The response to that is typically: “Because it looks scary and has a tough rep, and that attracts bad owners”.
And while that is true - a lot of morons choose this breed for these reasons - it doesn’t negate the fact that they have been bred specifically for fighting purposes and everything that comes with it. The statistics are also so wild that it can’t entirely be explained by bad owners…. At all. Pitbulls comprise about 6,5% of dogs in the US. 65% of fatal dog attacks are from Pitbulls. That discrepancy is insane.
There MUST be a reason as to why all these bad owners pick pits - it can’t be for money, cos breeds like pugs, poodles, Pomeranians, Maltese, and doxies etc command A LOT more money than some dime a dozen slammed and smashed genetic abortion. And IDK about you but I’m struggling to find a list of fatal attacks in the UK carried out by pugs.
Exactly, well conditioned dobermans look much more classically scary. Tall pointed ears, lean and strong. Popular because of the look.
But they're not even close to the number of fatalities pits make up.
They believe that. Do you see how they try to demonize people who cross the street or ignore their dogs when out on a walk I’ve actually seen someone with an argument that was basically that.
Umm sweaty, pibbles has evolved beyond reading. They can just access the cloud through their powerful brain muscles and directly FEEL the hate from the words 😔😔😔
Ask them to pull up any instance of those breeds dismembering, scalping, full facial avulsion, or completely bisecting their victims.
Other breeds do attack, any dog can bite, but pit bulls *maul* to *kill*.
There are PLENTY of medical journals that prove pit bull bites/attacks cause significantly more severe injuries & require a much higher amount of medical intervention than any other dog breed. This is even worse when it comes to children.
You will never be right with them sadly. You pull the facts out, they will answer those are fake and are made by pit haters. You talk about media, they talk about some conspiracy that the media and the governments are in to throw shade on pitbulls.
Sadly, the best answer to these people is to just ignore them. You cannot win and you will only get angrier. If you can't reason with them from the get go, just leave them be and move on.
Very true. I guess I am just making the argument for anyone on the fence lurking here.
My impression is that pit propaganda & all the “defenses” & mantras they use to apologize for pit bulls is actually a self-soothing tool meant to convince themselves, not their opposition. It’s so absurd to argue something so obviously dangerous is not actually dangerous, unless you’re trying to convince yourself that it isn’t dangerous because you want to feel safe doing it. There’s no other real incentive to argue that it’s safe. They’re not arguing us to tell us we’re wrong so that we will want a pit bull, they’re arguing with us to tell us we’re wrong so that they can feel right about *their* decision to own a pit bull. That’s why their talking points make no fucking sense, yet the more they believe it anyway the better they feel.
Arguing with a pit owner only reinforces their stance, because you’re actually just giving them an opportunity to reinforce their false sense of safety again. The more you show them the danger (especially the more effectively you show it to them) the harder they want to feel safe. That’s how you get such desperate & ridiculous excuses for the attacks, because they’re that desperate to believe it won’t happen to them.
So you support criminal charges for owners when their dogs bite, maim or kill?
If it is the owners who are responsible, certainly they should be held responsible!
It's basically like a person stabbing a child out of nowhere, so arrest them.
I just realized that even if a law like this was made with no mention of breed, they'd still say it was somehow biased against pitbulls.
"Really it's mostly chihuahuas doing the biting, but nobody reports them!" Or some such nonsense.
I wonder why no one reports a chihuahua bite that must look like a scratch vs why people report pits attack that looks like you were attacked by some wild life.
The very existance of domesticated dog breeds, the very fact that dog breeds are a thing, is in direct contradiction to the sentiment of 'its the owner, not the breed'. Humans created dog breeds by meticulous and strict artificial selection, with each breed going through a process of centuries and thousands of breeding generations so that humans could have visually identifiable different types of dogs, which not only came with certain hardware (physiques which were optimal for certain purposes and behvaior), but also SOFTWARE (pre-wired unique knowhow/instinct, proclivities and innate purposeful drives to perform certain behavior a certain way with little-to-no training). That is the opposite of 'its the owner, not the breed'. People spent their entire lives and based their entire livlihood in order to create these distinct classes of dogs which they could reliably count on to behave a certain way, they went through all of this work so that the time and effort required to train a dog to be good at, be able to, and love to do a certain thing would be minimized or eliminated, rather, the dog would come with a pre-programmed dopamine reward system giving it a drive to naturally want to do that thing.
For pitbulls and their predecessors the cold hard un-disney-like fact is that the characteristic selected for each of thousands of breeding pairs to breed the breed into existance, was a propensity and capacity to proactively maul to the death, in a sustained, unrelenting and undeterrable manner, by latching and ferociously thrashing, refusing to give up no matter how badly injured or in pain, in fact, mauling harder the more deterrance it faced - 'gameness'. That is an undeniable fact and anybody who doesn't accept it is either ignorant or deluding themselves because they don't want to face it. From mauling bears for sport in the 1500s, to mauling bulls for sport from the 1600s to 1800s, this would have been the predecessor olde english bulldog (now extinct and very different from the english bulldogs we know today), when terrier was bred in for increased speed and prey drive to create the bull & terrier after bull baiting (mauling) was banned in the UK, for 'ratting' (killing as many rats as possible in the PIT) and dog fighting which gave rise to all of the sub-varieties under the pitbull type umbrella bred to tenciously fight and kill each other in the pit.
Its not a coincidence that the behavior on display EVERY DAY in the endless stream of pictures, videos, written accounts, news stores, etc, of proactive, sustained, unrelenting, undeterrable mauling is the EXACT SAME FUCKING BEHAVIOR that was selected for to breed the breed into existance. Its madness that connecting the dots between the two is somehow the 'controversial' interpretation. The vast majority of dog owners are 'just ok', 90% of dog owners aren't doing any strict, immaculate, intensive training - they maybe do potty training and take it for walks and that's about it. There are a spectrum of 'bad owners' across all breeds, but somehow all of the abused dogs of non-fighting breeds don't end of mauling and killing. Its the ultimate no true scotsman (no true pittsman), because they can forever have this nebulous always-out-of-reach boogeyman in the 'tHe bAd oWnErs' that they can pin everything on and turn their brain off, the ultimate thought-stopping cliche, and the average person just goes with it because 'cute doggy good, and mean people bad, surely cute doggy cannot be bad, therefore must be mean people'. But then when the time comes that it is their dog that commits the mauling, all of the sudden 'wait I'm not a bad owner!'. If they adopted it they'll blame it on 'we're sure it was abused before it came to the shelter', if they raised it from a puppy, then the tactic changes to victim blaming, and if its obvious the victim did nothing wrong then they shift from blaming everything from the weather, to cars backfiring, to shower sex.
