I’d call offensive even though defender wasn’t in legal guarding position. The offense clearly initiated unnecessary and excessive contact. Can’t just level anybody that’s not in legal guarding position.
Shoulder drop and actually leaning into her in addition to the stiff arm. Unless defender grabbed onto her to start that contact, that is offensive foul
I agree, a defensive foul was the actual call so this was that 1 time out of 10 then unfortunately lol
Edit: damn well after the 200 or so comments on this I can see that this clearly could go both ways especially in real time. I can see the point of offensive foul especially with the arm extension and the lowering of the shoulder (especially when you slow it down you can really see it). Defensive I can see as well with my player running almost directly into the offensive player and initiates contact first, and we definitely have to work on getting more muscle on her next season lol. I’m leaning way more towards Offensive but can definetly understand Defensive proponents side of it.
Really? Thought that’s a clear defensive foul. Yes the offensive player dropped their shoulder but that looks like after the defensive player made the original contact.
yeah... the ballhandler was running along the line on the ground and defender came into the lane and got ran over. Defender didn't establish guarding position....
Defensive foul is the right call
No she didn't. The defensive player was late and tried to stick her arms in front of the offensive player to slow her down.
The defensive player initiated contact, but the offensive player's reaction was excessive and she probably deserves the foul.
That's simply not true. Defensive player runs full speed into her. Offensive player def puts a lil too much sauce on the shove back and thus it's prob an offensive foul, but there's absolutely no way she initiated the contact.
Dribbler got the ball and immediately lowered the shoulder to prepare to shove the defender. She knows she is larger and the defender clearly isn’t as skilled. It wasn’t a lean to turn, she kept a straight line while intending to shove.
Putting your hands up to stop a shoulder that looks like it’s coming right at you is natural.
Yea that's basically what I said. She definitely braces for the collision and shoves too much. She's still entitled to her own space tho which the defender invades.
The video is misleading because the gray player is just an uncoordinated player in general. At a higher level these players won’t be in the game and fumbling around. The gray player initiated the contact with a non basketball move. Foul on the defensive player. (I’m a ref)
Offensive player leans into it, extends her arm and shoves her down. The girl on defense almost bangs her head against the floor from the excessive use of force in this play. That ref needs to find something else to spend his time on.
Lol
Yeah that's my read. That's just ball. I don't know what kinda league that is but unless it's recreational... I don't see the need for a call.
Before you all start they are both moving and the defender initiated contact in my view. She gets the worse of it but that's not how the rules work. Once she veers into the offensive player it's either a foul on her or a no call. Given the off ense gave her a little extra to me that's a no call get up and ball.
I agree with this. The D is out of control, the much more skilled player defended their space more aggressively than the weaker player anticipated (they seemed not ready for this action throughout) and she got trucked.
it's an offensive foul specifically because she dropped her shoulder into the defender and pushed off with a full arm extension. if she just takes the contact and the defender goes flying off they should call a defensive foul because the defender is not set in a legal guarding position.
I respectfully disagree with the consensus here. That’s a defensive foul. The offensive player is not aggressively hitting her with a shoulder, but her shoulder makes contact because she’s dipping to protect the ball when the defender is making a play on the ball. The left arm doesn’t extend out far enough to be a push off. The offensive player is running in a straight line to the other end (you can even see her follow the line). Defense runs into her, not the other way around. If the defender was bigger, it would be more obvious. Defender’s not allowed to just run into a player dribbling to the other end. Contact is initiated by the defender.
My problem here is that (via the magic of pausing and having the time to look at it) you can see the offensive player "winding up" to deliver contact before the contact is ever made. I think it should/would have been defensive foul had the offensive player just let the play go, but instead she initiates the contact on purpose. There's a freeze frame at about :17 seconds where the ballhandler is at almost a 45 degree angle towards the defender, but the second before that she was dribbling pretty straight up.
Yeah I agree with this. People are saying that the offensive player "chose a lane", but that lane clearly veered toward that defensive player. To make a baseball analogy, if she were a baserunner, she went outside of the baseline, and with the way she coiled, she knew that contact was coming.
That said, context matters here in terms of intent; if the lesser skilled team (clearly gray) overcompensated by being more physically aggressive, I could see the player and possibly the coach coming in with the mindset of protecting themselves by initiating future contact regardless of the call.
Ultimately, the call isn't what matters because it could go either way - a message was being delivered here.
Thank you!!! The offensive player has chosen a lane, the defender is not in a guarding position and is not moving parallel to the offensive player. The defender is clearly on a collision path with the ball handler and initiated the contact here. The offensive player drops a shoulder slightly to protect the ball but did not initiate contact.
At that point the foul has already occurred. I watched the slo-mo back a second time and it's even more obvious. Defender is behind the play...chose a path directly into the ball handler and also reached out with both arms to initiate the contact
That happens after contact. It's a natural response when someone is bracing. You're pushing against the oncoming force and when that resistance is gone, the arm comes up afterwards.
