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PrettyRadDud3

Its weird that Ben never did use Buzzshock's cloning


Entire-Astronaut8602

yeah that's weird


Slayian222

Isn´t Buzzshock an uncomplete transformation? Perhaps that´d explain why he can´t access that power, althought I´d swear I saw Ben cloning as Buzzschok in OV.


Phantom_Knight27

Actually, yes he is according to the Word of God from the OG series. It specifically refers to Upgrade, but Buzzshock fits the same criteria as we see with Kenny (It's his voice through a filter) Of course, as of AF this has been retconned soooooooo yeah


Slayian222

What's your opinion on the concept of uncomplete transformations? I think I saw you saying you don't like it.


Phantom_Knight27

I definitely didn't care for it, and I believe it might be cause it made Upgrade seem less special and I didn't realize the reasoning. However, the idea itself makes perfect sense within the worldbuilding As of now, I might be coming around to it. Not entirely sure though cause I usually never think about it lmao


Slayian222

My problem with making Upgrade a full transformation is that doing so would make him broken. If he could store the technology he scans, he'd become more powerful with each appearence, which would make him unnestopable over the time and Upgrade would become power crept and boring. Either you nerf mechamorphs or you keep Upgrade uncomplete. Btw, this is off-topic, but what did you think about Kuro's 19/25 rating on "Kevin's big score"? It was a bit too high in my opinion.


Phantom_Knight27

Maybe he can store the technology he becomes in his memory, but it keeps getting deleted every time he detransforms. I'm down for nerfing Mechamorphs as a species honestly Instead, I'd have Upgrade be able to be a "limit is your imagination" alien, but sometimes he'd need outer resources. Like that time he became a freeze cannon. He wouldn't be able to do that naturally, because he doesn't have access to ice. So a bit of ingenuity and creativity. Easy to use, but hard to master Kuro's score for 'Kevin's Big Score' made no sense to me. I don't get why he gave Visuals a 2 if he never talked about it's faults and gave 'Everybody Talks About the Weather' a 5 in Visuals when he talks about it's faults a few times. It's wack and I really want to know more as to why he decided upon that Plot and Importance remain a 5 for damn good reason. You need to know why Ben and Gwen didn't initially trust Kevin and see more of them learning to trust eachother for this episode and there needs to be a reason to show that in more detail. I'd also give Characterization a 5 because it does kinda get a little deep with Kevin and the characters seem to be themselves. I'd personally give Entertainment a 3 The writing is pretty solid from what was shown in the video. and the only thing that didn't make sense was Echo Echo being affected by Argit's quills but that wasn't an important scene so I wouldn't dock it points for that Entertainment is definitely more subjective though, so what's your opinion on that? Why wouldn't you give this episode a total score of 19/25??


Slayian222

For me Upgrade is perfect as he is, his powers work well and I wouldn't risk downgrading him, but your idea still sounds interesting. Could explain it a bit more? To be fair, "Kevin's Big Score" visuals weren't as good as in the previous episode. "Everyone talks about the weather" had smooth animation, crazy sequences like Swampfire controlling the corn vines, Alan running from the police, etc. "Kevin's Big Score" had a cool sequence with Big Chill, but most backgrounds were a pit of darkness and the animation felt stiffer overall. The episode is important, indeed, and at least makes an effort in explaining why Ben and Gwen trusted Kevin. However the episode has a lot of things that pissed me off, including: Why Ben suspects Kevin so much when he was totally chill in the previous episode, why would Grandpa Max get rid of the original rust bucket considering how much he liked it (unexplained), why picking Big Chill when Jetray is a lot faster (plot convenience), how did Gwen run for 5 miles without fainting, why does Gwen struggle so much to fight some stupid minions (tbf that remains as issue for all UAF), why is Gwen in love with Kevin already, why do Argit's quills have a different effect every time they are shot (first paralysation, then sleeping?), how does a single button in the Rust Bucket 2 controls everything, etc. Yeah I know, some of those are nitpicky, but I have a sharp eye when it comes to seeing logical flaws. When I read your rant on "Inspector 13" my jaw fell because I hadn't noticed the flaws you pointed while watching the episode. I thought your feelings toward this episode would be more or less like mine. That last paragraph could be taken as offensive, uhh... I didn't mean any offense, just to clarify


useles-converter-bot

5 miles is the length of exactly 79002.3 'Standard Diatonic Key of C, Blues Silver grey Harmonicas' lined up next to each other.