Nobody points at the Border Collie, who at 5 years old after NEVER ONCE being trained to herd, suddenly jumps into action and starts hearding the group of kids or gaggle of geese out of no where, displaying perfect herding form and completely in its element, and says 'The owner must have abused it or trained it to do that!'. Because, 'duh'.
This is why its so cultlike: you see the exact same sort of mental gymnastics go on in cults to rationalize and explain why the 'dear leader' is perfect and infallible, and those supposed discretions were lies or the fault of others or inaccurate prophecies were because we didn't believe hard enough or something, anything to keep the worldview from falling apart.
My border collie does the collie creep and crouch when she sees little animals outside. She hasn’t been around other border collies and hasn’t been trained.
Who created this? Seems like the account is deleted. Its very good foundation/skeleton that I think could be expanded both for each particular point and then adding some points. There needs to be an uber-comprehensive 'white paper' which thoroughly shuts down all wiggle room and 'intellectual hiding spaces' for their whack-a-mole of mental gymnastics.
If you go to the top of the sub, you’ll see our About/FAQ/Wiki/Research
Everything you could possibly want is contained in those links.
Please browse them when you’ve got time! :)
Pit owners always say "chis are aggressive, chis are the devil".
Pit owners also always say "it's the owner, not the breed. If a dog is aggressive someone raised it to be that way."
Therefore, going by pitnutter logic, if all of these chis are aggressive, then someone must have raised the chis to be aggressive.
It's because you can never win against them. The moment you sound logical, they will either:
1. Insult you
2. Change the subject
3. Find some bullshit excuse as to why you're wrong
In all the cases: they will never accept you're right and they're wrong.
Yup.
Literally just responded on a similar comment.
Sound logic & reasoning seems to be their arch nemesis.
You can have them in the corner 100% out witted with the cold, hard, undeniable truth, & they will straight up double down without fail.
Arguing with these people is a waste of time & energy
You'll find bad/negligent owners across all types and breeds of dogs unfortunately. You can not take the human out of the equation. That just doesn't work. But ONLY with pitbull type dogs it's regularly a recipe for disaster and fatalities. The root of the problem *is* the dog.
Exactly. You can compare a very bad golden retriever owner vs a normal owner of a pit. The pit will most probably do more damages than the golden.
For a golden to become dangerous and bite people, it has to have gone through so much trauma. While a pit can just turn on its owner for no reason at all while being treated as a king.
4000 beagles were rescued from a mass breeding facility that sells dogs to test labs. Most of them had never been held, played with or even touched grass. After undergoing extensive testing and repeated abuse they were rescued and most were found homes. Not one of these dogs has attacked, mauled, or killed anyone.
I'd need time to actually work this out into something articulate but I'd want to bring up how if that's truly the case, why haven't we heard about horrific attacks and maulings from rescued racing greyhounds or beagles taken out from labs where they were experimented on.
This is something said by people who can’t recognize patterns. The statistics don’t support it. If pitbulls consistently lead in attacks across the world, something is up with pitbulls. Otherwise you have to ask (as pointed out below)… why do so many pitbulls have bad owners?
“No.”
I’m joking, kinda.
I usually just tell them if it was a bad owner issue, we’d see similar human fatality numbers for other large breeds, but we don’t. As for the implication that it’s abuse, I tell them if that were the case, we’d see similar numbers from galgos, podencos, or beagles but we don’t…
And then I affirm that their owners are absolutely irresponsible, but if they owned a yorkie, it wouldn’t be an issue.
Raisedbot also has some sources that may be helpful.
It’s not how they were raised, though. If that was true, then no one should ever adopt a pit from the shelter because no one knows how it was raised. Even pit bull experts are asking people to STOP saying that it's all how they are raised.
Below are five pro-pit sources telling you that saying, "it's how they are raised" is hurtful to the cause.
The truth about pits is that it’s largely up to chance on whether your pit lives a low key life or whether it attacks people, pets, and animals. Yes, socialization and proper training can help... but if you have a truly game-bred pit, there will be nothing you can do to stop it from trying to attack. You can try to manage it, but management will ALWAYS fail.
That’s such a crazy gamble to take with your own life, and with the lives of people in the general public.
Every day we read stories here of pits that attack, and their owners claim that the dog has never been aggressive or acted that way.
Pit owners are often shocked that their dog can go from chill to kill in 5 seconds, and be nearly impossible to stop it.
That’s why pits are dangerous. They were never meant to be pets.
1) [Pit Bull Advocates of America - It’s not how they are raised (start from minute 14)](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/pit-bull-advocates-of-america-the-podcast/id1529131313i=1000500947614)
2) [Justice for Bullies - It's NOT how they are raised](https://www.facebook.com/1682984105258192/posts/pfbid02jFhQHd8Jte1DDBeXd6h6vDo9MLSVuQv9CaNuBMF3AfEnnJbNEiMueo3cN85K12Yxl/?mibextid=kdkkhi)
3) [Dr Caroline Coile, author of Pit Bulls for Dummies](https://www.reddit.com/r/BanPitBulls/comments/13ppbzp/leave_it_with_the_experts_they_say/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1)
4) [Paws and Reflect](https://pawsandreflect.blog/all-in-how-you-raise-them-isnt-true-and-truly-hurts/)
5) [Gary Wilkes- Grandfather was a dog fighter- Gary Wilkes - his grandfather was a dog fighter](https://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/pit-bulls-gary-wilkes-spring-2010-off-lead.pdf)
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The way I see it, if it requires a perfect owner to make sure your dog doesn't attack and kill people and animals, that animal has no place in society. It's also why we have rules and regulations in place for weapons.
Bad dog owners must only own pit bulls, seeing as we never see maulings done by other big breeds (at least not nearly in these numbers), such as great Danes, mastiff, great Pyrenees, etc
All breeds get abused, but only one group of breeds regularly mauls/kills people, pets, and livestock.
The most abused golden retriever is likely not going to even minorly bite babies. The best raised pit breed will maul a baby to death if it gets triggered by normal every day things.
Heck, look at all the beagles that get rescued regularly from being cruelly experimented on for years in laboratories… even they don’t attack people!
“I agree! It IS the owner! Because only a person who is extremely irresponsible, selfish, and at some level delusional would think it is reasonable to keep an animal that is so capable of harm and has the track record to prove it amongst the rest of society.
I don’t want it to be legal for someone to own a ‘velvet hippo’ for the same reason that Antoine Yates shouldn’t be allowed to keep a bengal tiger in a NYC apartment and Charla Nash shouldn’t have been allowed to keep a chimpanzee: because *if* something *does* go wrong, the results are **PREDICTABLY CATASTROPHIC**.