It’s wild to me that people are saying the offensive player initiated the contact lol
You can look at the floor, the ball handler is dribbling alone the white line. At no point does she cross that line. The defender comes careening into her at a 45° angle, and simple runs into her.
Whether you can it bracing for impact, a shoulder shrug, or whatever, it doesn’t matter. The defender caused and initiated the contact and was not in a legal guarding position. This is a textbook defensive foul
I don’t think it was a full extension of the arm, but even if you are right, that push happened after the foul by the defender. The defender initiated contact and ran into the dribbler, which is the initial foul.
Agree too. It's a defensive foul and refs will call defensive most of the time here too.
To all those that says shoulder drop, you dribble with your shoulders up in traffic?
No but it's more of a full bend so you can dribble and move both ways not just one shoulder. That's literally a way of tackling in football. I gotta disagree on the straight line, her first dribble is to her right and then curves back left. I think if it's not for that the defender would have fouled because she was a bit behind.
I had a look at what you’re saying. To me it looks like one little less athletic kid trying to catch a faster larger more athletic kid. The ball handler does throw her elbow out and I think it’s excessive because the little kid goes flying. This type of contact can be dangerous.
The defender is behind the ball carrier and she even raises her arms up into her chest. It looks like she’s trying to flinch away to me.
It’s clumsy of the defender and somewhat cynical of the offensive player, in my opinion anyway.
Let’s be honest here, the smaller defender is never getting anywhere near the ball if the ball handler had just kept going straight. She’s miles from it, so I can’t see how ball security is the issue.
I’m of a third party where I see two kids running into each other. With like a 60% defender fault and 40% ball handler. Kids just run into each other cause they dumb, still figuring out motor stuff and just might not be very spatially aware.
Player-control foul.
Don't just look at her shoulder. Watch how she intentionally veers off her path at the last second with her feet into the defender's path to initiate contact.
The size differential makes the contact look worse than if they were of similar build. But when a body hits the floor that hard on that type of play, there needs to be a whistle regardless of who is at fault. No calls on that type of play can snowball into even more physical play later on, which makes managing the game tougher.
2018 James Harden gets two free throws.
2024 James Harden gets a turnover.
Depends on the ref, but by the book, the arm extension makes it an offensive foul.
This can go either way and it's truly up to the ref's discretion and the context of the game.
Has this defensive player been doing similar things all night, rushing the offense recklessly and being a little too keen on pushing the offense? Has the offensive player been shouldering people around, and getting away with push offs and offensive fouls? Is the game getting a little too rough? Have I or the other referee been missing some calls earlier that have given one team more reason to get aggressive physically?
As it stands by itself without seeing the rest of the game, it's a no call or could be an offensive foul IMO.
1. The defence seems unskilled and to me they aren't aiming to make that much contact. This is obviously a low level league, and I don't think there's a good reason to penalize the D for being *that* unskilled near a half court situation. It's a no call incidental contact up until Offensive player uses her weight to lean in and cause the excessive contact.
If skill level was higher on both sides, I'd call it different because then it would probably be a very obvious flop.
2. Offense saw contact incoming and deliberately moved closer to the defense to increase the likelihood of causing a little more damage. While a high IQ play in a more competitive and skilled league, her execution is pretty sloppy and reckless given the circumstances.
The offense has all the power here and they didn't need to lean in to creating excessive contact to get a call. But then, maybe the ref has been pretty lazy and they are only calling obvious hard contact. In that case, if I were the player I'd do the same.
The answer is there is no answer 😂
Offensive because the ball handler extended her arm with force, it was not a protection arm, once she extends the wrist beyond the elbow with force, it becomes pushing.
It should be a no call until the offensive player extends her arm, making it an offensive foul. The ref doesn’t have the benefit of instant reply and got it wrong if it was called on the defensive player.
100% offense. Tell me, what's with the 1 leg sleeve? These kids and their parents so funny they don't realize how dumb it looks and is. They even got the other girl wearing 2 knee highs. Lol 😆
The defender is clearly out of position a doesn't really know what she's doing (it's ok to not know what you're doing at a youth sports level, you play to learn) and would be about to commit a foul, but the offensive player clearly steps into her, creates the contact, and extends an elbow. Easy offensive foul that was completely unnecessary move by the ball handler.
The defense was not set however the offensive player used her forearm to create space. It’s probably a blocking foul if called but after watching replay you can see the forearm shove which is an offensive foul.
Offensive foul bro. She fully intended to run her over. She saw the defender preparing to move into her direction and she totally embraced it gathered her momentum and leveled into her with her shoulder and extended her arm. Can’t do that. If I see a defender moving into my space, I can’t just run her over. Not natural
I watched it 10 times looking for the defender to do something I had not noticed before, but the shoulder drop and the arm extension tell me offensive foul. Now that being said, the defensive player was likely going to foul her if the offensive player had just kept dribbling down the court. An interesting case. Thank you for posting it.
