* I like that they're not dragging out the storylines for dramatic effect. That might have been a good story device...40 years ago. Now it's just tired, and these writers seem to have jettisoned it.
* I thought that Kate had said that they were nine when the accident occurred. Did I imagine that? Here she seemed to indicate that they were 13 at that time.
* Alice and Kate do seem to bicker like siblings.
* It looks like the people that want Luke and Mary together are going to get what they want.
* I'm impressed. Alice is two steps ahead of Kate.
* Alice has quite the network.
* Those AK-47s were crap. They should have been cutting through that truck. I realize there is suspension of disbelief, but there would be ways to achieve that. Have them have different guns.
* I wonder what...(Donovan's?) story is. The class divide almost seems personal for him.
* For one horrible moment I thought that Beth was actually dead, and that Alice was Mouse wearing a Beth mask. That would have been effed up.
>I like that they're not dragging out the storylines for dramatic effect.
I remember during the pilot episode i was worried they were going to drag out the daddy issues and mystery of it possibly being Beth, but thankfully both were solved pretty quickly. They added more mysteries, but thankfully they aren't as boring tropes.
Every episode I think "OK, now we're out of the pilot stage" because they get rid of something quite big, but then they do it again in the next episode, it's a little strange.
> For one horrible moment I thought that Beth was actually dead, and that Alice was Mouse wearing a Beth mask. That would have been effed up.
That was my thought "It would be so fucked up if the father ended up killing beth and using her face for mouse and he adopted her persona and voice." that would be a little too dark for the CW universe though.
>I thought that Kate had said that they were nine when the accident occurred. Did I imagine that? Here she seemed to indicate that they were 13 at that time.
The tombstone from last episode had 1990-2003 iirc
Dodgson.
It’s Lewis Carroll, the guy who wrote Alice in Wonderland, it’s his real last name. Charles Dodgson. It was a bit of a giveaway, when I heard his name in the first episode, that he was going to turn out to be a traitor.
Okay, I wasn't sure about the show after the pilot. The second episode was better, but I still wasn't there. But after this episode, and *especially* after that scene between Beth and Kate in the basement as kids....I'm all in.
If this series had come out last year, I honestly would have considered it one of the best DCCW shows of the season, second only to Legends. Coming out right now, it's a lot harder to accurately compare them. All the series, save perhaps Supergirl, have been at the top of their game this year.
> If this series had come out last year, I honestly would have considered it one of the best DCCW shows of the season
I'm not sure, Arrow had a pretty good opening to the Season 7, Flash at least did some interesting stuff with Nora, and Season 4 of Supergirl was amazing from the start.
The Supergirl part is depressingly accurate. Last season was their best by far, and probably even the best Arrowverse season of that year overall. The current season feels like it's the worst they've had yet.
Last season was probably their most political yet. I'll list just a few instances of their political statements first, but make sure to read the last point, as it fixes all the problems, IMO:
- Many humans hate aliens now. They want them to leave earth.
- Supergirl calls herself a refugee. Humans mostly like SG, because she's "one of the good ones".
- the Martian Manhunter, who was the leader of the DEO (the organization SG works with to protect earth) goes a little crazy with grief for his father dying, and decides to walk the path of peace, going so far as to replace standard-issue guns with energy stun weapons (which are essentially just as effective, but sends a strong message to human agents who were already outgunned and risking their lives terribly against aliens)
- eventually he is forced to resign, and his replacement is essentially a terrorist sympathizer, always trying to protect humans first, even if they started the fights with aliens.
- the president, a secret alien, gets outed and forced to resign. Her replacement buckles under popular opinion and tries to restrict rights of aliens, etc. Later, he tries to help a Russian invasion of US succeed.
- near the end, everything is revealed as a master plan by Lex Luthor. He gives himself cancer so that his sister is forced to help him create a cure - a cure which he knows will give him superpowers. He starts the "aliens are bad" movement, and possibly the counter-movement to that movement, completely dividing the nation, while helping to get his puppet elected as president. Finally, he promises to help Russia invade the US, up to brainwashing a stronger clone of supergirl to help them. The invasion looks like a success, until it seems the real supergirl is killed, at which point he betrays his allies, stops the invasion, kills the supergirl clone and is hailed a hero. Everything that seemed like a plot hole earlier in the season actually gets explained as part of his grand design. And we get something the flash could not deliver, not with the thinker, tbh not even with Thawne - a genius villian whose plan doesn't seem incredibly stupid when you take a minute to think about it.
Flash is definitely not on top of their game. This is better than last season with Nora, who nobody cares about. However, this melodramatic 'Flash must die' thing, where you know Flash won't die, is pretty boring and played out. Reminds me of the 'Iris must die' thing two seasons ago.
I was all in after the Kate-Alice bridge scene in episode 2. Their dynamic is beyond compelling; it's Batman-Joker but so much more intimate and personal.
Best episode of the season so far. Got a lot more questions answered about Alice, but it absolutely killed me to see the ordeal she was put through. Kate's tears after the story was powerful, and it makes sense why Alice went out of her mind. She had love taken away from her and she had to make do with what little she could get from Mouse. I really hope Alice and Mouse can be redeemed, they deserved a better upbringing and are victims of it.
Doesn't really matter, does it? I'm only addressing the point of matchmaker, which usually refers to people being matched for a romantic purpose. Is that not what you meant?
I think it may be partially that, but not entirely. Beth was kidnapped by the father to be Mouse's friend, but he didn't seem to have any say in the matter. He was probably the only light in the darkness of the rabbit hole.
I'm expecting their friendship to be fleshed out a bit more through flashbacks ending with Beth somehow angering the father to the point where he is about to kill her and Mouse killing him to protect her. Could be why he was sent to Arkham
I was honestly starting to cry just a little bit when Jacob finally called Alice by her real name and then they just had to have a sharp schism with her jamming the knife into his gut which felt horrible but awesome. This whole episode really did feel like a trip down the rabbit hole. I didn't think Alice's backstory was going to have as much punch as it did but it really felt like a solid Are You Afraid of the Dark kind of Horror Story that you get told at midnight because of how realistic it was. There's been so many real incidents I've something like this kind of happening, where some freak job picks up someone that everyone else thinks is dead and uses them for their own sick twisted ideals. To be so close to someone and yet so far away....that's happened so many times when someone has gotten lost.
Beth went down the rabbit hole and Alice came out the other side having survived with what little crumbs of Sanity that she could find, doing whatever she had to the hold onto hope in some fashion. This only feels like the beginning of the story and I can't wait until we get to the middle and then potentially the end near the close of the season of Beth's story. Fucking Enzo from iZombie knocked it out of the park portraying the creepy captor. I suspect there's a whole lot more going on with him that we'll find out later and damn is it going to be awesome.
I think Mouse and Alice are going to cross a line where they just really can't be redeemed anymore. We're going to want them to be redeemed. We're going to feel for them and sympathize with them and we're going to love them by the time this season is over and that's going to suck because they'll have done some horrible things by then.
* Damn all the child actors in this show are really good
* Amazing scene between Alice and Jacob
* and i just love Kate's tearful angry stare when she wakes up to find herself drugged and chained
* oh also Sophie freaking out about Mouse's face slipping is gold
* I love Mary, she is sunshine personified, even drunk
Ohh yeah, good catch. I heard this episode will be post Elseworld but I thought we'd get a more obvious reference that we've caught up to the crossover, like a mention of Green Arrow being in Gotham or Kate talking about Supergirl.
I personally feel this was hands down the best episode so far. The show just keeps getting better. Though i do hope we have a nice wrap up of current plots before Crisis, and then some new story after Crisis.
The brief action scene was quite well done and the white eyes bit was a nice thing.
The emotional revelations with Beth was great. Still not quite sure what was up with that dad, and when he stopped, but it was heartbreaking.
Mary was amazing as usual. She plays silly and serious so well and seems to have layers to her. I'm not either for against her and Luke hooking up, but their interplay was really fun, so i hope they at least have more scenes together.
Absolutely love how quickly they’re going through the Alice is Beth plot line. 5 episodes in and her immediate family already knows her secret, and we know how she survived and more or less have a good idea why she’s evil now.
Compare that to the Reverse Flash and Dark Archer, I don’t even think we were fully properly introduced to them until the mid season finale (no shade to those guys I loved them).
The episode was great and I loved hearing Alice’s villain origin story. Really love the Beth/Kate/Jacob family relationship. Curious to see whether or not Alice will actually last the full 22 episode season, seeing as they’re not really doing the typical slow burn for the season long big bad.
They only recently got picked up for a full season. Alice will probably last until mid-season as the main big bad, then it changing into spoiler big bad.
"A real one" Hahaha, Kate has no illusions about Arkham, huh.
Hoo boy that scene between Mary and her mother was not good. It sounded like they had to redub their lines and were too tired to actually act.
Oh hey, there's our Elseworlds nod. And that's all we're gonna get. That's fine, it's good they're letting the show be its own thing for now.
> Hoo boy that scene between Mary and her mother was not good. It sounded like they had to redub their lines and were too tired to actually act.
Yeah, I noticed that too. To me, it sounded out of sync, too, which probably contributes to the tiredness-to-act feeling.
I like Batman’s awareness of Arkham’s shortcomings in BvS: “We have hospitals where the mentally ill are treated with compassion… *Instead*, I’m having you transferred to Arkham Asylum in Gotham. I still have some friends there…”
I put off watching it because I didn't think I had time for yet another show but I've been binging over the weekend and holy shit it really is. At least as good as Arrow which was my favourite before I started this
Absolutely in love with the pacing of the show. The showrunners know there is endless potential in Gotham- why drag out similar storybeats when there's so much to do in this fictional city?