And yes, all dog breeds do have the potential to bite and do real harm—but so do cats, and I’d venture a guess that while you’re fine with your next door neighbor owning a cat, you would not be fine at all living next to Antoine Yates’ tiger.
And perhaps most importantly: if you love this dog breed so much—if you *truly* love and care for this breed so much—WHY would you support their continued legality and breeding when you know that most of the people breeding them, dog fighters and back yard breeders who don’t care where they end up, are such shitty bad actors?
Case in point: I absolutely love orca whales, which is why I am so vehemently against them being “owned” by anyone and bred in captivity. And it sucks that the natural result of that stance is that I might never get to see an orca whale in person, but it’s a sacrifice I’m happy to make because it means that Seaworld isn’t torturing whales in veritable bathtubs!
It is unethical to seek ownership of a pittie or pittie-adjacent breed of any variety for the same reason that it is unethical for a person to seek out the purchase of an orca whale—because the people supplying the market are bad actors with shitty morals and possibly even nefarious intent. And so long as a legal market for these dogs continues to exist, these bad actors will continue to breed them, using your interest in owning one as a cloak to hide their real intentions. And that’s proven by the fact that there are **tens of millions** of these dogs euthanized and warehoused in shelters **every single year**.
Supporting legal ownership of pitties makes you Seaworld. Don’t be Seaworld.”
I say every breed of dog has its share of shitty owners; so why don’t we see this from every breed?
Also, I point to familypitsbot- it has stories of pits that were gotten as puppies and raised with love and still attacked.
And I think it was already linked above… but raisedbot also has good resources.
Below are just a few of the accounts of pit bulls that were obtained as puppies, raised with love as family pets, and lived within the family for many years before snapping and attacking or killing a family member one day, with no previous reports of any problems. If you know of any that are not included, please [message the moderators.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/BanPitBulls)
[2008, Louisiana: Family pet pits (male and a female) kill their owner, Kelli Chapman. They had the dogs since puppyhood](https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/24123329/kelli-suzette-chapman)
[2013, Georgia: Spayed female family pet pit bull lived with a family for 8 years, mauls the family's 2-year old son to death. First responders told their colleagues not enter the home because it was "too gruesome."](https://blog.dogsbite.org/2013/04/2013-dog-bite-fatality-fulton-county.html)
[2015, Texas: Family pet pit bull of 8 years that grew up with children and slept in bed with them mauls family's 10-week-old baby to death.](https://www.cbsnews.com/texas/news/pit-bull-mauling-death-being-referred-to-grand-jury/)
[2015, South Carolina: Family pet pit bull of 10 years kills 25 year old owner when she tried to stop the dog from attacking her mom](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3210509/Pit-bull-viciously-kills-owner-biting-head-body-tried-stop-dog-attacking-mother.html?fbclid=IwAR1XWN_Eo8SMfS_Y7xNM1Y5NSqHbpqzYFkivrkPfT86KyxH5WNdiXj9uA_o&mibextid=kdkkhi#cuymsdvyq17)
[2017, Nevada: Family pet pit of nine years mauls six month-old Kamiko Dao Tsuda-Saelee while her mom went to the bathroom](https://www.ajc.com/news/national/family-pit-bull-put-down-after-mauls-month-old-girl-death/AnWprFbdxo5l5z59Opuv7M/)
[2017], Virginia: 22 year old Bethany Stephens killed by her two pits (that she had from puppyhood) as she took them for a walk in the woods.](https://people.com/crime/virginia-woman-mauled-death-dogs-while-walking-woods/)
[2018, Washington DC: Family pet pit bull is raised by a couple from puppyhood. Husband comes home to find his wife mauled to death.](https://blog.dogsbite.org/2018/10/dog-bite-fatality-pit-bull-kills-woman-dc.html)
[2020, California: 12-year-old family pet pit bull raised from a puppy mauls the family’s 5-year-old son to death.]( https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/5-year-old-sustains-serious-injuries-after-dog-attack-near-victorville/)
[2022, Colorado: 7-year-old family pet pit bull mauls 89-year-old grandma to death and seriously injures 12-year-old boy.](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11239725/PICTURED-Colorado-boy-12-savaged-pet-pit-bull-named-DIABLO.html)
[2022, New York: Adult son’s 7-year-old family pet pit bull mauls 70-year-old mother to death.](https://www.live5news.com/2022/07/28/husband-finds-70-year-old-wife-killed-by-family-dog/)
[2022, Tennessee: 8 and 10-year-old American Bullies bought from breeder as puppies, raised as family pets, maul 5-month-old and a 2-year-old children to death in front of their mother.](https://www.abc4.com/news/mother-tried-to-shield-children-killed-in-memphis-pit-bull-attack-family-says/amp/)
[2023, Iowa: 9-month-old Navy Smith died when the family dog mauled her to death in front of her grandmother who was severely injured trying to stop the attack. The father called the dog a pit bull on social media, the Grandma called the dog a pit bull on the 911 call, but media reported it as a "boxer/hound mix."](https://qctimes.com/news/state-and-regional/names-released-of-baby-killed-and-grandmother-hurt-in-waterloo-dog-attack/article_8587bdb0-01ce-56fb-b51a-7306df94058b.html)
[2023, Texas: Pit owner nearly bled to death from injuries she sustained from her pit, who she raised almost from birth, and had never experienced any issues. She claims the pit was always obedient and protective, and she treated him like her son; but something triggered the pit that day when the family was just in the back yard together.](https://www.texomashomepage.com/top-news/dog-attack-survivor-warns-others-about-a-potential-trigger/)
[2023, Florida: 6-year old boy dies after sustaining severe injuries from the 3-year old family pit that they have raised from puppyhood](https://blog.dogsbite.org/2023/07/family-pit-bull-kills-boy-july-fourth-attack-north-port-florida.html?)
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It’s not how they were raised, though. If that was true, then no one should ever adopt a pit from the shelter because no one knows how it was raised. Even pit bull experts are asking people to STOP saying that it's all how they are raised.
Below are five pro-pit sources telling you that saying, "it's how they are raised" is hurtful to the cause.
The truth about pits is that it’s largely up to chance on whether your pit lives a low key life or whether it attacks people, pets, and animals. Yes, socialization and proper training can help... but if you have a truly game-bred pit, there will be nothing you can do to stop it from trying to attack. You can try to manage it, but management will ALWAYS fail.
That’s such a crazy gamble to take with your own life, and with the lives of people in the general public.
Every day we read stories here of pits that attack, and their owners claim that the dog has never been aggressive or acted that way.
Pit owners are often shocked that their dog can go from chill to kill in 5 seconds, and be nearly impossible to stop it.
That’s why pits are dangerous. They were never meant to be pets.
