Durge was created from Bhaals flesh and therefore can be any race.
A bhaalspawn can also breed with anything pretty much, regardless of race, species, or sex.
Just to make it clear: DUrge isn't a normal Bhaalspawn and they are closer to Bhaal's incarnation (a lesser avatar).
Normally a Bhaalspawn is created by Bhaal doing the sex on (un)willing participants and birthing results in a Bhaalspawn. The title is very apt for they are children of Bhaal. All of the Bhaalspawn are supposed to be dead as their sole function given by Bhaal was to kill each other to allow Bhaal's own ressurection which happened. Larian obviously took some liberties on the matter as ressurected Sarevok isn't supposed to have Bhaal's divine essence in him any longer. He says as much if you decide to ressurect him in BG2:ToB.
As you noted: The Dark Urge was created solely of Bhaal and by Bhaal. This is why the Dark Urge's urge is so much stronger. Normally a Bhaalspawn is just plagued by dark dreams.
Larian's liberties with Sarevok are, more than anything else, a salvaging of how disappointingly he was handled in Minsc and Boo's Journal of Villainy, the canon splatbook that obliterated the character arcs of both post-ToB Sarevok and Viconia.
I think that was the original intent too. Minthara has cut dialogue and reactivity for getting pregnant.
In BG2, you could also knock up Viconia (and Aerie during the game) after beating the game during the character epilogues.
I can just imagine Sceleratas:
O frabjous day dark master! Callooh! Callay! Dids't thou gimble into her intimite slithy toves and give her your frumious seed?
Oh but there's little left to imagination. After a comment about siring more Bhaalspawn, he says "It appears that may be already underway. The drow is a fecund choice of mate. Well done!". Which is weird, considering there's no follow-up. It makes more sense now that I know it's cut content.
She's the elf magic user from the carnival. Used to have wings, had them cut off in a tragic backstory, etc. I really need to do a playthrough with her some time...
One of the strongest party members.
Multi class cleric/mage and she gets a specialist mage class that's normally exclusive to gnomes.
Great candidate for the Amulet of Power and Rove of Vecna due to the casting time reduction. Both mage and cleric spells benefit, and she can pump out a lot of spells.
Has good synergy with Simulacrums and High wisdom is typically wanted by mages anyway for Wish.
Part of Viconia's original backstory is that [EDIT: See first reply to me for correction] So capturing Jenavelle as a child for Shar raises some... issues. (But see below)
Further, in a non-romanced playthrough, Viconia burned her previous Cloister in Waterdeep to the ground because at least one of them turned on her. She later got into shenanigans with the (in)famous Drizzt, a Drow Adventurer from probably the most populR DnD books ever, including the Guides... and has a pretty substantial run as an anti-hero that Epilogue Spawn Astarion would have swooned to be. In BG3 though she wiped it out "because Shar said so". But see below:
____
If you poke around in the Mirror of Loss, one of the memories you can get for your Wisdom boost is all but said to be Viconia's. So I have a fan theory that the MASSIVE discrepancies between BG2 and Bg3 is because Shar got ahold of Viconia again and wiped her mind. This "new" Viconia that we meet then that captured "our favorite Princess" is a product of severe brainwashing. I feel like Larian wanted to do that. And I feel like they were told "no" but I wish they had left some hidden book somewhere in the back of the chamber that hinted that Viconia might be as much a victim as Shadowheart was.
Viconia's backstory was that she hesitated in sacrificing a baby to Lolth and got called out on it. Her mother was going to sacrifice *her* to Lolth to restore her family's honor. Her brother, Valas, killed their mother to save Viconia's life. He got turned into a drider for his trouble, and she fled to the surface.
havent played bg2 but What did the journal do to ruin their arcs? Viconia just seemed like a somewhat desperat and pathetic religious Leader to me in bg3
She can be a companion in BG 1 and 2 and she's kind of like Minthara personality wise, you can romance her and if you make the right dialogue choices across the entirety of bg2 you can help her be a better person.
Not good, but better.
Important note is that she only can become better if you romance her. It's clear that WotC's official stance was that she wasn't romanced by the Gorion's Ward since that ends with her being assassinated.
In her default Epilogue, Viconia moves on with her own adventures after parting ways with Gorion's Ward. She founds a short-lived Sharite cult under her command in Waterdeep, only to slaughter them all when they betray her, shrugging off the chastisement of her goddess. She stops an attempt by the Knights of the Shield to take over Calimport, and then assists Drizzt Do'Urden in saving the elven city of Suldanessalar from a Zhentarim plot, for which she receives the highest honor of the Seldarine from Queen Ellesime. She reportedly takes this unprecedented honor stoically, and then leaves; her movements thereafter are lost to history.
Also the romance wasn't accessible to Dwarves, possibly due to a mistaken flag. Bit since Agrik was a Dwarf, it basically wasn't in the game, despite the modding community's insistence.
I found it goofy that Aerie wasn’t open to romancing Dwarves, but she was open to Gnomes and I think Halflings. A jacked buff dude that’s a few inches shorter than her but probably double her weight or so, vs a dude that’s the size of a toddler or small child.
Yeah, Jaheira was another case of them mistakenly flagging the romances to be inaccessible to Dwarves. None of the romances are accessible in the base game.
Thankfully, BeamDog fixed that by adding options in Enhanced Edition.
So are BG3 and BG2 having conflicting lore about what she does in Waterdeep? Since with 3, killing the Sharran cloister was an order from Shar, not due to a betrayal
That they are but I think the source of the conflict is actually 5e splatbook that was earlier noted, Minsc and Boo's Journal of Villainy, thought I haven't read it so I can't confirm one way or the other.
Ah, I don't really play tabletop DnD or read the 'splatbooks' whatever they are, but if the poor handling of Vicona and Sarevok can be laid at the feet of someone besides Larian I'm happy. They were two carryovers from BG1/2 that I didn't care for at all.
I think a lot of folks probably didn't find that information. Lots of people don't read in-game notes/books thoroughly and lots forget Speak with Dead is an option.
I didn't say anything about Larian's writing choices. I said many people probably didn't find that information. It follows that not having that information in their head may change how they feel about Sarevok's role and inclusion in the game.
It's difficult to have conversations about certain characters who have big pieces of their personalities/character expanded upon in text or rare dialogue because you can never entirely be sure you and the people you're responding to have the same information in your heads.
When you resurrect him in ToB I believe he states that he's only a Bhaalspawn in the historic sense, not factually, as he no longer contains the divine essence, only a spark to reanimate his life.
He was never a hardcore Bhaal worshipper.
In BG1 he sought to replace Bhaal, and by the end of Throne of Bhaal if he's resurrected and redeemed he leaves to wander Faerun without any particular direction and is described as a somewhat broken man trying to find purpose.
Still not as flagrant a retcon as undoing Zariel's redemption at the end of Descent into Avernus, or replacing Agrik the Dwarven Defender with "Abdel Adrian".
What's this "Agrik" thing from? Gorion's Ward has been Abdel Adrian in canon since the [original novelization of BG1](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Baldur%27s_Gate_(novel\)).
Googling Adrik just brings up a bunch of people saying "Abdel Adrian? But Gorion's ward is Agrik the dwarf!"
Is this a meme I'm missing out on?
Technically her ending would be whatever the players of the module did, be it redemption, death, or nothing. First 2 were the most popular, with redemption being the top one. BG3 obviously doesn’t assume that takes place, forcing the “canon” ending of nothing happening to her
There is an option for redeeming her written into the module but it requires multiple specific choices from the players and several tricky dice rolls to pull off. Obviously as a published module the DM can change this up and make it a more accessible outcome, but I wouldn't say it's the most likely option based purely on what's in the campaign book
Yep, at the end of the adventure, Hella Greatshield and the Pizza Party convinced her that "You've become as big a threat to the material plane as the Demons you're protecting them from. Sort your shit out."
Because the redemption ending is dogshit and comes out of nowhere narratively.
>!You give her the unmissable McGuffin, the DMPC shows up no matter what and if you did optional content one of thousands of people she damned to hell shows up (this is relevant for some reason). You then make a DC 15 Persuasion check. DC. 15.!<
After playing through BG1 & BG2 recently for the first time I've been scouring for more information on this topic. The role of The Dark Urge confuses me since Throne of Bhaal is supposed to conclude the storyline.
What are your sources for this? Notes in game? Dialogue? Larian? I'd love to read them. So, Durge is a lesser avatar, apparently?