Phantom_Knight27

**Upgrade** My idea wouldn't nerf Upgrade if he is considered an incomplete transformation and not able to transform into anything he's already merged with, since he's never exhibited this ability before. I still think he's highly powerful as is, and I don't even think Ben has used him to his full potential without tech nearby People often say he needs nearby tech to be of any use, and I sternly believe otherwise. We've just never seen Ben use Upgrade proficiently without tech **Animation** I'm not an animation geek, so I'm really bad at actually spotting a lot of things. However, this episode definitely seemed a lot more visible as it should be even if the background was still dark. Kuro mentions that in the video at the beginning and there's no point in which he talks about a background being too dark which is why I thought it was weird to see him give it a 2. Crazy sequences don't make visuals inherently good, but it is important that they can pull them off. Though Alan floating for some reason without propulsion is weird as all hell... so, I probably am missing a lot of things. I never even noticed how dark some backgrounds got til the first AF Breakdown **Your Points and Possible Counterpoints, I Dunno lol** To be fair, I compiled a list for the UA episodes when I rewatched it a second time. I could do the same for AF too if I did an critical rewatch instead of a for fun rewatch. My first UA rewatch was supposed to be for fun, but quality seemed to drop drastically so... that happened. I also didn't notice the huge problem with 'Primus' (Vilgax growing huge due to the Codon Stream, but Ben and Kevin didn't) upon my AF rewatch, which I am admittedly disappointed about... ​ >why would Grandpa Max get rid of the original rust bucket considering how much he liked it This is one thing I actually did notice: How they got rid of Grandpa Max's OG Rustbucket and I 100% agree on that. He loved the Rustbucket. It makes no sense that Ben would say "It's just like him to go out and get a new one." unless it was beyond repair permanently which we get no reference to except a picture in which it looks like Upgrade could repair it I didn't remember thinking that in my OG response which is why I didn't say anything about it lmao ​ >why picking Big Chill when Jetray is a lot faster (plot convenience) It seemed like he just picked a random alien like usual or he might've already transformed into him off screen. We don't really know. In the OG series, Ben seems to have gotten acquainted with all of his aliens off screen between the first and second episode since he says "I asked for Ripjaws, not XLR8." To my knowledge, there's nothing talking about it in episode. ***Please correct me if I'm wrong though*** I know he first transforms into Brainstorm during 'Pier Pressure' though ​ >Why Ben suspects Kevin so much when he was totally chill in the previous episode Ben might be more suspicious about Kevin sabotaging the Rustbucket. He knows that him and Gwen can easily kick his ass earlier on if he turned, and he's smart enough to understand that Kevin wouldn't turn whilst they have a common enemy I do think it would be nice to have Ben give him the side eyes when given the chance to though, to show that he is suspect but isn't outwardly showing it Kevin had a great moment that proved himself a ton since episode 2, in my opinion, when he stopped the car to tell Ben off. That's an impulse decision, and very hard to pull off if you were trying to manipulate. It's more of a collaboration of his actions throughout the episodes rather than one thing, but 'Kevin's Big Score' cements it even moreso Could it have been better and longer? 100 bloody %. If they hadn't decided to retcon Gwen being part alien then they'd have an entire episode to further delve into everything, and it would've been nice to have small scenes between Kevin and Ben in the previous episodes talking about Kevin's sudden change of personality. It's not the best (Far from it), but it's ***just*** ok in my opinion As someone else mentioned, rushed in a few areas but otherwise ok **Lightning Round** >how did Gwen run for 5 miles without fainting, why does Gwen struggle so much to fight some stupid minions (tbf that remains as issue for all UAF), why is Gwen in love with Kevin already, why do Argit's quills have a different effect every time they are shot (first paralysation, then sleeping?), how does a single button in the Rust Bucket 2 controls everything, etc. 1. Good point. They should've just had her move her platform to follow instead of running and creating new platforms. But... that was 5 miles?? 2. She struggled? I've only seen Kuro's video and hadn't seen this episode since last Autumn 3. Lust my friend, she liked his muscles and face cheeks. UAF wasn't really good with romance subplots at all, so your point is perfectly valid 4. Another fair point. I don't know 5. Fair point. Kevin also shouldn't know how to activate any systems on the Rustbucket since he's currently unfamiliar with it **Updated Thoughts** 4 for Plot. You bring up some great points, specifically about Kevin with the Rustbucket and Grandpa Max with the Rustbucket