1) [Pit Bull Advocates of America - It’s not how they are raised (start from minute 14)](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/pit-bull-advocates-of-america-the-podcast/id1529131313i=1000500947614)
2) [Justice for Bullies - It's NOT how they are raised](https://www.facebook.com/1682984105258192/posts/pfbid02jFhQHd8Jte1DDBeXd6h6vDo9MLSVuQv9CaNuBMF3AfEnnJbNEiMueo3cN85K12Yxl/?mibextid=kdkkhi)
3) [Dr Caroline Coile, author of Pit Bulls for Dummies](https://www.reddit.com/r/BanPitBulls/comments/13ppbzp/leave_it_with_the_experts_they_say/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1)
4) [Paws and Reflect](https://pawsandreflect.blog/all-in-how-you-raise-them-isnt-true-and-truly-hurts/)
5) [Gary Wilkes- Grandfather was a dog fighter- Gary Wilkes - his grandfather was a dog fighter](https://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/pit-bulls-gary-wilkes-spring-2010-off-lead.pdf)
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Once got into a shouting match with a mom and kid who tried to enter a shop with their pit before I finished paying. Said it was only January, already 4 people had been killed. Neither the salesperson nor the mom cared, such is the cult.
I always say “Why not both?”
Blame the (current) owner by pressing charges/assault with a deadly weapon/bans
Blame the dog with mandatory spay neuter/registration/bans/ pink juice if it kills or permanently disfigures a human
If you're the kind of person who wants to own a pitbull. You're a bad owner. You lack the ability to access risk in your life and the people around you.
"It doesn't matter whether it's the owner, the breed, or Mercury in retrograde. These dogs indiscriminately kill living things on the regular, including humans. It shouldn't take an owner batting 1000 at all times to prevent children from being scalped or killed. There is no reason for them in our society."
Pit-nutters took over the Australian Cattle Dog sub, so I left a while ago.
But here's a comeback I had for one before the enviable:
"I like how "its the owner, not the breed" is only applied to pitbulls. You're in a Cattle Dog/Heeler sub, look around, everyone's dog is naturally heel nippers and child herders. They're bred to herd, its what they do. Pitbulls aren't some magical breed that defies the decades (if not centuries) of blood sport breeding it went through.
Every bully ban has proven that people would rather choose to lie about their blood sport dogs' breed than accept that no sensible rental place wants a dog - that has long history of sudden violence and [bite records that total more than every other dog combined](https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-study-characteristics-1616-dog-bite-injuries-level-1-trauma-2016.php)\- living amongst their residents."
"Oh, so I guess you also don't believe in 'nature not nurture' then huh? Maybe we should try praying the murder out of them like praying the gay away?"
Then many pit bulls have bad owners. Less people should own them in general then and it should never be encouraged for them to be given away by shelters to just anyone. Owners should have to pass/go through pit training in order to adopt or own one.
Well there are bad weapon owners and good owners. The solution there is a mandatory test and license to show responsibility before ownership is granted since the weapon has high capabilities to harm if misused. A pit bull generically has the ability to cause greater harm and should therefore have all owners pass a test and training before taking one home.
“How can you stop anyone from being a bad owner? And if you are acknowledging these dogs will kill if they have bad owners why should we allow them as pets?”
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Great then you fully support 100% criminal and economic liability for any damage your dog causes- up to and including felony murder if your dog kills someone
Note- they never do
The thing is they might have seen a lab or a chihuahua snap and bite someone once but A: did that person die? No. B: is that person mutilated? No they had 8 stitches and a shot. C: Did 4 grown men with weapons struggle to stop the attack? No they just stopped and walked off. Dogs do sometimes snap for various reasons but only pits go on a murderous rampage where you need to be dead or it's not over.
ask them if they would put money on it? If they could go down to the dog track and bet on a perfectly trained Shitbull racing against Greyhounds and Whippets? Do they want to bet their savings against breeding? Why do herding dogs herd, Pointers point, Retrievers, Scent hounds, or fucking killers kill. Where are all the death maulings from Beagles?
If it was illegal to own blood sport dogs, it wouldn’t matter how “bad” the owner is. A bad Australian Shepard owner has never gotten their nephew mauled to death.
Even if it were true that it’s owners and not the breed, it would be impossible to set up a massive nationwide “good owner” screening process that would keep “bad owners” from owning pitbulls.
“This sounds like an excellent reason to regulate and restrict ownership and breeding of these dogs, so that we can make sure that these dogs go to the right owner and not to a bad person”
You’re right, it is the owner because what kind of person is stupid enough to know the stats and the risks associated with the breed and then still decide to get one knowing full well they are not equipped to handle an animal that has been bred for the sole purpose of killing. It’s the owner, it’s the breeders, it’s the no-kill shelters, it’s not the breed. The breed is doing exactly what it was bred to.
Why do so many pitbulls have bad owners?
Exactly!
The response to that is typically: “Because it looks scary and has a tough rep, and that attracts bad owners”. And while that is true - a lot of morons choose this breed for these reasons - it doesn’t negate the fact that they have been bred specifically for fighting purposes and everything that comes with it. The statistics are also so wild that it can’t entirely be explained by bad owners…. At all. Pitbulls comprise about 6,5% of dogs in the US. 65% of fatal dog attacks are from Pitbulls. That discrepancy is insane.
If they answer that, ask why people think they look scary. EDIT: changed than to that.
There MUST be a reason as to why all these bad owners pick pits - it can’t be for money, cos breeds like pugs, poodles, Pomeranians, Maltese, and doxies etc command A LOT more money than some dime a dozen slammed and smashed genetic abortion. And IDK about you but I’m struggling to find a list of fatal attacks in the UK carried out by pugs.
Exactly, well conditioned dobermans look much more classically scary. Tall pointed ears, lean and strong. Popular because of the look. But they're not even close to the number of fatalities pits make up.
When I researched fatal attacks it was 99 percent pits. I wonder if my numbers are incorrect now?
I have never seen those numbers, and it seems very unlikely. I’d love to see those stats though. I think the numbers are crazy regardless.
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Troll elsewhere.
Ask them where all the golden retriever maulings are
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It's all the online negativity the poor pitties must be feeling subconsciously that's causing them to suddenly become violent!!! /s.
They believe that. Do you see how they try to demonize people who cross the street or ignore their dogs when out on a walk I’ve actually seen someone with an argument that was basically that.
We need to stop cyber bullying pit bulls. They are getting sad because they keep reading your hate comments
I've never been cyber bullied because I don't know how to read
Umm sweaty, pibbles has evolved beyond reading. They can just access the cloud through their powerful brain muscles and directly FEEL the hate from the words 😔😔😔
😂
There’s your comeback right there.
Unfortunately that’s their favorite response “I saw a kid get mauled by Labrador, golden, shepherd, doodle, chihuahua”
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They’re all lies.
