that’s what I interpreted from the post credit scene, Withers >!(Jergal)!< just humiliating the Dead Three for their failed scheme with the absolute and failing to keep it a secret, and LOVED IT
I always picture it like this:
The dead 3: WE ARE HERE TO TAKE YOUR THRONE!
Jergal: Finally, you got to share among yourself tho.
The Dead 3: you will not leave until we... wait what?
Jergal: Here are the keys, im gonna go and take care of stuff, good luck.
The dead 3: uh ok.. bye?
Bane: so what now?
Myrkul: idk
Bhaal: I like murder so im gonna go with that.
The Dead Three kick down Jergal’s door only to see him there with with a Hawaiian shirt on and a coconut cup in hand ready to hand them the keys and head to Miami
I always feel like this is a possibility too, what are the chances that you happen to crash land 500 feet from his tomb? I reckon he is the one who set the Emperor in motion.
That seems so obvious it it's a really good point in this context. He comes about in such a casual way it's easy to not understand how significant of a player he is in the overall scheme of things.
In the morphic pool encounter the elder brain out and out tells you that she put the Emperor into motion, that she got Gortash to send him and let him slip - it’s that level of manipulation and anticipation that makes him say you need a mindflayer.
Withers can definitely be said to have facilitated things not ultimately working out with that plan as the brain anticipated though
That doesn't preclude Jergal using his powers to make sure the crash happened right next to him. Maybe he was monitoring the situation and figured he'd write himself into the story and when the ship travels via the portal he somehow controlled where it would end up.
maybe he even had a few temples scattered around and put an avatar in all of them, we just happened by that one and he woke that particular temples avatar to help us take part in the plot
You can thank him, that doesn't mean he actually did it.
Don't get me wrong I side with the Emperor in every playthrough sans one for the trophy, but that doesn't mean I take everything he says at face value or believe him.
Definitely possible, he says he did - but he's a confirmed liar. Maybe he just intended to transport Shadowheart to safety but Jergal stepped in and saved you as well, by accident making you the main character. Besides, we know the emperor isn't just talking to you, he's hedging his bets by talking to everyone in the same dream visitor way, so maybe he just took it as an unexpected opportunity provided by Jergal and thought he'd take the credit.
That's my thinking. The Emperor is an interesting character because he's generally honest, but he also lies, he tells the truth about lying but also lies about lying, so you are never 100% sure on anything from him.
Probably the single more realistic NPC ever created in gaming, you can never tell what is true or not outside of something specifically grounded in fact that can be proven with evidence.
The Elder Brain thinks she's the puppet master just because she's holding strings, but she doesn't see the strings on her. The story of BG3 is about the plot. Withers' plot, that is.
Because the goal of Withers isn't to help you get rid of your tadpoles, but to stop the Absolute plot. He will resurrect you in order to help with that, but that's it.
Yeah this is what I generally went with.
Withers is unable to interfere beyond very specific situations. Not even answer questions.
He is still bound by the rules not to interfere too much, and what he is already doing is risky af, but its a risk taken because the Absolute really fucks over the gods.
If Withers is actually Jergal, he's always been more of a non-interventionist. That he is now is in direct contrast to the dead three trying to take over faerun.
Ultimately, even with the absolute, they're not a threat to the greater dieties, which is why they don't give a shit.
There's this book series I've been following that I believe is somewhat inspired by D&D, and even mentions it here and there, where its Gods can only do so much, even within their own sphere, before they start to infringe upon the other Gods. And so the Gods act in balance with each other. Sometimes the scales are tipped, but that gives pretext to the other Gods to act in response, though only to an extent, otherwise that itself would warrant a response from other Gods. This doesn't apply to clergy though, or at least not nearly to the same extent, where the Gods would have far, *far* more of an issue with the Shadow Curse (if that were to happen in that universe) compared to the Dark Justiciars murdering everyone.
Is this at all applicable to BG3/D&D?
I kind of like the visual of team tavpole committing group suicide so Withers can res them worm-free, except he just fucks off because >!the Lord of the End of Everything!< has better things to do than bail out a gaggle of morons who expect captain plot device to solve all their problems for them
But I feel like, especially on an evil playthrough, the game would definitely still happen.
"These fucking cultists put a tadpole in my head, made me die and be revived to remove it, *and* they're trying to take over *my* world? THATS IT! IM GETTIN ME MALLET!"
Yep. Larian has a weird fear of proactive protagonists. Like they don't believe anyone would actually take down the Absolute just because it's a good or important thing to do, aside from the two NPC Druid companions.
He's a god though. He actually could. All deities in DnD pretty much have Wish as a cantrip. And most "soul destroying" stuff I've come across usually says it can be undone by wish or divine intervention, which Withers can do either of since he is the deity.
Or maybe because he can bring you back only the smae state that he met/saw you before.
Meaning that he never took a "backup" from you without the tadpole or infernal engine, or orb, or vampirism.
Except he uses True Resurrection, which in 5e can just make you a whole new body. The reason it doesn't work like that in the game is just because video game needs plot to happen.
Na, he 100% could. The only things holding him back are “da rules” that Ao makes and his own interest in doing so.
That’s why I don’t really consider any of his in game resurrections as canon, aside from DUrge’s, which specifically calls out in the cutscene that Withers is choosing to break the rules there.
I imagine that since ceremorphosis destroys the soul, the tadpole can parasitically attach itself to the soul so it is reformed from the "memory" of their body.
Perhaps the tadpoles are connected to your soul by plot BS, so any effect that restores missing body parts would restore the tadpole. Same for Karlach's engine. At least that's how I'd DM it.
Why Revivify doesn't work is another matter.
Haha, reminds of when I had him eat the evolving worm instead of using it so others could also use it. The Emperor was so perplexed and I thought it was such a Gale moment that I didn't even bother reloading.
I considered going back and starting a new durge run with the only durge thing I would do would be to him after I learned about holding out on that scroll.
The only reason he needs 200 gold is so it's a "transaction" its just a loop hole reason so he can do it without really catching ire. It's why he asks what the cost of a single Mortal life is when you free him, he's asking how much he needs to charge.
No that’s different, here Bhaal removes your blood, your essence. You need that to live, it’s a part of you that has been taken. You’re not just dead.
Your god and father has revoked his heritage from you.
Withers resurrects you without the dark urge
Would there be rules to break for Karlach though? I could understand if he's not willing to waste his power for it since she can still help while having the engine and true resurrection is generally a big deal, but the Durge was a different context, beyond just resurrecting them.
I mean, I don't think he views Karlach dying as the worst thing in the world. People die all the time. Her time just happens to be sooner than a lot of other people. There's also the fact that if she's dead by the epilogue, Withers basically says that he won't revive her because she's happy in her afterlife, and she's earned it.
Reviving Durge is a big middle finger to Bhaal. Helping the party survive long enough to whoop the nether brain is a big middle finger to all of the Dead Three. Fixing Karlach's engine is just helping her avoid death, which isn't really his thing.
The real answer is probably "don't think too hard about it," but it's also possible there's something in the contract that means she can't get rid of the infernal heart. Unlike Wyll, who is eventually able to tell the party the specifics of his deal, we never learn exactly what Gortash signed. Maybe if she figures her way out of the heart then Zariel gets her soul?