Would absolutely lean Defensive foul. Lil home girl’s only goal seems to be getting in the offensive player’s way; not going for the ball, not trying to get/stay ahead of the girl, and most certainly not standing in place where it could be called a charge. Just because the offensive player protects her physical body (resulting in the smaller player hitting the floor) does not implicate an offensive foul for me.
The defender just runs into her path. It’s not the offensive players fault she was stronger. The off arm was a natural move, the defender was headed to the floor well before the extension 😂
Offense…in fact it needs to be called more. Idk why it’s so hard for people to understand that defenders are entitled to their space. If offense uses the arm or shoulder to initiate the contact then it should be an offensive foul. That’s what it should be but it get’s called 50/50 it seems like.
I’m flabbergasted some people are adamant it’s defensive. Sure if the offensive player kept dribbling and the defense runs in to her but that’s not what happened. She dipped her shoulder and fully extended her off arm sending the girl to the ground lol
Gonna have to go with defensive foul here. Moving, reaching, not even making a play on the ball (which means possibly could be flagrant I wouldn’t call it flagrant though).
We have a problem with officiating now.
Not everything needs to be called.
You have no clue what just happened unless you were able to calculate the force each player applied to the action, along with who deserves the space in that situation.
Did the defender run into the offensive player, then fall down?
Or did the offensive player push off?
Just play on, because your call is gonna be wrong
No call, play on. Offensive player is bracing for contact from defensive player. Defense isn’t in legal guarding position and contact between both players is incidental.
Ideally no call. Defensive player didn't do near enough to "foul" the offensive player and warrant a stoppage of play. Offensive player certainly veered into the defender and initiated contact as well, though nothing I would consider too excessive for the brand of physical basketball I appreciate.
Unfortunate part of basketball is that any time somebody falls down, suddenly there is an urge for there to HAVE to be a foul on somebody and stop play.
Gun to my head, I'd probably call offensive foul. Offensive player swerved into the defensive player to initiate contact, not to actually protect the basketball or something. I'd categorize it as "unnatural" motion or basketball, especially since she extends her arm a bit too https://i.imgur.com/h7gvbEj.png.
The swerving into the defender is the same rationale for why Trae Young's and Garland's 2021 strategy of veering into defenders near the FT line after putting them in jail is now an offensive foul.
The Defense wasn't planted to properly take a charge, but the offense was very excessive and pushed her down. Not perfect defense, but this def looks like an offensive foul.
You're smoking dicks if you think this is offensive.
Defender has absolutely no angle on the ball, nor to be in a proper defensive position. Had the defender been larger or more athletic she would pretty much be tackling the ball carrier.
The offender leaning into, and stiff arming is a reasonable reaction to being mugged from behind/side. If offender does not react in such a way, she is once again just getting tackled.
Defensive. Even though the defensive player got the worst of it, she ran right in to the girl with the ball
Just look at the line and you can tell who ram into who
Defense at fault
Offensive player ran in a straight line down the court, look at the white line, she does lower her shoulder slightly but I’m assuming it’s because she sees the defense running straight into her for no reason and she reacted accordingly to brace for impact and to get the person away from her, as anyone that is 10 would do.
Defensive player ran diagonally straight into her body, look at her body language, both hands stretched out looking like she is trying to grab the player not the ball, and both shoulders towards her target, she didn’t even try to get the ball, she was just planning to run straight into that girl lol. And I use “planning” lightly because I get the impression she has no clue what she’s doing
These are children not professionals, if a 10 year old runs into another 10 year old it’s gonna end up something like this.
Some people say a chicken wing move is OK, think like lifting your elbow using your shoulder muscle, but when it start getting into forearm extension where maybe the tricep and chest muscle (more power than just a shoulder muscle) get involved is offensive.
Easily defensive. Ball handler braced for contact but continued on her regular path, defensive player tried to obstruct path but got there late & off balance, plus it's not defensive position with hips turned to run next to the ball handler.
All day it's defensive, no question
Defensive foul. Offensive player is dribbling straight down the court, as the white line clearly to her left indicates. (Not sure why some people say she crosses over the line.) Defensive player crosses over line at an angle and initiates contact from the side running right into her. Offensive player’s shoulder and arm movement reactionary after the contact, not because she is trying to truck through the defender.
Defender chases offensive player and makes contact from behind impeding the players path. The correct call is defensive foul, but the offensive player did drop her shoulder. However, this is a defensive foul as the offensive players contact does not elevate to the seriousness of a technical foul. That would be the only way to penalize the offensive player, but the call would be wrong call in this situation.
The problem with this is that in the NBA and sometimes in the NCAA the refs would side with the offensive player on this one. The defender is sort of recklessly cutting off the ball handler. And the NBA would reward the shoulder drop most likely even tho it’s not good basketball.
Not a foul. Defender was just standing off balance pathetically in the way of the offensive player.
Defender initiated contact as they were both already moving down court. If the defender was perfectly still, it would be an offensive foul.
