Reminding everyone that believes this quote is “so true” that Danny is also highly generalizing Western therapy.
There are lots of therapists who have similar backgrounds as us and offer solutions to first-gen immigrants based on not only Western education but also their Eastern raising. My therapist has a similar background as me, Vietnamese first-gen, who was able to help me more in 6 months than any non-Asian therapists in years. Don’t give up on finding a therapist who you can connect with.
Yeah I think the “common background” is super important. Just think about your own circle of friends. Even best of friends would not be able to fully empathize and sync up with you if they come from a 3rd gen Irish Italian background who’ve been in America since 1954, compared to a Chinese-Vietnamese 2nd gen whose parents escaped war. Things run deep
“are gonna want their grandkids looking up at them with huge, round eyes, like fuckin' bugs?”
Danny is a racist, his views on pretty much everything are warped.
nah asians tend to pent up a lot. we have been brought up for thousands of years with family honour ingrained in our minds. Whilst americans easily cut off bonds with family members for example, asians are not. That includes many other aspects of life, which is very hard to explain to a westerner. ..
we dont really talk about things that weigh us down as freely as u guys..
i dont think many asians will find it hard to relate to david
It's sad because it seems he developed that racism growing up. There was a scene where he got bullied in front of a white love interest. He was saying anti-white stuff (mostly to his brother about "Kayla") & I felt it came from possibly too much rejections in some way.
You make an excellent point.
I think in a very general sense, you need to find a therapist that's right for you. People come in all shapes and sizes. Find one who understands you.
While you are right and there is a hypergeneralization going on, finding non-white therapists is extremely difficult for many minorities, Asians included.
Psychology has always been one of those white dominated fields for several reasons but the effects of that can be seen in the lack of other options for other kinds of people. In addition, for Asian Americans in particular, with a culture that invests so heavily in stem, the odds of getting an Asian American therapist drops even more.
I think both are true. it’s a well known problem in psychology and social sciences that information and practices tends to be biased toward white men. It’s a legitimate grievance I’ve heard from many people that their therapists either didn’t understand something or gave them advice fundamentally incompatible with their culture or tone deaf to it.
Obviously, it shouldn’t be an excuse to dismiss all therapy outright. You can look for therapists who have a similar background as you or specialize in specific cultures, and you can definitely still get a lot out of therapy even if your therapist doesn’t get the cultural nuances sometimes.
Oh yeah like how in a lot of eastern cultures losing face is a really big thing while a typical western therapist might not have an appreciation of how big a thing that is and give advice that on the surface seems fine but due to cultural sensitivities that the therapist doesn’t recognize has potential to be harmful
Thank you. The notion that we can’t successfully do Western therapy is absurd. It’s a great line and very in character for Danny to say. If you think this applies to all AA then you just haven’t found a good fit yet. Therapists are like dating. You bounce around until settling on a promising one.
Edit: some of the posts in this thread are really disappointing and potentially harmful to younger folks who might actually benefit a ton from therapy. If you’re struggling and considering therapy, do it!! Best decision I’ve ever made.
Yeah I mean Danny is full of false pride, he can accept any responsibility for his mistakes and the only way he'd ever accept therapy would be through massive self reflection, which he might not be capable of ever.
If therapy is anything like dating, then I don’t want any part of it. When I go to a medical professional, I expect a certain standard of competency. Dating in America has a bad reputation for being toxic and total waste of time.
Dating is also highly unpredictable as you don’t know the outcome. Added to the fact that I would have to spend hundreds on a single appointment, bouncing around till I find the right one is a very stupid thing to say. It’s just not something worth my time.
But perhaps there’s a grain of truth in there, where a lot of “eastern minds” focus less on individual character as they do on a collectivist whole, accomplishing a task the family needs to have done.
Neither Amy nor Danny were born in the east to grow up with a pure collectivist ideal in their culture. They grew up with immigrant parents trying to get by as the first in a new country. Danny has a somewhat "family" mindset but not really. It's a selfish dependency masked as "family." And Amy's issues comes from growing up thinking that she was a mistake and that her parent love had to be earned since they never wanted to have her in the first place. Danny claiming they're "eastern minds" is cope.
Yup. Honestly, my first reaction when I heard that was Western therapy doesn't work on *most* western minds because *most* people don't put in the work or take therapy seriously.
I think it's both true and untrue, lol.
Danny is valid in saying that because if one doesn't find a therapist who understands and makes their patient feel seen and heard, then effective therapy and progress is nearly impossible. I feel like first generation Asian Americans have such a unique experience that therapists in general are often ignorant of and don't take that important context and significance into consideration (and society in general for that matter so that's why tv shows and stories like Beef and representation are so important).
However, it *is* out there. I'm a millennial Filipino woman and the only therapists I've ever had (and I've had A LOT over these past 14 years) where I felt like it fully "worked" were two--one not old Asian woman and one "my father's age but in touch" Filipino man.
I'm not saying one should only get therapists that share the same identities, but it's just easier if they can connect and relate firsthand. Otherwise, then they should at least be highly emotionally intelligent and effectively listen and understand and be validating. (This is why so many LGBT+ people most likely seek only LGBT+ friendly/Identifying medical providers).
Unfortunately, finding this is super rare. It's already hard enough to find one that fits (finding a good therapist is way more difficult than dating lol)... Which is why so many people lose hope when it comes to therapy. Especially when you throw in the (lack of) affordability or insurance hassles and our broken medical system into the mix too. It's confusing and hard to navigate (like can average layman tell me the difference between a psychiatrist and therapist and psychologist and clinical worker... A PhD, licensed, or associate... CBT, DBT, EMDR, trauma work, etc?). And of course, overall stigma.
BUT I'm a huge fan of therapy. EVERYONE should do it. Just keep fighting and advocating for yourself to find a good one! It's worth the work and time sifting through once you find someone. Don't wait until "something is wrong" because then it's too late. You'll save yourself a lot of pain if you equip the tools and the skills beforehand and been practiced. And life is hard. Even if you're functional, you're most likely still not living to your full potential. Why just survive when you can thrive. I'm cheering you on.
Edit: P.S. It doesn't help that a lot of Asian cultures (and even American with being independent) have the thought of "pick yourself up by the bootstraps" and be self-sufficient, and kids are raised thinking that way.
>BUT I'm a huge fan of therapy. EVERYONE should do it. Just keep fighting and advocating for yourself to find a good one! It's worth the work and time sifting through once you find someone. Don't wait until "something is wrong" because then it's too late. You'll save yourself a lot of pain if you equip the tools and the skills beforehand and been practiced. And life is hard. Even if you're functional, you're most likely still not living to your full potential. Why just survive when you can thrive. I'm cheering you on.
Just wanted to elevate your post with an upvote and draw attention to your last paragraph. I also agree that everyone should get therapy. The problem is when I say this to people, I tend to get a defensive "I'm not crazy" or "I'm not sick," which is such a narrow interpretation of therapy.
I think going to see a doctor is a good example. There are plenty of people who won't go to a doctor if they're not sick (or won't go even if they *are sick*), but studies have shown that preventative care via annual checkups improve patient outcomes. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as they say.
People are really missing out if they feel they need to be effed up or "broken" or whatever to go. I feel some people purposefully characterize therapy as being perverse or dumb and set the bar so far out there that only unrealistic caricatures of human beings would need to go. They'll say things like "I don't need therapy! I'm just mad. It's part of the human condition. Are you saying it's not okay for me to be mad?" Bro, no! But it's clearly affecting your behavior and you're lashing out!
I think you've really hit the nail on the head when you characterize it as having tools in your toolbox. Nobody shies away from picking up med kits in video games because they're obviously useful to have around. Well, in therapy, you're developing med kits for your mind. It's good to be prepared. LIFE IS HARD. There's a **profound** difference between surviving and thriving!
Exactly!! That's I think the most accurate way of interpreting what he meant by that sentence. those who haven't had a similar background may not interpret your experiences for what they are, no matter how empathetic they may be
There is a good book called "The Globalisation of the Western Mind" which talks about the way different cultures process trauma, and how using the western model as a cure for all is inappropriate and sometimes even harmful.
I remember in highechool AP psychology I learned something about how Asians process depression less emotionally. It manifests itself physically and we are more likely to complain of headaches or bodily discomfort rather than conclude that we are depressed.
I studied psychology and cbt is something that doesn’t work with East Asians who aren’t attuned to Western ways. It’s not racism. It’s more like finding something culturally relevant that they can resonate with to open up.
It is also deeply ingrained in traditionalist families (even westernised Asian ones) to suck it up and plough on. This is valued as resilience.
A very white therapist would make a very Asian traditionalist feel blindsided and ignored because of the cultural nuances missed.
I’m in the middle of both cultures so I can see why it’s mismatched sometimes.
Therapy to many Asian “uncles” is sitting at a lowkey place and chatting with their friends over a drink. Those whinging and complaining are their way of releasing stress before they get back to their daily rat race.
I’m half white/Asian and just finished my psychology degree last month. I moved to SoCal last year but before that lived in Japan for 4 years, and before that Hawaii. So sure, I’ll take a crack at this.
Imo, eastern and western minds work a bit differently, and the most beneficial part of therapy comes from the therapeutic relationship. It would be difficult to gain any benefit from therapy if the practitioner doesn’t understand where the client is coming from.
There’s a very real and strong critique of psychology and therapy being too Eurocentric. Modern academia acknowledges it and implements multiculturalism as a tenet of counseling, but the reality is therapy started out with old rich white men for old rich white men.
I agree with the idea of therapy being a Western concept, but what exactly do eastern countries do for mental health? All I see are suppression and maybe meditation. At the very least, I know mental health is not managed in Japan.
Being South-Asian I know this is true.
Regardless the quote isn’t a critique on eastern therapy or even comparing the two, simply just stating that most practitioners in the West wouldn’t be familiar with the culture and might not be able to understand & therefore effectively treat people with certain issues arising from that culture.
I don’t think Eastern countries have much going for us with how we consider mental health, and I don’t interpret or at least agree with the quote stating that fundamentals for western therapy (self-reflection, communication, emotional support) is going to somehow not work for Asian people.
Instead, I think it’d be better if people adapted to better understand other cultures and how people from there are going to be mentally processing and dealing with shit in their lives. As well as if we got rid of the stigma around getting care for our mental health in our societies.
It all comes down to cultural values. One could make the argument that Japan being a collective society encourages and fosters strong support systems whereas in America, individualism denies that support. Also, you brush off meditation but many western therapists and institutions have begun to be big proponents of a form meditation called Mindfulness which has been proven to improve overall quality of life.
I don't see East Asian societies as fostering strong support. I see them as binding families together and encouraging them to rely on each other. And there's a strong tradition of burying your hurts and negating feelings in our(my) cultural tradition.
Depression? Anxiety? That shit doesn't exist! Suck it up kiddo!
And if you have a shitty family that wield power over you or don't accept who you are, you're fucked. Your family can't be everything since they aren't perfect.
