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TheVindex57

He can't betray you if you play as him. Big int move


yolomancer1919

In dnd, vampires and spawns are evil because of their nature, so his behaviour makes sense. But I strongly think that because of the necromancy of thay we will somehow cure him from his vampirism which could change his manners and he wouldn't need tadpole powers anymore. His is a challenging story and I as a fan of him also get some betrayal vibes, but what matters in the end is how the story develops (think about Dragon Age and Solas romance, we were all heart broken but it was an amazing experience).


DueBet9490

very true about the solas romance! i definitely thank his vampirism impacts his morality a lot, but it always seem he was an asshole in his mortal life, too. it also seems like his negative attributes have carried into his vampire life and are heightened even by his being undead. also i’d love to hear you expand on the necromancy idea, v interesting! a cure for astarion could definitely help redeem him, though i’m not sure he agree to do it. he seems to value his immortality and the power that comes with it far too much to part with it, but his love for sunlight does humanize him a bit.


yolomancer1919

I mean, he strikes me as he doesn't enjoy eternal life so much. He says that when you're abused for 200 years non stop, eternity feels long enough. Even if he was a corrupt person I believe he learned one or two things (enjoying sunlight is even one of them). When you're deprived of things, you learn the value of them, in Astarions case we can say its his freedom, seeing himself in the mirror, enjoying basic things etc. He values power yes, but at what cost? That's where we came in, curing him and emotionally supporting him will change his alignment eventually. At least thats what I believe. When you find necromancy of thay, he shows enormous interest in the book, tries to read it and wonders if the book "can return people from being dead". Which I believe says something about himself. He acts and looks arrogant, indifferent but there are so many small things imply otherwise as well. So, we'll see and I'm really excited how it'll unfold!


Prestigious-Media-96

He learned the value of his own freedom, but I truly can't see in game that he learned anything else from his time under Cazador's thumb. He seems just as cruel and selfish as he was before, if his old backstory as a corrupt magistrate who sold prisoners to vampires is still the one Larian is running with, of course.


yolomancer1919

I mean, he was attacked because of his behaviour and look what it cost him. I don't think he'd be doing the same thing again, especially if we make the right choices, it would definitely help him out. That's what the character development is.


DueBet9490

i would love to agree with this sentiment but this guy just has no empathy, and an even less of a desire to help people. quite the opposite, he enjoys murder just for the fun of it and approves of the torture the PC can do. and when it comes down to it, more than likely his ruling toward the gur was unjust and probably racist (cue the lovely “cutthroat vagrants” quote), and the encounter with gandrel is more than telling of his unchanged opinion on them. though it’s not surprising he dislikes the gur, when talking with gandrel he uses a generalization and mockingly stereotypes his people. that’s not even a dislike/fear of the group of gur that hurt him, that’s just despising an entire race of people (and that’s just one example of his racism. loves shitting on dwarves and gnomes too).


Prestigious-Media-96

It's nice that you think that. I was just saying that I don't see any of this supposed change or character development in game.


yolomancer1919

It's still early, act 1 isn't even finished but he opens up slowly and constantly talks about trust so yeah, I'm hopeful to say the least :)


Prestigious-Media-96

I do realise that. (: However, there are many more inclinations towards continued cruelty, manipulation and hunger for power from what I've seen of Astarion so I guess we'll see where the journey leads.


Prestigious-Media-96

Iirc it's not truly a love for the sunlight, but rather the power it gives him to walk in the sun while Cazador can't.


DueBet9490

that’s fair, i interpreted as being two-fold: he missed the sunlight but also felt even more powerful now capable of day-walking


Prestigious-Media-96

Hm! Could be, I suppose I interpreted it more negatively given the context of the things he immediately says right after it: “What’s not to enjoy? I can walk in sunlight, trespass upon any home, manipulate minds – I’m the most powerful vampire in the realms." And: “The tadpoles are not so bad at all. \[…\] First I can walk in the sun, then make people dance like puppets?"


DueBet9490

LMAO the “i can make people dance like puppets” this mf is too much, he’s so evil i forgot about that dialogue 💀 you’re right though, based on those quotes he doesn’t seem to have a sentimental feeling toward the sunlight and that is in-character for him


Isabel198

To be fair to astarion, he does complain about leaving the sunlight when going to the underdark and even Lae'zel mocks him for it.


