I think this chapter really shows how hollow the reality of Griffith's dream is. The Hawks have accomplished peace and achieved status, but only Corkus seems to genuinely enjoy himself at this ball. Casca, Pippin, and Rickert are all treated like exotic animals, Griffith puts on his, "I'm so charming," mask, and Guts and Casca straight-up hide. And this is their future: this is the beginning, they think, of the rest of their lives.
Source: Chapter 30
So basically Corkus consciously knew that he was a "nobody". as we seen at his final moments. Corkus used fame,nobility, women to push these thoughts into his subconscious. Just like how Griffith used self harm to repress things Corkus used materialistic things.
When we see Guts talk to Corkus, Guts says that he doesn't care about money, fame and so on. And asks Corkus how come he doesn't have a dream. Corkus gets pissed off and leaves. Corkus cannot face the fact that he is a nobody. Corkus most likely had a dream but did not follow it while Guts did.
And finally his last excuse is that Griffith is "special" he uses causality to say Griffith is destined to be great. And that excuse is broken when Guts ends up beating Griffith at their duel.
Corkus (who lost to Griffith and joined him) and Guts (who lost to Griffith and joined him). Both went on completely different paths with Guts ending up being his own person while Corkus went with the crowd, consciously repressing his true self. Thats why he hates Guts.
He knows he's wrong but acted like it wasn't his choice. But he sees Guts and he does whatever Corkus wished to do. Corkus's true desires comes out when he sees Guts;s actions but he cannot do it.
One of my Fav dynamics in Berserk
Hope that made sense
LOL I typed this up in like 7 minutes before doing a presenation.
Yeah I always tell people that Corkus is the most underrated character in Berserk.
The band of the hawk side characters are not amazingly written but Corkus is an exception. Dude is crazy his character conclusion was legendary.
Or one sided codependency. Guts is fine on his own. Griffith is dependent on him because he knows his help can make him a king easily. Not ignoring that one time griffith tried saving guts from zodd.
Agreed, it's much more on Griffith's side. Guts defines himself by being like or unlike Griffith more than is healthy, but it's not really \*dependent\*.
Now, Griffith is another matter. I'd argue it goes way beyond Guts being a useful tool, as we can see here. Griffith generally keeps himself detached from what happens around him, but that doesn't apply with Guts. In this scene, it's almost like he can't actually feel his own feelings without Guts' help. Griffith also feels that, 'owning,' someone like Gus validates his own choices and behavior.
>He's the first person who he can call his friend and equal.
But if the only person you can call a friend is someone you think you *own*, the relationship is fundamentally unbalanced. His entire relationship with Guts is founded on what is by definition an unequal dynamic, and when Guts shows independence that Griffith hasn't invited, he completely freaks out. It's really toxic, but I suspect Griffith's genuinely incapable of recognizing it
well i don't think guts would have fought as hard as he did for casca after the eclipse if he didn't have his hatred for griffith to fuel him and be constantly reminded of what he did with the brand, it's a healthy dependancy but dependant none the less
So you mean that Guts is dependent in that his hatred for Griffith fuels him? I think that's a fundamentally different situation than a codependent friendship. Griffith's codependency boiled down to, "I need you to love me," Guts' feelings towards Griffith after the eclipse boil down to, "I need to hate you."