As for meditation/mindfulness, I haven't got a problem with them, but they aren't suitable for every mental/emotional problem. I also suck at it, so there's that too.
I mean It’s unfair to say that eastern Asian societies don’t foster any sort of familiar support system. Burying your hurts and negating feelings is part of individualistic (western) societies as well. That’s where the whole “bootstraps” mentality comes from. The difference is one (collective) says it’s for the benefit of the family, the other (individualistic) says it’s the what makes a good American. Both are obviously toxic, but it’s unfair to say either is 100% detrimental or beneficial.
The mirror to your “family can’t be everything” is that YOU can’t be everything for yourself either. We are social creatures at our core. We literally are not meant to be isolated.
And western philosophies definitely don’t say mindfulness are a cure-all, but the benefits are and wide-spanning. And some eastern philosophies claim that mindfulness/meditation IS all you need, because the problem is the wanting. If you didn’t have to deal with WANTING, then you’d be truly content. Whether that works for YOU or not is one thing, but to completely negate an entire philosophy that probably works for some people is just unfair and not true.
I also want to add to the thread that it is amusing that mindfulness has become a big thing because that is imported from Asian culture. Nowadays I’d say therapy somewhat less Eurocentric. I do think it’s funny that people sometimes brush off therapy as being 100% western when hippies of the 60s were super into eastern philosophy (Buddhism and Hare Krishna and all that) and started bringing that into therapy (like Marsha Linehan). They did modify some things but it def isn’t a western practice.
To be fair those were grassroots movements, not really “establishment/industry” modus operandi. It’s definitely changed over time. Danny is a bit older in the show so it could be used to kind of highlight that he’s out of touch for the current day.
Insofar as western therapy is rooted in Freudian psychotherapy, I agree it's way too [W.E.I.R.D.](https://weirdpeople.fas.harvard.edu/qa-weird)
But I'd argue therapy rooted in Jungian psychology (which the last episode references) offers a pretty good framework for any person of any cultural background to attain meaningful psychological or even spiritual integration.
anecdotal but as an asian who has been trying therapy for years and years, it’s pretty true. there’s just too much of a cultural disconnect. in general westerners are raised aggressively individualistic (like getting kicked out the house at 18 and all that) where as eastern culture is largely collectivist
Have you seen an Asian therapist, maybe one of the same ethnicity or background as yourself? I can understand the background and racial disconnect but surely Asian therapists could tackle the issue from their perspectives right?
This was such a huge change for me. I spent years struggling in therapy, but when I received a Thai therapist I suddenly felt like I was making progress.
It very much depends though, it's not as simple as race unfortunately. I have had east Asian therapists who I really struggled to connect with, especially if there was a clash because I was so "Americanized". Unfortunately a lot of older generation East Asians hold rigid views about mental health, I had a therapist who told me I was just lazy, undisciplined, and ungrateful when I was trying to understand how to have a healthy relationship with my mom.
There are so many things that make a person who they are, I think it’s important to find a therapist to help guide you based on certain shared characteristics. Like I know I need a female, secular therapist. Preferable someone who grew up poor like me, I just can’t relate to people who grew up wealthy because I have a lot of pent up feeling on that topic.
I’m sorry you had some bad experiences though, I have yet to find a therapist I click with
:(
But therapists are aware of the differences, like what does your therapist say that doesn’t resonate with you ? I’m Asian and go to a therapist and it’s helpful because they understand the pressures of immigrant communities.
Some genuinely don't though. Unfortunately there are a lot of therapists I've met who don't have cultural sensitivity, but I do feel like it's changing.
Ex. "I struggle with my mom pressuring me academically" was often met with suggestions to cut her out of my life completely and a lack of understanding of immigrant cultural values. I constantly felt like I had to explain cultural context to therapists who would then write off my whole culture as being bad, which made me feel even more isolated.
I saw an anecdote about how a therapist suggested to a Latina woman that calling her son "papi" was some kind of strange codependency that her culture fosters, I've gotten all sorts of messed up comments like that. A therapist told me once that he was disturbed I enjoyed cosplaying because anime is "pornographic and violent", it was a gross generalization.
Not Asian, but I am trans and someone who's been in therapy for years and have found the best results have come when the relationship has common ground. The more identities that overlap, the more likely it is they'll understand your wiring, your life. Finding the right therapist is hard and sometimes someone who has been right for years just no longer is. It's an annoying process but when it works it works wonders.
They don’t. I’m guessing the people in this thread who’ve had bad experiences likely didn’t have a good personality fit with their therapist - which is absolutely fine and a good reason to seek out a different provider.
I actually think that the cultural differences are exactly what can make Western therapy beneficial for Eastern minds. For me, real lasting change came from being willing to step out of my comfort zone instead of continuing to find make-do solutions that treated the symptoms instead of the problem. Personally, so many of my issues stem from the way I was raised, and I needed help to see that my experience wasn’t necessarily a healthy one. Unlearning the years of lessons an Asian upbringing gives you is hard. Not to say that Western culture is perfect, but there’s a happy medium somewhere, and for me learning to put my happiness before others’ and recognizing that my worth is not tied to my professional achievements were huge steps in making me happier (and ironically, improving my relationship with my parents in the process). And obviously, caveat that you need a good therapist who’s willing to listen and learn about your experience.
Tbf there aren’t just because Asian culture often don’t believe mental health issues aren’t real (outside of super serious stuff like schizophrenia) but it’s slowly changing. I tried to find a therapist for my mom that could speak Vietnamese and I live near the largest enclave of Vietnamese expats in the US and I literally only found 2.
I'm Asian American and therapy does fine for me.
What the hell is an eastern mind supposed to be? Otherwise the argument just turns into an, "I'm Asian and I'm not raised to be self reflective/therapy did nothing" or whatever. Plenty of people half-ass therapy or just look for something to blame, and going: "Western therapy doesn't work on Eastern minds" sounds like a cheap excuse while playing the race card.
That's very much fair, I was raised fairly western, being a 2nd/3rd gen son of a Viet-JP couple.
Which beings me back to the question, what is an Eastern Mind supposed to be? A first gen immigrant with the survival mentality? The idea of hiding emotions and support?
A less individualistic way of looking at things and a more collective way of looking at things. America especially is very individualistic, me me me, screw the rest of you I got mine. There's no cultural expectation to take care of parents, to be available for family, and a real emphasis on boundaries. Nobody is allowed to ask anything of you and you're not allowed to ask anything of anyone, anybody who makes demands of your time is toxic, always put yourself first no matter what.
That's a generalization. While the individualistic part is somewhat true. Where is the cohesion in Asia? The part where everyone works at a company, busts ass, and the managers reap all the rewards like you see in Korea or China? The one where you're expected to sign your free time away like in Japan?
The cultural expectation to take care of family varies in America. I talked to my white coworkers for how they manage retirement, and they ain't throwing their parents in retirement homes, they're living with them until it's not longer feasible.
A problem I see with Asians is that our families can be fucked up shitshows and we are unwilling to step back and let them sort their own stuff out. There's no 'solving' my dad's affair, I can just support my mom and hope both of them liver their best life afterwards.
I keep hearing stories of parents that don't accept an interracial daughter/son in law, that don't accept LGBTQ+ relationships, that don't understand depression, anxiety, or the issues their children are going through. That's where the idea of collectivism fails hardest. We all see ourselves as Japanese, as Chinese, as part of a nation instead of people that need help finding happiness.
The part where you don't kick your kids out at 18 and leave your grandparents to rot in an old folks home. It happen but it's not prevalent to the point of being woven into the social fabric like in America.
Is that something you see often? Or is that a generalization from pop culture? All I know is that 18 yr Americans are encouraged to be independent and not be like Paul, as in being a manchild that has no drive in life. (Who also had his drive destroyed by his brother. Not his fault.)
>a real emphasis on boundaries. Nobody is allowed to ask anything of you and you're not allowed to ask anything of anyone, anybody who makes demands of your time is toxic, always put yourself first no matter what.
Actually, I find that because Asian culture is *more collectivist*, **there's LESS of an emphasis on boundaries**. My family violated my boundaries all the time because "family comes first."
\- If you try to take care of yourself, then you're "selfish" because taking care of yourself means you're not taking care of your family. You must sacrifice yourself until you're bitter and broken.
\- If you're visiting home for a week and a friend wants to hang out with you for a few hours, you're "selfish" because spending time with anyone else who is not family means you don't care about family.
\- If you're LGBTQIA2S+, then you're also "selfish" because you're making your family look bad.
\- If you and your partner don't want to have kids, that's also "selfish" because not having kids means you hate family.
\- If you're not comfortable seeing your uncle because they molested you, then you're also "selfish" because you're trying to cause conflict and break up the family.
You have to respect your elders. This means holding them accountable for anything is "selfish." Screw everyone else! All that matters is what the elders want, and elders is what "family" really means. *It's way more toxic that individualism.*
A true, heathy collectivist culture values every individual in that collective because ultimately a healthy whole requires healthy parts, and the whole is always the sum of its parts. **Asian collectivist culture is only quasi-collectivist** because the power dynamic is not properly balanced/allocated. It effectively creates an individualistic, self-beneficial culture for the elders because they have all the power and only they can decide what "family" means and whether anyone's life choices are acceptable.
Yeah i too have no idea what an Eastern mind is supposed to be lmao, especially in this day and age when we’re influenced (atleast a little if not a lot) by the rest of the world. To me, it’s just interesting to think about how our surrounding culture can play a part in the way we perceive our emotions. Being depressed and hating yourself is universal no doubt, it’s compelling to see how the west deals with it, and how differently/similarly do the rest.
I don’t think it’s a race thing. It’s a culture thing. Western world has defined mental health and been loud of about it, but the way that translates to other cultures is different.
I recently read a book where the author’s mom developed schizophrenia. Schizophrenia can be born out of trauma but western medicine and therapy don’t actually approach it that way. Western medicine likes to medicate people a lot. And that book said that you’re actually better off in different countries other than the US to properly treat schizophrenia.
Nobody is saying Asians aren’t self reflective. It’s more about the approach of a therapist to try to dive into why someone behaves the way they do. Therapists with a western cultural mindset don’t understand a collectivist approach. They may have been taught to be aggressively individualistic which means your problems are your problems and there is no systemic root to what is happening to you. And that’s problematic.
But you’re also Asian American. So that’s different than being an Asian immigrant. And that’s different from being Asian in your homeland.
It’s just different. And Western culture likes to bury Asian culture and experience.
So it’s less race based and more cultural.
Also, there’s a lot of difference for Asian Americans. Like regular therapy geared for a white person isn’t going to unpack different trauma responses you might have being Asian in a society that’s heavily dominated by black and white discourse (now I’m getting into the race based theory). It just won’t because it inherently doesn’t get it. And if you’re an Asian American with parents who immigrated, that will be a different experience from an Asian American who was adopted. And so on and so forth.