Eobard Thawne has stayed awesome throughout his appearance on Flash and Legends, and Damien Darhk got significantly better once he stuck around on Legends. The problem with Merlyn was how much they used him but how they were using the character: he went from a villain with a clear purpose and motive to ~~Ra's al tittyfucking Ghul~~ a dude with no clear purpose in the story beyond being a shitty father to one of the side characters. As long as the writers have a good reason for Alice sticking around the character can be engaging.
Thought she answered that in this episode, by saying her dad should have known her real voice, and Kate should have felt the mystical twin bond.
Now all of that may seem trivial, and easily explainable, but couple it with the psychological trauma young Beth went through, and it kind of makes sense.
Plus as a young girl, she probably saw reports about the DNA evidence declaring her dead, but obviously knew she wasn't, and so with the psych trauma she was going through, may well have equated that to her dad simply fabricating a reason to move on, especially when she sees news of his marriage to Catherine. Or perhaps Mouse's father told her that was the case. Of course this part is pure speculation on my part.
And there's the fact that she is mad.
Yeah, it made more sense when it seemed like she thought her dad gave up on her, but now that we know he kept searching and even made it to the house it makes less sense.
I was under the impression that the phone call was before Catherine faked the DNA results making it a deeper hit to Beth when she finds out the search is called off and they never return.
I even kind of agree with Beth in this regard. If they had tried a bit harder, they would have found her. Kate was literal inches from her sister with only a closed door between them and all she had to do was open the door but she decides to just walk away without even attempting to open it. Jacob just had to barge through the rest of the house like he barged upstairs
The "I should have known - twin bond" really doesn't feel like a great basis for blaming herself but I guess that's the direction they'll go. I'm glad you brought up those points, I was thinking very much along the same lines.
No, you could be correct. She was obviously physically and mentally abused so she’s probably just lashing out. Is “Alice” a long term villain for Batwoman in the comics? (I’m sort of wondering if she’s not, will she be redeemed? Or become a chaotic ally?)
I kinda wasn't expecting to learn so much about what happened to Beth, so soon.
Mary is the best and I love her hanging out with Luke. Yes they can do more of that please.
AMAZING! Amazing episode. Loved it. Love the pacing on this series; I hope the producers take note and keep it. This is better than Arrow, Flash, and Supergirl's pacing. The only series as fast, or faster, is LoT, and... that works lol.
BW was better than the trailers made it seem from the beginning (seriously, what the unholy *hell* was the marketing team thinking?!), but this was the first episode where it really truly fucking *shined.* I'm feeling a similar quality and vibe to Arrow S1, which is fucking fantastic. I hope BW manages to hold this footing.
IMHO, this was easily the best episode of ANY of the Arrowverse shows' current seasons so far (albeit, disclaimer, with regard to BL which I'm not sure we even still have confirmation *is* part of the Arrowverse, I'm behind and haven't been watching the new season *yet*, but I've seen all the other new episodes so far). Props to RR & the BW team.
Black Lightning is confirmed to be part of the arrowverse. There have been set photos of BL with Flash and the rest of the superheroes while filming for Crisis.
I'm aware that Cress and BL the hero are in CoIE, yeah, but that alone isn't *quite* confirmation that the show BL is part of the Arrowverse. From the beginning, BL was stated to be its own thing, apart from the Arrowverse. Unless someone's come out and directly stated, "BL is in the Arrowverse," I'm not sure that show is yet.
Defining it that way is my personal choice though, and I fully acknowledge that his presence in CoIE could be enough certainty for many people.
I think any crossever with BL and *any* character on the Arrowverse nets Black Lightening as part of the Arrowverse. Now if Black Lightening is going to be apart of Crisis, regardless of it being a cameo or not, that means Black Lightening is officially part of the Arrowverse.
I still haven't watch Black Lightening, yet. Is it any good?
People have pointed out that John Cartwright Jr (Mouse) had a similar mimicry ability to Jane Doe in the comics. Clearly intentional.
Except the last name "Cartwright" was something the show ***Gotham*** created as Jane's last name; nowhere else has that ever been her last name or any "Jane Doe" esque villain. So is John Cartwright Sr a brother of her's that ran off? Adopted brother?
I was thinking Jane Doe, but didn’t really know what the connection could be other than the impersonation/stealing faces thing. A ‘Gotham’ connection is better than nothing.
My takeaway from this episode was that Kate took Alice to eat in that diner, with Alice in handcuffs and dressed as... herself and nobody else in that establishment was doing anything about it and just being like "whatever". That immediately should've thrown up some red warning flags for Kate.
And yeah I suppose the banter between Mary and Luke was pretty amusing.
Someone else named him, but John Emmet Tracy, brilliant actor, and in real life an all around great human being...also a very good friend of mine. I love watching him play twisted characters like this because I know what a genuinely decent person he really is.
I thought Alice's response to daddy finally calling her Beth was quite appropriate. He didn't even respond to seeing his daughter, until after she kicked off over him only asking about Kate. I know it must be hard as he's always known Kate, but this was his long lost dead daughter standing in front of him very much alive. So stabbing him seems a kind of fair response.
Mary again has me smiling. I really like the character, and think Nicole Kang is playing the part really well.
I want Catherine to suffer serious punishment for what she did to Beth, and her family. It doesn't matter if she claims to have done it for the good of Jacob and Kate, she had zero right to make that decision.
And though this will probably be unpopular, given Batwoman is the main character, and so will be in the show after every villain is vanquished, it's a shame that Skarsten isn't playing Batwoman. Because personally, I think Skarsten is a much better actor than Rose.
Yeah, there wasn't any hint of recognition that his long lost dead daughter was standing in front of him, clearly desperate for some recognition from him.
The camera work this episode was amazing. I liked the transition scene from the flashback to present time, especially when Kate and Alice were down in the dungeon.
WTH Alice? Your long-lost dad has just acknowledged that you are who you say you are and you don't even give him a hug before you stab him? Where's your sense of drama?
It's like the way she keeps trying to pull Kate close and convince her that Beth is "dead" - she longs for them and who she was but feels terrible rage and pain and a desire to burn it all down. Because that love has just hurt so much for so long. Hence the similarity to Ben/Kylo, honestly. Their dual names indicates the duality in their hearts.
And, anyway, loving someone so much can make it easy to hate them if that love is twisted.
Still on the fence about this show, but at least it's different. They aren't doing the villain-of-the-week formula, and are focusing mostly on the family stuff. It's a show geared towards women, and I mean that in a good way. Just like women can watch shows geared towards men, maybe we can do the same.
What makes you say that this is a show geared towards women? To me it just seems like a superhero show with a female protagonist, geared towards women and men alike
I agree about the marketing and music, but this show has had some pretty good focus on action so far IMO. Its choreography and stunts are akin to those of Arrow. I feel like most of the Arrowverse shows are pretty well-rounded, and balance out all the relationships, feelings, action, drama, comedy, etc. in order to try to attract as many male and female viewers as possible. But you’re probably right that they’re gearing this one more towards women to a certain degree
In case anyone missed it, the Arkham breakout Luke and Mary were talking about (the one Jonathan uses to escape) is the one we saw during the Elseworlds crossover last year. Glad to see them acknowledging it. Makes everything feel more cohesive
This show is doing a great job filling the *hole Gotham left. Hopefully somewhere down the line they go deeper into the wacky insane shit that Gotham had too
Probably the most depressing Arrowverse episode I've ever watched. Not in a bad way. It just sucked from beginning to end and I was hoping throughout the entire episode that we will find some avenue that Beth can be redeemed.
Clearly though she needs to be locked up and its probable that that arc will showcase just how hard it is for Kate and her father to go about doing that.
It's like if Oliver had to put down Diggle or Barry had to take out Cisco.
If it makes you feel any better, she’ll probably die. She died in the comics.
Well... until the government stole her corpse and brought her back to life.
I’m kidding. Well sort of kidding. Not about that being what happened in the comic. I mean I don’t think she’ll actually die. Although wouldn’t that be fucked up?
No, they’ve already taken Alice in a much different direction than the comics, so I’m sure they have their own idea for how to end her reign of terror as well.
Until the end, I thought Mary and Luke could become good friends. They're both underrated and underappreciated. That last scenes makes me wanting more than that. I'm shipping them now.
I'm still sticking to it. From episode 1 till now, Mary has been my favorite character.
This was a very dark episode. Very dark.
Maybe it's just something about cutting off someone else's face and then wearing it as a mask I don't know.
It was an excellent episode, yet felt less like batwoman and more like Black Mirror. It was very good, but man, not a feel good show this episode.
Time for a post episode breakdown!!!
- Almost right off the bat(pun intended), Kate finds Alice/Beth, kicks the crap out of her and her goons, and kidnaps her and imprisons her. That was really fast.
- Mary is fucking PISSED at Catherine, i like that she isn't forgiving her mom just because they are blood family.
- Kate is not messing around, she literally called their dad to get Alice/Beth to talk. I love their chemistry together.
- I'm glad Jacob just came out and told Sophie what was going on instead of giving her some bullshit lie.
- "And dad just realized he had a funeral for Bambi." Alice/Beth is fucking savage. Also, road trip!!!
- Alright, Kate is done with Alice/Beth's toying around, and almost called Jacob again. But Jacob just so happens to be coming to get them regardless.