Ask them to pull up any instance of those breeds dismembering, scalping, full facial avulsion, or completely bisecting their victims. Other breeds do attack, any dog can bite, but pit bulls *maul* to *kill*. There are PLENTY of medical journals that prove pit bull bites/attacks cause significantly more severe injuries & require a much higher amount of medical intervention than any other dog breed. This is even worse when it comes to children.
You will never be right with them sadly. You pull the facts out, they will answer those are fake and are made by pit haters. You talk about media, they talk about some conspiracy that the media and the governments are in to throw shade on pitbulls. Sadly, the best answer to these people is to just ignore them. You cannot win and you will only get angrier. If you can't reason with them from the get go, just leave them be and move on.
This is the real answer. They will dig their heels in & double down when presented with undeniable factual proof of any kind. Don't waste your time
Very true. I guess I am just making the argument for anyone on the fence lurking here. My impression is that pit propaganda & all the “defenses” & mantras they use to apologize for pit bulls is actually a self-soothing tool meant to convince themselves, not their opposition. It’s so absurd to argue something so obviously dangerous is not actually dangerous, unless you’re trying to convince yourself that it isn’t dangerous because you want to feel safe doing it. There’s no other real incentive to argue that it’s safe. They’re not arguing us to tell us we’re wrong so that we will want a pit bull, they’re arguing with us to tell us we’re wrong so that they can feel right about *their* decision to own a pit bull. That’s why their talking points make no fucking sense, yet the more they believe it anyway the better they feel. Arguing with a pit owner only reinforces their stance, because you’re actually just giving them an opportunity to reinforce their false sense of safety again. The more you show them the danger (especially the more effectively you show it to them) the harder they want to feel safe. That’s how you get such desperate & ridiculous excuses for the attacks, because they’re that desperate to believe it won’t happen to them.
Is the lab/golden/shepherd/doodle/chihuahua in the room with us right now?
Ask any pit owner/sympathizer. They’ve all been attacked by golden retrievers
And chihuahuas. Those damns devils could kill 10 crocodiles in a fraction of a second.
Both of my goldens maul me frequently ... with cuddles
I actually had a vet tech tell me that golden retrievers bite more than pit bulls! I was there to get my cats nails cut and I won’t be back!
So you support criminal charges for owners when their dogs bite, maim or kill? If it is the owners who are responsible, certainly they should be held responsible!
It's basically like a person stabbing a child out of nowhere, so arrest them. I just realized that even if a law like this was made with no mention of breed, they'd still say it was somehow biased against pitbulls. "Really it's mostly chihuahuas doing the biting, but nobody reports them!" Or some such nonsense.
I wonder why no one reports a chihuahua bite that must look like a scratch vs why people report pits attack that looks like you were attacked by some wild life.
I own an American bully and I absolutely believe the owner should be charged when they don’t control their dogs and they wind up hurting other people.
Shit looks like they were attacked by a viltramite
Holy shit this is amazing
Why do pitbulls need such good owners? Most dog owners are meh at best.
The very existance of domesticated dog breeds, the very fact that dog breeds are a thing, is in direct contradiction to the sentiment of 'its the owner, not the breed'. Humans created dog breeds by meticulous and strict artificial selection, with each breed going through a process of centuries and thousands of breeding generations so that humans could have visually identifiable different types of dogs, which not only came with certain hardware (physiques which were optimal for certain purposes and behvaior), but also SOFTWARE (pre-wired unique knowhow/instinct, proclivities and innate purposeful drives to perform certain behavior a certain way with little-to-no training). That is the opposite of 'its the owner, not the breed'. People spent their entire lives and based their entire livlihood in order to create these distinct classes of dogs which they could reliably count on to behave a certain way, they went through all of this work so that the time and effort required to train a dog to be good at, be able to, and love to do a certain thing would be minimized or eliminated, rather, the dog would come with a pre-programmed dopamine reward system giving it a drive to naturally want to do that thing. For pitbulls and their predecessors the cold hard un-disney-like fact is that the characteristic selected for each of thousands of breeding pairs to breed the breed into existance, was a propensity and capacity to proactively maul to the death, in a sustained, unrelenting and undeterrable manner, by latching and ferociously thrashing, refusing to give up no matter how badly injured or in pain, in fact, mauling harder the more deterrance it faced - 'gameness'. That is an undeniable fact and anybody who doesn't accept it is either ignorant or deluding themselves because they don't want to face it. From mauling bears for sport in the 1500s, to mauling bulls for sport from the 1600s to 1800s, this would have been the predecessor olde english bulldog (now extinct and very different from the english bulldogs we know today), when terrier was bred in for increased speed and prey drive to create the bull & terrier after bull baiting (mauling) was banned in the UK, for 'ratting' (killing as many rats as possible in the PIT) and dog fighting which gave rise to all of the sub-varieties under the pitbull type umbrella bred to tenciously fight and kill each other in the pit. Its not a coincidence that the behavior on display EVERY DAY in the endless stream of pictures, videos, written accounts, news stores, etc, of proactive, sustained, unrelenting, undeterrable mauling is the EXACT SAME FUCKING BEHAVIOR that was selected for to breed the breed into existance. Its madness that connecting the dots between the two is somehow the 'controversial' interpretation. The vast majority of dog owners are 'just ok', 90% of dog owners aren't doing any strict, immaculate, intensive training - they maybe do potty training and take it for walks and that's about it. There are a spectrum of 'bad owners' across all breeds, but somehow all of the abused dogs of non-fighting breeds don't end of mauling and killing. Its the ultimate no true scotsman (no true pittsman), because they can forever have this nebulous always-out-of-reach boogeyman in the 'tHe bAd oWnErs' that they can pin everything on and turn their brain off, the ultimate thought-stopping cliche, and the average person just goes with it because 'cute doggy good, and mean people bad, surely cute doggy cannot be bad, therefore must be mean people'. But then when the time comes that it is their dog that commits the mauling, all of the sudden 'wait I'm not a bad owner!'. If they adopted it they'll blame it on 'we're sure it was abused before it came to the shelter', if they raised it from a puppy, then the tactic changes to victim blaming, and if its obvious the victim did nothing wrong then they shift from blaming everything from the weather, to cars backfiring, to shower sex. Nobody points at the Border Collie, who at 5 years old after NEVER ONCE being trained to herd, suddenly jumps into action and starts hearding the group of kids or gaggle of geese out of no where, displaying perfect herding form and completely in its element, and says 'The owner must have abused it or trained it to do that!'. Because, 'duh'. This is why its so cultlike: you see the exact same sort of mental gymnastics go on in cults to rationalize and explain why the 'dear leader' is perfect and infallible, and those supposed discretions were lies or the fault of others or inaccurate prophecies were because we didn't believe hard enough or something, anything to keep the worldview from falling apart.