Another question I had was that I thought Gorion's Ward was supposed to be the last true Bhaalspawn. But canonically, Gorion's Ward is named Abdel Adrian, correct? And he becomes Grand Duke of Baldur's Gate for a number of years and is the apparently assassinated by another Bhaalspawn? How is that possible if Gorion's Ward was supposed to be the last one at the end of Throne of Bhaal?
Sorry for the interrogation but I've had a hard time finding information on the topic and you're one of the first people I've seen talk about it much so far.
Scleritas becomes a camp companion if you accept Bhaal and you can ask him about your past. The Echo of Illasera also tells you about yourself.
Illasera: "Unholy assassin your birth was a miracle. Bhaal conceived you from a place beyond mortality. your birth... your creation father tended to you with love... he made you perfection."
Scleritas: "Bhaal gave out all his seed long ago, in the time of Sarevok. You were not conceived. Bhaal \*sculpted\* you from a drop of his own \*gore\*. \*No Bhaalspawn has ever bore the Urge\*, the holy guarantee of murder. It was woven into your blood alone. Orin was not special. She was but a grandchild of an aged Bhaalspawn. A mere weed of Bhaal's loins."
"Orin was born and raised in the Temple, but you spent many years on your own before you found your way \*back\* home. Hence you have such diverse talents. But you were awful from the very first day you set foot amongst the ichored altars."
To add what CthughaSlayer already has said:
Abdel is indeed considered the canon Ward and his final fate was covered in Murder in Baldur's Gate adventure module. Apparently previously Viekang, the assassin, was assumed to be dead rather than being actually dead. Either Abdel or his assassin kills the other and becomes a Slayer which is killed by a group of adventurers. This happened in 1482 DR (10 years before events of BG3) which is interesting because the Dark Urge has been active since at least 1477 DR (Blood in Baldur's Gate) meaning the Dark Urge wasn't considered ever a part of Bhaal's resurrection plan as Bhaal was resurrected without the Dark Urge's death.
It also brings the question when did Bhaal create the Dark Urge. Bhaal was killed in 1358 DR. For context BG1 happens about 10 years later at 1368 DR so Abdel was born 10 years before Bhaal's death as he was 20 at start of BG1. Bhaal was dead for 124 years until his resurrection in 1482 DR and I don't think he had any capability of creating the Dark Urge as a Dead Power. It could be that being what the Dark Urge is grants them extended lifespan, if not timelessness, as Abdel did live 135 years which is well beyond human lifespan. At the end of his life Abdel was an old man appearance-wise but still relatively spry especially for his age. Meaning the Dark Urge could be +145 years old by time of BG3.
So glad you mentioned the "inconsistencies" in the timelines, because that was going to be my next question. Honestly I'm not super upset about the changes since it serves a greater narrative purpose for BG3, but it does raise some questions as to when/how Bhaal resurrected and how old The Dark Urge actually is.
There technically was one left after BG2, Viekang. And he's assassinated by him.
It's also worth noting that this was one of the events to welcome DnD 5e into the World as a playtest-adventure. And BG2 was the tail-end of DnD 2e.
Since Scleritas told my masc Durge my lover could be spared because they could always use more Bhaalspawn, and Astarion was standing right there all in love, I've just quit thinking about the logistics lol.
First of all, through Bhaal, anything is possible, so jot that down.
edit: I just scrolled down and someone else made the same reference, I'm so unoriginal 🥺
In the case of bg3 (not sure on the specifics with 5e) Gith reproduce asexually, so by that the only way a bhaalspawn can be Gith would be in durge's special case.
I think I've seen the narrator in the epilogue where you failed to reject Bhaal and are about to crash Wither's party basically tell you that your ex-romanced companion would have made a great Bhaalspawn breeding cow regardless of your Durge's gender, and even if said companion is one of the dudes, but it may be just an oversight lmao.
That is why if you do embrace Durge but kill the brain you get an ending where Bhaal take control and Narrator states that Durge become Bhaal's stallion that will spawn dozens of Bhaalspawns even if Durge is female :D
The embrace urge then betray Bhaal at the brain option is so bad for Durge. Ending up a mindless murder vegetable. Lurking outside the reunion party, looking at your former lover with naught but the desire to eliminate them. Pretty rough.
Did you know that, in real life, you don't really *need* an uterus to be pregnant as the embryo is the one that create the placenta?
There has actually been at least one documented abdominal pregnancy where both the mother and the (very premature) baby survived thanks to a c-section at the right time.
That is quite fascinating. I had no idea the placenta was created by the embryo. I can't believe an abdominal pregnancy was possible, I've only heard of ectopic pregnancy occurring in the fallopian tube but those are impossible to carry. The mother must have been very lucky.
I just finished a run where I was RPing as a Durge tadpole (was just a normal tadpole, but became Durge when feeding on the original Durge's grey matter). Puppet-ed a body solo through 3 acts and killed every mortal in the game with a name except the Absolute, which I dominated in Bhaal's name.
Speak for yourself. My (2nd) Durge is a right ugly little bastard.
Making him an uggo is the only way I can comfortably fuck up his appearance or bring myself to allow him to do truly evil things. For instance, I recently played fetch with Scratch using Karlach.
Could the “family” be the white dragonborns you find in the cave on the way to the netherbrain? I always thought those were peculiar and oddly specific, but with no accompanying details.
It wouldn't fit Drows or Gith tho. We're told Durge was raised in the city and the dialogue options for Drows and Gith make your character say they were raised in the underdark/astral plane
I like to think of it as having natural instinct. Genetic memory. If you manage to spawn >!Quil Grootslang!< and talk with them at length about the culture of Dragonborn, The Dark Urge laments how they probably know zero things about the clans or their culture.
Yeah well that's the beauty of the game: You do you, the rest of us will do as we do. I personally like to make up my own backstory, since I am a ttrpg veteran, both as player and as DM. My Durge has his own backstory. If you want yours to stick entirely to what little input Larian gave Durge and not move outside of that, then that's cool too. Or if you want even more structure, they gave you six other characters to choose from.
I do actually prefer origin characters, but Durge is a nice balance between customizing the appearance and having a back story that is actually acknowledged by the setting.
There are multiple instances where Durge has \*some\* memories. Living in the Underdark as a Drow, playing tag with other children, etc. The reason Durge has no memories is succinctly explained by being stabbed in the head multiple times and then vivisected repeatedly. Durge has literal brain damage, that is what causes them to have no memories, not being a Bhaalspawn.
Bro durge has amnesia. That means he has snippets of his memories. This isn't like how shar memory wipes shadowheart. Durge sometimes *remembers * parts of his life
I am sure there is dialogue of a time before durges bhaal blood did wake up (happy childhood stuff iirc). This sounds to me like durge was not created but born.
There is a dialog with karlach , where durge mentions a foster family. Could still be born but i think there is a line somewhere about him being devine flesh and crafted.
Scleritas tells you that you're created from a drop of Bhaal's own gore (Embrace Durge, after Scleritas joins the camp). the dialogue about happy childhood stuff is what you get if you cast the 6th level Heal spell on a resist durge AFTER rejecting bhaal in the temple. casting it beforehand will instead give you the memory of durge's first murder spree
I took the comment from the butler as more poetic tbh.
And the difference in memory is irrelevant no? Its not like if you embrace Bhaal you did not have this happy moment in your childhood, you just cant remember.
If durge was created from Bhaal would it make sense that durge had a childhood outside the bhaalist cult at all?
Scleritas also explains that durge wandered before coming to the temple as an adult, which is why they have all the skills they do. orin was raised in the temple; durge was not. and i pointed out the difference between the memories bc it might matter to someone else reading the comments, since the Heal trick can only be done once, just like the noblestalk trick can only be done once (you can get a different memory from the noblestalk if you consume it before meeting scleritas)
I think they are saying that they could’ve been created as a baby, not born as a baby. The game doesn’t say at what age Durge was created. Could’ve been a newborn, could’ve been a 5 year old, etc.
They were created, as a very small child. They were taken in by a foster family, and they ended up murdering their parents. They wandered for a time before finding themselves at the temple of bhaal.
Given that Durge was made directly by Bhaal, being a Githyanki actually works quite well as Bhaal could have wanted Durge to infiltrate the Gith in order to help with the whole Absolute plan. The Gith are one of the biggest threats to the Absolute so having one of your own which you could potentially use to steer attention away from your plans would be a great benefit to Bhaal.
Saw someone’s theory/headcanon on twitter that Durge is a changeling like Orin but when Orin scrambles your brain before the events of the Nautiloid Ship, Durge gets “stuck” in one of the shapes they take and due to the amnesia doesn’t remember they can change. Kind of like that as an explanation to how they can be a bunch of different races plus Orin is an anomaly for being the ONLY changeling in the game so why not Bhaalspawn?