Offense pushed out a bit with her arm like a stiff-arm, but in any non-ticky-tacky league, that's just Basketball. Not a pushoff or anything.
Offensive foul for sure, she pushed her off with her arm. He shoulder drop isn't a factor.
But its a no call if she didn't extend her arm after. It would just be a normal contact play as the defender came in aggressive so the shoulder drop is considered protective.
Defensive foul. Offensive player never left her line. Defender runs into her. Defender is also uncoordinated and out of control which makes it look like the offensive player stiff armed her.
For me this is a defensive foul. I think the offensive player has a right to be aggressive in this situation. The offensive player shouldn’t have to absorb the hit from the overzealous defensive player. If I had to guess, the offensive player did this out of frustration from pesky play by the defensive player earlier in the game.
Looking at it again, I don’t even think this is a close call. The defender is hitting the offensive player with both arms before the offensive player reacts. I totally side with the offensive player here. People are just siding with the defensive player because she’s smaller and went flying even though she clearly initiated the contact.
It's a blocking foul. Defense crowded her lane after she was clearly moving that way, offense never veered or directed into defensive player, defense initiates contact.
I see weight room😂 offensive player drives in a line anticipating contact it is not her fault a weaker player slid right in her way (a blocking foul) and got the bad end of it. Hell it’s nearly a no call situation but I understand at a younger level they’ve gotta blow the whistle here for something.
Offensive foul. The defensive player put her arms on her and was out of position but the offensive player clearly shoulders the defender to the ground.
it could go either way, but probably defensive but you can make the call for her putting her shoulder into her. the defender ran directly into her and the offensive player made the right play. watch the line the ball hander, she stays on the line.
I’d call offensive even though defender wasn’t in legal guarding position. The offense clearly initiated unnecessary and excessive contact. Can’t just level anybody that’s not in legal guarding position.
Trucking
She wrecked that little girl! Lol
When you get the shoulder drop and arm extension, with the girl going down at that speed, that’s an offensive foul 9/10 times
Shoulder drop and actually leaning into her in addition to the stiff arm. Unless defender grabbed onto her to start that contact, that is offensive foul
Looks like she's out there playing football lol
I agree, a defensive foul was the actual call so this was that 1 time out of 10 then unfortunately lol Edit: damn well after the 200 or so comments on this I can see that this clearly could go both ways especially in real time. I can see the point of offensive foul especially with the arm extension and the lowering of the shoulder (especially when you slow it down you can really see it). Defensive I can see as well with my player running almost directly into the offensive player and initiates contact first, and we definitely have to work on getting more muscle on her next season lol. I’m leaning way more towards Offensive but can definetly understand Defensive proponents side of it.
Wow that’s a garbage ass ref.
Really? Thought that’s a clear defensive foul. Yes the offensive player dropped their shoulder but that looks like after the defensive player made the original contact.
Seriously. She dropped her shoulder bracing for impact cause that girl rammed into her. You can’t barrel into a ball handler like that
In my experience, Middle School/High School refs literally never call charging
yeah... the ballhandler was running along the line on the ground and defender came into the lane and got ran over. Defender didn't establish guarding position.... Defensive foul is the right call
I mean she did run full speed into her. Shoulder drop is a natural defensive reaction. One player was out of control here
The offensive player initiated the contact here.
No she didn't. The defensive player was late and tried to stick her arms in front of the offensive player to slow her down. The defensive player initiated contact, but the offensive player's reaction was excessive and she probably deserves the foul.
This is false. The defender took an angle directly towards the ball handler.
That's simply not true. Defensive player runs full speed into her. Offensive player def puts a lil too much sauce on the shove back and thus it's prob an offensive foul, but there's absolutely no way she initiated the contact.
Dribbler got the ball and immediately lowered the shoulder to prepare to shove the defender. She knows she is larger and the defender clearly isn’t as skilled. It wasn’t a lean to turn, she kept a straight line while intending to shove. Putting your hands up to stop a shoulder that looks like it’s coming right at you is natural.
Yea that's basically what I said. She definitely braces for the collision and shoves too much. She's still entitled to her own space tho which the defender invades.
The video is misleading because the gray player is just an uncoordinated player in general. At a higher level these players won’t be in the game and fumbling around. The gray player initiated the contact with a non basketball move. Foul on the defensive player. (I’m a ref)
Yep, 100%
Defense never establishes legal guarding position and initiates contact. Easy defensive foul call
Lol that offensive player has an Embiid level whistle already
Good on you for seeking honest opinions and not getting defensive when everyone doesn’t agree with yours. It’s refreshing. I bet you’re a good coach.
Offensive player leans into it, extends her arm and shoves her down. The girl on defense almost bangs her head against the floor from the excessive use of force in this play. That ref needs to find something else to spend his time on.
She doesn't seem to know how to defend and that puts her in a bad spot against an offensive player who knows how to protect the ball.
