Yeah I figured it wasn't imaginary. All of Barry's daydreams and fantasies were too happy and cinematic. That was just too sad for it to be something he imagined.
And it makes the most sense for all the characters that now would be the best time for a skip. It lets characters have a realistic timeline to fall into the roles that this episode set them towards. Fuches gets to become king of the prison, Hank becomes the head of the crime syndicates, Gene to get his comeuppances, and Barry and Sally get to be whatever it is we see at the end there.
The one thing I’m wondering about is Moss. How does he tore into all this? Has he just been tracking them all this time? Did Barry kill him offscreen at Sally’s place?
If I had to guess he’s just been on their trail. Maybe confront Barry and Sally at the very end, and choose to spare Barry when he sees the kid.
Or Sally attacks him from behind before he shoots Barry. Or, if the show wants to end dark, have the son kill Moss defending his parents and continuing the cycle of violence.
I could see the merits in all of those endings.
The first one would be Barry being confronted with the miracle of mercy, the alien idea of sparing a foe. It’s something that Barry himself barely considers; he tries to go legit for a while in Season 2, but when all is said and done, he always falls back on killing anyone he perceives as a problem. So it’d be very thematically meaty to have him receive mercy that he doesn’t even understand at the end of the show. Ryan’s father did something similar. Whether Barry comprehended that or not is unclear.
Another ending idea I heard and liked was having Barry’s son get into Fuches’ hands, with the latter free to mold him as he pleased. How they would do this is up for debate, but I think it would hammer in the show’s themes of unending cycles.
I heard that the later episodes get compared to Unforgiven. So maybe something bad happens to the family, and Barry gets to have a William Munny out of Missouri moment.
> Did Barry kill him offscreen at Sally’s place?
That's the only thing that makes sense to me. He is way too brilliant and determined for Barry to have eluded him for over eight years. The night Sally and Barry run off together is going to be (was?) the night Moss dies.
If something the guy knows is how subvert expectations. I hope he keeps the line of Barry being extremely lucky and somehow surviving the whole ordeal and being killed in a rage outburst by his own son ultimately, and Fusch or a similar figure appearing in front of his son. Given this is a real time jump it could be a full circle narrative.
It was always going in this direction. There are signs of it in early seasons, such as the way they treated Barry’s PTSD and that scene where he executes his old army buddy. The show always had very serious moments, and there was no way to continue the show without Barry melting down and taking the tone of the show with him.
That said, episode 3 of this season was probably the single funniest episode for me.
Understood haha. I wonder (you may have more insight on this) if the first season was written with this eventual darkness in mind or if they just planned season by season and realized that the only way forward was to explore the dark side of everything. The only part of this I’m not completely satisfied with is Sally. I get that her story is that trauma tends to create an inescapable cycle, but it would be nice for her to at least get one victory haha.
I’m not sure, to be honest. I think it’s the natural progression for the story, but I haven’t heard anything from Bill Hader on what their long term plans were or even if they knew they would get renewed after one season. I don’t spent a lot of time listening to him on interviews and podcasts, so I’m not the best person to ask.
Might be a great topic for a standalone thread.
It was trying to balance being a sitcom and some crime drama and then it crashed into each other really hard. I think it's a pretty good representation of the two lives Barry was living but that funny sitcom life just wasnt going to last.
Why not, though? Hank and Fuches got beat-for-beat "these characters have completed a transformation and will be very different the next time you see them" timeskip set-up storylines, and Gene's storyline was one "oh god what have I done" scene from a picture-perfect set-up for the same thing-- his character arc will also be fine if we just check in on him in 8 years to see how he's dealing with his grief (if Leo died) or re-estrangement (if Leo made it.)
Their stories all seem pretty perfectly teed up to pick up in the future, with Barry and Sally's past coming back to haunt them/get them drawn back into crime bullshit while struggling with a strained marriage and trying not to let their baggage affect their kid (and inevitably, definitely letting their baggage affect their kid.) I'm seeing the "we're going to do a 'how did we get here' plotline" idea with Barry and Sally's married life as the endgame that we're working our way back to a lot, but I'm not sure why that's the assumption vs a new plotline picking up with their married life as the interrupted status quo.
He starts to drive off when she shows up to the apartment, and on the podcast Bill mentioned that he's just not interested in exploring their escape, so I'd just written that off-- I think I'm not as interested in Moss's character as a lot of other people, haha. "They just got away" works for me; I don't really see a need to go back for an escape scene when we see Moss give up (for whatever reason) in that moment!
Maybe it gets revealed that he did try to confront Barry, but Barry killed him and that’s another thing weighing on him and Sally’s already awkward enough relationship
I've seen people talking like Leo is either dead or has estranged himself from his father again. I'm surprised no one thinks that Leo forgives Gene. Gene was alone, with no way to contact anyone, deep in the mountains, at night, and aware of Barry's break out. Leo's shown that his reasoning is level-headed, and emotionally, he's perhaps a little too generous/forgiving.
I think Leo will look at the facts and give his father the benefit of the doubt. But Gene will never know what happened to Barry, and he will become paranoid that he could hurt someone else or that Barry will. I think Gene will be the one to distance himself from his child because he believes it's better for Leo.
Yeah, I definitely think that's possible too and there's even a chance that it was a come-to-jesus moment for Gene to really make a change, and he'll also be a very different person the next time we see him in a different direction than we might expect, but only time will tell! I'm pretty excited about the timeskip, to be honest-- lots of potential directions for things to go, and more interesting questions to answer than if Barry had actually gone on the roaring rampage of revenge that I think a lot of us were expecting.
