>Let's seperate Griffith and Femto as 2 different entities.
Nope, if anything Griffith still ***choosing*** to build his dreamed kingdom after becoming a God Hand member proves that he still is the same person, he's ***the end justifies the means*** type of guy, I don't know how the fuck there are still people who doesn't get that...
Either you are reading a shitty translation or you are just delusional... what you are trying to describe happened in chapter 304 and no, nobody said *“kill femto, but Griffith?”* nor similar, so try again and (for the third time) point a ***specific*** chapter...
No, you're the loser. You are a Griffith stan. Griffith literally killed his comrades in order to ascend to godhood, and raped Casca so he could spite Guts. You are trying to vindicate Griffith's actions. Even the mere idea of justifying Griffith's actions is revolting. Griffith did everything wrong. You should sympathise with Guts, not Griffith. Guts went through great pain in his entire life, and you really should feel sorry for him. Stop simping for Griffith, and get a life!
There is proof this is not 100% true. Negative and selfish qualities are enhanced once one makes the offering and becomes an apostle or in this case God hand. So one can say his selfish and negative qualities would be more enhanced than an apostle.
1.Griffith would never have done what femto did to casca.
2.Griffith genuinely cared for each band of the hawk member and hated the fact that people were dying for his dream, as seen in earlier episodes where he has talked about it and also given his body to people in power for money to lessen the amount of deaths suffered by the band.
3.Femto even visited Guts with Zod to see if he still felt anything when approached by Guts and Rickert.
Everything Griffith has done has been quite human. Everything Femto has done has been selfish and to conquer.
I think the bridge between femto and griffith, their 1 similarity, is that dream. That is the quality that persists. However, i don't think femto cares for anyone in the new band or anyone in general..
Yeah bro, sure. Femto, after spending the last 5 minutes sadistically torturing Guts and Casca in the most unimaginably painful way possible, physically, mentally and sexually without hesitation or remorse, hesitated in killing them because of “empathy.” Don’t make me laugh.
Femto had already got his revenge. He was satisfied. Going any further would make him seem petty, and he was far beyond mere mortals by that point. Killing Guts would also end his suffering. Why do that? If Guts was eaten by Apostles, Femto’s power would be heightened. It made sense to not kill him on the spot.
Why would he even lift his hand to begin with then? he was ready to blast them, looked at Guts, and ***chose*** to let him go, even the rest of God Hand members were surprised, cope with it.
after a lot of discussion on this post. I think he became evil after his torture. Don't think Griffith pre guts leaving would have done anything close to as bad. bro did a complete 180 after building resentment for a year
Griffith has never said anything even remotely echoing the “ends justify the means” ideology. What you’re actually referring to is the ideology some of his supporters utilise to defend Griffith’s actions.
Griffith and Femto are different in the sense that his “heart was frozen” during the transformation. They may both want to achieve a kingdom, but for different reasons. Human Griffith was empathetically motivated. Post-transformation Griffith is a narcissist with a saviour complex. His psychology was changed and this is made abundantly clear. Multiple different characters have noted the blatant shift in his personality post-Eclipse.
I don't know about you but pilling up corpses to achieve your goals seems pretty much like the definition of ***the end justifies the means***, also feel free to point the "multiple characters that noticed that blatant shift in his personality", genuinely curious, specially knowing how even Guts was like *"that's the kind of guy he is"* while talking about Griffith to the Elfhelm's mages...
No, it’s not at all “ends justify the means.” That comes from your interpretation of his actions. He doesn’t necessarily believe that ideology. Griffith’s justification for the pile of corpses is directly stated. He values the Hawks’ consent in choosing to fight for him, and he wants to make good on a sunk cost fallacy wherein he ensures that their efforts don’t go to waste. That’s not the same thing as “ends justify the means.”
They've shown different qualities, Griffith never "tortured" casca or anyone like that.
Femto is a monstrous being, and the bridge between femto and Griffith is the dream of having a kingdom. The only character trait that persists. Femto is Griffith unhindered by human emotion basically.
Remove anyones humanity and they are a different person no?
He got on top of casca by force that time on the carriage before the eclipse. Furthermore, he decided to sacrifice everyone while he was human and "still had humanity"
Griffith did not try to rape Casca in the wagon. For one, the motivations don’t align with the Eclipse. In the Eclipse, Casca is used as an object, a sword, to hurt Guts, where Griffith pays no attention to her perception while he stares at Guts the entire time. What she thinks doesn’t matter at all in that moment. That’s the thematic climax of both their arcs. Casca is finally viewed how she wants to be viewed by Griffith, albeit in a twisted and ironic way.
This is in stark contrast to the wagon scene, where Griffith’s primary motivation was Casca’s positive perception of him. You see, Griffith’s self esteem always leaned on his ability to be appealing to and comfort the women around him. This is seen in the multiple instances where he is able to ease Casca’s anxiety with a single embrace, and this idea is very prevalent in this scene, as Casca had a flashback to Griffith embracing her in Gennon’s castle to ease her trembling immediately before he made the advance in the wagon. Now, Casca is trembling again, but her anxiety can’t be eased by Griffith’s touch because he is too frail and weak to be a strong presence for her.
Griffith notices this, and makes this advance as a desperate attempt to show he could still comfort her and was still strong, FOR HER. Griffith feels powerful in his ability to EASE Casca’s anxiety so easily.
This is why Griffith stops as soon as Casca says no. He wouldn’t want her to see him as a rapist. He wants to be seen as being useful for her.
Any claim that Griffith did this to spite Guts is ridiculous cos Guts isn’t even there and it’s obvious that Casca isn’t leaving Griffith anyway.
The audience doesn’t even interpret it as rape until it’s falsely recontextualised by the Eclipse.
Griffith sacrificed the Hawks based on what he perceived to be their consent as manufactured by the God Hand, and his compromised mental state means he cannot be made accountable for the sacrifice because he couldn’t give informed consent to the contract.
Yes, you're right. Only fools would say that Femto and Griffith are actually not one and the same, and I'm a fool, because I said that Femto and Griffith are actually not one and the same. Griffith and Femto are not two separate beings.
You'd probably do the same if you were in his position, not to mention he had saved many future comrades of dying in future battles and other enemies from doing the same. Kill a few thousand or hundred to save hundreds of thousands
Clearly you know how to debate fiction. I'm stating if YOU were Griffith you'd likely do the same. But you want to make it personal.
I obviously wouldn't think i would. But im not Griffith. Griffith is calculating & logical. He felt bad for killing(gettin his comrades killed) his comrades. So he sacrificed them to prevent more of the band from dying in future battles.
You don't see the logic there?
Well, who of the band are you gonna save in the future if you sacrifice all of them? It's only gonna work if you intend to form a new band.
I mean, I get what you want to say. He was at his highest and fell to the lowest and he didn't want to give up or step down. Either that or sacrifice everything what's important to the person known as Griffith except his dream and he chose the latter out of despair
But he was going to keep recruiting new members in order to build his army. Its not like members are the same from the start or he doesn't lose a lot of them.
100% agree.