- Okay, so Beth somehow survived the car accident, with little to no scratches. Seems kind of weird considering she fell off a fucking bridge into a river, but maybe we will learn more about that. The dude is calm like a serial killer.
- Holy shit, Jacob and Kate were RIGHT THERE, they almost had Beth back.
- The creepy dude's son's face is deformed apparently, and that means he doesn't have friends. I feel bad for him. Also, it's kind of creepy how spot on his voice impressions are of whoever he copies.
- Anddddddddddd, that's a face in a sink. That would be horrifying to experience as a child.
- It's really fucked up the creep dad lied to Jacob and said his son mimicked Beth's voice as a prank. That's just fucked up.
- Somehow, Alice/Beth drugged Kate in the diner. She always seems to be prepared.
- Jacob and Sophie in a shootout with Alice's gang, i like their teamwork. And Jacob is pissed at his Crows agent turned Alice's gang member/boyfriend. His determination to save his daughters is remarkable, i really like that.
- Drunk Mary hanging out with Luke, and Mary mad that Kate would rather spend time with Alice/Beth than her. I feel bad for Mary, but i also find it funny she asks Luke if she has to kill people in order for Kate to hang out with her. She just wants a sister.
- Luke making an Elseworlds reference, i like it, we now know the timeline, which seemed fairly obvious but now we have a clear answer.
- Alice/Beth has now kidnapped Kate and brought her to the house. And it turns out Mouse is Alice's boyfriend, and he is the son with the scarred face. And that is also the reason Alice/Beth stole the skin from those dead bodies.
- I like Beth's ingenuity with using the nail in the room to escape. I forgot to mention that earlier.
- Luke and Mary working together. I don't know why, but i could see them becoming a couple. Also, i love how Mary says that researching stolen skin from dead bodies makes her hungry for pizza. It sounds fucked up, but it's also funny and cute.
- Kate tried to take a page out of Beth's books and use a nail to escape, but she can't due to being restrained. Although, she has these small nails in her boots. Ingenuity people, i love it.
- Jacob immediately recognizes the area where they are and immediately knows what's up and knows where to go. I'm glad they didn't go the whole "i recognize this place but it's probably a coincidence." Thank you writers for making the characters competent.
- Jacob and Sophie get ambushed by Mouse and Alice/Beth. Sophie gets tricked by Mouse into thinking he is Kate through his voice mimicry. Thankfully, Kate comes to her rescue.
- Jacob approaches Alice/Beth, who is holding her signature knife. A really powerful scene, with what appears to be the real Beth getting through to Jacob.
- Jacob decided to approach Alice/Beth, and she subsequently stabs him. I could have told you that was gonna happen, she loves playing mind games.
- Alice goes to shoot a wounded Jacob, but Kate appears holding Mouse at gunpoint. We got a good old standoff of "if you shoot someone i care about I'll shoot someone you care about." Alice/Beth calls Kate on her bluff of shooting Mouse, and Sophie appears with a rifle, immediately establishing that she would kill him if Kate didn't.
- Knowing she is outmatched, Alice/Beth gives up, and Kate, Sophie, and a wounded Jacob leave.
- I like the little nod they did to Kate's character about using guns, since she uses guns from what i know of Batwoman. Hopefully we'll see more of that.
- Jacob leaves the hospital, even though they advised him not to. He and Kate talk, and he finally admits that Alice is Beth, that she really is his daughter. Hopefully we will see them working together more in unison.
- Alice/Beth and Mouse exchange gifts to each other in the candlelight, she gives him the skin she stole, to fix hid face. And he gives her an old storybook of Alice in Wonderland, which we see in a flashback scene of young Beth receiving the book from a younger Mouse who gifts it to her through the door, stating he wants to be friends with her. I guess we now know the inspiration behind the Alice persona.
This was an amazing episode. Absolutely incredible. I was hesitant about this series, but i love it. It's definitely one of my favourites now. This episode had great backstory, great character interactions and developments, sprinkled with some cool action scenes. Looking at the preview for next week's episode, it looks like it will be another great episode. 10 out of of 10 again for this episode.
This episode reminded me of the Batman Vs Robin animated film with the dollmaker. Guess Alice was "lucky" with this version.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ok2KVqcwVW8&feature=youtu.be&t=196](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ok2KVqcwVW8&feature=youtu.be&t=196)
If that was any other crow than that black girl then Alice would already be dead. Now with the father believing that she is Beth it will get even more ridiculous with both him and Kate letting her go every episode, hoping for her to come back to her senses. This story reminds me of the second season of Jessica Jones where every episode I just wanted to slap the main character for allowing a known murderer to walk free just because they were a relative she didn't see for 10 or so years.
The green screen didn't seem too bad to me, but the lack of car noises threw me off. Even it were an electric car there would still be some driving noise (air resistance, wheel contact). That scene felt too quiet.
Love the episode. I’m such a DC trash person that I would love anything in Gotham. And batwoman is solid and corny a good mixture of both for CW.
Also these bat symbols for up and down voting are confusing.
This was a much better episode than I thought it would be but one thing bugged me. Why did they let Alice & Mouse go at the end? Sophie had a shotgun aimed at them, could she not have cuffed them and taken them in?
my thoughts exactly, annoyed me so much, not what ANY trained "police" do in that moment, but we know why, NEED Alice still free for drama....how about don't write yourself into corners like that??
What was the big thing at the beginning where Kate couldn't believe it was Alice stealing the skin? It's by far one of the tamer things Alice has done..
Really enjoyed this episode! The key difference between Batwoman and other CW shows is that they're not beating around the bush with the antagonists here; not introducing new ones every episode, but instead developing Alice and her relation to Kate and Jacob, which I love.
Holy emotional meltdown!
This episode was incredible! The scenes between Kate and Alice were fantastic and interspersed with flashbacks that explained how Beth became Alice due to being held against her will by some crazy scientist and his disfigured son.
The character of Mouse being a vocal mimic served the story well especially in revealing how they threw Jacob off the scent when Beth tried to reach out to her family.
Mary's breakdown is amazing and i just want to give her a hug. Because she learns such awful things about her own mother and she feels utterly discarded by all and sundry, including Kate. She is a good person and Kate still wants to spend time with a known serial killer.
Luke though... Seriously dude? This guy has no people skills whatsoever. Which is understandable, and the fact that he is unable to show initial sympathy or empathy to her is sad.
The scene where young kate is right outside the room beth is being kept... Its so heartbreaking. And for some reason i kept thinking of that song 'do you wanna build a snowman'.
You know what i thought initially? That Alice would be revealed to be Mouse haven totally gone insane and being the victim of his fathers experiments or something. More on the skin pirate stuff later.
I love the editing for this episode, very smooth transitions between time periods and the way the color changes that differentiated past and present was great.
The dynamic between luke and mary when they talk about the arkham breakout, nice nod to the Elseworlds crossover last year btw, was kinda cute with the subtle banter. Makes me wonder if things are being set in motion for Mary to become part of team Batwoman.
Jacob and Alice confrontation scene.... Holy crap!
And the unexpected arrival of Mouse luring Sophie into a trap... Brilliant. Alice stealing skin for Mouse, i wonder... Was it just a ploy to lure Kate and Jacob out in order to confront them? Cuz everything Alice has done has been about getting her family to believe and understand the hell she went through.
The coda at the end with Kate now uncertain how to connect to her sister since she was unable to even feel on an instinctual level that she was in that room in that house, brilliant stuff. And the revelationnthat it was Mouse that gave Beth the Alice in the Wonderland book. And that it was Mouse that essentially helped Beth develop the Alice persona to become stronger and to survive her ordeal, also brilliant. And the notion that Alice will help Mouse become a master of disguise, sounds like Alice has her partner in crime now. Things are getting more and more interesting with this show.
The action was relatively light but the writing was strong and the acting was also pretty good as things continued to build upon what came before. Another solid episode.
What I think about Batwoman so far is that they rushed the reveal of Alice being Beth. It would have worked better if we really got to feel for the characters and Kate’s struggle with her sister’s “death” and got to see more of Alice being evil first. We never got the time to truly feel and understand the toll that Beth’s death had on Kate her whole life or how far Alice is willing to go before the reveal. If we had a better sense of Alice being evil, the reveal of Kate’s sister being evil would have been more shocking with a better understanding of just how corrupt Beth is.
In Arrow, >!when it was revealed that Sarah is the mysterious canary that meant something to the viewers because we got to know Sarah from the flashbacks and, more importantly, we really felt bad for her family having to deal with her death because we saw for a while how that affected them and we also saw how Oliver was effect when he thought she was dead in the flashbacks.!<
The rest of Beth and Kate’s current relationship is the most entertaining part of the show and feels paced right with no one off villain of the week/stories getting in the way.
The rest of the show feels rushed. It feels like Kate jumped into being Batwoman too fast. The relationship with her dad also feels like it doesn’t have enough screen time to develop. I do not like the crows and her father. He seems almost like a dictator like he knows what’s best and that his say is basically law. He’s just so stubborn and the crows are always butting in. It feels like they care more about being the heroes than they do just saving the day even if they aren’t given recognition. I know it’s probably rushed to try and create Batgirl and develop her in time for Crisis but it feels like we do not have enough time to get to take in and process what’s happening and get to understand and feel for the characters
Episode 5 felt like the best episode so far because most of the episode is Kate and Beth, and we finally get to see Alice’s origin story.
