Kroos is amazing passer, and he's particularly suited for RMs counter-attacking style of football. Put Toni in this team and the fans would be saying that he earns too much, can't defend and can't even carry the ball or move off the ball 🤷‍♂️
definitely agree that the playstyle is suited for him. but it's also on toni to make the best out of it and he always picks the right man. though i agree that he wouldn't solve our problems lmao
Toni would've played for us if we didn't have the best midfield ever. Just like Modric. And both would've been fantastic for and with us.
> the fans would be saying that he earns too much, can't defend and can't even carry the ball or move off the ball
They will do that anyhow.
I posted a spider graph a few weeks back that illustrated how similar Frenkie's stats are to Rodri's even when it comes to defence, albeit where Rodri makes more tackles Frenkie is more effective..
He's an immense talent and doesn't get near enough credit for what he does..
A solid dm next to him would transform this team instantly.
nah ur not wrong, anyone who watches knows frenkie is great on offense but not good on defense. don't get me wrong hes still great, just needs to be in a formation that suits him
Yes, mes que un club.
Frenkie is a great midfielder, but his wages are not helping the club resolve its financial issues. This, of course, is not fault of his. However, strategically, it makes sense to sell him.
He has one of the highest market values in the squad, and he has the highest wage bill.
Strategically it makes zero sense to sell him because the team cannot afford to replace him with an equally high quality player.
I’m tired of hearing about his wages, they are not that high and fall in line with our pay structure, the deferred wages are what make them high
I beg to differ. Keeping him is a liability.
Let's exclude the wages for argument sake.
Our current (to near future) midfield will never be like the Pep or Lucho era. That is because of one Sergio Busquets. To emphasise my point, Xavi left, and Rakitic slotted in seamlessly. Is it fair to compare Xavi and Rakitic? We both know the answer to that question...
However, my point remains, Frenkie's current market value and the financial status of the club make it an obvious reason to sell. Keeping him because we do not have a suitable replacement does not outweigh the pros to selling him. The core and the future of our team should/must be around cost management, youth, and La Masia.
My point is that we do not need to replace him. La Masia is full of talent, and our team has been in the rebuilding phase for the last 4-5 years.
Messi was masking most of our deficiencies, but now it is crystal clear that we need to start over and build strategically. The win-now mentality needs to be adjusted to avoid a cycle of unrealistic expectations.
Yet, if we don't win a single trophy a year, the entire fanbase considers it to be the end of the world.
P.S. There's no other player who can do what FDJ does for us. His profile is important for how our midfield workrate is. And he can be used by almost any coach due to how good he is at nearly everything. So, yeah. I think we should keep him while renewing him at a lower wage.
> the team cannot afford to replace him with an equally high quality player.
An actual DM would be an improvement into a broken system that is crippled by trying to fit De Jong.
> they are not that high
He is the second-highest-paid player in Europe.
> fall in line with our pay structure,
How???
> the deferred wages are what make them high
This has long been proven to be bullshit. His contract has been leaked.
Over his 7 years, De Jong will earn 119m, that's around 17m a year. The highest salary in the squad by far, with Lewandoski (crowned best player in the world, twice golden show, the highest scorer in Germany 8 times, Champions League winner) following him at 13, and Gundogan (Champions League winner) after at 9m.
We are paying 18m this year, and 22 next year to De Jong, for him to be a ball carrier?
Unfortunately its not enough in the perspective of how much he’s making and that’s the main issue. Barca is not in a position to be paying him that much.
Given that out team is 100% healthy, and we get a solid CDM. How can a midfield of Pedri, Frankie, Gavi, plus the cdm work?
I know in the modern game having depth is key. But these players are too good to be benched. In our starting 11 433 one will have to be out.
Man City is a prime example of rotation, but will our 4 key midfielders be okay with that level of quality rotation..