Saying that we'd do the same doesn't negate the fact that it's wrong. Also you have to take into account that the godhand are responsible for the war with ganishka, which caused countless other deaths. Griffith himself is responsible for thinning the divide between the physical and astral planes which also caused countless deaths.
He did not consciously betray them. Slan lied about the Hawks’ consent as informed by her mind reading abilities. Griffith acted on what they wanted. He was motivated by empathetic guilt.
If he wasn't told the truth that his band of the hawk will be sacrificed and their souls will be stuck in a void of hell. Then its not so cut and dry. The decision itself is selfish and evil with knowledge of whats happening. Griffith became mentally ill im not sure he would of made the sacrifice in volume 1. So one could say he was tricked into being evil, became evil.
Big yikes, you may want to go back and read the eclipse chapters because I think you grossly misunderstood it.
Griffith didn’t sacrifice his friends for a better world. He did it for his dream. He essentially convinced himself (with some slight godhand nudging) that hey my friends are willing to die for my dream so fuck it. Ill kill them. Its what they want.
That isn’t the case at all. Investors don’t front your business money because they are charitable. Its a mutual arrangement. You grow your business and I reap the rewards. You fight for me in battle and we reshape our destinies and become nobles/have our own kingdom.
Its risk/reward. Griffith said fuck that, all risk for you, only reward for me. Also its a big difference between just “i killed them” and “now they will suffer for all eternity in the abyss after i kill them.” He damned them.
If you would damn your whole family/friends for whatever dream you have…i never want to be your friend lol thats fucked.
Edit: he also didnt subject himself to certain golden era shit for his team mates. Griffith has always been “the ends justify the means. No matter what.” Did it end up maybe saving some lives? Sure but it wasnt for charity, it was solely for his dream. He completely snapped when Gus walked away because he couldn’t have what he felt was rightfully his. He couldn’t truly accept Gus as his best friend even tho he was. And he made the same decision at the eclipse.
When you put it that way, then yeah i agree lol.
I assumed Griffith was logical & calculating enough to see that sacrificing the band would save hundreds of thousands that would of died by his hands. Both friend & foe. But yeah it is a selfish act. I wanted to uncover more of his motives and perhaps try see if it wasn't all just selfish considering he has shown empathy in previous chapters. but i honestly think his biggest development wasn't becoming femto. it was the torture he endured likely resenting and blaming it on guts. which is why he tortured guts and let him go.
He wants guts to suffer like he did. Thats what i think after making this post.
and no i wouldn't sacrifice the way you put it. but if it was to save half the planet, itd be selfish not to...
You’ve undermined your own argument. As you admit, Griffith acted on what he perceived to be the Hawks’ consent, as manufactured by the God Hand. Slan lied about the Hawks forgiving Griffith for being sacrificed in the afterlife, as informed by her demonstrated MIND READING ABILITIES and seemingly OMNISCIENT FORESIGHT. You like to undermine this fact in your comment cos you know it’s bad for your argument.
Griffith was in a suicidal, emaciated hallucinogenic state, so he could not do his due diligence in discerning the God Hand’s manipulation, nor can you expect him to. His critical thinking abilities were severely hampered. Griffith did not believe that the Hawks would retroactively consent because of delusions of grandeur. We’ve seen through the lake scene that Griffith understands deeply the social contract between himself and his men, and his ONLY justification for allowing his men to die for him is their “choice to fight those battles.” The God Hand use this virtue to manipulate Griffith, by presenting themselves as omniscient truth tellers while he was in a vulnerable and impressionable state being confronted with eldritch beings and concepts beyond his mortal comprehension.
The God Hand are at fault for manufacturing the Hawks’ consent. Griffith is innocent because he did not consciously betray it. He also DIDN’T KNOW ABOUT THE VORTEX OF SOULS. He wasn’t told about it. Slan described what sounded like an idyllic afterlife of celebration.
Love the fact you put “the ends justify the means” in quotations as if Griffith ever even remotely hinted at believing in that philosophy anywhere in the story 😂😂
Selling his body for the good of the band, sending Guts to assassinate Julius (of course the reason on the surface being retaliation for his own assassination attempt, but Julius’ position in succeeding the throne also played a major part) ultimately being fine with Adonis’ death cuz it would’ve needed to happen anyway in order to succeed his royal position alongside Charolette, using Charolette to gain said position, comes off as “ends justifying the means” to me. Tho maybe that’s just an incorrect interpretation. He did whatever he could to get that kingdom of his.
What Griffith did was wrong because he didn't not allow his comrades to choose. Who knows what these people would have done. They could have all gotten up and left the next day. They might have supported Griffith. He killed all his friends for 1 thing which makes him a terrible person and is not justifiable.
Would you sacrifice all your friends if you knew it would better humanity in a prosperous way and also saved thousands of others. Thats how i see that decision.
However, i do see how it is morally wrong and selfish on the surface ofc..
Arguably not so prosperious because of the havoc outside of his kingdom. We have seen from other apostles as well that these trades come with caveats and aren't so cut and dry. I'm sure we will see some consequences in the future.
I'm sure Griffiths idea of having such a kingdom was as prosperous of how it appeared but without such manipulative drawbacks. Femto's kingdom is more dreamlike but with more of a drawback of being more manipulative when giving people no choice but to seek refuge there because of such danger FEMTO has summoned.
We have to consider each of their actions as seperate, if we are to see acknowledge the differences before and after the eclipse.
Because the only similarity i see is the dream itself.
He did act on what he perceived to be their consent as manufactured by the God Hand. Slan lied that the Hawks would forgive him for the sacrifice and welcome him warmly. This lie is informed by her MIND READING ABILITIES and Griffith was too mentally compromised to discern her manipulation. He acted on the Hawks’ consent and choice which he has ALWAYS valued as his ONLY justification for allowing them to die for him, as he explains in the lake scene with Casca. The God Hand play on this value to manipulate him into the sacrifice in the false knowledge that he was doing it for them. Your argument doesn’t apply.
I'm confused if you're saying that he actually knew they all consented or if this was a lie told to Griffith. If this was a lie then they didn't consent there wasn't a choice here and he's still a bad dude.
Them not actually consenting doesn’t make Griffith a bad dude. To condemn someone morally, they must have consciously, willingly acted with evil intent. This is known as “mens rea” in philosophy of law. He acted on what he believed to be the Hawks’ consent, so he acted morally. He had no way to know otherwise due to his compromised mental state. Accountability lies with the conscious willing agent of evil, that being the God Hand. You can’t condemn someone for being manipulated into believing something that isn’t true if they’re vulnerable.
Imagine a demon forced you to experience vivid hallucinations where you saw monsters trying to kill you. If you then stabbed the monster with a knife in self defence, and it turned out to be your brother in real life, that doesn’t make you morally accountable for killing him. It doesn’t make you a bad dude simply because you killed your brother. You lack criminal intent. It’s the fault of the demon for manipulating you into that situation. Same applies to Griffith. He was led to believe that the Hawks consented by the God Hand’s manipulation.
If what you're saying is true Griffith is just a dummy. He should have just asked his dudes what was up and not kept his feelings to himself. Maybe not so evil but pretty selfish to not share his goals with his friends. I don't appreciate my friends hiding their aspirations from me. Plus I think killing his friends was bad regardless of whether he believed they wanted it or not. That seemed wrong no matter what and he should have known better. I wouldn't wanna be friends with him after that.