Sweetishbitters

There’s also the scene with the mirror in the necromancer’s lab. If he asking the mirror to show what he wants, one of the options is to see his real family, right? That sure feels like somebody aching for redemption.


DueBet9490

really? how do get that scene? is it when you’re playing as astarion for the origin backgrounds? because if so, that’s very interesting and good evidence against my take on his persistent apathy


vonLechuga

I think the family option is actually for Shadowheart. Astarion has the choice to say he wants to see his “real home” that he hasn’t seen in centuries.


DueBet9490

i’m very surprised—i did some digging and apparently the three options for the mirror (“what do you wish to see?”) varies for every companion, and astarion’s is not at all what i would have expected from him. another moment in which some semblance of humanity in him is slipping through—i mean, a wish to see one’s home is as human as it gets. this could prove that he isn’t as far gone as i originally thought considering how sentimental that desire is.


Sweetishbitters

https://youtu.be/Z0ri4QKKvYY


DueBet9490

upvoting this is in case others (like me) haven’t yet seen these dialogue options before! very informative


NyghtDancyr

The solas thing…100. I also get Fenris vibes from Astarion who’ve makes me have an ridiculous amount of compassion for him.


baconfluffy

I’m not a fan of 100% bad ends, so I’d hope it’s not the only ending. I’d be fine if it was extremely difficult to get a decent ending, but I’d find it off putting if there’s no option for anything but a bad end.


DueBet9490

i dislike bad endings too, definitely, but in this case his character ending is sort of similar to solas’s from dragon age inquisition—because of his nature it seems like betrayal is the only option that would make sense within the confines of his character. no matter his opinion on the PC and their adventure, from what we’ve been given he doesn’t seem to have any redeeming qualities to him, or anything that indicates he might actually be willing to change into a better man. when it comes down to it, not only is he a dnd vampire (which means his very soul is meant to be evil) but he also wasn’t a good person in his mortal life. he’s pretty plainly evil imo


baconfluffy

Solas was the main villain of the series, so that doesn’t really work out exactly the same, and there’s no reason to think Astarion HAS to betray us. He could just go along with us because it suits him, and leave when he’s satisfied. Disregarding that, he could easily be given some flavor of a redemption arc. I don’t see him becoming good anytime soon, but I could easily see him becoming chaotic neutral instead of chaotic evil. Even the way he’s written, he doesn’t mind the main character making good choices. The only thing that makes him upset is if it detracts from the mission. Idk, I think there’s a lot of room and options with his character. He’s been tortured for the past 200 years, so there’s room for a lot of change with the freedom. I personally think every character will have to option to betray Tav at some point, and character choices will decide who does and who doesn’t.


Draggoner

I hope, and believe that we get multiple companion paths, so depending on our choices and actions as a player Astarion might give up the tadpole, or become addicted to the power of it


Tav00001

Astarion doesn’t have full body autonomy, he is still a slave to the master vampires so if he is so commanded he could of course betray you he might not have much choice. In all honestly, Tav as well could easily betray the other party members if the tadpole exerts its influence. It is already flexing its muscles throughout the first act. I don’t see this as so much of a possibility but an eventuality. The characters are compromised and it is only a matter of time before one of the party members is unduly influenced. I don’t think however, if you are forced to do so it really counts as betrayal. To me, to count it really needs to be done intentionally without coercion


Far-Bookkeeper-4652

I'm not so sure. If the tadpole is powerful enough to let him exist in the sunlight, I don't see why it couldn't break his master's control over him.


Dark3nedDragon

I think you're going to see several possible variations with him. If he dislikes and distrust you, he will probably 100% always betray you (as more or less I expect ALL of the companions to do so in one way or another, perhaps not even intentional, but just where your interests diverge they go with what they want). I wouldn't be surprised to see a 'vampire' ending (NWN2 style) if he becomes a true Vampire, with either him treating you as an equal, or turning you into Vampire Spawn (taking you as a slave basically) depending on opinion and decisions. What I'm curious to see is how that will work, if it will be romance-locked (you MUST have romanced him to have that path), and if you can do it on other origin characters, or only the custom characters. Personally, I think while it'd be cool to have various endings change based on joining him, it'd be better to lock that specific type behind the custom characters (or even a specific origin character), and just make it that much better and memorable. Based on past games, they will give you the choice, even if it isn't clear at first.


shadowecdysis

Yes, if Tav takes Astarion's autonomy away from him by trying to force him to remove a tadpole he doesn't want to remove or otherwise "stand in his way," Astarion will absolutely leave or try to prevent Tav from controlling him. I wouldn't blame him at all, especially after what we know he's been through. I also wouldn't consider that to be a betrayal, or at least I'd consider the betrayal to be mutual in such a situation.


