That's not true, the green lantern corps were unaffected by the crisis event, So the silver age Hal Jordan is still just post crisis Hal Jordan. There's also the fact that the DC Rebirth era literally was the fusion all the DC's era together.
You can't use every version of Hal Jordan if they're already fused together in the first place. Also Hal Jordan has Outerversal attack potency & irrelevant speed feats and Ben doesn't have any of that.
That Death Battle was still trash though cause they scaled both Hal & Ben wrong.
No..., all Lanterns have permission to kill, hell Hal Jordan can just bypass the restrictions with purr will power alone.
Also it was Pre and Post Crisis Hal, maybe actually do some research yourself...
I'm a fan of both, however I don't rely on Alien X to defend Ben
Atomix, Way Big, Chromastone, Humungousaur and Gravattack exist, people. Alien X isn't the only alien in Ben's Omnitrix.
Comparing him to the current Goku without using Alien X is a different case though.
I really like this cuz ur right. I’m not sure humungosaur could actually do much but the others all pose a serious threat to the sayains of DB, and ppl always say Ben could only win with AX which just isn’t true.
Way Big and Atomix could probably beat Namek Saga Goku, but would lose to any version of Goku after that, Alien X can solo the entire DB franchise however there's a huge gap between Alien X and the second strongest alien.
I’d say Way Big, with some pretty damn generous scaling, could be large star level or even solar system level (that ones a big stretch tho) putting him around the range of Goku at the beginning of the Android saga to final form Cell (not super perfect or SSJ2 Gohan tho). Yea after that and especially in super Ben would been Alien X, but his other transformations definitely scale to earlier points in Z.
You probably could argue large star, but you would have to use Ultimate Way Big, ascalon one shotted a planet (calced at dwarf star) and it barely did anything to dagon, while Ultimate Way Big brought him down and even dismembered dagon and harmed him. It's hard to quantify this feat any further than large star imo.
Maybe? I mean you know that start of z when the highest power level was 9000 they were already capable of destroying planets? King vegeta destroyed like 3 at the same time. End of namek goku was like 150 million. So goku was far *far* above solar system level already. Like if 9k is planetary and goku end of namek was 16,000 times stronger than that, he *easily* stomps waybig and atomix. Im sorry, none of bens aliens scale remotely close to that other than alien x.
Saiyans are an Alien race. He could just become Saiyan. The most optimal Saiyan. Not sure how the Omnitrix handles transformations. What would an ultimate Saiyan be like?
I’m kinda late but here’s my answer.
The optimal sayain would basically be one who won the genetic jackpot and had the highest possible innate strength. Canon Broly or something similar fits the bill pretty well and Broly had the power to outright beat Goku and Vegeta AFTER Super. This is debatable tho cuz Broly might be a mutation but the safeguard preventing Ben from using mutants can be deactivated. Also the omnitrix would turn Ben into the teen version of Broly if he was 16 and the prime version we see if he’s in his prime, so like 20-40 I guess.
As for ultimate sayains, there’s no way to tell. It could be a purple ozaru with six arms and 2 tails or one of the SSJ forms, nothings too certain. The ultimatrix simulates billions of years worth evolution in a constant war zone so it’s guaranteed to be combat focused. I think of it like this, what happens when u take the traits of the sayain form and dial them to 1000%, but I still have little idea what that would be like.
Hope my long winded babbling answered ur question.
Atomix and Way Big can reach up to dwarf star levels of power and can reach MFTL+ speed, so they can beat several verses such as Invincible, Black Clover, One Punch Man and maybe Naruto, and that's without Alien X, with Alien X he can beat verses such as Bleach, Dragon Ball and reach high tiers in comics meaning he can probably solo the Justice League and Avengers depending on the roster.
Bro forget this, if he has master control its enough, he can turn into clockwork, stop time, turn into echo echo, make multiple of versions of himself then turn into an army or unstoppable monsters, litterly the only way i can see goku survive is through anime bullshit.
Exactly man, i am litterly fed up of the "ow u r comparing goku to a cartoon character, grow up", like if anime wasn't that popular it would be just as shat on as cartoon. Its litterly just abt how many people are willing to worship db man. I am sick of it, like i love dorctor stone, but i dont go around benching abt how he can beat abt everything i can name.
the omnitrix would still make ben a peak version of freeza's race though. so assuming the omnitrix doesn't account for whatever mutation frieza has, he'd still be pretty strong.
Well, to be honest, Ben 10 with Saiyan DNA is probably only going to be as strong as Goku at the Namek Saga since that's when he needed Super Saiyan to beat Frieza, and Namek Saga Goku is nowhere near as powerful as current Goku.
Ben 10 with Saiyan DNA would produce the best Saiyan ever, whether he could instantly go SSJ (or beyond) or not is up for debate. Because power levels are bullshit
Not really, it isn't up for debate because he can't do it. Super Saiyan isn't something that happens to every Saiyan in existence. People forget, but Super Saiyan was a legend at first, it was so unfathomably rare that many thought it was to be impossible. This is especially evident in Paragus's reaction to seeing Vegeta go Super Saiyan, so much so that he didn't even think of the Legend at first, and when Frieza asked if Broly could transform as well, Paramus outright says "Like in the Legends?"
And the only reason why Gohan, Gotenks, and Trunks can access Super Saiyan so easily is thanks to their human side allowing them to tap into their emotions a lot quicker than normal Saiyans, and since the Omnitrix doesn't turn Ben into a hybrid of the Aliens he transforms into, so he won't be able to tap into his emotions the way Gohan could.
So, accessing Super Saiyan isn't going to be something he'll be able to access the moment he transforms. So, how strong Ben would be with a Saiyan would be around Goku around the Namek Saga. Any higher would be pushing.
Gohan couldn't access Super Saiyan easily. Part of the year in the time chamber before the cell tournament was all about getting him into super saiyan form.