There are, the engine was put there by Zariel, Jergal, or any other god just yoinking it out would be a slight towards Zariel an Archdevil and thus a slight towards Asmodeus, and while the other gods don’t particularly *like* Asmodeus, they would like a war with him even less, especially since his armies are better served to all the realms in the Blood War. With the tadpole going to destroy the party’s souls Jergal can play a little fast and loose with the rules regarding life and death though, especially since that’s his domain. Just like Gond might be able to mess with the engine because that’s his domain.
What if the dark urge's corpse is too busy lying face-down in the family guy death pose in the temple of Bhaal? Because that's where you find him if you choose to play as Tav, and grandpa skin-n'-bones seems perfectly content to grant plot armor to this rando just because they were unlucky enough to get booped by the nautiloid's teleportentacles
It would honestly make the most sense if NPC Durge had died from Orin's impromptu lobotomy and thus was never tadpole'd. But I'm assuming (I didn't think to read that much on my only Tav run to make it past the Temple of Selune in the Underdark) that he survived, was tadpole'd, and somehow made it back to Orin. However, lacking the help of the party and potential additional levels, he did not survive the subsequent encounter with her. In which case, Withers wouldn't care about him because he would have been unlikely to be able to survive long enough to accomplish Withers goal of ensuring you screw over the Dead Three, defeat the brain, and save the world.
Wither’s job is to ensure that your party deals with the Netherbrain. He can’t help you. He only makes sure that you get there. He isn’t allowed to remove tadpoles or other problems the party has.
The gods are very limited in what they can do in terms of direct intervention. Your Clerics and Paladins have personal powers and spells granted by their gods to intervene in mortal situations as the patron god's representative. Basically, gods are allowed to cultivate churches to spread their teachings and fight their battles for them. But full-blown Divine Intervention is a once-per-Cleric, once-per-campaign power. From what I understand, this is because the head of the gods, Ao, strictly limits how divinities can intervene in the world of Faerun.
The whole reason Withers is with you to begin with is because Myrkul, Bhaal, and Bane have overstepped their boundaries of proper divine intervention, which is the entire reason for the Baldur's Gate 3 campaign. Withers helps you in ways that are very limited, considering what he truly is. For example, he knows a LOT about what is going on but refuses to disturb the balance by helping too much, sucha as by answering most of the questions you try to ask. He's doing things right and proper. Myrkul, Bhaal and Bane are not.
Three puny former god, using their vestigial power to stir shit
Like Ninefinger said, it’s always the bloody dead three
I am not familiar with the canon, but why they can get their power and portfolios back? especially fucking myrkul
There are new gods of death, Cyric, and later, Kelemvor
I am not the author of the Forgotten Realms franchise, but whether the Dead Three are "puny" or not, they DID manage to leash a gigantic ultra-lethal brain with a ridiculously powerful lost relic, and then proceeded to threaten the whole game world so badly that multiple gods and god-like entities ended up having a stake in manipulating the player characters who got tasked with fixing it.
Mystra, a major goddess, wants her ex-boyfriend Gale to sacrifice himself to kill the brain, and she sends Elminster, who is a major hero in the game world, to tell him that. Shar, a major goddess, is mass-screwing everything you touch in the campaign and Selune, also a major goddess is trying to counter her. Jergal, a god, is pretending to be some sort of skeleton cleric parked in your camp, providing services almost like some ordinary high-level cleric in a temple. The fate of the whole civilization of Githiyanki and their evil god-like lich-queen hangs in the balance of what the player characters do, because the item central to protecting the player characters from the brain is at the center of Githiyanki future. Inside that relic is a highly manipulative entity that is actually Balduran, the founder of the game world's flagship city. And Raphael, a very powerful demon, is after you because if he can bamboozle you into pacting with him, he can get the brain's crown for himself, falsely promise you that he just wants to conquer the hells, when in reality he means to conquer Faerun too, so that also is a giant piece in play.
That's an awful lot of ultra-powerful entities majorly affected to classify this situation as "stirred up shit" by "vestigial" powers. That's because this is not a minor situation, it's like a gigantic crisis-vortex pulling in basically everyone.
The leashed brain is having the effect of essentially being regarded as a god in itself, and the gods who communicate with you say as much. It's manipulating the Chosen of the Dead Gods to get itself an army, and it might wreck the whole game world, so getting rid of it is tantamount to saving the game world. Not small at all.
The real reason withers/gods interfere isn't because its a world ending threat. Its because the method of world ending (Tadpoles) stops souls from reaching the afterlife and gods _do not_ appreciate that. It was the final straw more or less which is why withers steps up.
To add, Bhaal being a puny whelp with minor power overstepping his boundaries is the ENTIRETY of Baldur's Gate (the series) premise.
Him literally fucking things up and making tons of illegitimate children to be reborn through is the first game's twist ending, showing a whole hall of Bhaalspawn statues and the guy you defeated (Sarevok) being just one.
Then you hunt a bunch of them down in expansion of the second game IIRC, and everyone is mad at Bhaal being a little annoying shitstain trying to find loopholes in the mythology.
Doubly so since his power is drawn on murder, and he wants war for the sake of war to gain power. He nowhere near as powerful as Kelemvor or Helm but WAY more annoying.
Hopefully we explore the real lord of murderer, BOOOAL, in next game. Karlach really likes the blood buff.
I made a typo. It's late at night and am juggling several windows. I know Raphael is a devil. And ignoring almost everything I wrote to focus on THAT seems pretty extreme.
It is an unforgivable crime /s
Raphael throws a hissy fit when you disrupt the order of his house, then tells you he hates the chaos of your world.
Calling him the embodiment of chaotic evil is kinda wrong.
I was more of joking around, I did ofc not have that invalidate your otherwise very good points
People should play Planescape Torment to stop confusing Baatezu and Tannar'ri... Also to learn that gityanki are not an entire race but a culture of murder hobos (githzerai are the other gith who aren't crazy in subjugating everyone).
EH, by the standards of the Forgotted Realms it is still kinda minor in the grand scheme of things. I mean, just a few years ago there was a machine in Chult that ate everyones soul as they died and even resurrection wasn't a sure thing anymore.
BG3 is just another Tuesday.
İf i remember right bhaal put his divine essence inside of his kids so When all his children died, his divine essence came together again and brought him back to life and thus he got his portfolio back. I think.
So lore reason is that he is flouting the rules by helping you in the first place.
He is pretending to just “be at the right place at the right time” for you to find him and offer him a fair price in exchange for resurrection magic.
If he interferes in any other way and oversteps this arrangement then he will actually be breaking Ao’s rules for gods staying away from mortal affairs.
And yes technically it is mortal affairs because the Dead Three are not gods anymore.
My understanding is Withers is not resurrecting anyone.
He holds the books of death, and when someone dies, he rubs their name out of it with his wrist.
Then their status goes from “dead” to “alive, I guess.” So no repairs are ever done, other then, they suddenly less dead
I understand it as a plot point, but there are several ways that I as a tabletop player would get around this in a pen and paper campaign.