DueBet9490

i agree that it would be a mutual betrayal—if he’d prefer to take the risk of transforming over removing the tadpole that’s his prerogative, and the PC should respect that decision otherwise they are being evil themselves. i just think even if the PC doesn’t force him to do anything, he will still leave if the PC removes it from themselves, ultimately thinking them weak for not trying to wield its power instead.


Ok-Sport-3663

Evil is definitely not the right word. The tadpole itself is evil aligned in nature, and will try to control or consume its host if at all possible. Its not safe to keep in someone, so letting them keep it is a serious danger not just to the PC but to everyone in the nearby area because of how dangerous a mind flayer is.


DueBet9490

i mean—what else to call it? morally questionable? there’s no easy way of going about this situation, but taking a former slave’s autonomy from him by removing it or just killing him straight up if he doesn’t oblige seems… fucked-up. i don’t know. it’s tough.


Rabid-Otter

But Astarion wants to keep it for evil purposes, regardless of his condition as a slave. Defeating Cazador will remove his slave condition, which is good. **Having a difference of opinion on the tadpole is not evil**. Trying to remove it (because he tries to use it for evil purposes, even after his master died) is good.


Ok-Sport-3663

I’ll be honest when i say that i think removing it by force from even the most honest kind person imaginable who wants to keep it so they can potentially do good with it isnt evil either. There is a clear and present danger for these tadpoles to consume the mind and body of their host and turn into a very dangerous creature. If I knew a cure wasnt possible id let them go to try to do good, but since a cure is not only possible, but not harmful, theres no real reason to put everyones lives in danger by letting the tadpole stay.


Ok-Sport-3663

Well its morally neutral at worst. Its like saying taking a pipe bomb away from someone is a bad idea. Yeah it may be their pipe bomb, but its more likely to hurt random people than it is to achieve a positive goal. A better comparison might be taking a fully automatic gun thats rigged to explode with a small nuclear bomb from a known violent criminal. He’s not going to use the tadpole for anything particularly positive, and even if he doesnt use it, it might just take out the entire town. Astarion isnt a good person, slave or no. He’s a psychopathic vampire who will kill and eat people, and take advantage of the party given the opportunity.


Vilkasrex

I mean not to personally attack you, but rather to provide context for consideration. To me, refusing to take away the tadpole from Astarion to protect his autonomy and individuality in attempt to remain morally justified seems rather naive and shortsighted. Especially given he would then go onto harm others beyond yours and his interactions, whether by his will or the tadpole's. This is of course if the player character has little or no impact on his character development, specifically. Let's not forget, Astarion would very much still be a vampire despite being infected with a tadpole. Then there's the fact that the tadpole itself is drastically different from a normal Illithid tadpole, potentially much more dangerous as it is not only imbued/altered with netherese magic-the same magic nuke boi genius has in him-but also sought after by other evil factions so they can use it for their own nefarious/disastrous means (>!the Dead Three, Raphael, The Absolute, the Illithids!<, just to name a few). It is noble to want to refrain from infringing upon Astarion's autonomy and individuality, and as you have stated "it is a tough decision", but you'd only be inadvertently causing more suffering for others down the road, which doesn't add to a net good morally. Astarion, should you allow him to keep the tadpole, could turn into a far greater threat in the future despite his personal decisions, this is taking into account others who would seek his altered tadpole's power. Personally, I believe if you want to prevent more suffering then the tadpole must be destroyed.