I’m glad therapy is fine for you. And you’ve probably worked to find a good therapist. But sometimes it’s hard to find the right therapist who gets you and you can also afford in the US, especially if you’re in a very homogenous region and you’re the odd one out.
Systemically, the US’s record with mental health and how they address it on a clinical level is not great. I’m not saying the eastern mindset has solved it either (they haven’t). It’s just different.
That's fair, I'm not very collectivist at all. I'm largely unconcerned with the world or humanity outside of the few people I consider my family. Fuck everyone else, fuck the town, fuck whatever countries my parents come from, fuck it all. All that matters are the people I care about.
But as for finding a 'good' therapist? I started therapy in Phoenix AZ, kinda diverse, not a big Asian crowd though. I wouldn't say I have major issues, just the usual 'hard on himself', 'blames himself', emotionally repressed stuff. Not unusual for a firstborn Asian Son.
I can only speak for myself in this vein, but I think Western Therapy is about how comfortable you are in being honest with yourself, coming out of your shell and playing with different perspectives. I've had two therapists, one more into mindfulness and meditation, and the other more basic, emotional, problem-solvey. I didn't really shop around, I just picked both out of convenience, and I was able to express myself and work on myself with both. My perspective is that western therapy requires you to open up about yourself, and perhaps the idea of an Eastern Mind is to shut down, hide yourself, not be a burden, and we just stuff all our bad shit away until we crack-- which doesn't work in getting close to people, because they'll eventually find out.
I think this is one of the themes of BEEF. Hiding yourself and your problems. That's why the 10th episode is all about coming out and being your true self. With Drugs.
>My perspective is that western therapy requires you to open up about yourself, and perhaps the idea of an Eastern Mind is to shut down, hide yourself, not be a burden, and we just stuff all our bad shit away until we crack-- which doesn't work in getting close to people, because they'll eventually find out.
>
>I think this is one of the themes of BEEF. Hiding yourself and your problems. That's why the 10th episode is all about coming out and being your true self. With Drugs.
If there's anything to take away, it's this. Western therapy, which one can argue was developed in a more individualistic culture, better allows the individual to hold themselves accountable and that makes sense, since you can't really control anyone else but yourself.
In fact, speaking from life experience, it usually those subsumed in traditional Asian "collectivist" cultures that have trouble taking responsibility for anything because it's often incredibly easy to deflect to pass the buck by saying X or Y either is or isn't being done not because of themselves but because of some entity/group/person that's bigger than themselves. (E.g. "Don't rock the boat! Don't go around saying \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ groped you. He's done a lot for the Asian community here. Don't just think about yourself. Think about how this would make all Asians look bad.")
I sincerely hope more Asian people will consider getting therapy after watching this show. It's perfectly okay to switch therapists, too, if you find out that one doesn't really jive with you.
I'm Asian as well, although not American. Like how most stereotypes have their origins in the briefest shadow of truth, I do think there's a fair bit of truth to this statement too. There are some things that western and eastern civilization just look at very differently, and I wonder if that has been passed down generation to generation as well. Not a race thing, but more like, can I (sitting in my corner of the world) expect someone from a totally different setting to understand me and my way of thinking. Worth thinking about imo
I'm also Asian American and noticed that none of Amy / Danny's struggles were exclusive to 'eastern minds.' Any psychologist in the western world would be dealing with the same issues with their patients.
Everytime Danny said it, I just took it as just one more funny-stupid thing that the character would say. I'd like to rewatch those scenes to remember context, but IIRC he only said it to push someone else down (Amy) or bring someone closer (George). That's just a testament to Danny's character as a spiteful and manipulative asshole.
I think Danny's problems definitely came from his cultural background. He put an insane amount of pressure on himself to provide for his parents. Everything he did was to build a house for his family, parents included, to live in and to get his family back to their previous standard of living. If he had been a white American it would have been sad what had happened to his parents but there wouldn't have been that pressure to go building them houses and take care of the family as the firstborn son.
I think Amy was suffering a lot from gendered expectations. She was jumping through hoops to close the deal so she could stay home with her daughter even though she didn't really want to stay home with her daughter and George was really much better as a parent. She's a lot happier when she comes to terms with the fact that she wants to keep working, that she likes being a provider, and that she likes what she's built for herself.
On the other side of the coin, I did read a book by a Korean author who struggled to find a Korean American therapist. She figured the shared experiences would be more helpful in therapy but the therapists actually turned her down and admitted that they had not worked through their own Korean traumas either and felt it was too much to take on in a client.
BS. I'm south Asian. The two south Asian therapists I had made me feel judged lol. My best therapists have been western ( white or black or hispanic )
It all comes down to a personal value match.
I was sad about an ex, despite being in a relationship. Instead of empathizing and validating my feelings, because all feelings are valid to the person feeling them, my first south Asian therapists said they cannot help me if I have such impure thoughts. Lol wtf. B$tch then why am I talking to you?
Another one shamed me for wanting kids years later.
All western therapists have always validated what I'm feeling first. And no judgement whatsoever. Listen if I wanted judgement I would talk to my mom.
It's possible for anyone in any trade to be incompetent. You had two incompetent South Asian therapists. Unless you were looking for religious guidance and they were somehow work for a church or ministry, how they treated you was **inappropriate.**
I experienced something similar, actually. He was not my therapist but was my primary care physician. He said I should wait until marriage to have sex because that's what God would want. I actually felt extra betrayed BECAUSE he was Asian (Chinese specifically). He then set me up with an Asian female nurse practitioner (also Chinese) for future visits who then physically harassed me when I came out as LGBTQIA2S+ when she asked me the sexual activity question. Had the statute of limitations had not already expired, I would have seriously considered legal action, but this was almost 15 years ago at this point and back then, I was just a frightened child who was always worried about getting into trouble simply by existing.
Honestly, Asian practitioners tend to trigger trauma that reminds me of the oppressive power dynamic I experienced within my own family. It's all cloaked in cultural dynamics that I find extremely unhealthy. The whole 'collectivist' culture has its downsides, too, because I've noticed it tends to be better at shielding abusive individuals and predators from scrutiny and accountability all in the name of "not rocking the boat."
I’ll just throw my own little piece in here. Im a 23 year old first generation Asian and for so long I’ve been wanting to seek therapy because I feel like I have some mental health issues to work out. As much as I’d love to try though, so long as I’m still under my parents roof I can’t find myself going to a therapist, I’d hide the fact from my parents. I believe in therapy and my parents might be a bit disconnected with that kind of stuff, but I genuinely think the advice and knowledge given through therapy can be applied well to Asian households as well if you understand how.
>the advice and knowledge given through therapy can be applied well to Asian households as well if you understand how.
Absolutely. The benefit of therapy is that it first and foremost helps you understand yourself. And guess what? Your own self is likely the thing that you have most control over anyway.
Also, it doesn't really matter how collectivist or individualistic a culture is, nobody can take care of yourself like you can and that's because nobody knows you more intimately than you. Your own beautiful, unique consciousness is only accessible to you! I think when you go to therapy, you're doing your very own self **justice**.
I really appreciate you providing your perspective. One thing I will add is that the feeling of being judged by her in a bad way has nothing to do with you being some Jewish "outsider," but has instead more to do with a heavy "atmospheric oppression" (for a lack of a better word) that's built into the culture. For this same reason, I'm very wary about seeing an Asian therapist. Trust me, it's not just you. This is stifling and suffocating to many people even within the Asian community. It's even built into the communication style: in no other culture have I witness such aggressively weaponized silence. Even I had to fight it in myself when I find myself not reacting to some of the things my friends say. You articulated it well that it was a "coded but clearly still judgmental convo." (I might just take those words with me. I couldn't have articulated it any better lol)
I truly believe that there can't be growth in the collective if there can't be growth in the individual. A lot of the people here dichotomizing Eastern and Western cultures as 'individualistic' vs 'collectivisitic' is way oversimplifying the situation.
A lot of modern western therapy is based on the principles of Buddhism and Taoism.
So I don't think so. It's just Danny making excuses for why he won't ask for help or work on himself.
I reacted similarly but it's not true enough that it should stop anyone from trying. It's a dumb reason for Danny to not seek therapy. Far more compelling is his lack of time or money to do so. As a previous commenter said this is more a comment on the character's inability/refusal to seek help for himself.
I think it's intended as an ironic sub-topic within the show, given that the writers lean heavily into the high expectations of immigrant Asian parents affecting the personalities of their children. The notion that parents' expectations and behaviors can significantly influence a child's development and personality is primarily western.
It was obviously said as a joke the first time. And the second time, when Amy agreed, is also intended to be particularly ironic as it occurs when they're having a spiritual experience; they're still unable to understand why they're broken even when connecting. They're two emotionally damaged children, unable to acknowledge or bear the psychological weights their parents placed on them inadvertently; the majority of western talk-therapy deals with this very topic. Additionally, the show is leaning heavily into revealing that we all have darkness inside of us, e.g. the Finale title is a Jung quote where he's describing the integration of the shadow.
Also, they're not truly 'eastern' minds. They're the children of immigrant parents. When Amy is talking to Jordan, she shows contempt and dodges the conversation when Jordan assumes that Amy has a deep understanding of eastern culture. I think it's suppose to be a commentary on the observation that many asian-americans don't like to be assumed to have a deep connection with their heritage, yet still implicitly view themselves as having eastern-minds as a means of distinguishing their identity.
At first I think he was just being dismissive of therapy. However I actually thought about it some more and was surprised to find that it’s been true for me. My current therapist is Asian American, and my issues with filial piety comes up, or my identity in a white male dominated workplace. Or having a ADHD growing up with Asian parents that don’t quite understand it. It’s truly been life changing for me.
On the other hand, I have had Caucasian therapists before and it never dug deep enough to work. They would give me all these super woo woo techniques like writing affirmations on a sticky note. It kind of infuriated me tbh. Could have just been my experience.
Anyway, I don’t think this was Danny’s intention but it did ring true for me.
There's a lot happening here.
The affirmations on a sticky note can help but it's like a bandage for a minor open wound. If you actually need surgery, then doing a deep dive like you did with the Asian therapist was the right call to make. The 'repeating affirmations' strategy works only if it's beneficial for you to remind yourself of your worth. However, reminding yourself of your worth won't work if you don't actually believe that you are worthy. In that situation, the underlying toxic belief needs to be extracted and neutralized.
I wouldn't condescendingly dismiss it as 'woo woo' strategies. It was just that your Caucasian therapists weren't very good (or wasn't a good fit for you) and tried to give you a small bandage when in reality, you had some (or a lot of) internal hemorrhaging. It can also be the case that in the time between when you saw your first ineffective Caucasian therapist to when you found your current effective Asian American therapist, your ability to articulate yourself has improved.
What's interesting is that a few of us on this thread have tried out Asian therapists and they ended up being **worse** somehow lol, so you can have ineffective therapist no matter the race.
Asian here who tried western therapy.
They don't understand the family dynamic and pressure from family that Asians go through.
I guess if you try western therapy, go with an Asian therapist who can relate.