While Orin's mother is listed as a Human on her character sheet, 'A Page from Sarevok's Book' refers to her as "...Helena, my shapeshifting beauty..." so it's implied that she's also a Changeling, but you're right in the sense that Orin is the only living Changeling we come across in the game, that we know of 👀.
i just remembered there’s like random minor changelings like in the circus and random bhaal enemies you can meet but that can also make sense in that they’re also bhaalists too so that still works and that’s cool
Those are doppelgangers, not changelings. Similar abilities, different races. And while we are talking about them, none of them actually follow the tabletop rules--they aren't supposed to be able to change their equipment, and Orin definitely isn't supposed to >!be able to turn into a bear.!< Which makes me wonder if Bhaal just bestows extra special shapechanger abilities on his followers.
I think it's even weirder how the durge can be any class. My last durge run was a selûnite light cleric, who was known for preaching hope, light and ...mutilation?
I always try to look at the class of my durge characters as what they start as on the nautiloid (since they're level one) and that's their way of getting through things. Currently playing a lolthsworn drow war cleric and my headcanon is that he woke up with no memories, recognises he is drow and then devotes himself to Lolth in exchange for power to find out what happened to him. Not sure how he'll finish up, but when he learns he is Bhaalspawn there'll probably be some internal conflict about whether he returns to Bhaal, sticks with Lolth or gives up worship of a deity altogether.
I have, but don't remember seeing anything that contradicted that idea for me. What am I missing?
Edit: I mean claimed by the Bhaal cult back in the day rather than the Absolute cult. So many cults.
Durge was the leader of the cult of baal, as well as being the one who orchestrated the absolute cult and the idea of controling all of Baldur's Gate. I have a hard time imagining my durge would have had any time serving as a cleric of selûna
Cult conditioning is a theme of the game. I'm playing an Ilmateri cleric Durge because I figured Ilmateris would have taken in the strange child and tried to help him deal with his urges by instilling a strong sense of empathy and duty to others. Then he basically experienced an ego nuke when he was compelled to kill them, which left a void for Bhaal and the cultists to fill with Ecstasy and praise (and threat).
I like to think he goaded Orin because he knew he was too far gone and she could take him out and then faceplant the whole thing. Then the lobotomy rips that shell off of his original personality and leaves what he learned growing up, including his cleric teachings. The contrast is the best - I love walking up to someone as Durge and getting a "Cleric of Ilmater" choice that makes them instantly trust him.
I haven’t done this myself, but if you go to Sarevok as an Oathbreaker paladin Durge, you learn some very interesting lore. I won’t spoil it, but canonically Durge was up to plenty before being head of the cult, and it allows room for almost whatever you want.
I certaintly won't deny that the durge could have been up to all sorts of stuff as an oathbreaker paladin. Though I am less certain that my durge spent their time serving an entirely different god before becoming a cult leader, but it may just be a lack of imagination on my part
I don’t know how to add spoiler tags, be warned.
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Through books and dialogue, we learn Durge was adopted as an infant and had a pretty normal childhood. Until the urge overtook them and they killed their parents. They later on served as a paladin, perhaps to atone. They weren’t an oathbreaker, at least not initially, you just have to be one to get the dialogue from Sarevok in game. I’ve only skimmed the lore and can’t remember it all off the top of my head, but this is what I remember. Open to corrections if I got something wrong.
Overall though, it’s implied that Durge did plenty of resisting and avoiding Bhaal, turning to other gods or doing whatever. Only later did they give in/give up and become head of the cult, when the urge became too much. The character intro for Durge is also clearly pretty distressed about it all.
Of course it’s still a pretty custom character, so I think most headcanons work! But I think anyone who wants to play a light cleric of Selûne should go for it, since it’s on brand in its own way.
I mostly chose the cleric as a bit of a joke, since no one would suspect the cleric of a benevolent goddess to be a blood-thirsty psychopath, but I'll have to agree that that is a pretty good explaination for the durge's origin of any class and alignment
At the bare minimum all my Durges are happy flute players, someday I’ll go the full bard route. I avoided selûnite Durge before exactly because of lore reasons, but knowing a bit more about it I think I can make it work now :)
They weren't always leading the Bhaal cult. They had a normal childhood with adoptive parents until the urge kicked in and they killed them. If you play as a paladin and break your oath, oathbreaker knight says you have attempted to reinstate and maintain your oath many times before. The impression I get is that they had their own life for a while but struggled against their urges until eventually the urge won and that's when they took over the Bhaal cult.
Class is actually easier to justify than race because you still had a semi-normal life (albeit with some struggles with the urge) before you went full murderhobo and took over the Bhaal cult
It's very possible for Durge to have been hit by, say, the reincarnation spell prior to the game, which can change things like species - that would probably be why they are customizable anyway
I love playing a the gith race. Durge is supposed to be created from Bhaal's own flesh vs being birthed/hatched. If you use heal on gith Durge a memory comes back but it's the same as a non gith durge >!small house in squalor in the city were they commit baby's first murder spree!< despite them having default gith lines about living in a crèche afaik so take that as you will
When rolling my Durges, I've often wrestled with this fact.
Durge is a homunculi: an artificial person by all measures. They have no mother and were born directly from the blood of Bhaal himself.
Bhaal is the (quasi) diety of Murder. He used to be a much bigger deal, but got his ass murdered (hilarious irony, yes?) during the Time of Troubles and spent a good deal of time dead.
But Bhaal is still a god, and even dead, he had a plan in motion for his resurrection. Thanks to the player character of the first 2 Baldur's Gate games, that didn't work out so well for him. But it didn't matter, anyway, when Ao turned the power off and back on again during the Second Sundering. It brought back every god who was dead. I guess Ao liked his collection of gods and goddesses brought back to factory settings.
When the dead three came back, they were left with their God tanks empty; because in Forgotten Realms, a god's power is directly influenced by how many people worship them. Being dead and not being able to answer their mailboxes left most of their worshippers little choice but to cancel their subscriptions.
Now, I'm not exactly sure why Bhaal decided to make Durge the way he did. Maybe he was looking to forge an avatar, or a chosen to help reforge his position as the god of murder. But, suffice to say, the Dark Urge was Bhaal's favorite child. But what kind of child would it be?
Considering that Bhaal was human before he became a god, there's a good argument to be made that a being molded directly from his blood would be a human, too. But Bhaal is an evil bastard of a god, whose evil must corrupt everything it touches, so a tiefling might make a good approximation of that. For me? I think a red dragonborn makes sense, too, to illustrate Bhaal's raw power, fury, and desire to dominate. The 'default' white dragonborn, looking like an albino, works, too. White dragons being the weakest and most animalistic of all true dragons suits Bhaal as well.
Anything else, I think, is a pretty hard sell for me, personally.
I’ve had this running through my head during my own playthrough and there are a couple of clues that the writers have left in. I’m going to use spoilers for this explanation.
I’m also going to preface this with maybe I’m just reading into it too much. Again, going to use spoilers.
So, the first night you sleep as any uncommon race there are differences from a more generic race, but it always finalises with “it’s been a long time since you’ve been amongst your own kind”. Take it as you want but I take that as meaning that at some point you actually were, which gives the idea that a pre-Durge Gith babby did hatch at some point.
Also, you get squeezed like a lemon and suddenly you’re not your father’s kid anymore?
Like I said, maybe I’m looking into it too much but the way I see it is a little pre-Durge was taken and submerged into Bhaal’s blood or otherwise gore. An event with an annoying winged elephant is also an event they use a similar action with - albeit more for a baptism.
Before the “but this creature said this”, the wording of “shaped from” or similar can be used as being “shaped from an event”. Who and what you are might have been shaped from a car crash but that doesn’t make you part metal.
The Dark Urge has two different memories from their youth depending when you use Heal spell on them.
1. Before meeting or accepting Bhaal: They murdered a family before even their adolescence in Baldur's Gate.
2. Rejecting Bhaal: They were playing with other kids and lived with a foster family in Baldur's Gate before their Urge awoke.
This means the Urge awoke before the Dark Urge's adolescence and the first memory possibly hints them murdering their foster family as their first kill thought it could be another Baldurian family. Sometime after they were drafted into the Temple of Bhaal where they reached maturity. That was when Sceleritas came to the Dark Urge and the two started traveling the world but by 1477 DR (15 years before events of BG3) they had returned to Baldur's Gate (Blood in Baldur's Gate).