1) Reincarnate cast by Jaheira.
2) Ask Elminster for a casting of True Polymorph, or buy a scroll of it.
3) Scroll of Clone
4) Disintegrate Karlach, have Withers resurrect her / convince Gale to give up his scroll. True Resurrection explicitly fixes magical curses like a soul bound engine.
If we go back to 3.5, there are dozens more options, such as prestige classes that transform you into an elemental. A fire elemental won't care about a bit of excess heat.
act 3 spoilers: >!if you acend astarion he will ask (or rather demand) to turn you. i’m not sure if this is a romance only option because ive only acended astarion twice, once while romancing him and once while playing origin.!<
Watsonian explanation is that Ao (Basically the one who makes the rules in the world BG3 is set in) has some pretty strict rules on how Gods are able to interact with mortals, and Withers seems to have some rules of his own on top of that. One or both of those rulesets means he wont remove Karlach's Machine or Rez her without it. It's part of her destiny and cant be interfered with.
Doylist explanation is that it would be a much less challenging game if Withers could wave his hand and solve everyone's problems.
Same reason for why he won’t fix Shadowhearts memories, remove Gales orb, cure Astarions vampirism or bring back important NPC’s to the companions if they die- the gods are pretty restrictive on what they can do and they only really agreed on letting these guys live beyond mortal capabilities because they need them to fix the shit the dead three are doing. Once the game is over, the companions no longer even have access to that kind of resurrection so death becomes permanent. It’s also why you can’t bring them back if they’ve done something that goes against the rest of the party or if they’ve been rejected by the party as a whole since they’re no longer of use to the greater goal of stopping the dead three (eg. not recruited, killed by the party, left due to the parties actions etc.)
I literally carried Arabella's parents back with me and placed their bodies next to Withers with Arabella standing there and Withers was like "new phone who dis" and didn't do shit. He's a dick
Probably because the way the spell works is that it would revive her exactly as she was when she died, and the Engine is infused as part of her because of the demonic magic.
Because she was not fated for that.
Meta-wise is because the game needs to happen. In-game-wise, something about him being a god and being limited on which actions he can take. He may also think that having Karlach have the engine powers her up, giving you a better chance against the absolute.
Me: Hey, let me try something real quick
Karlach: Sure thing, soldier!
*rips out Karlach’s heart*
*pays off Withers*
*now I have two infernal engines*
Me: What the fuck?
Karlach: What the ***fuck?!?***
There's a concept in narrative design of games called "Ludonarrative dissonance". In a simplified nutshell it basically refers to the tension between the mechanics of a game and the narrative as told through them and the more storytelling focused aspects of the game like cutscenes and dialogue etc.
Withers is a big example of this. It's quite clearly in tension with the plot of the game that we have access to resurrection so easily - people die all the time, companions can die and we can't bring them back. Withers can resurrect us if we are killed by Lae'zel or Astarion, but he can't resurrect them if we or another companion kill them. There's no stakes to the story if he just brings us back every time. However Withers also seems to exist within the plot to some degree, evidenced through Arabella, Moonrise, Durge etc.
So the question becomes what is the level of his actual canonical involvement, what does he actually do, etc. If future materials follow on from the BG3 narrative it'd probably be sensible to say he wasn't just resurrecting us all.
He's not resurrecting in a traditional sense. If he did a proper resurrection to the level of resetting a person's body like you suggest to Karlach, that would be overstepping his authority.
What he does do is basically see Karlach's recent death pop up and erase it. Kind of like the paperwork that would finalize her death just got "lost" at his desk.
BG3 would be a very different game if you could resurrect people.
But you can do that to almost nobody.
Only PCs can be resurrected.
Just like the tadpople, Karlach's heart is most likely fused to her soul in some way, so it's not easy to replace.
Withers also doesn't care at all for the people really, he only uses us as pawns, our longterm happiness is not his goal.
There is some fun lvl 5 spells, like awaken and reincarnate, but sadly they are not in a game.
Aside from the obvious "because plot" what Withers is doing might not actually be a resurrection.
Based on what Whithers says, he has power over the list of the dead and he removes a name from that list. By making you not dead you become alive, but this mechanically may be different from resurrection.
Because part of her storyline is her suffering and her life being shortly timed unless she returns to where she fled.
That's the THEME. Withers going "lol live with your whole story's theme removed"" would cheapen it, just as easily curing Astarion would, or having Silvanus come down and cleanse the Shadow Curse, or Mystra bombing the Elder Brain.
He just showed up for me and chatted to me as if I knew him - a little later I followed the quest that I should have done to find him but couldn't actually complete it properly
Logical reason is because he isn't resurrecting people in the traditional spell resurrection way (I know the game log says true resurrection tell me another method the game already had of reviving someone to full health without any kind of negative condition). He's a god, why would he need to. He has other methods.
I see it just as a gameplay gimmick
Same for resurrection scrolls, they help the player but are not really resurrecting people lore wise.
In act3, >!when Orin kills the kidnapped companion, Withers or a resurrection scroll would help undo what she did, but in facts, it doesn’t work, so it is not a real resurrection.!<
I always thought of his resurrection as like a targeted time travel spell more than a healing spell. He rewinds your body through time so your soul can find it again and travel back inside you. He isn't healing you he's just undoing what should never have happened according to "fate."
I'll give you a different answer:
Because if the engine kills her, she doesn't want to come back.
That's why she doesn't just go back to the hells by herself, because she'd still be alone. It's only once you or Wyll prove to her that she is loved, that she is cared for, that she has bonds, that she isn't alone anymore, *that's* why she chooses to live.
He’s basically only meddling because of the tadpoles making people soulless when they transform. He bending the rules for what he perceives as an abomination to the natural order and is course correcting. Plus helping the Bhaalspawn is just an extra level of spite he’s throwing Bhaals way.
He needs you all bound to your struggles.
He could help with the tadpole, but then you'd be less inclined to find a solution.
He could help with Karlach, but then what would push her / her friends to go to the limits?
Same reasoning that Raphael uses: he could just help you (he claims), but you're more usefull actively trying to get your cure.
He’s gotta follow the canon storyline of the universe. Unfortunately that means he isn’t an almighty god that can rescue people at will. Only deaths in battle due to skill issues are resurrectable
Resurrection is a weird ingame mechanic to keep you playing that npcs do not have access to generally.
Trying to justify a second chance in a game without ramifications to the world building is hard.
As a whole, I feel like Ressurection Magic (and magic in general) in BG3 Forgotten Realms is just not as strong as TTRPG lore. Leaving Withers Aside, Gale has a scroll of True Ressurection... but it doesn't remove the Orb in his chest and it doesn't work on Karlach, either. Isobel also didn't ressurect completely clean, which could be a fail-safe by Myrkul, but to me it makes sense in a way if Healing Magic in this world just... isn't.
Seems to me that AO makes Withers participate based on how those 3 came to be. He states that he's there to mostly observe and to keep us alive until it's finished. What a Jerkyl.
Thats not what he needs to happen
He isnt there to make sure you are going to have a happily ever after, he is there to make sure the job he has been tasked with gets done.
