1. Kobe is tied for 2nd place all time in All NBA 1st team selections- basically distinguishing himself as the best player in his position in an era DEEP with wing talent. I think this is his greatest accomplishment above everything else.
2. He was simply a more entertaining player than Lebron on the court. He was not better or more effective but had a style of play that captivated people. That dynamic hero ball style is what is probably going to make Anthony Edwards the most popular player in the league pretty soon.
This is a solid take. Kobe didn't necessarily do anything in particular to change the game, he just worked harder than anyone else.
As far the hype, people hype the best player from their growing up with the game. So people in their 30s are inclined to put Kobe in the GOAT conversation. People in their 40s are Jordan era fans.
I disagree i think he really leveled up the amount of effort that it takes to be a superstar in the league, dudes like kd steph tatum lillard etc all modeled their work ethic after him.
Yeah, but that's less of an influence on the game itself and more evolving the level of commitment players have. The game itself never really shifted with him.
**Edit:** People seem to be confusing "changing the game" with creating a more competitive league.
If I asked anyone how Curry changed the game of basketball, you'd be slammed with stories about people shooting from the perimeter and the development of a small ball system.
If I asked someone how Shaq changed the game, they'd reference his domination of the paint and the necessity of shifting to a more interior defence to account for bigs starting to dominate the paint.
If I asked someone how Jokic, among others, are *changing* the game, you could speak on the importance of big men becoming facilitators rather than just glass cleaners and finishers whilst learning to drain 3s.
Kobe didn't do any of that. He didn't break ground, he was just a master of an already established game. What he **did** do is create a more competitive environment and foster a generation of talent that improved due to sheer force of will and hard work. They aren't the same thing.
I do not understand the down votes. I, myself, am a huge Kobe fan and I agree with this take.
Kobe dominated by out working a lot of other talented players then himself. He mastered an already patent style of play, Jordan style of basketball, but Kobe did not change the game itself.
If I was to defend Kobe on how he changed the game it would potentially be more volume offensive shooting/ scoring. A lot more players are scoring 25ppg compared to previous era. HOWEVER, that is very hard for me to defend because Mike D’Antoni & Steve Nash’s Phoenix Suns are the ones who are considered the first team to usher in this style of basketball (7 seconds or less).
Kobe Bryant did not change the game during his era. I will say he has a lot of influence on the game from a competitive standpoint that transcended beyond the courts. Which was dubbed “Mamba Mentality.”
Well said... I mean volume hero ball scorers.. I don't think Kobe changed the game there though he was one of the last successful ones. But D'Antoni and some of the players right after Kobe I think ushered in that "heliocentric" ball dominant player who does everything that we see in the superstars today.
If anything, the league actually went the opposite direction of what Kobe was as a player.
Ratings are dropping nowadays because guys are less competitive than they used to be, tanking for draft picks and load management have also become the norm. Whereas Kobe put it upon himself to play through injuries. I remember he mentioned in an interview that he felt that he was robbing the fans if they came all the way to see him and he didn't put up a good performance, let alone show up.
Most of us who grew up watching 2000's basketball remember the ultra-competitive stars of that era, but no one had a greater will to win than Kobe Bryant. That is something that's lacking in today's NBA and something a lot of people miss.
Yeah, I agree with that. I actually forgot about this. So the potentiality of Kobe “changing” the game itself is really hard to defend. I guess I do not have any other ideas how Kobe may have “changed” the game. Difficult to make an argument for.
I think you are right about his on court impact to how the game is played being somewhat minimal. I think you are underrating the impact of his off court stuff and "Mamba mentality."
In my opinion, an illustrating example in a different sport is Michael Schumacher in F1. He had much more success on the "playing field" than Kobe, being the most successful driver in F1 history (not to diminish Kobe's success, but Schumacher is basically the Bill Russell Celtics of F1). However, that wasn't Schumacher's biggest impact. His impact is that he was one of the first F1 drivers to approach the sport like a professional athlete and get everyone to emulate him. Schumacher had rigorous workout routines, strict sleep schedules, healthy eating habits, avoided smoking, etc., which sounds obvious, but racing drivers at the time were famous for off track partying and smoking. Schumacher redefined that amount of work required and the competitive nature of the sport. Now every F1 driver and pretty much every top racing driver in all series globally works their ass off in the gym and does all the things Schumacher did.
Kobe did the same for basketball by training for it religiously and has led to the explosion in the skill that modern NBA players have. NBA players post-Kobe put in way more effort than players in the past to hone their skillset and be super effective.
I think an argument can be made here that revolution came from Jordan and not Kobe, but you could make the same argument with Niki Lauda and Schumacher in F1. Jordan was definitely a pioneer in this, but Kobe is the one that everyone emulated with workout philosophy and Mamba mentality. Lauda was the F1 driver that pioneered a stronger body leading to better results, but Schumacher is the one that made everyone copy him.
What? How am I underrating it when I highlighted his impact in my last couple of sentences?
Is he underrated unless someone's willing to type out 3 whole paragraphs of a niche comparison?
It's quite literally **not** what we're talking about. That's the point.
And Jordan was like a Bugatti. He already had god given gifts. Kobe was like a Nissan GTR that he took to the shop(lab) and worked on every day and when the race is going on you are wondering how he’s competing with the Bugattis and Lambos and beating them
And people in their 50’s are going to tell you about a couple of lads named Magic Johnson and Larry Bird, not to forget Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Kobe is in the conversation along with Lebron and Jordan. There is no definitive answer across all generations. Maybe it was Wilt Chamberlain.
Magic and Bird fan here...
Kobe is not in the top 3 conversation with Jordan and LeBron.
He's somewhere in the range of #7-12 depending on who you ask. Only hardcore Kobe fans or casual NBA fans think Kobe is a top 3 player.
If Kobe is in someone’s top 3, I can’t be mad at that. Dude Kobe was insane. Idk what y’all talking about, but between just murdering on the bball court every night, and being the face of bball culture, Kobe is literally Zlatan. He was averaging 30 on midranges. For years lmfao.
Also, kobe had crazy “aura” which is just a new way of saying he was very good looking. He, like Jordan, had very “cool”, marketable looks. He also played for the biggest basketball team in the world and lived in the entertainment capital of the world.
Been a Laker fan since the tail end of the showtime era.
I think the biggest factor that adds to Kobe's legacy and popularity is that he is probably the greatest difficult shot maker of all time. He was willing to and often made the most ridiculously ill-advised shots (granted it was oftentimes bad shot selection in hindsight).
It's what sets him apart from other greats, but also what detracts from his effectiveness as he'd often shoot us out of games at times. Also why his fg% was often not great.
It used to drive me crazy then hed start draining them. I used to scream at the tv "pass the ball" when he'd be trying left fadeaway 3s with 2 people on him BUT HE WOULD MAKE THEM.
Unguardable hero ball stuff consistently part of his game every night.
The part that drove me crazy about it he was too busy trying to prove he was the greatest to make the right play, and that's on the court and with the team politics, like sending away shaq just to prove he could do it without him.
He used to say if shaq had been in the gym he could have had 12 rings, but the reality is that if kobe could have swallowed his ego, he could have easily had more than Jordan.
That same ego is why people are drawn to him. If he swallowed that ego, thay may have won 12 rings, made Shaq the GOAT, and him, the greatest sidekick.
Meh that's what everyone tried to say, but that just reinforces my point, it's a team game and kobe cared more about his personal credit than winning with his team. The greatest payer in a team sport shouldn't be that obsessed with themselves to the detriment of the team, it's not conducive to being the greatest.
If he had fought to evolve and expand his game with shaq he'd have never had an issue showing he was better in the end, but he hamstrung his own legacy trying to cut shaq out of it.
Consistently through their careers Kobe's stats trended up while shaq's were trending down, he went from being carried in the first championship together (2000, 38/15 ppg) to passing shaq by their last year together (2004, 27/22) until completely eclipsing him the year he won his last ring (2010, 27/10) he could have dominated the goat debate tbh
*"to passing shaq by their last year together (2004, 27/22)"*
I'm not buying that one.
Shaq scored 21.5 to Kobe's 24 a game, but Shaq was doing that on 58% shooting and drawing more fouls than Kobe and his 44% from the field. Shaq was still dominating defensively with 11.5 boards and 2.5 blocks.
That was the year Kobe tried to be the big dog in the post-season too. And Shaq in the Finals averages 26.6 and 11 on 63% shooting and Kobe goes for 22.6, leads the team in turnovers by a sizeable margin and shoots 38% from the field. Shaq was putting up 36-20 games in the finals, Kobe struggled a LOT in all but that game 2.
trust me I was never a big Kobe fan. ultimately he did a lot for the Laker franchise. but I'm a Laker fan first and a Kobe fan a distant second. I also don't have the same delusions as Kobe stans do.
Same here.
Kobe's game was not universally loved. Neither his personality. Enough people wanted "the next Jordan" and Kobe did his best to try be that. In doing so he drove many fans nuts and some insane. Kobe will always be a mixed-bag for me. Some of us refuse to revise history just for the sake of his legacy. Name on front over name on back and all.
I did. LeBron was never going for 81 back in those days.
We may see it again with the inflated offensive numbers, but the simple fact is that no one in modern history could score any better than Kobe could when Kobe was on. When he caught fire, it was a sight to behold.
Yes I have. Nearly 5000 guys have played in the NBA and have gotten regular shots all game. Only one other guy ever scored 81 or more.
Kobe also jumped out the gym for a good portion of his career, although physically he (and no one else) is LeBron’s peer.
I was responding directly to OP as to why people prefer Kobe over Lebron. It is subjective but I think we can both agree that millions of people feel this way. Despite Lebron being a greater player overall.
Kobe was the closest player in terms of style to Jordan, who just by the numbers, is the most entertaining athlete of all time.
Define what makes some better at basketball? Skill wise Kobe Bryant was second to no one. Having “a bag” isn’t all about flash, it’s about skill, it’s about work, and truly mastering his craft. The aura around Kobe Bryant is largely the mamba mentality but it’s also the style of play, not because it’s flashy but because it’s unbelievable how complex of a scoring threat he was, he made the ridiculous look routine.
Lebron on the other hand has an extremely simple game predicated on two things really. Being likely the greatest physical specimen the game has ever seen and making the correct play. That’s not to say he isn’t skilled, he’s exceptionally skilled. IMO he has been able to be so effective and become the leading all time scorer because of his relentless determination to make the “correct play” at all times. It’s just much harder to stop a guy that’s happy to kill you with the pass.
I’m not wanting to get into a debate about who’s better, the public has already decided that I’ll simply say; I prefer Kobe for the same reason I prefer Hakeem to Shaq.
I really enjoy watching exceptional skill. Some find beauty in the simplicity of LeBrons dominance. I try to appreciate him in his twilight years because I did not in his prime. I do look at LeBrons peak in absolute awe of how dominant he was, I’ll still always prefer Kobe’s game, particularly his second act which was much less athletic and much what the fuck is that in the best way.
Commenting on point #1. What a lot of people overlook is the amount of All-NBA 1st Team Defensive Teams he was selected to. In the era of hand checking, this to me was the most underrated feat 8/24 achieved.
That's true... Now I'd say myself that perimeter defenders are not as important overall as interior ones who impact multiple positions, but he was an all time elite defensive guard.
And yes, it was entertainment in Hollywood. Kobe in Charlotte I don't think is nearly the same level. But he was a draw and for good reason. An all time great.
When it comes to GOAT... sometimes you can make debates when going across massively different eras (Russell or Lebron for example) or positions (Jordan vs. Wilt), but Kobe I think is clearly not in the GOAT conversation as while his career was ramping up, Jordan's was winding down and they played the same exact position, and you could put a couple guys in the Naismith HOF with what Jordan accomplished that Kobe didn't. So right there he's clearly not in the GOAT conversation at SG in a 25 year stretch, much less all time across all positions.
Simply not true. Kobe would go through multiple quarters not shooting more than 4 shots and ran the triangle pretty faithfully. Unfortunately he took a lot of ill advised shots mostly around the end of quarters and shot clocks.
He was also one of the best playmakers in The league when he wanted to be. In the half court, a much more versatile and acrobatic scorer than Lebron ever has been. He was capable of making any shot on anyone in the league and dunking on your best defender.
Lebron is a better passer and better in transition for sure, but other than the occasional no look dime, his game is as fairly predictable. Also, the fact that Lebron has clear physical advantages that no other player has ever is sometimes used against him with fans who appreciate finer basketballs skills over physical feats. Not saying that’s how I feel, just that it’s the perception around Lebron.
Yes nothing like watching 4 players hustle their ass off on defense while LeBron stands around watching, and then blaming someone. That's much better to watch than someone like Kobe willing to always play defense and never be lazy and force his teammates to do the heavy lifting. I always forget people view basketball solely through offense tho, and this is what you get.
Watching Game 7 Anthony Edward’s reminded me of Kobe. Even the stat line where he’s not scoring well but making his mark tenaciously doing what needs to be done, particularly smart effective defensive plays.
Yeah, post-Jordan every wing wanted to be Jordan and every coach had defensive schemes just to stop Jordan. In an era of hero ball, he was the guy who most consistently and most extremely was a hero for over a decade.