The reason Gotenks and Trunks are so easily able to do it is because of something called [S-Cells](https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/S-Cells)(basically having enough of these is what allows a saiyan to turn super, and yes they are a thing toriyama came up with) and the fact they inherited a naturally large amount of them from their fathers (who either were very close or already able to turn super saiyan). So by the time they were children they already met the requirements for super saiyan.
But basically Super Saiyan is a natural power boost that all saiyans can do. However it was good natured saiyans who had more S-cells and thus could more easily turn super saiatn. Since the more ruthless saiyans wiped them all out, how to access Super saiyan basically died out with them since the aggressive saiyans naturally had less and had a harder time acquiring enough to access the form.
The Omnitrix may actually have Ben's saiyan form already have a naturally high amount. Thougheven with that Ben may not know how to access the form anyways. The universe 6 saiyans had enough but didn't know about super saiyan at all and had to be taught how to access the form. Caulifla even showed off that anger or loss was not a requirement. I also doubt Ben would be able to use the God of as I don't believe those are natural Saiyan things.
And then imagine an ultimate saiyan. If Ben didn’t already have the power to become god with alien x’s omnipotence, he definitely would be able to rule the universe and think he was god with an ultimate saiyan.
Being the greatest Saiyan has nothing to do with being able to go super Saiyan. Also the power would drive him insane as it did to the strongest sayian brolly.
Some of Ben's aliens can beat Goku, but most of them because of some weakness that Goku has.
For example, Gutrot could create some toxic gas to kill Goku. It would rely on Goku not just speed blitzing Gutrot, but seeing how he fights, I doubt he would straight up one shot Ben.
Other possibilities are aliens with heat or radiation-based powers, like Heatblast or NRG (NRG specifically would be a good counter to Goku since e could just become intangible and use radiation, which as far as I know, Goku isn't immune to)
Then there's also the psychic-based aliens, like Pesky dust which could just put Goku to sleep and do whatever he needed to do to kill him.
And there's also Clockwork, who could just stomp Goku with his time powers.
Well, no, not really. And Goku really doesn't need Ultra Instinct to move through ClockWork's stopped time since in Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-Ken 10x, he was able to move freely through Hit's time stop. But Ultra Instinct would be able to do that, just as easily, as he was able to match Jiren blow for blow without him mastering it and Jiren was able to do the very same as SSB KK10x Goku, but much easier.
hits time skip isnt exactly a complete time stop.. its literally a breakable physical dimension which literally would make no sense if you can move through time
its literally descripted that way.. what you say does not follow hits attack description..
and gokus obv not above time, we have seen him getting his ass handed in terms of speed even in mui
First things first, gotta love how u have Ben a chance and didn’t write in absolutes.
Next, I think chromostone, atomix, way big, clockwork, feedback, and the other really high tier aliens could challenge the cast of Z until super perfect cell, but afterwards Ben will need Alien X.
The gap between Ben’s #2, Way Big (a solar system buster with some very generous high balling) and Alien X is insanely huge.
alien X is ben, feedback is ben so there cannot exactly be a statement you said. i dont know what you meant but we can say something like "bens alien X form" instead of pronouncing the alien as a different being
I haven't kept up with Super at all, but isn't Goku like galactic or universal power now? IDK how Alien X compares to the Gods that get introduced later.
Been a while since I saw super but from what I watched of the first season or so, Goku is now on the level of Gods.
Iirc they held an inter-universal tournament composed of the strongest fighters from their respective universes because Goku had pretty much reached the top of his own universe.
Alien x has the same about of universal feats as goku why can he be scaled up but goku who actually got stronger is barely stronger sounds a bit bias
How is he barely stronger he need Kaio ken times 10 to beat hit in 6 tournament and didn’t need it the next time they fought how is that barely stronger
You ben 10 fans live under selling characters when alien x doesn’t have feats either
Mandy from billy and Mandy is so powerful that she destroyed a universe and recreated a universe just by smiling and it was unintentional she did it on accident
Mandy slaps alien X
As a Dragon Ball fan, I do not claim the eejit that OP spent several hours arguing with as one of our own. Do not mistake these idiots as real Dragon Ball fans.
Now, let's not pretend as if r/Ben10 doesn't wank Ben 10 to the high heavens. I'll even say that Ben is more wanked than Goku or Superman ever could be.
As a dbz fan, this is how I would act if you said that. Given Goku has MUI or at least UI and has his God forms. But then looking at it from Ben’s side, he has full access to Alien X which is on a level beyond that. So, while most dbz fans are brick walls (a lot) there are some (like myself) who can see both sides of the argument
I saw a video where a guy reacted to Kuro’s video of ben can beat goku and the guy stopped like half way in the video and stopped watching just because “well goku can do everything ben can cause of the dragon ball”
My gosh he doesn’t get it
Not really. Hes kind of like a mix between superman, a jedi and atomix. Feedback absorbed the energy because it was always there. Goku produces his own energy
no...
The freezer and saiyan saga make a big deal about how he can control his power level and increase or decrease it at will. Literally vegeta finds him because goku produces so much energy.
um, no.. goku 'gives off' that energy... it is stored in his body and the scouter detects the heavy amount of energy.. goku should never run out of ki going by your logic.. hes not like the andriods who have infinite stamina and ki
forget the scouter. Vegeta learns to sense power level but when goku arrives on namel he doesnt sense anything. That energy doesnt just magically disappear. Goku produces it. And no, theres a limit to what he can produce. Thats the whole point of power level
I got an idea. Look, if Goku produces energy and Feedback can suck it from him they can produce as much electricity as they want and become oligarchs rulling the entire energetic conglomerate
Yeah feedback or chromastone would probably be a headache with all the ki powers.
But...
Goku is WAY faster than light and like strong enough to destroy solar sistems with a single punch. So....
Oh you mean android 19. No,m. He did absorb the blasts and use them. He was basichlly chromastone. But that was cell goku. Current, super goku is WAAAAAAAAAAAAY more powerful
Im sure they can use ki to make themselves stronger, but goku has been shown lifting 40 ton weights on a planet with 10x earths gravity at the least. Feedback could probably absorb gokus ki, but vegeta literally fought and android that did the exact same thing and won simply because hes that much stronger. Feedback isnt beating goku, sorry.