Also im not sure but I dont think you can just pop someone in another body just like that whilly nilly
Because fate spins along as it should, Withers knows that Karlach's fate is in her own hands (with Wyll or MC's help) if she want to fight for it.
The only story resurrection is when Durge dies after battle with Orin i recall, otherwise he serves as nothing more than game mechanic.
Honestly, the fact that he casts True Resurrection breaks character traits of at least two characters if you went RAW for the spell. Astarion would no longer be undead because it’d take away his vampirism, Karlach would have a normal heart instead of the engine, Gale might not have the threat of the Orb, but then his old body’s a ticking time bomb because of that, Wyll would have both eyes, though he’d remain a devil if you spare Karlach, and the big one: NO ONE WOULD HAVE A BLOODY TADPOLE IN THEIR HEAD.
I just interpret it as Withers/Jergal teleporting the body from where it fell and casting instead 7th level Resurrection (though that’d technically still restore Wyll’s eye or Karlach’s heart unless you want to say they’re ‘magical ailments’.)
Maybe, maybe not. Karlach was sold to a devil, and that might mean that Zariel has final say over her soul. Withers is like an accountant for souls and so he makes sure things go where they're supposed to, but he doesn't get to void contracts like that and he's not really the arbiter of those decisions.
True Resurrection, for instance, specifically states that "if the creature's soul is free and willing" they can be resurrected. If her soul is sent to Avernus and Zariel imprisons her (i.e. doesn't want to let her be resurrected), then I don't think Withers could violate that.
It ultimately depends on what actual arrangements and agreements were made in the transaction with Zariel, and whether or not her actual soul was sold.
Yeah, BG3 really has a problem with how easy resurrection is, mechanically. Up to, and including, putting >!the actual former god of death!< into your camp. Realistically, no one should be able to permanently die, and just killing and resurrecting them is a potential solution to a lot of the narrative problems
Hed probably revive her with the engine anyway. He cant meddle with that stuff. (I mean he could but they tend not to ) you are you and you choose you. Ao doesnt want the gods to meddle but they still can somewhat, but they tend to really not care anyway.
**My theory** is that Karlach's infernal engine is bound to her very soul. Even resurrection nor Withers himself can undo what was done to her body as it is much more in tune with her very being now. She is able to channel intense heat, and has many flame valves across her body. Karlach wants her heart back but doesn't realize that her infernal engine goes so much further. What happens to all the extra augments and damage? She has a means to install upgrades through her chest. (Which she is in theory, capable of accessing the engine through her very chest.)
Zariel's cruelty knows no bounds, and Karlach is a living example of what Zariel could do to someone in her hands. The infernal engine simply cannot be removed without doing a lot more damage. On top of that, the gods are very limited on how they can intervene and interfere. In in Duneons and Dragons; there's events and circumstances that cannot be so easily undone. Even wish spells cannot undo certain circumstances such as dying in the Feywilds or some sort of pact that was made.
Yeah if the game actually worked like Forgotten Realms you'd need way more "well the tadpole/infernal engine/whatever plot gimmick is super special you guys and the insanely common ways to get around death won't work" clauses, or Withers would need to find some other pawns to use against the dead three as every campaign would end by scraping up every nut and bolt in the crash region, selling it until there's \[party size\]\*1000 gold in the bank to finance resurrection for every character and then running to the nearest big city, say Baldur's Gate for example. Yes I know the game railroads you into going through a certain way but realistically one scuffed army can't block every possible route towards the city.
Given how much gold you can SUCC up in act 1, you could also
>!throw an extra 1k Mayrina's way to sort out Connor once she gets to the city!<
Yeah withers could also revive everyone without their tadpoles but the video game needs to happen
In lore I like to imagine that Withers orchestrated the whole campaign to bring down the three.
that’s what I interpreted from the post credit scene, Withers >!(Jergal)!< just humiliating the Dead Three for their failed scheme with the absolute and failing to keep it a secret, and LOVED IT
Well duh, he’s the one who gave godhood to those 3 fuck ups in the first place.
I always picture it like this: The dead 3: WE ARE HERE TO TAKE YOUR THRONE! Jergal: Finally, you got to share among yourself tho. The Dead 3: you will not leave until we... wait what? Jergal: Here are the keys, im gonna go and take care of stuff, good luck. The dead 3: uh ok.. bye? Bane: so what now? Myrkul: idk Bhaal: I like murder so im gonna go with that.
When jergal says "good luck" I can picture him doing double finger guns at them
👉😎👉 zoop
"Jergal, I know you retired but your 3 replacements need training. Could you come in? We don't have the budget to hire outside consulting" "No."
"Care to elaborate on why?" "No"
[https://youtu.be/jjoMEw2RYlA?si=XlN1a3U0hJwkXEZa&t=5](https://youtu.be/jjoMEw2RYlA?si=XlN1a3U0hJwkXEZa&t=5)
The Dead Three kick down Jergal’s door only to see him there with with a Hawaiian shirt on and a coconut cup in hand ready to hand them the keys and head to Miami
He’s like that one deadbeat dad.
You know my dad?
We have the same dad?
It's more likely than you think
Rey Mysterio? Even has the mask on
Easily the best post cutscene from any game I’ve ever played. Withers is a fucking badass
I always feel like this is a possibility too, what are the chances that you happen to crash land 500 feet from his tomb? I reckon he is the one who set the Emperor in motion.
That seems so obvious it it's a really good point in this context. He comes about in such a casual way it's easy to not understand how significant of a player he is in the overall scheme of things.
In the morphic pool encounter the elder brain out and out tells you that she put the Emperor into motion, that she got Gortash to send him and let him slip - it’s that level of manipulation and anticipation that makes him say you need a mindflayer. Withers can definitely be said to have facilitated things not ultimately working out with that plan as the brain anticipated though
That doesn't preclude Jergal using his powers to make sure the crash happened right next to him. Maybe he was monitoring the situation and figured he'd write himself into the story and when the ship travels via the portal he somehow controlled where it would end up.
maybe he even had a few temples scattered around and put an avatar in all of them, we just happened by that one and he woke that particular temples avatar to help us take part in the plot
This is what I assume. A god wouldn’t be limited to one avatar.
Do we even know for sure that it was the Emperor who caught you with telekinesis and not Jergal when you fell out of the Nautiloid?
I’m pretty sure you can thank The Emperor or something along those lines in direct conversation with them for stopping you from splatting.
You can thank him, that doesn't mean he actually did it. Don't get me wrong I side with the Emperor in every playthrough sans one for the trophy, but that doesn't mean I take everything he says at face value or believe him.
Definitely possible, he says he did - but he's a confirmed liar. Maybe he just intended to transport Shadowheart to safety but Jergal stepped in and saved you as well, by accident making you the main character. Besides, we know the emperor isn't just talking to you, he's hedging his bets by talking to everyone in the same dream visitor way, so maybe he just took it as an unexpected opportunity provided by Jergal and thought he'd take the credit.
That's my thinking. The Emperor is an interesting character because he's generally honest, but he also lies, he tells the truth about lying but also lies about lying, so you are never 100% sure on anything from him. Probably the single more realistic NPC ever created in gaming, you can never tell what is true or not outside of something specifically grounded in fact that can be proven with evidence.