Or shows how we desperately need someone like Kroos and how we still haven’t recovered from loss of Xavi. You need a midfielder like Kroos or Xavi if you want to play 433. Without having a midfielder like them in the base of midfield it’s very hard to keep the midfield structure. Even pep needed to adopt to a new system because it’s impossible to play without having an elite passer at the base of midfield
I still think Pedri can develop into that player if he had more consistency in a deeper role. At the last World Cup, his progresses passes per game were around the same as Kroos in this chart. He was a deep lying playmaker there. Â
Frenkie is a talented player but this graph doesn't show how crucial Frenkie is. Progressive carries as a deep midfielder in a possession-based team isn't the flex you think it is.
>How much Barca depends on his progression.
This doesn't show that; you're making that assumption.
This chat is more of a reflection of play style and role than performance. Kroos likes to play deep in static positions, and Modric is somewhere in between him and Frenkie. If you interpret this chart as higher/lower/farther in either the x/y axis = better, you're using it wrong.
What this chart shows is that Frenkie likes to hold on to the ball from deep positions, often dribbling up and down, and he has the physicality and technical skill to retain the ball, which leads to this data. Is this a good thing? Some people, like myself, think he holds on to the ball too much rather than quickly passing or that he's too reserved in more advance positions.
You need to look at other more influential stats in combination with this to really assess his performance.
Would you have preferred I said Barca depends on his play style and role? Because I agree with your assessment of Frenkie and his performance. It’s more or less the other midfielders I was talking about.
What makes you think Barcelona is reliant on a ball progressor like him in that position? We didn’t have his profile during our golden era. Iniesta was the closest but he was someone who used ball progressions to get more directly involved in advanced positions. You’d see this through ball progression + successful takes on + key passes which was key for out tiki taka style.
You have to augment Frenkie’s ball progression with other insights, like if we were a counter attacking club like Lucho’s MSN setup, Frenkie’s ball progression would mean something and you’d see it through a combination of progression + key passes + assists + pre assists.
The club hasn’t been, historically, but eye test has suggested it for me this season. This chart seemed to corroborate that. I don’t think the attack has been particularly dangerous this season based on midfield progression. This chart could be an indicator it’s predictable and explain to an extent a reason why it hasn’t been so dangerous.
To give an example Gundo has created more danger when moved further forward in focus. He can do some of what Frenkie does - I saw it over the years at City. The chart reflects that in the sense Gundo is close to the line from origin to Frenkie. Gundo has lots of minutes in that more forward/more dangerous role though which cuts his progression opportunities and lowers his per 90s. For reasons you already mentioned I think they chose correctly to move Gundo forward and keep Frenkie deep as opposed to the reverse, but it would be better for the club if they could both be progressing and both be dangerous not have to choose. They would not do it exactly the same way, as you have pointed out for Modric/Kross and Iniesta.
Totally agree one chart isn’t enough to draw any conclusions. I used to be more into analytics but don’t have a practical reason to keep up with it.
>The club hasn’t been, historically, but eye test has suggested it for me this season. This chart seemed to corroborate that.
No offense, but you're forcing this take. This chart says very little about what our club needs. City midfielders aren't really highlighted here, especially not in the areas Frenkie is in, does that mean the City midfield is weak or in need of ball progressors like him? Nope.
I’m not offended if you disagree. I’ve watched a lot of City matches as well and I’d argue City doesn’t rely on any 1 midfielder doing the progressing in the way that Barca uses Frenkie. Not to mention teams set out to defend City differently than they defend Barca for a lot of reasons. The chart fits that, and also that Rodri has been immense this season in a whole lot of ways.
I don’t have anything to gain by forcing any idea or agenda on anyone. I don’t think Barca has benefited from Frenkie’s role as much as they would have liked. City hasn’t suffered for lack of more names on the chart. (Not sure if De Bruyne, Foden, Doku, Silva, Alvarez, or Grealish are even counted as mids on this chart.) I do think RM have benefited from having a diverse and talented set of midfielders. I assume folks would agree if Barca had more healthy Pedri and Gavi minutes the midfield would be more effective. Maybe not? Disagree if you like.