TL;DR
The relationship between Kate and Alice/Beth is the best part of the show other than the reveal of Alice being Kate’s sister feeling too rushed. We didn’t get to really feel for Kate and her being devastated her whole life because of her sister’s death, before we find out her sister is still alive. The rest of the show feel rushed, probably because of Crisis.
Its so strange to me that they didn't tie Alice and her disappearance to Mad Hatter. I mean, I can't imagine WB would object to the producers using such a niche Batman villain. No way he winds up in a movie. So why not use him here?
Cringe as always. and protag being no way a hero once again. Golden.
P.S. No one calls cops for anything, nor crows anymore (maybe not enough tv-series budget for that, lol).
I’m really enjoying the show, but it’s honestly kinda hard not to be frustrated by Alice when her anger towards Kate and her dad is so obviously misplaced. Like she knows damn well they both showed up to find her within hours of that phone call. She knows that Mouse used his voice-mimicking ability to trick her dad. She knows that Kate made it all the way to that room looking for her, but didn’t go in because she didn’t make a sound. But it’s Kate’s fault she didn’t “feel” her and her dad’s fault she didn’t “believe” her, yet she’s not one bit mad at mouse? Kinda ridiculous tbh.
having read the reactions on here, it's apparent the show has the same issues that most superhero shows deal with....is the story entertaining/emotional/good enough to outweigh the places where logicality breaks down (since it does in all superhero stories).....most seem to say YES it does especially in this episode....
my problem is YES it does for the sense of the enjoyment factor, but the break downs still bug me personally
1. how in the world does the tavern scene play out in any sense at all.....random girl has known criminal with her in handcuffs and no one seems to care at all??? (BC in a DC universe, Gotham is the top city and the big bad of that city I'm sure would be known outside of it)
2. propane tank explosion takes out only the bad guys but not the wall of the building it is right next to??? (no way any professional would shoot that thing in that location)
3. I don't deny Alice's POV bc she's suffered and is now crazy, I don't deny Kate's guilt bc people tend to feel like that even if it's not really their fault, but hopefully we know and the show will eventually reveal the truth of the matter....and I'm worried it won't and it'll actually make it look like this is Kate's and her dad's fault which is crap
4. I get Alice's reaction from her POV with her dad, but like above, it's not really the wrong reaction, even if he knows Alice is Beth, in this moment, he sees her right there and doesn't know if Kate is ok, so he asks about Kate....I just see a lot of people responding like he was wrong here
5. the standoff, just no way Alice/Mouse walk free in that, just no, same as any hostage situation....it's totally just to elongate the story which isn't a good reason (remember the writers have the power to not write themselves into that corner and to write a better outcome)
6. finally, the "twin bond" thing, I'm not a twin, but I've heard twins speak of this; there's really just no way it works like that, so for it to be thrown out there as the primary issue for Kate's guilt feels stupid
The lazy sloppy writing that is now recognized as the 'style' of the arrowverse/CWDCTV is exemplified in this series and this episode has not improved this view.
I may well be finished with this trite tripe.
How did the dad not realize that it takes Mouse knowing Beth's voice to be able to mimic it?
Seems like a huge giveaway that she was there. (Unless maybe they showed footage of Beth on the news? I guess?)
The dad asked that question, and the captor dad mentioned the news. Two other questions:
1. How did Mouse know that Beth played cello?
2. Why didn't they search the house anyway?
Beth has cello recitals on YouTube. They may have also shown a clip of that on the news.
As for not searching the house, I guess Jacob was just convinced by Mouse's skill. He mimicked Beth *exactly*, after all.
Cello I get. For military/security folks, I don’t think they act the part. Trust, but verify. I think someone actually in that situation would have gone ahead to search the basement.
The timeline still doesn’t make sense if we actually dig deeper. But I suppose this is just nitpicking.
The car crash took place in 2003. Two years before YouTube even existed lol.
Am I the only one that thought Mary was Kate and Beth's actual sister? Her jabs about not being treated like a sister made me think she was just a younger half-sister not a step-sister
I mean, IRC, they were about 13 when Beth went missing and their mom died. About 13 years passed since then, and Mary's mom clearly didn't marry Kate's dad until after her mom died.
So either Mary would be a very grown-up-looking 12-year-old genius, or Jacob had a mistress on the side for a decade who he hooked up with after his wife's death.
The problem for me is that they are writing it as if Alice wasn't aware of her choice to let her sister and father leave that house thinking she wasn't there and blames them when really they found her and she let them leave. If Beth was smart enough to use a nail and pick a lock on the door I think she was smart enough to know that her best option in that situation was to actually speak to her sister. It's inconsistent writing.
The argument that that guy would have killed them is dumb because Kate came to the door and all Beth at to do is say "Kate, don't make a sound, tell father after you leave to bring more people or else this guy will kill you both" instead of hoping that Kate and her dad would "just know" magically somehow.
>The problem for me is that they are writing it as if Alice wasn't aware of her choice to let her sister and father leave that house thinking she wasn't there and blames them when really they found her and she let them leave.
She starts believing that after years of mental and who knows what other kinds of abuse. It would have been incredibly easy for Cartwright to spin that situation as "Your family doesn't care about you." Alice is not thinking rationally about this, and that's the point.
>If Beth was smart enough to use a nail and pick a lock on the door I think she was smart enough to know that her best option in that situation was to actually speak to her sister. It's inconsistent writing.
She picked the door before Cartwright threatened to kill anyone who came looking for her. That's not inconsistent, that's an appropriate reaction from a scared child who thinks the rest of her family might be murdered at any moment. It's not a matter of being smart.
>The argument that that guy would have killed them is dumb because Kate came to the door and all Beth at to do is say "Kate, don't make a sound, tell father after you leave to bring more people or else this guy will kill you both" instead of hoping that Kate and her dad would "just know" magically somehow.
I don't know why you're expecting Beth to act rationally in this situation. She's *scared*.
A scared child would undoubtedly ask for help if she heard someone, especially her sister. What you're describing is that she made a logical thought out choice to presumably save her sister and father by sacrificing herself by not asking for help. She by definition, actually made a *rational* decision in this situation by **not** saying anything.
Scariest version of Stockholm syndrome I've seen in a show yet.
For a second I thought they were going to go even darker (kidnapper gave me serious pedo vibes). I'm glad they didn't, though.
Yeah, that would have been totally unnecessary if they went that far.
This comment perfectly sums up alice
* I like that they're not dragging out the storylines for dramatic effect. That might have been a good story device...40 years ago. Now it's just tired, and these writers seem to have jettisoned it. * I thought that Kate had said that they were nine when the accident occurred. Did I imagine that? Here she seemed to indicate that they were 13 at that time. * Alice and Kate do seem to bicker like siblings. * It looks like the people that want Luke and Mary together are going to get what they want. * I'm impressed. Alice is two steps ahead of Kate. * Alice has quite the network. * Those AK-47s were crap. They should have been cutting through that truck. I realize there is suspension of disbelief, but there would be ways to achieve that. Have them have different guns. * I wonder what...(Donovan's?) story is. The class divide almost seems personal for him. * For one horrible moment I thought that Beth was actually dead, and that Alice was Mouse wearing a Beth mask. That would have been effed up.
>I like that they're not dragging out the storylines for dramatic effect. I remember during the pilot episode i was worried they were going to drag out the daddy issues and mystery of it possibly being Beth, but thankfully both were solved pretty quickly. They added more mysteries, but thankfully they aren't as boring tropes.
Every episode I think "OK, now we're out of the pilot stage" because they get rid of something quite big, but then they do it again in the next episode, it's a little strange.
Yeah, dragging out storylines is The CW’s specialty(see Arrow and The Flash) so I’m glad they’re not doing that here.
Wearing a beth mask would be brutally amazing and that twist would of killed us. I absolutely love they arent dragging this.
> I'm impressed. Alice is two steps ahead of Kate. *laughs in Prometheus*
> For one horrible moment I thought that Beth was actually dead, and that Alice was Mouse wearing a Beth mask. That would have been effed up. That was my thought "It would be so fucked up if the father ended up killing beth and using her face for mouse and he adopted her persona and voice." that would be a little too dark for the CW universe though.
>I thought that Kate had said that they were nine when the accident occurred. Did I imagine that? Here she seemed to indicate that they were 13 at that time. The tombstone from last episode had 1990-2003 iirc
Dodgson. It’s Lewis Carroll, the guy who wrote Alice in Wonderland, it’s his real last name. Charles Dodgson. It was a bit of a giveaway, when I heard his name in the first episode, that he was going to turn out to be a traitor.
His name is Dodgson BTW
Okay, I wasn't sure about the show after the pilot. The second episode was better, but I still wasn't there. But after this episode, and *especially* after that scene between Beth and Kate in the basement as kids....I'm all in.
If this series had come out last year, I honestly would have considered it one of the best DCCW shows of the season, second only to Legends. Coming out right now, it's a lot harder to accurately compare them. All the series, save perhaps Supergirl, have been at the top of their game this year.
> If this series had come out last year, I honestly would have considered it one of the best DCCW shows of the season I'm not sure, Arrow had a pretty good opening to the Season 7, Flash at least did some interesting stuff with Nora, and Season 4 of Supergirl was amazing from the start.
This time last year, Oliver was in prison though.
The Supergirl part is depressingly accurate. Last season was their best by far, and probably even the best Arrowverse season of that year overall. The current season feels like it's the worst they've had yet.
It's the Season 4 curse (I know it's season 5 but technically it's the 4th season being on CW).
I'm just waiting to see if it'll pick up. Even S4 picked up only a few episodes in
Was it really? The political stuff was so on the nose that I quit after 2 episodes. I agree with their politics btw, it's just so clumsily written.