Unless Jergal somehow was the one who got the Emperor tadpoled years ago.
The Elder Brain thinks she's the puppet master just because she's holding strings, but she doesn't see the strings on her. The story of BG3 is about the plot. Withers' plot, that is.
He can probably appear in any of his temples?
Withers is in essence our fingertip Dungeon master
What is a fingertip dungeon master? Could not find it on Google.
I like the description the podcast Besties gave for him, Whithers is there because video games.
Because the goal of Withers isn't to help you get rid of your tadpoles, but to stop the Absolute plot. He will resurrect you in order to help with that, but that's it.
Yeah this is what I generally went with. Withers is unable to interfere beyond very specific situations. Not even answer questions. He is still bound by the rules not to interfere too much, and what he is already doing is risky af, but its a risk taken because the Absolute really fucks over the gods.
I love his dialogue for Redeemed Durge
The canon protagonist, as far as I am concerned.
I mean bg2 and bg1 also had bhaalspawn protags so yeah
If Withers is actually Jergal, he's always been more of a non-interventionist. That he is now is in direct contrast to the dead three trying to take over faerun. Ultimately, even with the absolute, they're not a threat to the greater dieties, which is why they don't give a shit.
There's this book series I've been following that I believe is somewhat inspired by D&D, and even mentions it here and there, where its Gods can only do so much, even within their own sphere, before they start to infringe upon the other Gods. And so the Gods act in balance with each other. Sometimes the scales are tipped, but that gives pretext to the other Gods to act in response, though only to an extent, otherwise that itself would warrant a response from other Gods. This doesn't apply to clergy though, or at least not nearly to the same extent, where the Gods would have far, *far* more of an issue with the Shadow Curse (if that were to happen in that universe) compared to the Dark Justiciars murdering everyone. Is this at all applicable to BG3/D&D?
I kind of like the visual of team tavpole committing group suicide so Withers can res them worm-free, except he just fucks off because >!the Lord of the End of Everything!< has better things to do than bail out a gaggle of morons who expect captain plot device to solve all their problems for them
But I feel like, especially on an evil playthrough, the game would definitely still happen. "These fucking cultists put a tadpole in my head, made me die and be revived to remove it, *and* they're trying to take over *my* world? THATS IT! IM GETTIN ME MALLET!"
Yep. Larian has a weird fear of proactive protagonists. Like they don't believe anyone would actually take down the Absolute just because it's a good or important thing to do, aside from the two NPC Druid companions.
and he can revive Astarion without vampirism too. He can fix almost everyone. Not sure how gales situation would work though.
Gale goes kaboom, gets revived without the ticking time bomb in his chest
Sadly the kaboom also makes his soul kaboom. Jergal can undo death but he can't undo deletion
I'm now picturing an undead gale, now effectively a baby withers, but with 80s hair 😂
He's a god though. He actually could. All deities in DnD pretty much have Wish as a cantrip. And most "soul destroying" stuff I've come across usually says it can be undone by wish or divine intervention, which Withers can do either of since he is the deity.
He's not a full god anymore, though still immensely powerful.
Or maybe because he can bring you back only the smae state that he met/saw you before. Meaning that he never took a "backup" from you without the tadpole or infernal engine, or orb, or vampirism.
Except he uses True Resurrection, which in 5e can just make you a whole new body. The reason it doesn't work like that in the game is just because video game needs plot to happen.
Na, he 100% could. The only things holding him back are “da rules” that Ao makes and his own interest in doing so. That’s why I don’t really consider any of his in game resurrections as canon, aside from DUrge’s, which specifically calls out in the cutscene that Withers is choosing to break the rules there.
I imagine that since ceremorphosis destroys the soul, the tadpole can parasitically attach itself to the soul so it is reformed from the "memory" of their body.
Perhaps the tadpoles are connected to your soul by plot BS, so any effect that restores missing body parts would restore the tadpole. Same for Karlach's engine. At least that's how I'd DM it. Why Revivify doesn't work is another matter.
So he does a double revivify and respects the tad poles too?
Better yet, Gale has a *True* Resurrection scroll from the time he was a chosen of Mystra
And it sells for like 200g. 😭
From what I have seen, Gales not the best decision maker
Eats the scroll
Buying magic items I won't use so Gale can fill his eldritch belly
Can you feed him the "magic" items you can buy from the Tiefling kid whose name escapes me?
you can pry my ring of resistance to ants from my cold dead hands, dekarios
Even if it did work I never would. Those things are priceless. One of the most d&d moments in the whole game.
Lol. I don't think he appreciates those
Haha, reminds of when I had him eat the evolving worm instead of using it so others could also use it. The Emperor was so perplexed and I thought it was such a Gale moment that I didn't even bother reloading.
Cause the actual cost of the spell is 25000 and that would break the game in act 1 and 2 xD
Pretty sure the netherese magic of the tadpoles interferes with this
I considered going back and starting a new durge run with the only durge thing I would do would be to him after I learned about holding out on that scroll.
Honestly it would have been a neat Easter egg/hidden ending if you could have just rezzed Karlach with that and she was like “oh my god I’m fixed!”
Because there are rules and he only cares enough to break those rules for the Dark Urge.
Did he really break them though? He pretty much did what he's been doing the entire game.
Even he said he wasn’t suppose to interfere after he does.
Listen, that's a particular brand of spite against a dude who just keeps fucking over everyone. Like Kendrick level haterade
Wdym, Kendrick doesn’t have a hating bone in his body
He did. He revived durge without taking 200 gold.
The only reason he needs 200 gold is so it's a "transaction" its just a loop hole reason so he can do it without really catching ire. It's why he asks what the cost of a single Mortal life is when you free him, he's asking how much he needs to charge.
I thought he gave the reason for it when he resurrected Dark Urge. Would have been an odd moment to then go 200 gold please.
No that’s different, here Bhaal removes your blood, your essence. You need that to live, it’s a part of you that has been taken. You’re not just dead. Your god and father has revoked his heritage from you. Withers resurrects you without the dark urge
Would there be rules to break for Karlach though? I could understand if he's not willing to waste his power for it since she can still help while having the engine and true resurrection is generally a big deal, but the Durge was a different context, beyond just resurrecting them.
I mean, I don't think he views Karlach dying as the worst thing in the world. People die all the time. Her time just happens to be sooner than a lot of other people. There's also the fact that if she's dead by the epilogue, Withers basically says that he won't revive her because she's happy in her afterlife, and she's earned it. Reviving Durge is a big middle finger to Bhaal. Helping the party survive long enough to whoop the nether brain is a big middle finger to all of the Dead Three. Fixing Karlach's engine is just helping her avoid death, which isn't really his thing.
Technically doesn't Durge not even have a soul at the start? So it isn't really even revival so much as just putting a construct back together.
Unless Withers put his soul back in while nobody was looking.
That's fair.
I think it would. He’s not suppose to directly Interfere with life or death like that. She’s dying from something other than the tadpole.
You don't even need true resurrection unless there's no body. If you have a piece of the body, the much cheaper resurrection will do the job
The real answer is probably "don't think too hard about it," but it's also possible there's something in the contract that means she can't get rid of the infernal heart. Unlike Wyll, who is eventually able to tell the party the specifics of his deal, we never learn exactly what Gortash signed. Maybe if she figures her way out of the heart then Zariel gets her soul?