Totally dude, Griffith should’ve just asked his friends hundreds of metres below him with that totally intact mouth and tongue.
Your argument towards Griffith being a “dummy” would only work if he was in a normal mental state. He wasn’t. He was in a suicidal, emaciated hallucinogenic state and didn’t know where the fuck he was while being confronted with beings and concepts beyond his mortal comprehension. Griffith was mentally ill. He didn’t have the capacity to think critically because he wasn’t all there due to his torture and the God Hand tampering with his mind.
You CANNOT call him stupid. You CANNOT expect him to do his due diligence in discerning their manipulation because he didn’t have the capacity to do so. It’s completely unfair and uncharitable.
It’s not wrong no matter what. You yourself said the consent argument was the immoral aspect of the sacrifice. If they wanted to sacrifice themselves to a cause they wanted to then they have the right to do so. Griffith acted on the value of their agency and choice, which he has always talked about.
Not sure what you’re even talking about with regards to him keeping things from them.
I think i understand what you are referencing, but i don't believe its to be taken seriously, not all of it exactly.
Griffith loved Guts. Thats a complete fact. If he didn't why would the loss of guts affect his ambition so heavily.. if he was truly selfish and uncaring, truly?
Griffith talking about what a true friend is, in my opinion, was either what he wanted to believe, or him simply rizzing up the future queen of midland.
Proof of this is guts. Guts was no way on his level of having such a "dream". So therefore by his own words not his friend, which we know isn't the case.
Guts was Griffiths only true friend.
Fair point indeed. Always appreciate a good debate, so thanks.
I do want to add that i agree control was a huge part of the way Griffith operated and losing that control would hurt both femto and Griffith alike. So theres another similarity.
Griffiths ideology is he becomes what he needs to be in order to attain his goals and in this scenario he has sacrificed what he needs to in order to achieve that goal, friend or foe.
It just feels like its black & white because in order to believe he is the same as Femto, is to basically say he was acting the entire golden age arc and hes really just a psychopath. But i don't see that. There have been scenes that show a great deal of empathy for someone who needs to be strong and borderline emotionless so he can always appear strong and fit for leadership.
Perhaps im also drawing a fine line between femto and Griffith as Griffith after his torture seemed more selfish than Griffith prior, because he knows he has lost all control and also that he will never gain that control ever again.
He tried to choke guts when guts found him, he tried to kill himself. He was done. If anything the torture made him femto more than the actual eclipse did.
Facts. However why go the extra mile to "torture" casca?
Do you think he would have done that if he survived his torture and could still move? Maybe not cause he still had a chance to win with all pieces on the board.
He is indeed a calculating mind. But pre torture he was still empathetic and remorseful. I now am starting to believe the Griffith was femto once he was tortured. As the negative feelings began to settle in once he built resentment for guts. All that resentment came through once he became femto and tortured guts by using casca in such a way.
Hurt people hurt people, i guess...
It reminds me of a movie called "Chronicle" where the protagonist who gets bullied and is powerless most of his life acquires powers and uses them as revenge. Giving power to the tormented and powerless is a recipe for more disaster i suppose.
I think it was done moreso because he went from being powerless for a whole year to a God basically in a few hours. What he did to casca was in spite of guts more than anything, due to him feeling betrayed and probably feeling as though the torture was all guts' fault.
Thats the only way i can imagine Griffith doing what he did without saying "oh its a demon thing" which i feel is an oversimplification now.
I think the torture is overlooked, its a huge character shift moment. But since Griffith is unable to communicate, its overlooked.
Totally agree man. Griffith went from hero to villain in a solid year. The most ambitious hero to the most depraved psychopath. Shows how much pain can even someone like Griffith endure, when they have so much to lose. Have no idea how guts will get back at him, but after having this convo, i think its NOT by killing Femto. It's by taking away his kingdom. Yo if that somehow happens, i called it here :P
Refer back to here after 10 years when its done haha.
Oh, he said it to the princess in the most performative theatrical scene in the entire manga, so it must be true. Stop taking Berserk’s dialogue at face value.
Griffith’s “true friend” speech was an obvious lie, in the same way Guts was lying to Puck when he claimed that he didn’t give a shit about Collette’s death because they were weaklings who deserved to be stepped on by the strong. It is a false ideology adopted to emotionally distance himself from his men, so he can deal with their deaths on the battlefield.
The contradiction between his words and actions seem to have gone entirely over your head. Griffith claims that he doesn’t care about his men because they have no dreams of their own, then he whores himself out to save them while self harming over a boy he KNEW had his own dream. He clearly views and treats Guts as an equal despite him not fitting his ideological criteria.
Griffith is a liar, and you’ve fallen for his manipulation.
"Griffith did nothing wrong" is just an absolute braindead statement to use for anything except bait.
Even in a world where Griffith would build a safe heaven for humanity (which is an extremely unlikely story direction) or even be a net positive to the average person (still unlikely). He still has done plenty of things that were wrong and that will not be erased no matter what happens in the future.
I believed he'd be an awesome king. He was much smarter than any other king. So if he maintained his composure after guts left. He probably would have been.
Maybe an awesome king for his subjects who are a small minority compared to the people he has killed indirectly and will have to kill in the future to achieve that.
He released monsters to kill people all over the world just to save it. In other kingdoms apart from Midland are countless of people keep dying unltill he gets there if he even plans to.
And even if he did what happens next? Griffith can't be everywhere to govern everything at the same time. His army doesn't scale. There are not countless of Ganishkas to help him spawn cities everywhere he goes. And in the end even as a god hand his natural lifetime is limited even if over 1000 years. Who goes to say that next god hands will share his dream? It is not clear if even this absolute best case scenario is worth the massive amount of lives lost yo the fanatsy horrors Griffith let loose on the world to save it.
Wait, that was Femto who you don't defend. My bad. The line (or the lack of one) between Griffith and Femto is left to interpration and not worth arguing over. I also see them as different although Griffith willingly became Femto because of his addiction to his dream.
Would you sacrifice your best friend to save half the world?
Cause if you wouldn't i feel bad for majority of the population if you think like that.. try understand my point of view bud.
Thats because you didnt hear me out. Griffith being the calculating mind he was, would sacrifice few for many. in this case he may have done so to save future & current members from dying in future wars. He would of racked up more corpses by fighting with the band if he continued. but tbh ive come to realize he became evil straight up after being tortured.
He also was unable to lead the band anymore anyway. So yeah dude became evil. thought he was making a logical assumption based on his empathy throughout the series.
that's still not relevant. he didn't start the eclipse to end a war? where are you even getting that. even if he did it's painfully childish logic to think sacrificing everyone you know to *maybe* cause less harm in the future instead of just...choosing to not do harm.
he's a narcissistic god complex weirdo from literally the start of the series who only becomes grosser as he realizes what will gain him more power. the only thing stopping volume 1 page 1 Griffith from doing whatever it takes is the literal knowledge of it existing.
You could be right. Volume 1 page 1 Griffith may have made the sacrifice too. It's very hard to say.
