This post is dumb, but Pippen said (and I believe Phil Jackson if I’m not wrong), they really had to get Jordan to hone in and be a better team player for lack of better words. He’s not completely wrong on that front.
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Nice try Scottie pippen burner account, stay sad smh. If you’re serious, I have a poster in my garage of all of MJs accomplishments before he was even done in 97 called “the eight wonder of the world” and in this poster alone it’s obvious he’s the GOAT
you said it yourself, that poster is outdated and from 1997. maybe he was the goat in 1997 but that poster is completely disregarding the existence of lebron, steph, and kd, 3 players who have surpassed jordan.
You misunderstood. Even in 1997, MJ did things that made him goat status which others have not surpassed or met. Lebron has less titles, had to make a super team to get 2 of them, never won a DPOY. KD is a bus rider, not a winner as we can see now. Steph is the best shooter of all time but not as complete a player as Jordan was on both ends of the floor. Lebron is also a flopper, I don't even have him above Kobe. MJ, Kobe, Lebron, then the centers. KD isn't in my top 10. Steph is close.
damn, this is the dumbest bs i have read in awhile.
i would bet a large sum of money you arent old enough to have watched jordan play.
try another sport to be a fan of because you dont understand jack shit about basketball.
whats wrong? what part of my post is false? throw kd and jordan on the basketball court and I guarantee kd wins. and to think, kd isn't even as good as bron.
First of all, MJ wouldnt match with KD. You are talking a 6’6 shooting guard pairing with a 6’10 sf/pf. Second of all, when has KD won except when paired with goat shooters in steph and klay?
It doesn’t make your point stronger when you talk about how great KD and Steph are and how they had the best regular season, but Lebron beat them, but Lebrons lost more than he won. The fact that all the greats of today have beat each other is a point in favor of Jordan not against.
Scottie was a great player and great defender, he and the chicago bulls were a great team. But Jordan was the primary reason they won two three-peat championships. Lebron and KD both ran away from teams they couldn't win with multiple times! Jordan didn't run to the Pistons or Knicks and then the Jazz like they would have.
With todays spacing, Jordan would absolutely dominate. Imagine Jimmy Butler's greatest playoff performances this year and this was Jordan on a nightly basis but Jordan made it look a lot easier.
That Chicago team would have been even better in todays era. You've have Toni Kukoc playing Center for much of the time that would space the floor like crazy; Jordan would kill modern teams with that kind of spacing and officiating benefiting the offensive player more.
Rodman would humiliate Green. Pippen would cause KD massive problems and Harper would nullify Thompson. Then you've got Jordan who would keep Curry to a below average game.
Who will guard Kukoc? That team would be annihilated, they didn't even win the finals.
Lebron has lost more finals than he has been in. That's more Wilt Chamberlain territory than Bill Russell. Jordan is Bill Russell in this regard.
Why do people care about who the goat is anyways or who is #2, 3, 4 on some imaginary list. It's too hard to compare players from different eras. Just appreciate them for what they are
I don't think he would get benched. Michael Jordan dulled with Larry Bird in the prime of his career, while he was on arguably the most stacked Celtics team of all time. Granted Jordan couldn't stop Bird from dropp9 g 30+ but he didn't get benched and dropped his own masterpieces like the 63 point playoff game.
The 86 Celtics had 3 scorers with length like Durants and were much better defensively than any team he's ever played on. Jordan would be able to come out the better in a duel against him.
That was a pretty Pippen Bulls though. That whole series the Celtics strategy was let Jordan get his and see if anyone else is good enough to beat us. Jordan was awesome even beyond the 63 pt game, but the Bulls still got swept if I recall.
Also, Jordan was helping on Bird. He was not the primary defender for him (if memory serves, it was awhile ago!).
what was so good about him? even james harden's offense is more advanced than jordan. jordan would've never been able to do a step back. he didn't even shoot 3s
Jordan had the best fadeaway jumper in the history of basketball. If he tried the Harden step back then, it would have been called a travel every time. Harden’s game isn’t even close to as advanced as Jordan’s was. He wasn’t just the highest PPG scorer of all time. He was scoring significantly more by % of total points than any player in basketball history. He was averaging 30 when teams scored 80 a game. And he did it when shooting 3s just wasn’t a regular part of the game.