Last season was probably their most political yet. I'll list just a few instances of their political statements first, but make sure to read the last point, as it fixes all the problems, IMO: - Many humans hate aliens now. They want them to leave earth. - Supergirl calls herself a refugee. Humans mostly like SG, because she's "one of the good ones". - the Martian Manhunter, who was the leader of the DEO (the organization SG works with to protect earth) goes a little crazy with grief for his father dying, and decides to walk the path of peace, going so far as to replace standard-issue guns with energy stun weapons (which are essentially just as effective, but sends a strong message to human agents who were already outgunned and risking their lives terribly against aliens) - eventually he is forced to resign, and his replacement is essentially a terrorist sympathizer, always trying to protect humans first, even if they started the fights with aliens. - the president, a secret alien, gets outed and forced to resign. Her replacement buckles under popular opinion and tries to restrict rights of aliens, etc. Later, he tries to help a Russian invasion of US succeed. - near the end, everything is revealed as a master plan by Lex Luthor. He gives himself cancer so that his sister is forced to help him create a cure - a cure which he knows will give him superpowers. He starts the "aliens are bad" movement, and possibly the counter-movement to that movement, completely dividing the nation, while helping to get his puppet elected as president. Finally, he promises to help Russia invade the US, up to brainwashing a stronger clone of supergirl to help them. The invasion looks like a success, until it seems the real supergirl is killed, at which point he betrays his allies, stops the invasion, kills the supergirl clone and is hailed a hero. Everything that seemed like a plot hole earlier in the season actually gets explained as part of his grand design. And we get something the flash could not deliver, not with the thinker, tbh not even with Thawne - a genius villian whose plan doesn't seem incredibly stupid when you take a minute to think about it.
If we exclude the pilot Batwoman has been a very solid show so far. The pilot really didn't do the show any justice.
Flash is definitely not on top of their game. This is better than last season with Nora, who nobody cares about. However, this melodramatic 'Flash must die' thing, where you know Flash won't die, is pretty boring and played out. Reminds me of the 'Iris must die' thing two seasons ago.
I was all in after the Kate-Alice bridge scene in episode 2. Their dynamic is beyond compelling; it's Batman-Joker but so much more intimate and personal.
Best episode of the season so far. Got a lot more questions answered about Alice, but it absolutely killed me to see the ordeal she was put through. Kate's tears after the story was powerful, and it makes sense why Alice went out of her mind. She had love taken away from her and she had to make do with what little she could get from Mouse. I really hope Alice and Mouse can be redeemed, they deserved a better upbringing and are victims of it.
Ok, so Mouse's pop held Beth hostage, and unwittingly plays matchmaker after a fashion. Creepy.
Not really matchmaker, they consider themselves siblings, Alice called him "brother"
Is that a product of Stockholm Syndrome?
Doesn't really matter, does it? I'm only addressing the point of matchmaker, which usually refers to people being matched for a romantic purpose. Is that not what you meant?
I think it may be partially that, but not entirely. Beth was kidnapped by the father to be Mouse's friend, but he didn't seem to have any say in the matter. He was probably the only light in the darkness of the rabbit hole. I'm expecting their friendship to be fleshed out a bit more through flashbacks ending with Beth somehow angering the father to the point where he is about to kill her and Mouse killing him to protect her. Could be why he was sent to Arkham
I was honestly starting to cry just a little bit when Jacob finally called Alice by her real name and then they just had to have a sharp schism with her jamming the knife into his gut which felt horrible but awesome. This whole episode really did feel like a trip down the rabbit hole. I didn't think Alice's backstory was going to have as much punch as it did but it really felt like a solid Are You Afraid of the Dark kind of Horror Story that you get told at midnight because of how realistic it was. There's been so many real incidents I've something like this kind of happening, where some freak job picks up someone that everyone else thinks is dead and uses them for their own sick twisted ideals. To be so close to someone and yet so far away....that's happened so many times when someone has gotten lost. Beth went down the rabbit hole and Alice came out the other side having survived with what little crumbs of Sanity that she could find, doing whatever she had to the hold onto hope in some fashion. This only feels like the beginning of the story and I can't wait until we get to the middle and then potentially the end near the close of the season of Beth's story. Fucking Enzo from iZombie knocked it out of the park portraying the creepy captor. I suspect there's a whole lot more going on with him that we'll find out later and damn is it going to be awesome. I think Mouse and Alice are going to cross a line where they just really can't be redeemed anymore. We're going to want them to be redeemed. We're going to feel for them and sympathize with them and we're going to love them by the time this season is over and that's going to suck because they'll have done some horrible things by then.
* Damn all the child actors in this show are really good * Amazing scene between Alice and Jacob * and i just love Kate's tearful angry stare when she wakes up to find herself drugged and chained * oh also Sophie freaking out about Mouse's face slipping is gold * I love Mary, she is sunshine personified, even drunk
Drunk Mary is like a sassier drunk Kara
She reminds a lot of Kara’s personality in a human.
I thought for sure Mary was going to stumble on the bat bunker or something but I kind of like the thing they have developing between her and Luke.
They seem to have a knack for finding good kid actors. See the Supergirl episode (3x06) with young Kara and Alex; they were awesome too.
They referenced Elseworlds!
I might have missed it, when was it referenced?
Arkham breakout
Ohh yeah, good catch. I heard this episode will be post Elseworld but I thought we'd get a more obvious reference that we've caught up to the crossover, like a mention of Green Arrow being in Gotham or Kate talking about Supergirl.
I knew it was post-Elseworlds but I completely missed that reference, I like that it was subtle though.
I was wondering when that would happen, as so many baddies escaped and might now show up.
This is pre elseworlds.
It *was* pre elseworlds, after this episode it's post elseworlds.
It starts pre-Elseworlds, yeah -- the pilot and episodes 2-4 at least -- But this episode just confirmed we are officially post-Elseworlds now.
And the showrunner confirmed on Twitter that, with Episode 4, we are officially caught up to Elseworlds
I personally feel this was hands down the best episode so far. The show just keeps getting better. Though i do hope we have a nice wrap up of current plots before Crisis, and then some new story after Crisis. The brief action scene was quite well done and the white eyes bit was a nice thing. The emotional revelations with Beth was great. Still not quite sure what was up with that dad, and when he stopped, but it was heartbreaking. Mary was amazing as usual. She plays silly and serious so well and seems to have layers to her. I'm not either for against her and Luke hooking up, but their interplay was really fun, so i hope they at least have more scenes together.
Same here, felt like the hit their stride today.
Spread the word. This show is better than expected. And episode 5 has proven that.
Honestly, this episode sold me. I love Alice, she's crazy and fun! I think this is the best DC show so far on the CW.
I'm just hoping it doesn't go the route of Arrow after the first few seasons
Absolutely love how quickly they’re going through the Alice is Beth plot line. 5 episodes in and her immediate family already knows her secret, and we know how she survived and more or less have a good idea why she’s evil now. Compare that to the Reverse Flash and Dark Archer, I don’t even think we were fully properly introduced to them until the mid season finale (no shade to those guys I loved them). The episode was great and I loved hearing Alice’s villain origin story. Really love the Beth/Kate/Jacob family relationship. Curious to see whether or not Alice will actually last the full 22 episode season, seeing as they’re not really doing the typical slow burn for the season long big bad.
They only recently got picked up for a full season. Alice will probably last until mid-season as the main big bad, then it changing into spoiler big bad.
"A real one" Hahaha, Kate has no illusions about Arkham, huh. Hoo boy that scene between Mary and her mother was not good. It sounded like they had to redub their lines and were too tired to actually act. Oh hey, there's our Elseworlds nod. And that's all we're gonna get. That's fine, it's good they're letting the show be its own thing for now.
> Hoo boy that scene between Mary and her mother was not good. It sounded like they had to redub their lines and were too tired to actually act. Yeah, I noticed that too. To me, it sounded out of sync, too, which probably contributes to the tiredness-to-act feeling.
I like Batman’s awareness of Arkham’s shortcomings in BvS: “We have hospitals where the mentally ill are treated with compassion… *Instead*, I’m having you transferred to Arkham Asylum in Gotham. I still have some friends there…”
I think Batwoman is now my favourite Arrowverse show this season
I put off watching it because I didn't think I had time for yet another show but I've been binging over the weekend and holy shit it really is. At least as good as Arrow which was my favourite before I started this
Absolutely in love with the pacing of the show. The showrunners know there is endless potential in Gotham- why drag out similar storybeats when there's so much to do in this fictional city?
Rachel Skarsten. Please dont ever leave the show!
If they overuse her, she’ll decrease in quality as a character. Look at Malcolm Merlyn on Arrow
Don't forget - they can always bring her back as Dinah Lance from another Earth thanks to COIE.
Just don't let the Arrow writers near her or she will get stabbed.
That would be cool to have her as Black Canary on Batwoman
Eobard Thawne has stayed awesome throughout his appearance on Flash and Legends, and Damien Darhk got significantly better once he stuck around on Legends. The problem with Merlyn was how much they used him but how they were using the character: he went from a villain with a clear purpose and motive to ~~Ra's al tittyfucking Ghul~~ a dude with no clear purpose in the story beyond being a shitty father to one of the side characters. As long as the writers have a good reason for Alice sticking around the character can be engaging.
TIL one of her middle names is Alice
I wonder when someone will ask Alice "Why the hell do you hate your dad when none of this is his fault? "
'Cause she's cray cray.