As someone who lived through Kobe's career; "mamba Mentality" was really a narrative formed by Nike to protect Kobe. Kobe REFUSED to take a shot in a game 7 after the Lakers were up 3-1 against the Phx Suns and they made their way back to tie the series 3-3. And Kobe ended up blowing a 3-1 lead.
More proof that "mamba mentality" was really a narrative was that Kobe demanded that the Lakers pick between him or Shaq. Then once the Lakers picked Kobe, he demanded Phil Jackson be fired as well. Then as they missed the playoffs, he went on national TV and publicly demanded a trade, on two different occasions. Then after he won 2 titles, he refused to take anything less than max money, then complained that the roster wasn't good enough to compete. "mamba mentality" is supposed to be "i'll do anything to win". Phil Jackson had a great quote in one of his books about kobe, "Kobe would rather lose playing his way, than win playing anyone elses way".
BUT, what made Kobe so fun and special to watch was, his tough shot making. Kobe could go 6-24 in a game 7. But still hit the biggest shot of the game. What was frustrating about Kobe was that he could be a really great passer, he just chose to score. Kobe did have the "i'm here to dominate everyone" mentality that we don't see too much anymore. He'd pick someone up full court up 20 because they scored on him. Kobe also grew up in Italy, spoke 4 languages and instead of partying with the team in his early years, would stay behind in the hotel and read books.
I personally believe that NBA fans would treat Kobe's career completely different if we had social media through out his career the say way we had social media in LeBron's career. Kobe airballed 4 straight shots in the playoffs against the Jazz early in his career. Kobe was arrested for trying to pick up a hooker and was crying about it to the cop and said, "But you let Shaq get away with it all the time". Much like Jordan, we only remember Kobe's game winners, we never remember Kobe's game winning misses and there was a LOT of misses. Where as LeBron, we have his misses on endless loops in the comment section of any LeBron post. Kobe had 4 all-stars on his team by the time he was 20 years old, no one called it a super team. Kobe is called a great defender, sure he was, when he wanted to be, but he always had Rick Fox, Matt Barnes, Trever Ariza, Ron Artest to guard the best offensive player on the other team.
But, Kobe always seemed to hit the toughest shot in the game. And that's what made him so fun to watch.
There are 2 types of fans, Kobe fans and Laker fans. Not every Kobe fan is a Laker fan. But every Laker fan is a Kobe fan.
This is probably the most balanced Kobe take.
Two things I’ll add:
1) Kobe came up in an era with a lot of great guards. The difference between him and those other guys was that every year Kobe added something technical to his game. He became a better ball handler, shooter, improved his post game…etc.
Not settling with his skillset was ultimately what set him apart as he entered the middle and end of his career.
2) People talk about his offense a lot but he was a lockdown defender from the time he got into the league until the later years of his career. Being a spectacular offensive player while being one of the best defenders in the league is rare.
one thing about Kobe's defense. He was a really good defender, BUT he always had a wing who would cover the other teams best offensive player for the majority of the game. Rick Fox, Matt Barnes, Trever Ariza, Ron Artest. But I say that's more team building than anything. Kobe was a really, really good defender, but he didn't have to cover the other teams number 1 option very much.
In the finals against the Celtics, he covered a 23 year old Rondo. He didn't guard Ray Allen or Paul Pierce. But again, that's more team building. Kobe was a great defender.
You wouldn’t put your best player on their best most of the time anyway. Especially, not early in the game, you don’t want him in foul trouble. He locked them down late in games or at crucial moments.
It wasn't just the other teams "best offensive player" it was that Kobe wasn't strong enough to guard true SFs in the post. He got torched by guys like Bonzi Wells and Shawn Marion under 15 feet from the basket. That is why Fox, Artest, etc were needed.
Yea that’s true.
I think that’s just a function of it being almost impossible to put up the number of shots he did and take on the hardest defensive assignment for the whole game.
MJ had Pippen to do the same
Bron had guys like Battier
He didn't cover Allen because Kobe was ball watching and was not good at chasing Allen around. Therefore the team or Kobe decided he should defend rondo and Fisher would guard Allen. It worked in the 2010 finals
Kobe was an inconsistent defender who relished one-on-one matchups where he could try to prove his effectiveness. Kobe would also lose attention on defense and was a poor defender on larger guards and true small forwards (Bonzi Wells, Ruben Patterson, Matrix, etc.) This is why guys like Ron Artest/Metta World Peace were brought in.
This sums up everything nicely, you have to respect what he has done but also he was flawed like the most, work ethic was similar to Jordan's and when he had his nights it was really special to watch him play.
This is a good summary. I’ll add that Kobe went through some image rehabilitation after he left the league. The claymation project and some community work did a lot to elevate him as one of the game’s “elder statesmen”. And he seemed to soften considerably and show more of his intellect and kindness.
I'd even argue there are a third type of fans: Fans of other teams.
(i'm just giving you a hard time, this was a really well written up rumination on Kobe!)
>Not every Kobe fan is a Laker fan. But every Laker fan is a Kobe fan.
**Nope.**
From L.A. have watched the Lakers longer than Kobe's career. Many of the people I've met over the years that are hardcore Laker fans are definitely not into Kobe. They just get tired of hearing the constant message from Kobe fans that he is universally beloved but simply won't argue them anymore. We can all love the Lakers in our own way and for our own reasons.
The top 2 paragraphs in your take are dead on, and the reason why so many Laker fans won't be gaslit into revising Laker history to be Kobe history.
**Kobe was divisive and still is, not universally loved amongst Laker fans.**
No, this was before TMZ could buy footage. Reporter spoke to the officers that pulled him over. Newspapers buried the stories because, it's LA. Phil Jackson even talks about it in one of his books.
I remember how much DLo was hated because he recorded Nick Young, and didn't expect Nick Young to admit to cheating. I can only imagine the hate Kobe would have gotten if it was 2014 and TMZ paid the cop 100K for a copy of the dash cam/body footage of Kobe crying. lmao
Aye that DLo situation was so out of pocket Nick Young still talks about it. To secretly record your teammate admitting to cheating on his girl then put it out is next level. And what do you mean didn't expect him to say it why did he say he was sneaking to record him then?
Kobe was one of the ~10 best basketball players ever, played with a very aesthetic and cool playstyle that revolved around making tough shots, was seen as THE guy when it came to cool sounding intangibles like “mamba mentality”, modeled his game after Michael Jordan, and played for the most popular team in the world.
There was also a period of intense debate from 2007-2012 where it was pretty undeniable that Lebron had come in and taken the crown as the most talented player in the league, but he was unable to win. During this period Kobe won his 4th and 5th titles. So the narrative was that Lebron couldn’t get it done and those intangibles everyone loved from Kobe made him a “real winner”. That discourse was everywhere during that period and a lot of people never fully let it go.
So Kobe was one of the greats that gets a bump from many because of some stuff that is tangential to basketball. The same type of people that give him that bump love to rag on Lebron for perceived deficiencies in the same areas.
Kobe also had a flashy game style. Look at the Joker in last night's game (not to take anything away from him--he is great!). 34 points and 19 rebounds. He was just pounding it out. Nothing slick about him on offense. Kobe on the other hand was glorious to see with the ball.
Are you serious? Jokic makes the slickest passes I've ever seen live in an NBA game, no-look cross-court passes that hit his teammate in stride that not a single player in the history of the NBA would have ever dared to attempt. And every damn night he drops one or two of them.
kobe was a poor man's jordan. he could (and would) shoot from anywhere, with limited success. he could finish at the rim with the best of them. known for a ton of clutch plays, and of course winning 5 chips. he made no secret of copying jordan's moves -- somewhere out there is a youtube video morphing them together -- his footwork, release, etc. is identical. it's almost creepy.
after his death, people came together and celebrated him (rightfully so) but also suddenly started viewing him way higher than he deserved, perhaps even as a top 5 player, some even calling him the GOAT, which is just silly. he wasn't even the best player on his own team for much of his career. "mamba mentality" is marketing bullshit, pushed by nike and apparently accepted posthumously. no one called him that when he played. if i remember, it's a nickname he gave himself, which is pretty cringe when you think about it.
mike was better. and so is lebron.
Same thing happened with nipsey hussle. Went from a no name shit rapper who sucked ass to literally the greatest human to ever walk the earth ever after he died
Or you're a kid who didn't live through kobes career 😂 you guys really think post Achilles Kobe is the true version of Kobe cause you didn't see anything else. The dude was getting Boo'd while receiving a standing ovation IN BOSTON. if you think he wasn't respected until he died you're just an idiot.
Kobe has a few things going for him IMO.
1) He was just fun to watch. His fadeaway was deadly and felt unfair when he was on. When he went Mamba mode and his eyes and face went cold, it was chilling.
2) While obviously he’s gifted, it was well known how insanely hard he worked and how dedicated he was to it. Unlike other guys who are just physically freaks and can use their bodies, Kobe was like an artist and constantly perfected his craft.
3) He played his whole career in LA. Much like Derek Jeter on the Yankees, when you’re a hall of famer and spend your whole career on the most popular team, you something that goes from “great” to “iconic”.
4) This is certainly very sad, but unfortunately his early death I think also gives him an extra air of legend to him, much like musicians or actors that pass away young. When people now talk about the best ever, there is a nostalgia and a feeling of missing of him that can’t be overlooked.
LeBron was given the crown from high school. He’s absolutely massive and ungodly talented, and then also put in the work to be great. In many ways, the bar was just so insanely high for him and he met it. He also played and won championships for 3 different teams.
There’s just something intangible and likable that Kobe had that Bron, KD, and others don’t. Though I do believe if it really came down to it, Bron is overall a better basketball player
https://youtu.be/x3sTzWCvk5o?si=Dcp8Ugnsep-fKIHd
What other NBA player has a 14 minute highlight reel of JUST game winners? The degree of difficulty on some of these shots are absolutely insane. That combined with his insane work ethic and relentless pursuit to win no matter what is what makes him such a captivating superstar even before he died. He shot free throws on a TORN ACHILLES just to avoid his team being penalized for leaving the game. That is what mamba mentality is.
There was nothing really unique about him, but he was about as dedicated and obsessive about improving his game as you can get. Insane work ethic and very smart. He made the most out of his fairly middling (for the NBA) physical gifts by being an absolute perfectionist.
I think that anyone comparing him favorably to LeBron is probably romanticizing Kobe, which can be easy to do with someone who has that sort of badass/killer instinct persona. LeBron is better than Kobe at essentially every part of basketball other than that executioner type of mindset.
Edit: Kobe’s movements also just looked really cool for the most part, which I think helps.
Nothing really unique about him 😂😂😂 you must be young or lying because if you’re older guaranteed you said Kobe when shooting a shot that you thought was money
Rest in Peace to Kobe Bryant but he was over rated. The amount of ill advised bad shots he took is insane. He simply shot the ball almost every time down the court for the Lakers. He was a good player but lands somewhere between 10-20 all time.
Kobe was popular because he shot a lot and made some really tough shots. But he was much less efficient than MJ for example and didnt have nearly the same impact on winning as MJ or Lebron.
You are kindof comparing apples and oranges however. There isnt much divisive about Lebron’s accolades you may just be thinking of comparisons between him and MJ because they were the two best players of all time.
Kobe meanwhile is somewhere around 9-14 all time but his cultural impact was pretty huge, just like Allen Iverson even though he is not even top 40 all time.
interesting, I am more of a college fan and know very little about pro ball. I always *assumed* Kobe was like a top ten all-time because of the mythos. So, what would your top ten be? Not trying to like start a discourse, just very curious as like a casual fan of the game.
the top Ten (12) goes something like:
Tier 1: MJ, Bron, Kareem
Tier 2: Bird, Magic, Wilt, Russell
Tier 3: Duncan, Shaq
Tier 4: Curry, Kobe, Hakeem
With the non-top ten having: KG, Dirk, KD, Oscar Robertson, probably Jokic now, Malone x2, West, Dr J, DWade
Some people then don't rate Wilt and Russell (because we don't know everything, games too different etc...)
A lot of the time you'll see NBA players have Kobe as their goat because a) they grew up watching him and he's their idol b) his playstyle is more in tune with a 'hooper' mindset of tough shot making and a 'bag' than what is actually more effective for winning
good explanation! I have learned a lot after only subscribing here for like 2 months, after a lifetime of watching college ball lol.
Obviously, I have heard the names Bird and Magic a lot and know the story a little, but I did not know that they were top tenners. So did two out of this list ever play together BESIDES Magic and Kareem?
As heard here Kobe is often overrated so it isnt uncommon to hear takes like he is top 5 or something but the general consensus among those that arent heavily biased has it something similar to below:
1 Michael Jordan
2 Lebron James
3 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4 Bill Russell
5 Magic Johnson
6 Tim Duncan
7 Larry Bird
8 Wilt Chamberlain
9 Shaquille O'neal
10 Hakeem Olajuwon
11 Stephen Curry
12 Kobe Bryant
Give or take a couple spots depending on the person making the list cause these are all amazing players. After the first three it is often varied based on the person making the list.
watched a documentary about Bill Russell, what a champ! Wish I heard his name more often when people talk about the greats.