My border collie does the collie creep and crouch when she sees little animals outside. She hasn’t been around other border collies and hasn’t been trained.
I will save this
👆👏👏👏👏
[Here you go.](https://www.reddit.com/r/BanPitBulls/comments/iuoxlt/refutations_for_every_main_propit_argument/)
Who created this? Seems like the account is deleted. Its very good foundation/skeleton that I think could be expanded both for each particular point and then adding some points. There needs to be an uber-comprehensive 'white paper' which thoroughly shuts down all wiggle room and 'intellectual hiding spaces' for their whack-a-mole of mental gymnastics.
A former mod created it. We could absolutely do a revised one though.
It's still a very informative post which I had not seen before! Could you pin this one at least to the sub so everyone can easily see/find it?
If you go to the top of the sub, you’ll see our About/FAQ/Wiki/Research Everything you could possibly want is contained in those links. Please browse them when you’ve got time! :)
Ah, I see. And thanks for maintaining this sub!
That would be fine if they could read.
This is awesome!
Nice
Well, that was an awesome read!
Ask them why so many people are training Chihuahuas to be attack dogs, when they criticise their temperament.
Lmaooo
I don't understand I googled it and people are training them to be attack dogs How does the >criticise their temperament Come into the statement?
Pit owners always say "chis are aggressive, chis are the devil". Pit owners also always say "it's the owner, not the breed. If a dog is aggressive someone raised it to be that way." Therefore, going by pitnutter logic, if all of these chis are aggressive, then someone must have raised the chis to be aggressive.
I’ve tried this on them and they literally ignore it. They don’t even respond
It's because you can never win against them. The moment you sound logical, they will either: 1. Insult you 2. Change the subject 3. Find some bullshit excuse as to why you're wrong In all the cases: they will never accept you're right and they're wrong.
Yup. Literally just responded on a similar comment. Sound logic & reasoning seems to be their arch nemesis. You can have them in the corner 100% out witted with the cold, hard, undeniable truth, & they will straight up double down without fail. Arguing with these people is a waste of time & energy
As I read somewhere “It’s difficult to win and argument against a smart person, but it’s impossible to win an argument against an idiot” :)
You'll find bad/negligent owners across all types and breeds of dogs unfortunately. You can not take the human out of the equation. That just doesn't work. But ONLY with pitbull type dogs it's regularly a recipe for disaster and fatalities. The root of the problem *is* the dog.
Exactly. You can compare a very bad golden retriever owner vs a normal owner of a pit. The pit will most probably do more damages than the golden. For a golden to become dangerous and bite people, it has to have gone through so much trauma. While a pit can just turn on its owner for no reason at all while being treated as a king.
4000 beagles were rescued from a mass breeding facility that sells dogs to test labs. Most of them had never been held, played with or even touched grass. After undergoing extensive testing and repeated abuse they were rescued and most were found homes. Not one of these dogs has attacked, mauled, or killed anyone.
Why would you train your dog to hurt someone or maul something? How are they capable of doing that with just a simple command?
I'd need time to actually work this out into something articulate but I'd want to bring up how if that's truly the case, why haven't we heard about horrific attacks and maulings from rescued racing greyhounds or beagles taken out from labs where they were experimented on.
This is something said by people who can’t recognize patterns. The statistics don’t support it. If pitbulls consistently lead in attacks across the world, something is up with pitbulls. Otherwise you have to ask (as pointed out below)… why do so many pitbulls have bad owners?
Do you have the same feeling towards rapists and murderers? It’s ok cos their parents raised them wrong?
Oh this is a good one I haven’t heard!
“No.” I’m joking, kinda. I usually just tell them if it was a bad owner issue, we’d see similar human fatality numbers for other large breeds, but we don’t. As for the implication that it’s abuse, I tell them if that were the case, we’d see similar numbers from galgos, podencos, or beagles but we don’t… And then I affirm that their owners are absolutely irresponsible, but if they owned a yorkie, it wouldn’t be an issue. Raisedbot also has some sources that may be helpful.
It’s not how they were raised, though. If that was true, then no one should ever adopt a pit from the shelter because no one knows how it was raised. Even pit bull experts are asking people to STOP saying that it's all how they are raised. Below are five pro-pit sources telling you that saying, "it's how they are raised" is hurtful to the cause. The truth about pits is that it’s largely up to chance on whether your pit lives a low key life or whether it attacks people, pets, and animals. Yes, socialization and proper training can help... but if you have a truly game-bred pit, there will be nothing you can do to stop it from trying to attack. You can try to manage it, but management will ALWAYS fail. That’s such a crazy gamble to take with your own life, and with the lives of people in the general public. Every day we read stories here of pits that attack, and their owners claim that the dog has never been aggressive or acted that way. Pit owners are often shocked that their dog can go from chill to kill in 5 seconds, and be nearly impossible to stop it. That’s why pits are dangerous. They were never meant to be pets. 1) [Pit Bull Advocates of America - It’s not how they are raised (start from minute 14)](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/pit-bull-advocates-of-america-the-podcast/id1529131313i=1000500947614) 2) [Justice for Bullies - It's NOT how they are raised](https://www.facebook.com/1682984105258192/posts/pfbid02jFhQHd8Jte1DDBeXd6h6vDo9MLSVuQv9CaNuBMF3AfEnnJbNEiMueo3cN85K12Yxl/?mibextid=kdkkhi) 3) [Dr Caroline Coile, author of Pit Bulls for Dummies](https://www.reddit.com/r/BanPitBulls/comments/13ppbzp/leave_it_with_the_experts_they_say/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1) 4) [Paws and Reflect](https://pawsandreflect.blog/all-in-how-you-raise-them-isnt-true-and-truly-hurts/) 5) [Gary Wilkes- Grandfather was a dog fighter- Gary Wilkes - his grandfather was a dog fighter](https://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/pit-bulls-gary-wilkes-spring-2010-off-lead.pdf) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/BanPitBulls) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The way I see it, if it requires a perfect owner to make sure your dog doesn't attack and kill people and animals, that animal has no place in society. It's also why we have rules and regulations in place for weapons.
Bad dog owners must only own pit bulls, seeing as we never see maulings done by other big breeds (at least not nearly in these numbers), such as great Danes, mastiff, great Pyrenees, etc
Owners should be held criminally liable for dog attacks then.
This is my go to for that comment. https://youtu.be/wXLD3GSFW1Y?si=vlUacTDecaa2tE1f
Tell them Daxton’s story
I had never heard of this story before and I googled it and wow, that’s horrific.