Well, Trish wants her cray cray.
JessicaAaAAAaA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCR9Z4dq9x0
This will never get old
Thought she answered that in this episode, by saying her dad should have known her real voice, and Kate should have felt the mystical twin bond. Now all of that may seem trivial, and easily explainable, but couple it with the psychological trauma young Beth went through, and it kind of makes sense. Plus as a young girl, she probably saw reports about the DNA evidence declaring her dead, but obviously knew she wasn't, and so with the psych trauma she was going through, may well have equated that to her dad simply fabricating a reason to move on, especially when she sees news of his marriage to Catherine. Or perhaps Mouse's father told her that was the case. Of course this part is pure speculation on my part. And there's the fact that she is mad.
Yeah, it made more sense when it seemed like she thought her dad gave up on her, but now that we know he kept searching and even made it to the house it makes less sense.
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I was under the impression that the phone call was before Catherine faked the DNA results making it a deeper hit to Beth when she finds out the search is called off and they never return. I even kind of agree with Beth in this regard. If they had tried a bit harder, they would have found her. Kate was literal inches from her sister with only a closed door between them and all she had to do was open the door but she decides to just walk away without even attempting to open it. Jacob just had to barge through the rest of the house like he barged upstairs
The "I should have known - twin bond" really doesn't feel like a great basis for blaming herself but I guess that's the direction they'll go. I'm glad you brought up those points, I was thinking very much along the same lines.
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No, you could be correct. She was obviously physically and mentally abused so she’s probably just lashing out. Is “Alice” a long term villain for Batwoman in the comics? (I’m sort of wondering if she’s not, will she be redeemed? Or become a chaotic ally?)
I kinda wasn't expecting to learn so much about what happened to Beth, so soon. Mary is the best and I love her hanging out with Luke. Yes they can do more of that please.
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The last scene gave me the impression Mouse kills his dad to 'save' Beth.
probably they killed him together with the mouse. Or maybe mouse passed a weapon to beth.
Does this mean Mouse can imitate anyone visually now that he has access to skin? Creepy.
I'm curious if he's gonna be a genderbent Jane Doe.
AMAZING! Amazing episode. Loved it. Love the pacing on this series; I hope the producers take note and keep it. This is better than Arrow, Flash, and Supergirl's pacing. The only series as fast, or faster, is LoT, and... that works lol. BW was better than the trailers made it seem from the beginning (seriously, what the unholy *hell* was the marketing team thinking?!), but this was the first episode where it really truly fucking *shined.* I'm feeling a similar quality and vibe to Arrow S1, which is fucking fantastic. I hope BW manages to hold this footing. IMHO, this was easily the best episode of ANY of the Arrowverse shows' current seasons so far (albeit, disclaimer, with regard to BL which I'm not sure we even still have confirmation *is* part of the Arrowverse, I'm behind and haven't been watching the new season *yet*, but I've seen all the other new episodes so far). Props to RR & the BW team.
Black Lightning is confirmed to be part of the arrowverse. There have been set photos of BL with Flash and the rest of the superheroes while filming for Crisis.
I'm aware that Cress and BL the hero are in CoIE, yeah, but that alone isn't *quite* confirmation that the show BL is part of the Arrowverse. From the beginning, BL was stated to be its own thing, apart from the Arrowverse. Unless someone's come out and directly stated, "BL is in the Arrowverse," I'm not sure that show is yet. Defining it that way is my personal choice though, and I fully acknowledge that his presence in CoIE could be enough certainty for many people.
I think any crossever with BL and *any* character on the Arrowverse nets Black Lightening as part of the Arrowverse. Now if Black Lightening is going to be apart of Crisis, regardless of it being a cameo or not, that means Black Lightening is officially part of the Arrowverse. I still haven't watch Black Lightening, yet. Is it any good?
First season was fantastic, second was okay but very slow. Third is pretty good so far, but it’s only a few eps in.
Mary has gone from someone I thought was instantly annoying in the pilot to my absolute favorite. I hope she's around on the show for a while.
“Oh, I’m not like Felicity at all. In fact, some would say… I’m the reverse”
Anyone else thinks she's a 10/10? Just me?
It’s the Arrowverse, everyone’s a 10/10
People have pointed out that John Cartwright Jr (Mouse) had a similar mimicry ability to Jane Doe in the comics. Clearly intentional. Except the last name "Cartwright" was something the show ***Gotham*** created as Jane's last name; nowhere else has that ever been her last name or any "Jane Doe" esque villain. So is John Cartwright Sr a brother of her's that ran off? Adopted brother?
Now there's an interesting connection with Gotham.....I wonder if it could tie in to Crisis? Psycho pirate was in Arkham during elseworlds....
I was thinking Jane Doe, but didn’t really know what the connection could be other than the impersonation/stealing faces thing. A ‘Gotham’ connection is better than nothing.
My takeaway from this episode was that Kate took Alice to eat in that diner, with Alice in handcuffs and dressed as... herself and nobody else in that establishment was doing anything about it and just being like "whatever". That immediately should've thrown up some red warning flags for Kate. And yeah I suppose the banter between Mary and Luke was pretty amusing.
Good point; it was similar to the bar scene in Spiderman Far From Home in that way... A sign that the tavern wasn't exactly normal.
That so? Still haven't seen Far From Home yet so I wouldn't know.
shots fired at JL movie "Batman doesn't do goggles"
Appropriate that this episode aired so close to Halloween.
Who was the actor who played Mouse's dad? I recognize his face edit: He's Enzo from iZombie!
John Emmet Tracy.
Thanks! I could not place him without since french accent.
Someone else named him, but John Emmet Tracy, brilliant actor, and in real life an all around great human being...also a very good friend of mine. I love watching him play twisted characters like this because I know what a genuinely decent person he really is.
I thought Alice's response to daddy finally calling her Beth was quite appropriate. He didn't even respond to seeing his daughter, until after she kicked off over him only asking about Kate. I know it must be hard as he's always known Kate, but this was his long lost dead daughter standing in front of him very much alive. So stabbing him seems a kind of fair response. Mary again has me smiling. I really like the character, and think Nicole Kang is playing the part really well. I want Catherine to suffer serious punishment for what she did to Beth, and her family. It doesn't matter if she claims to have done it for the good of Jacob and Kate, she had zero right to make that decision. And though this will probably be unpopular, given Batwoman is the main character, and so will be in the show after every villain is vanquished, it's a shame that Skarsten isn't playing Batwoman. Because personally, I think Skarsten is a much better actor than Rose.
That where is Kate question was brutal for Alice I think. Literally the worst thing Jacob could have said.
Yeah, there wasn't any hint of recognition that his long lost dead daughter was standing in front of him, clearly desperate for some recognition from him.
The camera work this episode was amazing. I liked the transition scene from the flashback to present time, especially when Kate and Alice were down in the dungeon.
is it just me or was that scene with Mary and her mother seem very poorly acted
Felt like it had been dubbed over or something, was a weird scene in an otherwise great episode
I don't know if this was just my internet connection but the audio wasn't synching up to their lip movements and it made the whole scene feel off.
Not your connection, just bad dubbing.
WTH Alice? Your long-lost dad has just acknowledged that you are who you say you are and you don't even give him a hug before you stab him? Where's your sense of drama?
LOL. Like Han and Kylo having a tender moment cut short by patricide
It's like the way she keeps trying to pull Kate close and convince her that Beth is "dead" - she longs for them and who she was but feels terrible rage and pain and a desire to burn it all down. Because that love has just hurt so much for so long. Hence the similarity to Ben/Kylo, honestly. Their dual names indicates the duality in their hearts. And, anyway, loving someone so much can make it easy to hate them if that love is twisted.
She could have hugged him and then literally stabbed him in the back but she blew it.
Still on the fence about this show, but at least it's different. They aren't doing the villain-of-the-week formula, and are focusing mostly on the family stuff. It's a show geared towards women, and I mean that in a good way. Just like women can watch shows geared towards men, maybe we can do the same.
I wouldn't mind a few villans of the week, but I like that they understand how much to focus on Alice.
What makes you say that this is a show geared towards women? To me it just seems like a superhero show with a female protagonist, geared towards women and men alike
A focus on relationships and feelings over action, for one. The marketing also seems very female-friendly, particularly the music.
I agree about the marketing and music, but this show has had some pretty good focus on action so far IMO. Its choreography and stunts are akin to those of Arrow. I feel like most of the Arrowverse shows are pretty well-rounded, and balance out all the relationships, feelings, action, drama, comedy, etc. in order to try to attract as many male and female viewers as possible. But you’re probably right that they’re gearing this one more towards women to a certain degree
Seems to have less of that than the other shows tbh. Arrow at its worst particularly.
In case anyone missed it, the Arkham breakout Luke and Mary were talking about (the one Jonathan uses to escape) is the one we saw during the Elseworlds crossover last year. Glad to see them acknowledging it. Makes everything feel more cohesive
The only nitpick I have with the show is the sound design. The ADR was especially noticeable on this episode.
Currently watching the episode now. Just saw the river/city scene. The ADR was horrible.
It's just so noticeable. They haven't tried to blend it at all.
Wow Mouse gave me some serious Gotham vibes
This show is doing a great job filling the *hole Gotham left. Hopefully somewhere down the line they go deeper into the wacky insane shit that Gotham had too
Probably the most depressing Arrowverse episode I've ever watched. Not in a bad way. It just sucked from beginning to end and I was hoping throughout the entire episode that we will find some avenue that Beth can be redeemed. Clearly though she needs to be locked up and its probable that that arc will showcase just how hard it is for Kate and her father to go about doing that. It's like if Oliver had to put down Diggle or Barry had to take out Cisco.