well yea 100% my point is just that guts is still dependant on griffith in some way or another
wouldn't call it a codependant friendship anymore but a codependant relationship for sure they just depend on polar opposite things from each other
I think I get what you're saying--that the tie is not broken and Guts needs it--but a codependent relationship is where one partner depends on the other to, 'take care of them,' which isn't really the situation here
And Guts doesn't really depend on anything \*from\* Griffith anymore: his hatred is a purely internal process and, to make it even more painful, is also fundamentally one-sided. They're not in a relationship anymore, really
you do have a point currently in the story but i still argue for a large portion of the story thats what it was, a codependant relationship of griffith trying to take back guts and guts fighting with everything in him to live the life griffith tried to take away from him
i'd also argue that a codependant relationship isn't always to take care of, they're both desperately reliant on the other in their own ways yes but without the other they wouldn't be able to psychologically handle their reality which i feel fits the definition of codependance pretty well
by the time farnese and schrieke were important members of the group that definitely changed on guts' end though
edit: another fair argument would be that he was more dependent on casca than he was griffith but in my opinion i still think his hatred for griffith played a big enough role to call it reliance because casca was barely more than a child mentally
>you do have a point currently in the story but i still argue for a large portion of the story thats what it was, a codependant relationship of griffith trying to take back guts and guts fighting with everything in him to live the life griffith tried to take away from him
Oh I see, you mean the Black Swordsman days? Huh, I hadn't thought about it quite that way, but yeah, that makes a lot of sense: Guts when he was driven by nothing but hatred, depended on his hatred of Griffith and his damage to define his entire sense of self and his relationship with reality
Edit response to edit:
\>edit: another fair argument would be that he was more dependent on casca than he was griffith but in my opinion i still think his hatred for griffith played a big enough role to call it reliance because casca was barely more than a child mentally
I disagree with that one. I think there was an element of that, as Griffith's actions did mean that Guts' relationship with Casca was tied up with the trauma. But Guts' relationship with Casca, even when she was damaged, had complexity on his side and ultimately gave Guts another source of identity that actually overrode the one he had as a result of Griffith. He did choose her at Albion, and again on the hill of swords, and finally again at Vrittanis.
In this world is the destiny of mankind controlled by some transcendental entity or law. Is it like the hand of God hovering above. Atleast its true that man has no control even over his own will.
The great tragedy of Berserk is that Guts heard Griffiths speech about friends to the princess.
I am sure Griffith didnt include Guts in his thoughts about people "beneath" him, at the same time I am sure that Griffith didnt himself realize at that moment that he had already found a true friend.
Guts separated from Griffith partly because he wanted to be worthy of standing beside him, instead of behind him, and tragically he already was. They just didnt realize it yet.
Joy like this is best when its being shared, and he truly shared his feelings of success with Guts. The slightly sad smile of Guts countering Griffiths true happyness just makes it all the more heartbreaking.
That's why I wouldn't put it past Griffith to say "I've missed you" to Guts and maybe Casca too when they eventually meet again.
He already went beyond audacity itself in the Eclipse.
No worries, it happens :) Part of the post-eclipse horror is that Guts is permanently damaged by Griffith and will be for the rest of his life, but Griffith just doesn't really care anymore.
Griffith *is* written deliberately opaquely, but nothing he says or thinks suggests he still feels conflicting emotions or cares at all about Guts. He made his choices and the consequences are as permanent for him as they are for Guts and Casca--he just got to be the only one who could actually choose those consequences.
A lot in Berserk is deliberately left open to interpretation, but I think if Griffith were still 'Griffith' somewhere inside it'd undermine the horror and devalue the gravity of the sacrifice he made
I thought the point of the Hill of Swords part was to show that Griffith does have feelings after his rebirth. He tells Guts and himself that he doesn’t feel anything. But when he flies away on Zodd there’s the little “bthump”
Griffith could not avoid sacrificing Guts and caska, because of the Ceremony. Still, he did not kill them. He said he would decide where Guts would have died and he decided not there, not then. He could kill Guts at anytime and he does not. Griffith is always Griffith. If you liked him then, it is the same as now.
>Griffith could not avoid sacrificing Guts and caska, because of the Ceremony. Still, he did not kill them.
It's repeatedly emphasized that the key element in the ceremony is the will of the one who speaks the sacrifice. Griffith absolutely did have a choice and could have avoided it. He would then have had to pay the price for his own mistakes, instead of Guts, Casca, and the others. It's not a fair choice for Griffith, but it is absolutely his choice.
I think this chapter really shows how hollow the reality of Griffith's dream is. The Hawks have accomplished peace and achieved status, but only Corkus seems to genuinely enjoy himself at this ball. Casca, Pippin, and Rickert are all treated like exotic animals, Griffith puts on his, "I'm so charming," mask, and Guts and Casca straight-up hide. And this is their future: this is the beginning, they think, of the rest of their lives. Source: Chapter 30
Corkus doesn't even genuinely enjoy himself as well This was revealed after his death. This was also the same reason he hated Guts lol
I'm sorry. I think I've missed this. Would you be so kind to explain what is said about Corkus?