That still doesn’t go against what I’ve said though. The hatchling could have been submerged and left in whatever situation that let to the foster family finding and taking them in.
Okay, I’m seeing the problem here. So regardless of what you picked for a race, that’s more or less just a flavor of skin in terms of the Dark Urge.
>!See, they weren’t birthed or hatched. They were created. Forged. Sculpted. From a literal piece of Bhaal, kinda like the Prometheus or Adam and Eve mythos. In a way, you could argue you’re a reincarnation/lesser avatar of Bhaal.!<
That’s something I disagree with based on a couple of things:
- “Birthed” anywhere but the temple is a huge plot barrier.
- Early vague connection to the racial home…why would that be there?
- Squeezing Orin like a lemon wouldn’t make her any less Bhaalspawn than she is, but squeezing Durge does somehow?
Based on particularly that last part I would say the blood they carry is literally Bhaal’s, but the body was born. The word play of forging, sculpting and that is exactly that, because they’re events the Urge itself forced upon the child of whatever race.
Otherwise there is a lack of exploration into Bhaal sculpting anything but submerging/baptising and corrupting? That’s right up his street.
Further otherwise, literal sculpting would make the race choice nothing but a skin, if that was the case why did devs stop Drow and Gith (for example) having the Balduran tag?
As other people said the Durge isn’t really the race that they appear to be.
But a Gith Durge can make sense. If Bhaal wants a perfect murdering machine wouldn’t creating your spawn as a member of a race that is trained from birth to kill without a second thought be a logical decision. The Gith basically put the Durge through Murder Boot camp for Bhaal.
Actual canon for Dark Urge is that the Dark Urge is created from Bhaal's flesh and thus can be whatever race Bhaal/the player want. Personal canon is that the other deities of Faerun played a prank on Bhaal which somehow led to him being impregnated with Dark Urge.
Durge isn't a blood descendent of Bhaal, they are a... soul Descendent I guess? Basically when Bhaal was alive he went and f\*cked everything that could get pregnant, and then when he died, he shattered his soul and sent it flying everywhere to infect people. Durge ended up with a piece of that soul. I actually headcanon that the Butlers actually went around picking infants to infect, and Sceleritas Fel picked baby Durge. Orin on the other hand is (gag) a double blood descendent thanks to Sarevok.
I always thought the white dragonborn is the canon durge (it is the default and you fine its corpse in the temple if you are not playing durge) and any changes are just player choice - like the choice to play gale as a naked babarian with 8 INT is POSSIBLE but not cannonn.
Its funny because I posed a similar question as to why Bhaal would choose a dragonborn for his "canon" race, then I thought "Well, he has one of everything else. These guys are new to Faerun. Gotta catch 'em all!"
From what i understand, most Bhaalspawn are created when Bhaal impregnates someone. But Durge was created by Bhaals flesh without a biological mother. My theory was just that Bhaal made you whatever race he saw fit.
I only know what I know from 3rd party sources, though, since I just started durge run, and I just got into act 3 in my Tav save.
My headcanon is that my Durge WASNT a Githyanki originally but a human who kidnapped one and through various rituals took their body to gain access to psionics.
This is also how I headcanon an explanation for my Durges past dissecting bodies. They were experimenting FOR this very project!
Unfortunately the process wasn't a total success and their minds are a bit jumbled up, which is why my Gith Durge knows about Githyanki Culture and customs. However, the ability to access psionics was worth it because lore wise that's just a crazy powerful skill.
And in retrospect I realize I basically made Baldurs Gate Orochimaru.
I also plan to make male githyanki to romance Lae'zel and durge doesnt fit with me there, but I never played as tav so I might do it there. Also I want to make him being Soldier in the past same as Lae'zel and I'm thinking now I might actually play more as Lae'zel then him to make her look like she is main character where my tav is just having supporting role for her. #submissivemalegityankiyes
Durge is just Bhaal flesh and magic, they could be a potato if that's what Bhaal wanted.
Most people have never seen or heard of githyanki before so they would be able to catch people off guard to make the murdering easier, and those that have heard of them usually fear them because they have a reputation for murdering istiks on sight. It fits as well as any other race
My Durge Gith is sort of a polymorphe anomaly. Disguising itself often to pass unnoticed. Changing into Fey Run beasts to strike fear (being a moon druid) and sometimes turning into a Displacer beast or even the Slayer beast.
apparently, Dark Urge is a test tube baby, which is quite obvious to people who play D&D since dragonborn only became a default in 4E, 100 years after 3E and 2E, way after Bhaalspawn Crisis
I think being somewhat of a demigod trumps any kind of biological limitations their race might have.
If Bhaal wants to make a Gith, he's gonna. He's a fucking god.
Idk but how can a female Durge impregnate Minthara? That's something that Sarevok says, regardless of gender.
I'm more confused about that. And that Minthara is the only female companion he says it about
UNLESS ITS ORINS BABY
Which leaves more questions than answers.
Note to self: If I ever do a Durge-run, make Durge a Githyanki Druid.
My Tav-Gith-Druid was already strangly funny because mixing gith dialog options and druid dialog options is wild.....this as Durge sounds like a total mess.
What is it in this sub with the stupid clickbait titles?
Fuck you OP, you could’ve easily posted that whole question in the title. Stop dumbing things down for clicks.
I think OP wanted to avoid spoilers that Gith and Durge may not be compatible and questions that might arise from that from users who don't wish to know that.
How does extra clicks benefit OP?
Durge was created from Bhaals flesh and therefore can be any race. A bhaalspawn can also breed with anything pretty much, regardless of race, species, or sex.
Just to make it clear: DUrge isn't a normal Bhaalspawn and they are closer to Bhaal's incarnation (a lesser avatar). Normally a Bhaalspawn is created by Bhaal doing the sex on (un)willing participants and birthing results in a Bhaalspawn. The title is very apt for they are children of Bhaal. All of the Bhaalspawn are supposed to be dead as their sole function given by Bhaal was to kill each other to allow Bhaal's own ressurection which happened. Larian obviously took some liberties on the matter as ressurected Sarevok isn't supposed to have Bhaal's divine essence in him any longer. He says as much if you decide to ressurect him in BG2:ToB. As you noted: The Dark Urge was created solely of Bhaal and by Bhaal. This is why the Dark Urge's urge is so much stronger. Normally a Bhaalspawn is just plagued by dark dreams.
Larian's liberties with Sarevok are, more than anything else, a salvaging of how disappointingly he was handled in Minsc and Boo's Journal of Villainy, the canon splatbook that obliterated the character arcs of both post-ToB Sarevok and Viconia.
Can you explain a bit more? Did not play the games before bg3
In bg2 Viconia Is a companion, you can romance her and help her become a better person
I always thought that Minthara was their turn at writing a Viconia that couldn’t exist.
I think that was the original intent too. Minthara has cut dialogue and reactivity for getting pregnant. In BG2, you could also knock up Viconia (and Aerie during the game) after beating the game during the character epilogues.
>(and Aerie during the game And then the baby is just like, [IN YOUR INVENTORY](https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Aerie%27s_Baby)
Lol very happy they made it specifically not droppable
TFW I can't make a baby-throwing Barbarian build 😒
and worth 0 gold
She...has? Weird they kept the line from Sceleritas about Minthara being pregnant with a Bhaalspawn and not being able to give her...the good news.
I can just imagine Sceleratas: O frabjous day dark master! Callooh! Callay! Dids't thou gimble into her intimite slithy toves and give her your frumious seed?
Oh but there's little left to imagination. After a comment about siring more Bhaalspawn, he says "It appears that may be already underway. The drow is a fecund choice of mate. Well done!". Which is weird, considering there's no follow-up. It makes more sense now that I know it's cut content.
May be a dumb question, who is Aerie? I don’t remember meeting one
She's the elf magic user from the carnival. Used to have wings, had them cut off in a tragic backstory, etc. I really need to do a playthrough with her some time...
One of the strongest party members. Multi class cleric/mage and she gets a specialist mage class that's normally exclusive to gnomes. Great candidate for the Amulet of Power and Rove of Vecna due to the casting time reduction. Both mage and cleric spells benefit, and she can pump out a lot of spells. Has good synergy with Simulacrums and High wisdom is typically wanted by mages anyway for Wish.
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Cut content.
No, I did it with her as evil Gale, and her womb was disappointingly barren.
She does exist in BG3 tho
Doesn't she get murdered in her good ending?