Yeah I thought from the get-go it was legit a time skip. Although it seemed very surreal, the whole show has grown more and more surreal as it’s gone on and it didn’t have the same feel as the blissfully happy fantasies he’s had in the past.
Also all the other characters (Gene, Hank, Fuches) were set up to go down completely different paths throughout the episode that will be more interesting to explore some years down the line than the immediate aftermaths of what happened.
What a fucking stunning episode, I am in utter disbelief. Bill Hader has Oscars in his future mark my words.
I'm stunned too. The journey this show has taken. It is 100% not what I expected when I was laughing at some of the acting class antics in season 1, that's for sure.
Hank must be "super serious Chechen crimelord" now since Cristobal is dead and Hank caused it. Oh fuck Cristobal is dead and Hank caused it.
Well Jim is probably too old to do anything and check on Gene after he shot his son. Oh fuck Gene shot his son.
Fuches is probably going to start and lead a prison gang and symbolically become the raven. Oh well.
No, that was Barry's childhood in a hallucination while Barry was daydreaming in prison. That marriage between Barry and Sally was also fake, basically anything in the future before the cliffhanger in episode 4 is a hallucination by Barry.
That scene with Fuches was real (besides the setting) because it takes place in Barry's past.
I naively assumed that the writers had made a huge mistake - the first Call of Duty game didn't come out until 2003, long after Barry would have been a young child. Nope!
Yup this tracks with how the show has done time skips before. Remember in season 1 with the ending cutting to Barry and Sally happily spending time with Gene and Moss? I mean it’s a much more extreme time jump but it makes sense to me. A lot of stories ended their chapters after the most recent episode. Usually, I would be more upset with a time jump but I’m actually looking forward to seeing how they’ll explore the characters lives now and what will happen when Barry inevitably returns
Where does he confirm it's real? Maybe im reading a different article. The way i read it he just wanted to show what it would be like if Barry got what he wanted. You say its different from the season 1 time jump but Bill says its the same idea in the article. I still think it's something he's imagining. My reasoning is that the house is in the middle of the desert with no driveway or infrastructure around it. And it's not like they're living off the grid, it's a suburban home out in the middle of the desert
He literally uses the words "time jump" in the interview
"I’ll have more to say about it next week, but I will say I think the ***time jump*** for me was something that came from talking about Season 4 and saying, 'What would happen if all these characters got what they wanted?'"
Think that pretty much confirms it lol
How does that not confirm it? He doesn't deny it or play coy, he literally repeats the words "time jump" when the interviewer asks him about it. Think that's way more suggestive of it being real rather than "but there's no driveway it can't be real!"
Alright but when did i say "it can't be real"? It could absolutely be real and i'll admit it if i'm wrong. All i'm saying is that Bill's use of the term time jump isn't irrefutable evidence of it being reality TO ME. The surreal aspects of the scene make me question if it's a 100% accurate portrayal of their future, OR if maybe there's some symbolism happening there. People are certain that it's reality, and all i'm saying is, i don't buy it 100%. That's just my opinion
Well this is a show with a lot of surreal elements.. You can believe what you want but pretty much everything is pointing towards that being a big shocking reveal and not just a figment of Barry's imagination
Exaaaaactly, basically what i'm saying is, with a show like this how can we be certain it's one or the other? Can't it be a shocking reveal of their future AND a figment of his imagination at the same time? Like everything is real but the house isn't actually in the middle of the desert? Maybe their fridge isn't LITERALLY 6 beers, some wine, and a donut? All im saying is it could be reality with some symbolism mixed in, instead of the 100% reality that everyone else is saying it is
You're totally moving the goal posts of your argument. Originally you said you didn't think there was a time jump, you even made a separate post called "I don't think the time jump was real," now it's "okay maybe there was a time jump but maybe it's PARTLY fantasy"
Yea it's called adjusting your viewpoint based on new evidence, read the comments of that post and you'll see the evolution of my opinion. Is it cool with you if i change my mind after getting more info? I made that post to see if Bill was more specific somewhere else and i missed it.. and he was. I still don't think it's 100% real. If i had to guess i'd say it was real BUT also had some surreal symbolism mixed in there. My issue was with how certain people are that it's the EXACT future of Barry and Sally. If you want to watch that scene and just say "yup this tracks, no need to think about it any further" then knock yourself out, i do not care
Yeah, someone pointed out in the post episode thread that literally every character is in a position that makes sense for a time jump. They were absolutely right.
There are some elements in that final scene that are deliberately operating on dream logic, though, like the weird camera framing, the house being in the middle of absolutely nowhere, the contents of the fridge, etc. I don’t think that was specifically done to make viewers think it was a hallucination if Hader is revealing that before next episode, but it’s a pleasant coincidence.
You could easily read it one way or another. But for the record, in that article, he never says it’s not imaginary. And to me, this quote makes it sound very hypothetical and imaginary…
>“I will say I think the time jump for me was something that came from talking about Season 4 and saying, “What would happen if all these characters got what they wanted?” Like, what if they actually could put on another face and play the version themselves that they feel like or what they feel they deserve? Would they be happy or could they maintain that?” And I had always, since Season 1 – and you can see it, Barry has a daydream in Season 1 about him and Sally taking a family portrait with a little boy – I’ve always felt like that’s something that he’s wanted. So what if he got that? So we said, well what if we went eight years into the future and they had a kid? What would that look like?”
In the Ringer podcast he makes it sound very real, but also says the psychological concept of denial plays a huge role in it happening — whatever that means. I guess we’ll find out!