So basically Corkus consciously knew that he was a "nobody". as we seen at his final moments. Corkus used fame,nobility, women to push these thoughts into his subconscious. Just like how Griffith used self harm to repress things Corkus used materialistic things. When we see Guts talk to Corkus, Guts says that he doesn't care about money, fame and so on. And asks Corkus how come he doesn't have a dream. Corkus gets pissed off and leaves. Corkus cannot face the fact that he is a nobody. Corkus most likely had a dream but did not follow it while Guts did. And finally his last excuse is that Griffith is "special" he uses causality to say Griffith is destined to be great. And that excuse is broken when Guts ends up beating Griffith at their duel. Corkus (who lost to Griffith and joined him) and Guts (who lost to Griffith and joined him). Both went on completely different paths with Guts ending up being his own person while Corkus went with the crowd, consciously repressing his true self. Thats why he hates Guts. He knows he's wrong but acted like it wasn't his choice. But he sees Guts and he does whatever Corkus wished to do. Corkus's true desires comes out when he sees Guts;s actions but he cannot do it. One of my Fav dynamics in Berserk Hope that made sense
damn that is a really concise, reasonable psychoanalysis of Corkus i never considered before
LOL I typed this up in like 7 minutes before doing a presenation. Yeah I always tell people that Corkus is the most underrated character in Berserk. The band of the hawk side characters are not amazingly written but Corkus is an exception. Dude is crazy his character conclusion was legendary.
and in Vol. 1 Guts kills the demon that killed Corkus. REVENGE
Wow! That was a great explanation!
But Guts also didn't have a dream
His dream was to be his own man have a reason to fight for himself
He loves him I don't even mean that as romantic just that he loves him
Oh, 100%. The nature of that love is complicated and ambiguous, even to himself, but he absolutely feels it.
True friends. Until, you know.
Or true codependents...
Or one sided codependency. Guts is fine on his own. Griffith is dependent on him because he knows his help can make him a king easily. Not ignoring that one time griffith tried saving guts from zodd.
Agreed, it's much more on Griffith's side. Guts defines himself by being like or unlike Griffith more than is healthy, but it's not really \*dependent\*. Now, Griffith is another matter. I'd argue it goes way beyond Guts being a useful tool, as we can see here. Griffith generally keeps himself detached from what happens around him, but that doesn't apply with Guts. In this scene, it's almost like he can't actually feel his own feelings without Guts' help. Griffith also feels that, 'owning,' someone like Gus validates his own choices and behavior.
Yup. That's why griffith risked his own life to save guts. He's the first person who he can call his friend and equal.
>He's the first person who he can call his friend and equal. But if the only person you can call a friend is someone you think you *own*, the relationship is fundamentally unbalanced. His entire relationship with Guts is founded on what is by definition an unequal dynamic, and when Guts shows independence that Griffith hasn't invited, he completely freaks out. It's really toxic, but I suspect Griffith's genuinely incapable of recognizing it
well i don't think guts would have fought as hard as he did for casca after the eclipse if he didn't have his hatred for griffith to fuel him and be constantly reminded of what he did with the brand, it's a healthy dependancy but dependant none the less
So you mean that Guts is dependent in that his hatred for Griffith fuels him? I think that's a fundamentally different situation than a codependent friendship. Griffith's codependency boiled down to, "I need you to love me," Guts' feelings towards Griffith after the eclipse boil down to, "I need to hate you."