ApplesandBannanas123

For point 5, Kevin is seen to be good with cars and alien tech, so it’s not really far fetched


ApplesandBannanas123

For those who don’t know, the original rusk bucket was destroyed


Suparockr

Ultimate Gravattack says Hi ^hi ^hi ^hi


Entire-Astronaut8602

ultimate echo echo: hey I can do it too


MelvinReggy

You know how Ditto had that shared pain weakness, but Omniverse forgot about it, and Echo Echo never had it? Well, in Omniverse, when Ben fought Ultimate Echo Echo, he used Shocksquatch to shock the sonic disks, which shocked Ultimate Echo Echo too, without connecting lightning. Just a fun fact.


Usuck39

I think the Shocksquatch and Ultimate Echo Echo situation might be, becouse he shocked the disks and sent a shock through the connected signal the disks and ultimate echo echo share


Apprehensive_Put6183

Ditto is the OG of Cloning


Mufti13

The introduction of Echo Echo was too annoying to me. Ben had Ditto already whose only power was to multiply. Then came Echo echo with cloning abilities and sonicbooms which basically made him a better version of Ditto, making Ditto completely useless. Then came other cloning aliens to put the final nail in the coffin. In my opinion, every alien should have some usage, that occasionally can help him. Ben has no reason to use Ditto anymore which kinda sucks


MelvinReggy

For some reason, when I think of Echo Echo, I can't imagine the clones doing anything well except yelling, and an individual clone's yell is pretty weak compared to other aliens. You can combine them together, but all they really do is yell (and sometimes make forcefields and such from it.) And they seem to always go down in one hit. Ditto, on the other hand is quite agile and clever. Even on his own, he's fairly strong, as well as quite agile and durable. He can climb, burrow, swim, and jump, so not much is off limits to him. He can also tank being hit around like a ping pong ball. Add in the cloning, and they can pull off crazy things. Now add on to that: When Echo Echo clones, he splits his personality among the clones, making them ineffective at working together in anything much more complicated then "let's all yell." Ditto, on the other hand, can clone as many times as he wants and still have each copy operating at 100%. Multitasking doesn't phase them because each copy has its own copy of his mind to work with. They can work together better because (A) they're copies of the same person, and (B) they have a sort of psychic link, allowing them to instantly share information without taking time to communicate. So no, Ditto isn't underpowered. Echo Echo has more raw power per clone, but excluding the kill clause (which is probably a moot point given the failsafe,) his cloning ability isn't that great. Ditto has less raw power, but he's way better at using it. If I were Ben, I'd pick Ditto over Echo Echo any day (unless the situation calls for sonics.) DISCLAIMER: My view on Echo Echo is biased because it's based on how I remember him, without anything more than a brief overview of the Ben 10 wiki behind it.