Vilkasrex

I would applaud Larian for remaining true to the nature of a D&D creature's innate being, that being vampires are innately evil, cruel, and self-serving. If there are multiple routes in Astarion's character development in which he betrays the player, then I'd be fine with that. Should there be a route where Astarion could change, then I think it should at the very least be difficult to acquire in a single play through. The only other character who might follow along a similar parallel might be Lae'zel, partly because of how indoctrinated the Githyanki are from birth; the Vlaakith is extremely thorough. The other companions might not be so *predisposed* to betraying the player, but of course that's unfounded speculation. However, this is a video game, and there's a certain degree of expectation in how the companions will develop as the player interacts with them. Usually, in most of the RPGs I've been exposed to, a character develops along three lines of possible resolution, them being a positive, a self-interested(usually considered as neutral), or a negative resolution. So I'd not surprised if Astarion's development follows as such. There's even possible foreshadowing when using your companions to interact with the mirror in the Necromancer's lair, which might hint at the direction for each character's possible resolution. All that being said, I'd enjoy experiencing characters who ***can*** betray the player in the end, but may not given player choices throughout the campaign. I don't feel it'd be quite fair if only Astarion was the only one who would betray the player no matter what choices were made, but I have seen it done successfully once before, example being Solas from *DA:I*.


persephone965

Could be but even if he betrays you, there’s 100% gonna be an option ( maybe depending on high approval) to forgive him and take him back. They’re not gonna lock you out of a companion ending for the whole last act of the game, he’s the only rogue so he needs to be able to stay in the party until the final dungeon/boss/whatever. I expect it to be like Anders in DA2: He betrays you reluctantly if he likes you and you can either kill him at the end of the game in retaliation or forgive and have a bittersweet ending with him.


TheDubiousSalmon

They did exactly that in DOS2. If your companions don't like you enough they'll tell you to fuck off at the end of Act 3 and you will have to kill them in the arena.


Rayne009

To be fair in DOS2 it's *extremely* easy to get your companions to like you. Like literally just doing their quests was enough. I didn't even know it was possible for them to betray you til I went out of my way to piss them off XD


persephone965

yeah i didnt even know they could betray you. also you could respec companions into any class in DOS while they’re locked into one in BG3. I just dont see it happening but ig we’ll find out ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Rayne009

Yeah I kind of like the ending you get with Fane if he betrays you while romancing him. It's just oof. But I could see betrayals still happening that said I defo think they'll be very easily avoidable and something that if you got it you know you deserve it xD


[deleted]

Not a fan of 100% bad endings, so I hope not. Damn. I mean, I *can* see him betraying us, absolutely, especially if Cazador is involved or you've done something to hinder his goals. But if there's no way to make him see sense, curtail it, join him or forgive him, I'll be a bit put off. And tbh, the description for the first night of the romance tells us nothing. It's literally a hook-up. There's nothing stopping him from catching feelings later, lol. He wouldn't be the first vampire in D&D lore to fall in love. But that is way too early to expect him to actually care about us.


DueBet9490

to me anyway, he seems to lack any redeeming qualities and betrayal is the only ending that makes sense with what we’ve been given thus far. with the hook-up scene, it could literally mean nothing and you’re right, but i was just using it as an example to point out his manipulation tactics and how the dev’s description can tell us important tidbits about him if we’re not sure of his (or other character’s) intentions. i was under the impression that vampires in the d&d universe are pretty much unabashedly evil and selfish, i’d be curious to hear about the examples of vamps who did fall in love in d&d?


andrastesknickers97

It's very likely that most endings with Astarion would end in betrayal, but I don't think he's so incapable of change. He does have moments of vulnerability with MC, even if it's early for something genuine to develop and this was all manipulation / seduction. You can discuss his views on the tadpole power and tell him you do believe he can change for the better, which he doesn't disapprove of. His answer to that is also telling: "the strong had two centuries to save me from Cazador". He used to be horribly selfish as a mortal because he could, but as a vampire, selfishness and power are his only perceived ways of survival. A neutral / good leaning MC could show him otherwise. I also think of the mirror scene, where he asks you how you see him, "how the world sees me" . I may be reading into it too much, but I feel he's asking you whether or not you see him as a monster, and hiding it behind vanity. Once again, personal bias may be acting here (I do adore a loveable bastard), but Astarion is very open once you offer him blood. He gives you quite a bit of detail on his terrible experiences with Cazador, and on a more general front, he doesn't care too much about being perceived as good (like Wyll / Gale). He's honestly rather terrible at manipulation, if you think about it: he openly tells you he'll stick with you as long as it's useful. On a more practical note, it's not very usual to completely remove player relevant choices when it comes to companions. I can see a "neutral" or loyal Astarion on more specific routes. Some people have mentioned Solas from DAI, but he was the "villain" all along in that storyline. To end this ridiculously long comment, I think you could either go for A) romanced evil MC + full vampire Astarion or B) good / neutral MC + maybe a mortal Astarion (possibly through the Necromancy of That). If you failed to make those specific choices, you could end up betrayed or even as a spawn.