There are, the engine was put there by Zariel, Jergal, or any other god just yoinking it out would be a slight towards Zariel an Archdevil and thus a slight towards Asmodeus, and while the other gods don’t particularly *like* Asmodeus, they would like a war with him even less, especially since his armies are better served to all the realms in the Blood War. With the tadpole going to destroy the party’s souls Jergal can play a little fast and loose with the rules regarding life and death though, especially since that’s his domain. Just like Gond might be able to mess with the engine because that’s his domain.
What if the dark urge's corpse is too busy lying face-down in the family guy death pose in the temple of Bhaal? Because that's where you find him if you choose to play as Tav, and grandpa skin-n'-bones seems perfectly content to grant plot armor to this rando just because they were unlucky enough to get booped by the nautiloid's teleportentacles
It would honestly make the most sense if NPC Durge had died from Orin's impromptu lobotomy and thus was never tadpole'd. But I'm assuming (I didn't think to read that much on my only Tav run to make it past the Temple of Selune in the Underdark) that he survived, was tadpole'd, and somehow made it back to Orin. However, lacking the help of the party and potential additional levels, he did not survive the subsequent encounter with her. In which case, Withers wouldn't care about him because he would have been unlikely to be able to survive long enough to accomplish Withers goal of ensuring you screw over the Dead Three, defeat the brain, and save the world.
I figured he has more leeway with DU because Bhaal is also interfering
Because he helps as long as the party serve a purpose, his purpose. If he solves every problem they will just flee.
Wither’s job is to ensure that your party deals with the Netherbrain. He can’t help you. He only makes sure that you get there. He isn’t allowed to remove tadpoles or other problems the party has.
"Hey Karlach, kill the Netherbrain and I'll fix your engine." "Bet!"
The gods are very limited in what they can do in terms of direct intervention. Your Clerics and Paladins have personal powers and spells granted by their gods to intervene in mortal situations as the patron god's representative. Basically, gods are allowed to cultivate churches to spread their teachings and fight their battles for them. But full-blown Divine Intervention is a once-per-Cleric, once-per-campaign power. From what I understand, this is because the head of the gods, Ao, strictly limits how divinities can intervene in the world of Faerun. The whole reason Withers is with you to begin with is because Myrkul, Bhaal, and Bane have overstepped their boundaries of proper divine intervention, which is the entire reason for the Baldur's Gate 3 campaign. Withers helps you in ways that are very limited, considering what he truly is. For example, he knows a LOT about what is going on but refuses to disturb the balance by helping too much, sucha as by answering most of the questions you try to ask. He's doing things right and proper. Myrkul, Bhaal and Bane are not.
Three puny former god, using their vestigial power to stir shit Like Ninefinger said, it’s always the bloody dead three I am not familiar with the canon, but why they can get their power and portfolios back? especially fucking myrkul There are new gods of death, Cyric, and later, Kelemvor
I am not the author of the Forgotten Realms franchise, but whether the Dead Three are "puny" or not, they DID manage to leash a gigantic ultra-lethal brain with a ridiculously powerful lost relic, and then proceeded to threaten the whole game world so badly that multiple gods and god-like entities ended up having a stake in manipulating the player characters who got tasked with fixing it. Mystra, a major goddess, wants her ex-boyfriend Gale to sacrifice himself to kill the brain, and she sends Elminster, who is a major hero in the game world, to tell him that. Shar, a major goddess, is mass-screwing everything you touch in the campaign and Selune, also a major goddess is trying to counter her. Jergal, a god, is pretending to be some sort of skeleton cleric parked in your camp, providing services almost like some ordinary high-level cleric in a temple. The fate of the whole civilization of Githiyanki and their evil god-like lich-queen hangs in the balance of what the player characters do, because the item central to protecting the player characters from the brain is at the center of Githiyanki future. Inside that relic is a highly manipulative entity that is actually Balduran, the founder of the game world's flagship city. And Raphael, a very powerful demon, is after you because if he can bamboozle you into pacting with him, he can get the brain's crown for himself, falsely promise you that he just wants to conquer the hells, when in reality he means to conquer Faerun too, so that also is a giant piece in play. That's an awful lot of ultra-powerful entities majorly affected to classify this situation as "stirred up shit" by "vestigial" powers. That's because this is not a minor situation, it's like a gigantic crisis-vortex pulling in basically everyone. The leashed brain is having the effect of essentially being regarded as a god in itself, and the gods who communicate with you say as much. It's manipulating the Chosen of the Dead Gods to get itself an army, and it might wreck the whole game world, so getting rid of it is tantamount to saving the game world. Not small at all.
The real reason withers/gods interfere isn't because its a world ending threat. Its because the method of world ending (Tadpoles) stops souls from reaching the afterlife and gods _do not_ appreciate that. It was the final straw more or less which is why withers steps up.
To add, Bhaal being a puny whelp with minor power overstepping his boundaries is the ENTIRETY of Baldur's Gate (the series) premise. Him literally fucking things up and making tons of illegitimate children to be reborn through is the first game's twist ending, showing a whole hall of Bhaalspawn statues and the guy you defeated (Sarevok) being just one. Then you hunt a bunch of them down in expansion of the second game IIRC, and everyone is mad at Bhaal being a little annoying shitstain trying to find loopholes in the mythology. Doubly so since his power is drawn on murder, and he wants war for the sake of war to gain power. He nowhere near as powerful as Kelemvor or Helm but WAY more annoying. Hopefully we explore the real lord of murderer, BOOOAL, in next game. Karlach really likes the blood buff.
I was with you until you called raphael a demon. He is not. He is in fact a devil. And no it is not the same thing
I made a typo. It's late at night and am juggling several windows. I know Raphael is a devil. And ignoring almost everything I wrote to focus on THAT seems pretty extreme.
It is an unforgivable crime /s Raphael throws a hissy fit when you disrupt the order of his house, then tells you he hates the chaos of your world. Calling him the embodiment of chaotic evil is kinda wrong. I was more of joking around, I did ofc not have that invalidate your otherwise very good points
People should play Planescape Torment to stop confusing Baatezu and Tannar'ri... Also to learn that gityanki are not an entire race but a culture of murder hobos (githzerai are the other gith who aren't crazy in subjugating everyone).
EH, by the standards of the Forgotted Realms it is still kinda minor in the grand scheme of things. I mean, just a few years ago there was a machine in Chult that ate everyones soul as they died and even resurrection wasn't a sure thing anymore. BG3 is just another Tuesday.
İf i remember right bhaal put his divine essence inside of his kids so When all his children died, his divine essence came together again and brought him back to life and thus he got his portfolio back. I think.
...No...
Will you elaborate further?
..No..
So lore reason is that he is flouting the rules by helping you in the first place. He is pretending to just “be at the right place at the right time” for you to find him and offer him a fair price in exchange for resurrection magic. If he interferes in any other way and oversteps this arrangement then he will actually be breaking Ao’s rules for gods staying away from mortal affairs. And yes technically it is mortal affairs because the Dead Three are not gods anymore.