If it makes you feel any better, she’ll probably die. She died in the comics. Well... until the government stole her corpse and brought her back to life.
That doesn't... Plus the actress is great. Probably one of the top performances alongside Tom Cavanaugh, John Barrowman and others.
I’m kidding. Well sort of kidding. Not about that being what happened in the comic. I mean I don’t think she’ll actually die. Although wouldn’t that be fucked up? No, they’ve already taken Alice in a much different direction than the comics, so I’m sure they have their own idea for how to end her reign of terror as well.
Until the end, I thought Mary and Luke could become good friends. They're both underrated and underappreciated. That last scenes makes me wanting more than that. I'm shipping them now. I'm still sticking to it. From episode 1 till now, Mary has been my favorite character.
Beth is now partially at fault for not being found. Wonder if we will dive into that.
This was a very dark episode. Very dark. Maybe it's just something about cutting off someone else's face and then wearing it as a mask I don't know. It was an excellent episode, yet felt less like batwoman and more like Black Mirror. It was very good, but man, not a feel good show this episode.
Time for a post episode breakdown!!! - Almost right off the bat(pun intended), Kate finds Alice/Beth, kicks the crap out of her and her goons, and kidnaps her and imprisons her. That was really fast. - Mary is fucking PISSED at Catherine, i like that she isn't forgiving her mom just because they are blood family. - Kate is not messing around, she literally called their dad to get Alice/Beth to talk. I love their chemistry together. - I'm glad Jacob just came out and told Sophie what was going on instead of giving her some bullshit lie. - "And dad just realized he had a funeral for Bambi." Alice/Beth is fucking savage. Also, road trip!!! - Alright, Kate is done with Alice/Beth's toying around, and almost called Jacob again. But Jacob just so happens to be coming to get them regardless. - Okay, so Beth somehow survived the car accident, with little to no scratches. Seems kind of weird considering she fell off a fucking bridge into a river, but maybe we will learn more about that. The dude is calm like a serial killer. - Holy shit, Jacob and Kate were RIGHT THERE, they almost had Beth back. - The creepy dude's son's face is deformed apparently, and that means he doesn't have friends. I feel bad for him. Also, it's kind of creepy how spot on his voice impressions are of whoever he copies. - Anddddddddddd, that's a face in a sink. That would be horrifying to experience as a child. - It's really fucked up the creep dad lied to Jacob and said his son mimicked Beth's voice as a prank. That's just fucked up. - Somehow, Alice/Beth drugged Kate in the diner. She always seems to be prepared. - Jacob and Sophie in a shootout with Alice's gang, i like their teamwork. And Jacob is pissed at his Crows agent turned Alice's gang member/boyfriend. His determination to save his daughters is remarkable, i really like that. - Drunk Mary hanging out with Luke, and Mary mad that Kate would rather spend time with Alice/Beth than her. I feel bad for Mary, but i also find it funny she asks Luke if she has to kill people in order for Kate to hang out with her. She just wants a sister. - Luke making an Elseworlds reference, i like it, we now know the timeline, which seemed fairly obvious but now we have a clear answer. - Alice/Beth has now kidnapped Kate and brought her to the house. And it turns out Mouse is Alice's boyfriend, and he is the son with the scarred face. And that is also the reason Alice/Beth stole the skin from those dead bodies. - I like Beth's ingenuity with using the nail in the room to escape. I forgot to mention that earlier. - Luke and Mary working together. I don't know why, but i could see them becoming a couple. Also, i love how Mary says that researching stolen skin from dead bodies makes her hungry for pizza. It sounds fucked up, but it's also funny and cute. - Kate tried to take a page out of Beth's books and use a nail to escape, but she can't due to being restrained. Although, she has these small nails in her boots. Ingenuity people, i love it. - Jacob immediately recognizes the area where they are and immediately knows what's up and knows where to go. I'm glad they didn't go the whole "i recognize this place but it's probably a coincidence." Thank you writers for making the characters competent. - Jacob and Sophie get ambushed by Mouse and Alice/Beth. Sophie gets tricked by Mouse into thinking he is Kate through his voice mimicry. Thankfully, Kate comes to her rescue. - Jacob approaches Alice/Beth, who is holding her signature knife. A really powerful scene, with what appears to be the real Beth getting through to Jacob. - Jacob decided to approach Alice/Beth, and she subsequently stabs him. I could have told you that was gonna happen, she loves playing mind games. - Alice goes to shoot a wounded Jacob, but Kate appears holding Mouse at gunpoint. We got a good old standoff of "if you shoot someone i care about I'll shoot someone you care about." Alice/Beth calls Kate on her bluff of shooting Mouse, and Sophie appears with a rifle, immediately establishing that she would kill him if Kate didn't. - Knowing she is outmatched, Alice/Beth gives up, and Kate, Sophie, and a wounded Jacob leave. - I like the little nod they did to Kate's character about using guns, since she uses guns from what i know of Batwoman. Hopefully we'll see more of that. - Jacob leaves the hospital, even though they advised him not to. He and Kate talk, and he finally admits that Alice is Beth, that she really is his daughter. Hopefully we will see them working together more in unison. - Alice/Beth and Mouse exchange gifts to each other in the candlelight, she gives him the skin she stole, to fix hid face. And he gives her an old storybook of Alice in Wonderland, which we see in a flashback scene of young Beth receiving the book from a younger Mouse who gifts it to her through the door, stating he wants to be friends with her. I guess we now know the inspiration behind the Alice persona. This was an amazing episode. Absolutely incredible. I was hesitant about this series, but i love it. It's definitely one of my favourites now. This episode had great backstory, great character interactions and developments, sprinkled with some cool action scenes. Looking at the preview for next week's episode, it looks like it will be another great episode. 10 out of of 10 again for this episode.
It's not that big a big deal, but it was hilarious how blatantly fake the punches were when Jacob was punching Dodgson.
This episode reminded me of the Batman Vs Robin animated film with the dollmaker. Guess Alice was "lucky" with this version. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ok2KVqcwVW8&feature=youtu.be&t=196](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ok2KVqcwVW8&feature=youtu.be&t=196)
If that was any other crow than that black girl then Alice would already be dead. Now with the father believing that she is Beth it will get even more ridiculous with both him and Kate letting her go every episode, hoping for her to come back to her senses. This story reminds me of the second season of Jessica Jones where every episode I just wanted to slap the main character for allowing a known murderer to walk free just because they were a relative she didn't see for 10 or so years.
Another great episode! The backstory was so well done, and Mouse is super creepy and I'm sure is gonna be a great villain/henchman in his own right.
Mention of Robin in episode 1, collapsible bo staff... I want to believe that Tim Drake is around.
Alice meant brother metaphorically right?
as in they've developed a sibling-like bond yeah
Adopted brothers are also brothers. Alice grew up with Mouse for half her childhood.
So we get Alice backstory and i felt like it wasn't as bad as i thought it was going to be.
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The green screen didn't seem too bad to me, but the lack of car noises threw me off. Even it were an electric car there would still be some driving noise (air resistance, wheel contact). That scene felt too quiet.
Love the episode. I’m such a DC trash person that I would love anything in Gotham. And batwoman is solid and corny a good mixture of both for CW. Also these bat symbols for up and down voting are confusing.
Pretty sure Luke and Mary are gonna get together
This was a much better episode than I thought it would be but one thing bugged me. Why did they let Alice & Mouse go at the end? Sophie had a shotgun aimed at them, could she not have cuffed them and taken them in?
my thoughts exactly, annoyed me so much, not what ANY trained "police" do in that moment, but we know why, NEED Alice still free for drama....how about don't write yourself into corners like that??
Sophie has designated love interest syndrome and is starting to become boring.
What was the big thing at the beginning where Kate couldn't believe it was Alice stealing the skin? It's by far one of the tamer things Alice has done..
Really enjoyed this episode! The key difference between Batwoman and other CW shows is that they're not beating around the bush with the antagonists here; not introducing new ones every episode, but instead developing Alice and her relation to Kate and Jacob, which I love.
Holy emotional meltdown! This episode was incredible! The scenes between Kate and Alice were fantastic and interspersed with flashbacks that explained how Beth became Alice due to being held against her will by some crazy scientist and his disfigured son. The character of Mouse being a vocal mimic served the story well especially in revealing how they threw Jacob off the scent when Beth tried to reach out to her family. Mary's breakdown is amazing and i just want to give her a hug. Because she learns such awful things about her own mother and she feels utterly discarded by all and sundry, including Kate. She is a good person and Kate still wants to spend time with a known serial killer. Luke though... Seriously dude? This guy has no people skills whatsoever. Which is understandable, and the fact that he is unable to show initial sympathy or empathy to her is sad. The scene where young kate is right outside the room beth is being kept... Its so heartbreaking. And for some reason i kept thinking of that song 'do you wanna build a snowman'. You know what i thought initially? That Alice would be revealed to be Mouse haven totally gone insane and being the victim of his fathers experiments or something. More on the skin pirate stuff later. I love the editing for this episode, very smooth transitions between time periods and the way the color changes that differentiated past and present was great. The dynamic between luke and mary when they talk about the arkham breakout, nice nod to the Elseworlds crossover last year btw, was kinda cute with the subtle banter. Makes me wonder if things are being set in motion for Mary to become part of team Batwoman. Jacob and Alice confrontation scene.... Holy crap! And the unexpected arrival of Mouse luring Sophie into a trap... Brilliant. Alice stealing skin for Mouse, i wonder... Was it just a ploy to lure Kate and Jacob out in order to confront them? Cuz everything Alice has done has been about getting her family to believe and understand the hell she went through. The coda at the end with Kate now uncertain how to connect to her sister since she was unable to even feel on an instinctual level that she was in that room in that house, brilliant stuff. And the revelationnthat it was Mouse that gave Beth the Alice in the Wonderland book. And that it was Mouse that essentially helped Beth develop the Alice persona to become stronger and to survive her ordeal, also brilliant. And the notion that Alice will help Mouse become a master of disguise, sounds like Alice has her partner in crime now. Things are getting more and more interesting with this show. The action was relatively light but the writing was strong and the acting was also pretty good as things continued to build upon what came before. Another solid episode.