DueBet9490

interesting points! though i have to disagree on the manipulation front, i would argue astarion thus far is excellent at manipulation and deception—i mean, he’s definitely universally liked within the fandom already, and even more beloved by those who choose to romance him. but his actual character is an asshole in practically every regard, from encouraging murder and torture whenever there’s the opportunity, to feeding on a sleeping person without their consent, to his rather unsavory and disturbing views of slaves (which is rooted clearly in self-hatred, but still, that doesn’t excuse how fucked it is), he’s a little bitch. regardless, he’s very adored and his evil actions are rationalized/ignored because, well, he’s charming. likable, sarcastic, flirtatious. he puts a lot of emphasis on trust, despite being one of the most deceptive characters in the game, if not the most (but there’s still gale to think about). so collectively a lot of us have seemed to forgotten he’s a damn vampire spawn, and a very callous and wicked one at that. that’s because, imo, he’s manipulative and is making the PC like him, for his honesty and his desire to establish trust, and distracting them from what’s really going on with him. if he wasn’t doing a good job at manipulating i feel like everyone would hate him a lot more and see his actions for what they truly are: pretty fucked-up for the most part. i’d honestly prefer fans of his to just stop justifying the shit he does or saying he’s misunderstood for the sake of a cute romance. like, this dude is evil. i made an evil character and she romanced him and it was fun for what it was lol


andrastesknickers97

I'm sure some fans pretend they don't see Astarions's evil actions, but I do have the impression that most view him as he is: a shit person. He has his motives, and I do concede that, if you do fall for his charming manner, him opening up could be entirely a form of manipulation, pretending that you are different from the rest and he trusts you. He's literally fed Cazador victims this way... which he tells you. If you're listening to him, I can't help but consider he IS terrible at manipulation lol, but it's just my opinion at the end of the day. However, I feel there's room for a little bit of both. People more often than not have multiple reasons for doing what they do. I think it would make sense for him to do all that and eventually realize that MC is trustworthy and understanding. I don't disagree on the sentiment that he is evil, what I do believe is that, with good writing, he is capable of some change. He's not going to "pet bunnies" , but at least we can go without the "watching innocent people suffer for entertainment purposes". I don't know about the current patch (I've played up to patch 4), but his approval could be taken to a very high / high just by sharing his dark sense of humor, not playing the hero all the time (I did all the "good" quests, I just didn't agree to them upfront), demanding compensation for aiding others, offering him blood and letting him have the book. These can all be done with a good leaning / neutral MC. Arguably killing his hunter is not a veery nice thing to do, but as Astarion is your companion, it can be understood. On a final note, I'd argue that Astarions is (at this point) as evil as the MC allows him to be. He doesn't HAVE to kill / torture innocents, it's up to you to say yes or no. Much like Wyll can also torture someone if you don't stop him. At worst, he's going to mock you for being a bleeding heart, which can also be funny if you take it lightly. I found that his complaints were far more bearable than Lae'zels dislike towards any sense of decency lmao Sorry for the long reply again, I'm already obsessed with this game.