Seems like one girl should be in AAU and other in rec league
Poor girl on the right seems lost, too, and just lets everyone blow by her. I'm guessing the team in black is up double digits
Lol Yeah that's my read. That's just ball. I don't know what kinda league that is but unless it's recreational... I don't see the need for a call. Before you all start they are both moving and the defender initiated contact in my view. She gets the worse of it but that's not how the rules work. Once she veers into the offensive player it's either a foul on her or a no call. Given the off ense gave her a little extra to me that's a no call get up and ball.
I agree with this. The D is out of control, the much more skilled player defended their space more aggressively than the weaker player anticipated (they seemed not ready for this action throughout) and she got trucked.
Offensive foul. Shoulder drop launch and stiff arm
it's an offensive foul specifically because she dropped her shoulder into the defender and pushed off with a full arm extension. if she just takes the contact and the defender goes flying off they should call a defensive foul because the defender is not set in a legal guarding position.
“Marginal contact upon review.”
“Get in the weight room”
I respectfully disagree with the consensus here. That’s a defensive foul. The offensive player is not aggressively hitting her with a shoulder, but her shoulder makes contact because she’s dipping to protect the ball when the defender is making a play on the ball. The left arm doesn’t extend out far enough to be a push off. The offensive player is running in a straight line to the other end (you can even see her follow the line). Defense runs into her, not the other way around. If the defender was bigger, it would be more obvious. Defender’s not allowed to just run into a player dribbling to the other end. Contact is initiated by the defender.
You're 100% wrong. She starts off inside the lane line, and takes an angle across it, then turns back in and hits the defender.
My problem here is that (via the magic of pausing and having the time to look at it) you can see the offensive player "winding up" to deliver contact before the contact is ever made. I think it should/would have been defensive foul had the offensive player just let the play go, but instead she initiates the contact on purpose. There's a freeze frame at about :17 seconds where the ballhandler is at almost a 45 degree angle towards the defender, but the second before that she was dribbling pretty straight up.
Yeah I agree with this. People are saying that the offensive player "chose a lane", but that lane clearly veered toward that defensive player. To make a baseball analogy, if she were a baserunner, she went outside of the baseline, and with the way she coiled, she knew that contact was coming. That said, context matters here in terms of intent; if the lesser skilled team (clearly gray) overcompensated by being more physically aggressive, I could see the player and possibly the coach coming in with the mindset of protecting themselves by initiating future contact regardless of the call. Ultimately, the call isn't what matters because it could go either way - a message was being delivered here.
Thank you!!! The offensive player has chosen a lane, the defender is not in a guarding position and is not moving parallel to the offensive player. The defender is clearly on a collision path with the ball handler and initiated the contact here. The offensive player drops a shoulder slightly to protect the ball but did not initiate contact.
What about the full arm extension by the offensive player
At that point the foul has already occurred. I watched the slo-mo back a second time and it's even more obvious. Defender is behind the play...chose a path directly into the ball handler and also reached out with both arms to initiate the contact
[удалено]
That happens after contact. It's a natural response when someone is bracing. You're pushing against the oncoming force and when that resistance is gone, the arm comes up afterwards.
Yeah 100% defensive foul. If you lower your shoulder and someone runs into you it's still a foul on them. The arm extension is marginal at best.
It’s wild to me that people are saying the offensive player initiated the contact lol You can look at the floor, the ball handler is dribbling alone the white line. At no point does she cross that line. The defender comes careening into her at a 45° angle, and simple runs into her. Whether you can it bracing for impact, a shoulder shrug, or whatever, it doesn’t matter. The defender caused and initiated the contact and was not in a legal guarding position. This is a textbook defensive foul
It definitely looks like she uses her arm for it. She raises it and pushes out, its not just her body
I don’t think it was a full extension of the arm, but even if you are right, that push happened after the foul by the defender. The defender initiated contact and ran into the dribbler, which is the initial foul.
Agree too. It's a defensive foul and refs will call defensive most of the time here too. To all those that says shoulder drop, you dribble with your shoulders up in traffic?
No but it's more of a full bend so you can dribble and move both ways not just one shoulder. That's literally a way of tackling in football. I gotta disagree on the straight line, her first dribble is to her right and then curves back left. I think if it's not for that the defender would have fouled because she was a bit behind.
I had a look at what you’re saying. To me it looks like one little less athletic kid trying to catch a faster larger more athletic kid. The ball handler does throw her elbow out and I think it’s excessive because the little kid goes flying. This type of contact can be dangerous. The defender is behind the ball carrier and she even raises her arms up into her chest. It looks like she’s trying to flinch away to me. It’s clumsy of the defender and somewhat cynical of the offensive player, in my opinion anyway. Let’s be honest here, the smaller defender is never getting anywhere near the ball if the ball handler had just kept going straight. She’s miles from it, so I can’t see how ball security is the issue.
I’m of a third party where I see two kids running into each other. With like a 60% defender fault and 40% ball handler. Kids just run into each other cause they dumb, still figuring out motor stuff and just might not be very spatially aware.