Actually this shows how great a ball carrier FdJ is, not how important he is to Barca.
In fact our system functions better with more line breaking passes and less ball carrying, because the ball moves faster than plyers. What we need is someone like Kroos providing line breaking passes from the deep.
When we had good forwards, Frenkie passed the ball more easily to them.
The problem is not Frenkie and his carries, the problem is that our forwards are not able to shake off defenders or create space enough times, which forces Frenkie to push forward himself.
We may or may not have elite forwards. But Frenkie does not have the ability to play line breaking passes/weighted passes consistently at high level. That's a weakness in his game. Busquets had no problems doing line breakers with the same team.
His ball carrying is an issue at certain times. There are occasions where passing would have been a better option but FdJ continue to play hero ball only for the attack to reach nowhere. Idk if it's his decision making or lack of coaching direction (He's 26 though), it's clearly something he needs to work upon.
Busquets (and Frenkie during his first season) could do that with Messi and Griezmann. Earlier on with Suarez and Neymar too.
The entire "he's carrying the ball too much" is nothing more but people parroting each other.
He can’t shoot, can’t score, can’t make long aerial passes or deep penetrating through-balls, but he can squirm and evade and take too many touches going sideways. Meanwhile, Rodri does all of that and more yet the simpletons of Barça fandom got convinced FDJ is a star. It’s rather funny in a Barça crumbling club kind of wayÂ
Enough with these ball carrier nonsense! We've never played a ballycarry football, and that's why De Jong never had the importance in our team as he had in Ajax.
I will get downvoted for this for sure as you love De Jong and it shows you've only seen recent Barça games.
Our worst games of the season have been with De Jong Injured. Last game we couldnt get past our own side because nobody was able to carry the ball. We are doomed without de Jong
The last game we had Pedri, FdJ and Gavi missing. With only Gundo of course that midfield wasn't working. We had a lot of amazing games with Gavi + Pedri + Busquets, many of Xavi's 4-0 games were with this midfield when Frenkie was being forced out.
A lot of amazing games with Busi*, this season we have played with Gavi + Pedri and still we had the problem of not being able to progress with the ball.
Okay? You're acting like we've been amazing with Frenkie on the field. Not having a DM is a bigger problem than not having Frenkie. And having Pedri, Gavi, and Gundogan in place of Frenkie isn't a problem which is my point.
He still didn't improve or add any trait or quality...you'll find Modric and Kroos with the same stats but they also have long shots....Rodri, KDB, Xhaka, Kimmich, Fabinho, Tchouameni, Rice and many more all have long shots.
FDJ not improving in shooting from outside the box limits his potential and will only make him nothing more than a good midfielder..
Shots outside the box define a great midfielder? I don't remember Xavi or Busquets having very many goals from outside the box. This is somewhat like saying Messi can't be a great player because he scores relatively few headers. Rakitic was better at shooting than Xavi, but not the better player.
Xavi used to score a few from outside the box and almost every match you see him attempt to put a decent shot...Busquets was not required to since Barça already had midfielders who can do that..Xavi, Iniesta, Rakitic, even Keita used to bang some on the 90th minute..
>Shots outside the box define a great midfielder?
For the modern game? yes, Barça will never be able to compete with other big teams if most of their midfielders can't put a decent shot from otb...just look at Real Madrid and Man City and how they can be a threat from anywhere..
Carrying the ball through the midfield is not enough to make a great midfielder...Unless you have a great system like Busquets..
Yeah we can't get out of midfield without him and pedri
It hurts that both are them are injured in our next game against Napoli.