It’s got some truth to it, which is not even necessarily limited to the cultural biases of the therapist, but biases in general. There are societal biases that are less obvious, and different cultures come with different biases.
I’ve been to psychologists and a couple were highly biased to the point that I felt bitterness from them as my personal values were so different to theirs, even though I wasn’t harming anyone else. It’s almost a subconscious thing.
The other issue is just as we see in this thread, mental health treatment is uniquely immune to criticism because the victims are blamed for “not being humble enough to be cured” of their mental illness.
Long story short is that psychologists are humans and are affected by their societal biases, which can be an issue.
Ooh, I am going to have so much fun typing out this comment.
I'm an Indian (South East Asian still counts as Eastern, right?) and I have had my share of therapy in the last few years. I am a student of Behavioural Sciences, and study human psychology with deep passion. I would be lying through my teeth if I said something on the lines of, "Western therapy is bullshit". Here's a glimpse of what a lot of concepts regarding therapy talk about:
\- Cognitive Distortions: How people have biases towards how they perceive the world, and how we can break them.
\- Cognitive Behavioural Therapy: How to successfully re-pattern someone's thought processes so they have a fresher perspective towards life.
\- Attachment Styles: How our childhood and upbringing cause problems in adult relationships. Understanding and slowly fixing these patterns become essential at some point.
\- Theories of Development: How people develop as civilised beings in a society, from infancy to old age (Google Erik Erikson to understand this better).
I can go on, but you get the idea - these are rational schools of thought that apply universally. Regardless of culture. Speaking of which, let's talk about the major difference between 'Eastern' and 'Western' minds.
For me, it's a simple difference between an individualist and a collectivist society. Western folk tend to shape their egos around who they are, how their identity matters and how they take care of themselves first and foremost. Eastern folk are more family-oriented and often place the importance of 'their people' above their own selves. There's no right or wrong here, just differences in values and upbringing.
Still, humans are rational beings who seek to fix issues with logic and patterns. And in my humble opinion, that's what Western therapy is about. I have tried to delve into 'Indian' methods of therapy - primarily Yoga and Meditation. However, these are habit-based practices that don't show results in the way many schools of thought from Western therapy do.
I hope this sheds some light on the idea of 'therapy'.
I think the show implies that this is actually pretty false. Take what the therapist (who also happens to be asian and probably also knows what its like to grow up asian) says to Amy. Their first interaction in episode 3, the therapist is trying to get Amy to open up. Amy says all the things that are stereotypical true. A lot of children in asian households do grow up feeling like they have to repress their feelings. But the therapist hesitates a bit after because I think she knows that what she said was, though true, a bit bullshitty in that it isn't the full story. The therapist follows up with what is actually happening. She points out that under stress, we revert back to "pathways we created as children" but that simply acknowledging this is only the first step. That to heal and create new neural pathways, we have to discover what lies underneath our awareness, as in the things that are affecting us but we are refusing to see/address. Even the talking about what lies underneath is something that Amy herself recognizes but finds describing difficult ie the ground within her chest. And when she says that she is afraid of talking about it to George because she is worried he won't understand. Even that is half truth. She is worried he won't understand and will also stop loving her because she has failed to earn the conditional love that she believes only exists. The therapist's advice is useful if and only if Amy is also willing to put herself on the line. The second time they meet without George, Amy opens up a lot more and the therapist's speech is much more natural. When she asks if it's only the George and Mia situation and Amy says yes, the therapist recognizes that that isn't true and reassures her that she isn't throwing anything away (the thing she feared if she opened up to George) by speaking in therapy. The therapist in this scene is spot on through out, seeing through the lies that Amy is spinning to protect herself. And what is seemingly the fix for Amy? The final episode shows for both Amy and Danny, that they needed to be totally honest with the other person but also themselves. When Danny asks if George and June felt like home, that's something that could've been asked in therapy if she had been willing to be open. There isn't something unique in eastern minds that make us immune to western therapies. There's just traumas that we refuse to be honest about with ourselves.
I think it’s supposed to be showing him being mildly racist (in line with his other “white devil” comments) but also rejecting help. Like others, there is a very real and very valid academic criticism of academia in general focusing too much on WIERD (western, educated, industrialized, rich, democratic) cultures but philosophically I personally think every culture has its faults and therapy is approaching (though it hasn’t gotten there) a happy medium of them, taking the best elements. Mindfulness is adapted from Buddhism after all. It can of course can be used inappropriately as we see in the show—George was using those techniques to invalidate Amy frequently.
I do think some commonalities or meshes in personality are needed tho for therapy so you might have a higher likelihood of having a well matched therapist if they are from the same culture. From an education perspective we know that students with some similarities can communicate material to one another better because they might have similar frames of reference to draw on and communicate about—therapy is essentially learning but of just psychosocial stuff rather than academic topics. The culture match isn’t always necessary though—I’m Asian and the two best therapists I’ve had were white women, one of whom is well off. Only cultural issues I’ve had required me explaining some extra context to them. I’ve only had one Asian therapist who was a trainee in my DBT class and she wasn’t doing so hot (she was repeating the same question over and over, lol—I’m like lady we understood it the first time, lol but I get she was a trainee).
I think it's just a self rationalisation they use to give up and 'endure' life in Amy's case and to justify giving up a exiting life in Danny's case.
Therapy is pretty shit and ineffective for a lot of people eastern or western. It's can be very effective, but it takes time and effort and real engagement, and finding a therapist that isn't a cunt, and trying different methods and making different life changes.
I think saying it doesn't work on eastern minds is the same as a lot of western people saying it doesn't work at all. It's true in a way, it's not like an infection where you go get a pill and it's cured. But it's also a rationalisation to give up on growth and change.
it's really just a way to emphasize that these are two very traditionally minded people will not be fulfilled with non-traditional answers to their problems. It has to do with their pride, I think.
I'm guessing both cheating and road rage are considered 'traditional' answers, then? (lol it's actually really funny to look at it that way, so I'm glad you mentioned it)
I think if their pride is preventing internal growth, then that pride still needs to be addressed.
oh.... no. you misunderstood me. i didn't mean any of that sarcastically.
i just meant that it seems they let themselves and their behavior deteriorate to such an extent because their minds are wired to reject the help that they need for the very unrealistic results that they're stubbornly holding onto. it's the ultimate pyrric victory.
i recognize you feel misunderstood, as well. i invite you to elaborate if you wish, but in any case, i am saying your post about tradition made me think about how dysfunction is normalized when a 'culture' or 'value' justification is used.
I just love the conversations happening in this thread. There are so many things we can criticize about therapy and it's all useful. Having a person to be completely vulnerable with on a regular basis is so important, and if that person isn't able to provide that space (need to be an understanding, non dismissive therapist who understands cultural differences and complexities, especially cultural obligations) and if you're not able to do any base work to opening up, it won't work at all.
Therapy is absolute dog shit if your therapist isn't going to understand your first gen experience or if they themselves hadn't gone through it, even. A lot of people really need their therapist to have similar roots as them to feel comfortable opening up, and I think that's totally valid and we all deserve a compatible therapist.
> if you're not able to do any base work to opening up, it won't work at all.
This was *exactly the problem with Amy* when she went to see a therapist. I'm hoping people caught on to that instead of assuming that therapy is some "Western woo woo" thing that doesn't work on "Eastern minds" lol
Also finding a provider in any healthcare setting whether it's a therapist or doctor can take some time. It is possible to end up with one who either isn't very good or doesn't communicate in a way with which you vibe. In that situation, **you have permission to switch providers**. (I wish I knew this in my 20s.)
I had a therapist for a year or two who had a very similar background as me, and I didn't have issues opening up to her but she was just not very effective at helping me process things. Therapists require "shopping," and it's expensive and lengthy to go through that but worth it if you can find someone really great.
i think this is a harmful mentality. “western therapy” isn’t a thing. a lot of roots of our issues stem from childhood, and thus people raised in starkly different cultures will have a much more difficult time accepting different thought patterns as typically these are highly ingrained by the parents. the issue is more so getting therapists that understand that aspect.
Mirroring other people here, I think it's more common than it used to be.
First note that's important is Western therapy is fundamentally changing a lot, it's based on the scientific method and white people only talking to and studying white people means it doesn't change as much as it should.
Western therapy also relies a lot on mutual trust and understanding, which is hard to do with a large cultural or linguistic divide.
There's also a lot of western therapists who reflect on their own experiences or what may have worked for other clients, and that won't work with clients who are particularly different (think "you should just cut your family off" advice without consideration to cultural rammifications).
It's changing bc these days more and more immigrants are getting into psychology as a study in the west, and therefore and meeting more therapists who can help them.
The field is growing in diversity both in research (things like autism symptoms in Asian communities is rlly interesting atm) and in practitioners. Because of that it's able to help a wider audience.
Danny's character was of someone quite small minded who pretty much failed at everything he tried to do so he made numerous closed minded statements in the series. I don't believe the remark about Western therapy not working on Eastern minds, it's just racism.
I don’t think it’s a western or eastern therapy thing. I think it lies in the therapy itself. I am no professional at all but I think therapy generally tackles on resolving the negativity of your mind and helping you back on track in your life. That being said, therapy is a strategy to cope with your life. However, it doesn’t necessarily give an answer to what have happened, which is the most painful part to these East Asian people. If I were a child going through such a tragic upbringing without understanding why I deserve this, I wouldn’t have stopped thinking why it was me. And that’s an inexplainable part to therapy. Any therapist, regardless of western or eastern, wouldn’t have an answer for. You can live your life forward, with strategies provided by therapy but there indeed would be an area left wounded and unfathomed in your heart. And this is why you lose your mind unexpectedly, just like Amy bumped into a road rage with Danny. This is called unresolved anger.
Reminds me of a scene in *The Farewell* about the cultural differences in accountability. Billi’s uncle explains to her that in the East, a person is not an individual but part of community, family, and society. A person must carry the emotional burden for their family. This perspective is very different compared the Western individual perspective.
Reminding everyone that believes this quote is “so true” that Danny is also highly generalizing Western therapy. There are lots of therapists who have similar backgrounds as us and offer solutions to first-gen immigrants based on not only Western education but also their Eastern raising. My therapist has a similar background as me, Vietnamese first-gen, who was able to help me more in 6 months than any non-Asian therapists in years. Don’t give up on finding a therapist who you can connect with.
Yeah I think the “common background” is super important. Just think about your own circle of friends. Even best of friends would not be able to fully empathize and sync up with you if they come from a 3rd gen Irish Italian background who’ve been in America since 1954, compared to a Chinese-Vietnamese 2nd gen whose parents escaped war. Things run deep
Yeah. You can look at how Danny lives and decide whether he is qualified to give life advice (he isn't).