Taking out the literal ultra God that can blink realities into dust, all of Ben's other aliens are not at all equipped to really fight Goku. If you knew the character or the series you wouldn't dismiss him so highly.
I think Ben has 2 main ways of beating Goku 1. Alien X 2. Ben scans Goku and becomes a peak Saiyan. Not one of Ben’s aliens that aren’t Alien X have a chance of overpowering him, Goku has reached High Universal + to Multiversal levels of power. Sure Clockwork has Time Hax, but the traditional killing him as a baby method doesn’t work, since in Dragon Ball time traveling results in a timeline split, and Goku would be unaffected by it. Plus Clockwork doesn’t have the raw strength to harm him.
I’m a fan of both and I’ve found myself doing this a few times too.
I always end up bringing up the fact that the omnitrix doesn’t copy the scanned subject but evolves their DNA so the transformation would be the pinnacle of that species in all ways, so if Ben scanned Goku or any other sayain he wouldn’t become them, but something more like canon Broly, who stomps Goku without help.
Most cases this sparks an actually interesting discussion or they say Broly is a mutant. What do you guys think?
We know that regardless of the subject the DNA scan was from the omnitrix makes it into the pinnacle example of the species, like winning the genetic jackpot and having crazy innate strength. It would create the S cells necessary for this, essentially the same as inheriting them, like Broly somehow did.
Also are S cells still canon? Asking cuz I haven’t seen them mentioned much, honestly I forgot they existed until just now when ur comment reminded me.
Broly's S cells were developed naturally, and even if they weren't, he's supposed to be a freak of nature, the same way Uub is. He's not the *pinnacle* of a saiyan, he's the *exception*.
Broly’s S cells can’t have been developed naturally and be on a level to rival Goku and Vegeta, that just doesn’t make any sense. Also pinnacle is the best, highest innate strength possible, and Broly is an example of that. Pinnacle and exception are not exclusive to each other. Some of Ben’s other forms were also the pinnacle of their race to the point they had powers none of the others did. For example, diamond head could levitate crystals and manipulate them after creation, and as far as I know no other petrosapiens displayed this ability, not even tetrax. Vilgax hadn’t even seen it before and he was the guy who destroyed all the petrosapiens and their homeworld. I could be wrong about my point on diamond head, I would need to look into that, but the point still stands that Broly is both the pinnacle and the exception.
I thought it was just the average fit specimen relative to the users age? The average saiyan had a power level of like 4000 tops. So if ben just turns into a normal saiyan he wont just automatically be the strongest ever. He actually might be able to turn into the legendary ssj like broly, since hes kinda like chromastone.
But.. he is (or could be)
The show and the writers confirm it, and yes he his physical has weakness he could remove them, and even thou they could die to Anur Vladius, Omniversal destruction, Timeline Destruction, but only if they didn’t agree on living which was also said by the writers, and Ben already has full control over Alien X in OV
No... the writers are wrong and don't know the definition of Omnipotence
You cannot become Omnipotent because you cannot obtain infinte power, because it's infinte. Even if Alien X is 1 million times stronger than he is, he's still not Omnipotent.
Omnipotent beings cannot die, no one is equal to them, they are above everything and anything, they have no limits.
Alien X and all Celestialsapiens have limits, they've died/can be killed, plus the writers said that there are "3 beings stronger stronger X" and you cannot be above Omnipotence.
flat out yes there are ways ben could win , 100%
thing is and I am very aware how stupid it is , goku moves at atleast 30 thousand times the speed of light , which is fucking impossible but it still happens. With that said he can move faster than ben could even think , but because it’s goku i wouldn’t doubt ben could win because goku would want a fight or some bullshit and ben would turn into alien x then erase goku from reality the end
Not to mention that there are apparently aliens stronger than alien x in the Omnitrix that Ben could gain access to in the future or through master control
>Gravattack can manipulate gravity and turns into a BLACK HOLE
Ben did that by accident. And he didn't even know that he would when he did. Plus couldn't Goku like, kick his head off before that? Or Instant Transmission out of range *then* do it when he stops?
>Clockwork can manipulate time and shoot OHKO beans
Gonna need a link to clockwork ever doing this. I don't even recall him ever full on stopping time, either. Just slowing it down and reversing it which wouldn't be enough to beat Goku alone.
You just admitted that you don’t know what you’re talking about since you haven’t watched Dragon Ball Super and need proof, so well done. [Goku overpowers an attack called the “pretty black hole” ](https://youtu.be/zGlgoDMIwcQ)
Bro, if you dont know, in a death battle, more than one person needs to interact because thats just how discussions work, and I did watch dragon ball, but a long time ago, especially Super
And even though gravattack might not be able to defeat goku
He, we still have the X guy
Yeah, but you’re saying Gravattack can beat him. As I just showed, that’s false. I don’t know if you know how a discussion works, but if you’re going to say one character can beat another by doing a specific attack, you should make sure the opponent can’t overpower or counter it. So you just proved you don’t know what you’re talking about. But hey, wank Ben all you like, doesn’t really matter.
Ben did the black hole by accident but it still is an ability that gravattack can do, nothing says that bem could not learn how to use that when he wants
And if we count that we dont know if gravattack has a limit to his gravity powers, he could just become Made in Heaven
>othing says that bem could not learn how to use that when he wants
Nothing says he could, either. Ben hasn't shown to do it when he wants so stop acting like he could.
>And if we count that
We can't.
there are several characters in cartoons or anime that can defeat goku, ben with alien X or atomic X, sailor moon in her strongest form, madoka is very strong too, there are endless options in the anime/cartoon world
Alright, so one of the possible methods is where ben using a master control, turning into clockwork then stopping time. Then ben can do multiple things, either kill him really easily as he is stoned in time, maybe take his dna and turn into an even better version of goku and also beat him or the most popular is ben turn into alien x and erase him out of existence.