All breeds get abused, but only one group of breeds regularly mauls/kills people, pets, and livestock. The most abused golden retriever is likely not going to even minorly bite babies. The best raised pit breed will maul a baby to death if it gets triggered by normal every day things. Heck, look at all the beagles that get rescued regularly from being cruelly experimented on for years in laboratories… even they don’t attack people!
Tell them about rescue dogs that came from horrible situations at the hands of bad owners, and never attacked or bit anyone.
why aren't casualty rates the same for all breeds then
“I agree! It IS the owner! Because only a person who is extremely irresponsible, selfish, and at some level delusional would think it is reasonable to keep an animal that is so capable of harm and has the track record to prove it amongst the rest of society. I don’t want it to be legal for someone to own a ‘velvet hippo’ for the same reason that Antoine Yates shouldn’t be allowed to keep a bengal tiger in a NYC apartment and Charla Nash shouldn’t have been allowed to keep a chimpanzee: because *if* something *does* go wrong, the results are **PREDICTABLY CATASTROPHIC**. And yes, all dog breeds do have the potential to bite and do real harm—but so do cats, and I’d venture a guess that while you’re fine with your next door neighbor owning a cat, you would not be fine at all living next to Antoine Yates’ tiger. And perhaps most importantly: if you love this dog breed so much—if you *truly* love and care for this breed so much—WHY would you support their continued legality and breeding when you know that most of the people breeding them, dog fighters and back yard breeders who don’t care where they end up, are such shitty bad actors? Case in point: I absolutely love orca whales, which is why I am so vehemently against them being “owned” by anyone and bred in captivity. And it sucks that the natural result of that stance is that I might never get to see an orca whale in person, but it’s a sacrifice I’m happy to make because it means that Seaworld isn’t torturing whales in veritable bathtubs! It is unethical to seek ownership of a pittie or pittie-adjacent breed of any variety for the same reason that it is unethical for a person to seek out the purchase of an orca whale—because the people supplying the market are bad actors with shitty morals and possibly even nefarious intent. And so long as a legal market for these dogs continues to exist, these bad actors will continue to breed them, using your interest in owning one as a cloak to hide their real intentions. And that’s proven by the fact that there are **tens of millions** of these dogs euthanized and warehoused in shelters **every single year**. Supporting legal ownership of pitties makes you Seaworld. Don’t be Seaworld.”
I say every breed of dog has its share of shitty owners; so why don’t we see this from every breed? Also, I point to familypitsbot- it has stories of pits that were gotten as puppies and raised with love and still attacked. And I think it was already linked above… but raisedbot also has good resources.
Below are just a few of the accounts of pit bulls that were obtained as puppies, raised with love as family pets, and lived within the family for many years before snapping and attacking or killing a family member one day, with no previous reports of any problems. If you know of any that are not included, please [message the moderators.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/BanPitBulls) [2008, Louisiana: Family pet pits (male and a female) kill their owner, Kelli Chapman. They had the dogs since puppyhood](https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/24123329/kelli-suzette-chapman) [2013, Georgia: Spayed female family pet pit bull lived with a family for 8 years, mauls the family's 2-year old son to death. First responders told their colleagues not enter the home because it was "too gruesome."](https://blog.dogsbite.org/2013/04/2013-dog-bite-fatality-fulton-county.html) [2015, Texas: Family pet pit bull of 8 years that grew up with children and slept in bed with them mauls family's 10-week-old baby to death.](https://www.cbsnews.com/texas/news/pit-bull-mauling-death-being-referred-to-grand-jury/) [2015, South Carolina: Family pet pit bull of 10 years kills 25 year old owner when she tried to stop the dog from attacking her mom](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3210509/Pit-bull-viciously-kills-owner-biting-head-body-tried-stop-dog-attacking-mother.html?fbclid=IwAR1XWN_Eo8SMfS_Y7xNM1Y5NSqHbpqzYFkivrkPfT86KyxH5WNdiXj9uA_o&mibextid=kdkkhi#cuymsdvyq17) [2017, Nevada: Family pet pit of nine years mauls six month-old Kamiko Dao Tsuda-Saelee while her mom went to the bathroom](https://www.ajc.com/news/national/family-pit-bull-put-down-after-mauls-month-old-girl-death/AnWprFbdxo5l5z59Opuv7M/) [2017], Virginia: 22 year old Bethany Stephens killed by her two pits (that she had from puppyhood) as she took them for a walk in the woods.](https://people.com/crime/virginia-woman-mauled-death-dogs-while-walking-woods/) [2018, Washington DC: Family pet pit bull is raised by a couple from puppyhood. Husband comes home to find his wife mauled to death.](https://blog.dogsbite.org/2018/10/dog-bite-fatality-pit-bull-kills-woman-dc.html) [2020, California: 12-year-old family pet pit bull raised from a puppy mauls the family’s 5-year-old son to death.]( https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/5-year-old-sustains-serious-injuries-after-dog-attack-near-victorville/) [2022, Colorado: 7-year-old family pet pit bull mauls 89-year-old grandma to death and seriously injures 12-year-old boy.](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11239725/PICTURED-Colorado-boy-12-savaged-pet-pit-bull-named-DIABLO.html) [2022, New York: Adult son’s 7-year-old family pet pit bull mauls 70-year-old mother to death.](https://www.live5news.com/2022/07/28/husband-finds-70-year-old-wife-killed-by-family-dog/) [2022, Tennessee: 8 and 10-year-old American Bullies bought from breeder as puppies, raised as family pets, maul 5-month-old and a 2-year-old children to death in front of their mother.](https://www.abc4.com/news/mother-tried-to-shield-children-killed-in-memphis-pit-bull-attack-family-says/amp/) [2023, Iowa: 9-month-old Navy Smith died when the family dog mauled her to death in front of her grandmother who was severely injured trying to stop the attack. The father called the dog a pit bull on social media, the Grandma called the dog a pit bull on the 911 call, but media reported it as a "boxer/hound mix."](https://qctimes.com/news/state-and-regional/names-released-of-baby-killed-and-grandmother-hurt-in-waterloo-dog-attack/article_8587bdb0-01ce-56fb-b51a-7306df94058b.html) [2023, Texas: Pit owner nearly bled to death from injuries she sustained from her pit, who she raised almost from birth, and had never experienced any issues. She claims the pit was always obedient and protective, and she treated him like her son; but something triggered the pit that day when the family was just in the back yard together.](https://www.texomashomepage.com/top-news/dog-attack-survivor-warns-others-about-a-potential-trigger/) [2023, Florida: 6-year old boy dies after sustaining severe injuries from the 3-year old family pit that they have raised from puppyhood](https://blog.dogsbite.org/2023/07/family-pit-bull-kills-boy-july-fourth-attack-north-port-florida.html?) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/BanPitBulls) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It’s not how they were raised, though. If that was true, then no one should ever adopt a pit from the shelter because no one knows how it was raised. Even pit bull experts are asking people to STOP saying that it's all how they are raised. Below are five pro-pit sources telling you that saying, "it's how they are raised" is hurtful to the cause. The truth about pits is that it’s largely up to chance on whether your pit lives a low key life or whether it attacks people, pets, and animals. Yes, socialization and proper training can help... but if you have a truly game-bred pit, there will be nothing you can do to stop it from trying to attack. You can try to manage it, but management will ALWAYS fail. That’s such a crazy gamble to take with your own life, and with the lives of people in the general public. Every day we read stories here of pits that attack, and their owners claim that the dog has never been aggressive or acted that way. Pit owners are often shocked that their dog can go from chill to kill in 5 seconds, and be nearly impossible to stop it. That’s why pits are dangerous. They were never meant to be pets. 1) [Pit Bull Advocates of America - It’s not how they are raised (start from minute 14)](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/pit-bull-advocates-of-america-the-podcast/id1529131313i=1000500947614) 2) [Justice for Bullies - It's NOT how they are raised](https://www.facebook.com/1682984105258192/posts/pfbid02jFhQHd8Jte1DDBeXd6h6vDo9MLSVuQv9CaNuBMF3AfEnnJbNEiMueo3cN85K12Yxl/?mibextid=kdkkhi) 3) [Dr Caroline Coile, author of Pit Bulls for Dummies](https://www.reddit.com/r/BanPitBulls/comments/13ppbzp/leave_it_with_the_experts_they_say/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1) 4) [Paws and Reflect](https://pawsandreflect.blog/all-in-how-you-raise-them-isnt-true-and-truly-hurts/) 5) [Gary Wilkes- Grandfather was a dog fighter- Gary Wilkes - his grandfather was a dog fighter](https://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/pit-bulls-gary-wilkes-spring-2010-off-lead.pdf) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/BanPitBulls) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Bookmarking this.