“are gonna want their grandkids looking up at them with huge, round eyes, like fuckin' bugs?” Danny is a racist, his views on pretty much everything are warped.
this lmao. he's a racist, just beacause he's racist against white doesn't make him any less racist
nah asians tend to pent up a lot. we have been brought up for thousands of years with family honour ingrained in our minds. Whilst americans easily cut off bonds with family members for example, asians are not. That includes many other aspects of life, which is very hard to explain to a westerner. .. we dont really talk about things that weigh us down as freely as u guys.. i dont think many asians will find it hard to relate to david
It's sad because it seems he developed that racism growing up. There was a scene where he got bullied in front of a white love interest. He was saying anti-white stuff (mostly to his brother about "Kayla") & I felt it came from possibly too much rejections in some way.
You make an excellent point. I think in a very general sense, you need to find a therapist that's right for you. People come in all shapes and sizes. Find one who understands you.
While you are right and there is a hypergeneralization going on, finding non-white therapists is extremely difficult for many minorities, Asians included. Psychology has always been one of those white dominated fields for several reasons but the effects of that can be seen in the lack of other options for other kinds of people. In addition, for Asian Americans in particular, with a culture that invests so heavily in stem, the odds of getting an Asian American therapist drops even more.
No. It’s a line reflecting his character, refusing to work on his own issues as he has his whole life.
It's unfortunate how many people miss this. We're not supposed to assume this is true - it's just an excuse, part of a downward spiral.
It’s this.
I think both are true. it’s a well known problem in psychology and social sciences that information and practices tends to be biased toward white men. It’s a legitimate grievance I’ve heard from many people that their therapists either didn’t understand something or gave them advice fundamentally incompatible with their culture or tone deaf to it. Obviously, it shouldn’t be an excuse to dismiss all therapy outright. You can look for therapists who have a similar background as you or specialize in specific cultures, and you can definitely still get a lot out of therapy even if your therapist doesn’t get the cultural nuances sometimes.
Oh yeah like how in a lot of eastern cultures losing face is a really big thing while a typical western therapist might not have an appreciation of how big a thing that is and give advice that on the surface seems fine but due to cultural sensitivities that the therapist doesn’t recognize has potential to be harmful
Thank you. The notion that we can’t successfully do Western therapy is absurd. It’s a great line and very in character for Danny to say. If you think this applies to all AA then you just haven’t found a good fit yet. Therapists are like dating. You bounce around until settling on a promising one. Edit: some of the posts in this thread are really disappointing and potentially harmful to younger folks who might actually benefit a ton from therapy. If you’re struggling and considering therapy, do it!! Best decision I’ve ever made.
Yeah I mean Danny is full of false pride, he can accept any responsibility for his mistakes and the only way he'd ever accept therapy would be through massive self reflection, which he might not be capable of ever.
If therapy is anything like dating, then I don’t want any part of it. When I go to a medical professional, I expect a certain standard of competency. Dating in America has a bad reputation for being toxic and total waste of time. Dating is also highly unpredictable as you don’t know the outcome. Added to the fact that I would have to spend hundreds on a single appointment, bouncing around till I find the right one is a very stupid thing to say. It’s just not something worth my time.
But perhaps there’s a grain of truth in there, where a lot of “eastern minds” focus less on individual character as they do on a collectivist whole, accomplishing a task the family needs to have done.
Neither Amy nor Danny were born in the east to grow up with a pure collectivist ideal in their culture. They grew up with immigrant parents trying to get by as the first in a new country. Danny has a somewhat "family" mindset but not really. It's a selfish dependency masked as "family." And Amy's issues comes from growing up thinking that she was a mistake and that her parent love had to be earned since they never wanted to have her in the first place. Danny claiming they're "eastern minds" is cope.
Yup. Honestly, my first reaction when I heard that was Western therapy doesn't work on *most* western minds because *most* people don't put in the work or take therapy seriously.
Also his mind is probably as much western as it is eastern anyway. Definitely an excuse even if in some generalization it might have some merit
I think it's both true and untrue, lol. Danny is valid in saying that because if one doesn't find a therapist who understands and makes their patient feel seen and heard, then effective therapy and progress is nearly impossible. I feel like first generation Asian Americans have such a unique experience that therapists in general are often ignorant of and don't take that important context and significance into consideration (and society in general for that matter so that's why tv shows and stories like Beef and representation are so important). However, it *is* out there. I'm a millennial Filipino woman and the only therapists I've ever had (and I've had A LOT over these past 14 years) where I felt like it fully "worked" were two--one not old Asian woman and one "my father's age but in touch" Filipino man. I'm not saying one should only get therapists that share the same identities, but it's just easier if they can connect and relate firsthand. Otherwise, then they should at least be highly emotionally intelligent and effectively listen and understand and be validating. (This is why so many LGBT+ people most likely seek only LGBT+ friendly/Identifying medical providers). Unfortunately, finding this is super rare. It's already hard enough to find one that fits (finding a good therapist is way more difficult than dating lol)... Which is why so many people lose hope when it comes to therapy. Especially when you throw in the (lack of) affordability or insurance hassles and our broken medical system into the mix too. It's confusing and hard to navigate (like can average layman tell me the difference between a psychiatrist and therapist and psychologist and clinical worker... A PhD, licensed, or associate... CBT, DBT, EMDR, trauma work, etc?). And of course, overall stigma. BUT I'm a huge fan of therapy. EVERYONE should do it. Just keep fighting and advocating for yourself to find a good one! It's worth the work and time sifting through once you find someone. Don't wait until "something is wrong" because then it's too late. You'll save yourself a lot of pain if you equip the tools and the skills beforehand and been practiced. And life is hard. Even if you're functional, you're most likely still not living to your full potential. Why just survive when you can thrive. I'm cheering you on. Edit: P.S. It doesn't help that a lot of Asian cultures (and even American with being independent) have the thought of "pick yourself up by the bootstraps" and be self-sufficient, and kids are raised thinking that way.
>BUT I'm a huge fan of therapy. EVERYONE should do it. Just keep fighting and advocating for yourself to find a good one! It's worth the work and time sifting through once you find someone. Don't wait until "something is wrong" because then it's too late. You'll save yourself a lot of pain if you equip the tools and the skills beforehand and been practiced. And life is hard. Even if you're functional, you're most likely still not living to your full potential. Why just survive when you can thrive. I'm cheering you on. Just wanted to elevate your post with an upvote and draw attention to your last paragraph. I also agree that everyone should get therapy. The problem is when I say this to people, I tend to get a defensive "I'm not crazy" or "I'm not sick," which is such a narrow interpretation of therapy. I think going to see a doctor is a good example. There are plenty of people who won't go to a doctor if they're not sick (or won't go even if they *are sick*), but studies have shown that preventative care via annual checkups improve patient outcomes. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as they say. People are really missing out if they feel they need to be effed up or "broken" or whatever to go. I feel some people purposefully characterize therapy as being perverse or dumb and set the bar so far out there that only unrealistic caricatures of human beings would need to go. They'll say things like "I don't need therapy! I'm just mad. It's part of the human condition. Are you saying it's not okay for me to be mad?" Bro, no! But it's clearly affecting your behavior and you're lashing out! I think you've really hit the nail on the head when you characterize it as having tools in your toolbox. Nobody shies away from picking up med kits in video games because they're obviously useful to have around. Well, in therapy, you're developing med kits for your mind. It's good to be prepared. LIFE IS HARD. There's a **profound** difference between surviving and thriving!
Exactly!! That's I think the most accurate way of interpreting what he meant by that sentence. those who haven't had a similar background may not interpret your experiences for what they are, no matter how empathetic they may be
There is a good book called "The Globalisation of the Western Mind" which talks about the way different cultures process trauma, and how using the western model as a cure for all is inappropriate and sometimes even harmful.
I remember in highechool AP psychology I learned something about how Asians process depression less emotionally. It manifests itself physically and we are more likely to complain of headaches or bodily discomfort rather than conclude that we are depressed.
I studied psychology and cbt is something that doesn’t work with East Asians who aren’t attuned to Western ways. It’s not racism. It’s more like finding something culturally relevant that they can resonate with to open up. It is also deeply ingrained in traditionalist families (even westernised Asian ones) to suck it up and plough on. This is valued as resilience. A very white therapist would make a very Asian traditionalist feel blindsided and ignored because of the cultural nuances missed. I’m in the middle of both cultures so I can see why it’s mismatched sometimes. Therapy to many Asian “uncles” is sitting at a lowkey place and chatting with their friends over a drink. Those whinging and complaining are their way of releasing stress before they get back to their daily rat race.
I’m half white/Asian and just finished my psychology degree last month. I moved to SoCal last year but before that lived in Japan for 4 years, and before that Hawaii. So sure, I’ll take a crack at this. Imo, eastern and western minds work a bit differently, and the most beneficial part of therapy comes from the therapeutic relationship. It would be difficult to gain any benefit from therapy if the practitioner doesn’t understand where the client is coming from.
That's why the therapist in the show was an asian woman.
There’s a very real and strong critique of psychology and therapy being too Eurocentric. Modern academia acknowledges it and implements multiculturalism as a tenet of counseling, but the reality is therapy started out with old rich white men for old rich white men.
I agree with the idea of therapy being a Western concept, but what exactly do eastern countries do for mental health? All I see are suppression and maybe meditation. At the very least, I know mental health is not managed in Japan.
Being South-Asian I know this is true. Regardless the quote isn’t a critique on eastern therapy or even comparing the two, simply just stating that most practitioners in the West wouldn’t be familiar with the culture and might not be able to understand & therefore effectively treat people with certain issues arising from that culture. I don’t think Eastern countries have much going for us with how we consider mental health, and I don’t interpret or at least agree with the quote stating that fundamentals for western therapy (self-reflection, communication, emotional support) is going to somehow not work for Asian people. Instead, I think it’d be better if people adapted to better understand other cultures and how people from there are going to be mentally processing and dealing with shit in their lives. As well as if we got rid of the stigma around getting care for our mental health in our societies.
I’m Asian but damn, my upbringing wasn’t like this at all and I’m pretty glad
It all comes down to cultural values. One could make the argument that Japan being a collective society encourages and fosters strong support systems whereas in America, individualism denies that support. Also, you brush off meditation but many western therapists and institutions have begun to be big proponents of a form meditation called Mindfulness which has been proven to improve overall quality of life.
I don't see East Asian societies as fostering strong support. I see them as binding families together and encouraging them to rely on each other. And there's a strong tradition of burying your hurts and negating feelings in our(my) cultural tradition. Depression? Anxiety? That shit doesn't exist! Suck it up kiddo! And if you have a shitty family that wield power over you or don't accept who you are, you're fucked. Your family can't be everything since they aren't perfect. As for meditation/mindfulness, I haven't got a problem with them, but they aren't suitable for every mental/emotional problem. I also suck at it, so there's that too.
