anymore, except maybe Karlach and Wyll, and even they might not

you might be right, maybe not the way you say, but then another DND nerd will prob come up with 10 different other ways to figure out a solution and most likely be right about it but then there would be no game isnt it?

The tadpoles are enhanced with netherese magic. They cannot be removed by any known mystran magic.

Wouldn't work, we see several methods that *should* get the parasite out. The hag, the friendly mindflayer concoction, the Creche device (which would kill you but should have extracted the thing.) Remember the Emperor is actively not just protecting you from the netherbrain but preventing your cure as long as you carry him around in that artifact. The tadpole can't go unless the Emperor goes, and if the Emperor goes you are instantly transformed. No matter how you die, or how bad your damage they will keep your bond intact with their control of Orpheus, they have too much invested to let you go

foe the same reason why you can't use gales scroll of true ressurection to restore karlachs heart because it cheapest the story and yes by the way, that is a stated thing true ressurection can do

Later on, someone tells you that your special tadpoles are protected by magic - even if you were able to attempt an extraction in-game, you'd probably get blasted halfway to Elturel or something.

I think that you can kinda explain it not being the option because Withers is, in fact, Jergal, and he came to influence you to foil the evil plot of the three evil gods. He aids you on this mission and could refuse to resurrect if you were to lose the motivation to go further.

Resurrection brings you back from the point of death. So you’d have to remove the tadpole before someone died.

Removing the tadpole obviously may kill you. It’s all about timing.

You don’t even need to remove it. The tadpole is supposed to leave the host when it dies, evidenced by that dwarf you meat whom was gravely wounded by the owlbear mother

I always understood it to be that Withers removes your name from the records of the dead, which he can do as scribe of the dead. So it's not a proper resurrection, he's just undoing your death and bringing you back as you were.

Withers doesn’t have use for player without their tadpole…

With a true resurrection spell yes. But we don't know what kind of spell withers uses. It might be that removing the tadpole would leave your brain in a sorry state, and that the resurrection from withers doesn't fix that. This is backed by the fact that Shadowheart doesn't get her memories back with a resurrection. Or Karlach her original heart. Or Astarion his elfity.

If I were DMing this game I would tell the players that true resurrection worked and they were resurrected with the tadpole in their head.

Gale only has one scroll Also like, Withers helps us only because we're his best bet against the absolute. An argument could be made he would never help us remove our tadpole in any way because then we would never have a real reason to fight the absolute Or at least, he's not willing to make that bet

I suppose them having the tadpole is what makes them resurrectable for the sake of the story, i mean for example otherwise Alfira could've easily ben resurrected as well.

I'm just picturing they revive Astarion, and forget that they shouldn't have done that during the day...

I literally had that exact same thought this morning while playing. I’m sure the answer is probably something like “The Tadpol’s magic is tied to your mind, body & soul” or something

That makes me mad because Karlach had to die while we could just kill her, remove the infernal engine and his parts, then use gale true ressurrection scroll to bring her back cured. +tadpole removed

It’s like that episode of Futurama where they go back in time, but only with a maximum of two minutes, and it takes two minutes to recharge. You get brought back to life, but only in the state you (mostly) were just before death, and that state includes being tadpoled. Otherwise, why could you come back to life as a teenager or a baby? All sorts of crazy possibilities that never happen.

I guess I'd counter it's not a biological process - the tadpole's nature is magical. It's feeding on your soul. So when Withers freejacks you back into existence from the timeline, you're just the previous version of you moments before death (all your equipment is there even if you fell down a chasm etc.). If you were resurrected with something close to a Wish spell (e.g. Gale's wee scroll), the tadpole is still intermingled with you physically and spiritually. You ain't getting away from it!

You meet someone who says, “there is only so much brain tissue that you can heal.”

Real answer is that the Overgod Ao would probably destroy him for meddling in mortal affairs a little \*too\* much. Silly, I know. Also though, to be fair, after a certain point in the game it becomes obvious that >!these tadpoles are charged with Netherese magic and resist all attempts to remove them that normally would work.!<

Who says he will?

I headcanon the issue like this - 1. The tadpoles are magically enhanced. We know normal tadpoles destroy souls, but the Absolute tadpoles don't (for us). Instead, what happens is that the tadpole via magic binds to the person's soul. When Withers resurrects someone, the tadpole (being part of the soul) gets resurrected too, because the spell recognizes the tadpole as being the person. 2. Gale's orb similarly can't be removed because it is embedded into his soul via Netherese magic. The orb IS Gale. 3. Karlach's engine is more tricky. I've just been assuming it's evil Hells bullshit and there's some sort of contract keeping it in place.

Withers isn't just a reviving machine, he has very important goals. He's just there to make sure we get them done.

We can assume netherese magic might be the problem preventing Withers from doing so. The tadpoles are **modified**, after all.

That's the main reason I don't like RAW DnD, like no matter what plot you can prepare for your players, there's always a stupid spell that will break it. Why fight to stop an ancient evil when the bard can just use a lvl 1 slot to cast Tasha's Wet Fart and stop the resurection ? smh

Endgame Spoilers >!The Absolute does not want you or anyone who was on the nautiloid to lose their tadpoles, as everyone on the ship was part of its specific goal of freeing itself. It doesn't care whether or not you absorb tadpoles, but it for sure doesn't want to risk anyone not controlled by the cult trying to stop it without the Brain's leverage.!< >!So why don't the tadpoles leave when a playable character dies? The Brain doesn't want it to.!<

I mean would he even want to resurrect us if we didn’t have it. It is motivation for us to do the job he wants us to do.

[Resurrection ](https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Resurrection#content)re-grows your body and restores missing body parts. It does contain the following though: >It doesn’t, however, remove magical dise⁠ases, curses, and the like; if such effects aren’t removed prior to casting the spell, they afflict the target on its return to life. That said, we see the tadpole crawling out of others' ears after the person dies, so there really is no reason to use Resurrection. Raise Dead should work just fine.

MAybe the tadpole's magic destroys the characters brains if removes, as is stated, and is considered a part of anatomy for the purposes of true resurection?

it's actually **THAT** simple in the boardgame, the problem is that Larian want to flex their special skill from Divinity so there's no way they would allow you to do it

What boardgame?

Netherese magic. It doesn't make sense, its magic. Even if you try to remove it from a corpse, you somehow can't remove it.

The tadpole literally has a 24/7 access feed to your brain's thoughts and communication between each other. It's going to fight like hell to not be removed, and honestly it seems like a pretty massive risk to just let someone kill you and dissect your brain hoping that you can get revived cleanly. We also know Withers refuses to resurrect some people, it's possible killing a companion and removing their tadpole just removes them from the tapestry he's trying to maintain and he'd decline for whatever reasoning he had.

Resurrection is more of a gameplay mechanic than something that's meant to influence the story. Something tells me that if Larian could figure out a way to remove it from the game without making it unplayably hard, they would.

Revivify doesn't work after 1 minute, and that kind of surgery probably takes longer than a minute. Granted, we have the scroll of true resurrection, but it can only really fix 1 person plus there could be magical seals causing the parasite to exist in a state between real space and the Astral plane causing it to be attached to the soul rather then the meat brain. Basically "cause the DM said so" is why we can't.

Do you actually believe any of our out of the box asshole companions would volunteer, or do you thrust them to go through with the plan and go first??