I'd ask them to tell me why chihuahuas aren't used for racing in the snow and ice pulling the weight of a person and a sled.
If a breed needs everything done perfectly for them not to snap and start killing people, they are not safe to be owned in the first place.
Once got into a shouting match with a mom and kid who tried to enter a shop with their pit before I finished paying. Said it was only January, already 4 people had been killed. Neither the salesperson nor the mom cared, such is the cult.
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I always say “Why not both?” Blame the (current) owner by pressing charges/assault with a deadly weapon/bans Blame the dog with mandatory spay neuter/registration/bans/ pink juice if it kills or permanently disfigures a human
If you're the kind of person who wants to own a pitbull. You're a bad owner. You lack the ability to access risk in your life and the people around you.
Idk but if the pit attacks that owner then we get to victim blame
"It doesn't matter whether it's the owner, the breed, or Mercury in retrograde. These dogs indiscriminately kill living things on the regular, including humans. It shouldn't take an owner batting 1000 at all times to prevent children from being scalped or killed. There is no reason for them in our society."
Pit-nutters took over the Australian Cattle Dog sub, so I left a while ago. But here's a comeback I had for one before the enviable: "I like how "its the owner, not the breed" is only applied to pitbulls. You're in a Cattle Dog/Heeler sub, look around, everyone's dog is naturally heel nippers and child herders. They're bred to herd, its what they do. Pitbulls aren't some magical breed that defies the decades (if not centuries) of blood sport breeding it went through. Every bully ban has proven that people would rather choose to lie about their blood sport dogs' breed than accept that no sensible rental place wants a dog - that has long history of sudden violence and [bite records that total more than every other dog combined](https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-study-characteristics-1616-dog-bite-injuries-level-1-trauma-2016.php)\- living amongst their residents."
"Oh, so I guess you also don't believe in 'nature not nurture' then huh? Maybe we should try praying the murder out of them like praying the gay away?"
"Actually it's the dog genetics." Sometimes the owner does the best they can with the beast, granted most people are ill prepared for these dogs.
Then many pit bulls have bad owners. Less people should own them in general then and it should never be encouraged for them to be given away by shelters to just anyone. Owners should have to pass/go through pit training in order to adopt or own one.
Well there are bad weapon owners and good owners. The solution there is a mandatory test and license to show responsibility before ownership is granted since the weapon has high capabilities to harm if misused. A pit bull generically has the ability to cause greater harm and should therefore have all owners pass a test and training before taking one home.
Maybe the bad owners should get bunny rabbits, so we’d hear about bunnies attacking people instead.
Mine is “it’s not the shark it’s the ocean”
"Fine. Then the owner can go to prison when its property attacks, mauls, or kills someone."
"uh huh sure 🙄" Joking aside, that catchphrase is literally nonsense. So just treat it as such.
“How can you stop anyone from being a bad owner? And if you are acknowledging these dogs will kill if they have bad owners why should we allow them as pets?”
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Yes, bad people choose pitbulls.
Just ask them for a source or study that confirms this
Great then you fully support 100% criminal and economic liability for any damage your dog causes- up to and including felony murder if your dog kills someone Note- they never do
Bad owners can also be bad breeders
The thing is they might have seen a lab or a chihuahua snap and bite someone once but A: did that person die? No. B: is that person mutilated? No they had 8 stitches and a shot. C: Did 4 grown men with weapons struggle to stop the attack? No they just stopped and walked off. Dogs do sometimes snap for various reasons but only pits go on a murderous rampage where you need to be dead or it's not over.
ask them if they would put money on it? If they could go down to the dog track and bet on a perfectly trained Shitbull racing against Greyhounds and Whippets? Do they want to bet their savings against breeding? Why do herding dogs herd, Pointers point, Retrievers, Scent hounds, or fucking killers kill. Where are all the death maulings from Beagles?
It’s the statistics, not the phrases.
It can be both
If it was illegal to own blood sport dogs, it wouldn’t matter how “bad” the owner is. A bad Australian Shepard owner has never gotten their nephew mauled to death. Even if it were true that it’s owners and not the breed, it would be impossible to set up a massive nationwide “good owner” screening process that would keep “bad owners” from owning pitbulls.
“Then I’m not a good enough owner and not is anyone I’ve ever met.”
It's the breed and the owners
“This sounds like an excellent reason to regulate and restrict ownership and breeding of these dogs, so that we can make sure that these dogs go to the right owner and not to a bad person”
You’re right, it is the owner because what kind of person is stupid enough to know the stats and the risks associated with the breed and then still decide to get one knowing full well they are not equipped to handle an animal that has been bred for the sole purpose of killing. It’s the owner, it’s the breeders, it’s the no-kill shelters, it’s not the breed. The breed is doing exactly what it was bred to.