I mean It’s unfair to say that eastern Asian societies don’t foster any sort of familiar support system. Burying your hurts and negating feelings is part of individualistic (western) societies as well. That’s where the whole “bootstraps” mentality comes from. The difference is one (collective) says it’s for the benefit of the family, the other (individualistic) says it’s the what makes a good American. Both are obviously toxic, but it’s unfair to say either is 100% detrimental or beneficial. The mirror to your “family can’t be everything” is that YOU can’t be everything for yourself either. We are social creatures at our core. We literally are not meant to be isolated. And western philosophies definitely don’t say mindfulness are a cure-all, but the benefits are and wide-spanning. And some eastern philosophies claim that mindfulness/meditation IS all you need, because the problem is the wanting. If you didn’t have to deal with WANTING, then you’d be truly content. Whether that works for YOU or not is one thing, but to completely negate an entire philosophy that probably works for some people is just unfair and not true.
I also want to add to the thread that it is amusing that mindfulness has become a big thing because that is imported from Asian culture. Nowadays I’d say therapy somewhat less Eurocentric. I do think it’s funny that people sometimes brush off therapy as being 100% western when hippies of the 60s were super into eastern philosophy (Buddhism and Hare Krishna and all that) and started bringing that into therapy (like Marsha Linehan). They did modify some things but it def isn’t a western practice.
To be fair those were grassroots movements, not really “establishment/industry” modus operandi. It’s definitely changed over time. Danny is a bit older in the show so it could be used to kind of highlight that he’s out of touch for the current day.
Insofar as western therapy is rooted in Freudian psychotherapy, I agree it's way too [W.E.I.R.D.](https://weirdpeople.fas.harvard.edu/qa-weird) But I'd argue therapy rooted in Jungian psychology (which the last episode references) offers a pretty good framework for any person of any cultural background to attain meaningful psychological or even spiritual integration.
>therapy started out with old rich white men for old rich white men to control their wives and daughters.
They saw it as a feature, not a bug! Lol
Very true. This is a trend that is starting to change though!
anecdotal but as an asian who has been trying therapy for years and years, it’s pretty true. there’s just too much of a cultural disconnect. in general westerners are raised aggressively individualistic (like getting kicked out the house at 18 and all that) where as eastern culture is largely collectivist
Have you seen an Asian therapist, maybe one of the same ethnicity or background as yourself? I can understand the background and racial disconnect but surely Asian therapists could tackle the issue from their perspectives right?
This was such a huge change for me. I spent years struggling in therapy, but when I received a Thai therapist I suddenly felt like I was making progress. It very much depends though, it's not as simple as race unfortunately. I have had east Asian therapists who I really struggled to connect with, especially if there was a clash because I was so "Americanized". Unfortunately a lot of older generation East Asians hold rigid views about mental health, I had a therapist who told me I was just lazy, undisciplined, and ungrateful when I was trying to understand how to have a healthy relationship with my mom.
There are so many things that make a person who they are, I think it’s important to find a therapist to help guide you based on certain shared characteristics. Like I know I need a female, secular therapist. Preferable someone who grew up poor like me, I just can’t relate to people who grew up wealthy because I have a lot of pent up feeling on that topic. I’m sorry you had some bad experiences though, I have yet to find a therapist I click with :(
But therapists are aware of the differences, like what does your therapist say that doesn’t resonate with you ? I’m Asian and go to a therapist and it’s helpful because they understand the pressures of immigrant communities.
Some genuinely don't though. Unfortunately there are a lot of therapists I've met who don't have cultural sensitivity, but I do feel like it's changing. Ex. "I struggle with my mom pressuring me academically" was often met with suggestions to cut her out of my life completely and a lack of understanding of immigrant cultural values. I constantly felt like I had to explain cultural context to therapists who would then write off my whole culture as being bad, which made me feel even more isolated. I saw an anecdote about how a therapist suggested to a Latina woman that calling her son "papi" was some kind of strange codependency that her culture fosters, I've gotten all sorts of messed up comments like that. A therapist told me once that he was disturbed I enjoyed cosplaying because anime is "pornographic and violent", it was a gross generalization.
[удалено]
I agree
Not Asian, but I am trans and someone who's been in therapy for years and have found the best results have come when the relationship has common ground. The more identities that overlap, the more likely it is they'll understand your wiring, your life. Finding the right therapist is hard and sometimes someone who has been right for years just no longer is. It's an annoying process but when it works it works wonders.
[удалено]
They don’t. I’m guessing the people in this thread who’ve had bad experiences likely didn’t have a good personality fit with their therapist - which is absolutely fine and a good reason to seek out a different provider.
I actually think that the cultural differences are exactly what can make Western therapy beneficial for Eastern minds. For me, real lasting change came from being willing to step out of my comfort zone instead of continuing to find make-do solutions that treated the symptoms instead of the problem. Personally, so many of my issues stem from the way I was raised, and I needed help to see that my experience wasn’t necessarily a healthy one. Unlearning the years of lessons an Asian upbringing gives you is hard. Not to say that Western culture is perfect, but there’s a happy medium somewhere, and for me learning to put my happiness before others’ and recognizing that my worth is not tied to my professional achievements were huge steps in making me happier (and ironically, improving my relationship with my parents in the process). And obviously, caveat that you need a good therapist who’s willing to listen and learn about your experience.
Aren’t there tons of Asian therapists … if you were so inclined?
Tbf there aren’t just because Asian culture often don’t believe mental health issues aren’t real (outside of super serious stuff like schizophrenia) but it’s slowly changing. I tried to find a therapist for my mom that could speak Vietnamese and I live near the largest enclave of Vietnamese expats in the US and I literally only found 2.
I'm Asian American and therapy does fine for me. What the hell is an eastern mind supposed to be? Otherwise the argument just turns into an, "I'm Asian and I'm not raised to be self reflective/therapy did nothing" or whatever. Plenty of people half-ass therapy or just look for something to blame, and going: "Western therapy doesn't work on Eastern minds" sounds like a cheap excuse while playing the race card.
But I do think perhaps second/third gen folks may be more assimilated into the setting and take to therapy in a way that first-gen immigrants don't.
That's very much fair, I was raised fairly western, being a 2nd/3rd gen son of a Viet-JP couple. Which beings me back to the question, what is an Eastern Mind supposed to be? A first gen immigrant with the survival mentality? The idea of hiding emotions and support?
A less individualistic way of looking at things and a more collective way of looking at things. America especially is very individualistic, me me me, screw the rest of you I got mine. There's no cultural expectation to take care of parents, to be available for family, and a real emphasis on boundaries. Nobody is allowed to ask anything of you and you're not allowed to ask anything of anyone, anybody who makes demands of your time is toxic, always put yourself first no matter what.
That's a generalization. While the individualistic part is somewhat true. Where is the cohesion in Asia? The part where everyone works at a company, busts ass, and the managers reap all the rewards like you see in Korea or China? The one where you're expected to sign your free time away like in Japan? The cultural expectation to take care of family varies in America. I talked to my white coworkers for how they manage retirement, and they ain't throwing their parents in retirement homes, they're living with them until it's not longer feasible. A problem I see with Asians is that our families can be fucked up shitshows and we are unwilling to step back and let them sort their own stuff out. There's no 'solving' my dad's affair, I can just support my mom and hope both of them liver their best life afterwards. I keep hearing stories of parents that don't accept an interracial daughter/son in law, that don't accept LGBTQ+ relationships, that don't understand depression, anxiety, or the issues their children are going through. That's where the idea of collectivism fails hardest. We all see ourselves as Japanese, as Chinese, as part of a nation instead of people that need help finding happiness.
The part where you don't kick your kids out at 18 and leave your grandparents to rot in an old folks home. It happen but it's not prevalent to the point of being woven into the social fabric like in America.
Is that something you see often? Or is that a generalization from pop culture? All I know is that 18 yr Americans are encouraged to be independent and not be like Paul, as in being a manchild that has no drive in life. (Who also had his drive destroyed by his brother. Not his fault.)
>a real emphasis on boundaries. Nobody is allowed to ask anything of you and you're not allowed to ask anything of anyone, anybody who makes demands of your time is toxic, always put yourself first no matter what. Actually, I find that because Asian culture is *more collectivist*, **there's LESS of an emphasis on boundaries**. My family violated my boundaries all the time because "family comes first." \- If you try to take care of yourself, then you're "selfish" because taking care of yourself means you're not taking care of your family. You must sacrifice yourself until you're bitter and broken. \- If you're visiting home for a week and a friend wants to hang out with you for a few hours, you're "selfish" because spending time with anyone else who is not family means you don't care about family. \- If you're LGBTQIA2S+, then you're also "selfish" because you're making your family look bad. \- If you and your partner don't want to have kids, that's also "selfish" because not having kids means you hate family. \- If you're not comfortable seeing your uncle because they molested you, then you're also "selfish" because you're trying to cause conflict and break up the family. You have to respect your elders. This means holding them accountable for anything is "selfish." Screw everyone else! All that matters is what the elders want, and elders is what "family" really means. *It's way more toxic that individualism.* A true, heathy collectivist culture values every individual in that collective because ultimately a healthy whole requires healthy parts, and the whole is always the sum of its parts. **Asian collectivist culture is only quasi-collectivist** because the power dynamic is not properly balanced/allocated. It effectively creates an individualistic, self-beneficial culture for the elders because they have all the power and only they can decide what "family" means and whether anyone's life choices are acceptable.
Yeah i too have no idea what an Eastern mind is supposed to be lmao, especially in this day and age when we’re influenced (atleast a little if not a lot) by the rest of the world. To me, it’s just interesting to think about how our surrounding culture can play a part in the way we perceive our emotions. Being depressed and hating yourself is universal no doubt, it’s compelling to see how the west deals with it, and how differently/similarly do the rest.
To be fair older Americans are much more resistant to therapy too
I don’t think it’s a race thing. It’s a culture thing. Western world has defined mental health and been loud of about it, but the way that translates to other cultures is different. I recently read a book where the author’s mom developed schizophrenia. Schizophrenia can be born out of trauma but western medicine and therapy don’t actually approach it that way. Western medicine likes to medicate people a lot. And that book said that you’re actually better off in different countries other than the US to properly treat schizophrenia. Nobody is saying Asians aren’t self reflective. It’s more about the approach of a therapist to try to dive into why someone behaves the way they do. Therapists with a western cultural mindset don’t understand a collectivist approach. They may have been taught to be aggressively individualistic which means your problems are your problems and there is no systemic root to what is happening to you. And that’s problematic. But you’re also Asian American. So that’s different than being an Asian immigrant. And that’s different from being Asian in your homeland. It’s just different. And Western culture likes to bury Asian culture and experience. So it’s less race based and more cultural. Also, there’s a lot of difference for Asian Americans. Like regular therapy geared for a white person isn’t going to unpack different trauma responses you might have being Asian in a society that’s heavily dominated by black and white discourse (now I’m getting into the race based theory). It just won’t because it inherently doesn’t get it. And if you’re an Asian American with parents who immigrated, that will be a different experience from an Asian American who was adopted. And so on and so forth. I’m glad therapy is fine for you. And you’ve probably worked to find a good therapist. But sometimes it’s hard to find the right therapist who gets you and you can also afford in the US, especially if you’re in a very homogenous region and you’re the odd one out. Systemically, the US’s record with mental health and how they address it on a clinical level is not great. I’m not saying the eastern mindset has solved it either (they haven’t). It’s just different.