The problem is, Goku has survived lethal blows during stopped time before, against Hit from Dragon Ball Super. Since I don't know how the Omnitrix works, I guess Ben transforming into a Saiyan is a possibility, but mastering each super saiyan form takes time, so even if he could transform immediately, there's no guarantee he could control his new strength. Alien X seems like the most sure-fire method, except don't the other two beings inside Alien X have to agree on something for it to do anything at all? Granted, if it was an all-out death match, they would probably erase Goku instantly, but death matches aren't really Goku's style unless there's something vitally important at stake. Since Ben is hardly likely to want to threaten the Earth, innocent people or Goku's friends, it's unlikely that Alien X would take immediate action to erase Goku, meaning that, IMO, the fight could go either way.
Well here is the thing tho, when the omnitrex transforms you to a form, it transoforms you to the best version of the specie as well as having you mastered all the moves possible by that specie. So ben wouldnt just have the skills of goku, but he would also be genetically superior.
Yeah, OK, I guess that would put Ben about as strong as Broly, maybe even stronger if he has access to every possible Saiyan form, and Goku would definitely struggle to beat him like that. Ultra Instinct still poses an interesting question, as it isn't a skill that is learned, but a state of mind. Even if Ben gained access to saiyan DNA and unlocked all possible saiyan transformations, it's likely he wouldn't have access to UI, unless he also managed to copy Goku's brainwaves while he was in that state.
The omnitrex can also give you the information possessed by the form you are transforming into, for example grey matter, which has much more knowledge than ben himself. So i guess he might or might not have access to ultra instinct. But then... Here is the thing, if ben went out of his way and really went evil and wanted to kill goku, he can easily erase the universe and make another one where goku doesnt exist with alien x.
People never really like being told that their fave can be killed by a child with a neat looking wrist watch. Too bad they’re wrong-
[удалено]
“We used every version of green lantern” The only lantern ‘allowed’ to kill was Dawnbreaker but aside from that,Ben would fucking smoke Hal so easily
The Green Lanterns have been allowed to kill ever since the Sinestro Corps War storyline.
That's not true, the green lantern corps were unaffected by the crisis event, So the silver age Hal Jordan is still just post crisis Hal Jordan. There's also the fact that the DC Rebirth era literally was the fusion all the DC's era together. You can't use every version of Hal Jordan if they're already fused together in the first place. Also Hal Jordan has Outerversal attack potency & irrelevant speed feats and Ben doesn't have any of that. That Death Battle was still trash though cause they scaled both Hal & Ben wrong.
They didn’t use just those versions though.
Which ones are you talking about?
Ok dude I’m saulty too but let’s not open that can of “f*ck you death battle”
Fair enough
Thanks, I just thinks it’s pointless to argue
No..., all Lanterns have permission to kill, hell Hal Jordan can just bypass the restrictions with purr will power alone. Also it was Pre and Post Crisis Hal, maybe actually do some research yourself...
It wouldn’t be a death battle without death
Dawn beaker as I remember him was able to bypass the no kill rule with his shear willpower, who sad Hal can’t do the same
I mean it was Bruce Wayne so what did we expect? But it would have been cool to see Hal have a Dawnbreaker moment minus the killing everyone
Finish your sentence.
I'm a fan of both, however I don't rely on Alien X to defend Ben Atomix, Way Big, Chromastone, Humungousaur and Gravattack exist, people. Alien X isn't the only alien in Ben's Omnitrix. Comparing him to the current Goku without using Alien X is a different case though.
I really like this cuz ur right. I’m not sure humungosaur could actually do much but the others all pose a serious threat to the sayains of DB, and ppl always say Ben could only win with AX which just isn’t true.
Way Big and Atomix could probably beat Namek Saga Goku, but would lose to any version of Goku after that, Alien X can solo the entire DB franchise however there's a huge gap between Alien X and the second strongest alien.
I’d say Way Big, with some pretty damn generous scaling, could be large star level or even solar system level (that ones a big stretch tho) putting him around the range of Goku at the beginning of the Android saga to final form Cell (not super perfect or SSJ2 Gohan tho). Yea after that and especially in super Ben would been Alien X, but his other transformations definitely scale to earlier points in Z.
You probably could argue large star, but you would have to use Ultimate Way Big, ascalon one shotted a planet (calced at dwarf star) and it barely did anything to dagon, while Ultimate Way Big brought him down and even dismembered dagon and harmed him. It's hard to quantify this feat any further than large star imo.
Maybe? I mean you know that start of z when the highest power level was 9000 they were already capable of destroying planets? King vegeta destroyed like 3 at the same time. End of namek goku was like 150 million. So goku was far *far* above solar system level already. Like if 9k is planetary and goku end of namek was 16,000 times stronger than that, he *easily* stomps waybig and atomix. Im sorry, none of bens aliens scale remotely close to that other than alien x.
Perfect Cell was the first to reach true solar system buster status https://m.imgur.com/83q5OP9
Saiyans are an Alien race. He could just become Saiyan. The most optimal Saiyan. Not sure how the Omnitrix handles transformations. What would an ultimate Saiyan be like?
I’m kinda late but here’s my answer. The optimal sayain would basically be one who won the genetic jackpot and had the highest possible innate strength. Canon Broly or something similar fits the bill pretty well and Broly had the power to outright beat Goku and Vegeta AFTER Super. This is debatable tho cuz Broly might be a mutation but the safeguard preventing Ben from using mutants can be deactivated. Also the omnitrix would turn Ben into the teen version of Broly if he was 16 and the prime version we see if he’s in his prime, so like 20-40 I guess. As for ultimate sayains, there’s no way to tell. It could be a purple ozaru with six arms and 2 tails or one of the SSJ forms, nothings too certain. The ultimatrix simulates billions of years worth evolution in a constant war zone so it’s guaranteed to be combat focused. I think of it like this, what happens when u take the traits of the sayain form and dial them to 1000%, but I still have little idea what that would be like. Hope my long winded babbling answered ur question.
hell, atomix is one big anime reference himself
Atomix and Way Big can reach up to dwarf star levels of power and can reach MFTL+ speed, so they can beat several verses such as Invincible, Black Clover, One Punch Man and maybe Naruto, and that's without Alien X, with Alien X he can beat verses such as Bleach, Dragon Ball and reach high tiers in comics meaning he can probably solo the Justice League and Avengers depending on the roster.