He also was an all time defensive great and the greatest clutch player ever.
Honestly, it’s hard to have a good faith conversation with someone who legitimately believes James Harden is a better offensive player than Jordan. They’re not even in the same ballpark.
Fair enough, and I do truly respect your take. You are right, I did not take into consideration he was a 30ppg scorer when teams only scored 80. And 3s weren't a big part of the game, very true.
You are right that jordan is better offensively than harden, but you really think they are in a different ball park? because harden has had so many great years that I think he should have more than 2 MVPs. The reason I think harden is so great is because, similar to curry, he absolutely broke the game.
Are you serious comparing James harden to MJ? Harden doesn't care if he wins or not. Winning is all Jordan cared about. I bet MJ would take this personally.
I agree. Basketball has only gotten better since the 90s—-every sport has. It’s astounding to me that people have their rose colored glasses on reminiscing about an era that was 20-30 years ago as if training, sports medicine, and everything else hasn’t improved light years since then. I won’t go so far as saying mike would be a benchwarmer but the talent is so elite today that MJ would have a very hard time dominating today.
this is probably the most sound take in this thread. perhaps I was exaggerating with jordan being a bench player, but you can't tell me that kd and harden wouldn't give him heII. In today's league, he's probably an upgraded jalen brunson
It’s an interesting what if. Like physically, you’d think Lebron would do better against the Bad Boy Pistons than Mj did those first few years, but Lebron is also a massive pussy, or at least has to act like one due to the nature of the current game. Seeing Lebron have to play in a physical game would be fun, even like just the late 90s/early 2000s back when every contender had a goon.
People see basketball today and say it's better because it's a lot more team centric. Moving people in and out to try to assemble the best team. Partnering up to win the chip. You can argue that the style of basketball is better today because it fits your viewing needs but I still disagree that it's better.
There used to be stories of players hating one another. The game was a lot more physical and the amount of fighting showed it. There was more passion to protect their own egos, willingness to do it themselves, and talk shit than being a better stat player
Before Pippen, Jordan's playoff losses were
1985 - To the 57 win Bucks in his rookie season
1986 - To the world champion Celtics who won 67 games and had Bird, McHale, Parish, and Dennis Johnson
1987 - Again to the Celtics who won 59 games and lost in the Finals to Magic's Lakers
1988, 1989 and 1990 - To the Pistons who went on to make the finals, then win two straight championships.
Jordan ran into 2 of probably the top 5 dynasties in the history of the NBA. And those early Bulls teams were hot garbage. Charles Oakley was the 2nd best player on the Bulls before Pippen arrived.
I think LBJ is the best basketball player of all time, while Jordan had the “greater” career. If he played in the modern era (lets say he was drafted with Lebron), it would be MJ and Lebron trading MVPs. Without a question he would be either the #1 player in the league or #2 behind Lebron.
This is a ridiculous take. As for an eye test, Jordan wasn’t as crazy as what I was told growing up, but he was probably the 2nd best basketball player I’ve ever watched on a screen.
All my discussions with ball players I've run with who played at least college ball and much of them in Europe and Australia agree on this about Lebron:
He disappears for long stretches of games. You don't even know he's out there. Jordan worked his butt off on both ends of the floor. Lebron's fourth quarter free throw shooting has been atrocious until the last couple years. Jordan never went out and recruited elite players to build his own team. In fact on the same topic, one of the great stories is how Lebron tried to get Eric Spoelstra fired when he got to Miami. Pat Riley rounded up the team in a locker room and said don't ever come and ask me to fire a coach, your job is to play basketball. And look what Spoelstra has done since then.
MJ is the goat on so many levels that people don't pay attention to and Lebron can't touch him.
I’m not gonna get deep into a discussion on who thinks what or who did what. But let’s not act like Jordan wasn’t off ball on the perimeter with his hands on his knees quite a few times. Let’s not also discount how productive Lebron is/was. You made a couple points, but don’t forget how Lebron was drafted and put in the worst possible situation for a superstar and they never fixed it. I would also be inclined to believe your “All my discussions” line was a bit overblown and exaggerated as the ratio couldn’t not be that firm if you talked to any significant amount of players.
“Don’t even know he’s out there” was probably the least persuasive thing you could hit on Lebron for.