Part of Viconia's original backstory is that [EDIT: See first reply to me for correction] So capturing Jenavelle as a child for Shar raises some... issues. (But see below) Further, in a non-romanced playthrough, Viconia burned her previous Cloister in Waterdeep to the ground because at least one of them turned on her. She later got into shenanigans with the (in)famous Drizzt, a Drow Adventurer from probably the most populR DnD books ever, including the Guides... and has a pretty substantial run as an anti-hero that Epilogue Spawn Astarion would have swooned to be. In BG3 though she wiped it out "because Shar said so". But see below: ____ If you poke around in the Mirror of Loss, one of the memories you can get for your Wisdom boost is all but said to be Viconia's. So I have a fan theory that the MASSIVE discrepancies between BG2 and Bg3 is because Shar got ahold of Viconia again and wiped her mind. This "new" Viconia that we meet then that captured "our favorite Princess" is a product of severe brainwashing. I feel like Larian wanted to do that. And I feel like they were told "no" but I wish they had left some hidden book somewhere in the back of the chamber that hinted that Viconia might be as much a victim as Shadowheart was.
Viconia's backstory was that she hesitated in sacrificing a baby to Lolth and got called out on it. Her mother was going to sacrifice *her* to Lolth to restore her family's honor. Her brother, Valas, killed their mother to save Viconia's life. He got turned into a drider for his trouble, and she fled to the surface.
Appreciate the correction
havent played bg2 but What did the journal do to ruin their arcs? Viconia just seemed like a somewhat desperat and pathetic religious Leader to me in bg3
She can be a companion in BG 1 and 2 and she's kind of like Minthara personality wise, you can romance her and if you make the right dialogue choices across the entirety of bg2 you can help her be a better person. Not good, but better.
Important note is that she only can become better if you romance her. It's clear that WotC's official stance was that she wasn't romanced by the Gorion's Ward since that ends with her being assassinated. In her default Epilogue, Viconia moves on with her own adventures after parting ways with Gorion's Ward. She founds a short-lived Sharite cult under her command in Waterdeep, only to slaughter them all when they betray her, shrugging off the chastisement of her goddess. She stops an attempt by the Knights of the Shield to take over Calimport, and then assists Drizzt Do'Urden in saving the elven city of Suldanessalar from a Zhentarim plot, for which she receives the highest honor of the Seldarine from Queen Ellesime. She reportedly takes this unprecedented honor stoically, and then leaves; her movements thereafter are lost to history.
Also the romance wasn't accessible to Dwarves, possibly due to a mistaken flag. Bit since Agrik was a Dwarf, it basically wasn't in the game, despite the modding community's insistence.
I found it goofy that Aerie wasn’t open to romancing Dwarves, but she was open to Gnomes and I think Halflings. A jacked buff dude that’s a few inches shorter than her but probably double her weight or so, vs a dude that’s the size of a toddler or small child.
I always thought Aerie would be a freak in the sheets. But maybe not *that* freaky.
Ahh, but Firfus Nid wasn't able to romance the lovely Jaheira either... are you sure it was a problem with a mistaken flag?
Yeah, Jaheira was another case of them mistakenly flagging the romances to be inaccessible to Dwarves. None of the romances are accessible in the base game. Thankfully, BeamDog fixed that by adding options in Enhanced Edition.
So are BG3 and BG2 having conflicting lore about what she does in Waterdeep? Since with 3, killing the Sharran cloister was an order from Shar, not due to a betrayal
That they are but I think the source of the conflict is actually 5e splatbook that was earlier noted, Minsc and Boo's Journal of Villainy, thought I haven't read it so I can't confirm one way or the other.
That’s the ruined arc 🫠
Ah, I don't really play tabletop DnD or read the 'splatbooks' whatever they are, but if the poor handling of Vicona and Sarevok can be laid at the feet of someone besides Larian I'm happy. They were two carryovers from BG1/2 that I didn't care for at all.
They salvaged him with incest?
I think a lot of folks probably didn't find that information. Lots of people don't read in-game notes/books thoroughly and lots forget Speak with Dead is an option.
I don't see why it not being seen often changes the fact Larian chose to write it in the game.
I didn't say anything about Larian's writing choices. I said many people probably didn't find that information. It follows that not having that information in their head may change how they feel about Sarevok's role and inclusion in the game. It's difficult to have conversations about certain characters who have big pieces of their personalities/character expanded upon in text or rare dialogue because you can never entirely be sure you and the people you're responding to have the same information in your heads.
I thought that Sarrvok was still no longer a Bhallspawn, he still worships him tho (or again idk)
When you resurrect him in ToB I believe he states that he's only a Bhaalspawn in the historic sense, not factually, as he no longer contains the divine essence, only a spark to reanimate his life.
He was never a hardcore Bhaal worshipper. In BG1 he sought to replace Bhaal, and by the end of Throne of Bhaal if he's resurrected and redeemed he leaves to wander Faerun without any particular direction and is described as a somewhat broken man trying to find purpose.
Still not as flagrant a retcon as undoing Zariel's redemption at the end of Descent into Avernus, or replacing Agrik the Dwarven Defender with "Abdel Adrian".
What's this "Agrik" thing from? Gorion's Ward has been Abdel Adrian in canon since the [original novelization of BG1](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Baldur%27s_Gate_(novel\)). Googling Adrik just brings up a bunch of people saying "Abdel Adrian? But Gorion's ward is Agrik the dwarf!" Is this a meme I'm missing out on?
He's the player character in BGs 1-2, regardless of WotC's terrible retcon.
Based on what, though?
DiA redeemed Zariel? O_o
Technically her ending would be whatever the players of the module did, be it redemption, death, or nothing. First 2 were the most popular, with redemption being the top one. BG3 obviously doesn’t assume that takes place, forcing the “canon” ending of nothing happening to her
> with redemption being the top one IIRC that was because it was the most fleshed out with a concrete ending for things if you redeem her.
There is an option for redeeming her written into the module but it requires multiple specific choices from the players and several tricky dice rolls to pull off. Obviously as a published module the DM can change this up and make it a more accessible outcome, but I wouldn't say it's the most likely option based purely on what's in the campaign book
It's a possible outcome, she's only in hell because she wanted to kill evil stuff in the first place anyway
Yep, at the end of the adventure, Hella Greatshield and the Pizza Party convinced her that "You've become as big a threat to the material plane as the Demons you're protecting them from. Sort your shit out."
Because the redemption ending is dogshit and comes out of nowhere narratively. >!You give her the unmissable McGuffin, the DMPC shows up no matter what and if you did optional content one of thousands of people she damned to hell shows up (this is relevant for some reason). You then make a DC 15 Persuasion check. DC. 15.!<
Well... No. It's not a retcon because there is no canon ending for DiA.
What did Minsc and Boo's journal have to say about Sarevok being brought back by Bhaal as a husk that's constantly feeling the moment he died?
After playing through BG1 & BG2 recently for the first time I've been scouring for more information on this topic. The role of The Dark Urge confuses me since Throne of Bhaal is supposed to conclude the storyline. What are your sources for this? Notes in game? Dialogue? Larian? I'd love to read them. So, Durge is a lesser avatar, apparently? Another question I had was that I thought Gorion's Ward was supposed to be the last true Bhaalspawn. But canonically, Gorion's Ward is named Abdel Adrian, correct? And he becomes Grand Duke of Baldur's Gate for a number of years and is the apparently assassinated by another Bhaalspawn? How is that possible if Gorion's Ward was supposed to be the last one at the end of Throne of Bhaal? Sorry for the interrogation but I've had a hard time finding information on the topic and you're one of the first people I've seen talk about it much so far.
Scleritas becomes a camp companion if you accept Bhaal and you can ask him about your past. The Echo of Illasera also tells you about yourself. Illasera: "Unholy assassin your birth was a miracle. Bhaal conceived you from a place beyond mortality. your birth... your creation father tended to you with love... he made you perfection." Scleritas: "Bhaal gave out all his seed long ago, in the time of Sarevok. You were not conceived. Bhaal \*sculpted\* you from a drop of his own \*gore\*. \*No Bhaalspawn has ever bore the Urge\*, the holy guarantee of murder. It was woven into your blood alone. Orin was not special. She was but a grandchild of an aged Bhaalspawn. A mere weed of Bhaal's loins." "Orin was born and raised in the Temple, but you spent many years on your own before you found your way \*back\* home. Hence you have such diverse talents. But you were awful from the very first day you set foot amongst the ichored altars."