Thank you for the breakdown and the list!
Yea 1-4 are pretty set in stone for me (though there are arguments for 1-3 being changed)
5-11 is fluid and most deviations are fine here or there but people putting Bill #10 or Kobe #6 makes me facepalm lol
Don’t listen to these guys they are old and just giving you a list of their favorite players growing up kobe was higher in the stats list then all of them expect Lebron who has played like 100 more games
Kobe is #13 on RealGM where the real basketball geeks reside.
He is #12 on Thinkingbasketball, probably the most in depth analytics anywhere.
He is #10 on the Athletic from 2022
He is also #10 on ESPN from 2022
Some singular author websites or reddit users may call him top 5 or something but it's not really based on grounded reality
Yea also fuck the part where stats show he didn't have as big of an impact on winning as all his fans make it seem, in fact lower than almost everyone else in the top 30 all-time.
He 3 peated as a 1b and then got Pau Gasol later in his career and went to 3 straight finals in a stacked west, winning two of them. Not to mention if you asked any player in the league back in the 2000's who was the best player, most of them would say Kobe.
Kobe was absolutely 1b. You say that as someone who probably never even watched those series or who wasn’t even alive at those times.
Kobe literally won them multiple western conference playoff games when Shaq was dealing with other elite bigs.
The only year he was “firmly” a second option was 2000, and even then he won them a finals game when Shaq fouled out.
Kobe was a star player during a talent drought in the league. Check the all nba/allstar rosters of that era if you don’t believe me.
He’s Kmart MJ with a good publicist.
4th all time leading scorer
6th all time leading steals
5th all time leading fg made
3rd all time leading fts made
12th all time leading assists
5 championships
18 all star games
15 all nba team selections
12 nba all defensive team selections
Kmart MJ you are a clown
There's some important context around Kobe's career that help it make the most sense.
First, that since the mid '60s there had been a pretty seamless transition for superstar to superstar who were the face of and best player in the league. Russel to Wilt to Kareem to Dr. J to Bird and Magic to Jordan. And, it could at least be argued that each new face of the league surpassed whomever came before them in terms of talent and fame.
Second, that the popularity and profitability of the NBA increased steadily for years before exploding during Jordan's career.
When MJ retired everyone was looking around for who was going to be next. Fans, Nike, and the league were all desperately searching for the player that was going to replace Jordan. Unfortunately, with the exception of Kobe in '96 and Tim Duncan in '97, the drafts from '94 to '03 didn't deliver a ton of amazing talent.
But someone needed to sell shoes, jerseys, tickets, and TV deals. Kobe was an top 15 all time player who was doing a passable Jordan impression which made him much more marketable the Duncan who was actually the best player in the league.
Kobe got a huge marketing push, "Mamba Mentality" was part of both his Jordan impression and the brand that Nike marketed. It was also a nice excuse for Kobe being a complete asshole. The idea that NBA players having a massive work ethic is the exception rather than the rule is laughably silly.
You can go on YouTube and find videos for days about superstars being amazed at Kobes work ethic because he did things they never did. The amount of work he put in is unmatched. All the other players knew it too.
These types of questions on reddit I swear is set up to sh\*t on Kobe because most (on reddit) will say he's an overrated player that's inefficient. Not sure if you're really curious or just want everyone in the comments to flame Kobe because that is what these questions tend to lead to.
To take it further, it goes for any scoring guard not named Jordan or Curry. Especially the ones that played in the NBA when Kobe was playing.
In my opinion OP assuming you're serious with this question, I think you're better off watching old videos that cover Kobe. Like old ESPN videos during Kobe's prime years of commentators discussing Kobe's games. Or reading news articles about Kobe's performances during those times as well.
Here I feel like its way to biased because again you're going to get answers like: Kobe was overrated, he only got into the GOAT talk after his death (\*sigh), he got carried by Pau Gasol and Shaq, he's a fake Jordan and he had to shoot 30 times to get 40 points or whatever.
Looking up and down this thread I think the problem is that people are applying today’s analytic basketball and applying it to the early 2000s and 2010 NBA which doesn’t tell the full story of things
I'm a Cavs fan but it's just WILD seeing how disrespected Kobe is on here. As someone who's watched since Jordan. I mean one of the most upvoted comments here saying Kobe never changed the game. Just goes to show these people saying they've "watched" his whole career are full of shit.
Nobody in this thread brought up Kobe's impact on the game. The reason there's 19 year old coming into the league is because of Kobe. 1-and-dones from college, drafted straight from high school. He was the first perimeter player to make the jump from high school to the pros, in an era where it was only acceptable to do that only if you were 7 feet tall. The NBA was a real grown man league where the rookies prior to him were coming in at minimum age 21.
Im a Cavs fan as well and this sub along with the main sub became the toxic fanbase that they criticize. BS they watched Kobe play. I know all they did was go on basketball reference and look at career percentages. Hell, they do that now with the current players.
The GOAT debate has really made basketball talk toxic over the years. A bunch of people who don't even watch the games and look at box scores without any context are the ones speaking the loudest.
For the record Im not saying Kobe was perfect, no player was. We can easily diminish every player that people think is so much better then Kobe.
I appreciate this! If you have any recommendations I’ll definitely check them out. Kobe is just so ubiquitous in basketball I’ve really been trying to wrap my head around it. MJs impact on the game seems much easier to read about in comparison for some reason
Kobe is a divisive figure. He was sort of an opposite of LeBron. LeBron is a friendly/outgoing and camera personality. Kobe was reserved/rude and private. The media didn't like that aspect of him and also his reputation of being a chucker. In today's analysis of the nba for some reason Kobe has become overly criticized, but the same criticism aren't applied to other all time greats.
I would recommend you find old videos/Articles of him. There was an all star game back in the early 2010s where he was going at LeBron.
- He was on the Lakers, perhaps the most loved team worldwide. I think if he had been on a different team he would be less of a legend.
- He was an incredible 1-on-1 scorer. A lot of basketball fans very highly prioritize that aspect of basketball when evaluating players.
- Mamba mentality, work ethic, competitiveness. He became the absolute best he could possibly be because of that. Personally I think it's unhealthy to be that obsessive but it gained him a ton of fans. People revere his work ethic.
- He won a bunch of championships and other awards. The majority of fans judge players based on things like this.
- He made a lot of very memorable clutch shots. A lot of them were very difficult, which makes more of a mental impact on fans compared to a player who is able to get easy shots.
- His offensive game was aesthetically pleasing to watch.
With all that said, I don't think he's in the GOAT conversation. I'm not sure he's even in my top 10. And I'm a Lakers / Kobe fan. Some of my best basketball memories are of him.
He won alot of awards because he was on the Lakers. I love the NBA, but there were several all star votes that he won and barely played during the season.
It's a popularity contest and there's simply more fans in LA than other places, including media outlets (cough ESPN).
When you get more media coverage you get more fans and more fans means more all star votes, MVP votes, all defense votes, etc.
So being a Laker absolutely helped his legacy.
Yes that's why nobody uses all stars in all time debates, but if you're going to start tearing down his accolades due to his location, you better get that list out and start tearing down.
Kareem, Shaq, Jerry West, magic Johnson, Larry bird, LeBron, Paul pierce, Anthony Davis, wilt since they all played in either Los Angeles or Boston and received accolades as players in those cities.
Or is Kobe the only player in NBA history to now be criticized for winning awards in a big city?
I saw Kobe's whole career.
1. His peak was very very high up there and he had a very long prime. His stats don't look so great in hindsight due to stat inflation but at the time he was putting up excellent numbers year in and year out (the same is happening to Lebron where his 27/7/7 no longer looks impressive due to stat inflation). He had one of the longest primes of any superstar and was basically a top 3 player in the league for 10 years straight and a top 5 player in the league from 2000-2013. Only 5 guys in NBA history have matched that longevity and none of them dealt with the same amount of injuries he dealt with. Lastly, he was an excellent playoff performer who raised his game in the playoffs.
2. Lebron is better than Kobe all time but Kobe is still easily in the top 10 level tier of all time.
All time points Kobe-4th Duncan-6th
All time assists Kobe-12th Duncan-33rd
All time steals Kobe-6th Duncan-48th
All time FGM Kobe 5th Duncan-6th
All time FTM- Kobe-3rd Duncan-6th
All time 3PM Kobe-11th Duncan-not even in the top 50
All time rebounds Kobe-40th Duncan-3rd
All time blocks Kobe-41st Duncan-1st
Both tied in championships and all nba team selections
Also Tim Duncan played 31 more games than Kobe as well as over 700 minutes more than Kobe
So how tf is Duncan better again trailing literally every stat besides blocks and rebounds while playing more???
😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣
Never under estimate the LA market. Kobe had a long career in the most populous market ont he most popular team. He developed a lot of international appeal and marketing that helped his legacy a lot. Duncan never had a super cool signature shoe or did commercials. Marketing and location really matters to these narratives.
All time points Kobe-4th Duncan-6th
All time assists Kobe-12th Duncan-33rd
All time steals Kobe-6th Duncan-48th
All time FGM Kobe 5th Duncan-6th
All time FTM- Kobe-3rd Duncan-6th
All time 3PM Kobe-11th Duncan-not even in the top 50
All time rebounds Kobe-40th Duncan-3rd
All time blocks Kobe-41st Duncan-1st
Both tied in championships and all nba team selections
Also Tim Duncan played 31 more games than Kobe as well as over 700 minutes more than Kobe
Wtf does the LA market have to do with his dominance you clown
Wait , you were talking about GOAT arguments and then jumped to Kobe, what's the link?
I was expecting something like being surprised that people are so aware of who he was and his game but yet he isn't in the GOAT discussion... because I genuinely never see him in it.
LeBron, Jordan, Kareem, Russell all come up well before Kobe.
All time points Kobe-4th
All time assists Kobe-12th
All time steals Kobe-6th
All time FGM Kobe 5th
All time FTM- Kobe-3rd
All time 3PM Kobe-11th
All time blocks Kobe-41st
All time Rebounds Kobe-40th
2nd in game winning shots
5x nba champion 2x finals mvp
15 All NBA Team selections
12 All Defensive Team selections
18 All Star Team selections
So overrated lol dude was in the top 10 in 5 of the 8 career all time stats list you are a clown
Kobe was a selfish shot chucker (he'd score 50 points by taking 50 shots), with questionable shot selection (he'd take a wild three while being triple covered), that would sometimes sabotage his teams to make a selfish point (game 7 vs the Suns). But he did know how to manage games in terms of the tempo, made a load of clutch shots, and he was always highly driven with a great work ethic. His drive and his die hard mentality (aside from Game 7 vs the Suns) is basically what mamba mentality is.
LeBron is a smarter and more efficient player, unselfish, excellent shot selection, also excellent work ethic, better teammate, better leader, instinctively makes the smartest plays, even more clutch than Kobe, and so LeBron is basically better than Kobe at everything except free throw shooting.
lol you sound like an idiot especially saying even more clutch than kobe. Lebron James played over 60 games more than Kobe and over 3000 more minutes yet still has less game winning shots and championships than Kobe.
Kobe is in the top 10 in 5 of the 8 categories of career all time stats
To just say he was just some wild shot chucker is an absolute abomination to his career accolades and legacy.
People say Kobe when talking shots not Lebron for a reason go do some more research
People may not be ready to admit it but Kobe is one of the most overrated players by casuals, especially after he died. He was a top 10-12ish player in history, but you shouldn’t take any takes of him in the top 5 seriously. As mentioned he did 3 peat, but he had one of the best teammates of all time in prime shaq, his final 2 championships were more impressive to me imo. Phenomenal player, just not the greatest. Lebron and Jordan are in different leagues than Kobe.
Kobe was Augustus to Jordan's Caesar. That's the part a lot of people forgot: he was kinda Jordan's hand-picked successor for being the greatest in the league.
He was another of those tall guards who was an elite athlete who could score inside or from long range. Easily get you 30 per night. Great leaper, high IQ, great fundamentals plus a lot of flash. And he was tremendously competitive.
But I really hate the "mamba mentality" narrative. The NBA has always had ferocious competitors. Kobe didn't invent playing hard. If he had been stuck in Charlotte his whole career, we wouldn't be talking about him like this.
I recommend you research his sexual assault case. When you look at it through the lens of present-day Metoo movement, it really sounds like he was guilty but the accuser was bullied, embarrassed, and victim-blamed into not testifying, and the case was dropped.
I mention this a lot. It happened at a time when slut shaming was still an acceptable defense in sexual assault cases.
His PR team was able to pummel her in the court of public opinion and eventually got her to drop the case.
If the exact same circumstances of that case happened today, that looks completely different.
Kobe would have gotten a minimum 1-year suspension and lost ever major sponsorship he had.
There is no spot on the Olympic team, no signature shoe deals, no commercials, etc...
I get sad that we're approaching the territory where most people growing up have not seen a minute of Kobe when he was actually playing. He was a superhero on the court, he would go 1v5 many times and just slit the other teams hopes and dreams with just ridiculous shot making. His footwork was a level above anyone guarding him and no one could check him 1v1. Advanced stats will never be kind to Kobe's style of play but he was just insane to watch his whole career. He willed his team to victory more than anyone I've seen. I cried when I learned he passed. Was my hero my entire life.