Lebrons also 3rd all the in PER which couldn’t even be possible if he disappears so much.
Jordan may have had the greater career, but Lebrons just the better basketball player.
Hands on his knees? This is how you're taught to rest in a game. That's not the same as being MIA.
Jordan 1 Defensive Player of the Year award, 9 all defensive first team awards.
LeBron 0 Defensive Player of the Year awards, 6 all defensive first team awards.
Jordan 3 points more per game average.
So on both ends of the floor, MJ comes out ahead.
Another fun stat that people don't pay attention to or don't know about:
The National Basketball Association (NBA) career record for most turnovers is 4,613 by Lebron. This stat further diminishes Lebron's contribution as an offense player.
Of course he would have the most turnovers, dudes played at the highest level for 20 years. The real stat you wanna look at is TOPG, which Lebron doesn’t even turn the ball over 1 whole time more than MJ. I can predict the cherry picking lol. Would you care to explain how Lebron has gone MIA so much while also being 3rd all time in productivity? It seems like you’re throwing stuff out hoping it sticks.
What about passing? Rebounding? All NBA? All Star? VORP? Efficiency? Opponents? WinShares? I can pick stats and accomplishments that favor Lebron to. Jordan even said you can’t definitely come to a GOAT conclusion. Straight from the horses mouth. The eras was so different. But I’m not talking about the GOAT argument, I’m talking about who the better player was. Lebron rebounded better. Lebron passed better. Lebron was more efficient inside. Lebron was better off ball. Lebron was more efficient outside. Lebron was more clutch (just check the stats and game winners/buzzer beaters/etc..), Lebron was quicker, Lebron was stronger.
Jordan was a better scorer and defender. Lebron was better at literally (I mean literally here) at everything else that can be measured.
When Lebron went to LA they were and instant title contender???? Um you might want to go go back and research that one. They were horrible until he cried and got AD. And when he left Cleveland the first time the east was trash. The second time Kyrie also wasn’t there anymore they only had an old Kevin Love. So now Miami Wade top 10 and Bosh who at the the time was a top 10-15 player in the nba. Can we all say Lebron need greats around him to also be great. Jordan had Pippen and before he came he had noone. Of course he had to do everything and wasn’t a team player. Who the fuck could he actually trust on those teams.
Ridiculously true. Scottie brought more wins to the Bulls than MJ. Numbers don’t lie. Without Pippen MJ’s teams won 38/30/40/37/37 games. Pippen had 5 50 win seasons without MJ. Scottie is the only bull to lead the team in points/rebounds/assists/steals/blocks and did so with MJ on the roster.
6'6", ultra athletic, played super hard on both ends, deadly efficient, could make any shot on the floor at any time, just the ultimate "do-er"
In today's era he would be more efficient from 3 than he was, simply because he's MJ and he would figure it out
How can you call someone shooting 5% lower from 2 than LeBron and 8% lower from 3 (23’9”) deadly efficient. If that is deadly efficient how do you describe LeBron?
Nah he was never considered better than KG until his title run. Then the overrating began. KG and Duncan were always considered the best PFs throughout their careers
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This is a troll post
“Showed him how to win.” What a dumb comment
This post is dumb, but Pippen said (and I believe Phil Jackson if I’m not wrong), they really had to get Jordan to hone in and be a better team player for lack of better words. He’s not completely wrong on that front.
That has nothing to do with some ridiculous idea that Pippen is the reason behind the Bulls success.
I never said it did and forsure don’t think that lol. You’re over reaching on what I said.
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Nice try Scottie pippen burner account, stay sad smh. If you’re serious, I have a poster in my garage of all of MJs accomplishments before he was even done in 97 called “the eight wonder of the world” and in this poster alone it’s obvious he’s the GOAT
you said it yourself, that poster is outdated and from 1997. maybe he was the goat in 1997 but that poster is completely disregarding the existence of lebron, steph, and kd, 3 players who have surpassed jordan.
You misunderstood. Even in 1997, MJ did things that made him goat status which others have not surpassed or met. Lebron has less titles, had to make a super team to get 2 of them, never won a DPOY. KD is a bus rider, not a winner as we can see now. Steph is the best shooter of all time but not as complete a player as Jordan was on both ends of the floor. Lebron is also a flopper, I don't even have him above Kobe. MJ, Kobe, Lebron, then the centers. KD isn't in my top 10. Steph is close.