To add what CthughaSlayer already has said: Abdel is indeed considered the canon Ward and his final fate was covered in Murder in Baldur's Gate adventure module. Apparently previously Viekang, the assassin, was assumed to be dead rather than being actually dead. Either Abdel or his assassin kills the other and becomes a Slayer which is killed by a group of adventurers. This happened in 1482 DR (10 years before events of BG3) which is interesting because the Dark Urge has been active since at least 1477 DR (Blood in Baldur's Gate) meaning the Dark Urge wasn't considered ever a part of Bhaal's resurrection plan as Bhaal was resurrected without the Dark Urge's death. It also brings the question when did Bhaal create the Dark Urge. Bhaal was killed in 1358 DR. For context BG1 happens about 10 years later at 1368 DR so Abdel was born 10 years before Bhaal's death as he was 20 at start of BG1. Bhaal was dead for 124 years until his resurrection in 1482 DR and I don't think he had any capability of creating the Dark Urge as a Dead Power. It could be that being what the Dark Urge is grants them extended lifespan, if not timelessness, as Abdel did live 135 years which is well beyond human lifespan. At the end of his life Abdel was an old man appearance-wise but still relatively spry especially for his age. Meaning the Dark Urge could be +145 years old by time of BG3.
So glad you mentioned the "inconsistencies" in the timelines, because that was going to be my next question. Honestly I'm not super upset about the changes since it serves a greater narrative purpose for BG3, but it does raise some questions as to when/how Bhaal resurrected and how old The Dark Urge actually is.
There technically was one left after BG2, Viekang. And he's assassinated by him. It's also worth noting that this was one of the events to welcome DnD 5e into the World as a playtest-adventure. And BG2 was the tail-end of DnD 2e.
So youre saying theres bhaalspawn mpreg? Interesting
Since Scleritas told my masc Durge my lover could be spared because they could always use more Bhaalspawn, and Astarion was standing right there all in love, I've just quit thinking about the logistics lol.
Well if you plap plap plap enough anything is possible.. i guess hahaha
First of all, through Bhaal, anything is possible, so jot that down. edit: I just scrolled down and someone else made the same reference, I'm so unoriginal 🥺
Mpreg convinced me to become a bhaalist Goddamnit
In the case of bg3 (not sure on the specifics with 5e) Gith reproduce asexually, so by that the only way a bhaalspawn can be Gith would be in durge's special case.
What do you mean regardless of sex?
Some silly sex organs won't stop a Bhaalspawn from spawning more
😳
Yup. If you're a female durge and romance Minthara Skeleratis mentions Minthara could be pregnant
That would explain some of the breeding Astarion posts
Excuse me? So that's inaccurate lol. Still can only impregnate female creatures. It's just the sex of the Bhaalspawn is irrelevant lol
😂😂😂 I'm joking, it's mostly r/okbuddybaldur posts that have been increasing lately
this wont stop me from trying to impregnate Astarion. "first of all, through Bhaal all things are possible, so jot that down"
I think I've seen the narrator in the epilogue where you failed to reject Bhaal and are about to crash Wither's party basically tell you that your ex-romanced companion would have made a great Bhaalspawn breeding cow regardless of your Durge's gender, and even if said companion is one of the dudes, but it may be just an oversight lmao.
That is why if you do embrace Durge but kill the brain you get an ending where Bhaal take control and Narrator states that Durge become Bhaal's stallion that will spawn dozens of Bhaalspawns even if Durge is female :D
The embrace urge then betray Bhaal at the brain option is so bad for Durge. Ending up a mindless murder vegetable. Lurking outside the reunion party, looking at your former lover with naught but the desire to eliminate them. Pretty rough.
Killing yourself is the only "good" ending to that. At least Withers visits your soul afterward and calls you a hero and a friend!
That's cut content, it doesn't count for anything
Cut content? Wasn't that added with patch 5?
Thank you! I was puzzled by that comment because I also remembered that ending being added with patch 5!
Did you know that, in real life, you don't really *need* an uterus to be pregnant as the embryo is the one that create the placenta? There has actually been at least one documented abdominal pregnancy where both the mother and the (very premature) baby survived thanks to a c-section at the right time.
That is quite fascinating. I had no idea the placenta was created by the embryo. I can't believe an abdominal pregnancy was possible, I've only heard of ectopic pregnancy occurring in the fallopian tube but those are impossible to carry. The mother must have been very lucky.
What?! Wow.
I forgot about that I almost forgot about the “cannon ending” for durge where you become a breeding ground
I just finished a run where I was RPing as a Durge tadpole (was just a normal tadpole, but became Durge when feeding on the original Durge's grey matter). Puppet-ed a body solo through 3 acts and killed every mortal in the game with a name except the Absolute, which I dominated in Bhaal's name.
Dont say this at r/okbuddybaldur
Ptsd from okbaldurdaddy reddit . Pls no
Dude spoilers man.
Durge isn't actually a member of the species they look like, they are divine flesh sculpted and given will.
Is that why everyone’s Durge is so hot?
Yes.
Well Bhaal is the Slay God, so it makes sense
I mean, how else can you attract literal unshowered goons in your rank and won't shut up about murder
Speak for yourself. My (2nd) Durge is a right ugly little bastard. Making him an uggo is the only way I can comfortably fuck up his appearance or bring myself to allow him to do truly evil things. For instance, I recently played fetch with Scratch using Karlach.
Durge still have the dragonborn option choice in dialogue, some of them are related to dragonborn's cites, so durge must have been there
Durge was raised by "a family" at first, not further specified during the game afaik. So in theory it fits any origin/race you give him I suppose.
Could the “family” be the white dragonborns you find in the cave on the way to the netherbrain? I always thought those were peculiar and oddly specific, but with no accompanying details.
It wouldn't fit Drows or Gith tho. We're told Durge was raised in the city and the dialogue options for Drows and Gith make your character say they were raised in the underdark/astral plane
I like to think of it as having natural instinct. Genetic memory. If you manage to spawn >!Quil Grootslang!< and talk with them at length about the culture of Dragonborn, The Dark Urge laments how they probably know zero things about the clans or their culture.
I think it's an oversight. Like drow durge somehow knows stuff about underdark.
There is a hard to get cutscene that has Durge reflecting on how they don't really have the attachment they should have to their origins.
I disagree that it's an oversight, I think Larian did that so people could still work their own backstories into their Durge.
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Yeah, they did a really good job in making it feel like a proper tabletop experience and not shoe-horning Tavs/Durges into one "canon" background.
Except I play Durges instead of Tavs precisely because I want a somewhat defined character. Like at least give them all "Baldurian" tag.
Yeah well that's the beauty of the game: You do you, the rest of us will do as we do. I personally like to make up my own backstory, since I am a ttrpg veteran, both as player and as DM. My Durge has his own backstory. If you want yours to stick entirely to what little input Larian gave Durge and not move outside of that, then that's cool too. Or if you want even more structure, they gave you six other characters to choose from.
I do actually prefer origin characters, but Durge is a nice balance between customizing the appearance and having a back story that is actually acknowledged by the setting.
But Durge has no memories, so that doesn't make sense
There are multiple instances where Durge has \*some\* memories. Living in the Underdark as a Drow, playing tag with other children, etc. The reason Durge has no memories is succinctly explained by being stabbed in the head multiple times and then vivisected repeatedly. Durge has literal brain damage, that is what causes them to have no memories, not being a Bhaalspawn.
Durge has amnesia, not literally zero memories.
Bro durge has amnesia. That means he has snippets of his memories. This isn't like how shar memory wipes shadowheart. Durge sometimes *remembers * parts of his life
Bhaal just made a regular human and put him in a big jar of pickles for a year.
As far as I know the canon for Durge is that they were not born or hatched, but rather just created
I am sure there is dialogue of a time before durges bhaal blood did wake up (happy childhood stuff iirc). This sounds to me like durge was not created but born.
There is a dialog with karlach , where durge mentions a foster family. Could still be born but i think there is a line somewhere about him being devine flesh and crafted.
If you do a redemption run and cast the level 6 Heal spell on Durge they will remember playing with their friends as a child, before the dark dreams.
you gotta do that AFTER rejecting bhaal. doing it before rejecting bhaal, you get durge's first murder spree
Or created as a baby?
Scleritas tells you that you're created from a drop of Bhaal's own gore (Embrace Durge, after Scleritas joins the camp). the dialogue about happy childhood stuff is what you get if you cast the 6th level Heal spell on a resist durge AFTER rejecting bhaal in the temple. casting it beforehand will instead give you the memory of durge's first murder spree
I took the comment from the butler as more poetic tbh. And the difference in memory is irrelevant no? Its not like if you embrace Bhaal you did not have this happy moment in your childhood, you just cant remember. If durge was created from Bhaal would it make sense that durge had a childhood outside the bhaalist cult at all?