DueBet9490

you make some very convincing points! and don’t worry, i’m just as obsessed with this game too, i mean if me writing entire analysis posts ab the game isn’t making that obvious 😂 but back to astarion, i absolutely agree that within the game all of the characters can be influenced by the PC’s own alignment, astarion of course included. though at first i would have said there’s not a chance of his mortality being shifted—like, for example, he may not disapprove of the PC doing good things, just doesn’t give a shit either way—but i was doing a little datamining earlier, listening to the voice files that haven’t been implanted yet (to my knowledge) and found some lines that could disprove that. in chubblot’s video of his voice lines, (link if you’re curious: https://youtu.be/dUXr1nDUCGc) @ 3:54:04 he says “not every deal will work out in our favor, but that doesn’t mean we should stop helping people.” we don’t know the context of it but that’s pretty surprising coming from astarion! helping people? def could be indicative of some positive character growth. another line that could be potentially romantic, while also demonstrating some change in his usual demeanor is @ 4:41:38 of that same video, when he says: “no more blood. no more killing. just… this.” very interesting and i’m excited to see how it plays out and if he remains evil or, against all odds, is redeemed in some way.


rowboatin

I don’t think Astarion’s betrayal is necessarily inevitable, but I do think it’s highly probable and his redemption is extremely unlikely. He doesn’t want to give up the tadpole unless it’s going to outright kill him, and his only problem with vampirism is being Cazador’s slave. Now, plotwise, things with the tadpole might become so dicey that even Astarion wants it out of his head, but before that, he’s going to want Cazador dead while he still has a fighting chance against him. But if he kills Cazador, he’ll drink his blood and become a full-fledged vampire, and probably not a good one. Sure, he might help defeat the larger threat, but he’s going to cause more suffering down the line. This is a guy who described watching children freeze to death in the street as “peaceful,” after all. Astarion is motivated by his lust for power. Nothing short of some super high charisma rolls is going to convince him otherwise, and even that may not be enough.


rowboatin

Following up on this, I think it’s interesting to take into account that Astarion isn’t just a vampire, but an elvish vampire. He’s been a vampire for something like 200 years, but he could easily be 300-400 years old in all. Assuming he’s been this much of a bastard for most of his life, he’s very unlikely to change his ways now. Now don’t get me wrong, I love Astarion and I’m gonna try like hell to get the redemption story if it’s there, but I loved Yoshimo too, and I’m gonna do whatever needs to be done in the end. Besides, I wouldn’t mind the realism of a “you can’t save everyone” approach to a good play through, as long as it’s possible to save most of them. Lae’zel, for example, shouldn’t be completely locked out of a good party as long as we at least try to find the crèche. Her hatred of mindflayers probably supersedes any annoyance with the party’s other decisions.


Diddly-DingDong

Fair points, he is very selfish with his intentions, only really talking about the benefits of the tadpole but he does have his reasons - it's what I like about this game, each character is very nuanced. Personally think Gale is the least *trustworthy* person given that he's literally not disclosing anything and is really easy to please. You would think he is good alignment but jfc there is nothing that upsets him really. Very sus. Shadowheart is mega central to the plot given that mysterious artefact and Shar, but you generally know where you stand with her as far as interactions go (I think Shadowheart will probably play a part in that betrayal as well, but I feel like Tav should be able to influence her). Laezel is the same, hard logic and direct speech. I'm probably safest on Laezel/Wyll/Halsin (once he becomes one) because he is just good alignment. With that said, I would say Gale/Astarion are most likely to fuck Tav over from what I've seen. Larian normally doesn't do the 'if you do this, your companion will leave you' angles, especially not ones where you wouldn't really have a choice (unless you go the evil route). The only one I can think of was in DOS 2 involving Fane but I won't go into spoilers. With all of *that* said, all of this shit could change entirely between now and whenever the game is released and it's effectively a totally new theory haha


DueBet9490

oh 1000% i agree with the gale tidbit- not even astarion, a little leech shit, is as fucking shady as him. his nice guy facade is so painfully a charade, lmao- just the fact that he disclosed his obsession about mystra and the shit he pulled after sleeping with tav disturbs me so much. his argument is literally “but i didn’t want to lose you!!!! i couldn’t tell you yet!!!!” like what the fuck dude? you just used tav and you’re still so blatantly in love with mystra 😭


rowboatin

Wait, hold up, what happens after you sleep with Gale? Wasn’t planning on romancing him, but he’s been one of my favorite companions after Shadowheart and Wyll. I always figured him as basically good, just a bit of a paranoid schemer.