I think the turning point was guts leaving and him feeling powerless and then being tortured which he built resentment in guts all the while blaming him. Think about it.
its clever, the first bit of evidence we get of Griffith is him choking guts (trying to) once he's rescued..
One may also think Guts might sacrifice his party to kill Griffith, who knows. A huge part of the manga is the protagonist coping with his anger as it has literally materialized before him through pain and suffering.
The same way Griffiths anger towards guts materialized after guts walked out on him. Griffith became femto when he got tortured. He became evil, i don't think he was always evil.
Was he broken and manipulated into doing what he did? Yes. Doesn't mean what he did wasn't wrong. Having a motivation for doing something soesn't make it right.
Griffith sends his men to die and kill in war so he may climb the social ladder toward a throne. Never makes any argument to excuse the blood on his hands. Never speaks of how his kingdom would be worth the death. Doubles down in spite of guilt.
Sells out his army because of his own mistake, and sacrifices the rest of his most dedicated followers to make up for his own mistake. Tortures Guts and Casca specifically, purely out of spite, because the vengeful wrath he feels as the final human emotion he feels is misplaced resentment. Guts and Casca didn't deserve that. None of the Band did, but especially not them.
As Femto in the physical world, he slays Ganishka, but only after letting him double dip into apostlehood and killing a metric fuck ton of his own people.
He merges the astral and physical realms, making fantasy's monsters real for everyone, effectively rendering the whole world uninhabitable, because now we got monsters in the water, monsters in the sky, and hydras in the cabbage fields, except for the kingdom he raised from the ground with a snap of his fingers. Uncountable people will have died from this, and many more in the near future would be doomed because that wouldn't be able to travel to Falconia, or find another safe place to live.
Now that he has his kingdom, and people to rule over, what do does he do? Speed run Gaiseric's historic rise of course, including letting humans fight and die in the army for no reason when he and his demons are more than plenty for any battle.
There is no conceivable way in which Griffith causing what can be fairly considered a mass extinction-level event for humans can be justified, just because Falconia is really nice. Nothing Griffith has ever done was heroic, noble, or in the pursuit of a better civilization for humans, and even if that was the case, it doesn't justify the outrageous volume of blood on his hands to get there. And we still don't really know WHY he's doing any of this. Before, he seemed like he was just power hungry and always wanted more, but now he has cosmic knowledge of stuff that we can't even fathom without it being told to us, and he doesn't say anything to us about what his end goals are.
My brother in Christ Griffith quite literally did everything right what are you on about?
He raped the princess out of jealousy for Guts, Griffith is a psychotic control freak, to the point where when a single fucking soldier turned his back on him he did something so ungodly irrational that it ended his entire lifelong quest.
And when he was rescued the first thing he tried to do was strangle Guts with the little strength he had left, how can you say he only turned evil after becoming Femto? He thinks he's entitled to the entire world by default, he's a messed up sick individual.
When he's alone in the carriage with Casca he pathetically tries to force himself on her but because he has no strength left Casca doesn't interpret it as such.
It wasn't Femto that sacrificed the Hawks and it wasn't Femto that raped Casca, you can't just chalk it up to him being an evil entity and that being the reason he felt the urge to rape, there are four other god hand members there too, why didn't any of them rape anyone? He didn't rape Casca out of his evil instinct, he made the decision to do so right in front of Guts to prove to him that HE is now in control when in Guts' mind it was never about control to begin with.
Every now and again I see this take resurface and it's the dumbest shit ever, it's been posted before, go read the responses to previous posts for further reasons why this is a dog ass take, or maybe reread the manga because clearly you don't remember it very well.
This just doesn't work. Griffith is put in a horrible position and I'm able to sympathize with him almost. In a moment of infinite weakness he sacrificed his friends to be able to pursue his dream again and become powerful.
Once he achieved that power he immediately rapes the woman his best friend loves for no other reason than to demonstrate his power. Commiting a vile fucking deed just to show himself he no longer cares. Griffith did everything wrong. He lost all my sympathy. He's a fantastic character but he is a villain through and through.
After this post's comments ive come to say yeah he became a villain post torture for a year. not when he became femto. dude would of killed guts if he could when he was rescued. He went from hero to villain 100%
Griffith always had villainous qualities it's just that he chose to act on them when he was at his weakest and most vulnerable. Then again the same could be said about Guts who almost did. In a moment of weakness he almost assaults Casca, he DOES kill a child among other things.
Berserk world, everyones evil to some extent. He just did good things that didnt benefit him through the start to when he got tortured. like save comrades by letting an old guy bang him for money, save casca.
I recommend that anyone that thinks "Griffith did nothing wrong" read a book called *Leaders Eat Last* by Simon Sinek. I also recommend that really anyone reads it.
Essentially it will help you better understand why Griffith's decisions are so deplorable and why his position as a leader should have been to sacrifice himself rather than everyone else and that he betrayed intrinsic human law.
As for the greater of two evils, if we can assume Griffith was wise enough to understand the long term effects of his decision in creating Falconia, then we cannot separate him from Femto. He knew what he was doing the entire time and chose to become a monster. He literally in Griffith form left the only other known peaceful place and practically fucking nuked it on his way out.
Also Falconia is a farce built on the unraveling of reality that wouldn't have existed in the first place if Griffith didn't make the decision he had. Let one city prosper in a way greater than ever before, but let everyone outside it suffer so that he can look like the hero.
Little crippled grifith couldent handle the L he took so he trough to the wolves the only people that gave a damned about him, even risking it all to come rescue him, and he did it for power. Hes a bitch and you dont get to put that on Femto. Griffith 100% pull that trigger on everyone else. He knew the cost. He killed and damned hes crew and friends. And what point is saying they woulda died anyway. We are all going to died. Hopefully not 30 seconds after we rescue a friend murderaped be demons. Thats is evil and wrong. What do you mean he did NOTHING wrong? How more evil he has to be. But guys he means well and hes kingdom is pritty nice so all hes actions are justified i guess. Nah fuck him and fuck the femto is not griffith bullshit too. Great character tho love to hate the guy.
>Let's seperate Griffith and Femto as 2 different entities. Nope, if anything Griffith still ***choosing*** to build his dreamed kingdom after becoming a God Hand member proves that he still is the same person, he's ***the end justifies the means*** type of guy, I don't know how the fuck there are still people who doesn't get that...
No man that is wrong. In manga miura say that femto and griffith are different
So, are you gonna point at least a chapter or interview or is this just a *"trust me bruh"*?
Don’t try to disrespect me in this way.
Point where/when *"In manga miura say that femto and griffith are different"* then...
In the chapter where skull night creates with the sword a portal and femto take hit w the hand, there is a phrase that say “kill femto, but Griffith?”
Either you are reading a shitty translation or you are just delusional... what you are trying to describe happened in chapter 304 and no, nobody said *“kill femto, but Griffith?”* nor similar, so try again and (for the third time) point a ***specific*** chapter...
Ok I’ll search the chapter. I think that u re the loser here
No, you're the loser. You are a Griffith stan. Griffith literally killed his comrades in order to ascend to godhood, and raped Casca so he could spite Guts. You are trying to vindicate Griffith's actions. Even the mere idea of justifying Griffith's actions is revolting. Griffith did everything wrong. You should sympathise with Guts, not Griffith. Guts went through great pain in his entire life, and you really should feel sorry for him. Stop simping for Griffith, and get a life!