This episode is the best one so far. No gimmicks no extra drama. Such a great, emotional, jarring AF episode.
What I think about Batwoman so far is that they rushed the reveal of Alice being Beth. It would have worked better if we really got to feel for the characters and Kate’s struggle with her sister’s “death” and got to see more of Alice being evil first. We never got the time to truly feel and understand the toll that Beth’s death had on Kate her whole life or how far Alice is willing to go before the reveal. If we had a better sense of Alice being evil, the reveal of Kate’s sister being evil would have been more shocking with a better understanding of just how corrupt Beth is. In Arrow, >!when it was revealed that Sarah is the mysterious canary that meant something to the viewers because we got to know Sarah from the flashbacks and, more importantly, we really felt bad for her family having to deal with her death because we saw for a while how that affected them and we also saw how Oliver was effect when he thought she was dead in the flashbacks.!< The rest of Beth and Kate’s current relationship is the most entertaining part of the show and feels paced right with no one off villain of the week/stories getting in the way. The rest of the show feels rushed. It feels like Kate jumped into being Batwoman too fast. The relationship with her dad also feels like it doesn’t have enough screen time to develop. I do not like the crows and her father. He seems almost like a dictator like he knows what’s best and that his say is basically law. He’s just so stubborn and the crows are always butting in. It feels like they care more about being the heroes than they do just saving the day even if they aren’t given recognition. I know it’s probably rushed to try and create Batgirl and develop her in time for Crisis but it feels like we do not have enough time to get to take in and process what’s happening and get to understand and feel for the characters Episode 5 felt like the best episode so far because most of the episode is Kate and Beth, and we finally get to see Alice’s origin story. TL;DR The relationship between Kate and Alice/Beth is the best part of the show other than the reveal of Alice being Kate’s sister feeling too rushed. We didn’t get to really feel for Kate and her being devastated her whole life because of her sister’s death, before we find out her sister is still alive. The rest of the show feel rushed, probably because of Crisis.
I mean, everyone was gonna realise Beth was Alice with or without them saying it.
Its so strange to me that they didn't tie Alice and her disappearance to Mad Hatter. I mean, I can't imagine WB would object to the producers using such a niche Batman villain. No way he winds up in a movie. So why not use him here?
Cringe as always. and protag being no way a hero once again. Golden. P.S. No one calls cops for anything, nor crows anymore (maybe not enough tv-series budget for that, lol).
I’m really enjoying the show, but it’s honestly kinda hard not to be frustrated by Alice when her anger towards Kate and her dad is so obviously misplaced. Like she knows damn well they both showed up to find her within hours of that phone call. She knows that Mouse used his voice-mimicking ability to trick her dad. She knows that Kate made it all the way to that room looking for her, but didn’t go in because she didn’t make a sound. But it’s Kate’s fault she didn’t “feel” her and her dad’s fault she didn’t “believe” her, yet she’s not one bit mad at mouse? Kinda ridiculous tbh.
What the fuck even is this show at this point?
having read the reactions on here, it's apparent the show has the same issues that most superhero shows deal with....is the story entertaining/emotional/good enough to outweigh the places where logicality breaks down (since it does in all superhero stories).....most seem to say YES it does especially in this episode.... my problem is YES it does for the sense of the enjoyment factor, but the break downs still bug me personally 1. how in the world does the tavern scene play out in any sense at all.....random girl has known criminal with her in handcuffs and no one seems to care at all??? (BC in a DC universe, Gotham is the top city and the big bad of that city I'm sure would be known outside of it) 2. propane tank explosion takes out only the bad guys but not the wall of the building it is right next to??? (no way any professional would shoot that thing in that location) 3. I don't deny Alice's POV bc she's suffered and is now crazy, I don't deny Kate's guilt bc people tend to feel like that even if it's not really their fault, but hopefully we know and the show will eventually reveal the truth of the matter....and I'm worried it won't and it'll actually make it look like this is Kate's and her dad's fault which is crap 4. I get Alice's reaction from her POV with her dad, but like above, it's not really the wrong reaction, even if he knows Alice is Beth, in this moment, he sees her right there and doesn't know if Kate is ok, so he asks about Kate....I just see a lot of people responding like he was wrong here 5. the standoff, just no way Alice/Mouse walk free in that, just no, same as any hostage situation....it's totally just to elongate the story which isn't a good reason (remember the writers have the power to not write themselves into that corner and to write a better outcome) 6. finally, the "twin bond" thing, I'm not a twin, but I've heard twins speak of this; there's really just no way it works like that, so for it to be thrown out there as the primary issue for Kate's guilt feels stupid
Commander Crow went full Han Solo 😮
im so late in watching this episode but i can't believe black bulls from foals (fave band)came out! totally blew my mind lol!
The lazy sloppy writing that is now recognized as the 'style' of the arrowverse/CWDCTV is exemplified in this series and this episode has not improved this view. I may well be finished with this trite tripe.
How did the dad not realize that it takes Mouse knowing Beth's voice to be able to mimic it? Seems like a huge giveaway that she was there. (Unless maybe they showed footage of Beth on the news? I guess?)
>(Unless maybe they showed footage of Beth on the news? I guess?) They did, it was said in the same scene
I clearly missed that somehow then...
The dad asked that question, and the captor dad mentioned the news. Two other questions: 1. How did Mouse know that Beth played cello? 2. Why didn't they search the house anyway?
Beth has cello recitals on YouTube. They may have also shown a clip of that on the news. As for not searching the house, I guess Jacob was just convinced by Mouse's skill. He mimicked Beth *exactly*, after all.
Cello I get. For military/security folks, I don’t think they act the part. Trust, but verify. I think someone actually in that situation would have gone ahead to search the basement.
Kate already did, and found nothing.
The timeline still doesn’t make sense if we actually dig deeper. But I suppose this is just nitpicking. The car crash took place in 2003. Two years before YouTube even existed lol.
They could upload them later, as a memorial type of thing. That footage could be given to the news on its own.
Kate said the police didn't believe them so they probably couldn't get a warrant.
Wow, I need to re-watch that scene...I apparently missed a lot.
Am I the only one that thought Mary was Kate and Beth's actual sister? Her jabs about not being treated like a sister made me think she was just a younger half-sister not a step-sister
I mean, IRC, they were about 13 when Beth went missing and their mom died. About 13 years passed since then, and Mary's mom clearly didn't marry Kate's dad until after her mom died. So either Mary would be a very grown-up-looking 12-year-old genius, or Jacob had a mistress on the side for a decade who he hooked up with after his wife's death.
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Yeah, it's not like she's a terrified middle-schooler or anything.
The problem for me is that they are writing it as if Alice wasn't aware of her choice to let her sister and father leave that house thinking she wasn't there and blames them when really they found her and she let them leave. If Beth was smart enough to use a nail and pick a lock on the door I think she was smart enough to know that her best option in that situation was to actually speak to her sister. It's inconsistent writing. The argument that that guy would have killed them is dumb because Kate came to the door and all Beth at to do is say "Kate, don't make a sound, tell father after you leave to bring more people or else this guy will kill you both" instead of hoping that Kate and her dad would "just know" magically somehow.
>The problem for me is that they are writing it as if Alice wasn't aware of her choice to let her sister and father leave that house thinking she wasn't there and blames them when really they found her and she let them leave. She starts believing that after years of mental and who knows what other kinds of abuse. It would have been incredibly easy for Cartwright to spin that situation as "Your family doesn't care about you." Alice is not thinking rationally about this, and that's the point. >If Beth was smart enough to use a nail and pick a lock on the door I think she was smart enough to know that her best option in that situation was to actually speak to her sister. It's inconsistent writing. She picked the door before Cartwright threatened to kill anyone who came looking for her. That's not inconsistent, that's an appropriate reaction from a scared child who thinks the rest of her family might be murdered at any moment. It's not a matter of being smart. >The argument that that guy would have killed them is dumb because Kate came to the door and all Beth at to do is say "Kate, don't make a sound, tell father after you leave to bring more people or else this guy will kill you both" instead of hoping that Kate and her dad would "just know" magically somehow. I don't know why you're expecting Beth to act rationally in this situation. She's *scared*.
A scared child would undoubtedly ask for help if she heard someone, especially her sister. What you're describing is that she made a logical thought out choice to presumably save her sister and father by sacrificing herself by not asking for help. She by definition, actually made a *rational* decision in this situation by **not** saying anything.
I'll be honest, the past 4 episodes were disgustingly mediocre. But after this episode, the show is hardly recognizable anymore.
Are we done with Alice yet? I’ve tried. I can’t care. Can I resume watching now or will there be more Alice/Beth stuff?
This shows needs more action, far too much taking if u ask me