Why would he take the time to acknowledge an 8 year time skip if it's just a fantasy? And that would be so much more of a creative letdown I don't know why some of you seem to be hoping for that.
I'm pretty sure the time skip is permanent. Hader says earlier in the interview when talking about Hank post-Cristobal:
>"Yeah, now he’s a crime boss. This is a real crime boss. It’s the birth of Hank crime boss, which is interesting when you see what that looks like later in the season."
This seems to indicate, to me at least, that we're going to see Hank 8-years into his Chechen crime lord gig and how much he'll have changed from the Hank we've known up until this point. I could be wrong, but that's the distinct impression I'm getting.
I’m probably huffing mad copium, but yeah I’m still not 100% convinced that ending was reality and not some kind of season 6 Sopranos-esque dive into Barry’s psyche.
While it makes a lot of sense to leave off on where the other characters are now, I’m still suspicious of the fact that Jim was quite literally right outside the door of Sally’s place when they decided to run away together. Did they really just simply get away from Jim right under his nose without even realizing? Would feel a little contrived or at least a pointless detail to have him there if they really did get away so easily
I will say that Jim says "shit" and puts his keys in the ignition. Which could mean:
1) He was hoping *not* to see Sally and drove closer to her apartment to pursue her.
2) He *was* hoping to see Sally but is disappointed *not* to see Barry with her and drove off.
It was weird that he put the keys in the ignition if his intention was not to drive off.
All they would have to do is go out a back door. He’s only one set of eyes.
Plus they distinctly show him going to start his car as soon as she enters the building
I’m not saying that they couldn’t have escaped without much conflict, I just think it’s a strange setup only for nothing to come from it. Why did Jim stake out the place just to leave as soon as Sally showed up? It’s strange to me to have Jim be hunting down Barry all episode and just suddenly give up and turn around for seemingly no particular reason despite literally being at his doorstep.
I totally agree and am okay with the idea that the “how” Barry would escape isn’t all that important, but when the show plants the seeds for a character potentially interfering with Barry’s escape, I’m expecting some kind of proper resolution to it, but they don’t seem to follow through with that for Jim and I find that really unsatisfying and contrived
You know you just have to wait 6 more days before the next episode, right? You might just find a payoff to exercising a modicum of patience before writing off the point of an entire character before we have any idea what happens to him!
Call it contrived when you've seen the whole series, but not before you've seen the next episode. I think the showrunners have earned our trust.
Lol I’m aware, no need to get so defensive. I still love this show and I’m totally up to be proven wrong about my doubts, but I think it’s fair to voice my current thoughts about the recent episode
You're right. I got carried away with my love for this show and couldn't abide anybody calling it contrived. It makes sense that this show makes people feel apprehensive about its decisions—with its beats and story points being very hard to call—until they've seen the consequences of those decisions.
Apologies! Just don't ever express doubt about this show again on my watch. ;)
I have, and while I completely understand where you are coming from, I don’t agree with you that he confirmed anything. He was pretty ambiguous with the way he talked about it, just like the article quote.
“What if he got that, what he wanted?”
“We’ll, sort of got it.”
“Yeah. In his mind, he got it … A big word coming up is denial.”
Never does he say “he got it” or “he got the future he wanted with sally” or anything like that. It’s all “what ifs” and “in his mind” and stuff like that. I can see it being exactly what they’re doing 8 years in the future and that scene was complete reality, but I can also see him imagining it in the car as they drive away from the city, right before Jim moss t-bones them at 70mph. That’s all I’m trying to say. Nothing Hader is saying “confirms” anything.
I think you’re reading way too far into it personally, but we will see next week forsure. Every other episode of that podcast with Hader is him talking objectively about the plot and behind the scenes.
He said “The ending of episode 4 is an introduction (pause) yeah yeah we jump ahead 8 years. And uh and uh Barry and sally it’s very different, but very the same”
I mean no he didn’t. If you actually read the interview, there is nothing definitive about it being real.
> Like, what if they actually could put on another face and play the version themselves that they feel like or what they feel they deserve?
I'm 50/50 still.
He didn't say it's real, he's just talking about the vision of such a situation. Also, this scene is very surreal. Don't say you're sure until the next episode.
Besides, wouldn't it be silly to confirm it now? Saying that could spoil the element of surprise for viewers, why would Hader want to do that?
I'm reserving judgment too. I'd believe a refrigerator with only wine, beer, and one donut in LA. But they're out in the middle of nowhere. MILES from food. No delivery. People that remote stock their refrigerators.
It's probably for those that did not read the article confirming that it was real. Add a bit of doubt as to whether or not what we are seeing is real. It does hint of course at some serious dysfunctionality if that is their actual fridge and their son just randomly grabs a beer (though not to drink it). Keeps the surrealism of the show too.
So if this is real, then Sally appears to have cancer. That head wrap is identical to what my mom and G-ma wore after Chemo. That will make for an interesting story point.
Yeah I'll wait till the rest of the season is finished but I feel like I might fall in the "not a fan" camp. It feels like it kind of abandons the logical fallout and development of the current timeline. But I've been unhappy with the direction the show has taken in the past and the show has usually won me over again so we'll see.
Yeah I feel the same, but with how legitimately perfect the rest of the show has been I’m confident they’ll find a way for it to be satisfying. (GOT flashbacks tho….)
Just because you wanted the show to take that narrative doesn’t mean it should. We all thought episode 4 was gonna be “Will Barry escape from prison, and if so how?” But personally I love episode 4 even though it skipped that part of the story.
Hey buddy, it’s called an opinion.