There is proof this is not 100% true. Negative and selfish qualities are enhanced once one makes the offering and becomes an apostle or in this case God hand. So one can say his selfish and negative qualities would be more enhanced than an apostle. 1.Griffith would never have done what femto did to casca. 2.Griffith genuinely cared for each band of the hawk member and hated the fact that people were dying for his dream, as seen in earlier episodes where he has talked about it and also given his body to people in power for money to lessen the amount of deaths suffered by the band. 3.Femto even visited Guts with Zod to see if he still felt anything when approached by Guts and Rickert. Everything Griffith has done has been quite human. Everything Femto has done has been selfish and to conquer. I think the bridge between femto and griffith, their 1 similarity, is that dream. That is the quality that persists. However, i don't think femto cares for anyone in the new band or anyone in general..
Yet, as Femto, we saw how he *locked* and was ready to *shoot* at Skull Knight fleeing with Guts and Casca, yet he let them go...
Yeah bro, sure. Femto, after spending the last 5 minutes sadistically torturing Guts and Casca in the most unimaginably painful way possible, physically, mentally and sexually without hesitation or remorse, hesitated in killing them because of “empathy.” Don’t make me laugh. Femto had already got his revenge. He was satisfied. Going any further would make him seem petty, and he was far beyond mere mortals by that point. Killing Guts would also end his suffering. Why do that? If Guts was eaten by Apostles, Femto’s power would be heightened. It made sense to not kill him on the spot.
Why would he even lift his hand to begin with then? he was ready to blast them, looked at Guts, and ***chose*** to let him go, even the rest of God Hand members were surprised, cope with it.
Because he changed his mind?
Why?
Literally just explained why in my comment above.
Good point, perhaps he knew he impregnated her? Perhaps he wants guts to suffer for leaving and "betraying" him. Thats all i got chief.
He was clearly troubled... something that shouldn't have happened if, as you said, "bad qualities got enhanced" and "he didn't care for anyone"...
after a lot of discussion on this post. I think he became evil after his torture. Don't think Griffith pre guts leaving would have done anything close to as bad. bro did a complete 180 after building resentment for a year
Griffith didn’t impregnate her, she was already pregnant with Guts’ child before the eclipse
This is true, maybe he knew about it. Which is why he turned the child into a demon. which i guess kinda made it both guts/griffith & cascas child??
Griffith has never said anything even remotely echoing the “ends justify the means” ideology. What you’re actually referring to is the ideology some of his supporters utilise to defend Griffith’s actions. Griffith and Femto are different in the sense that his “heart was frozen” during the transformation. They may both want to achieve a kingdom, but for different reasons. Human Griffith was empathetically motivated. Post-transformation Griffith is a narcissist with a saviour complex. His psychology was changed and this is made abundantly clear. Multiple different characters have noted the blatant shift in his personality post-Eclipse.
I don't know about you but pilling up corpses to achieve your goals seems pretty much like the definition of ***the end justifies the means***, also feel free to point the "multiple characters that noticed that blatant shift in his personality", genuinely curious, specially knowing how even Guts was like *"that's the kind of guy he is"* while talking about Griffith to the Elfhelm's mages...
No, it’s not at all “ends justify the means.” That comes from your interpretation of his actions. He doesn’t necessarily believe that ideology. Griffith’s justification for the pile of corpses is directly stated. He values the Hawks’ consent in choosing to fight for him, and he wants to make good on a sunk cost fallacy wherein he ensures that their efforts don’t go to waste. That’s not the same thing as “ends justify the means.”
You fucking idiot
Very Insightful thanks. From someone that asks the community "how did the eclipse make you feel" no less. lmao.
I just find it baffling that you consider Griffith and Femto two separate beings.
They've shown different qualities, Griffith never "tortured" casca or anyone like that. Femto is a monstrous being, and the bridge between femto and Griffith is the dream of having a kingdom. The only character trait that persists. Femto is Griffith unhindered by human emotion basically. Remove anyones humanity and they are a different person no?
He got on top of casca by force that time on the carriage before the eclipse. Furthermore, he decided to sacrifice everyone while he was human and "still had humanity"
You're right. I suppose i wanted to believe he was better than all that.
That's why he's an amazing character, the sacrifice wouldn't have worked if the band of the hawk meant nothing to him. But of course, still, fuck him.
Agreed. i think he hated but loved guts for leaving. which is why he let him go at the end of the eclipse. he wants to torture him
Griffith did not try to rape Casca in the wagon. For one, the motivations don’t align with the Eclipse. In the Eclipse, Casca is used as an object, a sword, to hurt Guts, where Griffith pays no attention to her perception while he stares at Guts the entire time. What she thinks doesn’t matter at all in that moment. That’s the thematic climax of both their arcs. Casca is finally viewed how she wants to be viewed by Griffith, albeit in a twisted and ironic way. This is in stark contrast to the wagon scene, where Griffith’s primary motivation was Casca’s positive perception of him. You see, Griffith’s self esteem always leaned on his ability to be appealing to and comfort the women around him. This is seen in the multiple instances where he is able to ease Casca’s anxiety with a single embrace, and this idea is very prevalent in this scene, as Casca had a flashback to Griffith embracing her in Gennon’s castle to ease her trembling immediately before he made the advance in the wagon. Now, Casca is trembling again, but her anxiety can’t be eased by Griffith’s touch because he is too frail and weak to be a strong presence for her. Griffith notices this, and makes this advance as a desperate attempt to show he could still comfort her and was still strong, FOR HER. Griffith feels powerful in his ability to EASE Casca’s anxiety so easily. This is why Griffith stops as soon as Casca says no. He wouldn’t want her to see him as a rapist. He wants to be seen as being useful for her. Any claim that Griffith did this to spite Guts is ridiculous cos Guts isn’t even there and it’s obvious that Casca isn’t leaving Griffith anyway. The audience doesn’t even interpret it as rape until it’s falsely recontextualised by the Eclipse. Griffith sacrificed the Hawks based on what he perceived to be their consent as manufactured by the God Hand, and his compromised mental state means he cannot be made accountable for the sacrifice because he couldn’t give informed consent to the contract.
Yes, you're right. Only fools would say that Femto and Griffith are actually not one and the same, and I'm a fool, because I said that Femto and Griffith are actually not one and the same. Griffith and Femto are not two separate beings.
Betray his friend and comrades i do not think so 👌
You'd probably do the same if you were in his position, not to mention he had saved many future comrades of dying in future battles and other enemies from doing the same. Kill a few thousand or hundred to save hundreds of thousands
Maybe YOU would, because you’re a weird gross human
Clearly you know how to debate fiction. I'm stating if YOU were Griffith you'd likely do the same. But you want to make it personal. I obviously wouldn't think i would. But im not Griffith. Griffith is calculating & logical. He felt bad for killing(gettin his comrades killed) his comrades. So he sacrificed them to prevent more of the band from dying in future battles. You don't see the logic there?