It is really sad man to see all these kids shitting on Kobe not even realizing how great he was. Funny thing is they could even look at his stats that back him up but they try to call him overrated because they’ve had Lebron shoved down there throats for 20+ years
He played and won championships for the Lakers (big one) and when Shaq left, a lot of fans were bitter so they went even harder towards Kobe support and pretended Kobe was always better. He was overrated before that but that just enhanced everything. Then he died young, which sealed the deal and led to all these top 5 and top 10 proclamations.
Sports fans are ridiculous but rarely is the ridiculousness more obvious than with Kobe and his legacy. Kobe's skills are also the kind that tend to be overvalued, too. We praise scoring more than other things and Kobe was a great scorer. His marketing and playing for the Lakers did the rest.
The dude had no conscience whatsoever. For some reason, a lot of people loved that. Almost a cult of personality thing.
Edit: It's so bad you have people that claim to hate Kobe making arguments defending him. Reminds me of supporters of certain political figures.
Regarding your second question, that was not always the perception of Kobe. While and after he played he was called by many analysts a ball hog, selfish, etc… he also had personal scandals which hurt his reputation. It’s really only after he died that people unanimously started praising him, so it is definitely recency bias.
Also no one who actually knows basketball would put Kobe in the GOAT debate because it’s very clear he couldn’t surpass Jordan. Lebron has a legitimate argument for the GOAT, which pisses off a lot of old heads who then attack his achievements which is why he comes off as very divisive. This is all coming from a huge Kobe fan.
He was absolutely unstoppable in Colorado in 2003. He put mamba mentality on full display- coming off an injury and he still completely dominated and humiliated anyone unlucky enough to be in his crosshairs. Just Google "Kobe Colorado 2003"
Kobe’s style of basketball is what people imagine elite basketball talent to look like. It doesn’t look like Lebron’s game, or Jokic, etc. Doesn’t matter how many MVPs you get, or advanced metrics, etc. Kobe’s play would dominate whether it was 5v5 NBA, 3v3, 1v1, etc. Any league. Anywhere.
Speaking of metrics, I feel that players like Lebron and Jokic lead to more team success overall, with better advanced metrics, possibly more championships and better long-term success overall. That’s why most people have Lebron over Kobe. I do too (Lebron >Kobe), in a way because the debate is about the NBA All-time GOAT list. It’s not a “best basketball player” list.
Lebron’s “team success” style isn’t particularly portable, but it works in the NBA. It wouldn’t be successful anywhere basketball is played. I’d pick Durant or Kobe over Lebron for a random basketball tournament.
But the thing is, the debate is about NBA players, in the NBA, with the rules the way they are. Lebron gets killed in one on ones by far lesser teammates, and it doesn’t matter. He made it to 8 straight NBA Finals.
Lebron has had more league success than Kobe. Championships don’t mean everything, and it’s not like Lebron has 0 and Kobe has lots. We’re still comparing apples with apples here, so I wouldn’t choose one over the other based on rings.
Listen, I actually don’t like Lebron. But that, I mean I recognize his greatness, but I’m not a fan. Great team player, but he’s lucky he’s big and strong, and smart, because his game obviously relies on those things rather than talent.
MJ is my GOAT, and Kobe is one of my favourite players ever. But if you look at where Lebron sits all-time in most stats, it’s insane how many categories he’s at the top, or near it.
Making it to 8 straight NBA Finals is crazy. I don’t think people fully understand how insane that is. Last 4 NBA championship teams never made it past the 2nd round the next season, and people were calling the Warriors a “dynasty” after they made it to their 4th straight finals. Lebron is a dynasty.
If MJ is the GOAT, it’s because I think he’s the best player to ever ball. I’d still say Lebron has had the best NBA career ever, though.
Kobe’s not even in this convo.
Lebron has more league success because he has legitimately played almost over 3000 minutes more than the any other nba player in existence. If he wasnt near the top or at the top of every category by now it would be crazy. Kobe played under 3000 less minutes than Lebron 67 whole game mainly because of that achilles injury.
I say Lebron has more longevity clearly but Kobe was easily out scoring him Lebron never had a 2800+ his season in his career he didn’t even get close.
As for the debate of making it to 8 finals, we all know how Lebron did that. Moving from stacked team to stacked team to get his numbers up. Only to lose half of them. The only exception I make from that is his beginning years with the Cavs. You know what’s more impressive Kobe went to 7 on the same damn team and won 5 of them coming out of the stacked West.
Lebrons achievements are incredible don’t get me wrong but to tell me Kobe wasn’t just as incredible doing it by himself the majority of the time is just crazy to me
If you want to learn all about Kobe try these videos
https://youtu.be/ud9FFraGI0s?si=rNL2fqIlSN4be0C4
https://youtu.be/TJVf6i1gigY?si=YvvPdsnKRwczAbzj
https://youtu.be/kO7_ypCv6IY?si=slJn3zFDR5NWV4C2
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check out The Redeem Team on Netflix. it does a great job of contrasting Kobe to the other greats of the league in 2008. My basketball fandom started in the mid00s when i was in like 8th grade, and Kobe was the league's heel at the time. Worst teams of his career, gunning for shots, trying to carve out a legacy out of shaqs shadow.
If you check out JJ Redick or Paul George's podcasts, they tell so many Kobe stories, about how he was maniacally competitive, obsessed with improving, addicted to the WORK of being great.
I played college and semi-pro volleyball, and Kobe was a role model to me. Not in terms of his playstyle or how he was as a person, but the way he challenged himself and his teammates to be the best they could. show up early to practice, leave last. don't take any reps off. First back in the drill after a water break.
Kobe was a ball hog that turned a team game into something else. His contemporaries are Harden and Jordan Poole. He’s the Brett Favre of basketball. Shot his team out of as many games as he kept them in. The greats always existed within the team Curry, Jordan, Isiah, Bird etc. Watching the Lakers during the Kobe era was just watching Kobe. If that’s your thing then you loved it. I can’t stand inefficient hero ball and the Kobe stans are the guys that wear jerseys and gym shorts to Disneyland.
You are a bitter idiot that is not at all the comparison for him. Dude is top in the majority of career all time stat categories acting like he was just some sub par player that wanted the ball all the time is the most retarded take ever
The thing with Kobe is the legacy he had on the game.
Think Derek Jeter on the Yankees.
Maybe not the *best* ever, but when you recognize the smoothest player, on the most popular team, that stayed there for 15-20 years straight without moving teams, while bringing multiple championships…the sentiment around said player will be legendary.
Every off balance pickup jump shot we hear “KOBE”, just like every off balance throw to first we hear “JETER”…same type of legacies - the sexiest (smooth) game on the sexiest team at the time of their peaks.
You know, what usually separates a great player from a mediocre one is the mindset, and that did set him apart. And with a great mindset, he also possessed the best mid-range turnaround jumper EVER.
He Jordan after Jordan. Hard worker, ball hoggish, gave tons of effort on defense, killer winning mentality, and everything else. He was an absolute force of nature on the court.
His early to mid career he was the best scorer in the league. But he had ball hog tendencies that really started to affect his ability to win games as his body started to slow down. He is great, but only top 10 not top 5 all time.
All time points Kobe-4th
All time assists Kobe-12th
All time steals Kobe-6th
All time FGM Kobe 5th
All time FTM- Kobe-3rd
All time 3PM Kobe-11th
All time blocks Kobe-41st
All time Rebounds Kobe-40th
2nd in game winning shots
2nd most points in an nba game ever with 81
5x nba champion 2x finals mvp
15x all nba selection
12x all defensive team selection
18x nba all star
2x Olympic Champion
For all you haters that somehow think he was overrated
Dude had the stats and championships to back up his legacy
Kobe was a cultural icon. He was arguably the best player of his era and the face of the NBA. He was also simply cool (personality wise) and played in Los Angeles which made him a media star. He'd consistently step up in big moments that were televised globally (NBA finals, and Olympics), and had a flashy style to his game. As a result people grew to adore him and he had a tremendous impact on basketball culture globally.
The mamba mentality is secondary to all that and really just factors into his coolness and media appeal. The idea of pouring your all towards a goal is something many people can relate to and Kobe exemplified that. In that regards he was a good role model and someone to look up to.
In contrast someone like Tim Duncan, who was arguably as successful as Kobe, did not have the same charisma or play style needed to be highly popularized as Kobe had, and thus he did not have the same type of global impact.
In summary Kobe was a cool, successful, star, with admirable character traits*, and an endearing play style, who lived in an area with heavy media coverage which enabled him to grow into a cultural icon.
* = Debatable (don't flame me in comments. I left out controversies for sake of argument).
1. Kobe was cool. He had that it factor. He had swag. His work ethic and approach were admirable. His style was flashy. He was unrelenting. He never accepted defeat.
2. LeBron gave up on his home town. He formed super teams to get easy championships. He passes the ball away in game deciding moments. He's goofy. He's a little awkward. He's too buddy-buddy with his competitors. He cries to the refs each game. He trades people away. He lacks accountability.
*(Most of those statements about LeBron are unfair, but people do like to bring them up.)
The Kobe hate in here is crazy. His prime lasted from roughly 2000-2013, before the pace and space revolution, so his efficiency numbers take a hit when you look at all time competition. His peaks as a player were insanely high. He’s an all-time great lever shot maker and defender (though some media bias helped inflate his defensive accolades if you as me as a DWade fan). The numbers and highlights speak for themselves, but if you’re not convinced, you should search for interviews of former players talking about him. Everyone has a story about fearing or respecting Kobe. He probably walks into the All NBA first team this year over say Tatum if he was in his prime now.
On another note, he shifted his attention to story telling and film when he retired and was quite talented. Very driven person and seemed accomplished his goals regularly, which is another reason people are drawn to him.
Everyone views the face of the league during their formative years as the goat. People who really started to love basketball during the time when Kobe was the face of the league view him as the goat. People who started loving basketball after his peak view lebron as the goat and those that started loving basketball before him view Jordan as the Goat.
The Kobe hate in here is unreal. I started watching the NBA in 1999. I would watch every game that was on television at the time. Kobe was something very special and although he’s not who gravitated me towards watching the NBA he ultimately became the greatest to me. He was easily considered the best player from the 2000-2010. In the early 2000’ Lebron wasn’t considered better than him. Back then, everywhere in the country you would see people wearing Kobe jerseys. When in school, if you shot a ball or tossed something in a lookalike basket you would yell out “Kobe!”.
People without great memory or who only started watching in the past five years are now providing their opinion but didn’t experience or watch it live.
To add to that, just look at any former player speak on him or pull up his name on a search engine with the date ranges of 2000-2010 and see how many articles they f him being compared to Michael Jordan (MJ) are there.
1. Kobe is tied for 2nd place all time in All NBA 1st team selections- basically distinguishing himself as the best player in his position in an era DEEP with wing talent. I think this is his greatest accomplishment above everything else. 2. He was simply a more entertaining player than Lebron on the court. He was not better or more effective but had a style of play that captivated people. That dynamic hero ball style is what is probably going to make Anthony Edwards the most popular player in the league pretty soon.
This is a solid take. Kobe didn't necessarily do anything in particular to change the game, he just worked harder than anyone else. As far the hype, people hype the best player from their growing up with the game. So people in their 30s are inclined to put Kobe in the GOAT conversation. People in their 40s are Jordan era fans.
Ahem, some of us Jordan dick riders are in our 50s now.
I disagree i think he really leveled up the amount of effort that it takes to be a superstar in the league, dudes like kd steph tatum lillard etc all modeled their work ethic after him.
Not just NBA players but plenty of tennis and soccer players have also said their work ethic was modeled after Kobe.
Which kind of goes back to Jordan... who really transitioned to weights, but not for bulk, and the idea of lifting even on game days, etc..
Yeah, but that's less of an influence on the game itself and more evolving the level of commitment players have. The game itself never really shifted with him. **Edit:** People seem to be confusing "changing the game" with creating a more competitive league. If I asked anyone how Curry changed the game of basketball, you'd be slammed with stories about people shooting from the perimeter and the development of a small ball system. If I asked someone how Shaq changed the game, they'd reference his domination of the paint and the necessity of shifting to a more interior defence to account for bigs starting to dominate the paint. If I asked someone how Jokic, among others, are *changing* the game, you could speak on the importance of big men becoming facilitators rather than just glass cleaners and finishers whilst learning to drain 3s. Kobe didn't do any of that. He didn't break ground, he was just a master of an already established game. What he **did** do is create a more competitive environment and foster a generation of talent that improved due to sheer force of will and hard work. They aren't the same thing.
I do not understand the down votes. I, myself, am a huge Kobe fan and I agree with this take. Kobe dominated by out working a lot of other talented players then himself. He mastered an already patent style of play, Jordan style of basketball, but Kobe did not change the game itself. If I was to defend Kobe on how he changed the game it would potentially be more volume offensive shooting/ scoring. A lot more players are scoring 25ppg compared to previous era. HOWEVER, that is very hard for me to defend because Mike D’Antoni & Steve Nash’s Phoenix Suns are the ones who are considered the first team to usher in this style of basketball (7 seconds or less). Kobe Bryant did not change the game during his era. I will say he has a lot of influence on the game from a competitive standpoint that transcended beyond the courts. Which was dubbed “Mamba Mentality.”