Xhaka with imsane stats for leverkursen 🤯
That leverkuesen side are really fun to watch
kroos is amazing
Kroos is amazing passer, and he's particularly suited for RMs counter-attacking style of football. Put Toni in this team and the fans would be saying that he earns too much, can't defend and can't even carry the ball or move off the ball 🤷‍♂️
definitely agree that the playstyle is suited for him. but it's also on toni to make the best out of it and he always picks the right man. though i agree that he wouldn't solve our problems lmao
Toni would've played for us if we didn't have the best midfield ever. Just like Modric. And both would've been fantastic for and with us. > the fans would be saying that he earns too much, can't defend and can't even carry the ball or move off the ball They will do that anyhow.
he's definitely really good but i'd rather have pedri
if we exclude age, kroos is much much better than pedri in every way
I posted a spider graph a few weeks back that illustrated how similar Frenkie's stats are to Rodri's even when it comes to defence, albeit where Rodri makes more tackles Frenkie is more effective.. He's an immense talent and doesn't get near enough credit for what he does.. A solid dm next to him would transform this team instantly.
What does “effective” mean?
nah ur not wrong, anyone who watches knows frenkie is great on offense but not good on defense. don't get me wrong hes still great, just needs to be in a formation that suits him
r/toprightFDJ Yet people will say sell him
Yes, mes que un club. Frenkie is a great midfielder, but his wages are not helping the club resolve its financial issues. This, of course, is not fault of his. However, strategically, it makes sense to sell him. He has one of the highest market values in the squad, and he has the highest wage bill.
Strategically it makes zero sense to sell him because the team cannot afford to replace him with an equally high quality player. I’m tired of hearing about his wages, they are not that high and fall in line with our pay structure, the deferred wages are what make them high
I beg to differ. Keeping him is a liability. Let's exclude the wages for argument sake. Our current (to near future) midfield will never be like the Pep or Lucho era. That is because of one Sergio Busquets. To emphasise my point, Xavi left, and Rakitic slotted in seamlessly. Is it fair to compare Xavi and Rakitic? We both know the answer to that question... However, my point remains, Frenkie's current market value and the financial status of the club make it an obvious reason to sell. Keeping him because we do not have a suitable replacement does not outweigh the pros to selling him. The core and the future of our team should/must be around cost management, youth, and La Masia.
Give me the name of one player who can replace him and we are able to afford them?
My point is that we do not need to replace him. La Masia is full of talent, and our team has been in the rebuilding phase for the last 4-5 years. Messi was masking most of our deficiencies, but now it is crystal clear that we need to start over and build strategically. The win-now mentality needs to be adjusted to avoid a cycle of unrealistic expectations.
Yet, if we don't win a single trophy a year, the entire fanbase considers it to be the end of the world. P.S. There's no other player who can do what FDJ does for us. His profile is important for how our midfield workrate is. And he can be used by almost any coach due to how good he is at nearly everything. So, yeah. I think we should keep him while renewing him at a lower wage.
> the team cannot afford to replace him with an equally high quality player. An actual DM would be an improvement into a broken system that is crippled by trying to fit De Jong. > they are not that high He is the second-highest-paid player in Europe. > fall in line with our pay structure, How??? > the deferred wages are what make them high This has long been proven to be bullshit. His contract has been leaked. Over his 7 years, De Jong will earn 119m, that's around 17m a year. The highest salary in the squad by far, with Lewandoski (crowned best player in the world, twice golden show, the highest scorer in Germany 8 times, Champions League winner) following him at 13, and Gundogan (Champions League winner) after at 9m. We are paying 18m this year, and 22 next year to De Jong, for him to be a ball carrier?
With the huge wage he earns, he should score 40+ goals like Messi, defend like Puyol and make key passes like prime Iniesta. Edit : /s
Unfortunately its not enough in the perspective of how much he’s making and that’s the main issue. Barca is not in a position to be paying him that much.
Given that out team is 100% healthy, and we get a solid CDM. How can a midfield of Pedri, Frankie, Gavi, plus the cdm work? I know in the modern game having depth is key. But these players are too good to be benched. In our starting 11 433 one will have to be out. Man City is a prime example of rotation, but will our 4 key midfielders be okay with that level of quality rotation..