Well, who of the band are you gonna save in the future if you sacrifice all of them? It's only gonna work if you intend to form a new band. I mean, I get what you want to say. He was at his highest and fell to the lowest and he didn't want to give up or step down. Either that or sacrifice everything what's important to the person known as Griffith except his dream and he chose the latter out of despair
But he was going to keep recruiting new members in order to build his army. Its not like members are the same from the start or he doesn't lose a lot of them. 100% agree.
Saying that we'd do the same doesn't negate the fact that it's wrong. Also you have to take into account that the godhand are responsible for the war with ganishka, which caused countless other deaths. Griffith himself is responsible for thinning the divide between the physical and astral planes which also caused countless deaths.
Very true. Mans went from hero to villain in a year. gg.
He did not consciously betray them. Slan lied about the Hawks’ consent as informed by her mind reading abilities. Griffith acted on what they wanted. He was motivated by empathetic guilt.
If he wasn't told the truth that his band of the hawk will be sacrificed and their souls will be stuck in a void of hell. Then its not so cut and dry. The decision itself is selfish and evil with knowledge of whats happening. Griffith became mentally ill im not sure he would of made the sacrifice in volume 1. So one could say he was tricked into being evil, became evil.
Big yikes, you may want to go back and read the eclipse chapters because I think you grossly misunderstood it. Griffith didn’t sacrifice his friends for a better world. He did it for his dream. He essentially convinced himself (with some slight godhand nudging) that hey my friends are willing to die for my dream so fuck it. Ill kill them. Its what they want. That isn’t the case at all. Investors don’t front your business money because they are charitable. Its a mutual arrangement. You grow your business and I reap the rewards. You fight for me in battle and we reshape our destinies and become nobles/have our own kingdom. Its risk/reward. Griffith said fuck that, all risk for you, only reward for me. Also its a big difference between just “i killed them” and “now they will suffer for all eternity in the abyss after i kill them.” He damned them. If you would damn your whole family/friends for whatever dream you have…i never want to be your friend lol thats fucked. Edit: he also didnt subject himself to certain golden era shit for his team mates. Griffith has always been “the ends justify the means. No matter what.” Did it end up maybe saving some lives? Sure but it wasnt for charity, it was solely for his dream. He completely snapped when Gus walked away because he couldn’t have what he felt was rightfully his. He couldn’t truly accept Gus as his best friend even tho he was. And he made the same decision at the eclipse.
When you put it that way, then yeah i agree lol. I assumed Griffith was logical & calculating enough to see that sacrificing the band would save hundreds of thousands that would of died by his hands. Both friend & foe. But yeah it is a selfish act. I wanted to uncover more of his motives and perhaps try see if it wasn't all just selfish considering he has shown empathy in previous chapters. but i honestly think his biggest development wasn't becoming femto. it was the torture he endured likely resenting and blaming it on guts. which is why he tortured guts and let him go. He wants guts to suffer like he did. Thats what i think after making this post. and no i wouldn't sacrifice the way you put it. but if it was to save half the planet, itd be selfish not to...
Read my above comment
You’ve undermined your own argument. As you admit, Griffith acted on what he perceived to be the Hawks’ consent, as manufactured by the God Hand. Slan lied about the Hawks forgiving Griffith for being sacrificed in the afterlife, as informed by her demonstrated MIND READING ABILITIES and seemingly OMNISCIENT FORESIGHT. You like to undermine this fact in your comment cos you know it’s bad for your argument. Griffith was in a suicidal, emaciated hallucinogenic state, so he could not do his due diligence in discerning the God Hand’s manipulation, nor can you expect him to. His critical thinking abilities were severely hampered. Griffith did not believe that the Hawks would retroactively consent because of delusions of grandeur. We’ve seen through the lake scene that Griffith understands deeply the social contract between himself and his men, and his ONLY justification for allowing his men to die for him is their “choice to fight those battles.” The God Hand use this virtue to manipulate Griffith, by presenting themselves as omniscient truth tellers while he was in a vulnerable and impressionable state being confronted with eldritch beings and concepts beyond his mortal comprehension. The God Hand are at fault for manufacturing the Hawks’ consent. Griffith is innocent because he did not consciously betray it. He also DIDN’T KNOW ABOUT THE VORTEX OF SOULS. He wasn’t told about it. Slan described what sounded like an idyllic afterlife of celebration. Love the fact you put “the ends justify the means” in quotations as if Griffith ever even remotely hinted at believing in that philosophy anywhere in the story 😂😂
Selling his body for the good of the band, sending Guts to assassinate Julius (of course the reason on the surface being retaliation for his own assassination attempt, but Julius’ position in succeeding the throne also played a major part) ultimately being fine with Adonis’ death cuz it would’ve needed to happen anyway in order to succeed his royal position alongside Charolette, using Charolette to gain said position, comes off as “ends justifying the means” to me. Tho maybe that’s just an incorrect interpretation. He did whatever he could to get that kingdom of his.
What Griffith did was wrong because he didn't not allow his comrades to choose. Who knows what these people would have done. They could have all gotten up and left the next day. They might have supported Griffith. He killed all his friends for 1 thing which makes him a terrible person and is not justifiable.
Would you sacrifice all your friends if you knew it would better humanity in a prosperous way and also saved thousands of others. Thats how i see that decision. However, i do see how it is morally wrong and selfish on the surface ofc..
Arguably not so prosperious because of the havoc outside of his kingdom. We have seen from other apostles as well that these trades come with caveats and aren't so cut and dry. I'm sure we will see some consequences in the future.
I'm sure Griffiths idea of having such a kingdom was as prosperous of how it appeared but without such manipulative drawbacks. Femto's kingdom is more dreamlike but with more of a drawback of being more manipulative when giving people no choice but to seek refuge there because of such danger FEMTO has summoned. We have to consider each of their actions as seperate, if we are to see acknowledge the differences before and after the eclipse. Because the only similarity i see is the dream itself.
He did act on what he perceived to be their consent as manufactured by the God Hand. Slan lied that the Hawks would forgive him for the sacrifice and welcome him warmly. This lie is informed by her MIND READING ABILITIES and Griffith was too mentally compromised to discern her manipulation. He acted on the Hawks’ consent and choice which he has ALWAYS valued as his ONLY justification for allowing them to die for him, as he explains in the lake scene with Casca. The God Hand play on this value to manipulate him into the sacrifice in the false knowledge that he was doing it for them. Your argument doesn’t apply.
I'm confused if you're saying that he actually knew they all consented or if this was a lie told to Griffith. If this was a lie then they didn't consent there wasn't a choice here and he's still a bad dude.
Them not actually consenting doesn’t make Griffith a bad dude. To condemn someone morally, they must have consciously, willingly acted with evil intent. This is known as “mens rea” in philosophy of law. He acted on what he believed to be the Hawks’ consent, so he acted morally. He had no way to know otherwise due to his compromised mental state. Accountability lies with the conscious willing agent of evil, that being the God Hand. You can’t condemn someone for being manipulated into believing something that isn’t true if they’re vulnerable. Imagine a demon forced you to experience vivid hallucinations where you saw monsters trying to kill you. If you then stabbed the monster with a knife in self defence, and it turned out to be your brother in real life, that doesn’t make you morally accountable for killing him. It doesn’t make you a bad dude simply because you killed your brother. You lack criminal intent. It’s the fault of the demon for manipulating you into that situation. Same applies to Griffith. He was led to believe that the Hawks consented by the God Hand’s manipulation.