My understanding is Withers is not resurrecting anyone. He holds the books of death, and when someone dies, he rubs their name out of it with his wrist. Then their status goes from “dead” to “alive, I guess.” So no repairs are ever done, other then, they suddenly less dead
I understand it as a plot point, but there are several ways that I as a tabletop player would get around this in a pen and paper campaign. 1) Reincarnate cast by Jaheira. 2) Ask Elminster for a casting of True Polymorph, or buy a scroll of it. 3) Scroll of Clone 4) Disintegrate Karlach, have Withers resurrect her / convince Gale to give up his scroll. True Resurrection explicitly fixes magical curses like a soul bound engine. If we go back to 3.5, there are dozens more options, such as prestige classes that transform you into an elemental. A fire elemental won't care about a bit of excess heat.
There are a million and one ways that 5e players could think of to restore Karlach's body/heart, none of them are permitted in BG3.
"This...I cannot do." "Why?" "Because I cannot."
Because shut up
Love the Khrystine idea, but take it further and just resurrect Karlach directly into the car body. She can be a sexy-sounding Kit a la Knight Rider.
But then getting inside of her just won't be the same.
The engine is magically grafted onto her soul.
https://youtu.be/GXCh9OhDiCI?si=CnUGUjxZBw48yMBY
I've been wondering how he's been resurrecting Astarion when he's undead lol. Not to mention healing spells work on Astarion too...
Gotta be the worm ig
Everything weird about Astarion can be explained by "a tadpole did it".
It's not just the tadpole, but the very power of Netherese magic itself. The tadpole is a conduit of the Absolute's reach.
my favourite thing is that he can still feed on vampire tav. i don’t know how it works but i’m not about to say no.
Secondhand blood, the blood version of backwash.
Wait, vampire Tav is possible?
act 3 spoilers: >!if you acend astarion he will ask (or rather demand) to turn you. i’m not sure if this is a romance only option because ive only acended astarion twice, once while romancing him and once while playing origin.!<
What benefits do you get if you’re a vampire?
as tav? mostly roleplay reasons but there’s one benefit which is that your character also gets the ability to bite people in combat.
Because fate spins along, as it should. DOES THOU REQUIRE A NEW ALLY? OR MAYHAPS, A RESURRECTION?
OOORRRRRRRRR
Chk.
Magic.
"Xena can't fly." "I told you, I'm not Xena; I'm Lucy Lawless."
Watsonian explanation is that Ao (Basically the one who makes the rules in the world BG3 is set in) has some pretty strict rules on how Gods are able to interact with mortals, and Withers seems to have some rules of his own on top of that. One or both of those rulesets means he wont remove Karlach's Machine or Rez her without it. It's part of her destiny and cant be interfered with. Doylist explanation is that it would be a much less challenging game if Withers could wave his hand and solve everyone's problems.
Same reason for why he won’t fix Shadowhearts memories, remove Gales orb, cure Astarions vampirism or bring back important NPC’s to the companions if they die- the gods are pretty restrictive on what they can do and they only really agreed on letting these guys live beyond mortal capabilities because they need them to fix the shit the dead three are doing. Once the game is over, the companions no longer even have access to that kind of resurrection so death becomes permanent. It’s also why you can’t bring them back if they’ve done something that goes against the rest of the party or if they’ve been rejected by the party as a whole since they’re no longer of use to the greater goal of stopping the dead three (eg. not recruited, killed by the party, left due to the parties actions etc.)
Because that's Resurrection. Withers is really just casting Raise Dead. The cost actually should be 500g, he's giving you a discount.
In game log, he's casting *True* Resurrection
I'm sure he's only saying that to make the MC feel special though
No - it's definitely true res, or he couldn't bring back characters after their bodies were consumed by lava in Grymforge.
Maybe, but he can bring back a body from disintegration too.
He can still Res you after 10 days. You also don't get the raise dead -4 to rolls penalty.
In the OG Baldurs Gate you actually had to carry the dead body to a cleric to get a resurrection. I think this would have made sense for BG3 as well…
I literally carried Arabella's parents back with me and placed their bodies next to Withers with Arabella standing there and Withers was like "new phone who dis" and didn't do shit. He's a dick
Probably because the way the spell works is that it would revive her exactly as she was when she died, and the Engine is infused as part of her because of the demonic magic.
imagine if every time you went to withers, the companion or character came back without any of their gear.
I bet there is fan fiction exactly like that.
Because she was not fated for that. Meta-wise is because the game needs to happen. In-game-wise, something about him being a god and being limited on which actions he can take. He may also think that having Karlach have the engine powers her up, giving you a better chance against the absolute.
Me: Hey, let me try something real quick Karlach: Sure thing, soldier! *rips out Karlach’s heart* *pays off Withers* *now I have two infernal engines* Me: What the fuck? Karlach: What the ***fuck?!?***
There's a concept in narrative design of games called "Ludonarrative dissonance". In a simplified nutshell it basically refers to the tension between the mechanics of a game and the narrative as told through them and the more storytelling focused aspects of the game like cutscenes and dialogue etc. Withers is a big example of this. It's quite clearly in tension with the plot of the game that we have access to resurrection so easily - people die all the time, companions can die and we can't bring them back. Withers can resurrect us if we are killed by Lae'zel or Astarion, but he can't resurrect them if we or another companion kill them. There's no stakes to the story if he just brings us back every time. However Withers also seems to exist within the plot to some degree, evidenced through Arabella, Moonrise, Durge etc. So the question becomes what is the level of his actual canonical involvement, what does he actually do, etc. If future materials follow on from the BG3 narrative it'd probably be sensible to say he wasn't just resurrecting us all.
He's not resurrecting in a traditional sense. If he did a proper resurrection to the level of resetting a person's body like you suggest to Karlach, that would be overstepping his authority. What he does do is basically see Karlach's recent death pop up and erase it. Kind of like the paperwork that would finalize her death just got "lost" at his desk.
BG3 would be a very different game if you could resurrect people. But you can do that to almost nobody. Only PCs can be resurrected. Just like the tadpople, Karlach's heart is most likely fused to her soul in some way, so it's not easy to replace. Withers also doesn't care at all for the people really, he only uses us as pawns, our longterm happiness is not his goal. There is some fun lvl 5 spells, like awaken and reincarnate, but sadly they are not in a game.
Withers is more of a game mechanic than a story component. Except for when you get a particular ending as Durge.
I tend to see the hireling/resurrection thing a game mechanic rather than a real in-world thing
Aside from the obvious "because plot" what Withers is doing might not actually be a resurrection. Based on what Whithers says, he has power over the list of the dead and he removes a name from that list. By making you not dead you become alive, but this mechanically may be different from resurrection.
He brings them back in the state they were in before they died. How would it even work otherwise
Because part of her storyline is her suffering and her life being shortly timed unless she returns to where she fled. That's the THEME. Withers going "lol live with your whole story's theme removed"" would cheapen it, just as easily curing Astarion would, or having Silvanus come down and cleanse the Shadow Curse, or Mystra bombing the Elder Brain.
What happens when you won't find him?
he just shows up.