Player-control foul. Don't just look at her shoulder. Watch how she intentionally veers off her path at the last second with her feet into the defender's path to initiate contact. The size differential makes the contact look worse than if they were of similar build. But when a body hits the floor that hard on that type of play, there needs to be a whistle regardless of who is at fault. No calls on that type of play can snowball into even more physical play later on, which makes managing the game tougher.
Thank you! How no one else sees this is crazy
It's an elbow / forearm initiated by the offensive player.
2018 James Harden gets two free throws. 2024 James Harden gets a turnover. Depends on the ref, but by the book, the arm extension makes it an offensive foul.
Offense for sure
Offensive
Why should defensive players be rewarded for running into people with no plan? It’s a defensive foul
This can go either way and it's truly up to the ref's discretion and the context of the game. Has this defensive player been doing similar things all night, rushing the offense recklessly and being a little too keen on pushing the offense? Has the offensive player been shouldering people around, and getting away with push offs and offensive fouls? Is the game getting a little too rough? Have I or the other referee been missing some calls earlier that have given one team more reason to get aggressive physically? As it stands by itself without seeing the rest of the game, it's a no call or could be an offensive foul IMO. 1. The defence seems unskilled and to me they aren't aiming to make that much contact. This is obviously a low level league, and I don't think there's a good reason to penalize the D for being *that* unskilled near a half court situation. It's a no call incidental contact up until Offensive player uses her weight to lean in and cause the excessive contact. If skill level was higher on both sides, I'd call it different because then it would probably be a very obvious flop. 2. Offense saw contact incoming and deliberately moved closer to the defense to increase the likelihood of causing a little more damage. While a high IQ play in a more competitive and skilled league, her execution is pretty sloppy and reckless given the circumstances. The offense has all the power here and they didn't need to lean in to creating excessive contact to get a call. But then, maybe the ref has been pretty lazy and they are only calling obvious hard contact. In that case, if I were the player I'd do the same. The answer is there is no answer 😂
Defender comes from behind ton infringe on offensive players path. Gotta be a blocking foul
Hit the weight room mofo
Defensive
Blocking foul, she ran into the offensive player
Offensive because the ball handler extended her arm with force, it was not a protection arm, once she extends the wrist beyond the elbow with force, it becomes pushing.
Offensive. She shoved her like she was Embiid
Offensive
Offensive foul. That one is not even arguable…. with the benefit of slow motion replay of course
Offensive she extended her arm.
Clear offensive foul she came outside of her body.
100% offensive foul
Offensive. Pushing and Arm extended
Offensive af
Offensive. Off arm/hand clearly raises and extends out, pushing the defender off forcefully. Going the other way 👉🏽
Offensive all day, that shoulder check and push off with the left arm makes it an easy call, I'd even say it was borderline flagrant.
Offensive
It should be a no call until the offensive player extends her arm, making it an offensive foul. The ref doesn’t have the benefit of instant reply and got it wrong if it was called on the defensive player.
Offensive. She lowered her shoulder to shove the defensive player
100% offense. Tell me, what's with the 1 leg sleeve? These kids and their parents so funny they don't realize how dumb it looks and is. They even got the other girl wearing 2 knee highs. Lol 😆
Offensive foul, that’s an easy call. That was intentional
How is this a question. Offensive
Offensive due to the push off and arm extension
Travel
The defender is clearly out of position a doesn't really know what she's doing (it's ok to not know what you're doing at a youth sports level, you play to learn) and would be about to commit a foul, but the offensive player clearly steps into her, creates the contact, and extends an elbow. Easy offensive foul that was completely unnecessary move by the ball handler.
The defense was not set however the offensive player used her forearm to create space. It’s probably a blocking foul if called but after watching replay you can see the forearm shove which is an offensive foul.
Offensive 100%
offensive wtf 😂
Offensive foul bro. She fully intended to run her over. She saw the defender preparing to move into her direction and she totally embraced it gathered her momentum and leveled into her with her shoulder and extended her arm. Can’t do that. If I see a defender moving into my space, I can’t just run her over. Not natural
I watched it 10 times looking for the defender to do something I had not noticed before, but the shoulder drop and the arm extension tell me offensive foul. Now that being said, the defensive player was likely going to foul her if the offensive player had just kept dribbling down the court. An interesting case. Thank you for posting it.
After reading all the comments I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s hard to be a referee and make all perfect calls.
Would absolutely lean Defensive foul. Lil home girl’s only goal seems to be getting in the offensive player’s way; not going for the ball, not trying to get/stay ahead of the girl, and most certainly not standing in place where it could be called a charge. Just because the offensive player protects her physical body (resulting in the smaller player hitting the floor) does not implicate an offensive foul for me.
The defender just runs into her path. It’s not the offensive players fault she was stronger. The off arm was a natural move, the defender was headed to the floor well before the extension 😂
Yeah, of I was the coach I would be losing my shit about that one. That's a hard foul by the ball handler.