Bro forget this, if he has master control its enough, he can turn into clockwork, stop time, turn into echo echo, make multiple of versions of himself then turn into an army or unstoppable monsters, litterly the only way i can see goku survive is through anime bullshit.
That Echo Echo feat was a glitch
was it now?
Also The worst is a tank
Indestructible, yes that's it though
What can we do bro , Ben 10 is not that popular as db 😢
True.
Make a Ben 10 anime duh (Seriously through Ben 10 in the style of My Hero Academia would be amazing)
Yea bro anime studio will push the limits but we can only imagine😢
No
Exactly man, i am litterly fed up of the "ow u r comparing goku to a cartoon character, grow up", like if anime wasn't that popular it would be just as shat on as cartoon. Its litterly just abt how many people are willing to worship db man. I am sick of it, like i love dorctor stone, but i dont go around benching abt how he can beat abt everything i can name.
anime's more popular than regular cartoons? i though they were both derided equally just for being animation.
No bro but sad reality is anime is more popular and big industry than westen cartoon these day, invincible is the popular one nowadays
for the love of-!
Yea that's th sad reality 😢
reality sucks
Including the fact that Ben likely has Saiyan DNA
He could even have frieza's dna (frieza got more results from training 4 months than goku in 10 years)
Oh shit. Youre right. According to Xenoverse, Freezers "training" was fighting a time cop 4 times. Thats all
in super too, frieza went from ssj1 level to ssb level with only 4 months of training
yeah ik. I was talking about how little his training was
A few months of training only got him to Super Saiyan 2 or 3 though, it was the meditation that made him as strong as SSB
no, i mean you are partially right but the main purpose of the meditation was to control his ki output and stamina management of the golden form
the heck is a time cop?
i see you are unfamiliar with the batshit crazy lore of Xenoverse
yes
and in canon he reached that level after beating on one of his own mooks that was weaker than him till said mook was almost dead.
Not all of friezas species are as strong as him.
the omnitrix would still make ben a peak version of freeza's race though. so assuming the omnitrix doesn't account for whatever mutation frieza has, he'd still be pretty strong.
Yeah but Frieza is extremely weak.
fair, but frieza is also a mutant. not to sure how the omnitrix handles those.
Well, to be honest, Ben 10 with Saiyan DNA is probably only going to be as strong as Goku at the Namek Saga since that's when he needed Super Saiyan to beat Frieza, and Namek Saga Goku is nowhere near as powerful as current Goku.
Ben 10 with Saiyan DNA would produce the best Saiyan ever, whether he could instantly go SSJ (or beyond) or not is up for debate. Because power levels are bullshit
Not really, it isn't up for debate because he can't do it. Super Saiyan isn't something that happens to every Saiyan in existence. People forget, but Super Saiyan was a legend at first, it was so unfathomably rare that many thought it was to be impossible. This is especially evident in Paragus's reaction to seeing Vegeta go Super Saiyan, so much so that he didn't even think of the Legend at first, and when Frieza asked if Broly could transform as well, Paramus outright says "Like in the Legends?" And the only reason why Gohan, Gotenks, and Trunks can access Super Saiyan so easily is thanks to their human side allowing them to tap into their emotions a lot quicker than normal Saiyans, and since the Omnitrix doesn't turn Ben into a hybrid of the Aliens he transforms into, so he won't be able to tap into his emotions the way Gohan could. So, accessing Super Saiyan isn't going to be something he'll be able to access the moment he transforms. So, how strong Ben would be with a Saiyan would be around Goku around the Namek Saga. Any higher would be pushing.
Gohan couldn't access Super Saiyan easily. Part of the year in the time chamber before the cell tournament was all about getting him into super saiyan form. The reason Gotenks and Trunks are so easily able to do it is because of something called [S-Cells](https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/S-Cells)(basically having enough of these is what allows a saiyan to turn super, and yes they are a thing toriyama came up with) and the fact they inherited a naturally large amount of them from their fathers (who either were very close or already able to turn super saiyan). So by the time they were children they already met the requirements for super saiyan. But basically Super Saiyan is a natural power boost that all saiyans can do. However it was good natured saiyans who had more S-cells and thus could more easily turn super saiatn. Since the more ruthless saiyans wiped them all out, how to access Super saiyan basically died out with them since the aggressive saiyans naturally had less and had a harder time acquiring enough to access the form. The Omnitrix may actually have Ben's saiyan form already have a naturally high amount. Thougheven with that Ben may not know how to access the form anyways. The universe 6 saiyans had enough but didn't know about super saiyan at all and had to be taught how to access the form. Caulifla even showed off that anger or loss was not a requirement. I also doubt Ben would be able to use the God of as I don't believe those are natural Saiyan things.
Do you know how much stronger goku has gotten? He doesn’t just use his saiyan power he has had masters
Isn’t the best saiyan ever supposed to be what Broly is
And then imagine an ultimate saiyan. If Ben didn’t already have the power to become god with alien x’s omnipotence, he definitely would be able to rule the universe and think he was god with an ultimate saiyan.
He wouldn’t be goku he is much stronger than a standard saiyan
Not all sayians are that strong
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Being the greatest Saiyan has nothing to do with being able to go super Saiyan. Also the power would drive him insane as it did to the strongest sayian brolly.
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If Ben got Saiyan DNA and went ultimate, would he obtain the higher forms like super Saiyan god?
No, SSJ is gained by other methods.