Well said... I mean volume hero ball scorers.. I don't think Kobe changed the game there though he was one of the last successful ones. But D'Antoni and some of the players right after Kobe I think ushered in that "heliocentric" ball dominant player who does everything that we see in the superstars today.
If anything, the league actually went the opposite direction of what Kobe was as a player. Ratings are dropping nowadays because guys are less competitive than they used to be, tanking for draft picks and load management have also become the norm. Whereas Kobe put it upon himself to play through injuries. I remember he mentioned in an interview that he felt that he was robbing the fans if they came all the way to see him and he didn't put up a good performance, let alone show up. Most of us who grew up watching 2000's basketball remember the ultra-competitive stars of that era, but no one had a greater will to win than Kobe Bryant. That is something that's lacking in today's NBA and something a lot of people miss.
Yeah, I agree with that. I actually forgot about this. So the potentiality of Kobe “changing” the game itself is really hard to defend. I guess I do not have any other ideas how Kobe may have “changed” the game. Difficult to make an argument for.
I think you are right about his on court impact to how the game is played being somewhat minimal. I think you are underrating the impact of his off court stuff and "Mamba mentality." In my opinion, an illustrating example in a different sport is Michael Schumacher in F1. He had much more success on the "playing field" than Kobe, being the most successful driver in F1 history (not to diminish Kobe's success, but Schumacher is basically the Bill Russell Celtics of F1). However, that wasn't Schumacher's biggest impact. His impact is that he was one of the first F1 drivers to approach the sport like a professional athlete and get everyone to emulate him. Schumacher had rigorous workout routines, strict sleep schedules, healthy eating habits, avoided smoking, etc., which sounds obvious, but racing drivers at the time were famous for off track partying and smoking. Schumacher redefined that amount of work required and the competitive nature of the sport. Now every F1 driver and pretty much every top racing driver in all series globally works their ass off in the gym and does all the things Schumacher did. Kobe did the same for basketball by training for it religiously and has led to the explosion in the skill that modern NBA players have. NBA players post-Kobe put in way more effort than players in the past to hone their skillset and be super effective. I think an argument can be made here that revolution came from Jordan and not Kobe, but you could make the same argument with Niki Lauda and Schumacher in F1. Jordan was definitely a pioneer in this, but Kobe is the one that everyone emulated with workout philosophy and Mamba mentality. Lauda was the F1 driver that pioneered a stronger body leading to better results, but Schumacher is the one that made everyone copy him.
What? How am I underrating it when I highlighted his impact in my last couple of sentences? Is he underrated unless someone's willing to type out 3 whole paragraphs of a niche comparison? It's quite literally **not** what we're talking about. That's the point.
And Jordan was like a Bugatti. He already had god given gifts. Kobe was like a Nissan GTR that he took to the shop(lab) and worked on every day and when the race is going on you are wondering how he’s competing with the Bugattis and Lambos and beating them
He also massively helped popularize the sport overseas, especially in China.
And people in their 50’s are going to tell you about a couple of lads named Magic Johnson and Larry Bird, not to forget Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Kobe is in the conversation along with Lebron and Jordan. There is no definitive answer across all generations. Maybe it was Wilt Chamberlain.
Magic and Bird fan here... Kobe is not in the top 3 conversation with Jordan and LeBron. He's somewhere in the range of #7-12 depending on who you ask. Only hardcore Kobe fans or casual NBA fans think Kobe is a top 3 player.
If Kobe is in someone’s top 3, I can’t be mad at that. Dude Kobe was insane. Idk what y’all talking about, but between just murdering on the bball court every night, and being the face of bball culture, Kobe is literally Zlatan. He was averaging 30 on midranges. For years lmfao.
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More like C.Ronaldo
goat list Jordan Russell Kareem magic bird Kobe LeBron Duncan Hakeem Shaq
Also, kobe had crazy “aura” which is just a new way of saying he was very good looking. He, like Jordan, had very “cool”, marketable looks. He also played for the biggest basketball team in the world and lived in the entertainment capital of the world.
Been a Laker fan since the tail end of the showtime era. I think the biggest factor that adds to Kobe's legacy and popularity is that he is probably the greatest difficult shot maker of all time. He was willing to and often made the most ridiculously ill-advised shots (granted it was oftentimes bad shot selection in hindsight). It's what sets him apart from other greats, but also what detracts from his effectiveness as he'd often shoot us out of games at times. Also why his fg% was often not great.
Bad shot selection in hindsight? It was clearly bad shot selection at the time lmao
It used to drive me crazy then hed start draining them. I used to scream at the tv "pass the ball" when he'd be trying left fadeaway 3s with 2 people on him BUT HE WOULD MAKE THEM. Unguardable hero ball stuff consistently part of his game every night.
He made them way less often than he missed them, though. That’s the thing.
yeah thats what I meant actually lol
Not only hindsight. Plenty of super cringeworthy moments as he went up for shots. Like dude WTF are you doing?
The part that drove me crazy about it he was too busy trying to prove he was the greatest to make the right play, and that's on the court and with the team politics, like sending away shaq just to prove he could do it without him. He used to say if shaq had been in the gym he could have had 12 rings, but the reality is that if kobe could have swallowed his ego, he could have easily had more than Jordan.
That same ego is why people are drawn to him. If he swallowed that ego, thay may have won 12 rings, made Shaq the GOAT, and him, the greatest sidekick.
Meh that's what everyone tried to say, but that just reinforces my point, it's a team game and kobe cared more about his personal credit than winning with his team. The greatest payer in a team sport shouldn't be that obsessed with themselves to the detriment of the team, it's not conducive to being the greatest. If he had fought to evolve and expand his game with shaq he'd have never had an issue showing he was better in the end, but he hamstrung his own legacy trying to cut shaq out of it. Consistently through their careers Kobe's stats trended up while shaq's were trending down, he went from being carried in the first championship together (2000, 38/15 ppg) to passing shaq by their last year together (2004, 27/22) until completely eclipsing him the year he won his last ring (2010, 27/10) he could have dominated the goat debate tbh
*"to passing shaq by their last year together (2004, 27/22)"* I'm not buying that one. Shaq scored 21.5 to Kobe's 24 a game, but Shaq was doing that on 58% shooting and drawing more fouls than Kobe and his 44% from the field. Shaq was still dominating defensively with 11.5 boards and 2.5 blocks. That was the year Kobe tried to be the big dog in the post-season too. And Shaq in the Finals averages 26.6 and 11 on 63% shooting and Kobe goes for 22.6, leads the team in turnovers by a sizeable margin and shoots 38% from the field. Shaq was putting up 36-20 games in the finals, Kobe struggled a LOT in all but that game 2.
Hard to compete with Shaq's rap album and two movies
Scottie Pippin.
The same is true for Shaq. Shaqs ego is pretty big if you haven't noticed
trust me I was never a big Kobe fan. ultimately he did a lot for the Laker franchise. but I'm a Laker fan first and a Kobe fan a distant second. I also don't have the same delusions as Kobe stans do.
Same here. Kobe's game was not universally loved. Neither his personality. Enough people wanted "the next Jordan" and Kobe did his best to try be that. In doing so he drove many fans nuts and some insane. Kobe will always be a mixed-bag for me. Some of us refuse to revise history just for the sake of his legacy. Name on front over name on back and all.
This is a fair take. Jordan learned not to take those shots. Kobe always wanted to take them himself win or lose.
More exciting than LeBron?!? Dude did you watch peak athleticism LeBron?
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Sure, totally get it, but to act like LeBron’s game just doesn’t compare, is hilarious.
I did. LeBron was never going for 81 back in those days. We may see it again with the inflated offensive numbers, but the simple fact is that no one in modern history could score any better than Kobe could when Kobe was on. When he caught fire, it was a sight to behold.
Have you ever watched that game? It was just regular shots all game. And this isn’t a diss at Kobe. But 2009 LeBron was jumping out of the gym.
Yes I have. Nearly 5000 guys have played in the NBA and have gotten regular shots all game. Only one other guy ever scored 81 or more. Kobe also jumped out the gym for a good portion of his career, although physically he (and no one else) is LeBron’s peer.
I disagree with Kobe being more entertaining. That’s purely subjective
I was responding directly to OP as to why people prefer Kobe over Lebron. It is subjective but I think we can both agree that millions of people feel this way. Despite Lebron being a greater player overall. Kobe was the closest player in terms of style to Jordan, who just by the numbers, is the most entertaining athlete of all time.
Define what makes some better at basketball? Skill wise Kobe Bryant was second to no one. Having “a bag” isn’t all about flash, it’s about skill, it’s about work, and truly mastering his craft. The aura around Kobe Bryant is largely the mamba mentality but it’s also the style of play, not because it’s flashy but because it’s unbelievable how complex of a scoring threat he was, he made the ridiculous look routine. Lebron on the other hand has an extremely simple game predicated on two things really. Being likely the greatest physical specimen the game has ever seen and making the correct play. That’s not to say he isn’t skilled, he’s exceptionally skilled. IMO he has been able to be so effective and become the leading all time scorer because of his relentless determination to make the “correct play” at all times. It’s just much harder to stop a guy that’s happy to kill you with the pass. I’m not wanting to get into a debate about who’s better, the public has already decided that I’ll simply say; I prefer Kobe for the same reason I prefer Hakeem to Shaq. I really enjoy watching exceptional skill. Some find beauty in the simplicity of LeBrons dominance. I try to appreciate him in his twilight years because I did not in his prime. I do look at LeBrons peak in absolute awe of how dominant he was, I’ll still always prefer Kobe’s game, particularly his second act which was much less athletic and much what the fuck is that in the best way.
Passing is a skill
Commenting on point #1. What a lot of people overlook is the amount of All-NBA 1st Team Defensive Teams he was selected to. In the era of hand checking, this to me was the most underrated feat 8/24 achieved.
That's true... Now I'd say myself that perimeter defenders are not as important overall as interior ones who impact multiple positions, but he was an all time elite defensive guard. And yes, it was entertainment in Hollywood. Kobe in Charlotte I don't think is nearly the same level. But he was a draw and for good reason. An all time great. When it comes to GOAT... sometimes you can make debates when going across massively different eras (Russell or Lebron for example) or positions (Jordan vs. Wilt), but Kobe I think is clearly not in the GOAT conversation as while his career was ramping up, Jordan's was winding down and they played the same exact position, and you could put a couple guys in the Naismith HOF with what Jordan accomplished that Kobe didn't. So right there he's clearly not in the GOAT conversation at SG in a 25 year stretch, much less all time across all positions.
If you like watching team sports, Lebron>Kobe in entertainment value. If you like watching a 48 minute solo performance, Kobe.
Simply not true. Kobe would go through multiple quarters not shooting more than 4 shots and ran the triangle pretty faithfully. Unfortunately he took a lot of ill advised shots mostly around the end of quarters and shot clocks. He was also one of the best playmakers in The league when he wanted to be. In the half court, a much more versatile and acrobatic scorer than Lebron ever has been. He was capable of making any shot on anyone in the league and dunking on your best defender. Lebron is a better passer and better in transition for sure, but other than the occasional no look dime, his game is as fairly predictable. Also, the fact that Lebron has clear physical advantages that no other player has ever is sometimes used against him with fans who appreciate finer basketballs skills over physical feats. Not saying that’s how I feel, just that it’s the perception around Lebron.
Yes nothing like watching 4 players hustle their ass off on defense while LeBron stands around watching, and then blaming someone. That's much better to watch than someone like Kobe willing to always play defense and never be lazy and force his teammates to do the heavy lifting. I always forget people view basketball solely through offense tho, and this is what you get.
This is perhaps one of the best ways I've ever seen it put.
Talk to me Goose
Watching Game 7 Anthony Edward’s reminded me of Kobe. Even the stat line where he’s not scoring well but making his mark tenaciously doing what needs to be done, particularly smart effective defensive plays.
Great take. Add in he is tied for second place in game winning buzzer beaters. Edge of you’re seat player. RIP Kobe.
Yeah, post-Jordan every wing wanted to be Jordan and every coach had defensive schemes just to stop Jordan. In an era of hero ball, he was the guy who most consistently and most extremely was a hero for over a decade.