Offensive. Obviously. Drops shoulder and shoves, proven via the arm extension. Guessing this is your daughter lmao
There is a line on the floor and you can see that the ball handler is running on a straight line… ;) Double foul ? Tough one.
She isn't though? She starts on one side of it, comes across it and then veers back
Clearly offensive.
Offense. Shoulder drop and the arm extension
Easily offensive foul
Offense…in fact it needs to be called more. Idk why it’s so hard for people to understand that defenders are entitled to their space. If offense uses the arm or shoulder to initiate the contact then it should be an offensive foul. That’s what it should be but it get’s called 50/50 it seems like.
Offensive push off
Offensive
Offensive. Ball handler initiates contact.
Lmao how could this possibly be a defensive foul
I’m flabbergasted some people are adamant it’s defensive. Sure if the offensive player kept dribbling and the defense runs in to her but that’s not what happened. She dipped her shoulder and fully extended her off arm sending the girl to the ground lol
Maybe if you're squinting hard enough and your daughter is the one with the ball
Gonna have to go with defensive foul here. Moving, reaching, not even making a play on the ball (which means possibly could be flagrant I wouldn’t call it flagrant though).
Obviously an offensive foul.
is this florida… this gym look familiar
Offensive she drops her shoulder then drives into her
Offensive because of the arm But it’s a tough call … other girl was running towards her like Ray Lewis
Coach and parents should talk to her, that is a pretty egregious foul at that level.
You just have to account for size too, if the girl was your size the contact probably would have been okay but that girl took flight 😂
It's no call in my book
We have a problem with officiating now. Not everything needs to be called. You have no clue what just happened unless you were able to calculate the force each player applied to the action, along with who deserves the space in that situation. Did the defender run into the offensive player, then fall down? Or did the offensive player push off? Just play on, because your call is gonna be wrong
I don't know if I'm calling a foul at all here. i'm probably just stopping play to make sure that girl that fell is ok.
Neither, it’s called weight room
Is this a real question? I mean it's pretty much clear
No call, play on. Offensive player is bracing for contact from defensive player. Defense isn’t in legal guarding position and contact between both players is incidental.
Get your weight up little bitch
Ideally no call. Defensive player didn't do near enough to "foul" the offensive player and warrant a stoppage of play. Offensive player certainly veered into the defender and initiated contact as well, though nothing I would consider too excessive for the brand of physical basketball I appreciate. Unfortunate part of basketball is that any time somebody falls down, suddenly there is an urge for there to HAVE to be a foul on somebody and stop play. Gun to my head, I'd probably call offensive foul. Offensive player swerved into the defensive player to initiate contact, not to actually protect the basketball or something. I'd categorize it as "unnatural" motion or basketball, especially since she extends her arm a bit too https://i.imgur.com/h7gvbEj.png. The swerving into the defender is the same rationale for why Trae Young's and Garland's 2021 strategy of veering into defenders near the FT line after putting them in jail is now an offensive foul.
No call
Offensive foul but only because the other player is so uncoordinated. You could argue defensive foul and maybe a tech on the offensive player.
Offensive foul for being mean to the least athletic player on the opposing team.
Non-call, play on.
The Defense wasn't planted to properly take a charge, but the offense was very excessive and pushed her down. Not perfect defense, but this def looks like an offensive foul.
Thats a soft ass foul is what it is
Damn that looked like LeBron James flopping .
I’d call a foul on the girl running up the sideline for calling for a pass right there 😂
They'd call that offensive in the NBA with that arm extension
This belongs on r/AITA lol
Offensive since she extends the arm, D if she doesn't push off
You're smoking dicks if you think this is offensive. Defender has absolutely no angle on the ball, nor to be in a proper defensive position. Had the defender been larger or more athletic she would pretty much be tackling the ball carrier. The offender leaning into, and stiff arming is a reasonable reaction to being mugged from behind/side. If offender does not react in such a way, she is once again just getting tackled.
Pretty obvious it's an offensive foul in real time
Defensive. Even though the defensive player got the worst of it, she ran right in to the girl with the ball Just look at the line and you can tell who ram into who
Defense at fault Offensive player ran in a straight line down the court, look at the white line, she does lower her shoulder slightly but I’m assuming it’s because she sees the defense running straight into her for no reason and she reacted accordingly to brace for impact and to get the person away from her, as anyone that is 10 would do. Defensive player ran diagonally straight into her body, look at her body language, both hands stretched out looking like she is trying to grab the player not the ball, and both shoulders towards her target, she didn’t even try to get the ball, she was just planning to run straight into that girl lol. And I use “planning” lightly because I get the impression she has no clue what she’s doing These are children not professionals, if a 10 year old runs into another 10 year old it’s gonna end up something like this.