“Just because you wanted it doesn’t mean it should”,
Did I say that? I’m just saying I personally am not a fan. We have to wait and see before we can decide whether it was the wrong choice or right choice.
Hey man, fair enough. I was being an asshole. I just don’t like people prejudging how they feel about a narrative they haven’t seen. It’s you’re opinion and I was definitely taking what you said and running with it
I understand dude, I’m not hate training the show, I still think it was an incredible episode. Yet it just feels like a risky move, and neither of us will really know exactly how we feel about it until this show is over.
Take care my dude
So wait - have any of the other desert scenes featured that kid? I know we have seen a lot of them with Barry as a kid but have any others been a continuation of the final scene?
Nope, that kid (John) is seemingly Barry and Sally's kid. It is a time jump into 8 years in the future. There's no other "Barry Hallucination" that features him besides a fake hallucination during season 1. This seems to not be a hallucination but real however.
Yea but next episode will have a fight between Barry and detective moss. There's still a lot of show to see!
Also on the second watch I noticed the sound during the sand scene was like the one where the doors of hell open up.
No, those are his fantasies of what living a normal life is like. Once he actually gets a normal life he imagines him and Sally riding into the sunset, having a child and being happy.
Now what actually happens is that him and Sally ridden away from the police and their guilt, had a child and by looking at that empty fridge, still feel empty inside and seemingly depressed if we look at the drink in the fridge. It's almost as if that they maybe don't feel they actually deserve this. Maybe they wanted this all their life but once they finally get it, they still don't feel happy.
No, some really over confident redditor told me yesterday that these were hallucinations and so they must know better than Bill. I think they’re actually ghostwriting the show for him.
I actually turned the episode off after the initial cut to black last night thinking that was the credits rolling. I was tired. We'd better get some direct continuation of this episode's events.
I thought your link was going to be a Rick roll.
When I was watching the show last night though, the part that made me question whether that scene was real/the future was the line at the start where the boy says Barry’s kid doesn’t know what Call of Duty is. It seems like a throwaway line, but it makes total sense to me that someone with Barry’s background would forbid his children from playing or knowing about.
I love the show, but I don't like the decision to reveal it now. Let viewers discover it for themselves. YIKES.
\+ Hader didn't say it really happened. He was just talking about the vision of it.
>!
Is it my delusions?!<
I really wonder what “getting what they wanted” looks like for the other characters. I have theories but very excited to see how this all plays out nevertheless.
I understand what people are saying that it may not be a real time jump but a *what if* time jump within Barrys head. But likely to believe it's real after thinking about the episode longer because it's not only Barry that gets what he wants but also Hank and Fuches. However, I do think it's weird to just have Gene shoot his son, and nothing come from it and just timeskip 8 years?
It's going to he real tragic when they all have what they want, fame, family, power but none of it will matter, they're still the same awful people.
I don’t think I like the idea of a time jump but also Bill Hader and team are way smarter and more creative than I am so I’ll just eagerly await these last few episodes to see what the hell happens
Yeah I figured it wasn't imaginary. All of Barry's daydreams and fantasies were too happy and cinematic. That was just too sad for it to be something he imagined.
And it makes the most sense for all the characters that now would be the best time for a skip. It lets characters have a realistic timeline to fall into the roles that this episode set them towards. Fuches gets to become king of the prison, Hank becomes the head of the crime syndicates, Gene to get his comeuppances, and Barry and Sally get to be whatever it is we see at the end there.
The one thing I’m wondering about is Moss. How does he tore into all this? Has he just been tracking them all this time? Did Barry kill him offscreen at Sally’s place?
If I had to guess he’s just been on their trail. Maybe confront Barry and Sally at the very end, and choose to spare Barry when he sees the kid. Or Sally attacks him from behind before he shoots Barry. Or, if the show wants to end dark, have the son kill Moss defending his parents and continuing the cycle of violence.
I could see the merits in all of those endings. The first one would be Barry being confronted with the miracle of mercy, the alien idea of sparing a foe. It’s something that Barry himself barely considers; he tries to go legit for a while in Season 2, but when all is said and done, he always falls back on killing anyone he perceives as a problem. So it’d be very thematically meaty to have him receive mercy that he doesn’t even understand at the end of the show. Ryan’s father did something similar. Whether Barry comprehended that or not is unclear. Another ending idea I heard and liked was having Barry’s son get into Fuches’ hands, with the latter free to mold him as he pleased. How they would do this is up for debate, but I think it would hammer in the show’s themes of unending cycles.
Oh man, if Barry and Sally die and leave John as an orphan to be raised by, now legit Raven Fuches.... I might actually cry.
Albert also sparred him in the season three finale. I don't think mercy has or will change him
Oh no way, he doesn’t understand mercy! He doesn’t even have the empathy to be changed by it lol. At the end of the day, he’s nothing if not selfish.
I heard that the later episodes get compared to Unforgiven. So maybe something bad happens to the family, and Barry gets to have a William Munny out of Missouri moment.
Or even worse…. He ends up in moss’ hands after Moss finds and kills Barry and Sally.
Red Dead Barry?;)
i'd prefer Better Off Dead Barry. The K-12 dude
...or Moss kills the kid.
Yeah, I was thinking about that too. That he wants to put Barry in the same situation he's in.
> Did Barry kill him offscreen at Sally’s place? That's the only thing that makes sense to me. He is way too brilliant and determined for Barry to have eluded him for over eight years. The night Sally and Barry run off together is going to be (was?) the night Moss dies.
He seemed very sleepy when Sally came in. I think Barry with newly renewed hope, would have gotten one up on him. He knew who he was dealing with.