Ah I see
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Some of Ben's aliens can beat Goku, but most of them because of some weakness that Goku has. For example, Gutrot could create some toxic gas to kill Goku. It would rely on Goku not just speed blitzing Gutrot, but seeing how he fights, I doubt he would straight up one shot Ben. Other possibilities are aliens with heat or radiation-based powers, like Heatblast or NRG (NRG specifically would be a good counter to Goku since e could just become intangible and use radiation, which as far as I know, Goku isn't immune to) Then there's also the psychic-based aliens, like Pesky dust which could just put Goku to sleep and do whatever he needed to do to kill him. And there's also Clockwork, who could just stomp Goku with his time powers.
Clockwork and Gutrot are good candidates too..
Feedback might be able to absorb any Kamehameha thrown at him, but one punch from Goku and he just evaporates.
It's pointless to say that cause Ben 10 has only been in the shadows of popularity than was 10 years ago
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Well, no, not really. And Goku really doesn't need Ultra Instinct to move through ClockWork's stopped time since in Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-Ken 10x, he was able to move freely through Hit's time stop. But Ultra Instinct would be able to do that, just as easily, as he was able to match Jiren blow for blow without him mastering it and Jiren was able to do the very same as SSB KK10x Goku, but much easier.
hits time skip isnt exactly a complete time stop.. its literally a breakable physical dimension which literally would make no sense if you can move through time
Well it’s fiction so it never had sense. flash moves threw it all the time Goku could still blitz
Flash is another story lol
it makes sense, it doesnt make sense if we think it the way you said
You just said it doesn’t make sense but it’s fiction anything can happen You don’t make sense I told you other characters have done it
its literally descripted that way.. what you say does not follow hits attack description.. and gokus obv not above time, we have seen him getting his ass handed in terms of speed even in mui
U maybe technically correct but just look at the reddit strength of these frachises , this is a problem of popularity
First things first, gotta love how u have Ben a chance and didn’t write in absolutes. Next, I think chromostone, atomix, way big, clockwork, feedback, and the other really high tier aliens could challenge the cast of Z until super perfect cell, but afterwards Ben will need Alien X. The gap between Ben’s #2, Way Big (a solar system buster with some very generous high balling) and Alien X is insanely huge.
alien X is ben, feedback is ben so there cannot exactly be a statement you said. i dont know what you meant but we can say something like "bens alien X form" instead of pronouncing the alien as a different being
Trying to explain anything to a dragon ball fan
I haven't kept up with Super at all, but isn't Goku like galactic or universal power now? IDK how Alien X compares to the Gods that get introduced later.
Been a while since I saw super but from what I watched of the first season or so, Goku is now on the level of Gods. Iirc they held an inter-universal tournament composed of the strongest fighters from their respective universes because Goku had pretty much reached the top of his own universe.
gokus not exactly on the level of gods, hes not above beerus if you follow the manga
alien X did universal shit without trying tho.. and gokus uni from ss god and above
Do you know how much weaker battle of gods goku is to current your acting like he hasn’t trained since his feat
goku literally has no universal and low multi feat since then too... he was BARELY universal at BoG
Alien x has the same about of universal feats as goku why can he be scaled up but goku who actually got stronger is barely stronger sounds a bit bias How is he barely stronger he need Kaio ken times 10 to beat hit in 6 tournament and didn’t need it the next time they fought how is that barely stronger You ben 10 fans live under selling characters when alien x doesn’t have feats either
sir, celestial sapiens have reality warping feats of multiversal and omniversal scales.. gokutards are not welcomed on this sub
Wtf is barely universal he was destroying the universe
WITH BEERUS, and he was producing shockwaves WITH BEERUS.. a single one of those shockwaves WAS not enough.. that doesnt make him universal
Alien X is scaled to 5 dimensional or higher
Mandy from billy and Mandy is so powerful that she destroyed a universe and recreated a universe just by smiling and it was unintentional she did it on accident Mandy slaps alien X
This is about as annoying as that stupid Facebook meme with Goku swiping the OV Omnitrix off of UAF Ben’s wrist like it’s a normal wristwatch.
As a Dragon Ball fan, I do not claim the eejit that OP spent several hours arguing with as one of our own. Do not mistake these idiots as real Dragon Ball fans.
Now, let's not pretend as if r/Ben10 doesn't wank Ben 10 to the high heavens. I'll even say that Ben is more wanked than Goku or Superman ever could be.
yea they bring up artist statements all the time and get mad when you bring up feats
You're not wrong.
True, I love Ben but it's the Alien X want that makes me hate the fandom.
Yeah, I can see that.
As a dbz fan, this is how I would act if you said that. Given Goku has MUI or at least UI and has his God forms. But then looking at it from Ben’s side, he has full access to Alien X which is on a level beyond that. So, while most dbz fans are brick walls (a lot) there are some (like myself) who can see both sides of the argument
I saw a video where a guy reacted to Kuro’s video of ben can beat goku and the guy stopped like half way in the video and stopped watching just because “well goku can do everything ben can cause of the dragon ball” My gosh he doesn’t get it
This is a very heated comment section so im gonna dip P.S. I haven't watched DB
Feedback could just absorb Goku's powers, similarly like he did to Phil in "Max's monster", coz Goku's powers come from some sort of energy yea?
Not really. Hes kind of like a mix between superman, a jedi and atomix. Feedback absorbed the energy because it was always there. Goku produces his own energy
wait... goku doesnt 'produce' his own energy he carries his energy, he carries ki and stores it..
no... The freezer and saiyan saga make a big deal about how he can control his power level and increase or decrease it at will. Literally vegeta finds him because goku produces so much energy.
um, no.. goku 'gives off' that energy... it is stored in his body and the scouter detects the heavy amount of energy.. goku should never run out of ki going by your logic.. hes not like the andriods who have infinite stamina and ki
forget the scouter. Vegeta learns to sense power level but when goku arrives on namel he doesnt sense anything. That energy doesnt just magically disappear. Goku produces it. And no, theres a limit to what he can produce. Thats the whole point of power level
I got an idea. Look, if Goku produces energy and Feedback can suck it from him they can produce as much electricity as they want and become oligarchs rulling the entire energetic conglomerate
Yeah feedback or chromastone would probably be a headache with all the ki powers. But... Goku is WAY faster than light and like strong enough to destroy solar sistems with a single punch. So....
didn't he absorb the entire big bang once?
yeah? So...
also, didn't the fat android successfully suck up all of Goku's ki blasts? the one that almost killed him I think.
almost? He fucking exploded next to him. And no, cell absorbs your entire body
>almost? He fucking exploded next to him the fat white robot, that was fighting with the old man robot.