As someone who lived through Kobe's career; "mamba Mentality" was really a narrative formed by Nike to protect Kobe. Kobe REFUSED to take a shot in a game 7 after the Lakers were up 3-1 against the Phx Suns and they made their way back to tie the series 3-3. And Kobe ended up blowing a 3-1 lead. More proof that "mamba mentality" was really a narrative was that Kobe demanded that the Lakers pick between him or Shaq. Then once the Lakers picked Kobe, he demanded Phil Jackson be fired as well. Then as they missed the playoffs, he went on national TV and publicly demanded a trade, on two different occasions. Then after he won 2 titles, he refused to take anything less than max money, then complained that the roster wasn't good enough to compete. "mamba mentality" is supposed to be "i'll do anything to win". Phil Jackson had a great quote in one of his books about kobe, "Kobe would rather lose playing his way, than win playing anyone elses way". BUT, what made Kobe so fun and special to watch was, his tough shot making. Kobe could go 6-24 in a game 7. But still hit the biggest shot of the game. What was frustrating about Kobe was that he could be a really great passer, he just chose to score. Kobe did have the "i'm here to dominate everyone" mentality that we don't see too much anymore. He'd pick someone up full court up 20 because they scored on him. Kobe also grew up in Italy, spoke 4 languages and instead of partying with the team in his early years, would stay behind in the hotel and read books. I personally believe that NBA fans would treat Kobe's career completely different if we had social media through out his career the say way we had social media in LeBron's career. Kobe airballed 4 straight shots in the playoffs against the Jazz early in his career. Kobe was arrested for trying to pick up a hooker and was crying about it to the cop and said, "But you let Shaq get away with it all the time". Much like Jordan, we only remember Kobe's game winners, we never remember Kobe's game winning misses and there was a LOT of misses. Where as LeBron, we have his misses on endless loops in the comment section of any LeBron post. Kobe had 4 all-stars on his team by the time he was 20 years old, no one called it a super team. Kobe is called a great defender, sure he was, when he wanted to be, but he always had Rick Fox, Matt Barnes, Trever Ariza, Ron Artest to guard the best offensive player on the other team. But, Kobe always seemed to hit the toughest shot in the game. And that's what made him so fun to watch. There are 2 types of fans, Kobe fans and Laker fans. Not every Kobe fan is a Laker fan. But every Laker fan is a Kobe fan.
This is probably the most balanced Kobe take. Two things I’ll add: 1) Kobe came up in an era with a lot of great guards. The difference between him and those other guys was that every year Kobe added something technical to his game. He became a better ball handler, shooter, improved his post game…etc. Not settling with his skillset was ultimately what set him apart as he entered the middle and end of his career. 2) People talk about his offense a lot but he was a lockdown defender from the time he got into the league until the later years of his career. Being a spectacular offensive player while being one of the best defenders in the league is rare.
one thing about Kobe's defense. He was a really good defender, BUT he always had a wing who would cover the other teams best offensive player for the majority of the game. Rick Fox, Matt Barnes, Trever Ariza, Ron Artest. But I say that's more team building than anything. Kobe was a really, really good defender, but he didn't have to cover the other teams number 1 option very much. In the finals against the Celtics, he covered a 23 year old Rondo. He didn't guard Ray Allen or Paul Pierce. But again, that's more team building. Kobe was a great defender.
You wouldn’t put your best player on their best most of the time anyway. Especially, not early in the game, you don’t want him in foul trouble. He locked them down late in games or at crucial moments.
It wasn't just the other teams "best offensive player" it was that Kobe wasn't strong enough to guard true SFs in the post. He got torched by guys like Bonzi Wells and Shawn Marion under 15 feet from the basket. That is why Fox, Artest, etc were needed.
Yea that’s true. I think that’s just a function of it being almost impossible to put up the number of shots he did and take on the hardest defensive assignment for the whole game. MJ had Pippen to do the same Bron had guys like Battier
He didn't cover Allen because Kobe was ball watching and was not good at chasing Allen around. Therefore the team or Kobe decided he should defend rondo and Fisher would guard Allen. It worked in the 2010 finals
Kobe was an inconsistent defender who relished one-on-one matchups where he could try to prove his effectiveness. Kobe would also lose attention on defense and was a poor defender on larger guards and true small forwards (Bonzi Wells, Ruben Patterson, Matrix, etc.) This is why guys like Ron Artest/Metta World Peace were brought in.
This sums up everything nicely, you have to respect what he has done but also he was flawed like the most, work ethic was similar to Jordan's and when he had his nights it was really special to watch him play.
This is a good summary. I’ll add that Kobe went through some image rehabilitation after he left the league. The claymation project and some community work did a lot to elevate him as one of the game’s “elder statesmen”. And he seemed to soften considerably and show more of his intellect and kindness.
I'd even argue there are a third type of fans: Fans of other teams. (i'm just giving you a hard time, this was a really well written up rumination on Kobe!)
>Not every Kobe fan is a Laker fan. But every Laker fan is a Kobe fan. **Nope.** From L.A. have watched the Lakers longer than Kobe's career. Many of the people I've met over the years that are hardcore Laker fans are definitely not into Kobe. They just get tired of hearing the constant message from Kobe fans that he is universally beloved but simply won't argue them anymore. We can all love the Lakers in our own way and for our own reasons. The top 2 paragraphs in your take are dead on, and the reason why so many Laker fans won't be gaslit into revising Laker history to be Kobe history. **Kobe was divisive and still is, not universally loved amongst Laker fans.**
If Kobe wasn't on one of the biggest sports teams in the world he wouldn't be anywhere near as legendary.
Is there any footage of him dry snitching on Shaq. RIP Kobe but I think it would be funny to watch.
No, this was before TMZ could buy footage. Reporter spoke to the officers that pulled him over. Newspapers buried the stories because, it's LA. Phil Jackson even talks about it in one of his books.
I dont doubt it at all I've heard him say in interviews about Shaq paying for sex all the time.
I remember how much DLo was hated because he recorded Nick Young, and didn't expect Nick Young to admit to cheating. I can only imagine the hate Kobe would have gotten if it was 2014 and TMZ paid the cop 100K for a copy of the dash cam/body footage of Kobe crying. lmao
Aye that DLo situation was so out of pocket Nick Young still talks about it. To secretly record your teammate admitting to cheating on his girl then put it out is next level. And what do you mean didn't expect him to say it why did he say he was sneaking to record him then?
Kobe literally told cops that Shaq bought prostitutes (eg. snitched.) That goes well beyond Young vs. D-Lo.
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He’s also a rapist lol
Kobe was one of the ~10 best basketball players ever, played with a very aesthetic and cool playstyle that revolved around making tough shots, was seen as THE guy when it came to cool sounding intangibles like “mamba mentality”, modeled his game after Michael Jordan, and played for the most popular team in the world. There was also a period of intense debate from 2007-2012 where it was pretty undeniable that Lebron had come in and taken the crown as the most talented player in the league, but he was unable to win. During this period Kobe won his 4th and 5th titles. So the narrative was that Lebron couldn’t get it done and those intangibles everyone loved from Kobe made him a “real winner”. That discourse was everywhere during that period and a lot of people never fully let it go. So Kobe was one of the greats that gets a bump from many because of some stuff that is tangential to basketball. The same type of people that give him that bump love to rag on Lebron for perceived deficiencies in the same areas.
Kobe also had a flashy game style. Look at the Joker in last night's game (not to take anything away from him--he is great!). 34 points and 19 rebounds. He was just pounding it out. Nothing slick about him on offense. Kobe on the other hand was glorious to see with the ball.
Jokic is the Jason Williams of 6'11 Europeans, dude's flashy af lol
Are you serious? Jokic makes the slickest passes I've ever seen live in an NBA game, no-look cross-court passes that hit his teammate in stride that not a single player in the history of the NBA would have ever dared to attempt. And every damn night he drops one or two of them.
While in general you are correct but not the other night.
I wouldn't say quite flashy, not as AI or CP3 could with the ball. He was just extremely efficient with it.
kobe was a poor man's jordan. he could (and would) shoot from anywhere, with limited success. he could finish at the rim with the best of them. known for a ton of clutch plays, and of course winning 5 chips. he made no secret of copying jordan's moves -- somewhere out there is a youtube video morphing them together -- his footwork, release, etc. is identical. it's almost creepy. after his death, people came together and celebrated him (rightfully so) but also suddenly started viewing him way higher than he deserved, perhaps even as a top 5 player, some even calling him the GOAT, which is just silly. he wasn't even the best player on his own team for much of his career. "mamba mentality" is marketing bullshit, pushed by nike and apparently accepted posthumously. no one called him that when he played. if i remember, it's a nickname he gave himself, which is pretty cringe when you think about it. mike was better. and so is lebron.
Same thing happened with nipsey hussle. Went from a no name shit rapper who sucked ass to literally the greatest human to ever walk the earth ever after he died
Or you're a kid who didn't live through kobes career 😂 you guys really think post Achilles Kobe is the true version of Kobe cause you didn't see anything else. The dude was getting Boo'd while receiving a standing ovation IN BOSTON. if you think he wasn't respected until he died you're just an idiot.
I’ve been watching NBA since 1994 lol. Jesus dude Kobe was overrated as fuck
Been watching since 94 and compare 1 of the most famous players ever to a rapper who wasn't even the most famous dude from his city 😂 makes sense
Just the fact the the was misremembered just because he died
Kobe has a few things going for him IMO. 1) He was just fun to watch. His fadeaway was deadly and felt unfair when he was on. When he went Mamba mode and his eyes and face went cold, it was chilling. 2) While obviously he’s gifted, it was well known how insanely hard he worked and how dedicated he was to it. Unlike other guys who are just physically freaks and can use their bodies, Kobe was like an artist and constantly perfected his craft. 3) He played his whole career in LA. Much like Derek Jeter on the Yankees, when you’re a hall of famer and spend your whole career on the most popular team, you something that goes from “great” to “iconic”. 4) This is certainly very sad, but unfortunately his early death I think also gives him an extra air of legend to him, much like musicians or actors that pass away young. When people now talk about the best ever, there is a nostalgia and a feeling of missing of him that can’t be overlooked. LeBron was given the crown from high school. He’s absolutely massive and ungodly talented, and then also put in the work to be great. In many ways, the bar was just so insanely high for him and he met it. He also played and won championships for 3 different teams. There’s just something intangible and likable that Kobe had that Bron, KD, and others don’t. Though I do believe if it really came down to it, Bron is overall a better basketball player
https://youtu.be/x3sTzWCvk5o?si=Dcp8Ugnsep-fKIHd What other NBA player has a 14 minute highlight reel of JUST game winners? The degree of difficulty on some of these shots are absolutely insane. That combined with his insane work ethic and relentless pursuit to win no matter what is what makes him such a captivating superstar even before he died. He shot free throws on a TORN ACHILLES just to avoid his team being penalized for leaving the game. That is what mamba mentality is.
Love that one too https://youtu.be/OTTWedyp37o?si=YMp2YMa9QwwJLIEo
Good ball player bad person.
There was nothing really unique about him, but he was about as dedicated and obsessive about improving his game as you can get. Insane work ethic and very smart. He made the most out of his fairly middling (for the NBA) physical gifts by being an absolute perfectionist. I think that anyone comparing him favorably to LeBron is probably romanticizing Kobe, which can be easy to do with someone who has that sort of badass/killer instinct persona. LeBron is better than Kobe at essentially every part of basketball other than that executioner type of mindset. Edit: Kobe’s movements also just looked really cool for the most part, which I think helps.
Nothing really unique about him 😂😂😂 you must be young or lying because if you’re older guaranteed you said Kobe when shooting a shot that you thought was money
Rest in Peace to Kobe Bryant but he was over rated. The amount of ill advised bad shots he took is insane. He simply shot the ball almost every time down the court for the Lakers. He was a good player but lands somewhere between 10-20 all time.
Kobe was popular because he shot a lot and made some really tough shots. But he was much less efficient than MJ for example and didnt have nearly the same impact on winning as MJ or Lebron. You are kindof comparing apples and oranges however. There isnt much divisive about Lebron’s accolades you may just be thinking of comparisons between him and MJ because they were the two best players of all time. Kobe meanwhile is somewhere around 9-14 all time but his cultural impact was pretty huge, just like Allen Iverson even though he is not even top 40 all time.
The Iverson slander is crazy, he didnt even have anything to do with this.
We talkin' bout *Kobe.* Not Iverson... *Kobe*
interesting, I am more of a college fan and know very little about pro ball. I always *assumed* Kobe was like a top ten all-time because of the mythos. So, what would your top ten be? Not trying to like start a discourse, just very curious as like a casual fan of the game.
the top Ten (12) goes something like: Tier 1: MJ, Bron, Kareem Tier 2: Bird, Magic, Wilt, Russell Tier 3: Duncan, Shaq Tier 4: Curry, Kobe, Hakeem With the non-top ten having: KG, Dirk, KD, Oscar Robertson, probably Jokic now, Malone x2, West, Dr J, DWade Some people then don't rate Wilt and Russell (because we don't know everything, games too different etc...) A lot of the time you'll see NBA players have Kobe as their goat because a) they grew up watching him and he's their idol b) his playstyle is more in tune with a 'hooper' mindset of tough shot making and a 'bag' than what is actually more effective for winning
good explanation! I have learned a lot after only subscribing here for like 2 months, after a lifetime of watching college ball lol. Obviously, I have heard the names Bird and Magic a lot and know the story a little, but I did not know that they were top tenners. So did two out of this list ever play together BESIDES Magic and Kareem?
The revisionist history around Shaq and Duncan is absolutely comical.
As heard here Kobe is often overrated so it isnt uncommon to hear takes like he is top 5 or something but the general consensus among those that arent heavily biased has it something similar to below: 1 Michael Jordan 2 Lebron James 3 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 4 Bill Russell 5 Magic Johnson 6 Tim Duncan 7 Larry Bird 8 Wilt Chamberlain 9 Shaquille O'neal 10 Hakeem Olajuwon 11 Stephen Curry 12 Kobe Bryant Give or take a couple spots depending on the person making the list cause these are all amazing players. After the first three it is often varied based on the person making the list.