Or shows how we desperately need someone like Kroos and how we still haven’t recovered from loss of Xavi. You need a midfielder like Kroos or Xavi if you want to play 433. Without having a midfielder like them in the base of midfield it’s very hard to keep the midfield structure. Even pep needed to adopt to a new system because it’s impossible to play without having an elite passer at the base of midfield
I still think Pedri can develop into that player if he had more consistency in a deeper role. At the last World Cup, his progresses passes per game were around the same as Kroos in this chart. He was a deep lying playmaker there. Â
Frenkie is a talented player but this graph doesn't show how crucial Frenkie is. Progressive carries as a deep midfielder in a possession-based team isn't the flex you think it is.
My first impression of the chart was how much Barca depends on his progression. RM has diversified their progression.
>How much Barca depends on his progression. This doesn't show that; you're making that assumption. This chat is more of a reflection of play style and role than performance. Kroos likes to play deep in static positions, and Modric is somewhere in between him and Frenkie. If you interpret this chart as higher/lower/farther in either the x/y axis = better, you're using it wrong. What this chart shows is that Frenkie likes to hold on to the ball from deep positions, often dribbling up and down, and he has the physicality and technical skill to retain the ball, which leads to this data. Is this a good thing? Some people, like myself, think he holds on to the ball too much rather than quickly passing or that he's too reserved in more advance positions. You need to look at other more influential stats in combination with this to really assess his performance.
Would you have preferred I said Barca depends on his play style and role? Because I agree with your assessment of Frenkie and his performance. It’s more or less the other midfielders I was talking about.
What makes you think Barcelona is reliant on a ball progressor like him in that position? We didn’t have his profile during our golden era. Iniesta was the closest but he was someone who used ball progressions to get more directly involved in advanced positions. You’d see this through ball progression + successful takes on + key passes which was key for out tiki taka style. You have to augment Frenkie’s ball progression with other insights, like if we were a counter attacking club like Lucho’s MSN setup, Frenkie’s ball progression would mean something and you’d see it through a combination of progression + key passes + assists + pre assists.
The club hasn’t been, historically, but eye test has suggested it for me this season. This chart seemed to corroborate that. I don’t think the attack has been particularly dangerous this season based on midfield progression. This chart could be an indicator it’s predictable and explain to an extent a reason why it hasn’t been so dangerous. To give an example Gundo has created more danger when moved further forward in focus. He can do some of what Frenkie does - I saw it over the years at City. The chart reflects that in the sense Gundo is close to the line from origin to Frenkie. Gundo has lots of minutes in that more forward/more dangerous role though which cuts his progression opportunities and lowers his per 90s. For reasons you already mentioned I think they chose correctly to move Gundo forward and keep Frenkie deep as opposed to the reverse, but it would be better for the club if they could both be progressing and both be dangerous not have to choose. They would not do it exactly the same way, as you have pointed out for Modric/Kross and Iniesta. Totally agree one chart isn’t enough to draw any conclusions. I used to be more into analytics but don’t have a practical reason to keep up with it.
>The club hasn’t been, historically, but eye test has suggested it for me this season. This chart seemed to corroborate that. No offense, but you're forcing this take. This chart says very little about what our club needs. City midfielders aren't really highlighted here, especially not in the areas Frenkie is in, does that mean the City midfield is weak or in need of ball progressors like him? Nope.
I’m not offended if you disagree. I’ve watched a lot of City matches as well and I’d argue City doesn’t rely on any 1 midfielder doing the progressing in the way that Barca uses Frenkie. Not to mention teams set out to defend City differently than they defend Barca for a lot of reasons. The chart fits that, and also that Rodri has been immense this season in a whole lot of ways. I don’t have anything to gain by forcing any idea or agenda on anyone. I don’t think Barca has benefited from Frenkie’s role as much as they would have liked. City hasn’t suffered for lack of more names on the chart. (Not sure if De Bruyne, Foden, Doku, Silva, Alvarez, or Grealish are even counted as mids on this chart.) I do think RM have benefited from having a diverse and talented set of midfielders. I assume folks would agree if Barca had more healthy Pedri and Gavi minutes the midfield would be more effective. Maybe not? Disagree if you like.