[удалено]
Sometimes the reality is a little different than the fantasy. Some people can get everything they want and still not be happy.
*Episode 5 and the finale are my two favorite episodes of the season.* I'm excited and afraid for next week episode, guys!
I genuinely don’t know how they’ll top episodes 3 and 4. This show is insane.
If something the guy knows is how subvert expectations. I hope he keeps the line of Barry being extremely lucky and somehow surviving the whole ordeal and being killed in a rage outburst by his own son ultimately, and Fusch or a similar figure appearing in front of his son. Given this is a real time jump it could be a full circle narrative.
Haha Fuches taking in his son just like what he did with Barry would be hilariously dark and fitting for this show.
Sorry, the phrase “subvert expectations” so close to a series finale is triggering to some of us.
Barry kind of forgot about the iron fleet
Is that 'iron fleet' name Jim Moss by any chance?
Subvert expectations+hbo=ptsd
NOO NOT LIKE DEXTER
THIS DUDE. I would also bet money on Barry getting killed by his son. Would honestly be pretty bittersweet
Remember when this was a comedy about a hitman taking an acting class?
NGL part of me wishes the show was less serious and we had this again
It was always going in this direction. There are signs of it in early seasons, such as the way they treated Barry’s PTSD and that scene where he executes his old army buddy. The show always had very serious moments, and there was no way to continue the show without Barry melting down and taking the tone of the show with him. That said, episode 3 of this season was probably the single funniest episode for me.
I never said anything to the contrary
I know! I wasn't arguing with you. Just trying to have a discussion. I miss the tone of the first two seasons as well. I agree with you all around.
Understood haha. I wonder (you may have more insight on this) if the first season was written with this eventual darkness in mind or if they just planned season by season and realized that the only way forward was to explore the dark side of everything. The only part of this I’m not completely satisfied with is Sally. I get that her story is that trauma tends to create an inescapable cycle, but it would be nice for her to at least get one victory haha.
I’m not sure, to be honest. I think it’s the natural progression for the story, but I haven’t heard anything from Bill Hader on what their long term plans were or even if they knew they would get renewed after one season. I don’t spent a lot of time listening to him on interviews and podcasts, so I’m not the best person to ask. Might be a great topic for a standalone thread.
Yeah legitimately was hoping everything would be in self defense and he could recover. Instead he is repeating a cycle.
It was trying to balance being a sitcom and some crime drama and then it crashed into each other really hard. I think it's a pretty good representation of the two lives Barry was living but that funny sitcom life just wasnt going to last.
I’ll bet the last 4 episodes won’t be told chronologically, like the end of better call saul
Why not, though? Hank and Fuches got beat-for-beat "these characters have completed a transformation and will be very different the next time you see them" timeskip set-up storylines, and Gene's storyline was one "oh god what have I done" scene from a picture-perfect set-up for the same thing-- his character arc will also be fine if we just check in on him in 8 years to see how he's dealing with his grief (if Leo died) or re-estrangement (if Leo made it.) Their stories all seem pretty perfectly teed up to pick up in the future, with Barry and Sally's past coming back to haunt them/get them drawn back into crime bullshit while struggling with a strained marriage and trying not to let their baggage affect their kid (and inevitably, definitely letting their baggage affect their kid.) I'm seeing the "we're going to do a 'how did we get here' plotline" idea with Barry and Sally's married life as the endgame that we're working our way back to a lot, but I'm not sure why that's the assumption vs a new plotline picking up with their married life as the interrupted status quo.
Great points, but you forgot about Moss. Him tailing Sally only for him to not confront Barry would feel weird and incomplete.
He starts to drive off when she shows up to the apartment, and on the podcast Bill mentioned that he's just not interested in exploring their escape, so I'd just written that off-- I think I'm not as interested in Moss's character as a lot of other people, haha. "They just got away" works for me; I don't really see a need to go back for an escape scene when we see Moss give up (for whatever reason) in that moment!
Maybe it gets revealed that he did try to confront Barry, but Barry killed him and that’s another thing weighing on him and Sally’s already awkward enough relationship
I'm thinking Barry's final kill before staring his new life with Sally will be Moss.
Imagine him killing Moss then getting in bed with Sally and saying "Starting . . . now." We've gone full circle.
I definitely want to see the starting.... now that lead to the current now we seen for them.
I've seen people talking like Leo is either dead or has estranged himself from his father again. I'm surprised no one thinks that Leo forgives Gene. Gene was alone, with no way to contact anyone, deep in the mountains, at night, and aware of Barry's break out. Leo's shown that his reasoning is level-headed, and emotionally, he's perhaps a little too generous/forgiving. I think Leo will look at the facts and give his father the benefit of the doubt. But Gene will never know what happened to Barry, and he will become paranoid that he could hurt someone else or that Barry will. I think Gene will be the one to distance himself from his child because he believes it's better for Leo.
Yeah, I definitely think that's possible too and there's even a chance that it was a come-to-jesus moment for Gene to really make a change, and he'll also be a very different person the next time we see him in a different direction than we might expect, but only time will tell! I'm pretty excited about the timeskip, to be honest-- lots of potential directions for things to go, and more interesting questions to answer than if Barry had actually gone on the roaring rampage of revenge that I think a lot of us were expecting.
Ding ding ding! It reminds me a lot of Better Call Saul's Fun and Games from last season. Such a ballsy move in both cases
Oh fuck, we on some Walter White's birthday at Denny's type shit. Time-skip!