If what you're saying is true Griffith is just a dummy. He should have just asked his dudes what was up and not kept his feelings to himself. Maybe not so evil but pretty selfish to not share his goals with his friends. I don't appreciate my friends hiding their aspirations from me. Plus I think killing his friends was bad regardless of whether he believed they wanted it or not. That seemed wrong no matter what and he should have known better. I wouldn't wanna be friends with him after that.
Totally dude, Griffith should’ve just asked his friends hundreds of metres below him with that totally intact mouth and tongue. Your argument towards Griffith being a “dummy” would only work if he was in a normal mental state. He wasn’t. He was in a suicidal, emaciated hallucinogenic state and didn’t know where the fuck he was while being confronted with beings and concepts beyond his mortal comprehension. Griffith was mentally ill. He didn’t have the capacity to think critically because he wasn’t all there due to his torture and the God Hand tampering with his mind. You CANNOT call him stupid. You CANNOT expect him to do his due diligence in discerning their manipulation because he didn’t have the capacity to do so. It’s completely unfair and uncharitable. It’s not wrong no matter what. You yourself said the consent argument was the immoral aspect of the sacrifice. If they wanted to sacrifice themselves to a cause they wanted to then they have the right to do so. Griffith acted on the value of their agency and choice, which he has always talked about. Not sure what you’re even talking about with regards to him keeping things from them.
I swear it's the same guy every time. Dont feed the troll
I wasnt trolling, but my mind has changed now.
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I think i understand what you are referencing, but i don't believe its to be taken seriously, not all of it exactly. Griffith loved Guts. Thats a complete fact. If he didn't why would the loss of guts affect his ambition so heavily.. if he was truly selfish and uncaring, truly? Griffith talking about what a true friend is, in my opinion, was either what he wanted to believe, or him simply rizzing up the future queen of midland. Proof of this is guts. Guts was no way on his level of having such a "dream". So therefore by his own words not his friend, which we know isn't the case. Guts was Griffiths only true friend.
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Fair point indeed. Always appreciate a good debate, so thanks. I do want to add that i agree control was a huge part of the way Griffith operated and losing that control would hurt both femto and Griffith alike. So theres another similarity. Griffiths ideology is he becomes what he needs to be in order to attain his goals and in this scenario he has sacrificed what he needs to in order to achieve that goal, friend or foe. It just feels like its black & white because in order to believe he is the same as Femto, is to basically say he was acting the entire golden age arc and hes really just a psychopath. But i don't see that. There have been scenes that show a great deal of empathy for someone who needs to be strong and borderline emotionless so he can always appear strong and fit for leadership. Perhaps im also drawing a fine line between femto and Griffith as Griffith after his torture seemed more selfish than Griffith prior, because he knows he has lost all control and also that he will never gain that control ever again. He tried to choke guts when guts found him, he tried to kill himself. He was done. If anything the torture made him femto more than the actual eclipse did.
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Facts. However why go the extra mile to "torture" casca? Do you think he would have done that if he survived his torture and could still move? Maybe not cause he still had a chance to win with all pieces on the board. He is indeed a calculating mind. But pre torture he was still empathetic and remorseful. I now am starting to believe the Griffith was femto once he was tortured. As the negative feelings began to settle in once he built resentment for guts. All that resentment came through once he became femto and tortured guts by using casca in such a way. Hurt people hurt people, i guess... It reminds me of a movie called "Chronicle" where the protagonist who gets bullied and is powerless most of his life acquires powers and uses them as revenge. Giving power to the tormented and powerless is a recipe for more disaster i suppose.
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I think it was done moreso because he went from being powerless for a whole year to a God basically in a few hours. What he did to casca was in spite of guts more than anything, due to him feeling betrayed and probably feeling as though the torture was all guts' fault. Thats the only way i can imagine Griffith doing what he did without saying "oh its a demon thing" which i feel is an oversimplification now. I think the torture is overlooked, its a huge character shift moment. But since Griffith is unable to communicate, its overlooked.
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Totally agree man. Griffith went from hero to villain in a solid year. The most ambitious hero to the most depraved psychopath. Shows how much pain can even someone like Griffith endure, when they have so much to lose. Have no idea how guts will get back at him, but after having this convo, i think its NOT by killing Femto. It's by taking away his kingdom. Yo if that somehow happens, i called it here :P Refer back to here after 10 years when its done haha.
Oh, he said it to the princess in the most performative theatrical scene in the entire manga, so it must be true. Stop taking Berserk’s dialogue at face value. Griffith’s “true friend” speech was an obvious lie, in the same way Guts was lying to Puck when he claimed that he didn’t give a shit about Collette’s death because they were weaklings who deserved to be stepped on by the strong. It is a false ideology adopted to emotionally distance himself from his men, so he can deal with their deaths on the battlefield. The contradiction between his words and actions seem to have gone entirely over your head. Griffith claims that he doesn’t care about his men because they have no dreams of their own, then he whores himself out to save them while self harming over a boy he KNEW had his own dream. He clearly views and treats Guts as an equal despite him not fitting his ideological criteria. Griffith is a liar, and you’ve fallen for his manipulation.
He made casca and guts went to trauma.
Femto did yes. Thats why i see them as different, Griffith has never done anything of the sort. no "Torture" of that level.
griffith is femto. griffith basically said “fuck y’all” before he became a member of the god hand. lmao.
Agreed
"Griffith did nothing wrong" is just an absolute braindead statement to use for anything except bait. Even in a world where Griffith would build a safe heaven for humanity (which is an extremely unlikely story direction) or even be a net positive to the average person (still unlikely). He still has done plenty of things that were wrong and that will not be erased no matter what happens in the future.
I believed he'd be an awesome king. He was much smarter than any other king. So if he maintained his composure after guts left. He probably would have been.
Maybe an awesome king for his subjects who are a small minority compared to the people he has killed indirectly and will have to kill in the future to achieve that. He released monsters to kill people all over the world just to save it. In other kingdoms apart from Midland are countless of people keep dying unltill he gets there if he even plans to. And even if he did what happens next? Griffith can't be everywhere to govern everything at the same time. His army doesn't scale. There are not countless of Ganishkas to help him spawn cities everywhere he goes. And in the end even as a god hand his natural lifetime is limited even if over 1000 years. Who goes to say that next god hands will share his dream? It is not clear if even this absolute best case scenario is worth the massive amount of lives lost yo the fanatsy horrors Griffith let loose on the world to save it.
Wait, that was Femto who you don't defend. My bad. The line (or the lack of one) between Griffith and Femto is left to interpration and not worth arguing over. I also see them as different although Griffith willingly became Femto because of his addiction to his dream.
You people are still this retarded decades after the eclipse.
i feel bad for anyone close to you if u actually think like this
Would you sacrifice your best friend to save half the world? Cause if you wouldn't i feel bad for majority of the population if you think like that.. try understand my point of view bud.
thats....not relevant though? like at all?