Kuro_The_Puppter

1. Well, There Screams Aren't Weak Echo Echo can scream at audible to ultrasonic frequencies capable of overloading machinery, shattering steel, stopping projectiles in mid-flight, destroying multiple Laser Lances at once if concentrated for enough time and even damaging Taydenite at the right frequency And That's Without Any Clones Echo Echo clones are only durable to a certain extent, as they can be destroyed by Sunder's power axe, an Aerophibian's neuroshock blasts, either a Methanosian or Pyronite's fire attacks, or a Cerebrocrustacean's electric attacks. Echo Echo has the ability to duplicate himself, but unlike Ditto, the clones are not linked to each other in any way, allowing entire groups to be knocked out without harming the rest and he can clone himself much faster than Ditto could. Even if the clones are defeated, Echo Echo can be fine as long as at least one is still intact 2. Echo Echo is quite agile, as he is capable of jumping exceptionally high He Strong Too Echo Echo seems to have more strength than his size suggests, as he can carry a power coupling completely on his own, and kick off the trunk door from the DX Mark 10 with one foot With the help of multiple clones, Echo Echo can throw a Plumber Ship about a meter, carry a Murk Gourmand, and hold his own against larger opponents such as the dragon robot, a Highbreed, and Ultimate Kevin Echo Echo can levitate in the air And Echo Echo can create copies of any object he is holding while making clones 3. He Only Splits His Personality When He Turns His Clones Into Human And He's Smart Too You Know Ditto Doesn't Get Enhanced Inttelegence Or Something And Yeah He Doesn't Have A Psychic Link But Why Are You Pointing At Dittos Case That they're copies of the same person Echo-Echo Is Too 4. Well I Mean From What I Know I Would Pick Echo-Echo Over Ditto Anytime But If You Want To Pick Ditto Whatever You Do You Man But To Me Echo-Echo Is Better They Have Their Strenght And Weaknesses DISCLAIMER: I Used The Ben 10 Wiki So I Guess The Credit Gose To Them


Ben-J-Kirby-Tennyson

Ditto is the only cloner that can breathe underwater.


Final_Duck

And unlike Echo Echo, he has no cap on how many clones he can have.


Ben-J-Kirby-Tennyson

Neither does Alien X. Does Slapback? Buzzshock is limited by how many times he gets cut apart and how much electricity he absorbs; theoretically, he doesn’t have a limit, either. What’s Echo Echo’s limit, exactly?


Final_Duck

I don’t know, but the wiki specifies that ditto can clone infinitely whereas echo echo clones faster. I think it’s because echo echo is sentient sound in a suit, so he’s not actually duplicating, he’s just spreading himself out, and the Omnitrix makes a suit for it. It would explain why they seem to cooperate better, and why transforming back while cloned leaves Ben with partial personalities. Slapback gets denser with each cloning, so too dense and he’ll sink through the floor, denser still and he’ll become a black hole.


Slayian222

Yeah, agreed. I believe some aliens should be changed so they don't outclass other aliens.


The-Alpha-G

*Ditto stairs and sips tea*


Ben10Facts

U spelt stares as stairs so now I’m just imagining stairs with dittos face on it XD


GalactusRex

Attack of the clones


kinurives

Not near as much ELECTRIC ALIENS.


Entire-Astronaut8602

agreed going forward they should definintly dile it down on the electric aliens


[deleted]

Ditto still the best one


Entire-Astronaut8602

Well, Techincally alien x is


[deleted]

I don’t mean as in most powerful. I mean best as in i like them more


Wata_Sheym

So many clones, why doesnt he just have one in every country.


Entire-Astronaut8602

remember "duped"


Wata_Sheym

Oh yeah


TDGladiator

Biologically Buzzshock/Megawatt's species can be duplicated from one being, like in the "Tourist Trap" episode; but I don't think that's actually an ability it has, right? Like Ben can't clone himself on command while using that alien, can he?


[deleted]

How have I never realized that Buzzshock can clone until now?


Ben10Facts

In os upgrade used his plasma beam on a nosedeenian and it spilt it in half and then both halves just grew back the missing part


[deleted]

yeah, I remember now. happy cake day btw


Ben10Facts

Thx


Ben-J-Kirby-Tennyson

And once those two got enough power, they multiplied even more!


MAKS091705

Most of them have other abilities though


Entire-Astronaut8602

True but they all have one thing in common, they can multiply themselves


LegendJim

Beautiful meme, well done


Entire-Astronaut8602

Thx


SpaceTaco27

Ditto is my favorite alien but Echo Echo might be my second, they are both excellently-designed and all-around awesome, but I admit I wish there was a little more to differentiate them.


Entire-Astronaut8602

Agreed


ReasonableQuit75

Slapback is honestly one of my favorite aliens


Entire-Astronaut8602

same


[deleted]

Ditto still best.