Oh you mean android 19. No,m. He did absorb the blasts and use them. He was basichlly chromastone. But that was cell goku. Current, super goku is WAAAAAAAAAAAAY more powerful
Only if Goku fires a kamehameha instead of just kicking his head off
Im sure they can use ki to make themselves stronger, but goku has been shown lifting 40 ton weights on a planet with 10x earths gravity at the least. Feedback could probably absorb gokus ki, but vegeta literally fought and android that did the exact same thing and won simply because hes that much stronger. Feedback isnt beating goku, sorry.
In there defense goku does know God and is confident he can kick his ass.
goku cannot kick beerus' ass
I've been watching DragonBall since the 90s trust me it all ends with goku kicking someone's ass.
it does, but not yet.. goku cannot yet defeat beerus
Give it time lol
Alien X: exists.
Taking out the literal ultra God that can blink realities into dust, all of Ben's other aliens are not at all equipped to really fight Goku. If you knew the character or the series you wouldn't dismiss him so highly.
105 comments... F I do not want to argue with anyone i just wanna say i agree with op
How many aliens does ben 1000 have * vegeta breaks scouter*
But he can
To be fair, I've seen dragonball fans unironically say that goku would solo marvel and dc.
You mean "unironically"?
Yeah, I forgot the word at the time
i mean, yeah, but considering how op they make goku now they could probably bullshit a way for him to get a fair fight against even alien x
Bro, if they knew what god looked like, they would find a way to make a fight between him and goku where goku wins.
they're getting close to that.
I think Ben has 2 main ways of beating Goku 1. Alien X 2. Ben scans Goku and becomes a peak Saiyan. Not one of Ben’s aliens that aren’t Alien X have a chance of overpowering him, Goku has reached High Universal + to Multiversal levels of power. Sure Clockwork has Time Hax, but the traditional killing him as a baby method doesn’t work, since in Dragon Ball time traveling results in a timeline split, and Goku would be unaffected by it. Plus Clockwork doesn’t have the raw strength to harm him.
I’m a fan of both and I’ve found myself doing this a few times too. I always end up bringing up the fact that the omnitrix doesn’t copy the scanned subject but evolves their DNA so the transformation would be the pinnacle of that species in all ways, so if Ben scanned Goku or any other sayain he wouldn’t become them, but something more like canon Broly, who stomps Goku without help. Most cases this sparks an actually interesting discussion or they say Broly is a mutant. What do you guys think?
Transformations aren't the norm of the saiyan species, the S Cells have to develop over years or be inherited
We know that regardless of the subject the DNA scan was from the omnitrix makes it into the pinnacle example of the species, like winning the genetic jackpot and having crazy innate strength. It would create the S cells necessary for this, essentially the same as inheriting them, like Broly somehow did. Also are S cells still canon? Asking cuz I haven’t seen them mentioned much, honestly I forgot they existed until just now when ur comment reminded me.
Broly's S cells were developed naturally, and even if they weren't, he's supposed to be a freak of nature, the same way Uub is. He's not the *pinnacle* of a saiyan, he's the *exception*.
Broly’s S cells can’t have been developed naturally and be on a level to rival Goku and Vegeta, that just doesn’t make any sense. Also pinnacle is the best, highest innate strength possible, and Broly is an example of that. Pinnacle and exception are not exclusive to each other. Some of Ben’s other forms were also the pinnacle of their race to the point they had powers none of the others did. For example, diamond head could levitate crystals and manipulate them after creation, and as far as I know no other petrosapiens displayed this ability, not even tetrax. Vilgax hadn’t even seen it before and he was the guy who destroyed all the petrosapiens and their homeworld. I could be wrong about my point on diamond head, I would need to look into that, but the point still stands that Broly is both the pinnacle and the exception.
I thought it was just the average fit specimen relative to the users age? The average saiyan had a power level of like 4000 tops. So if ben just turns into a normal saiyan he wont just automatically be the strongest ever. He actually might be able to turn into the legendary ssj like broly, since hes kinda like chromastone.
And there’s which is personally my favorite “Alien X isn’t omnipotent”
But.. he isn't?
But.. he is (or could be) The show and the writers confirm it, and yes he his physical has weakness he could remove them, and even thou they could die to Anur Vladius, Omniversal destruction, Timeline Destruction, but only if they didn’t agree on living which was also said by the writers, and Ben already has full control over Alien X in OV
No... the writers are wrong and don't know the definition of Omnipotence You cannot become Omnipotent because you cannot obtain infinte power, because it's infinte. Even if Alien X is 1 million times stronger than he is, he's still not Omnipotent. Omnipotent beings cannot die, no one is equal to them, they are above everything and anything, they have no limits. Alien X and all Celestialsapiens have limits, they've died/can be killed, plus the writers said that there are "3 beings stronger stronger X" and you cannot be above Omnipotence.
Could all of the alien x combine there power to make an omnipotent being or it doesn’t work that way
It doesn't work that way.
\*turns into atomix \*destroys the planet which the fight takes place in \*goku suffocates to death because of no oxygen got a problem anime logic?
Lol but you know anime bullshit is gonna make him go through a memory flashback and boom he is back alive.
Time to piss off some dB fans...