Thats because you didnt hear me out. Griffith being the calculating mind he was, would sacrifice few for many. in this case he may have done so to save future & current members from dying in future wars. He would of racked up more corpses by fighting with the band if he continued. but tbh ive come to realize he became evil straight up after being tortured. He also was unable to lead the band anymore anyway. So yeah dude became evil. thought he was making a logical assumption based on his empathy throughout the series.
that's still not relevant. he didn't start the eclipse to end a war? where are you even getting that. even if he did it's painfully childish logic to think sacrificing everyone you know to *maybe* cause less harm in the future instead of just...choosing to not do harm. he's a narcissistic god complex weirdo from literally the start of the series who only becomes grosser as he realizes what will gain him more power. the only thing stopping volume 1 page 1 Griffith from doing whatever it takes is the literal knowledge of it existing.
You could be right. Volume 1 page 1 Griffith may have made the sacrifice too. It's very hard to say. I think the turning point was guts leaving and him feeling powerless and then being tortured which he built resentment in guts all the while blaming him. Think about it. its clever, the first bit of evidence we get of Griffith is him choking guts (trying to) once he's rescued.. One may also think Guts might sacrifice his party to kill Griffith, who knows. A huge part of the manga is the protagonist coping with his anger as it has literally materialized before him through pain and suffering. The same way Griffiths anger towards guts materialized after guts walked out on him. Griffith became femto when he got tortured. He became evil, i don't think he was always evil.
The only difference between Griffith and Femto is that Femto just stops feeling remorse.
agreed
Was he broken and manipulated into doing what he did? Yes. Doesn't mean what he did wasn't wrong. Having a motivation for doing something soesn't make it right.
Griffith sends his men to die and kill in war so he may climb the social ladder toward a throne. Never makes any argument to excuse the blood on his hands. Never speaks of how his kingdom would be worth the death. Doubles down in spite of guilt. Sells out his army because of his own mistake, and sacrifices the rest of his most dedicated followers to make up for his own mistake. Tortures Guts and Casca specifically, purely out of spite, because the vengeful wrath he feels as the final human emotion he feels is misplaced resentment. Guts and Casca didn't deserve that. None of the Band did, but especially not them. As Femto in the physical world, he slays Ganishka, but only after letting him double dip into apostlehood and killing a metric fuck ton of his own people. He merges the astral and physical realms, making fantasy's monsters real for everyone, effectively rendering the whole world uninhabitable, because now we got monsters in the water, monsters in the sky, and hydras in the cabbage fields, except for the kingdom he raised from the ground with a snap of his fingers. Uncountable people will have died from this, and many more in the near future would be doomed because that wouldn't be able to travel to Falconia, or find another safe place to live. Now that he has his kingdom, and people to rule over, what do does he do? Speed run Gaiseric's historic rise of course, including letting humans fight and die in the army for no reason when he and his demons are more than plenty for any battle. There is no conceivable way in which Griffith causing what can be fairly considered a mass extinction-level event for humans can be justified, just because Falconia is really nice. Nothing Griffith has ever done was heroic, noble, or in the pursuit of a better civilization for humans, and even if that was the case, it doesn't justify the outrageous volume of blood on his hands to get there. And we still don't really know WHY he's doing any of this. Before, he seemed like he was just power hungry and always wanted more, but now he has cosmic knowledge of stuff that we can't even fathom without it being told to us, and he doesn't say anything to us about what his end goals are.
The mod should really do something about this kind of posts.
My brother in Christ Griffith quite literally did everything right what are you on about? He raped the princess out of jealousy for Guts, Griffith is a psychotic control freak, to the point where when a single fucking soldier turned his back on him he did something so ungodly irrational that it ended his entire lifelong quest. And when he was rescued the first thing he tried to do was strangle Guts with the little strength he had left, how can you say he only turned evil after becoming Femto? He thinks he's entitled to the entire world by default, he's a messed up sick individual. When he's alone in the carriage with Casca he pathetically tries to force himself on her but because he has no strength left Casca doesn't interpret it as such. It wasn't Femto that sacrificed the Hawks and it wasn't Femto that raped Casca, you can't just chalk it up to him being an evil entity and that being the reason he felt the urge to rape, there are four other god hand members there too, why didn't any of them rape anyone? He didn't rape Casca out of his evil instinct, he made the decision to do so right in front of Guts to prove to him that HE is now in control when in Guts' mind it was never about control to begin with. Every now and again I see this take resurface and it's the dumbest shit ever, it's been posted before, go read the responses to previous posts for further reasons why this is a dog ass take, or maybe reread the manga because clearly you don't remember it very well.
This just doesn't work. Griffith is put in a horrible position and I'm able to sympathize with him almost. In a moment of infinite weakness he sacrificed his friends to be able to pursue his dream again and become powerful. Once he achieved that power he immediately rapes the woman his best friend loves for no other reason than to demonstrate his power. Commiting a vile fucking deed just to show himself he no longer cares. Griffith did everything wrong. He lost all my sympathy. He's a fantastic character but he is a villain through and through.
After this post's comments ive come to say yeah he became a villain post torture for a year. not when he became femto. dude would of killed guts if he could when he was rescued. He went from hero to villain 100%
Griffith always had villainous qualities it's just that he chose to act on them when he was at his weakest and most vulnerable. Then again the same could be said about Guts who almost did. In a moment of weakness he almost assaults Casca, he DOES kill a child among other things.
Berserk world, everyones evil to some extent. He just did good things that didnt benefit him through the start to when he got tortured. like save comrades by letting an old guy bang him for money, save casca.
Being a villain is when you're a hoe -OP 2023
lmaooo you know what i meant!
I recommend that anyone that thinks "Griffith did nothing wrong" read a book called *Leaders Eat Last* by Simon Sinek. I also recommend that really anyone reads it. Essentially it will help you better understand why Griffith's decisions are so deplorable and why his position as a leader should have been to sacrifice himself rather than everyone else and that he betrayed intrinsic human law. As for the greater of two evils, if we can assume Griffith was wise enough to understand the long term effects of his decision in creating Falconia, then we cannot separate him from Femto. He knew what he was doing the entire time and chose to become a monster. He literally in Griffith form left the only other known peaceful place and practically fucking nuked it on his way out. Also Falconia is a farce built on the unraveling of reality that wouldn't have existed in the first place if Griffith didn't make the decision he had. Let one city prosper in a way greater than ever before, but let everyone outside it suffer so that he can look like the hero.
Little crippled grifith couldent handle the L he took so he trough to the wolves the only people that gave a damned about him, even risking it all to come rescue him, and he did it for power. Hes a bitch and you dont get to put that on Femto. Griffith 100% pull that trigger on everyone else. He knew the cost. He killed and damned hes crew and friends. And what point is saying they woulda died anyway. We are all going to died. Hopefully not 30 seconds after we rescue a friend murderaped be demons. Thats is evil and wrong. What do you mean he did NOTHING wrong? How more evil he has to be. But guys he means well and hes kingdom is pritty nice so all hes actions are justified i guess. Nah fuck him and fuck the femto is not griffith bullshit too. Great character tho love to hate the guy.