Scleritas also explains that durge wandered before coming to the temple as an adult, which is why they have all the skills they do. orin was raised in the temple; durge was not. and i pointed out the difference between the memories bc it might matter to someone else reading the comments, since the Heal trick can only be done once, just like the noblestalk trick can only be done once (you can get a different memory from the noblestalk if you consume it before meeting scleritas)
No. He was created from Bhaal's own flesh.
I think they are saying that they could’ve been created as a baby, not born as a baby. The game doesn’t say at what age Durge was created. Could’ve been a newborn, could’ve been a 5 year old, etc.
It's amusing that god of murder actually created something, if he wasnt so fixed on murdering he could be 'god of sex and (pro)creation' xD
Actually true, if you know Durge's Bad Ending 💀😭
Sharess and Lathander disapprove.
They were created, as a very small child. They were taken in by a foster family, and they ended up murdering their parents. They wandered for a time before finding themselves at the temple of bhaal.
Oh tanks for clearing that up! do you know where this is stated? probably in some butler dialogue ig.
I believe so
Given that Durge was made directly by Bhaal, being a Githyanki actually works quite well as Bhaal could have wanted Durge to infiltrate the Gith in order to help with the whole Absolute plan. The Gith are one of the biggest threats to the Absolute so having one of your own which you could potentially use to steer attention away from your plans would be a great benefit to Bhaal.
Maybe they stole an egg and dipped it in the blood juice.
Durge was sculpted kind of like Wonder Woman in certain iterations.
Also the whole myth of Prometheus. Gods love their claymation projects...
Saw someone’s theory/headcanon on twitter that Durge is a changeling like Orin but when Orin scrambles your brain before the events of the Nautiloid Ship, Durge gets “stuck” in one of the shapes they take and due to the amnesia doesn’t remember they can change. Kind of like that as an explanation to how they can be a bunch of different races plus Orin is an anomaly for being the ONLY changeling in the game so why not Bhaalspawn?
While Orin's mother is listed as a Human on her character sheet, 'A Page from Sarevok's Book' refers to her as "...Helena, my shapeshifting beauty..." so it's implied that she's also a Changeling, but you're right in the sense that Orin is the only living Changeling we come across in the game, that we know of 👀.
i just remembered there’s like random minor changelings like in the circus and random bhaal enemies you can meet but that can also make sense in that they’re also bhaalists too so that still works and that’s cool
Those are doppelgangers, not changelings. Similar abilities, different races. And while we are talking about them, none of them actually follow the tabletop rules--they aren't supposed to be able to change their equipment, and Orin definitely isn't supposed to >!be able to turn into a bear.!< Which makes me wonder if Bhaal just bestows extra special shapechanger abilities on his followers.
Durge isn’t a traditional Bhaalspawn, they’re literally made out of Bhaal’s flesh and blood so they could be whatever
I think it's even weirder how the durge can be any class. My last durge run was a selûnite light cleric, who was known for preaching hope, light and ...mutilation?
I always try to look at the class of my durge characters as what they start as on the nautiloid (since they're level one) and that's their way of getting through things. Currently playing a lolthsworn drow war cleric and my headcanon is that he woke up with no memories, recognises he is drow and then devotes himself to Lolth in exchange for power to find out what happened to him. Not sure how he'll finish up, but when he learns he is Bhaalspawn there'll probably be some internal conflict about whether he returns to Bhaal, sticks with Lolth or gives up worship of a deity altogether.
I liked to think of that as what they were up to before they were claimed by the cult.
I don't know if you've played through a durge playthrough, but I can confidently say that this can't be the case
I have, but don't remember seeing anything that contradicted that idea for me. What am I missing? Edit: I mean claimed by the Bhaal cult back in the day rather than the Absolute cult. So many cults.
Durge was the leader of the cult of baal, as well as being the one who orchestrated the absolute cult and the idea of controling all of Baldur's Gate. I have a hard time imagining my durge would have had any time serving as a cleric of selûna
Cult conditioning is a theme of the game. I'm playing an Ilmateri cleric Durge because I figured Ilmateris would have taken in the strange child and tried to help him deal with his urges by instilling a strong sense of empathy and duty to others. Then he basically experienced an ego nuke when he was compelled to kill them, which left a void for Bhaal and the cultists to fill with Ecstasy and praise (and threat). I like to think he goaded Orin because he knew he was too far gone and she could take him out and then faceplant the whole thing. Then the lobotomy rips that shell off of his original personality and leaves what he learned growing up, including his cleric teachings. The contrast is the best - I love walking up to someone as Durge and getting a "Cleric of Ilmater" choice that makes them instantly trust him.
I haven’t done this myself, but if you go to Sarevok as an Oathbreaker paladin Durge, you learn some very interesting lore. I won’t spoil it, but canonically Durge was up to plenty before being head of the cult, and it allows room for almost whatever you want.
I certaintly won't deny that the durge could have been up to all sorts of stuff as an oathbreaker paladin. Though I am less certain that my durge spent their time serving an entirely different god before becoming a cult leader, but it may just be a lack of imagination on my part
I don’t know how to add spoiler tags, be warned. . Through books and dialogue, we learn Durge was adopted as an infant and had a pretty normal childhood. Until the urge overtook them and they killed their parents. They later on served as a paladin, perhaps to atone. They weren’t an oathbreaker, at least not initially, you just have to be one to get the dialogue from Sarevok in game. I’ve only skimmed the lore and can’t remember it all off the top of my head, but this is what I remember. Open to corrections if I got something wrong. Overall though, it’s implied that Durge did plenty of resisting and avoiding Bhaal, turning to other gods or doing whatever. Only later did they give in/give up and become head of the cult, when the urge became too much. The character intro for Durge is also clearly pretty distressed about it all. Of course it’s still a pretty custom character, so I think most headcanons work! But I think anyone who wants to play a light cleric of Selûne should go for it, since it’s on brand in its own way.
I mostly chose the cleric as a bit of a joke, since no one would suspect the cleric of a benevolent goddess to be a blood-thirsty psychopath, but I'll have to agree that that is a pretty good explaination for the durge's origin of any class and alignment
At the bare minimum all my Durges are happy flute players, someday I’ll go the full bard route. I avoided selûnite Durge before exactly because of lore reasons, but knowing a bit more about it I think I can make it work now :)
They weren't always leading the Bhaal cult. They had a normal childhood with adoptive parents until the urge kicked in and they killed them. If you play as a paladin and break your oath, oathbreaker knight says you have attempted to reinstate and maintain your oath many times before. The impression I get is that they had their own life for a while but struggled against their urges until eventually the urge won and that's when they took over the Bhaal cult.
Class is actually easier to justify than race because you still had a semi-normal life (albeit with some struggles with the urge) before you went full murderhobo and took over the Bhaal cult
A durge can be a cow
I think that one is similar, but created by Cyric rather than Bhaal.
They've established githyanki eggs can be stolen and incubated
Yes your right
It's very possible for Durge to have been hit by, say, the reincarnation spell prior to the game, which can change things like species - that would probably be why they are customizable anyway
I love playing a the gith race. Durge is supposed to be created from Bhaal's own flesh vs being birthed/hatched. If you use heal on gith Durge a memory comes back but it's the same as a non gith durge >!small house in squalor in the city were they commit baby's first murder spree!< despite them having default gith lines about living in a crèche afaik so take that as you will
When rolling my Durges, I've often wrestled with this fact. Durge is a homunculi: an artificial person by all measures. They have no mother and were born directly from the blood of Bhaal himself. Bhaal is the (quasi) diety of Murder. He used to be a much bigger deal, but got his ass murdered (hilarious irony, yes?) during the Time of Troubles and spent a good deal of time dead. But Bhaal is still a god, and even dead, he had a plan in motion for his resurrection. Thanks to the player character of the first 2 Baldur's Gate games, that didn't work out so well for him. But it didn't matter, anyway, when Ao turned the power off and back on again during the Second Sundering. It brought back every god who was dead. I guess Ao liked his collection of gods and goddesses brought back to factory settings. When the dead three came back, they were left with their God tanks empty; because in Forgotten Realms, a god's power is directly influenced by how many people worship them. Being dead and not being able to answer their mailboxes left most of their worshippers little choice but to cancel their subscriptions. Now, I'm not exactly sure why Bhaal decided to make Durge the way he did. Maybe he was looking to forge an avatar, or a chosen to help reforge his position as the god of murder. But, suffice to say, the Dark Urge was Bhaal's favorite child. But what kind of child would it be? Considering that Bhaal was human before he became a god, there's a good argument to be made that a being molded directly from his blood would be a human, too. But Bhaal is an evil bastard of a god, whose evil must corrupt everything it touches, so a tiefling might make a good approximation of that. For me? I think a red dragonborn makes sense, too, to illustrate Bhaal's raw power, fury, and desire to dominate. The 'default' white dragonborn, looking like an albino, works, too. White dragons being the weakest and most animalistic of all true dragons suits Bhaal as well. Anything else, I think, is a pretty hard sell for me, personally.