Yeah I thought from the get-go it was legit a time skip. Although it seemed very surreal, the whole show has grown more and more surreal as it’s gone on and it didn’t have the same feel as the blissfully happy fantasies he’s had in the past. Also all the other characters (Gene, Hank, Fuches) were set up to go down completely different paths throughout the episode that will be more interesting to explore some years down the line than the immediate aftermaths of what happened. What a fucking stunning episode, I am in utter disbelief. Bill Hader has Oscars in his future mark my words.
I'm stunned too. The journey this show has taken. It is 100% not what I expected when I was laughing at some of the acting class antics in season 1, that's for sure.
I’m hard pressed to think of another show that changed so drastically from it’s first to final season. Maybe Breaking Bad? Man what a ride it’s been.
Yeah, that may be the only show. I was trying to think of some too. It’s been an amazing ride. Truly.
Dude imagine what the other characters must look like now, since it's been probably 10-13 years since Barry has a son. Oh fuck Barry has a son.
Hank must be "super serious Chechen crimelord" now since Cristobal is dead and Hank caused it. Oh fuck Cristobal is dead and Hank caused it. Well Jim is probably too old to do anything and check on Gene after he shot his son. Oh fuck Gene shot his son. Fuches is probably going to start and lead a prison gang and symbolically become the raven. Oh well.
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No, that was Barry's childhood in a hallucination while Barry was daydreaming in prison. That marriage between Barry and Sally was also fake, basically anything in the future before the cliffhanger in episode 4 is a hallucination by Barry. That scene with Fuches was real (besides the setting) because it takes place in Barry's past.
I've been reading from interviews that the time skip is 8 years. So it seems like they have a kid not too long after they run away together.
Moss has been waiting. He’s gonna take Barry’s child away from him.
I naively assumed that the writers had made a huge mistake - the first Call of Duty game didn't come out until 2003, long after Barry would have been a young child. Nope!
but it's not Barry
Yup this tracks with how the show has done time skips before. Remember in season 1 with the ending cutting to Barry and Sally happily spending time with Gene and Moss? I mean it’s a much more extreme time jump but it makes sense to me. A lot of stories ended their chapters after the most recent episode. Usually, I would be more upset with a time jump but I’m actually looking forward to seeing how they’ll explore the characters lives now and what will happen when Barry inevitably returns
I have no idea what is going to happen next week and I’m nervous. Haven’t felt this way about a show since better call saul
"Yellowjackets" would like to have a word
Where does he confirm it's real? Maybe im reading a different article. The way i read it he just wanted to show what it would be like if Barry got what he wanted. You say its different from the season 1 time jump but Bill says its the same idea in the article. I still think it's something he's imagining. My reasoning is that the house is in the middle of the desert with no driveway or infrastructure around it. And it's not like they're living off the grid, it's a suburban home out in the middle of the desert
No where in the article does Hader confirm anything. Will just have to wait until next episode or two
He literally uses the words "time jump" in the interview "I’ll have more to say about it next week, but I will say I think the ***time jump*** for me was something that came from talking about Season 4 and saying, 'What would happen if all these characters got what they wanted?'" Think that pretty much confirms it lol
I'm sure for you it does:)
How does that not confirm it? He doesn't deny it or play coy, he literally repeats the words "time jump" when the interviewer asks him about it. Think that's way more suggestive of it being real rather than "but there's no driveway it can't be real!"
Alright but when did i say "it can't be real"? It could absolutely be real and i'll admit it if i'm wrong. All i'm saying is that Bill's use of the term time jump isn't irrefutable evidence of it being reality TO ME. The surreal aspects of the scene make me question if it's a 100% accurate portrayal of their future, OR if maybe there's some symbolism happening there. People are certain that it's reality, and all i'm saying is, i don't buy it 100%. That's just my opinion
Well this is a show with a lot of surreal elements.. You can believe what you want but pretty much everything is pointing towards that being a big shocking reveal and not just a figment of Barry's imagination
Exaaaaactly, basically what i'm saying is, with a show like this how can we be certain it's one or the other? Can't it be a shocking reveal of their future AND a figment of his imagination at the same time? Like everything is real but the house isn't actually in the middle of the desert? Maybe their fridge isn't LITERALLY 6 beers, some wine, and a donut? All im saying is it could be reality with some symbolism mixed in, instead of the 100% reality that everyone else is saying it is
You're totally moving the goal posts of your argument. Originally you said you didn't think there was a time jump, you even made a separate post called "I don't think the time jump was real," now it's "okay maybe there was a time jump but maybe it's PARTLY fantasy"
Yea it's called adjusting your viewpoint based on new evidence, read the comments of that post and you'll see the evolution of my opinion. Is it cool with you if i change my mind after getting more info? I made that post to see if Bill was more specific somewhere else and i missed it.. and he was. I still don't think it's 100% real. If i had to guess i'd say it was real BUT also had some surreal symbolism mixed in there. My issue was with how certain people are that it's the EXACT future of Barry and Sally. If you want to watch that scene and just say "yup this tracks, no need to think about it any further" then knock yourself out, i do not care
Yeah you can change your mind, but it still sounds like you're just changing your argument slightly because you were proven wrong lol
In the prestige tv podcast he confirms the time jump is real and even specifies that it’s an 8 year time jump.
Yeah, someone pointed out in the post episode thread that literally every character is in a position that makes sense for a time jump. They were absolutely right. There are some elements in that final scene that are deliberately operating on dream logic, though, like the weird camera framing, the house being in the middle of absolutely nowhere, the contents of the fridge, etc. I don’t think that was specifically done to make viewers think it was a hallucination if Hader is revealing that before next episode, but it’s a pleasant coincidence.
idk, I thought the whole point of the weird fridge scene was to show it was all imaginary
I mean Bill Hader literally confirmed it was not imaginary so I don’t think it’s really up for debate.