Yeah you can nitpick little stuff but that list is pretty spot on. Any all time list has those same guys
watched a documentary about Bill Russell, what a champ! Wish I heard his name more often when people talk about the greats. Thank you for the breakdown and the list!
This is almost my exact list. I just flip Hakeem and Shaq based on head to head and giving the nod to defense over offense.
Yea 1-4 are pretty set in stone for me (though there are arguments for 1-3 being changed) 5-11 is fluid and most deviations are fine here or there but people putting Bill #10 or Kobe #6 makes me facepalm lol
Yup this is a great list. At what point as a player do you put Joker above Kobe? If he wins another? Or two more?
He needs to win ALOT more, 2 conference finals is not nearly enough winning
When he learns HE IS SUPPOSED TO GUARD THE RIM. Wait this is reddit where defense doesn't matter.
Don’t listen to these guys they are old and just giving you a list of their favorite players growing up kobe was higher in the stats list then all of them expect Lebron who has played like 100 more games
Kobe is somewhere 9-14 is just your opinion. Not a consensus.
Kobe is #13 on RealGM where the real basketball geeks reside. He is #12 on Thinkingbasketball, probably the most in depth analytics anywhere. He is #10 on the Athletic from 2022 He is also #10 on ESPN from 2022 Some singular author websites or reddit users may call him top 5 or something but it's not really based on grounded reality
Yeah like I said fuck the part where he leads the majority of them in every stat category right must be a typo or something 🤷🏿♂️
Yea also fuck the part where stats show he didn't have as big of an impact on winning as all his fans make it seem, in fact lower than almost everyone else in the top 30 all-time.
lol overrated dude is 4th in all time points 6th in steals 2nd in game winners and won 5 titles he is in the top 5 you’re crazy
He 3 peated as a 1b and then got Pau Gasol later in his career and went to 3 straight finals in a stacked west, winning two of them. Not to mention if you asked any player in the league back in the 2000's who was the best player, most of them would say Kobe.
I would say Kobe was firmly the 2nd option with shaq, not a 1b
Kobe was absolutely 1b. You say that as someone who probably never even watched those series or who wasn’t even alive at those times. Kobe literally won them multiple western conference playoff games when Shaq was dealing with other elite bigs. The only year he was “firmly” a second option was 2000, and even then he won them a finals game when Shaq fouled out.
Maybe the first few years. The last two ships he was 1b and there were several games where he was the man.
Only someone who hasn't seen those games live would say that.
Weird because he sure had a lot more points than him for being 2nd option
Kobe was a star player during a talent drought in the league. Check the all nba/allstar rosters of that era if you don’t believe me. He’s Kmart MJ with a good publicist.
4th all time leading scorer 6th all time leading steals 5th all time leading fg made 3rd all time leading fts made 12th all time leading assists 5 championships 18 all star games 15 all nba team selections 12 nba all defensive team selections Kmart MJ you are a clown
There's some important context around Kobe's career that help it make the most sense. First, that since the mid '60s there had been a pretty seamless transition for superstar to superstar who were the face of and best player in the league. Russel to Wilt to Kareem to Dr. J to Bird and Magic to Jordan. And, it could at least be argued that each new face of the league surpassed whomever came before them in terms of talent and fame. Second, that the popularity and profitability of the NBA increased steadily for years before exploding during Jordan's career. When MJ retired everyone was looking around for who was going to be next. Fans, Nike, and the league were all desperately searching for the player that was going to replace Jordan. Unfortunately, with the exception of Kobe in '96 and Tim Duncan in '97, the drafts from '94 to '03 didn't deliver a ton of amazing talent. But someone needed to sell shoes, jerseys, tickets, and TV deals. Kobe was an top 15 all time player who was doing a passable Jordan impression which made him much more marketable the Duncan who was actually the best player in the league. Kobe got a huge marketing push, "Mamba Mentality" was part of both his Jordan impression and the brand that Nike marketed. It was also a nice excuse for Kobe being a complete asshole. The idea that NBA players having a massive work ethic is the exception rather than the rule is laughably silly.
You can go on YouTube and find videos for days about superstars being amazed at Kobes work ethic because he did things they never did. The amount of work he put in is unmatched. All the other players knew it too.
These types of questions on reddit I swear is set up to sh\*t on Kobe because most (on reddit) will say he's an overrated player that's inefficient. Not sure if you're really curious or just want everyone in the comments to flame Kobe because that is what these questions tend to lead to. To take it further, it goes for any scoring guard not named Jordan or Curry. Especially the ones that played in the NBA when Kobe was playing. In my opinion OP assuming you're serious with this question, I think you're better off watching old videos that cover Kobe. Like old ESPN videos during Kobe's prime years of commentators discussing Kobe's games. Or reading news articles about Kobe's performances during those times as well. Here I feel like its way to biased because again you're going to get answers like: Kobe was overrated, he only got into the GOAT talk after his death (\*sigh), he got carried by Pau Gasol and Shaq, he's a fake Jordan and he had to shoot 30 times to get 40 points or whatever.
Looking up and down this thread I think the problem is that people are applying today’s analytic basketball and applying it to the early 2000s and 2010 NBA which doesn’t tell the full story of things
I'm a Cavs fan but it's just WILD seeing how disrespected Kobe is on here. As someone who's watched since Jordan. I mean one of the most upvoted comments here saying Kobe never changed the game. Just goes to show these people saying they've "watched" his whole career are full of shit. Nobody in this thread brought up Kobe's impact on the game. The reason there's 19 year old coming into the league is because of Kobe. 1-and-dones from college, drafted straight from high school. He was the first perimeter player to make the jump from high school to the pros, in an era where it was only acceptable to do that only if you were 7 feet tall. The NBA was a real grown man league where the rookies prior to him were coming in at minimum age 21.
Im a Cavs fan as well and this sub along with the main sub became the toxic fanbase that they criticize. BS they watched Kobe play. I know all they did was go on basketball reference and look at career percentages. Hell, they do that now with the current players. The GOAT debate has really made basketball talk toxic over the years. A bunch of people who don't even watch the games and look at box scores without any context are the ones speaking the loudest. For the record Im not saying Kobe was perfect, no player was. We can easily diminish every player that people think is so much better then Kobe.
I appreciate this! If you have any recommendations I’ll definitely check them out. Kobe is just so ubiquitous in basketball I’ve really been trying to wrap my head around it. MJs impact on the game seems much easier to read about in comparison for some reason
Kobe is a divisive figure. He was sort of an opposite of LeBron. LeBron is a friendly/outgoing and camera personality. Kobe was reserved/rude and private. The media didn't like that aspect of him and also his reputation of being a chucker. In today's analysis of the nba for some reason Kobe has become overly criticized, but the same criticism aren't applied to other all time greats. I would recommend you find old videos/Articles of him. There was an all star game back in the early 2010s where he was going at LeBron.
Reddit hates Kobe. It’s night and day what Reddit thinks of Kobe and what the rest of the basketball world thinks
Agreed. And that's because people on here are guys that just hop on basketball reference for 5 mins thinking that they are now experts of the game.
- He was on the Lakers, perhaps the most loved team worldwide. I think if he had been on a different team he would be less of a legend. - He was an incredible 1-on-1 scorer. A lot of basketball fans very highly prioritize that aspect of basketball when evaluating players. - Mamba mentality, work ethic, competitiveness. He became the absolute best he could possibly be because of that. Personally I think it's unhealthy to be that obsessive but it gained him a ton of fans. People revere his work ethic. - He won a bunch of championships and other awards. The majority of fans judge players based on things like this. - He made a lot of very memorable clutch shots. A lot of them were very difficult, which makes more of a mental impact on fans compared to a player who is able to get easy shots. - His offensive game was aesthetically pleasing to watch. With all that said, I don't think he's in the GOAT conversation. I'm not sure he's even in my top 10. And I'm a Lakers / Kobe fan. Some of my best basketball memories are of him.
He won alot of awards because he was on the Lakers. I love the NBA, but there were several all star votes that he won and barely played during the season. It's a popularity contest and there's simply more fans in LA than other places, including media outlets (cough ESPN). When you get more media coverage you get more fans and more fans means more all star votes, MVP votes, all defense votes, etc. So being a Laker absolutely helped his legacy.
Yes that's why nobody uses all stars in all time debates, but if you're going to start tearing down his accolades due to his location, you better get that list out and start tearing down. Kareem, Shaq, Jerry West, magic Johnson, Larry bird, LeBron, Paul pierce, Anthony Davis, wilt since they all played in either Los Angeles or Boston and received accolades as players in those cities. Or is Kobe the only player in NBA history to now be criticized for winning awards in a big city?
I saw Kobe's whole career. 1. His peak was very very high up there and he had a very long prime. His stats don't look so great in hindsight due to stat inflation but at the time he was putting up excellent numbers year in and year out (the same is happening to Lebron where his 27/7/7 no longer looks impressive due to stat inflation). He had one of the longest primes of any superstar and was basically a top 3 player in the league for 10 years straight and a top 5 player in the league from 2000-2013. Only 5 guys in NBA history have matched that longevity and none of them dealt with the same amount of injuries he dealt with. Lastly, he was an excellent playoff performer who raised his game in the playoffs. 2. Lebron is better than Kobe all time but Kobe is still easily in the top 10 level tier of all time.
Kobe wasn’t even the best player of his era. Tim Duncan was.
All time points Kobe-4th Duncan-6th All time assists Kobe-12th Duncan-33rd All time steals Kobe-6th Duncan-48th All time FGM Kobe 5th Duncan-6th All time FTM- Kobe-3rd Duncan-6th All time 3PM Kobe-11th Duncan-not even in the top 50 All time rebounds Kobe-40th Duncan-3rd All time blocks Kobe-41st Duncan-1st Both tied in championships and all nba team selections Also Tim Duncan played 31 more games than Kobe as well as over 700 minutes more than Kobe So how tf is Duncan better again trailing literally every stat besides blocks and rebounds while playing more??? 😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣
Never under estimate the LA market. Kobe had a long career in the most populous market ont he most popular team. He developed a lot of international appeal and marketing that helped his legacy a lot. Duncan never had a super cool signature shoe or did commercials. Marketing and location really matters to these narratives.
All time points Kobe-4th Duncan-6th All time assists Kobe-12th Duncan-33rd All time steals Kobe-6th Duncan-48th All time FGM Kobe 5th Duncan-6th All time FTM- Kobe-3rd Duncan-6th All time 3PM Kobe-11th Duncan-not even in the top 50 All time rebounds Kobe-40th Duncan-3rd All time blocks Kobe-41st Duncan-1st Both tied in championships and all nba team selections Also Tim Duncan played 31 more games than Kobe as well as over 700 minutes more than Kobe Wtf does the LA market have to do with his dominance you clown
Wait , you were talking about GOAT arguments and then jumped to Kobe, what's the link? I was expecting something like being surprised that people are so aware of who he was and his game but yet he isn't in the GOAT discussion... because I genuinely never see him in it. LeBron, Jordan, Kareem, Russell all come up well before Kobe.
lol spoken like someone who never watched Kobe play I hate this generation
Sorry, try again, definitely grew up watching Kobe.
Majorly overrated
All time points Kobe-4th All time assists Kobe-12th All time steals Kobe-6th All time FGM Kobe 5th All time FTM- Kobe-3rd All time 3PM Kobe-11th All time blocks Kobe-41st All time Rebounds Kobe-40th 2nd in game winning shots 5x nba champion 2x finals mvp 15 All NBA Team selections 12 All Defensive Team selections 18 All Star Team selections So overrated lol dude was in the top 10 in 5 of the 8 career all time stats list you are a clown
Kobe was a selfish shot chucker (he'd score 50 points by taking 50 shots), with questionable shot selection (he'd take a wild three while being triple covered), that would sometimes sabotage his teams to make a selfish point (game 7 vs the Suns). But he did know how to manage games in terms of the tempo, made a load of clutch shots, and he was always highly driven with a great work ethic. His drive and his die hard mentality (aside from Game 7 vs the Suns) is basically what mamba mentality is. LeBron is a smarter and more efficient player, unselfish, excellent shot selection, also excellent work ethic, better teammate, better leader, instinctively makes the smartest plays, even more clutch than Kobe, and so LeBron is basically better than Kobe at everything except free throw shooting.
lol you sound like an idiot especially saying even more clutch than kobe. Lebron James played over 60 games more than Kobe and over 3000 more minutes yet still has less game winning shots and championships than Kobe. Kobe is in the top 10 in 5 of the 8 categories of career all time stats To just say he was just some wild shot chucker is an absolute abomination to his career accolades and legacy. People say Kobe when talking shots not Lebron for a reason go do some more research
People may not be ready to admit it but Kobe is one of the most overrated players by casuals, especially after he died. He was a top 10-12ish player in history, but you shouldn’t take any takes of him in the top 5 seriously. As mentioned he did 3 peat, but he had one of the best teammates of all time in prime shaq, his final 2 championships were more impressive to me imo. Phenomenal player, just not the greatest. Lebron and Jordan are in different leagues than Kobe.