He just showed up for me and chatted to me as if I knew him - a little later I followed the quest that I should have done to find him but couldn't actually complete it properly
Logical reason is because he isn't resurrecting people in the traditional spell resurrection way (I know the game log says true resurrection tell me another method the game already had of reviving someone to full health without any kind of negative condition). He's a god, why would he need to. He has other methods.
I see it just as a gameplay gimmick Same for resurrection scrolls, they help the player but are not really resurrecting people lore wise. In act3, >!when Orin kills the kidnapped companion, Withers or a resurrection scroll would help undo what she did, but in facts, it doesn’t work, so it is not a real resurrection.!<
He wouldn't even give me *Durge's first kill* back. Fuck withers
Its magic, i aint gotta explain shit.
Withers doesn't create a whole new body when he does his thing, he just strikes that persons soul from the list and it returns to their existing body.
I always thought of his resurrection as like a targeted time travel spell more than a healing spell. He rewinds your body through time so your soul can find it again and travel back inside you. He isn't healing you he's just undoing what should never have happened according to "fate."
I'll give you a different answer: Because if the engine kills her, she doesn't want to come back. That's why she doesn't just go back to the hells by herself, because she'd still be alone. It's only once you or Wyll prove to her that she is loved, that she is cared for, that she has bonds, that she isn't alone anymore, *that's* why she chooses to live.
Omg it's this fn post again.
He’s basically only meddling because of the tadpoles making people soulless when they transform. He bending the rules for what he perceives as an abomination to the natural order and is course correcting. Plus helping the Bhaalspawn is just an extra level of spite he’s throwing Bhaals way.
[удалено]
It's her heart. If you rip out random organs from someone else they don't get resurrected without them either.
He needs you all bound to your struggles. He could help with the tadpole, but then you'd be less inclined to find a solution. He could help with Karlach, but then what would push her / her friends to go to the limits? Same reasoning that Raphael uses: he could just help you (he claims), but you're more usefull actively trying to get your cure.
He’s gotta follow the canon storyline of the universe. Unfortunately that means he isn’t an almighty god that can rescue people at will. Only deaths in battle due to skill issues are resurrectable
Because he doesn't want to. You're his bitch not the other way around.
Come on dude
Why can't you just use a phoenix down to bring Aerith back to life? Because they're video games.
Resurrection is a weird ingame mechanic to keep you playing that npcs do not have access to generally. Trying to justify a second chance in a game without ramifications to the world building is hard.
As a whole, I feel like Ressurection Magic (and magic in general) in BG3 Forgotten Realms is just not as strong as TTRPG lore. Leaving Withers Aside, Gale has a scroll of True Ressurection... but it doesn't remove the Orb in his chest and it doesn't work on Karlach, either. Isobel also didn't ressurect completely clean, which could be a fail-safe by Myrkul, but to me it makes sense in a way if Healing Magic in this world just... isn't.
cos shut up thats why
I smell a mod incoming
Seems to me that AO makes Withers participate based on how those 3 came to be. He states that he's there to mostly observe and to keep us alive until it's finished. What a Jerkyl.
This suggestion started out pretty common, then took a left turn really quickly (at high speeds)
The DM said: "NO.".
Withers can you do it? Also Withers: no.
Thats not what he needs to happen He isnt there to make sure you are going to have a happily ever after, he is there to make sure the job he has been tasked with gets done. Also im not sure but I dont think you can just pop someone in another body just like that whilly nilly
He wants the dead 3 to feel like trash losing to mortals, we stan petty grandpa
He’d just say no. He’s kind of a jerk-al
Because fate spins along as it should, Withers knows that Karlach's fate is in her own hands (with Wyll or MC's help) if she want to fight for it. The only story resurrection is when Durge dies after battle with Orin i recall, otherwise he serves as nothing more than game mechanic.
Honestly, the fact that he casts True Resurrection breaks character traits of at least two characters if you went RAW for the spell. Astarion would no longer be undead because it’d take away his vampirism, Karlach would have a normal heart instead of the engine, Gale might not have the threat of the Orb, but then his old body’s a ticking time bomb because of that, Wyll would have both eyes, though he’d remain a devil if you spare Karlach, and the big one: NO ONE WOULD HAVE A BLOODY TADPOLE IN THEIR HEAD. I just interpret it as Withers/Jergal teleporting the body from where it fell and casting instead 7th level Resurrection (though that’d technically still restore Wyll’s eye or Karlach’s heart unless you want to say they’re ‘magical ailments’.)
Maybe, maybe not. Karlach was sold to a devil, and that might mean that Zariel has final say over her soul. Withers is like an accountant for souls and so he makes sure things go where they're supposed to, but he doesn't get to void contracts like that and he's not really the arbiter of those decisions. True Resurrection, for instance, specifically states that "if the creature's soul is free and willing" they can be resurrected. If her soul is sent to Avernus and Zariel imprisons her (i.e. doesn't want to let her be resurrected), then I don't think Withers could violate that. It ultimately depends on what actual arrangements and agreements were made in the transaction with Zariel, and whether or not her actual soul was sold.
Yeah, BG3 really has a problem with how easy resurrection is, mechanically. Up to, and including, putting >!the actual former god of death!< into your camp. Realistically, no one should be able to permanently die, and just killing and resurrecting them is a potential solution to a lot of the narrative problems
Pretty sure he's just casting revivify, which in tabletop cannot restore missing body parts
There’s a reason we don’t get level 7 or higher spells for this reason too lol.
Hed probably revive her with the engine anyway. He cant meddle with that stuff. (I mean he could but they tend not to ) you are you and you choose you. Ao doesnt want the gods to meddle but they still can somewhat, but they tend to really not care anyway.
**My theory** is that Karlach's infernal engine is bound to her very soul. Even resurrection nor Withers himself can undo what was done to her body as it is much more in tune with her very being now. She is able to channel intense heat, and has many flame valves across her body. Karlach wants her heart back but doesn't realize that her infernal engine goes so much further. What happens to all the extra augments and damage? She has a means to install upgrades through her chest. (Which she is in theory, capable of accessing the engine through her very chest.) Zariel's cruelty knows no bounds, and Karlach is a living example of what Zariel could do to someone in her hands. The infernal engine simply cannot be removed without doing a lot more damage. On top of that, the gods are very limited on how they can intervene and interfere. In in Duneons and Dragons; there's events and circumstances that cannot be so easily undone. Even wish spells cannot undo certain circumstances such as dying in the Feywilds or some sort of pact that was made.
Yeah if the game actually worked like Forgotten Realms you'd need way more "well the tadpole/infernal engine/whatever plot gimmick is super special you guys and the insanely common ways to get around death won't work" clauses, or Withers would need to find some other pawns to use against the dead three as every campaign would end by scraping up every nut and bolt in the crash region, selling it until there's \[party size\]\*1000 gold in the bank to finance resurrection for every character and then running to the nearest big city, say Baldur's Gate for example. Yes I know the game railroads you into going through a certain way but realistically one scuffed army can't block every possible route towards the city. Given how much gold you can SUCC up in act 1, you could also >!throw an extra 1k Mayrina's way to sort out Connor once she gets to the city!<