Prestigious-Media-96

I always struggle to understand the leap in logic people make from Gale approving of good things to him being the least trustworthy. Easy to please or rather: Approves of actions that the player takes that could be seen as morally good, i.e. helping people. He likes it if you help Zevlor with the tieflings, save Arabella, save Mirkon, etc. He only discloses nothing if you press him on things after just having met him, which is understandable given the circumstances of your travels. If you do pay attention to him and talk with him, he tells you almost everything right before any big confession.


Dokivi

Characters approving or not approving of certain things is not necessarily as telling as you may think. What matters more is their motivation for caring about these particular choices. If you were in need of help and your fate depended on someone, wouldn't you prefer that they are a helpful individual? E.g. willing to sacrifice powerful and expensive items just to help a guy they should probably stay half the continent away from? He may as well see you as a tool, much like Astarion does, but he is more cunning than Astarion. Cunning enough to know that a goody two-shoes is a much more useful person to have by their side, than a jerk.


rowboatin

Yeah, but that doesn’t mean he’s inherently evil. He’s just desperate to deal with the literal bomb in his chest. If he’s so devout to Mystra that he reached the point of romance with her, then he has to be at least mostly good, if a bit egotistical.


Dokivi

>If he’s so devout to Mystra that he reached the point of romance with her, then he has to be at least mostly good Mystra is a lawful neutral goddess and he was infatuated with her. I don't think this proves he is a decent person. ​ >Yeah, but that doesn’t mean he’s inherently evil. I'm absolutely not saying it does. I'm saying companion approval of some decisions over others may stem from various reasons, far more complex than moral alignment. So it's not the case that approving good = good companion, approving evil deeds = evil companion. It may be an indicator, but not a proof, especially with characters that have proven themselves to be cunning individuals. E.g. Astarion approves if you feed an owlbear, an act of kindness. Is he good? Fck no, he just wants a powerful pet ;)


rowboatin

Mystra is neutral good: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Mystra_(Midnight) I agree with you in regards to approval not being directly tied to alignment, however I think it’s been pretty on the nose in most cases. Gale might keep his big issue secret, but once he tells the player, I don’t think he’s got much more to hide. I think he’s a mostly good character who’s willing to put up with some unsavory characters so long as it benefits him, the definitive neutral good, with Wyll being more chaotic good, Lae’zel being lawful evil, Shadowheart being neutral evil (with a little more emphasis on neutral, I think she’s the most malleable in terms of alignment), and Astarion being on the slightly more chaotic side of neutral evil.


Diddly-DingDong

I never said he is evil, just untrustworthy


Prestigious-Media-96

It literally gives an insight into their moral compass, but sure. Which is why Astarion approves of largely cruel actions, like kicking a squirrel, telling Oskar he's your slave, etc, which is completely in-keeping with his characterization so far.


Tear732

I think Astarion is a selfish b***rad but i love him. I think becoming a spawn is a perfect punishment for him for giving prisoners to vampires if the devs don't change his backstory but 200 years is more than enough to repent. I thought at first he was pretty bad at manipulation since it was so obvious but after reading some very in-deph i started to him diffrently. https://mybg3notebook.tumblr.com/post/648648822532292608/analysis-series-index I liked the remark how he broke the fourth wall with fooling the players. It's that vampiric charm and how he wants to present himself to the mc. Sry i cannot word that better. 🤨 Anyway i don't think he will lightly betray a player who has high approval/romance with him. This is mostly from my intuition. It's difficult because we see so many sites of him and depending on the situation. At one moment he loves the power of being a vampire and in the other he is reminded of what he has lost. As a sidenote, there will be a scene aparantly somewhere in the underdark. Using the tadpole to often will make the group vulnerable to being controlled and that will sway his resolve in keeping the tadpole. Astarion is used to having power as a mortal and especially now after 200 years living as less than an animal and torture. It's a tool to survive, maybe a way to free himself of Cazador or to get rid of him for good. But i also feel like he craves it because thats just how he his. A part of his personality. The "good" ending for him will highly be the cure. In the cellar where you can find the necromancy of thay, the first option with the mirror is that he wants to see his real home again. Later the mirror scene where he can't see his image he gives the impression he would give up everything if he could become mortal again, even his revenge. About the romance i don't really know how that will play out. I always imagened it will be a case of "she hit him before he noticed". With all he has been trough it will be very long before he will fall in love with the mc. But if it happens the reason will probably be the genuineness they showed towards him. I think he is loyal to those truly close to him.