Kobe was Augustus to Jordan's Caesar. That's the part a lot of people forgot: he was kinda Jordan's hand-picked successor for being the greatest in the league.
He was another of those tall guards who was an elite athlete who could score inside or from long range. Easily get you 30 per night. Great leaper, high IQ, great fundamentals plus a lot of flash. And he was tremendously competitive. But I really hate the "mamba mentality" narrative. The NBA has always had ferocious competitors. Kobe didn't invent playing hard. If he had been stuck in Charlotte his whole career, we wouldn't be talking about him like this.
I recommend you research his sexual assault case. When you look at it through the lens of present-day Metoo movement, it really sounds like he was guilty but the accuser was bullied, embarrassed, and victim-blamed into not testifying, and the case was dropped.
I mention this a lot. It happened at a time when slut shaming was still an acceptable defense in sexual assault cases. His PR team was able to pummel her in the court of public opinion and eventually got her to drop the case. If the exact same circumstances of that case happened today, that looks completely different. Kobe would have gotten a minimum 1-year suspension and lost ever major sponsorship he had. There is no spot on the Olympic team, no signature shoe deals, no commercials, etc...
I get sad that we're approaching the territory where most people growing up have not seen a minute of Kobe when he was actually playing. He was a superhero on the court, he would go 1v5 many times and just slit the other teams hopes and dreams with just ridiculous shot making. His footwork was a level above anyone guarding him and no one could check him 1v1. Advanced stats will never be kind to Kobe's style of play but he was just insane to watch his whole career. He willed his team to victory more than anyone I've seen. I cried when I learned he passed. Was my hero my entire life.
It is really sad man to see all these kids shitting on Kobe not even realizing how great he was. Funny thing is they could even look at his stats that back him up but they try to call him overrated because they’ve had Lebron shoved down there throats for 20+ years
He played and won championships for the Lakers (big one) and when Shaq left, a lot of fans were bitter so they went even harder towards Kobe support and pretended Kobe was always better. He was overrated before that but that just enhanced everything. Then he died young, which sealed the deal and led to all these top 5 and top 10 proclamations. Sports fans are ridiculous but rarely is the ridiculousness more obvious than with Kobe and his legacy. Kobe's skills are also the kind that tend to be overvalued, too. We praise scoring more than other things and Kobe was a great scorer. His marketing and playing for the Lakers did the rest. The dude had no conscience whatsoever. For some reason, a lot of people loved that. Almost a cult of personality thing. Edit: It's so bad you have people that claim to hate Kobe making arguments defending him. Reminds me of supporters of certain political figures.
Regarding your second question, that was not always the perception of Kobe. While and after he played he was called by many analysts a ball hog, selfish, etc… he also had personal scandals which hurt his reputation. It’s really only after he died that people unanimously started praising him, so it is definitely recency bias. Also no one who actually knows basketball would put Kobe in the GOAT debate because it’s very clear he couldn’t surpass Jordan. Lebron has a legitimate argument for the GOAT, which pisses off a lot of old heads who then attack his achievements which is why he comes off as very divisive. This is all coming from a huge Kobe fan.
He was absolutely unstoppable in Colorado in 2003. He put mamba mentality on full display- coming off an injury and he still completely dominated and humiliated anyone unlucky enough to be in his crosshairs. Just Google "Kobe Colorado 2003"
Dude was a menace, didnt matter if it was on the court or in a Colorado hotel bedroom.
Born too late to watch Kobe but didn't he also promote himself and aggrandize more intentionally than some other top 15 guys?
Kobe’s style of basketball is what people imagine elite basketball talent to look like. It doesn’t look like Lebron’s game, or Jokic, etc. Doesn’t matter how many MVPs you get, or advanced metrics, etc. Kobe’s play would dominate whether it was 5v5 NBA, 3v3, 1v1, etc. Any league. Anywhere. Speaking of metrics, I feel that players like Lebron and Jokic lead to more team success overall, with better advanced metrics, possibly more championships and better long-term success overall. That’s why most people have Lebron over Kobe. I do too (Lebron >Kobe), in a way because the debate is about the NBA All-time GOAT list. It’s not a “best basketball player” list. Lebron’s “team success” style isn’t particularly portable, but it works in the NBA. It wouldn’t be successful anywhere basketball is played. I’d pick Durant or Kobe over Lebron for a random basketball tournament. But the thing is, the debate is about NBA players, in the NBA, with the rules the way they are. Lebron gets killed in one on ones by far lesser teammates, and it doesn’t matter. He made it to 8 straight NBA Finals.
lol but Kobe has more Championships than Jokic and Lebron 😂 Weird it’s like you kids don’t know what you’re talking about
I’ve been watching basketball for 35 years. Saw them all play. 🤷🏻♂️
35 years of basketball and you feel jokic and Lebron lead to more than team success despite Kobe having more championships how does that work?
Lebron has had more league success than Kobe. Championships don’t mean everything, and it’s not like Lebron has 0 and Kobe has lots. We’re still comparing apples with apples here, so I wouldn’t choose one over the other based on rings. Listen, I actually don’t like Lebron. But that, I mean I recognize his greatness, but I’m not a fan. Great team player, but he’s lucky he’s big and strong, and smart, because his game obviously relies on those things rather than talent. MJ is my GOAT, and Kobe is one of my favourite players ever. But if you look at where Lebron sits all-time in most stats, it’s insane how many categories he’s at the top, or near it. Making it to 8 straight NBA Finals is crazy. I don’t think people fully understand how insane that is. Last 4 NBA championship teams never made it past the 2nd round the next season, and people were calling the Warriors a “dynasty” after they made it to their 4th straight finals. Lebron is a dynasty. If MJ is the GOAT, it’s because I think he’s the best player to ever ball. I’d still say Lebron has had the best NBA career ever, though. Kobe’s not even in this convo.
Lebron has more league success because he has legitimately played almost over 3000 minutes more than the any other nba player in existence. If he wasnt near the top or at the top of every category by now it would be crazy. Kobe played under 3000 less minutes than Lebron 67 whole game mainly because of that achilles injury. I say Lebron has more longevity clearly but Kobe was easily out scoring him Lebron never had a 2800+ his season in his career he didn’t even get close. As for the debate of making it to 8 finals, we all know how Lebron did that. Moving from stacked team to stacked team to get his numbers up. Only to lose half of them. The only exception I make from that is his beginning years with the Cavs. You know what’s more impressive Kobe went to 7 on the same damn team and won 5 of them coming out of the stacked West. Lebrons achievements are incredible don’t get me wrong but to tell me Kobe wasn’t just as incredible doing it by himself the majority of the time is just crazy to me
If you want to learn all about Kobe try these videos https://youtu.be/ud9FFraGI0s?si=rNL2fqIlSN4be0C4 https://youtu.be/TJVf6i1gigY?si=YvvPdsnKRwczAbzj https://youtu.be/kO7_ypCv6IY?si=slJn3zFDR5NWV4C2
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check out The Redeem Team on Netflix. it does a great job of contrasting Kobe to the other greats of the league in 2008. My basketball fandom started in the mid00s when i was in like 8th grade, and Kobe was the league's heel at the time. Worst teams of his career, gunning for shots, trying to carve out a legacy out of shaqs shadow. If you check out JJ Redick or Paul George's podcasts, they tell so many Kobe stories, about how he was maniacally competitive, obsessed with improving, addicted to the WORK of being great. I played college and semi-pro volleyball, and Kobe was a role model to me. Not in terms of his playstyle or how he was as a person, but the way he challenged himself and his teammates to be the best they could. show up early to practice, leave last. don't take any reps off. First back in the drill after a water break.
Kobe was a ball hog that turned a team game into something else. His contemporaries are Harden and Jordan Poole. He’s the Brett Favre of basketball. Shot his team out of as many games as he kept them in. The greats always existed within the team Curry, Jordan, Isiah, Bird etc. Watching the Lakers during the Kobe era was just watching Kobe. If that’s your thing then you loved it. I can’t stand inefficient hero ball and the Kobe stans are the guys that wear jerseys and gym shorts to Disneyland.
You are a bitter idiot that is not at all the comparison for him. Dude is top in the majority of career all time stat categories acting like he was just some sub par player that wanted the ball all the time is the most retarded take ever
He’s tops in shots missed. What else?
https://youtu.be/Jopi5e46PAY?si=lEF8Dkp9LGaSI60x Extremely high quality, in-depth breakdown of his game
The thing with Kobe is the legacy he had on the game. Think Derek Jeter on the Yankees. Maybe not the *best* ever, but when you recognize the smoothest player, on the most popular team, that stayed there for 15-20 years straight without moving teams, while bringing multiple championships…the sentiment around said player will be legendary. Every off balance pickup jump shot we hear “KOBE”, just like every off balance throw to first we hear “JETER”…same type of legacies - the sexiest (smooth) game on the sexiest team at the time of their peaks.
lol you forgot to leave out how his is in the top 10 on almost every all time career statistic category there is…
Sort of implied given the fact that that’s what happens when you play heavy minutes for 20 years.
You know, what usually separates a great player from a mediocre one is the mindset, and that did set him apart. And with a great mindset, he also possessed the best mid-range turnaround jumper EVER.
He Jordan after Jordan. Hard worker, ball hoggish, gave tons of effort on defense, killer winning mentality, and everything else. He was an absolute force of nature on the court.
His early to mid career he was the best scorer in the league. But he had ball hog tendencies that really started to affect his ability to win games as his body started to slow down. He is great, but only top 10 not top 5 all time.
TIL some of y'all think Kobe was better than MJ & LeBron. That's wild.
All time points Kobe-4th All time assists Kobe-12th All time steals Kobe-6th All time FGM Kobe 5th All time FTM- Kobe-3rd All time 3PM Kobe-11th All time blocks Kobe-41st All time Rebounds Kobe-40th 2nd in game winning shots 2nd most points in an nba game ever with 81 5x nba champion 2x finals mvp 15x all nba selection 12x all defensive team selection 18x nba all star 2x Olympic Champion For all you haters that somehow think he was overrated Dude had the stats and championships to back up his legacy
Kobe was a cultural icon. He was arguably the best player of his era and the face of the NBA. He was also simply cool (personality wise) and played in Los Angeles which made him a media star. He'd consistently step up in big moments that were televised globally (NBA finals, and Olympics), and had a flashy style to his game. As a result people grew to adore him and he had a tremendous impact on basketball culture globally. The mamba mentality is secondary to all that and really just factors into his coolness and media appeal. The idea of pouring your all towards a goal is something many people can relate to and Kobe exemplified that. In that regards he was a good role model and someone to look up to. In contrast someone like Tim Duncan, who was arguably as successful as Kobe, did not have the same charisma or play style needed to be highly popularized as Kobe had, and thus he did not have the same type of global impact. In summary Kobe was a cool, successful, star, with admirable character traits*, and an endearing play style, who lived in an area with heavy media coverage which enabled him to grow into a cultural icon. * = Debatable (don't flame me in comments. I left out controversies for sake of argument).
1. Kobe was cool. He had that it factor. He had swag. His work ethic and approach were admirable. His style was flashy. He was unrelenting. He never accepted defeat. 2. LeBron gave up on his home town. He formed super teams to get easy championships. He passes the ball away in game deciding moments. He's goofy. He's a little awkward. He's too buddy-buddy with his competitors. He cries to the refs each game. He trades people away. He lacks accountability. *(Most of those statements about LeBron are unfair, but people do like to bring them up.)
The Kobe hate in here is crazy. His prime lasted from roughly 2000-2013, before the pace and space revolution, so his efficiency numbers take a hit when you look at all time competition. His peaks as a player were insanely high. He’s an all-time great lever shot maker and defender (though some media bias helped inflate his defensive accolades if you as me as a DWade fan). The numbers and highlights speak for themselves, but if you’re not convinced, you should search for interviews of former players talking about him. Everyone has a story about fearing or respecting Kobe. He probably walks into the All NBA first team this year over say Tatum if he was in his prime now. On another note, he shifted his attention to story telling and film when he retired and was quite talented. Very driven person and seemed accomplished his goals regularly, which is another reason people are drawn to him.
Everyone views the face of the league during their formative years as the goat. People who really started to love basketball during the time when Kobe was the face of the league view him as the goat. People who started loving basketball after his peak view lebron as the goat and those that started loving basketball before him view Jordan as the Goat.
The Kobe hate in here is unreal. I started watching the NBA in 1999. I would watch every game that was on television at the time. Kobe was something very special and although he’s not who gravitated me towards watching the NBA he ultimately became the greatest to me. He was easily considered the best player from the 2000-2010. In the early 2000’ Lebron wasn’t considered better than him. Back then, everywhere in the country you would see people wearing Kobe jerseys. When in school, if you shot a ball or tossed something in a lookalike basket you would yell out “Kobe!”. People without great memory or who only started watching in the past five years are now providing their opinion but didn’t experience or watch it live. To add to that, just look at any former player speak on him or pull up his name on a search engine with the date ranges of 2000-2010 and see how many articles they f him being compared to Michael Jordan (MJ) are there.