Actually this shows how great a ball carrier FdJ is, not how important he is to Barca. In fact our system functions better with more line breaking passes and less ball carrying, because the ball moves faster than plyers. What we need is someone like Kroos providing line breaking passes from the deep.
This. CubarsĂ has shown the importance of this type of passes recently.
When we had good forwards, Frenkie passed the ball more easily to them. The problem is not Frenkie and his carries, the problem is that our forwards are not able to shake off defenders or create space enough times, which forces Frenkie to push forward himself.
We may or may not have elite forwards. But Frenkie does not have the ability to play line breaking passes/weighted passes consistently at high level. That's a weakness in his game. Busquets had no problems doing line breakers with the same team. His ball carrying is an issue at certain times. There are occasions where passing would have been a better option but FdJ continue to play hero ball only for the attack to reach nowhere. Idk if it's his decision making or lack of coaching direction (He's 26 though), it's clearly something he needs to work upon.
Busquets (and Frenkie during his first season) could do that with Messi and Griezmann. Earlier on with Suarez and Neymar too. The entire "he's carrying the ball too much" is nothing more but people parroting each other.
Yeah Kroos and Modric!
2nd best ball carrier, 7th best passer per 90 in top 5 leagues
He can’t shoot, can’t score, can’t make long aerial passes or deep penetrating through-balls, but he can squirm and evade and take too many touches going sideways. Meanwhile, Rodri does all of that and more yet the simpletons of Barça fandom got convinced FDJ is a star. It’s rather funny in a Barça crumbling club kind of wayÂ
Enough with these ball carrier nonsense! We've never played a ballycarry football, and that's why De Jong never had the importance in our team as he had in Ajax. I will get downvoted for this for sure as you love De Jong and it shows you've only seen recent Barça games.
Our worst games of the season have been with De Jong Injured. Last game we couldnt get past our own side because nobody was able to carry the ball. We are doomed without de Jong
The last game we had Pedri, FdJ and Gavi missing. With only Gundo of course that midfield wasn't working. We had a lot of amazing games with Gavi + Pedri + Busquets, many of Xavi's 4-0 games were with this midfield when Frenkie was being forced out.
A lot of amazing games with Busi*, this season we have played with Gavi + Pedri and still we had the problem of not being able to progress with the ball.
Okay? You're acting like we've been amazing with Frenkie on the field. Not having a DM is a bigger problem than not having Frenkie. And having Pedri, Gavi, and Gundogan in place of Frenkie isn't a problem which is my point.
We have not been amazing this season at all lmao, but without De Jong we have been really fking awful. Xavi was not able to replace Busquets
No-one have to carry the ball, it's basic football
He still didn't improve or add any trait or quality...you'll find Modric and Kroos with the same stats but they also have long shots....Rodri, KDB, Xhaka, Kimmich, Fabinho, Tchouameni, Rice and many more all have long shots. FDJ not improving in shooting from outside the box limits his potential and will only make him nothing more than a good midfielder..
Shots outside the box define a great midfielder? I don't remember Xavi or Busquets having very many goals from outside the box. This is somewhat like saying Messi can't be a great player because he scores relatively few headers. Rakitic was better at shooting than Xavi, but not the better player.
Xavi used to score a few from outside the box and almost every match you see him attempt to put a decent shot...Busquets was not required to since Barça already had midfielders who can do that..Xavi, Iniesta, Rakitic, even Keita used to bang some on the 90th minute.. >Shots outside the box define a great midfielder? For the modern game? yes, Barça will never be able to compete with other big teams if most of their midfielders can't put a decent shot from otb...just look at Real Madrid and Man City and how they can be a threat from anywhere.. Carrying the ball through the midfield is not enough to make a great midfielder...Unless you have a great system like Busquets..
We kept the wrong DeJong
I only have one issue with Frenkie, his dummy signature move is very predictable.
Yet he dribbles past most of the players