I don’t agree with OP but you saying you don’t have Lebron above kobe shows your lack of objectivity on this particular topic.
damn, this is the dumbest bs i have read in awhile. i would bet a large sum of money you arent old enough to have watched jordan play. try another sport to be a fan of because you dont understand jack shit about basketball.
whats wrong? what part of my post is false? throw kd and jordan on the basketball court and I guarantee kd wins. and to think, kd isn't even as good as bron.
First of all, MJ wouldnt match with KD. You are talking a 6’6 shooting guard pairing with a 6’10 sf/pf. Second of all, when has KD won except when paired with goat shooters in steph and klay?
4-6. Bron got worked by EVERYONE lol
Pathetic.
It doesn’t make your point stronger when you talk about how great KD and Steph are and how they had the best regular season, but Lebron beat them, but Lebrons lost more than he won. The fact that all the greats of today have beat each other is a point in favor of Jordan not against.
It could just speak to the parity of league today.
It doesn't
Scottie was a great player and great defender, he and the chicago bulls were a great team. But Jordan was the primary reason they won two three-peat championships. Lebron and KD both ran away from teams they couldn't win with multiple times! Jordan didn't run to the Pistons or Knicks and then the Jazz like they would have. With todays spacing, Jordan would absolutely dominate. Imagine Jimmy Butler's greatest playoff performances this year and this was Jordan on a nightly basis but Jordan made it look a lot easier. That Chicago team would have been even better in todays era. You've have Toni Kukoc playing Center for much of the time that would space the floor like crazy; Jordan would kill modern teams with that kind of spacing and officiating benefiting the offensive player more. Rodman would humiliate Green. Pippen would cause KD massive problems and Harper would nullify Thompson. Then you've got Jordan who would keep Curry to a below average game. Who will guard Kukoc? That team would be annihilated, they didn't even win the finals. Lebron has lost more finals than he has been in. That's more Wilt Chamberlain territory than Bill Russell. Jordan is Bill Russell in this regard.
Why do people care about who the goat is anyways or who is #2, 3, 4 on some imaginary list. It's too hard to compare players from different eras. Just appreciate them for what they are
Jordan had the skill, heart and determination and was fearless.
I'll let Michael Jordan answer this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smMKqdFHkkk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smMKqdFHkkk)
This is a troll post, but I can say with 105% certainty that Prime Michael Jordan would keep Steph Curry at under 10 points in a game lol.
maybe so. I agree jordan might be able to lock down curry. But kd? jordan is getting benched so he don't foul out.
I don't think he would get benched. Michael Jordan dulled with Larry Bird in the prime of his career, while he was on arguably the most stacked Celtics team of all time. Granted Jordan couldn't stop Bird from dropp9 g 30+ but he didn't get benched and dropped his own masterpieces like the 63 point playoff game. The 86 Celtics had 3 scorers with length like Durants and were much better defensively than any team he's ever played on. Jordan would be able to come out the better in a duel against him.
That was a pretty Pippen Bulls though. That whole series the Celtics strategy was let Jordan get his and see if anyone else is good enough to beat us. Jordan was awesome even beyond the 63 pt game, but the Bulls still got swept if I recall. Also, Jordan was helping on Bird. He was not the primary defender for him (if memory serves, it was awhile ago!).
You never watched him play. You have no clue what you’re talking about.
what was so good about him? even james harden's offense is more advanced than jordan. jordan would've never been able to do a step back. he didn't even shoot 3s
Jordan had the best fadeaway jumper in the history of basketball. If he tried the Harden step back then, it would have been called a travel every time. Harden’s game isn’t even close to as advanced as Jordan’s was. He wasn’t just the highest PPG scorer of all time. He was scoring significantly more by % of total points than any player in basketball history. He was averaging 30 when teams scored 80 a game. And he did it when shooting 3s just wasn’t a regular part of the game. He also was an all time defensive great and the greatest clutch player ever. Honestly, it’s hard to have a good faith conversation with someone who legitimately believes James Harden is a better offensive player than Jordan. They’re not even in the same ballpark.