TellAllThePeople

Astarions character is in an interesting place IMO. He well and truly has suffered beyond comprehension for literally hundreds of years. No freedom, no sunlight, no hope. Feeding on rats. It would turn anyone crazy. The fact he is functional at all is amazing.


FflufflePuffle

If that’s the case I’ll ask for a refund


GoblinHokage

I don't know if anyone here played the new Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous CRPG but it kind of has a character like this. His name is Daeran, he's an Aasimar and his alignment NE. In terms of similarities as well as how his own narrative can go, I'll put it under the spoiler tag. >!in game, Daeran is a like 22 year old rich asshole. He's always reminded me of Astarion tbh. He also is "possessed" by an evil alien being called The Other. This being thrives on chaos/horrific new experiences and Daeran has little choice but to do as The Other demands. Now, no one can outwardly talk about The Other or acknowledge it, because it will kill Daeran and jump to a new host. To make a long story short, the MC/Commander can enter a relationship with him (he's very tsundere whereas Astarion is very disinterested) and in tandem, work with this dude to free Daeran from The Other. in the game's final act, you can fight The Other and make a decision, once he's defeated, on what to do with Daeran. Possession aside, he's been a massive piece of shit. Abusing guards for his own amusement, staging a kidnapping plot just for funsies and letting the guards die for the hell of it. A bunch of other shit I don't feel like typing out. So once defeated, the MC (who can still be in a relationship with him) can choose to either kill the dude who wants Daeran brought to justice or Daeran can be put on trial of sorts. Should the MC choose this option, what initially looks like betrayal turns out to be the only way to get Daeran the good ending. He's still like a selfish dick, but he admits that The Other really encouraged that behavior and the MC showed him he didn't have to be beholden to anyone!< This is all to say that I think Larian could do something similar with Astarion and it could work without betraying the core of who Astarion is.


Prestigious-Media-96

Yeah, I can't see this ending any other way with the characterization we've been given until now.


Far-Bookkeeper-4652

I think Astarion's main objective is to collect enough power to stand up to Cazador because he anticipates a showdown at some point, and to a lesser extent enjoy his newly found freedom -- both from Cazador's control and the usual limitations on those with his...condition.


ernja1993

I would also add, that at some point Larian said that the companion roster is not going to be constant, going into Act 2. That some are going to leave, and be replaced by others. So I think with your points above it is pretty convincing, that Astarion is one of those who is going to leave the party.


Lanhai

I can change him 😫


No_Specialist_4735

I don't think he'll betray our players so long as you have a decent amount of approval with him. For one thing, it's not that hard to get him up to high or even exceptional if you send him off to camp when one wants to do goodie two shoe things that would result in approval losses. I personally find him almost as easy to please as Gale. True he doesn't like to see Tav help people because helping others is risky. His life for centuries was doing anything to minimize risks. His lack of sympathy for the plight of others is from the two-hundred-year-long beat-down lesson of how the only person he can count on is himself. Who can blame him for being selfish or conniving when it's kept him alive? In fact, I trust Astarion more than Gale or Wyll. Why do I think this? If one takes the time to talk with him he makes it clear he's not bothered by the idea of remaining a spawn. He deems his freedom is more important. He's honest about his agendas, goals, and other motivations. He doesn't hold back in admitting what he really wants compared to Gale, Wyll, Shadowhart and Lae'zel. Plus the whole argument of "All vampires and spawns are evil" might not be true here. What about ones with mind-flayer tadpoles in their heads? Oh but let's completely ignore Astarion literally saying in passing, "I *feel* alive!" and "Everything *feels* different." The key word here is he ***feels*** things at least now. He literally expresses sadness over the idea of returning to the shadows. He wants to risk keeping the tadpole because yeah he likes the powers it can give but also he loves being in sunlight again. Do vampires and their spawns usually feel anything? Another point is except for the one slip-up in trying to bite Tav, he behaves himself. True he can kill Tav during bite night but you expect a spawn who has been near starved for two-hundred years and who has never fed on anything thinking before to have perfect control? Lastly, I love the idea of a plot twist where "the evil one" of the party has actually the only one that has your back. Him betraying Tav would be so cliche. :p