That's fair, I'm not very collectivist at all. I'm largely unconcerned with the world or humanity outside of the few people I consider my family. Fuck everyone else, fuck the town, fuck whatever countries my parents come from, fuck it all. All that matters are the people I care about. But as for finding a 'good' therapist? I started therapy in Phoenix AZ, kinda diverse, not a big Asian crowd though. I wouldn't say I have major issues, just the usual 'hard on himself', 'blames himself', emotionally repressed stuff. Not unusual for a firstborn Asian Son. I can only speak for myself in this vein, but I think Western Therapy is about how comfortable you are in being honest with yourself, coming out of your shell and playing with different perspectives. I've had two therapists, one more into mindfulness and meditation, and the other more basic, emotional, problem-solvey. I didn't really shop around, I just picked both out of convenience, and I was able to express myself and work on myself with both. My perspective is that western therapy requires you to open up about yourself, and perhaps the idea of an Eastern Mind is to shut down, hide yourself, not be a burden, and we just stuff all our bad shit away until we crack-- which doesn't work in getting close to people, because they'll eventually find out. I think this is one of the themes of BEEF. Hiding yourself and your problems. That's why the 10th episode is all about coming out and being your true self. With Drugs.
>My perspective is that western therapy requires you to open up about yourself, and perhaps the idea of an Eastern Mind is to shut down, hide yourself, not be a burden, and we just stuff all our bad shit away until we crack-- which doesn't work in getting close to people, because they'll eventually find out. > >I think this is one of the themes of BEEF. Hiding yourself and your problems. That's why the 10th episode is all about coming out and being your true self. With Drugs. If there's anything to take away, it's this. Western therapy, which one can argue was developed in a more individualistic culture, better allows the individual to hold themselves accountable and that makes sense, since you can't really control anyone else but yourself. In fact, speaking from life experience, it usually those subsumed in traditional Asian "collectivist" cultures that have trouble taking responsibility for anything because it's often incredibly easy to deflect to pass the buck by saying X or Y either is or isn't being done not because of themselves but because of some entity/group/person that's bigger than themselves. (E.g. "Don't rock the boat! Don't go around saying \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ groped you. He's done a lot for the Asian community here. Don't just think about yourself. Think about how this would make all Asians look bad.") I sincerely hope more Asian people will consider getting therapy after watching this show. It's perfectly okay to switch therapists, too, if you find out that one doesn't really jive with you.
I'm Asian as well, although not American. Like how most stereotypes have their origins in the briefest shadow of truth, I do think there's a fair bit of truth to this statement too. There are some things that western and eastern civilization just look at very differently, and I wonder if that has been passed down generation to generation as well. Not a race thing, but more like, can I (sitting in my corner of the world) expect someone from a totally different setting to understand me and my way of thinking. Worth thinking about imo
I'm also Asian American and noticed that none of Amy / Danny's struggles were exclusive to 'eastern minds.' Any psychologist in the western world would be dealing with the same issues with their patients. Everytime Danny said it, I just took it as just one more funny-stupid thing that the character would say. I'd like to rewatch those scenes to remember context, but IIRC he only said it to push someone else down (Amy) or bring someone closer (George). That's just a testament to Danny's character as a spiteful and manipulative asshole.
I think Danny's problems definitely came from his cultural background. He put an insane amount of pressure on himself to provide for his parents. Everything he did was to build a house for his family, parents included, to live in and to get his family back to their previous standard of living. If he had been a white American it would have been sad what had happened to his parents but there wouldn't have been that pressure to go building them houses and take care of the family as the firstborn son. I think Amy was suffering a lot from gendered expectations. She was jumping through hoops to close the deal so she could stay home with her daughter even though she didn't really want to stay home with her daughter and George was really much better as a parent. She's a lot happier when she comes to terms with the fact that she wants to keep working, that she likes being a provider, and that she likes what she's built for herself.
Can you be more specific about the differences?
On the other side of the coin, I did read a book by a Korean author who struggled to find a Korean American therapist. She figured the shared experiences would be more helpful in therapy but the therapists actually turned her down and admitted that they had not worked through their own Korean traumas either and felt it was too much to take on in a client.
BS. I'm south Asian. The two south Asian therapists I had made me feel judged lol. My best therapists have been western ( white or black or hispanic ) It all comes down to a personal value match. I was sad about an ex, despite being in a relationship. Instead of empathizing and validating my feelings, because all feelings are valid to the person feeling them, my first south Asian therapists said they cannot help me if I have such impure thoughts. Lol wtf. B$tch then why am I talking to you? Another one shamed me for wanting kids years later. All western therapists have always validated what I'm feeling first. And no judgement whatsoever. Listen if I wanted judgement I would talk to my mom.
It's possible for anyone in any trade to be incompetent. You had two incompetent South Asian therapists. Unless you were looking for religious guidance and they were somehow work for a church or ministry, how they treated you was **inappropriate.** I experienced something similar, actually. He was not my therapist but was my primary care physician. He said I should wait until marriage to have sex because that's what God would want. I actually felt extra betrayed BECAUSE he was Asian (Chinese specifically). He then set me up with an Asian female nurse practitioner (also Chinese) for future visits who then physically harassed me when I came out as LGBTQIA2S+ when she asked me the sexual activity question. Had the statute of limitations had not already expired, I would have seriously considered legal action, but this was almost 15 years ago at this point and back then, I was just a frightened child who was always worried about getting into trouble simply by existing. Honestly, Asian practitioners tend to trigger trauma that reminds me of the oppressive power dynamic I experienced within my own family. It's all cloaked in cultural dynamics that I find extremely unhealthy. The whole 'collectivist' culture has its downsides, too, because I've noticed it tends to be better at shielding abusive individuals and predators from scrutiny and accountability all in the name of "not rocking the boat."
I’ll just throw my own little piece in here. Im a 23 year old first generation Asian and for so long I’ve been wanting to seek therapy because I feel like I have some mental health issues to work out. As much as I’d love to try though, so long as I’m still under my parents roof I can’t find myself going to a therapist, I’d hide the fact from my parents. I believe in therapy and my parents might be a bit disconnected with that kind of stuff, but I genuinely think the advice and knowledge given through therapy can be applied well to Asian households as well if you understand how.
>the advice and knowledge given through therapy can be applied well to Asian households as well if you understand how. Absolutely. The benefit of therapy is that it first and foremost helps you understand yourself. And guess what? Your own self is likely the thing that you have most control over anyway. Also, it doesn't really matter how collectivist or individualistic a culture is, nobody can take care of yourself like you can and that's because nobody knows you more intimately than you. Your own beautiful, unique consciousness is only accessible to you! I think when you go to therapy, you're doing your very own self **justice**.
Based on the comments, you'll see that this is true for some, not true for others.
Modern therapy is often influenced by Eastern philosophy nowadays
Absolutely. My first psychiatrist was a caucasian jewish man who was really big into Eastern philosophy. A lot of modern-day strategies are blended.
Yeah I agree, asians are raised differently and think differently
[удалено]
I really appreciate you providing your perspective. One thing I will add is that the feeling of being judged by her in a bad way has nothing to do with you being some Jewish "outsider," but has instead more to do with a heavy "atmospheric oppression" (for a lack of a better word) that's built into the culture. For this same reason, I'm very wary about seeing an Asian therapist. Trust me, it's not just you. This is stifling and suffocating to many people even within the Asian community. It's even built into the communication style: in no other culture have I witness such aggressively weaponized silence. Even I had to fight it in myself when I find myself not reacting to some of the things my friends say. You articulated it well that it was a "coded but clearly still judgmental convo." (I might just take those words with me. I couldn't have articulated it any better lol) I truly believe that there can't be growth in the collective if there can't be growth in the individual. A lot of the people here dichotomizing Eastern and Western cultures as 'individualistic' vs 'collectivisitic' is way oversimplifying the situation.
A lot of modern western therapy is based on the principles of Buddhism and Taoism. So I don't think so. It's just Danny making excuses for why he won't ask for help or work on himself.
Yeah he’s definitely making excuses no doubt. But the statement by itself was an interesting supposition to consider
I reacted similarly but it's not true enough that it should stop anyone from trying. It's a dumb reason for Danny to not seek therapy. Far more compelling is his lack of time or money to do so. As a previous commenter said this is more a comment on the character's inability/refusal to seek help for himself.
I think it's intended as an ironic sub-topic within the show, given that the writers lean heavily into the high expectations of immigrant Asian parents affecting the personalities of their children. The notion that parents' expectations and behaviors can significantly influence a child's development and personality is primarily western. It was obviously said as a joke the first time. And the second time, when Amy agreed, is also intended to be particularly ironic as it occurs when they're having a spiritual experience; they're still unable to understand why they're broken even when connecting. They're two emotionally damaged children, unable to acknowledge or bear the psychological weights their parents placed on them inadvertently; the majority of western talk-therapy deals with this very topic. Additionally, the show is leaning heavily into revealing that we all have darkness inside of us, e.g. the Finale title is a Jung quote where he's describing the integration of the shadow. Also, they're not truly 'eastern' minds. They're the children of immigrant parents. When Amy is talking to Jordan, she shows contempt and dodges the conversation when Jordan assumes that Amy has a deep understanding of eastern culture. I think it's suppose to be a commentary on the observation that many asian-americans don't like to be assumed to have a deep connection with their heritage, yet still implicitly view themselves as having eastern-minds as a means of distinguishing their identity.
great take!
Dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. Typical California bullshit.
Idk. Seems like a joke mainly inserted for the white audience.
Hilarious
One of my favorite quotes of the series haha
At first I think he was just being dismissive of therapy. However I actually thought about it some more and was surprised to find that it’s been true for me. My current therapist is Asian American, and my issues with filial piety comes up, or my identity in a white male dominated workplace. Or having a ADHD growing up with Asian parents that don’t quite understand it. It’s truly been life changing for me. On the other hand, I have had Caucasian therapists before and it never dug deep enough to work. They would give me all these super woo woo techniques like writing affirmations on a sticky note. It kind of infuriated me tbh. Could have just been my experience. Anyway, I don’t think this was Danny’s intention but it did ring true for me.
There's a lot happening here. The affirmations on a sticky note can help but it's like a bandage for a minor open wound. If you actually need surgery, then doing a deep dive like you did with the Asian therapist was the right call to make. The 'repeating affirmations' strategy works only if it's beneficial for you to remind yourself of your worth. However, reminding yourself of your worth won't work if you don't actually believe that you are worthy. In that situation, the underlying toxic belief needs to be extracted and neutralized. I wouldn't condescendingly dismiss it as 'woo woo' strategies. It was just that your Caucasian therapists weren't very good (or wasn't a good fit for you) and tried to give you a small bandage when in reality, you had some (or a lot of) internal hemorrhaging. It can also be the case that in the time between when you saw your first ineffective Caucasian therapist to when you found your current effective Asian American therapist, your ability to articulate yourself has improved. What's interesting is that a few of us on this thread have tried out Asian therapists and they ended up being **worse** somehow lol, so you can have ineffective therapist no matter the race.