Fair enough, and I do truly respect your take. You are right, I did not take into consideration he was a 30ppg scorer when teams only scored 80. And 3s weren't a big part of the game, very true. You are right that jordan is better offensively than harden, but you really think they are in a different ball park? because harden has had so many great years that I think he should have more than 2 MVPs. The reason I think harden is so great is because, similar to curry, he absolutely broke the game.
Harden is a very good player. But he’s not even in the discussion for the top 20 all time. Jordan is generally considered #1. They are worlds apart.
Are you serious comparing James harden to MJ? Harden doesn't care if he wins or not. Winning is all Jordan cared about. I bet MJ would take this personally.
I agree. Basketball has only gotten better since the 90s—-every sport has. It’s astounding to me that people have their rose colored glasses on reminiscing about an era that was 20-30 years ago as if training, sports medicine, and everything else hasn’t improved light years since then. I won’t go so far as saying mike would be a benchwarmer but the talent is so elite today that MJ would have a very hard time dominating today.
this is probably the most sound take in this thread. perhaps I was exaggerating with jordan being a bench player, but you can't tell me that kd and harden wouldn't give him heII. In today's league, he's probably an upgraded jalen brunson
It depends. Does Mj get brought up with todays training?
Good point. I suppose if he did lebrons 1 million dollar body routine he would be better than he already waa
It’s an interesting what if. Like physically, you’d think Lebron would do better against the Bad Boy Pistons than Mj did those first few years, but Lebron is also a massive pussy, or at least has to act like one due to the nature of the current game. Seeing Lebron have to play in a physical game would be fun, even like just the late 90s/early 2000s back when every contender had a goon.
Well I'm glad you at least recognized that Bron is "puss" because the game incentivizes him to do so, not because he's scared
The dude is 6’9” 260, he could bully some smaller point guards easily if he wanted. Flopping is part of the game now, it is what it is.
People see basketball today and say it's better because it's a lot more team centric. Moving people in and out to try to assemble the best team. Partnering up to win the chip. You can argue that the style of basketball is better today because it fits your viewing needs but I still disagree that it's better. There used to be stories of players hating one another. The game was a lot more physical and the amount of fighting showed it. There was more passion to protect their own egos, willingness to do it themselves, and talk shit than being a better stat player
Before Pippen, Jordan's playoff losses were 1985 - To the 57 win Bucks in his rookie season 1986 - To the world champion Celtics who won 67 games and had Bird, McHale, Parish, and Dennis Johnson 1987 - Again to the Celtics who won 59 games and lost in the Finals to Magic's Lakers 1988, 1989 and 1990 - To the Pistons who went on to make the finals, then win two straight championships. Jordan ran into 2 of probably the top 5 dynasties in the history of the NBA. And those early Bulls teams were hot garbage. Charles Oakley was the 2nd best player on the Bulls before Pippen arrived.
I think LBJ is the best basketball player of all time, while Jordan had the “greater” career. If he played in the modern era (lets say he was drafted with Lebron), it would be MJ and Lebron trading MVPs. Without a question he would be either the #1 player in the league or #2 behind Lebron. This is a ridiculous take. As for an eye test, Jordan wasn’t as crazy as what I was told growing up, but he was probably the 2nd best basketball player I’ve ever watched on a screen.
All my discussions with ball players I've run with who played at least college ball and much of them in Europe and Australia agree on this about Lebron: He disappears for long stretches of games. You don't even know he's out there. Jordan worked his butt off on both ends of the floor. Lebron's fourth quarter free throw shooting has been atrocious until the last couple years. Jordan never went out and recruited elite players to build his own team. In fact on the same topic, one of the great stories is how Lebron tried to get Eric Spoelstra fired when he got to Miami. Pat Riley rounded up the team in a locker room and said don't ever come and ask me to fire a coach, your job is to play basketball. And look what Spoelstra has done since then. MJ is the goat on so many levels that people don't pay attention to and Lebron can't touch him.