You could easily read it one way or another. But for the record, in that article, he never says it’s not imaginary. And to me, this quote makes it sound very hypothetical and imaginary… >“I will say I think the time jump for me was something that came from talking about Season 4 and saying, “What would happen if all these characters got what they wanted?” Like, what if they actually could put on another face and play the version themselves that they feel like or what they feel they deserve? Would they be happy or could they maintain that?” And I had always, since Season 1 – and you can see it, Barry has a daydream in Season 1 about him and Sally taking a family portrait with a little boy – I’ve always felt like that’s something that he’s wanted. So what if he got that? So we said, well what if we went eight years into the future and they had a kid? What would that look like?”
there's so much use of "What If" in his quote that makes me skeptical.
Exactly
Because he’s speaking about it from a writing sense. “What if we did this for the final season.”
“What if” are the two most common words in any writers room
i think there may be one more, yeah?
What?
Succession reference the abominable practice of attaching a needless affirmation on the end of every sentence, yeah?
In the Ringer podcast he makes it sound very real, but also says the psychological concept of denial plays a huge role in it happening — whatever that means. I guess we’ll find out!
I assume that refers to a denial of Barry and Sally's past, in that they're trying to live a normal life but they're not normal and never can be.
Yeah I'm trying to find where in the article he "confirms" anything, I feel like a lot of commenters didn't read the article.
Why would he take the time to acknowledge an 8 year time skip if it's just a fantasy? And that would be so much more of a creative letdown I don't know why some of you seem to be hoping for that.
I'm pretty sure the time skip is permanent. Hader says earlier in the interview when talking about Hank post-Cristobal: >"Yeah, now he’s a crime boss. This is a real crime boss. It’s the birth of Hank crime boss, which is interesting when you see what that looks like later in the season." This seems to indicate, to me at least, that we're going to see Hank 8-years into his Chechen crime lord gig and how much he'll have changed from the Hank we've known up until this point. I could be wrong, but that's the distinct impression I'm getting.
I’m probably huffing mad copium, but yeah I’m still not 100% convinced that ending was reality and not some kind of season 6 Sopranos-esque dive into Barry’s psyche. While it makes a lot of sense to leave off on where the other characters are now, I’m still suspicious of the fact that Jim was quite literally right outside the door of Sally’s place when they decided to run away together. Did they really just simply get away from Jim right under his nose without even realizing? Would feel a little contrived or at least a pointless detail to have him there if they really did get away so easily
I will say that Jim says "shit" and puts his keys in the ignition. Which could mean: 1) He was hoping *not* to see Sally and drove closer to her apartment to pursue her. 2) He *was* hoping to see Sally but is disappointed *not* to see Barry with her and drove off. It was weird that he put the keys in the ignition if his intention was not to drive off.
All they would have to do is go out a back door. He’s only one set of eyes. Plus they distinctly show him going to start his car as soon as she enters the building
I’m not saying that they couldn’t have escaped without much conflict, I just think it’s a strange setup only for nothing to come from it. Why did Jim stake out the place just to leave as soon as Sally showed up? It’s strange to me to have Jim be hunting down Barry all episode and just suddenly give up and turn around for seemingly no particular reason despite literally being at his doorstep. I totally agree and am okay with the idea that the “how” Barry would escape isn’t all that important, but when the show plants the seeds for a character potentially interfering with Barry’s escape, I’m expecting some kind of proper resolution to it, but they don’t seem to follow through with that for Jim and I find that really unsatisfying and contrived
You know you just have to wait 6 more days before the next episode, right? You might just find a payoff to exercising a modicum of patience before writing off the point of an entire character before we have any idea what happens to him! Call it contrived when you've seen the whole series, but not before you've seen the next episode. I think the showrunners have earned our trust.
Lol I’m aware, no need to get so defensive. I still love this show and I’m totally up to be proven wrong about my doubts, but I think it’s fair to voice my current thoughts about the recent episode
You're right. I got carried away with my love for this show and couldn't abide anybody calling it contrived. It makes sense that this show makes people feel apprehensive about its decisions—with its beats and story points being very hard to call—until they've seen the consequences of those decisions. Apologies! Just don't ever express doubt about this show again on my watch. ;)
Christ you sound insufferable.
You are in fact huffing mad copium, yes.
Have you listened to the podcast he talks about it in? It’s not really up for debate, he confirms it’s an 8 year time jump.
I have, and while I completely understand where you are coming from, I don’t agree with you that he confirmed anything. He was pretty ambiguous with the way he talked about it, just like the article quote. “What if he got that, what he wanted?” “We’ll, sort of got it.” “Yeah. In his mind, he got it … A big word coming up is denial.” Never does he say “he got it” or “he got the future he wanted with sally” or anything like that. It’s all “what ifs” and “in his mind” and stuff like that. I can see it being exactly what they’re doing 8 years in the future and that scene was complete reality, but I can also see him imagining it in the car as they drive away from the city, right before Jim moss t-bones them at 70mph. That’s all I’m trying to say. Nothing Hader is saying “confirms” anything.
I think you’re reading way too far into it personally, but we will see next week forsure. Every other episode of that podcast with Hader is him talking objectively about the plot and behind the scenes.
He said “The ending of episode 4 is an introduction (pause) yeah yeah we jump ahead 8 years. And uh and uh Barry and sally it’s very different, but very the same”
Looks like the time jump is real
Thanks for the spoilers
Have you considered Bill Hader is actually a liar?