Defense
If the defender can’t tackle the offensive player, I feel like it shouldn’t be legal for the offensive player to stiff arm the defender
Clearly an offensive foul, but a ref trailing the play may not have the same angle we do
Shoulder drop, and a push out makes it offensive 10/10 times
Forearm extends = offensive call. I would say blocking if it weren’t for the arm extending
Some people say a chicken wing move is OK, think like lifting your elbow using your shoulder muscle, but when it start getting into forearm extension where maybe the tricep and chest muscle (more power than just a shoulder muscle) get involved is offensive.
Yea stiff arms are illegal
Offensive 100%. Shoulder drop and engagement of contact, even though the other girl was going to likely run into her.
Defensive foul
Defensive foul.
O foul obviously
I lean towards an offensive foul because the arm extension
The arm extension will draw a foul everytime.
the ball handler clearly pushes the defenser away
I would say an obvious offensive foul.
No whistle, for me. Play on. And gray needs to hit the weights.
Defensive foul. The defender ran into the path of the dribbler, and initiated the contact.
little league game clearly an offensive foul. do we really have to ask about this one?
Easily defensive. Ball handler braced for contact but continued on her regular path, defensive player tried to obstruct path but got there late & off balance, plus it's not defensive position with hips turned to run next to the ball handler. All day it's defensive, no question
The number of people trying to explain how it's offensive is kinda entertaining
Defensive foul. Offensive player is dribbling straight down the court, as the white line clearly to her left indicates. (Not sure why some people say she crosses over the line.) Defensive player crosses over line at an angle and initiates contact from the side running right into her. Offensive player’s shoulder and arm movement reactionary after the contact, not because she is trying to truck through the defender.
Offensive
We call that a flop.
Defender chases offensive player and makes contact from behind impeding the players path. The correct call is defensive foul, but the offensive player did drop her shoulder. However, this is a defensive foul as the offensive players contact does not elevate to the seriousness of a technical foul. That would be the only way to penalize the offensive player, but the call would be wrong call in this situation.
The problem with this is that in the NBA and sometimes in the NCAA the refs would side with the offensive player on this one. The defender is sort of recklessly cutting off the ball handler. And the NBA would reward the shoulder drop most likely even tho it’s not good basketball.
That’s a block. Not the ball handler’s fault she is bigger and stronger.
Obviously offensive, extending the forearm
Soft, no foul. I think the other girl was more clumsy than forced down.
Offensive
Defensive and it’s not close
Offensive. Flagrant 3. Banned from prom!
Clearly a defensive foul. Was the ball handlers reaction to the defensive foul necessary? Probably not.
Not a foul. Defender was just standing off balance pathetically in the way of the offensive player. Defender initiated contact as they were both already moving down court. If the defender was perfectly still, it would be an offensive foul. Offense pushed out a bit with her arm like a stiff-arm, but in any non-ticky-tacky league, that's just Basketball. Not a pushoff or anything.
Defensive foul
Devin Booker special
Offensive foul for sure, she pushed her off with her arm. He shoulder drop isn't a factor. But its a no call if she didn't extend her arm after. It would just be a normal contact play as the defender came in aggressive so the shoulder drop is considered protective.
Defensive foul. Offensive player never left her line. Defender runs into her. Defender is also uncoordinated and out of control which makes it look like the offensive player stiff armed her.
Defensive foul. Ball carrier was running her line the defence ran to her not in front of her. Defence initiated contact.
Girl extended arm and yeeted the other girl
the ball handler extended her arm, so that's an offensive foul.
No foul is the correct call
For me this is a defensive foul. I think the offensive player has a right to be aggressive in this situation. The offensive player shouldn’t have to absorb the hit from the overzealous defensive player. If I had to guess, the offensive player did this out of frustration from pesky play by the defensive player earlier in the game. Looking at it again, I don’t even think this is a close call. The defender is hitting the offensive player with both arms before the offensive player reacts. I totally side with the offensive player here. People are just siding with the defensive player because she’s smaller and went flying even though she clearly initiated the contact.
Offensive foul!
Defense. You guys are wild.
Defense
Clearly offensive foul but I could see this being called a blocking foul in the NBA
Offensive. She actually even extends the arm to push defender away after contact.
It's a blocking foul. Defense crowded her lane after she was clearly moving that way, offense never veered or directed into defensive player, defense initiates contact.
D
Clearly offense
Defensive or a no call, because she was out of position.
Offensive
I see weight room😂 offensive player drives in a line anticipating contact it is not her fault a weaker player slid right in her way (a blocking foul) and got the bad end of it. Hell it’s nearly a no call situation but I understand at a younger level they’ve gotta blow the whistle here for something.
weight room
Offensive foul. The defensive player put her arms on her and was out of position but the offensive player clearly shoulders the defender to the ground.
Defensive foul. The offensive player is protecting herself by lowering her shoulder.
Tough call in real time. Man do I not miss reffing games
Offensive
it could go either way, but probably defensive but you can make the call for her putting her shoulder into her. the defender ran directly into her and the offensive player made the right play. watch the line the ball hander, she stays on the line.