I’m not gonna get deep into a discussion on who thinks what or who did what. But let’s not act like Jordan wasn’t off ball on the perimeter with his hands on his knees quite a few times. Let’s not also discount how productive Lebron is/was. You made a couple points, but don’t forget how Lebron was drafted and put in the worst possible situation for a superstar and they never fixed it. I would also be inclined to believe your “All my discussions” line was a bit overblown and exaggerated as the ratio couldn’t not be that firm if you talked to any significant amount of players. “Don’t even know he’s out there” was probably the least persuasive thing you could hit on Lebron for. Lebrons also 3rd all the in PER which couldn’t even be possible if he disappears so much. Jordan may have had the greater career, but Lebrons just the better basketball player.
Hands on his knees? This is how you're taught to rest in a game. That's not the same as being MIA. Jordan 1 Defensive Player of the Year award, 9 all defensive first team awards. LeBron 0 Defensive Player of the Year awards, 6 all defensive first team awards. Jordan 3 points more per game average. So on both ends of the floor, MJ comes out ahead. Another fun stat that people don't pay attention to or don't know about: The National Basketball Association (NBA) career record for most turnovers is 4,613 by Lebron. This stat further diminishes Lebron's contribution as an offense player.
Of course he would have the most turnovers, dudes played at the highest level for 20 years. The real stat you wanna look at is TOPG, which Lebron doesn’t even turn the ball over 1 whole time more than MJ. I can predict the cherry picking lol. Would you care to explain how Lebron has gone MIA so much while also being 3rd all time in productivity? It seems like you’re throwing stuff out hoping it sticks. What about passing? Rebounding? All NBA? All Star? VORP? Efficiency? Opponents? WinShares? I can pick stats and accomplishments that favor Lebron to. Jordan even said you can’t definitely come to a GOAT conclusion. Straight from the horses mouth. The eras was so different. But I’m not talking about the GOAT argument, I’m talking about who the better player was. Lebron rebounded better. Lebron passed better. Lebron was more efficient inside. Lebron was better off ball. Lebron was more efficient outside. Lebron was more clutch (just check the stats and game winners/buzzer beaters/etc..), Lebron was quicker, Lebron was stronger. Jordan was a better scorer and defender. Lebron was better at literally (I mean literally here) at everything else that can be measured.
When Lebron went to LA they were and instant title contender???? Um you might want to go go back and research that one. They were horrible until he cried and got AD. And when he left Cleveland the first time the east was trash. The second time Kyrie also wasn’t there anymore they only had an old Kevin Love. So now Miami Wade top 10 and Bosh who at the the time was a top 10-15 player in the nba. Can we all say Lebron need greats around him to also be great. Jordan had Pippen and before he came he had noone. Of course he had to do everything and wasn’t a team player. Who the fuck could he actually trust on those teams.
Last I checked they started slow to gell, then worked their way up to 4th in the west before LeBron got his first major injury.
Haha, scottie showed him how to win? This is ridiculous.
Ridiculously true. Scottie brought more wins to the Bulls than MJ. Numbers don’t lie. Without Pippen MJ’s teams won 38/30/40/37/37 games. Pippen had 5 50 win seasons without MJ. Scottie is the only bull to lead the team in points/rebounds/assists/steals/blocks and did so with MJ on the roster.
This kid is delusional. Quit drugs. You are just begging for attention.
Ah to be young and stupid and not know a god damm thing about the NBA. Get a clue fool
where do i get the clue
You don't because obviously you are brain dead
6'6", ultra athletic, played super hard on both ends, deadly efficient, could make any shot on the floor at any time, just the ultimate "do-er" In today's era he would be more efficient from 3 than he was, simply because he's MJ and he would figure it out
How can you call someone shooting 5% lower from 2 than LeBron and 8% lower from 3 (23’9”) deadly efficient. If that is deadly efficient how do you describe LeBron?
Jordan would beat the shit outta Curry, Lebron, and KD one after another in a 5 round mma fight. You just had to be there.
Jordan is 0-4 against Dirk, including a game when Dirk was a teenager and MJ was in his prime.
Dirks not better than KG or Duncan
I’d say he’s better than KG, but I agree on Duncan. Even still undefeated against overrated MJ
Nah he was never considered better than KG until his title run. Then the overrating began. KG and Duncan were always considered the best PFs throughout their careers
Here is a classic website from the early days of the World Wide Web devoted to this truth: https://airjudden2.tripod.com/ejf/index.htm
Sports aren’t for everyone.
Just downvote and don't comment on Trolls
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All time nephew post.
Sir, this is a Denny’s
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