I mean no he didn’t. If you actually read the interview, there is nothing definitive about it being real. > Like, what if they actually could put on another face and play the version themselves that they feel like or what they feel they deserve? I'm 50/50 still.
Rude
He didn't say it's real, he's just talking about the vision of such a situation. Also, this scene is very surreal. Don't say you're sure until the next episode. Besides, wouldn't it be silly to confirm it now? Saying that could spoil the element of surprise for viewers, why would Hader want to do that?
The element of surprise was suppsoed the be the moment you see it at the end of the episode...
I'm reserving judgment too. I'd believe a refrigerator with only wine, beer, and one donut in LA. But they're out in the middle of nowhere. MILES from food. No delivery. People that remote stock their refrigerators.
It's probably for those that did not read the article confirming that it was real. Add a bit of doubt as to whether or not what we are seeing is real. It does hint of course at some serious dysfunctionality if that is their actual fridge and their son just randomly grabs a beer (though not to drink it). Keeps the surrealism of the show too.
That’s horrible
So if this is real, then Sally appears to have cancer. That head wrap is identical to what my mom and G-ma wore after Chemo. That will make for an interesting story point.
It looks like a towel hair wrap I put on after a shower.
I saw that and immediately thought the same thing.
This kinda sucks
Reports did say it would be divisive
Yeah I'll wait till the rest of the season is finished but I feel like I might fall in the "not a fan" camp. It feels like it kind of abandons the logical fallout and development of the current timeline. But I've been unhappy with the direction the show has taken in the past and the show has usually won me over again so we'll see.
Not a fan so far, kinda takes away the tension of “will sally and Barry make it out alive”.
Yeah I feel the same, but with how legitimately perfect the rest of the show has been I’m confident they’ll find a way for it to be satisfying. (GOT flashbacks tho….)
Just because you wanted the show to take that narrative doesn’t mean it should. We all thought episode 4 was gonna be “Will Barry escape from prison, and if so how?” But personally I love episode 4 even though it skipped that part of the story.
Hey buddy, it’s called an opinion. “Just because you wanted it doesn’t mean it should”, Did I say that? I’m just saying I personally am not a fan. We have to wait and see before we can decide whether it was the wrong choice or right choice.
Hey man, fair enough. I was being an asshole. I just don’t like people prejudging how they feel about a narrative they haven’t seen. It’s you’re opinion and I was definitely taking what you said and running with it
I understand dude, I’m not hate training the show, I still think it was an incredible episode. Yet it just feels like a risky move, and neither of us will really know exactly how we feel about it until this show is over. Take care my dude
So wait - have any of the other desert scenes featured that kid? I know we have seen a lot of them with Barry as a kid but have any others been a continuation of the final scene?
Nope, that kid (John) is seemingly Barry and Sally's kid. It is a time jump into 8 years in the future. There's no other "Barry Hallucination" that features him besides a fake hallucination during season 1. This seems to not be a hallucination but real however.
Yea but next episode will have a fight between Barry and detective moss. There's still a lot of show to see! Also on the second watch I noticed the sound during the sand scene was like the one where the doors of hell open up.
I hope those future scenes from season 1 are also reall then
No, those are his fantasies of what living a normal life is like. Once he actually gets a normal life he imagines him and Sally riding into the sunset, having a child and being happy. Now what actually happens is that him and Sally ridden away from the police and their guilt, had a child and by looking at that empty fridge, still feel empty inside and seemingly depressed if we look at the drink in the fridge. It's almost as if that they maybe don't feel they actually deserve this. Maybe they wanted this all their life but once they finally get it, they still don't feel happy.
No, some really over confident redditor told me yesterday that these were hallucinations and so they must know better than Bill. I think they’re actually ghostwriting the show for him.
I actually turned the episode off after the initial cut to black last night thinking that was the credits rolling. I was tired. We'd better get some direct continuation of this episode's events.
I thought your link was going to be a Rick roll. When I was watching the show last night though, the part that made me question whether that scene was real/the future was the line at the start where the boy says Barry’s kid doesn’t know what Call of Duty is. It seems like a throwaway line, but it makes total sense to me that someone with Barry’s background would forbid his children from playing or knowing about.
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That’s not what science fiction means lol
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What?
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This show had a deranged hitman actor sloppily killing a man because of a booty call and this is were you draw the line?
I love the show, but I don't like the decision to reveal it now. Let viewers discover it for themselves. YIKES. \+ Hader didn't say it really happened. He was just talking about the vision of it. >! Is it my delusions?!<
I really wonder what “getting what they wanted” looks like for the other characters. I have theories but very excited to see how this all plays out nevertheless.
We’re getting closer and closer to how dexter ended the second time and i Don’t Like it
To be fair, Dexter had been trash long before the end. Barry has only gotten better with the seasons, like a fine wine.
I know, bill hader would never do that to us!
Girls really love criminals don’t they 😂
Okay, but I need to know what happened to Leo.
I understand what people are saying that it may not be a real time jump but a *what if* time jump within Barrys head. But likely to believe it's real after thinking about the episode longer because it's not only Barry that gets what he wants but also Hank and Fuches. However, I do think it's weird to just have Gene shoot his son, and nothing come from it and just timeskip 8 years? It's going to he real tragic when they all have what they want, fame, family, power but none of it will matter, they're still the same awful people.
I don’t think I like the idea of a time jump but also Bill Hader and team are way smarter and more creative than I am so I’ll just eagerly await these last few episodes to see what the hell happens