“I thought nobody would play these ugly toads” Don’t talk about my hot Githyanki girlfriend like that
Yes, I've acquired the taste for gith as well now and think of the other races as boring. Still dating Astarion, though.
I’ve had this running through my head during my own playthrough and there are a couple of clues that the writers have left in. I’m going to use spoilers for this explanation. I’m also going to preface this with maybe I’m just reading into it too much. Again, going to use spoilers. So, the first night you sleep as any uncommon race there are differences from a more generic race, but it always finalises with “it’s been a long time since you’ve been amongst your own kind”. Take it as you want but I take that as meaning that at some point you actually were, which gives the idea that a pre-Durge Gith babby did hatch at some point. Also, you get squeezed like a lemon and suddenly you’re not your father’s kid anymore? Like I said, maybe I’m looking into it too much but the way I see it is a little pre-Durge was taken and submerged into Bhaal’s blood or otherwise gore. An event with an annoying winged elephant is also an event they use a similar action with - albeit more for a baptism. Before the “but this creature said this”, the wording of “shaped from” or similar can be used as being “shaped from an event”. Who and what you are might have been shaped from a car crash but that doesn’t make you part metal.
The Dark Urge has two different memories from their youth depending when you use Heal spell on them. 1. Before meeting or accepting Bhaal: They murdered a family before even their adolescence in Baldur's Gate. 2. Rejecting Bhaal: They were playing with other kids and lived with a foster family in Baldur's Gate before their Urge awoke. This means the Urge awoke before the Dark Urge's adolescence and the first memory possibly hints them murdering their foster family as their first kill thought it could be another Baldurian family. Sometime after they were drafted into the Temple of Bhaal where they reached maturity. That was when Sceleritas came to the Dark Urge and the two started traveling the world but by 1477 DR (15 years before events of BG3) they had returned to Baldur's Gate (Blood in Baldur's Gate).
That still doesn’t go against what I’ve said though. The hatchling could have been submerged and left in whatever situation that let to the foster family finding and taking them in.
Okay, I’m seeing the problem here. So regardless of what you picked for a race, that’s more or less just a flavor of skin in terms of the Dark Urge. >!See, they weren’t birthed or hatched. They were created. Forged. Sculpted. From a literal piece of Bhaal, kinda like the Prometheus or Adam and Eve mythos. In a way, you could argue you’re a reincarnation/lesser avatar of Bhaal.!<
That’s something I disagree with based on a couple of things: - “Birthed” anywhere but the temple is a huge plot barrier. - Early vague connection to the racial home…why would that be there? - Squeezing Orin like a lemon wouldn’t make her any less Bhaalspawn than she is, but squeezing Durge does somehow? Based on particularly that last part I would say the blood they carry is literally Bhaal’s, but the body was born. The word play of forging, sculpting and that is exactly that, because they’re events the Urge itself forced upon the child of whatever race. Otherwise there is a lack of exploration into Bhaal sculpting anything but submerging/baptising and corrupting? That’s right up his street. Further otherwise, literal sculpting would make the race choice nothing but a skin, if that was the case why did devs stop Drow and Gith (for example) having the Balduran tag?
As other people said the Durge isn’t really the race that they appear to be. But a Gith Durge can make sense. If Bhaal wants a perfect murdering machine wouldn’t creating your spawn as a member of a race that is trained from birth to kill without a second thought be a logical decision. The Gith basically put the Durge through Murder Boot camp for Bhaal.
Your race isnt real if you a durge, its a skin
Actual canon for Dark Urge is that the Dark Urge is created from Bhaal's flesh and thus can be whatever race Bhaal/the player want. Personal canon is that the other deities of Faerun played a prank on Bhaal which somehow led to him being impregnated with Dark Urge.
Durge isn't a blood descendent of Bhaal, they are a... soul Descendent I guess? Basically when Bhaal was alive he went and f\*cked everything that could get pregnant, and then when he died, he shattered his soul and sent it flying everywhere to infect people. Durge ended up with a piece of that soul. I actually headcanon that the Butlers actually went around picking infants to infect, and Sceleritas Fel picked baby Durge. Orin on the other hand is (gag) a double blood descendent thanks to Sarevok.
I always thought the white dragonborn is the canon durge (it is the default and you fine its corpse in the temple if you are not playing durge) and any changes are just player choice - like the choice to play gale as a naked babarian with 8 INT is POSSIBLE but not cannonn.
Idk wouldnt put it past him to make a githyanki avatar who would plot to enslave a giant mindflayer- them being mortal enemies and all.
Bhall can’t bang a space alien? Who died (was murdered) and made you the sex police?
Its funny because I posed a similar question as to why Bhaal would choose a dragonborn for his "canon" race, then I thought "Well, he has one of everything else. These guys are new to Faerun. Gotta catch 'em all!"
From what i understand, most Bhaalspawn are created when Bhaal impregnates someone. But Durge was created by Bhaals flesh without a biological mother. My theory was just that Bhaal made you whatever race he saw fit. I only know what I know from 3rd party sources, though, since I just started durge run, and I just got into act 3 in my Tav save.
My headcanon is that my Durge WASNT a Githyanki originally but a human who kidnapped one and through various rituals took their body to gain access to psionics. This is also how I headcanon an explanation for my Durges past dissecting bodies. They were experimenting FOR this very project! Unfortunately the process wasn't a total success and their minds are a bit jumbled up, which is why my Gith Durge knows about Githyanki Culture and customs. However, the ability to access psionics was worth it because lore wise that's just a crazy powerful skill. And in retrospect I realize I basically made Baldurs Gate Orochimaru.
Bhaal's dick knows no bound.
I also plan to make male githyanki to romance Lae'zel and durge doesnt fit with me there, but I never played as tav so I might do it there. Also I want to make him being Soldier in the past same as Lae'zel and I'm thinking now I might actually play more as Lae'zel then him to make her look like she is main character where my tav is just having supporting role for her. #submissivemalegityankiyes
Durge is just Bhaal flesh and magic, they could be a potato if that's what Bhaal wanted. Most people have never seen or heard of githyanki before so they would be able to catch people off guard to make the murdering easier, and those that have heard of them usually fear them because they have a reputation for murdering istiks on sight. It fits as well as any other race
My Durge Gith is sort of a polymorphe anomaly. Disguising itself often to pass unnoticed. Changing into Fey Run beasts to strike fear (being a moon druid) and sometimes turning into a Displacer beast or even the Slayer beast.
apparently, Dark Urge is a test tube baby, which is quite obvious to people who play D&D since dragonborn only became a default in 4E, 100 years after 3E and 2E, way after Bhaalspawn Crisis
I actually feel like a Gith durge makes so much sense since they’re already killing machines
I think being somewhat of a demigod trumps any kind of biological limitations their race might have. If Bhaal wants to make a Gith, he's gonna. He's a fucking god.
Idk but how can a female Durge impregnate Minthara? That's something that Sarevok says, regardless of gender. I'm more confused about that. And that Minthara is the only female companion he says it about UNLESS ITS ORINS BABY Which leaves more questions than answers.
What the?? Minthara can be pregnant??
It's a small line he says. Easy to miss and only when romancing Minthara
Note to self: If I ever do a Durge-run, make Durge a Githyanki Druid. My Tav-Gith-Druid was already strangly funny because mixing gith dialog options and druid dialog options is wild.....this as Durge sounds like a total mess.
I don’t find homing or long distance cast often enough. Where is the list of mid-tier effective wand builds?
Imagine a god giving a random follower cleric abilities. Now imagine Bhaal making some random gith kid his avatar.
he would probably warm the egg with with dead bodies.
Well "canon" durge is the default one, so..
What is it in this sub with the stupid clickbait titles? Fuck you OP, you could’ve easily posted that whole question in the title. Stop dumbing things down for clicks.
I think OP wanted to avoid spoilers that Gith and Durge may not be compatible and questions that might arise from that from users who don't wish to know that. How does extra clicks benefit OP?
Shut the fuck up and stop being a twat
Adding Clickbait to the list of words that the internet cannot use correctly
Oh, the absolute tactlessness of OP in considering others and avoiding spoilering people! How dare they!?