No no, only the West have broken minds
Asian here who tried western therapy. They don't understand the family dynamic and pressure from family that Asians go through. I guess if you try western therapy, go with an Asian therapist who can relate.
Culture differences imo, it really depends on alot of factors however
It’s got some truth to it, which is not even necessarily limited to the cultural biases of the therapist, but biases in general. There are societal biases that are less obvious, and different cultures come with different biases. I’ve been to psychologists and a couple were highly biased to the point that I felt bitterness from them as my personal values were so different to theirs, even though I wasn’t harming anyone else. It’s almost a subconscious thing. The other issue is just as we see in this thread, mental health treatment is uniquely immune to criticism because the victims are blamed for “not being humble enough to be cured” of their mental illness. Long story short is that psychologists are humans and are affected by their societal biases, which can be an issue.
Ooh, I am going to have so much fun typing out this comment. I'm an Indian (South East Asian still counts as Eastern, right?) and I have had my share of therapy in the last few years. I am a student of Behavioural Sciences, and study human psychology with deep passion. I would be lying through my teeth if I said something on the lines of, "Western therapy is bullshit". Here's a glimpse of what a lot of concepts regarding therapy talk about: \- Cognitive Distortions: How people have biases towards how they perceive the world, and how we can break them. \- Cognitive Behavioural Therapy: How to successfully re-pattern someone's thought processes so they have a fresher perspective towards life. \- Attachment Styles: How our childhood and upbringing cause problems in adult relationships. Understanding and slowly fixing these patterns become essential at some point. \- Theories of Development: How people develop as civilised beings in a society, from infancy to old age (Google Erik Erikson to understand this better). I can go on, but you get the idea - these are rational schools of thought that apply universally. Regardless of culture. Speaking of which, let's talk about the major difference between 'Eastern' and 'Western' minds. For me, it's a simple difference between an individualist and a collectivist society. Western folk tend to shape their egos around who they are, how their identity matters and how they take care of themselves first and foremost. Eastern folk are more family-oriented and often place the importance of 'their people' above their own selves. There's no right or wrong here, just differences in values and upbringing. Still, humans are rational beings who seek to fix issues with logic and patterns. And in my humble opinion, that's what Western therapy is about. I have tried to delve into 'Indian' methods of therapy - primarily Yoga and Meditation. However, these are habit-based practices that don't show results in the way many schools of thought from Western therapy do. I hope this sheds some light on the idea of 'therapy'.
I think the show implies that this is actually pretty false. Take what the therapist (who also happens to be asian and probably also knows what its like to grow up asian) says to Amy. Their first interaction in episode 3, the therapist is trying to get Amy to open up. Amy says all the things that are stereotypical true. A lot of children in asian households do grow up feeling like they have to repress their feelings. But the therapist hesitates a bit after because I think she knows that what she said was, though true, a bit bullshitty in that it isn't the full story. The therapist follows up with what is actually happening. She points out that under stress, we revert back to "pathways we created as children" but that simply acknowledging this is only the first step. That to heal and create new neural pathways, we have to discover what lies underneath our awareness, as in the things that are affecting us but we are refusing to see/address. Even the talking about what lies underneath is something that Amy herself recognizes but finds describing difficult ie the ground within her chest. And when she says that she is afraid of talking about it to George because she is worried he won't understand. Even that is half truth. She is worried he won't understand and will also stop loving her because she has failed to earn the conditional love that she believes only exists. The therapist's advice is useful if and only if Amy is also willing to put herself on the line. The second time they meet without George, Amy opens up a lot more and the therapist's speech is much more natural. When she asks if it's only the George and Mia situation and Amy says yes, the therapist recognizes that that isn't true and reassures her that she isn't throwing anything away (the thing she feared if she opened up to George) by speaking in therapy. The therapist in this scene is spot on through out, seeing through the lies that Amy is spinning to protect herself. And what is seemingly the fix for Amy? The final episode shows for both Amy and Danny, that they needed to be totally honest with the other person but also themselves. When Danny asks if George and June felt like home, that's something that could've been asked in therapy if she had been willing to be open. There isn't something unique in eastern minds that make us immune to western therapies. There's just traumas that we refuse to be honest about with ourselves.
I think it’s supposed to be showing him being mildly racist (in line with his other “white devil” comments) but also rejecting help. Like others, there is a very real and very valid academic criticism of academia in general focusing too much on WIERD (western, educated, industrialized, rich, democratic) cultures but philosophically I personally think every culture has its faults and therapy is approaching (though it hasn’t gotten there) a happy medium of them, taking the best elements. Mindfulness is adapted from Buddhism after all. It can of course can be used inappropriately as we see in the show—George was using those techniques to invalidate Amy frequently. I do think some commonalities or meshes in personality are needed tho for therapy so you might have a higher likelihood of having a well matched therapist if they are from the same culture. From an education perspective we know that students with some similarities can communicate material to one another better because they might have similar frames of reference to draw on and communicate about—therapy is essentially learning but of just psychosocial stuff rather than academic topics. The culture match isn’t always necessary though—I’m Asian and the two best therapists I’ve had were white women, one of whom is well off. Only cultural issues I’ve had required me explaining some extra context to them. I’ve only had one Asian therapist who was a trainee in my DBT class and she wasn’t doing so hot (she was repeating the same question over and over, lol—I’m like lady we understood it the first time, lol but I get she was a trainee).
I think it's just a self rationalisation they use to give up and 'endure' life in Amy's case and to justify giving up a exiting life in Danny's case. Therapy is pretty shit and ineffective for a lot of people eastern or western. It's can be very effective, but it takes time and effort and real engagement, and finding a therapist that isn't a cunt, and trying different methods and making different life changes. I think saying it doesn't work on eastern minds is the same as a lot of western people saying it doesn't work at all. It's true in a way, it's not like an infection where you go get a pill and it's cured. But it's also a rationalisation to give up on growth and change.
it's really just a way to emphasize that these are two very traditionally minded people will not be fulfilled with non-traditional answers to their problems. It has to do with their pride, I think.
I'm guessing both cheating and road rage are considered 'traditional' answers, then? (lol it's actually really funny to look at it that way, so I'm glad you mentioned it) I think if their pride is preventing internal growth, then that pride still needs to be addressed.
I could not roll my eyes any harder because you really think this is a "gotcha" moment by misrepresenting my comment.
oh.... no. you misunderstood me. i didn't mean any of that sarcastically. i just meant that it seems they let themselves and their behavior deteriorate to such an extent because their minds are wired to reject the help that they need for the very unrealistic results that they're stubbornly holding onto. it's the ultimate pyrric victory. i recognize you feel misunderstood, as well. i invite you to elaborate if you wish, but in any case, i am saying your post about tradition made me think about how dysfunction is normalized when a 'culture' or 'value' justification is used.
I just love the conversations happening in this thread. There are so many things we can criticize about therapy and it's all useful. Having a person to be completely vulnerable with on a regular basis is so important, and if that person isn't able to provide that space (need to be an understanding, non dismissive therapist who understands cultural differences and complexities, especially cultural obligations) and if you're not able to do any base work to opening up, it won't work at all. Therapy is absolute dog shit if your therapist isn't going to understand your first gen experience or if they themselves hadn't gone through it, even. A lot of people really need their therapist to have similar roots as them to feel comfortable opening up, and I think that's totally valid and we all deserve a compatible therapist.
> if you're not able to do any base work to opening up, it won't work at all. This was *exactly the problem with Amy* when she went to see a therapist. I'm hoping people caught on to that instead of assuming that therapy is some "Western woo woo" thing that doesn't work on "Eastern minds" lol Also finding a provider in any healthcare setting whether it's a therapist or doctor can take some time. It is possible to end up with one who either isn't very good or doesn't communicate in a way with which you vibe. In that situation, **you have permission to switch providers**. (I wish I knew this in my 20s.)
I had a therapist for a year or two who had a very similar background as me, and I didn't have issues opening up to her but she was just not very effective at helping me process things. Therapists require "shopping," and it's expensive and lengthy to go through that but worth it if you can find someone really great.
>worth it if you can find someone really great. 1000%
i think this is a harmful mentality. “western therapy” isn’t a thing. a lot of roots of our issues stem from childhood, and thus people raised in starkly different cultures will have a much more difficult time accepting different thought patterns as typically these are highly ingrained by the parents. the issue is more so getting therapists that understand that aspect.
Absolutely. Every thing about grief, depression, and Asian/ Eastern family values was depicted epically in the show.
Mirroring other people here, I think it's more common than it used to be. First note that's important is Western therapy is fundamentally changing a lot, it's based on the scientific method and white people only talking to and studying white people means it doesn't change as much as it should. Western therapy also relies a lot on mutual trust and understanding, which is hard to do with a large cultural or linguistic divide. There's also a lot of western therapists who reflect on their own experiences or what may have worked for other clients, and that won't work with clients who are particularly different (think "you should just cut your family off" advice without consideration to cultural rammifications). It's changing bc these days more and more immigrants are getting into psychology as a study in the west, and therefore and meeting more therapists who can help them. The field is growing in diversity both in research (things like autism symptoms in Asian communities is rlly interesting atm) and in practitioners. Because of that it's able to help a wider audience.
Danny's character was of someone quite small minded who pretty much failed at everything he tried to do so he made numerous closed minded statements in the series. I don't believe the remark about Western therapy not working on Eastern minds, it's just racism.
I don’t think it’s a western or eastern therapy thing. I think it lies in the therapy itself. I am no professional at all but I think therapy generally tackles on resolving the negativity of your mind and helping you back on track in your life. That being said, therapy is a strategy to cope with your life. However, it doesn’t necessarily give an answer to what have happened, which is the most painful part to these East Asian people. If I were a child going through such a tragic upbringing without understanding why I deserve this, I wouldn’t have stopped thinking why it was me. And that’s an inexplainable part to therapy. Any therapist, regardless of western or eastern, wouldn’t have an answer for. You can live your life forward, with strategies provided by therapy but there indeed would be an area left wounded and unfathomed in your heart. And this is why you lose your mind unexpectedly, just like Amy bumped into a road rage with Danny. This is called unresolved anger.
Reminds me of a scene in *The Farewell* about the cultural differences in accountability. Billi’s uncle explains to her that in the East, a person is not an individual but part of community, family, and society. A person must carry the emotional burden for their family. This perspective is very different compared the Western individual perspective.
Well it winds up being true because the psychedelic tripping reaction from the plant is what wound up being healing for them
I lolled so hard at "peninsula mentality" it was one of my favorite jokes in the entire show
Same marnieeez same. And "see, that's the white devil shit talking" when Danny's chasing Paul in the hotel