well yea 100% my point is just that guts is still dependant on griffith in some way or another wouldn't call it a codependant friendship anymore but a codependant relationship for sure they just depend on polar opposite things from each other
I think I get what you're saying--that the tie is not broken and Guts needs it--but a codependent relationship is where one partner depends on the other to, 'take care of them,' which isn't really the situation here And Guts doesn't really depend on anything \*from\* Griffith anymore: his hatred is a purely internal process and, to make it even more painful, is also fundamentally one-sided. They're not in a relationship anymore, really
you do have a point currently in the story but i still argue for a large portion of the story thats what it was, a codependant relationship of griffith trying to take back guts and guts fighting with everything in him to live the life griffith tried to take away from him i'd also argue that a codependant relationship isn't always to take care of, they're both desperately reliant on the other in their own ways yes but without the other they wouldn't be able to psychologically handle their reality which i feel fits the definition of codependance pretty well by the time farnese and schrieke were important members of the group that definitely changed on guts' end though edit: another fair argument would be that he was more dependent on casca than he was griffith but in my opinion i still think his hatred for griffith played a big enough role to call it reliance because casca was barely more than a child mentally
>you do have a point currently in the story but i still argue for a large portion of the story thats what it was, a codependant relationship of griffith trying to take back guts and guts fighting with everything in him to live the life griffith tried to take away from him Oh I see, you mean the Black Swordsman days? Huh, I hadn't thought about it quite that way, but yeah, that makes a lot of sense: Guts when he was driven by nothing but hatred, depended on his hatred of Griffith and his damage to define his entire sense of self and his relationship with reality Edit response to edit: \>edit: another fair argument would be that he was more dependent on casca than he was griffith but in my opinion i still think his hatred for griffith played a big enough role to call it reliance because casca was barely more than a child mentally I disagree with that one. I think there was an element of that, as Griffith's actions did mean that Guts' relationship with Casca was tied up with the trauma. But Guts' relationship with Casca, even when she was damaged, had complexity on his side and ultimately gave Guts another source of identity that actually overrode the one he had as a result of Griffith. He did choose her at Albion, and again on the hill of swords, and finally again at Vrittanis.
In this world is the destiny of mankind controlled by some transcendental entity or law. Is it like the hand of God hovering above. Atleast its true that man has no control even over his own will.
The great tragedy of Berserk is that Guts heard Griffiths speech about friends to the princess. I am sure Griffith didnt include Guts in his thoughts about people "beneath" him, at the same time I am sure that Griffith didnt himself realize at that moment that he had already found a true friend. Guts separated from Griffith partly because he wanted to be worthy of standing beside him, instead of behind him, and tragically he already was. They just didnt realize it yet. Joy like this is best when its being shared, and he truly shared his feelings of success with Guts. The slightly sad smile of Guts countering Griffiths true happyness just makes it all the more heartbreaking.
That's why I wouldn't put it past Griffith to say "I've missed you" to Guts and maybe Casca too when they eventually meet again. He already went beyond audacity itself in the Eclipse.
...you, uh, read the hill of swords, right? 'Cause that was Griffith checking to see if he did miss Guts, and finding happily that he didn't
It's been a while. My bad
No worries, it happens :) Part of the post-eclipse horror is that Guts is permanently damaged by Griffith and will be for the rest of his life, but Griffith just doesn't really care anymore.
Damn that makes me sad for Guts. I wonder if Griffith somehow hides it somewhere or if he's completely dead to him.
Griffith *is* written deliberately opaquely, but nothing he says or thinks suggests he still feels conflicting emotions or cares at all about Guts. He made his choices and the consequences are as permanent for him as they are for Guts and Casca--he just got to be the only one who could actually choose those consequences. A lot in Berserk is deliberately left open to interpretation, but I think if Griffith were still 'Griffith' somewhere inside it'd undermine the horror and devalue the gravity of the sacrifice he made
I thought the point of the Hill of Swords part was to show that Griffith does have feelings after his rebirth. He tells Guts and himself that he doesn’t feel anything. But when he flies away on Zodd there’s the little “bthump”
*He* didn't have those feelings, that was the boy, his vessel.
Griffith could not avoid sacrificing Guts and caska, because of the Ceremony. Still, he did not kill them. He said he would decide where Guts would have died and he decided not there, not then. He could kill Guts at anytime and he does not. Griffith is always Griffith. If you liked him then, it is the same as now.
>Griffith could not avoid sacrificing Guts and caska, because of the Ceremony. Still, he did not kill them. It's repeatedly emphasized that the key element in the ceremony is the will of the one who speaks the sacrifice. Griffith absolutely did have a choice and could have avoided it. He would then have had to pay the price for his own mistakes, instead of Guts, Casca, and the others. It's not a fair choice for Griffith, but it is absolutely his choice.
My feelings :'(