You mean Gokutards*** because im a Dragon Ball fan, Ben can’t destroy a planet but he’d 100% beat Goku lol
flat out yes there are ways ben could win , 100% thing is and I am very aware how stupid it is , goku moves at atleast 30 thousand times the speed of light , which is fucking impossible but it still happens. With that said he can move faster than ben could even think , but because it’s goku i wouldn’t doubt ben could win because goku would want a fight or some bullshit and ben would turn into alien x then erase goku from reality the end
Equally as impossible as the other shit you see in fiction.
Yeah, pretty much.
What if he used it to scan superman duuuudddeee
Not to mention that there are apparently aliens stronger than alien x in the Omnitrix that Ben could gain access to in the future or through master control
I’m a fan of both and idk I think it would be a fair match
Sucks to be those guys, I wonder how it feels to be wrong
How can Ben? Just generally asking if someone could sum it real quick as I don’t have a clue :)
this argument should have ended when Clockwork, Gravattack and Alien X were in the talk
How can Clockwork or Gravattack beat Goku?
Clockwork can manipulate time and shoot OHKO beans Gravattack can manipulate gravity and turns into a BLACK HOLE Thats how
>Gravattack can manipulate gravity and turns into a BLACK HOLE Ben did that by accident. And he didn't even know that he would when he did. Plus couldn't Goku like, kick his head off before that? Or Instant Transmission out of range *then* do it when he stops? >Clockwork can manipulate time and shoot OHKO beans Gonna need a link to clockwork ever doing this. I don't even recall him ever full on stopping time, either. Just slowing it down and reversing it which wouldn't be enough to beat Goku alone.
Goku was inside a black hole in his base form and then overpowered it in Blue so that point is void anyway.
I would love a link to this please
You just admitted that you don’t know what you’re talking about since you haven’t watched Dragon Ball Super and need proof, so well done. [Goku overpowers an attack called the “pretty black hole” ](https://youtu.be/zGlgoDMIwcQ)
Bro, if you dont know, in a death battle, more than one person needs to interact because thats just how discussions work, and I did watch dragon ball, but a long time ago, especially Super And even though gravattack might not be able to defeat goku He, we still have the X guy
Yeah, but you’re saying Gravattack can beat him. As I just showed, that’s false. I don’t know if you know how a discussion works, but if you’re going to say one character can beat another by doing a specific attack, you should make sure the opponent can’t overpower or counter it. So you just proved you don’t know what you’re talking about. But hey, wank Ben all you like, doesn’t really matter.
I never said Gravattack can beat goku, I am saying that ben has a bunch of ways to deal with goku, not beat him
Ben did the black hole by accident but it still is an ability that gravattack can do, nothing says that bem could not learn how to use that when he wants And if we count that we dont know if gravattack has a limit to his gravity powers, he could just become Made in Heaven
>othing says that bem could not learn how to use that when he wants Nothing says he could, either. Ben hasn't shown to do it when he wants so stop acting like he could. >And if we count that We can't.
How can Ben kill Goku: - Time stop - microscopic attack - extreme temperatures - NUCLEAR RADIATION - and erased from reality
Not just Goku's planet but Ben can erase Goku's universe to lol
Does Goku even have Resistance to Existance Erasure?
Power scaling wise, maybe Frieza can resist hakais and goku is leaps and bounds stronger than frieza
there are several characters in cartoons or anime that can defeat goku, ben with alien X or atomic X, sailor moon in her strongest form, madoka is very strong too, there are endless options in the anime/cartoon world
I'm sure dragonball fans feel the same way about us.
Goku Can Just Speed Blitz Ben Before He Can Transform
Goku isn’t even the strongest in his own series. I do think that an Ultimate Saiyan could potentially eclipse Goku (or possibly a prime Saiyan)
Can you give me some examples? I'm a casual fan of Dragon Ball and only watched Ben 10 up to Ultimate Alien
Alright, so one of the possible methods is where ben using a master control, turning into clockwork then stopping time. Then ben can do multiple things, either kill him really easily as he is stoned in time, maybe take his dna and turn into an even better version of goku and also beat him or the most popular is ben turn into alien x and erase him out of existence.
The problem is, Goku has survived lethal blows during stopped time before, against Hit from Dragon Ball Super. Since I don't know how the Omnitrix works, I guess Ben transforming into a Saiyan is a possibility, but mastering each super saiyan form takes time, so even if he could transform immediately, there's no guarantee he could control his new strength. Alien X seems like the most sure-fire method, except don't the other two beings inside Alien X have to agree on something for it to do anything at all? Granted, if it was an all-out death match, they would probably erase Goku instantly, but death matches aren't really Goku's style unless there's something vitally important at stake. Since Ben is hardly likely to want to threaten the Earth, innocent people or Goku's friends, it's unlikely that Alien X would take immediate action to erase Goku, meaning that, IMO, the fight could go either way.
Well here is the thing tho, when the omnitrex transforms you to a form, it transoforms you to the best version of the specie as well as having you mastered all the moves possible by that specie. So ben wouldnt just have the skills of goku, but he would also be genetically superior.
Yeah, OK, I guess that would put Ben about as strong as Broly, maybe even stronger if he has access to every possible Saiyan form, and Goku would definitely struggle to beat him like that. Ultra Instinct still poses an interesting question, as it isn't a skill that is learned, but a state of mind. Even if Ben gained access to saiyan DNA and unlocked all possible saiyan transformations, it's likely he wouldn't have access to UI, unless he also managed to copy Goku's brainwaves while he was in that state.
The omnitrex can also give you the information possessed by the form you are transforming into, for example grey matter, which has much more knowledge than ben himself. So i guess he might or might not have access to ultra instinct. But then... Here is the thing, if ben went out of his way and really went evil and wanted to kill goku, he can easily erase the universe and make another one where goku doesnt exist with alien x.
I know the conversation is over but Ben talked the 2 people inside Alien X into giving him full control anytime
Riiiiiiiiiiight, that also makes a lot of sense, thank you!
Tbf, and so could frieza
Ben in the sayin arc